NATS College of Air Traffic Control [Archive]

PPRuNe Radar

28th Feb 2006, 18:25

Very impressive Belk78. I think even the English would have to admit that

If by 'English' you mean 'British', then there is already admittance that the Spanish have some kit that is up to the task, hence the formation of a joint venture company between NATS (UK) and Spain (AENA) to work on equipment provision for the UK ACCs in the not too distant future.

The main constitutional difference between the UK NATS college facilities and those in Spain is that NATS are currently wholly owned and operated by the UK NATS company itself, whilst SENASA is a commercial third party organisation who provides classroom and simulation facilities to a wide range of customers, including AENA, the Spanish ATC provider.

Bumpy

1st Mar 2006, 07:55

By English I mean English. Not Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. The 'Best in the World' arrogance based on no empirical evidence in your company comes from the English.

I live partly in Hampshire now although I have to travel the country. The anti European attitude and little Englander attitude in your company is sad to say the least. The European Legislation should be criticized in a constructive way, not by blatant snidy racist comments. I'd let a few of these incidents pass as humor. There have been more than a few.

Never heard a a Scot, Welshman or Irishman utter for example some of the anti french nonsense I've had to listen to. That's unless they really want to 'fit in' which is a big thing here eh.

I was told by a Trainee they were asked to hand their compasses, protractors back at the end of a Navigation homework lesson, oh and don't take too much graph paper. What a joke. World class training with a smelly instructor sitting next to you breathing God knows what in your face. Wonder why that trainee's run went wrong.

I'd laugh more but sadly I'm over here now with some involvement as such.

I also can't beleive these 'HR Partners' get away with so much.

edited: Also note that when you use general terms like English and Scots you are GENERALIZING. I'm working with some sterling English people here. I was born in Scotland, Oh and my wife's English and not in the slightest bit anti European although she does give us US citizens a hard time though.

Gonzo

1st Mar 2006, 08:36

Has Jet Blast moved???:confused:

Dances with Boffins

1st Mar 2006, 10:25

Jeez Bumpy, were you bitten by an Englishmen when you wuz a kid?:cool:

If kit is re-used in a UK College, it is purely to keep costs down. When you are in the private sector, then everything has a cost. You can be sure that if the Spanish let you keep something, it has been paid for.

The "Best in the World" bit comes from returning aircrew as they cross back into the London/Scottish FIR from the bits of the world that aren't yet under UK ATC. It ain't our fault...

And I'm not English, afore ye start.:ok:

PPRuNe Radar

1st Mar 2006, 10:59

Bumpy

A very high proportion of senior NATS managers have been traditionally Scots or Irish (Northern or Republic), and this continues to this day. A bit like our sad Government but that's another story (and the latter certainly can't come even close to world beating unless you measure it in terms of bungling, lying and cheating ;).)

I guess from your rant that you think that 'little englanders' are pulling all the strings somewhere in NATS and the 'Celtic' guys such as the chiefs of the En Route and Airport divisions, the future planning chief, plus certain members of the Executive Board, are all just puppets.

You appear not to have a clue about NATS involvement in Europe, which has always been one of co-operation and influencing. Airspace sharing, major programmes such as BRNAV, RVSM, etc, etc. NATS has been at the top table working with its European colleagues for a long time. Joint work with Spain and Germany on electronic tools and new ATC equipment concepts. The joint venture with Spain. Provision of help to France and Albania on airspace restructuring. Working with Eurocontrol on setting up the CFMU (which covers ALL of Europe). I could go on and on. How much evidence do you need ?

Perfect separation

1st Mar 2006, 11:04

Have heard this from other (mostly British) pilots many times. Not offering any opinion on NATS' merits. Would anyone nominate their best or worst ATC in the world?

Just reading — separate forum about the recent runway incursion at CDG — gives me the creeps. (And for me Bumpy, I like the French!):}

Bumpy

1st Mar 2006, 11:18

I don't recall writing the words Management, Chief, Executive Board in that post??

What I've got a clue about?? You can deduce that can you from such a short script? Hilarious, but I guess that's these forums for you. You don't now what I've got a clue about.

Your Training (which I was writing about) is far from 'World Class'. The best efforts of many talented people have tried and are trying resolve this.

Step off, and save your blurb for NATS NEWS.

PPRuNe Radar

1st Mar 2006, 11:37

Too much bluff and bluster and incoherent argument there for me Bumpy. I am lost as to the point you are trying to make.

Your first rant was unclear in its purpose. The second provides consistency :ok:

ukatco_535

1st Mar 2006, 11:41

Bumpy,

I'm Scottish, and despite the 'auld alliance', I think the french smell of onions.

There, glad I got that off my chest. As for those thick Paddys....

For Gods sake, the company claims to be the best ATC service provider - not trainer. It is not merely the English within the management who make the claim. It is a claim made by private companies in many different disciplines - It is to do with commercialism and being heard.

This is not about English snobbery or anything else; it was an initial question about the college.

I think the college has a long way to go to be perfect; but most of that is down to poor management decisions IMHO, not the instructors (tho there are some bad apples as in any workplace).

If the college is that bad, why do we have so many good ATCOs working in some of the busiest, most crowded and complex airspace in the world?

I have looked at your profile, you are a pilot... were you the pilot who in previous posts claimed to have a relative at or trying to enter the NATS college (I can't be bothered to search)?

Has he/she been chopped?? Is that the reason for your rants??

Van Der Hum

1st Mar 2006, 11:43

Never heard a a Scot, Welshman or Irishman utter for example some of the anti french nonsense I've had to listen to.

True but you hear a lot of anti English nonsense sometimes. You only have to spend a weekend in Cardiff or Edinburgh when there's a six nations game to realise that. If the English are there any comments made will more often than not come from the Welsh, Scots etc.

ukatco_535

1st Mar 2006, 11:51

As for us Celts 'fitting in' by joining in with 'racist comments'; I think you will find that NATS as is the case with the Armed Forces, has a very high number of Scots, Welsh, and Irish in it's ranks.

In fact if taken as a percentage ratio of number of people living in each country you will find that NATS et al have significantly less success at recruiting English people.

Or to put it another way in words you may appreciate - maybe the English are too up their own backsides to do such a lowly job, so they leave it to us 'Sweaty Socks, Paddies and Sheep Sh**gers'

I'm off to polish my sporran then a quick trip across the border for some rape and pillage.

note to mod - Scottish humour alert

Bumpy

1st Mar 2006, 13:17

Bluff and Bluster??

Bit of a last word freak eh Radar? Laughable.

:zzz:

ukatco_535

1st Mar 2006, 13:23

Bluff and Bluster??

Bit of a last word freak eh Radar? Laughable.

for Bumpy -

"Pot this is Kettle, interrogative colour check, over"

Thought I would beat PPRuNe Radar to the punch.

So Bumpy,

Have you found another vocation after the College? With chips on your shoulder like that, McDonalds will be glad to take you!!

250 kts

1st Mar 2006, 13:39

A year ago he was as nice as pie asking about the college as his nephew was about to start there. A year on there is a definite anti-English stance being taken. Well I guess things are not going well for the "boy" and so he feels the need to have a real go at the ATCOs. On my night duties last week I was one of 6 Englishmen out of a total of 17 on duty. So I guess the chances are that all of the culprits as he sees it can't be English ,or can they?:confused: :confused: And if it's management he's having a go at,well we all know the situation there.

And all this coming from a pilot born in the USA who will be no doubt start whingeing about the ride as soon as there's as much as a ripple on his free tea.:{ :{

Van Der Hum

1st Mar 2006, 13:58

Well I guess things are not going well for the "boy"

Of course, his "nephew" will have been a totally innocent victim chopped unfairly by the college. No need to take any personal responsibility, it can't have been his fault.

ukatco_535

1st Mar 2006, 13:58

250 kts
Just a wee correction on your last post. Bumpy was born in Scotland (according to his post on page one), but now appears to be a US National.
Only correcting you as Bumpy will feel aggrieved and may even bring you up against the European Court of Human Rights for denying him his Scottish heritage.
Or as he is now Americanized (deliberate use of the 'Z' for our transatlantic cousin), he might sue you in a civil case as your denying him his rights to Scotttish heritage may be deemed damaging and slanderous. Standby to lose your pension in any such court (If NATS don't steal it first!)
I could not remember if it was Bumpy who had been asking about a 'nephew'; thanks for clearing that up.
However, I have heard from other sources that Bumpy and his nephew may be one and the same (a bit like when I was 14 and I told a girl that a 'friend' of mine fancied her) - that didn't get me anywhere either.

:uhoh:

ukatco_535

1st Mar 2006, 14:14

Van Der Man

You should know that anyone chopped from the college is done so because the Evil Dr Barron has an ulterior motive. He only wants slow witted 'yes' men to succeed.

Anyone who shows the slightest bit of promise is chopped at an early stage. I have not seen the internal memo from Dr Barron to his felonious side kicks at the college, but I have been reliably informed of it's existence by one of the Aramark kitchen staff here at TC (who is in reality, a super secret agent for Safeskys and MI5).

He/she (gender of agent protected for security) did inform me that he/she had taken photographic evidence of said memo using a micro camera secreted in a cornish pasty, but said pasty was consumed before camera could be rescued.

It goes without saying that the aforementioned 'Nephew' would of course have passed the college with flying colours if only he had been allowed one more piece of graph paper.

That just goes to show you low this company will stoop, when it allows such bright flames to be extinguished for the cost af a sheet of paper.

250 kts

1st Mar 2006, 14:31

533. It did cross my mind that he may be the boy "nephew". I can't believe that he would only post into ATC issues as a pilot and obviously a verbose one at that. Maybe he does the pilot bit when he closes down Pprune and opens up FS.:8 :8 :8 :8. Anyone care to see how many cadets started this time last year and failed to make the grade-nationality could be an issue in the search-but on second thoughts,can anyone really be that bothered!!!:sad: :sad: Seems he also has a downer on NATS News-probably because he'll never appear in it as a successful cadet.:{ :{

Number2

1st Mar 2006, 17:05

Personally, I think you all sound as sad as eachother......

261A

1st Mar 2006, 17:41

You guys have really sidetracked my thread! :} :{

Seriously, no worries

AlanM

1st Mar 2006, 18:00

Sidetracked...?? Terrible when that happens.
UKATCO - why the 535 bit then.....???

Angrel

2nd Mar 2006, 02:32

tell ya wot, i'll just say,

''to be the world leader in air traffic management''

mission statement of NATS!!

belk78

2nd Mar 2006, 06:44

You can be sure that if the Spanish let you keep something, it has been paid for
that´s funny, where are you from?

Dances with Boffins

2nd Mar 2006, 08:04

I'm the guy who collects the protractors at Hurn.

Hope you didn't take offence in Spain - i was referring to commercial pressures rather than any Spanish lack of generosity.:cool:

Bumpy

2nd Mar 2006, 08:13

God there are some presumptuous idiots on here.

Not that I have to tell you, my nephew is at his unit now and has been out of the college for sometime.

My vocation after the college. You know nothing about that. Keep guessing. Or better still don't bother.

Bye Bye (no more posts from me on this thread no matter how annoying you jerks get.)

ukatco_535

2nd Mar 2006, 08:14

Angrel

I don't know what you are getting at with your last post. it is a mission statement.....

Would you prefer a private company involved in a critical safety orientated business to have a mission statement along the lines of "We aim to just get by"?

Alan M

No reason, tho I sometimes finish a shift feeling that old!

250 kts

2nd Mar 2006, 14:07

"My nephew who is English has been offered a NATS trainee position. He is a talented young man and we're all very proud of his success so far".
The above is a quote made by Mr Bumpy on 22/02/2005.
It would suggest that the "boy" had not commenced the course at the college at this stage. However one year and one week later,quote "my nephew is at his unit now and has been out of the college for sometime".
Now I know they have cut the college course down considerably but does this really hold water? What is the shortest time from starting at Hurn to arriving on the unit?

SilentHandover

2nd Mar 2006, 14:14

I know of one started college April 2005, posted to unit Sep 2005.

ukatco_535

2nd Mar 2006, 14:14

250kts

What is the shortest time from starting at Hurn to arriving on the unit?

If you fail the foundation course but are lucky enough to get an ATSA position?

I would say 3 or 4 months :}

foghorn

2nd Mar 2006, 14:55

I know of one started college April 2005, posted to unit Sep 2005.

Four from the March 2005 intake were posted in Oct 2005. One wasn't male and one of the males wasn't English. The next intake after that was in June 2005, AFAIK the first postings from this intake have just taken place last month along with two more from the March 2005 intake, so aren't really "out of college sometime".

Everyone else from March 2005 onwards is either chopped or still at College.

So that narrows things down to just one person. If Bumpy is telling the truth :)

Edited to correct my facts in the light of IMNS' post

I'm not joking sir

2nd Mar 2006, 14:57

We started at CATC first week of March last year and were posted at the beginning of October. (Aerodrome.) We all would have been posted a few weeks earlier but had "special" moments along the way... :\ The Approach monkeys were a few weeks behind us because they were just special the whole time. ;)
In and out in seven months.

One wasn't male

Not really sure what she was! I don't have a Scottish/American/Pilot Uncle so that rules us all out from the March course.

foghorn

2nd Mar 2006, 15:07

I don't have a Scottish/American/Pilot Uncle so that rules us all out from the March course.

Me neither. I'm 100% bigoted English, apparently.

belk78

3rd Mar 2006, 06:06

I'm the guy who collects the protractors at Hurn.
Hope you didn't take offence in Spain - i was referring to commercial pressures rather than any Spanish lack of generosity.:cool:
Not taken. just kidding :)
by the way, i was wondering, how long does the training course take there (i mean NATS)?
thanks

SilentHandover

3rd Mar 2006, 09:12

I must just be in denial about how long I've been missing your for INJS!!!!

I'm not joking sir

3rd Mar 2006, 11:11

Yes, a whole year now of not being reminded that it's better to be anything rather than a Quin!

Plumaveloz

3rd Mar 2006, 11:23

The main constitutional difference between the UK NATS college facilities and those in Spain is that NATS are currently wholly owned and operated by the UK NATS company itself, whilst SENASA is a commercial third party organisation who provides classroom and simulation facilities to a wide range of customers, including AENA, the Spanish ATC provider.

Regards to everyone, despite his/her nationality :}

Both SENASA, and AENA are "entidades estatales", some kind of a private company but whose mains aims are to provide a service considered as essential by the national government.

They are both supervised by the civil aviation authorities and their figures must be aproved by the government. They are not very independent so.

The main objective of SENASA is to instruct future controllers, and this takes almost 90% of their income and more than that on human resources.

About 60 controllers work there. They must have 6 years on the job experience, pass an 8 week course and go trough a selection process. They cannot stay on the school for more than 2 years and must maintain thier own license alive, coming back to their original facilities on a regular basis.

SENASA has 3 full 360 degrees visual tower simulators, than can be divided onto six 180 degrees. Also has 3 radar simulators, each one equiped with 6 sacta units (named foccus) for a total amount of 18 sector positions.

The system is ready to operate fully coordinate, than means, full staffed, a FIR of 6 towers, 12 enroute and 6 aproach sectors. It can also manage more towers or sector that may work autonomous.

It was first use on 2001 (I was there! to tell it :) ) and pointing out that I haven´t had the oportunity of visiting any other instruction facilitie, I believe SENASA is well equipped and its personal works fine and provide a good instruction.

Á.

Dances with Boffins

3rd Mar 2006, 11:43

how long does the training course take there (i mean NATS)?
We can build an Area Rated ATCO in about 9 months. Ditto a dual [Aerodrome + Approach Radar] rated Airports ATCO. Single Rating takes about 6 months.
This is a lot shorter than "the good old days" as NATS now accepts single rated controllers straight from training. We no longer give aerodrome Ratings to Area Controllers.
[Apologies to all non-NATS airports who now have to find another source of non-validated ADC controllers]:p

Number2

3rd Mar 2006, 14:16

'Apologies to all non-NATS airports who now have to find another source of non-validated ADC controllers'
It took NATS rather a long time to realise they were 'wasting' a lot of time and money though! Then again, the new '9 month' Area-rated controllers are unlikely to be too aware of other units' day-to-day problems.
DwB
I hope that isn't 'getting in your way' old boy! :p

ukatco_535

3rd Mar 2006, 14:58

Number2

It's not just the area bods who will have no appreciation - what about the tower only guys - they won't have an appreciation for what their approach guys do.

It's getting ridiculous - we are cutting back far too much, and it is going to be the students that suffer, as more will fail at units due to lack of understanding. Our company is starting to do them a disservice, and the instructors at the college have their hands tied behind their backs. :*

Bern Oulli

5th Mar 2006, 16:26

UKATCO, you took the words out of my mouth. Some of us, from within, had been saying as much for some years. The last time I said it I was told by a management person "I don't want to hear that". Rather glad I'm out of it.
From a small person. Thanks D with B

Wigwam Warrior

5th Mar 2006, 17:19

Bye Bye (no more posts from me on this thread no matter how annoying you jerks get.)

So farewell then Bumpy as it was indeed farewell Scotsliveit.

In my involvement with NATS and ATC (in the UK) for 10 years

10 Weeks wasn't it?

I must also add that my colleagues and myself laise with many talented NATS staff/management

Didn't know you were still allowed to do that.

I can easily identify self delusion fuelled by greed, desperation, self preservation

Mirror?

Step off, and save your blurb for NATS NEWS.

I suggest you step on sunshine.

Remember everyone, Bumpy/Scotsliveit is a war country! However like herpes, its strikers whilst irritating are easy to spot and not hard to deal with.

chevvron

6th Mar 2006, 06:54

I find it disconcerting that students are now pushed through the college in such a short time. This is reflected on the extended period it now takes to get them to C of C level with real aircraft which, however good the simulators at the college are, never behave the same simulated ones. As UKATCO and BernOulli say, they also have no appreciation of the other guys job, just repeating mechanically what they're taught at the college.

Dances with Boffins

6th Mar 2006, 11:40

To be fair to the College, they only give the training that they are asked to give. If y'all out there at the sharp-end think that little Jimmy should have been taught such-and-such at the College before he came to you, THEN TELL SOMEONE OFFICIALLY.
The old system of the College simply guessing what the units want and thus piling everything except kitchen-sink recognition into the courses has gone for good now. Now you are all "customers" :yuk: and your training officers are being encouraged to stipulate exactly what should be included and left-out. They are also asked what level the College training should reach, whether Hurn produces a "product" :yuk: :yuk: that is totally polished in a particular skill or has a firm grasp of the basics so that their trainers at the Unit can mould them into the state-of-the-art controllers that everybody needs to be these days. The money-monkeys won't let any training that doesn't have a legal or operational requirement nailed to it through the approval process.
Basically if you want it, ask for it. If you don't ask, you don't get. [Although if you do ask but can't argue that it is cost-effective :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: for the College to do it, your money-monkey is gonna say no.
Don't like it but ain't going to be changing it any time soon, so start making the system work for you.
That controller is Bern-oulli. Those controllers are big, but far away.