Trainnee pay reduction....... NATS UK [Archive]

Quincy M.E.

7th Mar 2006, 11:57

Hi all

I know there have been a few comments in other threads regarding the trainee pay reduction but I thought a new thread may be in order.

What is the feeling amongst controllers/the company or trainees down at the college about this and the effect it might have on recruitment?

I think it will hit people in my position hardest (an older candidate with partner, mortgage etc) rather than the younger of us out there. I have been offered a place but am going to be living on an absolute shoe string for the next x No of years and will have to take out a loan of about 10k.

Cheers

GT3

7th Mar 2006, 12:27

Ok I would say that "living on an absolute shoe string for the next x years" is dramatically overplaying it. The £10K will be for a maximum 9 months at the collegee then pay rises kick in.

It may hit recruitment but in the NATS that is highly profit driven then I do not see the CEO wanting anything else than cutting an outlay that does not always get a return in the end.

BA Baracus

7th Mar 2006, 12:51

(For NATS) Is it £10k plus living allowance or just £10k?

It wont put me off either way - just would be nice to know. Compared to my uni days I will feel like a king on that kind of dosh (If I make it through) - I may even be able to splash out on the odd roll of double quilted toilet paper for those post-curry-night-out apocalyptic mornings (obviously not on a school night tho)!

I do sympathise with those older trainees with families to provide for - gonna be tougher for them but, as 'they' say...." where there's a will......

Maybe people on here could come up with some useful money saving ideas - like just having one light bulb and moving it to whichever room your in?

Quincy M.E.

7th Mar 2006, 13:39

It is now 10K without living allowance according to HR.

Quincy M.E.

7th Mar 2006, 14:41

Ok I would say that "living on an absolute shoe string for the next x years" is dramatically overplaying it. The £10K will be for a maximum 9 months at the collegee then pay rises kick in.
It may hit recruitment but in the NATS that is highly profit driven then I do not see the CEO wanting anything else than cutting an outlay that does not always get a return in the end.

But it says on the NATs website that it takes 15 months to train in Area. Is this not the case?

Thanks

tired-flyboy

7th Mar 2006, 15:08

I think with the new Area course - start to finish at the college is 9 months.

I may be wrong however.

Aiguilleur du ciel

7th Mar 2006, 15:25

I think with the new Area course - start to finish at the college is 9 months.
I may be wrong however.

this was discussed during my Q&A's session at my interview:
Area is 9 months @ the college then you will be posted to an unit
Airport is 6 months @ the college.....:ok:

Number2

7th Mar 2006, 15:28

'What is the feeling amongst controllers/the company or trainees down at the college about this and the effect it might have on recruitment?'

Recruitment (according to HR) is booming.

I think the pay for trainees is outrageous but I wasn't surprised that it was voted in. Most people are more concerned with making their own mortgage/car payments and having nice holidays. IMHO, the majority aren't too bothered how well off the students are.

For people with a mortgage/family etc, it will be tough and I wish you all well. I wouldn't like to have to live in a 'squat' in Boscombe and I wonder how many controllers would have left their previous jobs for 10k a year.

flyingwingofjazzdestiny

7th Mar 2006, 16:02

I went through the college a couple of years ago and was on the old pay with the 100 quid a week living expenses. I don't remember feeling particularly loaded, on the contrary! I really don't know how I would have managed on 10k considering that the going rate for the vast majority of accommodation in and around Hurn was and probably still is 100 quid a week. Its hard and stressful enough getting through the college without added financial stress.

atcsstudent

7th Mar 2006, 16:29

At least you get to earn something.
In Spain you get about 450 € each month nearly for 2 years when you are at college.:{ :{ !
And you still moan about it?
Kind regards.

250 kts

7th Mar 2006, 17:06

And there is a feeling amongst some ATCOs that we should have similar terms and conditions to the Spanish. The grass is not always greener.:eek: :eek:

Lock n' Load

7th Mar 2006, 18:04

I think the trainee pay reductions are a bad thing for two reasons.

1) The college is not just another higher education institution. Quite apart from the workload being higher than the average uni course, it isn't well-served by bus routes as most colleges/unis are, and it really is too much to expect trainees to club together for car-buying for what are fairly short courses. On top of the expense of having a car, which at least a third of each course really must have, there aren't halls of residence and the only subsidised eaterie (is it even still subsidised?) offers lunch only.

2) It is a slippery slope to the current Canadian system of charging for the course and only paying a salary when the trainees reach operational training.

booke23

7th Mar 2006, 22:17

I'm afraid I welcome the new trainee pay structure. And would not be upset if trainee pay was abolished altogether. (although a student accomadation block would be needed to justify this) And I know others share this view.

For too long now we have had people just out of uni with their degrees in Ancient egyptian hystory etc, finding that they can't get a job in what they are qualified in.....then seeing the NATS ad when flicking through the paper offering a 22k starting salary.....they apply, get in.......and fail.

Personally, I think we will start to see a much greater percentage of highly driven students on the courses. Which should have an impact on the pass rate. Of course I may be wrong......time will tell.

Number2

7th Mar 2006, 22:25

I think it's a sweeping generalisation to think that previous students were not driven just because of the wage. The salary was in place to attract 'good' people. If too many failed, perhaps a keener eye should have been passed over the HR selection process or the training itself.

I agree with Lock'n'Load. This is the start of a very slippery path. Some people can only see as far as their own bank balance now that they have secured their own future.

Take a minute to think about others for a change.......

Kirk Biddlecombe

7th Mar 2006, 22:32

I agree with the point about NATS having wasted too much money on fresh graduates who go on to fail the course.

If I get in, the salary will be fine. I have finished studying, am single and 10k is great compared the amount I was receiving from Student Loans whilst at Uni, and that was in London.

I sympathize with older applicants though who may well have family responsiblities, mortages etc.
Perhaps older applicants should be given extra allowance for accomodation.

Kirk

Turn It Off

7th Mar 2006, 23:13

KazBird

7th Mar 2006, 23:39

Sorry guys, but I have to say that I think receiving a salary for training and therefore not actually earning any money for the company was always going to be one of the first things that management tried to change. I think that £10k is a pretty good wage to be on relative to the amount paid out/debt taken on by your average student (or student pilot!). You can easily get a decent room in a house in Bournemouth for £75-85 per week inc all bills. Petrol money to and from college can't account for more than a tenner a week.... and the rest (approx £5k over the year) is all yours (to easily cover food, car tax, insurance etc) I lived on a maximum of £50 spending money a week (after rent etc) through 3 years at uni and still saved - it can be done! And it's definitely worth it in the end:)

Number2

8th Mar 2006, 01:57

All well and good but that doesn't help the people with mortgages/family. 10 quid a week for petrol - if you drive a hybrid maybe.

Reality check please.

Lookatthesky

8th Mar 2006, 07:43

All well and good but that doesn't help the people with mortgages/family. 10 quid a week for petrol - if you drive a hybrid maybe.
Reality check please.

If you want it badly enough, you'll get a loan. It's not for ever, in fact it won't even be for 1 year and the reards for success are there.

Bright-Ling

8th Mar 2006, 08:24

It's simple.

If there are only 100 beans to pay people with, there are only 100 beans available. Period.

You can distribute the beans as you wish - 40 beans to trainee pay and 60 beans to valid ATCOs. But there are still only 100 beans available.

But then the valid ATCOs would get a bit miffed.

In short, how many valid ATCOs would declare publicly to not having a pay rise (or even having a pay cut) to ensure that Trainee's get more beans for 9 months??

B-L:ok:

aaaabbbbcccc1111

8th Mar 2006, 08:32

People joining with families, should get aroud £400 (per month) from child tax and working tax credit maybe even more. It is a struggle, I joined when they had the last wage decrease. I got a loan out, but unfortunately, the real life hiccups are still there, fuel pump went on the car, tennant didn't pay her rent. I am at a unit now, and we are still struggling, but we are mananging to keep the wolves from the door. It is difficult, but also an inspiration. If I am lacking the willpower, to get my head in the books, I just look at my bank statement.

tired-flyboy

8th Mar 2006, 08:37

OK here's a breakdown of costs from someone still at the college.
B&B (if you go that route) £90pw NO food. (circa £800 rent all bills and tax!)
Car - insurance (£450 pa), road tax (£97.50ish), petrol (or in my case diesel £15pw)
Food (about £50 pw including the all important DRINK!)
Pens, pencils, paper say £50 for the course
9 month course (or 16months if your special :{ ;) ) which includes travel to units for visits, Flying training (Manston, Wycombe if you get it)
BA Famil course travel to London, from hotel to airport, Cranebank etc. back to sunny bournemouth.
Ops famil time, if you can't rent up there then that'll put your fuel costs way up
I could go on, £50 pw down in sunny retirement ville won't get you very far. I can assure you. And yes i do have family, motgage etc.

Oh and are you aware that there is no accomodation near the college, buses are infrequent (if at all) and a cycle along the road of death (Wessex Way) just isn't worth it!

My tuppence worth but lets get back to reality.....really lets!

Bright-Ling

8th Mar 2006, 08:43

Yes lets get back to reality.

GET A LOAN LIKE I DID WHEN AT UNI

So how much do you need at the college to survive a period of 16 months?? £18k? Whatever.... just take 10k off that figure and go borrow. £8k over a few years will be a doddle when you are earning money.

Anyone free to post a picture of the Car Park at Hurn right now? Any flash motors there.....? Any course mates heading off to Ibiza?

Depends how much you want something.

B-L:ok:

tired-flyboy

8th Mar 2006, 08:52

Possilby a loan may help, but heres a thought a Career Development Loan (governement approved and all that) for professional courses of study - pilots, docs, ATC'ers is not all that it is cracked up to be.
I took one and god do i regret it......its a lot of money £8k over 5 years round about £180pm payback and that is after the 6 month repayment gap your allowed.
And for your benefit £14950 was the salary at college, plus WAP and travel home. Lose £5k off that figure and forget about your travel home. Also if your away from college (holidays, BA famil etc) forget about WAP. Minimum wage.
But your right and as aaaabbbbcccc1111 says it is inspirational to look at your bank balance and know that you have to pass the next exam, and the next etc

Quincy M.E.

8th Mar 2006, 09:03

Pens, pencils, paper say £50 for the course

So they dont even bung you a free Bic?1 :{

Not Long Now

8th Mar 2006, 10:21

All this talk of going down the route of not paying trainees at all would be understandable if there were thousands of applicants lying around.
As I understand it, NATS are struggling to fill courses, so if the money discourages any applicants then NATS are the loser.
It's all very well saying that those who really want to be controllers will put up with it for the long term gain, but a straw poll amongst my contemporaries reveals that 9 out of 10 of us wouldn't have given NATS a second glance if the money hadn't been there. So that would have left an even bigger staffing problem than we already have.
Personally, I think this is a suicidal move, or a cunning way of lining up the college for "Oh dear, it's not working, let's get someone else to train our staff for us..."
If NATS are really worried about paying all that money and watching it get kicked out the door, either bond trainees for say 5 years after passing, or if everyone is failing, change the selection criteria (again) to get the people you want or the college system (OK, give it time, I know it's changing as we speak) to get the quality you want.
Incidentally, I believe the last lot of approach trainees from the college have been under some scrutiny from TC training and may be 'sent back for further training'.
Surely they've either passed a rating exam or they haven't?

Gonzo

8th Mar 2006, 10:31

AFAIK, there have been more applications made to NATS since 01/01/06 than in the whole of 2005.

Of course, number of applicants doesn't have to be proportional to number of successful applicants.

Dances with Boffins

8th Mar 2006, 11:15

..nail on the head, Mr Gonzo, nail on the head.:hmm:

Number2

8th Mar 2006, 13:17

'Anyone free to post a picture of the Car Park at Hurn right now?'

I think any 'flash motors' (wonderful English by the way) were paid for when people were earning money in previous employment. I never saw it as a reflection of the student salary. IMHO, a weak arguement but whatever helps you to get to sleep at night.

DTY/LKS

8th Mar 2006, 13:19

NATS has thrown away money on failed trainees for too long.
The company seems to reward failure. A friend & me both got posted to LACC. Whereas as I am now fully valid on 2 sectors he failed to validate on his 1st sector, after a watch-change he still wasn`t up to standard so got chopped from LACC. He has now been posted to MACC where he is milking the company dry.
He owns a flat in the south & whilst in MACC NATS are paying his mortgage (£800 a month), his gas, elec & water bill.
Not to mention the back-pay he will recieve in due course reckoned to be £700 a month for the last 2 years = £16,800 for FAILING!!!!!!
NATS should look at this if they are interested in saving money.
I understand it may take some people longer to validate due to operational circumstances e.g Other trainees ahead in queue for that sector, but each case should be considered on it`s own merits.
Why should a T&D get the back pay of an ATCO2 for 2 years when he hasn`t been doing the job of an ATCO2.

ukatco_535

8th Mar 2006, 13:37

Lookatthesky

8th Mar 2006, 14:30

DTY/LKS
I think that issue is being addressed. It sickens me that people who validate quickly and are making a useful contribution to the company are not paid as a full ATCO until 2 years after they left the college. I know of some people who have had to wait 10 mor 11 months to get on the ATCO scale.
As for paying someone thousands for eventually making it at a new unit after failing - it is madness. AND they go onto the pay spine they would have been on if they had validated within the two years, so they get that jump as well!!

This, for me, is the biggest piss take. NATS must be the only company in the world to 'reward' failure!!!

Want to save some money bean counters??? Well, look into this, it has been going on for years and we all know of plenty of people who have earnt tens of thousands of pounds in back-pay because they couldn't validate at the first unit they went to. Keep them in a job if you feel you can get a return on the investment at another unit, but don't give them a 'bonus' for failing, it's madness.

Here's a novel idea- why not just put valid ATCO's onto the ATCO pay scale when they validate??? If it takes them 5 years, then they stay on the T&D scale for that long. I know all about the argument re: "What if someone goes to a quieter unit and validates quicker than someone who goes to a busier/more complex unit?" Well, I would assume that this is no longer a valid argument now that the banding is in place.

NATS could save a packet if they stopped this now.

foghorn

8th Mar 2006, 15:06

Not to mention the back-pay...
NATS should look at this if they are interested in saving money...
Why should a T&D get the back pay of an ATCO2 for 2 years when he hasn`t been doing the job of an ATCO2.

They don't anymore. Back-pay went several years ago. The only people who are getting it currently and will get it in the future get back pay are those who joined and signed their employment contract before that pay round was agreed.

More recent joiners start earning valid ATCO pay when they validate with no back-pay, albeit on the V-scale until their third anniversary from joining.

Here's a novel idea- why not just put valid ATCO's onto the ATCO pay scale when they validate

Yes, that's novel, isn't it. As I point out above it doesn't happen at the moment - newly valid ATCOs get the V-scale (70% of the bottom of the main scale) until their 3rd anniversary. Only then do they get put on the ATCO pay scale. That can mean two years for some!

Lookatthesky

8th Mar 2006, 15:26

[Yes, that's novel, isn't it. As I point out above it doesn't happen at the moment - newly valid ATCOs get the V-scale (70% of the bottom of the main scale) until their 3rd anniversary. Only then do they get put on the ATCO pay scale. That can mean two years for some![/QUOTE]

Erm, my point is that I agree with yours!! I had to wait 2 years, having validated in a little over one - it sucks, especially when you see failure rewarded

foghorn

8th Mar 2006, 15:43

Erm, my point is that I agree with yours!!

Sorry, yes I realise, I wasn't meaning to sound as argumentative as my last post reads :O :ok:

Angrel

8th Mar 2006, 16:31

just a quick one, having been accepted, (subject to a medical) is there anyone at the college now who can tell me exactly what take home pay is? would be most grateful! ta

Number2

8th Mar 2006, 16:41

Probably less than you're getting in the RAF and no FQ.......

Good luck

Bright-Ling

8th Mar 2006, 16:48

.....but Wing Commander pay within a few years guarenteed.

That's the point - the quick rise in pay has to be paid somehow.

Still no takers for my colleagues to donate some beans to the Future Studes?

Thought not.

Number2

8th Mar 2006, 17:14

That's because most people in today's society are selfish.

I'd say it's more like a Group Captain's pay actually with a lot less hassle. You have to buy your own clothes though and choose what to wear every day!

Hootin an a roarin

8th Mar 2006, 17:26

"I'd say it's more like a Group Captain's pay actually with a lot less hassle. You have to buy your own clothes though and choose what to wear every day! "

B****r me! Harry Staish's pay must have seriously dropped since I left if i'm paid more than them now!

Don't forget we are not all at units south of Watford! :E

Tired fly boy
"Pens, pencils, paper say £50 for the course"

What are you writing, War and Peace?

hangten

8th Mar 2006, 18:09

i'm not sure i want to express my opinon here but there are a couple of things that i want to add.

as i understand it the tax man won't get 25% of the money and the accommodaton allowance hasn't been scrapped. just altered. i think of the 10k, approx 4k will be accommodation allowance still, and therefore untaxed. of the 6k salary remaining i assume that most people would be eligible for a tax free sum of approx 4k, and therefore about 2k is left to be taxed at 23%. so say about £500pa?

as a point of interest i'm an anamoly but i will have been valid for over 28 months before i join the atco scale.

tired-flyboy

8th Mar 2006, 19:10

What are you writing, War and Peace?
Yes called Area exams - still have to do the 'unofficial' Ver Batim answers.
Miss out the odd word and you lose marks
Better to write War and Peace and use up pen than fail an exam because you forgot to add the odd word here and there!
Plus i write a lot of headings/ speeds/ levels!!!

edit (Ok £50 may be an over estimate but i have been here a while!!)

Number2

8th Mar 2006, 20:08

That'll be the Area exams that were supposed to be changed to multiple choice about 2 years ago (as I was lead to believe). I could never see the point to verbatim repetition. It never proved understanding of the subject. I could have given the revision material to my Father and he could have passed the exams.

I wouldn't want DwB to start accusing me of 'College Bashing' again but is it really that difficult to prepare a few exams properly?

Kirk Biddlecombe

8th Mar 2006, 21:32

Kirk,

I assume that also when you were living in London you had free council tax, discounted rail cards, subsidised bar, etc etc.

You dont get any of this at CATC because you are not a student, you are a trainee. That extra £100 a month just for council tax equates to £1000.00 of your 10K. Not to mention the 25% the tax man is gonna rob off.

I dont wanna knock your enthusiasm, I really hope you get on well, and get posted to my unit so I can get the transfer I have asked for!! I just dont agree with the new wage for students.

TIO
Indeed, I receive 30% off TFL travel, have free Council Tax and all the rest of it. Having to pay Council tax would only apply for me if I were to rent out my own flat, should I get in. Not sure if it's worth it, seeing as the course doesn't last an eternity. Also I have good friends living closeby to Hurn airport, who would be willing to accomodate me, if I were successful.

If I get in, I'd still regard myself as a student, i.e. living cheaply is just part of it. It would not bother me. Tax will be the main factor but still, ATC motivates me a great deal, and in this case money is not everything.

Kirk

TATC

8th Mar 2006, 22:51

i'm not sure i want to express my opinon here but there are a couple of things that i want to add.
as i understand it the tax man won't get 25% of the money and the accommodaton allowance hasn't been scrapped. just altered. i think of the 10k, approx 4k will be accommodation allowance still, and therefore untaxed. of the 6k salary remaining i assume that most people would be eligible for a tax free sum of approx 4k, and therefore about 2k is left to be taxed at 23%. so say about £500pa?
as a point of interest i'm an anamoly but i will have been valid for over 28 months before i join the atco scale.

6k a year for a 40 hour week - that doesnt sound like minimum wage to me.Also with the figures you are quoting it leaves take home pay at £800 per month, and you didnt take into account national insurance contributions

Number2

8th Mar 2006, 22:52

'and in this case money is not everything'

Sorry, what are you doing in ATC again? With that kind of attitude, you'll never fit in!

Kirk Biddlecombe

8th Mar 2006, 23:05

'and in this case money is not everything'

Sorry, what are you doing in ATC again? With that kind of attitude, you'll never fit in!

Well it's not. Mate, I'm expressing my opinion that I'm not bothered about the money. What are you going on about telling me I don't have the right attitude?

Number2

8th Mar 2006, 23:50

It's called a sense of humour..............chill out!

lobby

8th Mar 2006, 23:53

I think you may have just proved his point! If you are going to work in ATC you will have to learn not to rise to the bait SO quickly. :ok:

Kirk Biddlecombe

9th Mar 2006, 06:52

On the contrary, it's good to take every situtation seriously.

Hahaha, alright Number2, odd sense of humour there, but funny none the less!

Kirk

fly bhoy

9th Mar 2006, 10:39

as a point of interest i'm an anamoly.

Yes we already knew that mate!!!!

FB:ok:

foghorn

9th Mar 2006, 11:09

6k a year for a 40 hour week - that doesnt sound like minimum wage to me.Also with the figures you are quoting it leaves take home pay at £800 per month, and you didnt take into account national insurance contributions

£6000 pa salary and £4000pa tax free WAP equates to £790.80 per month by my calculations, assuming 6% pension conts. Trainees wouldn't even make the 22% income tax band - the top rate would be 10%.

Very little NI payable too due to the meagre salary - only £89.86 a year. This could cause problems because as far as I'm aware this is below the minimum annual contributions to get the year counted for benefits and state pension purposes, if a TATC stayed on this salary for a whole year of course.

However as you say that doesn't take into account the minimum wage - would NATS be able to get round this by claiming that trainees are apprentices or something?

flower

9th Mar 2006, 12:21

No the minimum wage also applies to those on a training scheme or apprenticeship , so i am not sure how they could legally split the salary the way that some have suggested.

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/nmw/

foghorn

9th Mar 2006, 14:51

TATC

9th Mar 2006, 15:41

In that case, trainees are currently contracted to 1856 hours per year (40 hours x 48 weeks, less 8 days for public holidays). Times £5.05 per hour that's £9,373.
Topping this up to £10k with tax-free WAP gives a monthly take home of £704.

Also it would be paid for 52 weeks because time off between courses is classed as annual leave, and you dont lose pay for public holidays, (just like admin staff who dont work public holidays within NATS). think of it this way operational staff get a day in lieu for a public holiday (whether working or not), it is not possible to give student ATCO's this because they would never be able to take it so they get a day off in its place, but still get paid for it.

using 35 hour week, 5.05 per hour over the full 52 weeks gross income is £9191

top up to 10k with tax free WAP gives annual WAP of £809

take off 6% pension from basic salary leaves - £8639.54

take off tax (calculated using on line calculator - leaves £8041.54

add WAP gives £8850.54 per year and £737.55 per month

this doesnt take into National Insurance.

However if as suggested the pay is split £6000 salary and £4000 living allowance (tax free) then the hourly rate is worked out based on the salary disregarding the living allowance and therefore wouldnt meet National Minmum Wage.

Number2

9th Mar 2006, 16:09

Any way you work it out. It's not much money to get by on in the south of England.

REVOLUTION

9th Mar 2006, 20:46

TATC

9th Mar 2006, 20:56

Most people get by at University on less than £10,000 p.a.
I know of people in other professions who have worked for free in work experinece posts in London to gain experience before getting a job with a salary.
Most people at the college are straight out of Uni who have been coping on minimum incomes.

maybe they have been living on small incomes but will have huge amounts of debt which they will have to pay

also at uni people generally arent running cars, and are living in subsidised accomodation

Number2

9th Mar 2006, 21:38

Quincy M.E.

10th Mar 2006, 08:56

Roger that No2!

Comparisons to the financial implications of going to Uni are flawed.

REVOLUTION

10th Mar 2006, 14:39

TATC
Thankyou. Another voice of reason. The college is NOT a university. Few of my course were graduates. Ex-Tescos, ex-RAF, some with family to support etc etc. Nothing is subsidised (especially beer in Bournemouth!)
IMHO, a whole different ball game to Uni life.

Don't drink the beer then!

When you validate you'll be on a big salary try and remember, a little bit of pain can be rewarded with a lot of gain!

tired-flyboy

10th Mar 2006, 15:29

When you validate you'll be on a big salary
You forgot to mention the fact that your on the T&D scale until the third anniversary of your college start date, THEN your salary goes up into the realms of the big salary!

Gonzo

10th Mar 2006, 15:47

28k + 5k Shiftwork +2k Outer London (at Heathrow)when valid on the T+D's not bad.

Kirk Biddlecombe

10th Mar 2006, 15:51

What's the T&D?

Lassie

10th Mar 2006, 15:54

Gonzo

10th Mar 2006, 15:59

It's what the payscale is called from when you leave the college to the third anniversary of joining. At that point, at Heathrow, it goes from 28k (plus 5k shift work and at Heathrow Outer London Supp. of 2k = total of 35k) to around a total of 48k.

foghorn

10th Mar 2006, 16:00

"What's the T&D?"
Training and development scale. You stay on this before you join the bottom of the atco pay scale. I think the point is that the more experience you gain then the more you deserve to be paid.
Lass

T&D does not exist for new entrants. It has been replaced by new post-college TATC grades until validation, earning around the £15k - 18k mark.

It's what the payscale is called from when you leave the college to the third anniversary of joining. At that point, at Heathrow, it goes from 28k (plus 5k shift work and at Heathrow Outer London Supp. of 2k = total of 35k) to around a total of 48k.

There are very few ATCO T&Ds left on that sort of money as that is the old contract that was done away with over two years ago now. More recent T&Ds at LL, LTCC and LACC are on £22k plus the allowances.

Gonzo

10th Mar 2006, 16:02

Well, whatever it's called, point VB5 is 28k + supps.

Lassie

10th Mar 2006, 16:03

T&D does not exist for new entrants. It has been replaced by new post-college TATC grades until validation, earning around the £15k - 18k mark.

What about once valid.....will new entrants go straight to the atco scale or still some sort of intermediate pay?

foghorn

10th Mar 2006, 16:05

What about once valid.....will new entrants go straight to the atco scale or still some sort of intermediate pay?

You go on the V scale until your third anniversary of joining the company. It's about £35k plus the allowances at Band 5 units.

Just to clear things up: Folks who joined before two and a half years ago got £19k + £4.6k tax-free WAP in college, £35k one posted to units, £42k once valid until their 3rd anniversary, then the main scale of £48k. Once valid, valid ATCO pay was backdated to the date that the first person who validated on that person's course.

Since then up to course 206, folks get £15k + £4.6K tax-free WAP at college, £28k once posted, £42k once valid until their 3rd anniversary, then £48k. There is no backdating.

After 207 the figures go £10k total whilst at college, then £17-18k whilst at a unit, then £42k after first validation until their 3rd anniversary, then £48k. Also with no backdating.

All the above assumes an outer London band 5 unit (EGLL, LTCC).

Lassie

10th Mar 2006, 16:10

You go on the V scale until your third anniversary of joining the company. It's about £35k plus the allowances at Band 5 units.

That seems very similar to the old deal then.

I do apologise if i'm missing something.

Kirk Biddlecombe

10th Mar 2006, 16:13

Is this correct then?

CATC: 10K
T&D: Approx 25K
Once Validated: 35K (at band 5 units, less for bands 1-4)

- Increases over the years...?

foghorn

10th Mar 2006, 16:59

Is this correct then?

No.

CATC: £10k
Units whilst validating: £17-18k
Valid: £42k
Third anniversary of joining: £48k
Then ~£3.5k annual increments to ~£80k.

All assuming LL or TC and include supplementary pay. LACC is just a tad less (due London weighting).

TATC

11th Mar 2006, 06:56

You go on the V scale until your third anniversary of joining the company. It's about £35k plus the allowances at Band 5 units.
Just to clear things up: Folks who joined before two and a half years ago got £19k + £4.6k tax-free WAP in college, £35k one posted to units, £42k once valid until their 3rd anniversary, then the main scale of £48k. Once valid, valid ATCO pay was backdated to the date that the first person who validated on that person's course.
Since then up to course 206, folks get £15k + £4.6K tax-free WAP at college, £28k once posted, £42k once valid until their 3rd anniversary, then £48k. There is no backdating.
After 207 the figures go £10k total whilst at college, then £17-18k whilst at a unit, then £42k after first validation until their 3rd anniversary, then £48k. Also with no backdating.
All the above assumes an outer London band 5 unit (EGLL, LTCC).

I joined in before 2 and half years ago and didn't get paid 35k+allownaces when posted to a unit. That was first validation pay.

when first posted to a unit it was 18.5k+wap for 3 months then I went onto the ATCO T&D scale which went from 22k-28k in 6,monthly incremments for 2 years or until valid when movement to first validation pay was made. Movemment onto the ATCO scale was 2 years from common course graduation date, if not valid by then then pay was backdated to that date. These figures applied to all trainees wherever posted as it was before banding. The only exception was Area students who went straight onto the T&D scale because they had an extra 3 months at the college assuming they didnt fail any courses.

WetFeet

11th Mar 2006, 07:10

TATC

11th Mar 2006, 07:40

I have always found it somewhat of an anomaly that one got paid good money to train at college ie whilst being non-productive. If we are totally honest with ourselves, there were, and are, people who came/come in to the job for the money. Some made it and some didn't. Some are now excellent controllers and some are now seeking/doing some other well paid job.
Maybe the new rates will mean that people that come into the profession will do so because they want to do the job, not jus for the money. And maybe that will mean a higher success rate. Maybe not, time will tell.
But let us not forget that is still a good deal compared to some countries that I could name where not only do you not get paid when training at college for your license but you pay for the course! Once qualified you then get that training money back. The incentive through this is the high pay at the end.
And how many pilots have got there by mortgaging themselves to the hilt to get qualified? A lot of them.
Look ahead. Things may be tight initially, but better than some get it, and the end rewards are great.

It will definitely only attract those that ant to do the job and not interested in money. but lets not forget that there will be people out there that are capable of doing the job, but who never get exposed to the possibility of a career in Air Traffic or with NATS due to the lack of careers advice. Air traffic control and NATS never attended any careers fairs that i went to at school or at university. My school careers officer probably never new what an Air traffic controller did, and would have been completely unable to offer any advice about how to get into it.

When i was training i was asked how NATS could improve recruitment. My reply was to visit schools and universities and make people aware of the career opportunities. The response I got was that NATS was happy to survive from applicants gaining an interest in the job from word of mouth from family friends, or being attracted by the money.

In order to attract applicants with a genuine interest in the job then the career needs to be publicised more within schools, universities and in career offices generally. I say publicise the career and not the money that goes with it, by doing this if someone was interested then they would have to do research to find out about pay, companies they could work for etc.. a good test of motivation

WetFeet

11th Mar 2006, 07:52

TACT, I agree. I should point out though that NATS does attend some careers conventions, several ATCO's/ATSA's at Scottish have been involved, but we do need to do more.

The difficulty is getting people involved in going to schools etc to give the presentations. With all the extra-curricular activities now needed to keep the business running/progressing, getting volunteers is not easy.

foghorn

11th Mar 2006, 15:49

I joined in before 2 and half years ago and didn't get paid 35k+allownaces when posted to a unit.

I was quoting a total salary rather than splitting out the allowances - I didn't make it clear. It is my understanding that under the old contract it's 28k plus allowances at band 5 units, therefore 35k total for old T&Ds at LTCC and EGLL. V scale is 35k plus allowances therefore 42k total.

maxbear

11th Mar 2006, 20:47

Hi, Just out of interest a friend of mine said that you can actually pay for a course at Bournemouth, have any of you folks an idea on how much we are talking about.
Thanks.

gilaine

11th Mar 2006, 22:20

Maybe the new rates will mean that people that come into the profession will do so because they want to do the job, not jus for the money.
Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't working all about making money? You get a job, go to work, give your time and effort and you're rewarded with money so you can buy things.
Why is it so bad to want the highest paid work you can get? Part of the attraction is the money, who can honestly say they're ATCOs just because radar gets their rocks off?

REVOLUTION

12th Mar 2006, 05:17

What attracted me to ATC was the [B]Final[B]salary (after validation) quoted in the newspaper advert, not the initial salary! No one expects to earn big money straight away. If people can't see the bigger picture then they are very shortsighted. You will only be on £10,000 for a short period of time.

Just because people want to do the job and know about aviation doesn't necessarily mean they'll make it. I'm not an 'aerosexual' and knew nothing about aviation when I applied to NATS, but got in 1st time, didn't get recoursed at the college and validated at the 1st unit I was sent to.

TATC

12th Mar 2006, 06:36

I was quoting a total salary rather than splitting out the allowances - I didn't make it clear. It is my understanding that under the old contract it's 28k plus allowances at band 5 units, therefore 35k total for old T&Ds at LTCC and EGLL. V scale is 35k plus allowances therefore 42k total.

i was posted to what is now a band 5 unit and intial pay was not a total of 35k including allowances. It rose to near that on the T&D scale but after 21 months.

tired-flyboy

12th Mar 2006, 11:48

Air traffic control and NATS never attended any careers fairs that i went to at school or at university
Is so true, how many people when they tell their relations the job they do think your the 'wee man who waves the bats'
The problem NATS may have now is that the recruitment adverts appear in the aviation mags, or the broadsheets. I can't remember seeing an advert for NATS in the local rag or the tabloids.
Maybe this is where the problem lies. Get HR to get out of the comfy office in the Parkway and get on the road....Heaven knows they never answer the phone when you call.

What do they do all day!!!! :rolleyes:

ukatco_535

12th Mar 2006, 12:03

And also get someone with a bit of common senbse and Emglish education to proof read the advertisements

"..a pressurised environment..."

Muppets

TATC

12th Mar 2006, 13:23

And also get someone with a bit of common senbse and Emglish education to proof read the advertisements
"..a pressurised environment..."
Muppets

were these deliberate mistakes or did you forget to proof read:}

Rozzy

12th Mar 2006, 16:08

Is so true, how many people when they tell their relations the job they do think your the 'wee man who waves the bats'

I nearly fell off my chair when i read that, its so true.

on topic though, im due to sit the first assessment on monday, the starting pay is only a minor headache. I finished college and started work as a labourer in the building trade ( got abit lost!), £6hr, and believe me, the wage drop will be a relief if and when i get in, knowing that eventually i will be on the good money, as the job i'm doing at the moment is not going to support me for the rest of my life, my aspirations are higher!

So bring on wessex way, I'll cycle half way round the world everyday if it means i dont have to have to go near another brush for the rest of my life! :ok:

foghorn

12th Mar 2006, 17:42

"..a pressurised environment..."
Muppets

I think they really wanted to be pilots :rolleyes:

ukatco_535

12th Mar 2006, 17:48

TATC

Not deliberate mistooks I'm afraid - I work in HR.

Only joking, I typed it quickly

dannyo

12th Mar 2006, 18:05

I can't remember seeing an advert for NATS in the local rag or the tabloids.

Off topic but I came in through the Cosmo route care of Mrs D:)

1985

12th Mar 2006, 19:17

Information about the job is out there if you look for it. I went to my local careers office, admitedly the advisors knew next to nothing about what it entailed, but there was a big folder stuffed full of information about how to go about applying.As for being interested in avaition before applying, crock of s@@t, every "aerosexual" on my course failed. If you are motivated enough to be able to pass the college and validate who cares wether you joined for the money.

ukatco_535

13th Mar 2006, 08:16

I don't care if the money lures people, or the fact that they are spotters does.

As long as they can do the job, and don't stitch up their workmates by ensuring they do their fair share and not have huge breaks etc then good luck to them.

That's what the rigorous training programme is for - to weed out those who cannot do it. What their motivation is does not count one bit, as long as they put the work in before, during and after the selection and training process.

I doubt if there are many ATCOS out there who hand on heart would do this job if the pay was not half decent - it's too much hard work to do that.

Gonzo

13th Mar 2006, 08:27

I would!.......

ukatco_535

13th Mar 2006, 08:51

Gonzo wrote

I would!.......

in reply to

I doubt if there are many ATCOS out there who hand on heart would do this job if the pay was not half decent - it's too much hard work to do that.

Gonzo, me old, the clue was in the bit that said

.....it's too much hard work.....
I was not counting the quieter units such as yours!! :E

Gonzo

13th Mar 2006, 09:50

So many replies, so little time!!!! :p

ukatco_535

13th Mar 2006, 11:43

Too busy counting your band 5 money eh??!!! ;)

Gonzo

13th Mar 2006, 15:22

Actually too busy today counting damn R44s and R22s coming in and out! :mad:

ukatco_535

13th Mar 2006, 15:34

These ATCOS will insist on flying in to work!!

GT3

13th Mar 2006, 16:48

Well we have to spend Band 5 money somewhere ;)

ukatco_535

13th Mar 2006, 17:01

So why stoop so low as to buy one of either an R22 or R44. I'm saving mine up for a Dauphin at the very least!

I'm a band fiver with standards!!

GT3

13th Mar 2006, 17:58

So why stoop so low as to buy one of either an R22 or R44. I'm saving mine up for a Dauphin at the very least!
I'm a band fiver with standards!!

The R44 is the work transport....for the weekends I run a Citation

AlanM

13th Mar 2006, 18:02

Actually too busy today counting damn R44s and R22s coming in and out!

Awww bless..... I can see the headlines in Airway....

HEATHROW TOWER CONTROLLER WORKS NON-IFR AIRCRAFT IN ATC SHOCKER

GT3

13th Mar 2006, 18:29

Awww bless..... I can see the headlines in Airway....
HEATHROW TOWER CONTROLLER WORKS NON-IFR AIRCRAFT IN ATC SHOCKER

Well we like to be remember what those special people do all day ;)

YourFriendlyATCO!

16th Mar 2006, 00:37

It's pathetic all these qualified ATCO's saying that if you want it badly enough, you'd put up with this pathetic salary. I wouldn't have done. I'll give you a fact: there are only 10 people starting o the next course. All the others have pulled out. Any ideas what the reason could be??? It's very easy to say, sitting on 65k that i would've still joined for this wage. At my unit, on my watch, no-one would've.

I feel sorry for the new trainee's. This new pay deal that people voted in has really sold them out. Got a feeling it will come back to bite us in the back side in the not so distance future though

Quincy M.E.

16th Mar 2006, 08:51

YourFriendlyATCO!

I'm glad some people have a sensible viewpoint on this matter. There are a lot of people out there who think that wanting something badly enough will enable one to break down all barriers to achieving a goal and they are the ones who berate newbies or wanabees for moaning about the salary. However it is a fact that the salary is a real issue for a lot of people, me being one of them. Thankfully I am going to be able to make it, not without a bank loan though, but as your comments suggest, others may not be able to.

BigBoeing

16th Mar 2006, 09:24

YourFriendlyATCO!

Where did you get that figure from? Its just Im on the next course and I've been in direct or indirect contact with over 10 people on same course, so have I met my entire course already!??

250 kts

16th Mar 2006, 17:48

I heard that figure quoted but asked someone in the know the other day and apparently there will be a full course starting at the end of March.
No one has been "sold out". All of the new entrants had been advised that there was a possible change to their salaries in the offing. We have to assume that these are grown up people making grown up decisions on whether that pain is worth it for a few months with a long term salary that is getting close to being pretty good. :D :D
If they are good enough the pain will be worth it-if not then they will in some cases have given up loads and for those I feel genuinely sorry, and for others it will be just another job that slipped by and they won't give it a second thought 5 years down the line.

clearthedecks

16th Mar 2006, 20:47

No.
CATC: £10k
Units whilst validating: £17-18k
Valid: £42k
Third anniversary of joining: £48k
Then ~£3.5k annual increments to ~£80k.
All assuming LL or TC and include supplementary pay. LACC is just a tad less (due London weighting).
These figures were quoted earlier in this thread for salaries at band 5 units. I'm assuming that lower banded units would pay less than this, and one would have an equal chance of going to a lower band unit, should there be a requiement at that unit.
Is the pay significantly less at the lower banded units?