Zurich UAC transfer to Geneva UAC postponed.

[flowman]

The planned transfer of control of Zurich upper airspace to Geneva UAC has been postponed due to regulatory clearance being witheld.
This was supposed to occur tonight and has now been postponed until at least the 28th March.
Unfortunately all the controllers who are supposed to work the Zurich airspace are currently in Geneva having been transferred there in preparation for the move. They will now have to return to Zurich as rapidly as possible to man the sectors tomorrow (Thursday 16th March).
This means that there will be capacity reductions of 30% in Zurich upper sectors and 20% in the lower sectors until a solution can be found to the whole mess.
There could be fairly serious delays in that whole region until capacities are increased.
I'm amazed how something like this can happen! Anyone from CH care to add anything?

[aeropers]

It's just 'situation normal' at the most expensive, incompetent, arrogant air traffic control organisation with the world's worst safety record, namely Skyguide.

They now operate from a massive palace on Dubendorf airfield - that might give a hint as to the cause of the problem: the Swiss have uniquely decided to coordinate civil and military control in one organisation in a cynical attempt to protect the Skyguide dinosaur from the more logical solution, which would be to hand over Swiss airspace to an enlarged Maastricht/Frankfurt/Milan/Marseille.

[what_goes_up]

And again aeropers talks about something he doesn't have a clue. Is this symptomatic? Just beacause you drive a plane doesn't mean you know about ATC!
BTW: Form the outside would be a far more logical solution to move Swiss's operation to Lufthansa. Would you want that?

[AN2 Driver]

Hi Flowman,

just had a look at the ANM, not a pretty sight indeed. I rekon you have the 20/30% reductions from your internal channels? If so, ugly doesn't come close. :uhoh:

Unfortunately all the controllers who are supposed to work the Zurich airspace are currently in Geneva having been transferred there in preparation for the move. They will now have to return to Zurich as rapidly as possible to man the sectors tomorrow (Thursday 16th March).


As it's a mere 3 hour drive/3:30 train trip airport to airport and the decision seems to have been taken somewhere early this afternoon, that positioning should be not too much of a problem... Made the trip many times myself, even commuting many moons ago, it's teidious but feasible. Some hotels are gonna have a lot of extra business tough.


I'm amazed how something like this can happen! Anyone from CH care to add anything?


Seems to have come as a total surprise :eek: to all involved. No details knows so far at this end other than the go ahead for the move by the Swiss authorities has not been granted as expected. What the reason for this is is unknown so far but they better be good. Clearly, the pieces of this need to be picked up and put in order before things will get back to normal.

After the events which have shaken this country's civil aviation since 2001, it appears to me that many things are proceeding with much more caution than in the old days. This can be a good thing if there is a viable reason behind it, but it can also be fairly paralyzing at times. The one thing I would like to know at this stage is why the go/no go decision had to be left this late?

Best, AN2 Driver

@aeropers

Your track record is amazing. 3 posts and 3 total and utter rants without anything contributing to the thread.... you must be really really frustrated, or what is your agenda here?

Well, I've got news for you. Many people are frustrated here over the developments of the last years, but most of us are trying to cope to the best of our possibilities and abilities. Yet I am pretty darn sure that a lot of the current situation (in the post 2001 Swiss Aviation in general, not particularly this incident) has to do with the always present negativism that is plaguing this country and it's aviation environment since ever I can think back. Amongst other things it cost us both national carriers. If you want to make an example of this attitude, you are doing a good job. Reading your posts, at least nobody needs to wonder anymore how that happened :mad: .

I've asked you before, after post no2, if the organisation you chose as your forum nic is aware and condoning what you are :yuk: out here? Knowing quite a few of it's members I rather doubt it. In fact, I wonder if you are trying to make it look as if... but then again, who knows... :confused:

[flowman]

Thanks for that AN2 driver.
I did not realise it was as close as three hours by car. Still a hell of a commute though!
The hotel bill will be massive.
Here's hoping they sort out the manning problem quickly.
Problem is Maastricht have also reduced their capacities because of new route structures in Germany, that means the offload routes will also be producing delays. I have a feeling tomorrow will not be much fun

[AN2 Driver]

Thanks for that AN2 driver.
I did not realise it was as close as three hours by car. Still a hell of a commute though!
The hotel bill will be massive.
Here's hoping they sort out the manning problem quickly.
Problem is Maastricht have also reduced their capacities because of new route structures in Germany, that means the offload routes will also be producing delays. I have a feeling tomorrow will not be much fun

Flowman,

what I have heard in the grapevine here is that the ANM note seems more of a precautionary nature given that many people need to take a deep breath and go "right, well, ok, now then...." back to what everyone has been used to for the rememberable past. The airports themselves do not seem overly concerned, neither are ops people of some operators I milked for information :) . Of course, the combination with the Maastricht restriction might not be helpful.

It's been a time since I have been at the consumer end of CFMU but I do recall contact with you guys always as a very helpful and positive experience. I am sure you guys will do your best as you always do. Sadly I never got the chance to visit you guys while I still had the possibility...

Best regards
AN2 Driver

[F4F]

As a user (or shall I use the word "customer") of the Swiss ATC services, I gotta say that I'm not overly impressed.
Compared to what we see around the world, the worst; well most of Africa, most of the Far East. Closer to dear ol'Europe, the messy friendliness of the Italian, the favoritism of Spain, etc.
Now the best; IMHO, in Britain, seconded by Germany, the Netherlands and some of their American counterparts.
Skyguide? Well, without resorting to the wording as used by "aeropest", they have to end up in between or in the first group: Ridiculous spacings, rigid as can be, uncoordinated efforts, high costs (no wonder, plenty vacation, plenty wages, cosy retirement at 55), inefficient, and last but not least, the "we are the best" attitude that was so dear to Swissair and remains present within most of LH South :yuk:
To sum it up, a real dinosaur...

On the other hand, who are we pilots to judge? Just trained monkeys, pushing some knobs, responding to some predefined situation, reading checklists... Vastly overpaid and underworked, served coffee and sweets by some of the most attractive females... We sure can't have a clue as how enduring and challenging ATC work is...
We are just left do the same as you gals and guys: ADMIRE :E

P.S.
This little devil is sooo cute!

[AN2 Driver]

Skyguide? Well, without resorting to the wording as used by "aeropest", they have to end up in between or in the first group: Ridiculous spacings, rigid as can be, uncoordinated efforts, high costs (no wonder, plenty vacation, plenty wages, cosy retirement at 55), inefficient, and last but not least, the "we are the best" attitude that was so dear to Swissair and remains present within most of LH South :yuk:
To sum it up, a real dinosaur...


Please keep in mind when looking at things like spacing and rigitity that much of this is forced upon them by laws and regulations that are politic reactions to isolated incidents and which don't make the least of sense. There have been some incidents in recent years which were almost 100% the consequence of the geographical and political setup of Swiss airports or other problems outside the sphere of ATC themselves which resulted in the authorities clamping down on some previously well established and tested operating patterns. Add in a runway concept dictated purely by politics, including the German imposed overflight ban at certain times, and you got a dog's breakfast that will frustrate and push to the limit even the most patient people.

I won't say that there is all very much ok with them, there is a lot which could do with improvement, but working in such a politically infested environment must have some perks which may well result in an outside picture that does not entirely coincide with what people could be doing or would be doing given the chance.

Best regards
AN2 driver.

[Lon More]

The reason for the changes at the same time, Switzerland, Germany Netherlands, UK, etc., is that it is an AIRAC (http://www.eurocontrol.int/aim/gallery/content/public/pdf/airac.pdf) date
Looks like being an interesting day.

[N380UA]

Aeropers

On your first post I thought you were genuine. Now I know that your genuine… a genuine numb nut! Nothing but a little frustrated troll that couldn’t cut in this business. Go fly a kite!

So much for that.

Et-al

As for the subject at hand, if the regulator says you aint going, you just aint going! Regardless if you call your self Skyguide, DFS, AENA or whatever. The safety record is of no interest in this case. Yes, the Swiss airspace has gotten a bit more rigid since the accident, but I can somewhat understand that. I wonder how rigid and ridiculous DFS will see the German airspace after a similar accident.. god forbid! And while on the subject, its not like German controllers have any worse conditions.

Skyguide had everything ready to go for the transition of the UAC. The regulator pulled the breaks in the last minute. I fail to see how this is a Skyguide generated problem.

[flowman]

N380UA

Yes, the regulator put the brakes on the whole move, but I fail to see how you can say that it is nothing to do with Skyguide. Surely the regulator is there to assess whether what Skyguide has put in place is acceptable and safe. If his findings are that it is not prudent to proceed then that shows poor preparation by Skyguide.
The regulator must have been involved well before now and his requirements must have been known before last night. It would bevery poor project management if he was not.
If you fail your medical do you blame the doctor?

[ZRH]

Rumour has it that the staff at the FOCA were unable to peruse the flood of documents submitted by skyguide in time for the launch of the UAC. They require a further 10-12 office days to do so.
Further rumours abound that the seemingly strong anti-UAC lobby has had their lawyers petition the FOCA to put the brakes on this project. For safety reasons.....

[flowman]

Zurich capacities have just been put back to normal.
So well done to the controllers who have come up with the goods despite what must have been a hectic 24 hours. :ok:

[N380UA]

flowman

my understanding is that Skyguide was on top of it but the regulator was dragging his feet. Which, if you ever had anything to do with the Swiss CAA, is not surprising really. So I'd side with ZRH on this one.

[what_goes_up]

Half and half guys. As of my information FOCA (CAA) wanted a smooth run of the new computer system for at least 15 days (please correct me as this period might not be right). Skyguide did not acheive this so the change had to be stopped. But I must say that this information is about two weeks old. so it might well be obsolete.

[Bokkenrijder]

Does this mean that once this transfer is complete, we won´t get these ridiculous frequency changes every 2000 feet/2 minutes whilst descending towards GVA?

Swiss efficiency my @ss! :yuk:

[AES]

Sir,

Thanks for the "calm" explanation.

Re your:
QUOTE: @aeropers

Your track record is amazing. 3 posts and 3 total and utter rants without anything contributing to the thread.... you must be really really frustrated, or what is your agenda here?

Well, I've got news for you. Many people are frustrated here over the developments of the last years, but most of us are trying to cope to the best of our possibilities and abilities. Yet I am pretty darn sure that a lot of the current situation (in the post 2001 Swiss Aviation in general, not particularly this incident) has to do with the always present negativism that is plaguing this country and it's aviation environment since ever I can think back. Amongst other things it cost us both national carriers. If you want to make an example of this attitude, you are doing a good job. Reading your posts, at least nobody needs to wonder anymore how that happened :mad: .

I've asked you before, after post no2, if the organisation you chose as your forum nic is aware and condoning what you are :yuk: out here? Knowing quite a few of it's members I rather doubt it. In fact, I wonder if you are trying to make it look as if... but then again, who knows... :confused:
UNQUOTE:

As one of many people both personally and professionally affected by many of the "happenings" here in CH since 2001 I could not agree more with your comments.

What I find particularly disturbing is the fact that this person "aeropers" is, as you have pointed out, using the name of an official organisation in Switzerland. This could have potentially bad consequences for aviation in Switzerland (as just 1 example, if a jounalist got hold of his posts and "thought" they represented the official line of this organisation).

I certainly do not object to anyone posting what I regard as "bunkum" here, but wonder if in a special case like this the Moderator/s cannot do something to change this idiot's nic.

Krgds
AES

[Kalium Chloride]

as just 1 example, if a jounalist got hold of his posts and "thought" they represented the official line of this organisation

Yes, because we journalists are that dumb...only last week I was thinking that BA Baracus must work for the world's favourite airline. :hmm:

[AN2 Driver]

Sir,

Thanks for the "calm" explanation.


As one of many people both personally and professionally affected by many of the "happenings" here in CH since 2001 I could not agree more with your comments.


Welcome to that particular club... almost calls for a bash at some stage to get the swiss pprune crowd together....


What I find particularly disturbing is the fact that this person "aeropers" is, as you have pointed out, using the name of an official organisation in Switzerland. This could have potentially bad consequences for aviation in Switzerland (as just 1 example, if a jounalist got hold of his posts and "thought" they represented the official line of this organisation).

I certainly do not object to anyone posting what I regard as "bunkum" here, but wonder if in a special case like this the Moderator/s cannot do something to change this idiot's nic.

Krgds
AES

Fully agreed. Even tough I guess most journos here would see through that particular thing unless they have the same agenda (some do) in which case it won't matter much. With all the garbage that has been posted around this here place, quite a few have made up their minds ages ago.

Nevertheless, I have a feeling that the organisation the guy uses as his nic would have to be the ones getting active to put this character into his place.

Best regards
An2 Driver

[ZRH]

Does this mean that once this transfer is complete, we won´t get these ridiculous frequency changes every 2000 feet/2 minutes whilst descending towards GVA?


Wow. That must be a terrible amount of pressure. Frequency change while descending!! Imagine trying to fly straight and level and then get a frequency change. Again, WOW!

To answer your question: Yes, with the amount of electronic coordination between the sectors that will be using the new equipment, frequency changes should be reduced considerably.

[Bokkenrijder]

Wow. That must be a terrible amount of pressure. Frequency change while descending!! Imagine trying to fly straight and level and then get a frequency change. Again, WOW! Yes, actually it is a lot of unnecessary pressure when arriving from the NE towards Geneva. You end up high on profile, in bad weather there seems to be no coordination between sectors in order to get avoidance headings and situational awereness is reduced in mountainous terrain. If really busy regions like Amsterdam, London, Paris etc can organize things much better, why can´t Switzerland? Too proud, too arrogant?

[Few Cloudy]

So where is the arrogance in Flowman's posting Aeropers?

He just put the thread here to inform people what is going on -
although it doesn't reflect well on the organisation. That is the
opposite of arrogance. I imagine, that Aeropers (the organisation) would
very much like to find out who is posting in its name in this negative way.

As for Bokkenrijder finding that things go well in Amsterdam, that
must come close to one of the worst places to fly in to. Controllers
who sound very confident and breezy as they line you up short on an ILS which has a 30kt ++ crosswind and low ceiling waiting for you and then sound hurt and surprised when you refuse or go around. Ideal runways which
can't be used due again to noise politics. A taxyway puzzle as soon as you leave the runway with an immediate frequency change. Departures
which keep you busy enough at low level to be distracting. You name it...

FC.

[aeropers]

Few - I didn't say Flowman was arrogant, I referred to Skyguide.

If you want an examlpe of their arrogance think back to their reaction after Ueberlingen.

I assure you that I am acting with the full authority of Ewiges Wegli.

On yer bike back to Peter Symonds.

[Few Cloudy]

Sorry Aeropers, I don't believe you - they don't have a death wish.

Who do you think Flowman works for?

FC.

[Chuchichäschtli]

Flowman
Be ready for the next trial. According to well informed sources, the next CTOT for UAC CH is on March 29 just before midnight.


Bokkenrijder
You said you flew into GVA from the NE, must have been in contact with Reims ACC. You were then transferred to SWISS 134.025, followed by GENEVA ARRIVAL 136.25, in busy times to GENEVA FINAL 120.8, before ending up at GENEVA TOWER 118.7… I guess this is quite a logic and highly common procedure. Over the entry point you call an ACC-Sector, then APPROACH and finally the TOWER. So what is wrong or even arrogant about that??
Do you remember the good old PARTA-SPR routing?? So better don’t complain about today’s comfortable transitions with plenty of time for frequency changes. If you stick to these and don’t ask for shortcuts, you won’t be too high and there will be time enough to enjoy and become perfectly aware of what we call “hills” :rolleyes: .

[flowman]

This is turning into a bit of a slanging match better suited to Jet Blast than Rumours and News. There is plenty of scope for healthy and informative debate so why don't we stick to that before the mods are forced to close the thread down.
Bokkenrijder: Swiss airspace has traditionally been what we refer to as vertically sectorised. i.e. instead of the sectors being divided like fields on a map they are divided like strata that you see in a cliff face. This is out of necessity due to the very high amount of overflying traffic. Maastricht have a similar system. It means less frequency changes and co-ordination for the overflights but, sadly for you, more frequency changes when climbing or descending into/out of swiss aerodromes.
The new sectors are split at 355, 325, 285 and 245. So not quite every 2000'. Perhaps you will have to do less twiddling with your knobs in future:ok:

[Guy D'ageradar]

Thanks flowman for returning us all to sanity.

I think what Bokkenrijder is referring to is more likely an arrival via G5 (Bern-Zurich). As one of those "guilty" TMA/approach controllers at LSGG I can assure you that whenever possible, co-ordination is effected to avoid unnecessary frequency changes.

The fact is, as flowman said, the airspace is divided vertically and as a result, you have to cross a number of sectors while in descent. If it wasn't so, you'd have to do the same horizontally anyway so no win there. The upper sectors (through which all said freq changes occur) ARE very busy. What would you prefer, fewer frequency changes but an overloaded sector?

Now on to the weather. Like a large number of pilots, I'm sure that you actually have very little knowledge of the amount of co-ordination that goes on on your behalf. If you're arriving LSGG during the day from the direction of Zurich and, for example, start avoiding on first call to the geneva TMA sector(128.9), we first have to call the military as they tend to be a bit twitchy about aircraft disappearing off these days! (military training areas on BOTH sides of the airway). Then we have to call the Zurich upper sector, whose airspace you're still in (IF you're turning left, you're head on to their arrivals in descent). Then we have to call the Geneva upper sector, whose airspace you'll be descending through but not in contact with. Finally, this also has to be arranged with approach who may or may not have their own requirements. All the while, of course, taking terrain clearance into account (how many 16,000 ft mountains to complicate matters around Heathrow/Amsterdam/Paris) as well as our other traffic. Believe me, we don't have much time to sit around with our thumbs in warm, dark places when there's weather about.

While I don't for a second claim that all is peachy here - the vast majority of my colleagues are highly competent and far more accommodating than you think (360 around the Matterhorn anyone?).

Rant mode off. See you at 7. am.

Bon Soirée!

[Spuds McKenzie]

Well, guys, looks like we gonna have to ask Aeropers (the association that is) about that "full authority" thing, aeropers (the ill-informed tw*t that is) is claiming to have...
FYI Skyuide is not operating from Dübendorf (as yet).

[Guy D'ageradar]

And now for the next installment.....refused by OFAC....put off until autumn at the earliest:eek:

[fritzleuenberger]

I assure you that I am acting with the full authority of Ewiges Wegli.


....he is most probably the president of aeropers! :\

[gofer]

Fritz, actually that is an aliby for "Heiliges Bimbam" ;)

[ZRH]

And now for the next installment.....refused by OFAC....put off until autumn at the earliest

Yeah, nice one. 45 odd ATCOs got themselves a place to stay in Geneva, but have to continue working in Zurich, living in hotels and only getting to see their little "holiday flat" when its their day off after having travelled right accross Switzerland just to get home. And that'll be the setup until further notice.
The future certainly is bright. Lots of miles to be collected on the "miles and more" programme.

[flowman]

I see Geneva capacities were reduced by 20% today "due to ATCOs protest against delayed UAC implementation" it says 'ere.
Can't say I blame them.

[aeropers]

The NZZ, Switzerlands most respected newspaper, has today published a report by the BAZL (Swiss CAA) that contains scathing criticism of 'Skyguide' - "the most expensive, incompetent, arrogant air traffic control organisation with the world's worst safety record" - as I said earlier in this thread.

It's almost entirely negative and uses extraordinarily severe language for the normally compromise-based Swiss establishment, such as:

'Complete chaos'
'Massive criticism'
'Severe negligence'
'Inefficient preparation'
'Miserable standard'
'Inadequate training'
'No confidence'
'No improvement initiative or culture'
'25 million Francs wasted'

The report concerns not only the planned and now indefinitely postponed upper airspace transfer but the entire organisation, management and culture.

Just another chapter in the miserable history of civil aviation in Switzerland over the past 10 years...

[AN2 Driver]

Just another chapter in the miserable history of civil aviation in Switzerland over the past 10 years...

For the first time I tend to agree with you, on that very sentence. I have really not seen any country self-destruct it's aviation culture to the extent it happened here in the last 10 years.

Have to admit tough that much of this also is a consequence of the Swiss culture of negativism and backstabbing which has done a lot to contribute to the current mess. Leave the rest to politicians and voilà!

Bl**dy disgrace is the only expression that comes to mind.

[Few Cloudy]

The report is here in German.
I didn't read anything about arrogance or having the world's worst
safety record, however.
FC.

[AN2 Driver]

The report is here in German.
I didn't read anything about arrogance or having the world's worst
safety record, however.
FC.

Its not there. Because it's not true either.

Must say, knowing the NZZ and their rep, which is a sight better than most of the Swiss Press, the article is very strongly worded. I was appalled to read some of the stuff in there.

On the day to day basis, I see no reason however to feel unsave or being treated arrogantly by those at the front. Hence my rather sharp comments on the original allegations.

[ettore]

Hi,
Since you read german, take a look at the Investigation Report released today on the total ATC-Breakdown in ZRH on Nov. 11th. '03 due to a reckless handling of an IT-Problem. It's not issued by a newspaper whatsoever, but by the Federal Aircraft Accident Bureau and its quite sharp too : http://www.bfu.admin.ch/de/pdf/u1887_d.pdf (link to this report also posted in the ATC Forum). An english translation should be available mid-may.
Cheers
B.

[Few Cloudy]

Hello Ettore,

Thanks for the link.

To me two important things stand out in this older case:

1. Once again it was the techies causing failures during ops time (also a not unimportant factor in the Überlingen case).

2. Most of the crews were favourably impressed with the controllers' handling of the problem. (Eine überwiegende Mehrheit der Flugbesatzungen, die zur Zeit des Radardatenausfalls mit der Flugverkehrsleitung Zürich in Verbindung standen, äusserte sich positiv über die Handhabung des Flugverkehrs durch die ATC während des Ausfalls.)

In the case which lead to this thread, it was the politicians who led to a precipitate reversal in policy. The controllers had to make the best of it.

Ask Napoleon what happens when an army has to reverse direction - cannons at the back and the cookhouse up front...

FC.

[ettore]

Here is the link to the Skyguide reply (in english) to the report on the Nov' 03 Blackout (credit to Chuchischätzeli, one of the most beautiful Swiss alias ever found on pprune, who posted it in the ATC-Forum):

http://www.skyguide.ch/en/homepage/12_04_2006_BFU_Radarblackout_en.pdf