When did BMA A320 pilots get an ATC licence????
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When did BMA A320 pilots get an ATC licence????
Twice in 2 days BMA A320 monkeys have questioned my use of speed in Scottish Airspace. When did they start issuing ATC licences with you Bus licence???? Its called a Radar CONTROL Service for a reason.
Can you see the sequence for Edinburgh from FL260 and 80 miles?????? If so save my company(and we are part of the airline group) my wages and just separate from the air.
Stop Peeing us off and let us do our job.....Do you ask about speed when going into Bovingdon at 0900????
At least I know a good MOR when I see one.
Love and kisses,
Sheep out
Can you see the sequence for Edinburgh from FL260 and 80 miles?????? If so save my company(and we are part of the airline group) my wages and just separate from the air.
Stop Peeing us off and let us do our job.....Do you ask about speed when going into Bovingdon at 0900????
At least I know a good MOR when I see one.
Love and kisses,
Sheep out
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Just be thankful you don't have any Loco airlines badgering you when you are doing ground and it's really busy. The urge to tell them to F**K OFF!!! is absolutely huge when they tell you that the one just pushing can pull forward again to let them push as well, despite it will delay the other A/C by the same amount of time and OH ignore the inbound as well!!!! When they do what we tell them, when we tell then they can join until then just do what you are told!!!
Sitting in a darkened room now.
Sitting in a darkened room now.
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I am onside with danceswithsheep regarding this issue. In the past year ( twice in the past 2 days)there have been 3 or 4 instances of pilots getting REALLY shirty on the frequency when being asked, no scratch that, TOLD to reduce speed. Every single time it has been British Midland Airbus pilots. Actually I'm kind of hoping that it has been the same pilot on all occasions otherwise there are several of them working for Midland who have an attitude towards ATC that is very detrimental to safety. The one yesterday phoned and spoke to my colleague who he had berated on the frequency and proceeded to explain that because he was transferred first from the previous sector then he should have been ahead of the Easyjet blah blah...we can do 340knots blah blah...we were held on the ground at Heathrow for 40 minutes blah blah etc.
My colleague had commited the terrible crime of slowing this king of the skies down to the crawling speed of 300knots,hardly excessive.
The Scottish TMA, regardless of what some pilots think, is a pretty busy bit of airspace these days,and you will get slowed down very early sometimes. This however is no excuse for questioning the controller and undermining his authority and control of the sector. How would you like it if a tower controller piped up half way through your take off roll to impolitely question how much rudder you were applying-you'd feel like telling them to f£$% off and stop telling you how to do your job.It feels exactly the same on the other side of the mike if you question what I'm doing. By all means say something if you feel safety is compromised but for chrissakes if I slow you down don't come back with abuse or smart arse replies, it helps no-one. The feeling about this is running quite deep on my watch at Scottish just now so I'm afraid that because of one or two moronic individuals the rest of you British Midland Airbus bods can pretty much forget about early turns, direct routes or high speed.
Sort it out BMA, everyone who is either on the frequency or listening to it hears this sh!t and it does you no favours,unsafe and unproffesional.
My colleague had commited the terrible crime of slowing this king of the skies down to the crawling speed of 300knots,hardly excessive.
The Scottish TMA, regardless of what some pilots think, is a pretty busy bit of airspace these days,and you will get slowed down very early sometimes. This however is no excuse for questioning the controller and undermining his authority and control of the sector. How would you like it if a tower controller piped up half way through your take off roll to impolitely question how much rudder you were applying-you'd feel like telling them to f£$% off and stop telling you how to do your job.It feels exactly the same on the other side of the mike if you question what I'm doing. By all means say something if you feel safety is compromised but for chrissakes if I slow you down don't come back with abuse or smart arse replies, it helps no-one. The feeling about this is running quite deep on my watch at Scottish just now so I'm afraid that because of one or two moronic individuals the rest of you British Midland Airbus bods can pretty much forget about early turns, direct routes or high speed.
Sort it out BMA, everyone who is either on the frequency or listening to it hears this sh!t and it does you no favours,unsafe and unproffesional.
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Scott,
i think the answer here will be the same, When my thinking time is taken up with stupid questioning, then safety is compromised. No-one is more important than anyone else and do these certain pilots believe its going to get better by questioning us????
BMA, I have nothing against you but if its neck and neck and a throw of the coin...................................................you have a guess.
PS.........BMA........would you like me to tell you when to put the gear down????????????????????????????FU
kwits
i think the answer here will be the same, When my thinking time is taken up with stupid questioning, then safety is compromised. No-one is more important than anyone else and do these certain pilots believe its going to get better by questioning us????
BMA, I have nothing against you but if its neck and neck and a throw of the coin...................................................you have a guess.
PS.........BMA........would you like me to tell you when to put the gear down????????????????????????????FU
kwits
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Would these guys benefit from a liaison visit to ATC ???
In my experience not enough pilots come to see the problems
ATC have. As said silly questions then arise which can and do compromise safety. Having said this the majority of pilots appear to really understand the problems ATC can have but just like Fam flights these days nobody is getting very many of either ????
In my experience not enough pilots come to see the problems
ATC have. As said silly questions then arise which can and do compromise safety. Having said this the majority of pilots appear to really understand the problems ATC can have but just like Fam flights these days nobody is getting very many of either ????
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An old colleague of mine from yesteryear, now departed to that great tower in the sky, Paddy Jennings, had a wonderful response when pilots tried to do the ATC. In his soft Irish accent he would say, "You just fly your aeroplane Sorr, and I'll control the traffic and we'll get on just fine". A gentleman if ever there was one.
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Had a similar problem a while ago with a BMA airbus inbound to PH, the captain thought it was his divine "wright" to question the sequence into Glasgow from TLA sector and then complain to me on radar about slowing him down again.
The Glasgow based crews are generally excellent and I've never had problems with them since they actually seem to understand the problems that controllers in the Scottish TMA have.
There is a "wright" way of doing things (especially if you're Heathrow based and have a chip on your shoulder the size of Ben Lomond) and then there's the ATC way of doing things.
When I'm working, the ATC way wins every time.
Always the option of saying "OK keep high speed and expect to hold at LANAK / TWEED" and a quick call to PF / PH
The Glasgow based crews are generally excellent and I've never had problems with them since they actually seem to understand the problems that controllers in the Scottish TMA have.
There is a "wright" way of doing things (especially if you're Heathrow based and have a chip on your shoulder the size of Ben Lomond) and then there's the ATC way of doing things.
When I'm working, the ATC way wins every time.
Always the option of saying "OK keep high speed and expect to hold at LANAK / TWEED" and a quick call to PF / PH
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Chatting with colleagues, it seems this type of unfortunate exchange is getting more frequent, perhaps as ever more pressure is put on aircrews for punctuality and cost savings.
Just one from the past week:
"Tower, ABCxxx with you holding short at N4E"
"ABCxxx, roger, hold short of runway 09R, I will call you back"
"We can keep it moving if you'd like"
"ABCxxx, negative, hold short of runway 09R"
"We'll be really quick"
"ABCxxx, negative, read back hold short of runway 09R"
The only thing we can do is CA4114 it, and/or highlight the individual callsigns and dates to the airlines' ATC liaison.
Just one from the past week:
"Tower, ABCxxx with you holding short at N4E"
"ABCxxx, roger, hold short of runway 09R, I will call you back"
"We can keep it moving if you'd like"
"ABCxxx, negative, hold short of runway 09R"
"We'll be really quick"
"ABCxxx, negative, read back hold short of runway 09R"
The only thing we can do is CA4114 it, and/or highlight the individual callsigns and dates to the airlines' ATC liaison.
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I have the same feeling: For the past months, pilots ask more often to go faster or to shorten manouvering. Transavias are a good example of them, and also Easy Jet´s Airbus 319s (wich I think come from another company). Do Iberia and Spanair behave so "speedy" when they fly outside Spain. Sorry, no foreign on the job training 
Á.
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Sounds like yet another classic example of flight crew using TCAS as a pseudo radar and making their own judgements based on what they see. I suppose the next thing will be that BMA Airbus crews will be giving identification turns to other aircraft so that they can see who is ahead of them in the queue!
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It's only going to get worse with ADS-B in. Over here in sleepy hollow every second aircraft does econ descent as company policy, so 265K or 285K there abouts is the norm, pilots actually don't mind if we say go faster, go figure!
Once had a pilot "berate" me for making him number two to major competition aircraft, but in fact he was number 2 in a sequence of 8, the opposite company bus behind was still number 3, but far enough behind to go untouched, he thought a vector and speed made him lose the race…
A good one from recently retired colleague:
"Can we slow down instead of holding?"
"Affirm, reduce to zero knots for six minutes"
Once had a pilot "berate" me for making him number two to major competition aircraft, but in fact he was number 2 in a sequence of 8, the opposite company bus behind was still number 3, but far enough behind to go untouched, he thought a vector and speed made him lose the race…
A good one from recently retired colleague:
"Can we slow down instead of holding?"
"Affirm, reduce to zero knots for six minutes"
Last edited by SM4 Pirate; 21st Mar 2006 at 06:25.
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I'm a TC Controller, I have never had any problem from any aircraft questioning speeds given. In my opinion BMA are very good to work with. The same applies to all the 'others', we ask for something and we normally get it.
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Over+Out... congrats, seems your experience is rare (not solely with BMI I hasten to add).
It really p's me off when pilot's push for non-standard procedures, question my decisions (unless safety is compromised)... It is distracting, interupts train-of-thought and therefore hazardous. Pilot's would react differently if the boot was on the other foot that's for sure? I am confident that if an incident ocurred, after such badgering, the pilot would be the last to stand up and say "it was my fault, I was unduly pressurising the Controller", rather it would be a case of "I was simply doing as I was cleared..."
(PS: I have hearsay evidence of pilots from a major cut-price airline, beejabers, acknowledging the reduce speed call but doing nothing about it. When later challenged the pilot said he had had reduced speed, until told ATC can see their speed and they had clearly NOT slowed down... but that's another problem?)
It really p's me off when pilot's push for non-standard procedures, question my decisions (unless safety is compromised)... It is distracting, interupts train-of-thought and therefore hazardous. Pilot's would react differently if the boot was on the other foot that's for sure? I am confident that if an incident ocurred, after such badgering, the pilot would be the last to stand up and say "it was my fault, I was unduly pressurising the Controller", rather it would be a case of "I was simply doing as I was cleared..."
(PS: I have hearsay evidence of pilots from a major cut-price airline, beejabers, acknowledging the reduce speed call but doing nothing about it. When later challenged the pilot said he had had reduced speed, until told ATC can see their speed and they had clearly NOT slowed down... but that's another problem?)
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DWS or whoever is interested.
I’m one of the bmi “monkeys” based at GLA and live near the centre. Can I suggest a cup of coffee (or beer) for an exchange of views and information I can feed back to the rest of the Troop.
Please PM me.
MR
I’m one of the bmi “monkeys” based at GLA and live near the centre. Can I suggest a cup of coffee (or beer) for an exchange of views and information I can feed back to the rest of the Troop.
Please PM me.
MR
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over and out
I also work TC and have never had pilots query speeds, tho I have had them ask in a slightly questioning tone if the aircraft that has been flying parallel to them for the past 40 miles is being dropped because it is going to go ahead of him. (A bit of speed control earlier on would help... hint hint)
A short sharp 'yes' usually shuts them up. there is not usually r/t time to go into a convoluted explanation and also, it sounds then as if trying to justify your actions.
What does p s me off is the increasing number of A/C that give an intial call on climbout of "London XYZ123, hello"!!
I also work TC and have never had pilots query speeds, tho I have had them ask in a slightly questioning tone if the aircraft that has been flying parallel to them for the past 40 miles is being dropped because it is going to go ahead of him. (A bit of speed control earlier on would help... hint hint)
A short sharp 'yes' usually shuts them up. there is not usually r/t time to go into a convoluted explanation and also, it sounds then as if trying to justify your actions.
What does p
s me off is the increasing number of A/C that give an intial call on climbout of "London XYZ123, hello"!!
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Over + out & ukatco 535, I'm glad you confirmed what i suspected. Pilots know for a fact that TC airspace is packed a lot of the time so would be foolish to question your use of speed control.Unfortunately they seem to think that they can make up time by blazing through the "sleepy" Scottish TMA at whatever speed they like.
Pilots , even if you are number two I may have to slow you down, quite often when you call me at Margo now you are closer to number twenty-so don't even think about questioning my speed control. I just wish I was unprofessional enough to allow the "cheeky buggers" to spin around the hold until I had finished working the rest of the traffic whose pilots understand that I'm busy, and that I'm not just there to ruin there whole day.
Pilots , even if you are number two I may have to slow you down, quite often when you call me at Margo now you are closer to number twenty-so don't even think about questioning my speed control. I just wish I was unprofessional enough to allow the "cheeky buggers" to spin around the hold until I had finished working the rest of the traffic whose pilots understand that I'm busy, and that I'm not just there to ruin there whole day.