Anxieties of spinning

[Bucket]

Folks

As a FI I ought not tho have this problem however I must confess a lack of confidence in spin entry and exit especially spins from abnormal attitudes. There must be a more deep rooted reason for this and I am undertaking some personal research in this area. There are other background domestic matters thatdo not help and overall confidence levels are not where they should be.

I have been told quite bluntly that if I cannot hack this a career in aviation is out of the question even line flying. Are there courses/infomation that you can all lead me to?

Advice and help would be much appreciated.

Ta:ugh:

[EGBKFLYER]

Well done for trying to overcome your 'problem'. Who told you that being a bit concerned about spinning will preclude you from work as a pilot? I'd like to know what they base that opinion on...

What do you mean by 'abnormal attitudes'? Inverted spins etc? Unless you have had your aeros restriction removed, why would you need to teach that sort of thing?

I would say first of all that you need to assess what is required of you. As an 'ordinary' FI, you are not likely to be doing much spinning - it's not part of the syllabus after all. If your student has a valid reason for wanting to spin, you can always pass them on to someone 'more experienced'...

Secondly, try to think about root causes - do you fear being unable to recover from a spin?, do you find the sensations unpleasant? Is it actually nothing to do with spinning and more about some other issues (since you hint at that). If you can figure out the root cause, you can formulate an action plan to change things.

[P.Pilcher]

When I learned to fly, spinning was on the syllabus and I remember being sent out to practice solo stalling and spinning as a student. Spinning used to be a hurdle for some student pilots when I became an instructor, particularly as just about all modern light aircraft were designed not to spin. To keep them spinning you had to hold in pro-spin rudder or they would just recover of their own accord! Eventually that part of the syllabus, introduced before WWII when aircraft certainly did spin with a little encouragement was rightly dropped. During all my training for my CPL, I never had to spin an aircraft or recover from same, and I doubt you will ever have to. The only sort of spinning I wouldn't like to get involved with is an inverted one as I have had no training in this recovery, but this is only a possibility if you badly mishandle a very aerobatic type of aircraft.

P.P.

[hugh flung_dung]

You need to work out what the root concern is before you can deal with it. Some possibilities include: lack of belief in your own abilities, lack of belief in the aircraft, lack of knowledge, lack of experience, and fear. These would all be dealt with by the additional training and experience that comes as part of doing an aeros course.

I'm a firm believer that an FI should be comfortable in any reasonable flight regime of which an aircraft is capable and would suggest some basic aeros experience to any pilot.

HFD

[Human Factor]

There are a few companies around which specialise in Advanced Training. I would suggest you give one of these a call and do some specialist spin training.

Bluntly speaking, you're not scared of spinning. You're scared of not recovering and this is what you need to experience more of and practice.

[Rosanna]

I would say first of all that you need to assess what is required of you. As an 'ordinary' FI, you are not likely to be doing much spinning - it's not part of the syllabus after all.

In our syllabus (an italian FTO) spin demontration is compulsory.
I think that an instructor must be able to recover the airplane from all attitudes and conditions without anxiety...

[EGBKFLYER]

Ok Rosanna - I saw that Bucket was in the UK, so I was only referring to the UK syllabus. Interesting to know some other EU countries still spin...

Playing devil's advocate a little here;) , but why would an ordinary instructor need to recover the aircraft from any attitude and condition without anxiety? Surely prevention is better than cure and the aircraft shouldn't get anywhere near a departure (which requires a recovery action). After all, we are teaching PPLs not military crew or aeros hotshots. For the folks that are teaching aeros etc, might be a different matter though.

[Rosanna]

but why would an ordinary instructor need to recover the aircraft from any attitude and condition without anxiety?

Because if you let the student fly the aircraft it may happen that he/she does something wrong. In power on stalls it's very easy to spin for example and I think that an instructor must have the skill to correct students error.

[P.Pilcher]

Rosanna - I fully agree with you - talking from the U.K. viewpoint. I suspect that in this case Bucket may not have had very good spin recovery training on his FI course or during his PPL course. I gained my confidence in the art when I was as a student sent to practice spin recovery solo. My FIC instructor (the late F.C.H. Taylor, god bless him) also was very keen on spinning - the entry to and the recovery from. Some advanced training in spin recovery techniques is needed here as suggested by Human Factor.

P.P.

[geordiejet]

Hey,
Although Im not yet an instructor, I find spins extremely unpleasent. I always had a great fear of spinning when practicing stalls, so anything to do with slow flight and the like was dreaded.

My instructor new fine well that I hated it so he broke me in gently. Doing an incipient spin, which he gradually built up. We never did a full spin, until my PPL checkride, where, as usual, I tried to recover from a stall too early, but the left wing dropped, so I began spin recovery.

My examiner asked me why I was doing that, and I told him I thought we were starting a spin. He said 'no lad, thats not a spin, this is ..................'. Needless to say, it wasn't as bad as a thought it was, in fact I was giggling, kinda like what you do on a rollercoaster :-) But I think this is because I was built up to it, and not thrown in.

Saying as I hope to instruct in the near future, I also worry about spinning, and any other 'weired' stuff, and I always think I will struggle at this aspect of training. In my defence though; the plane was 30 years old, perhaps spinning something newer would calm my nerves a bit.

I think its quite a common thing to cause anxiety; it feels awful, and I agree with an earlier post, as my fear is also not being able to recover.

[bogbeagle]

If your student is dumb enough to "inadvertently" enter a spin, I reckon that there's bog-all chance of his effecting a recovery. Spin avoidance is the way to go.

[duir]

I believe that full spinning is not compulsary on the JAA PPL. At the school I work at we demonstrate a full spin or two after the lead in lessons of slow flight-stalling 1-stalling 2 if the student wishes to see it. Perhaps a more important thing to demonstrate and then have student practice is recovery from incipient spin which is a much more likely scenario. This does not have to be entered from the most terrifying angle and aggressively when your student least expects it. Perhaps getting a good heads up on incipient entry/recoveries and increasing your handling confidence in the process may well help you over this difficulty. The first time I ever did spinning was on my FI course and it was performed with vigour which at best was exhilarating and at worst down right scary and sickly. At points I really did wonder how I would ever cope with it, but now I really look forward to it and it seems that even a 152 can bite a bit sometimes so sensible heights and airmanship is called for.

[Rosanna]

Perhaps a more important thing to demonstrate and then have student practice is recovery from incipient spin which is a much more likely scenario.

Of course students have not to learn to spin. The only purpose of this lesson is to demonstrate them prevention and recovery from this condition.

But here we were talking about flight instructors, not about students. And if a flight instructor has to demostrate a condition I suppose he/she's able to handle this situation without anxiety.

[RVR800]

Its very much an FI thing is spinning (Hectoresque!) - its regarded as important in issue revalidation and renewal of that rating

its untrue to say....

>I have been told quite bluntly that if I cannot hack this a career in aviation >is out of the question even line flying.

as its not relevant to air'line' flying - you wont be spinning an airliner:ugh:

[kookabat]

More to the point, you won't be *recovering* from a spin in an airliner!:eek:

[latedownwind]

Interesting thread for more than 1 reason.
1 It is one element of the flight envelope not often practiced even by FIs, but also the element most likely to do you damage and bite you on the ar*e if recovery is not effected properly.
2 I have heard many anecdotal stories that although there is standard spin recovery which we all demo'ed effectively during our FI training and examination there are aircraft which refuse to behave normally in terms of standard recovery- believe the RAF guys have some stories about Bulldog recovery and its not a good idea to find the aircraft you are spinning for the first time has some unexpected peculiarities-- not that any of us would go spin a new beast with a student, without some type training first!!
3 Not sure about the stresses and strains imposed on the airframe during spinning but from a structural integrity point of view, I certainly have some reservations about spinning a 40 year old airframe-and 90% of us are teaching on airframes that old- especially when you see the condition of the outside of the aircraft and wonder whether the load bearing inside conditions match !!

Always remember in my sprog PPL years, a spin demo in a Tomohawk with the intructor telling me to look over my shoulder during the spin. That empennage was twisting quite notieceably-- very unnerving!!

[hugh flung_dung]

LDW

I'm not ex-RAF but I have done a large number of spins in the Bulldog. Spin recovery is absolutely standard BUT, unlike some types, if you don't do the right things the recovery will be delayed - in that way it's an excellent spin trainer.

During the spin itself the speed is low and the wing is stalled so it's relatively low stress and airframe age is irrelevant; if the recovery is mishandled then I guess the stresses may rise at that point.

Just out of interest, why did your instructor ask you to look at the back end of a Traumahawk during the spin?

HFD

[latedownwind]

I guess cause he already knew what the tailplane was doing!! and just wanted me to witness the aerodymanic forces at the rear end!!-- hence my comment about stresses on old airframes- should have made myself clearer- wasnt so much the stresses during the spin - it was any overzealous handling during the exit that was on my mind

[Kengineer-130]

Having just done my PPL in the states, I asked my instructor to take me up and do some spins, as it was not part of the sylabus I thought it would be a good idea to see what they are like and how to recover. The first one we dropped into scared the hell out of me, as in a C-150 it almost felt inverted as it broke from the stall into the spin, but even as we were dropping out the sky, my instructor was calm as you like, showing me that the normal control inputs did nothing, then proceeded to talk through recovery as he demonstrated the procedure. We went back up and did another one, with me flying, but he kept his hands and feet on the controls just to stay safe, then after that I did 4 more, 2 with me entering and recovering myself, one in each direction, then 2 with my instructor entering, and he made me close my eyes and put my head on my shoulder as we stalled, so when I had to recover I had to identify the direction of the spin and orientate myself.

I think that spins should be part of the sylabus, as it gave me so much more confidence in the handling and recovery of the aircraft. I think that a calm and confident instrutor is vital though, as I wouldn't have been happy spinning with someone who didn't really want to do it. When I get a chance, I am going to go to kemble and take a spin course with ultimate high, as they are all ex RAF instrucors, and you can never have enough training in my opinion, so why don't you have a look at www.ultimatehigh.co.uk , a bit of training with a confident instructor might help you get over your fear :ok:

[foxmoth]

I would be interested to know what type Bucket did his spinning in. I find many people are put off by aircraft that do not spin properly - the instructor is gabbling to get the patter out before the spin changes to a spiral dive and the speed builds. As suggested try someone like UH.

[Woodenwonder]

I gave up instructing with our club for two main reasons - we sold the aerobatic aeroplane, and started to use a C172, and secondly the Instructor Seminar I had to go on was not a seminar, in that we the punters were given little chance to express a non-party line opinion. The last straw was finding that the recently retired CFS light aircraft trapper had never heard of the Muller spin recovery!
All my students were given the option to sample a spin if not to fly the whole thing. And even the one who didn't like the idea but agreed to try it, was glad that he learnt more about it.

[waldopepper42]

Foxmoth - the Slingsby Firefly is quite a good aeroplane to teach spinning in. The ones I did showed no tendency to spiral dive whilst the instructor calmy talked me through the recovery!

[foxmoth]

the Slingsby Firefly is quite a good aeroplane to teach spinning in. The ones I did showed no tendency to spiral dive whilst the instructor calmy talked me through the recovery!
And were you put off spinning because of it? I would bet that a lot less people are put off spinning like that than in a C152.:cool:

[waldopepper42]

Foxmoth,

I agree, and in my case no, it certainly didn't put me off. In fact the relaxed manner in which the instructor talked through the drill as though he had all the time in the world gave me confidence in the recovery.

I'm in the camp that thinks spin training is definitely a good thing, and makes better, more confident pilots.

WP.

[Bucket]

Well folks, thanks to you all. I never imagined that my thread would get such a response. Please keep it coming as it will form part of my personal research into the subject. I am sure that I cannot be alone in this regard, it just seems as if as FI's we are supposed to have nerves of steel (certainly) as far as the students are concerned. I welcome the chance to air my anxieties on this forum and remain truly grateful for the words of encouragement and thought provoking responses. It is much appreciated.

The aircraft type in question is the venerable PA28-140. A pleasant aircraft as you all well know. If mis-handled on the entry it just mushes and very quickly enters a rapid spiral dive; the proximity to VNe is quite interesting. And the end of the day I understand and acknowledge the value of spinning where an aircraft is available to do it.

For me, it's a confidence thing and as I alluded in my opening thread, other non-aviation factors have had some impact. Moreover, confidence in the aircraft is vital and in this respect the 140 does not bite but the age of the airframe perhaps gives some cause for concern especially when the aircraft in question are probably being spun every day.

I feel like a sinner in the confessional box but have to say that getting off my chest and opening it up for sensible discussion (without accusations of lack of moral fibre or words to that effect in the aviation sense) has really helped.

Thanks to all of you. Keep it coming;)

[hugh flung_dung]

Bucket:
I'm sure you've told your studes many times that confidence comes from experience - so you already know the answer:D

The experience really needs to be in an aircraft that has a reasonable rate of climb, spins properly and which you can have the confidence of being able to escape from if needed (wearing parachutes!).
Old Sarum (near Salisbury) have been offering aeros and spin courses in Bulldogs for about 10 years (not tired, ex-RAF Bulldogs!); there are other schools around that do the same in T67Ms or CAP10s. If you wanted to look at erect spinning in all it's glory we would be more than happy to accommodate, but if you wanted to delve into inverted spins you really need to be in a Pitts and Alan Cassidy at White Waltham would be one person to contact.

Send me a PM if you want more info.

HFD

[Kengineer-130]

Just a quick one, I didn't think the PA28's were cleared for spinning :confused: I might be entirely wrong of course :{ . As stated in the post before, if you are not confident and entirely happy doing a manuovre, then it will be hard to do well, let alone teach, and speaking from personal experience, a worried instructor leads to very scared students :eek:

[IRRenewal]

Just a quick one, I didn't think the PA28's were cleared for spinning :confused:
The straight wing versions are cleared for spinning. I have tried spinning them on many occasions (as part of the now obsolete airtest) and they are an absolute pig to get into a proper spin. As an aircraft to demonstrate spins and spin recovery on it is (in my view) completely unsuitable.

Cheers

Gerard

[CorpoRat]

Spinning was dropped after I completed my PPL. I never enjoyed it, but I accepted that I had to do it. It was dropped from the course when it was realised that there were more incidents/accidents during the training than occurred in "normal flight ops". A very good reason not to do it I would think. Couple that with the stats from the years since it was dropped and you would be a brave person to suggest that it should be re-introduced.

[hugh flung_dung]

CorpoRat:
This story about why spinning was removed is often touted but I haven't seen any evidence; I suspect the real reason is that manufactureres were not certifying aircraft for spinning. If you've got any evidence for your point it would be useful if you could publish it (or a pointer).

These days we teach spin avoidance and the stude learns the theory of full spin recovery - but it's very rare to find someone that can recover the aircraft safely when first shown (after detailed briefing) a spin. After a spin session or two they stand a chance of recovering.
It seems very sad that we're sending people off with a huge gap in their safety knowledge and this fear of something which is a stable "flight" condition for many aircraft.

Training can be perfectly safe BUT the FIs need to be proficient and comfortable, the aircraft need to be suitable, and SOPs need to be sensible.

HFD

[Speed Twelve]

I spent several years instructing in a civilian flying school environment and now work for the military doing EFT on the Firefly. One thing that doesn't seem to be emphasised in the civilian world is the incipient spin recovery technique. If the aircraft is mishandled and undemanded roll occurs then applying the incipient recovery inputs will prevent a full spin from developing if done quickly and correctly. The key is practice, the inputs have to be instinctive and rapid.

Full spin recovery training I feel to be largely academic in the PPL world for several reasons. Most full departures from controlled flight are going to be either in the turn onto final or on the approach; a weekend pilot of average skill who has allowed this to happen is unlikely to have the nous to immediately carry out the full spin recovery drill for his aircraft, and more to the point will not have enough height left to recover anyway. Spin prevention and recognition of signs of the approaching stall are the key I reckon.

As mentioned, a lot of modern light aircraft have benign spinning characteristics, and will come out into a spiral dive if pro-spin controls are not deliberately held. Some, like the Firefly, have a stable spin and will in fact enter a high-rotational mode if the recovery is mishandled. One of the reasons I wear a parachute at work. These spin factors only become significant during deliberate full or incipient spin training and aerobatics, however.

Finally to the issue of instructors being confident with spinning/unusual attitudes. During my 5 years teaching PPLs, I had students depart the aircraft into incipient spins on 2 occasions through mishandling academic stall recoveries with power and flap, usually after they used aileron to pick up a wing drop. I have also had an inexperienced student panic completely and pull the control column back to the aft stop and lock it there with both arms at 1000' agl. By the time I'd persuaded him to let go we were a fair way into a loop resulting in a rather sporty unusual position recovery. For these reasons alone I think it is essential that instructors are comfortable with recoveries from unusual positions, full and incipient spins. A student will try and kill you one day, it comes with the job!

[porridge]

The Tomahawk, although it enters into a classic spin, is probably not the best aircraft to introduce spins to someone on. Where I do FIC courses we have both the C150 Aerobat and the ubiquitous PA38. I usually do the initial FIC spin training on the C150 to acclimatise the student FI before going to the PA38. I also use the 'competition spin' entry instead of the more abrupt 'flick entry': i.e I take the aircraft to the stall and at the pronounced buffet I apply pro-spin rudder and then get the stick fully back. With this method the entry is not as unpleasant as the more dynamic entry prior to the stall. The PA38 also has a very low nose attitude during the spin and more so during the recovery and most people will have never seen an aircraft in such an attitude before and so it is much more off-putting. In addition the rate of roll increases in the PA38 prior to recovery which again unsettles the student due in part to the fuel in the tanks being affected by centrifugal forces in the rolling plane - the so called 'A' gyro. Remarkably aircraft like the Pitts and the Extra are more benign in the spin than the PA38 and the C150, so it may make sense for someone who is anxious about spinning to get some training in one of these first.
However, I do think a persons attitude to spinning rests on how well or badly they were introduced to it, I know I had a bad experience of having one shown to me on my first lesson (‘air experience’ and it was done with power and very dynamically – consequently I was a very reluctant ‘spinner’ until someone came and taught me properly and then I had much more confidence). So now I am very mindful that the first spinning lesson should be taught well and if the student comes back having enjoyed the lesson and looking forward to doing it again, then I have got it right.

[Craggenmore]

Just out of interest, why did your instructor ask you to look at the back end of a Traumahawk during the spin?Because he's a tough guy!

1. If you have seen it, you'll never spin in one again and....

2. Have you ever seen the size of the nuts that hold the tail on? Obviously he hasn't!

:\

[hugh flung_dung]

I've seen what they do in a spin but if it's designed, tested and certificated to be spun then what's the problem?
I can't remember what the tail attachment looks like but it's unlikely that the nuts do anything other than stop the parts sliding off the shaft of the bolt, so they aren't too relevant. The loads on the bolt will be in shear and a small bolt can take a huge load. You need to trust the designer!

My earlier point was that the stude is unlikely to learn anything useful about spin recoveries by looking at the tail - it's more likely to cause anxiety.

HFD