CRM Start and finish

[carbonfibre]

I apologise in advance If this sounds a little stupid.....

When does CRM start and finish? or does it?

I would imagine all the time your with your crew, from entering the airport, on stop over until you finish your duty?

Many thanks in advance

Carbon :ok: :eek:

[duece19]

never finishes... crm crm crm crm... it even works with the wife :E

[PENKO]

never finishes... crm crm crm crm... it even works with the wife :E

Never has a truer word been spoken :p;)

[OzExpat]

CRM with the wife?:eek:
Aren't you confusing this with political correctness?:}

[GearDown&Locked]

CRM with the wife... who's the PNF then...:E

[On speed on profile]

GDOWN&Locked.

Its normally the wife..........:(

Headache!

[carbonfibre]

Thanks for info all, enjoyed the laugh, works on the wife, Ill have a practice .................then duck out the way

:ok:

[HeavyDog]

Hmmm! At least the PNF understands who indeed wear's the trousers......:cool:

[OzExpat]

I might have to migrate to the UK because, in every marriage I've ever seen, the wife is PF and there's no such thing as CRM during THAT time of the month!:uhoh:

[Rwy in Sight]

Wise advice about the (heaven's forbid) wifer stuff.

Nevertheless I apply the CRM as couple resource manual to any girlfriend.

Rwy in Sight

[Skunkie]

CRM works in every aspect of life, with wives/husbands (have you ever noticed that in a relatinship sometime one is the PF and the other PNF and sometimes is the opposite? it is a matter of the subject you are involved in!)
anyway it works for a lot of other jobs, expecially where a teamwork is required and also -this is my opinion- discussing with yourself about something you cannot say to anyone else....sit down and think, thinking about most important CRM principles and you will see you will find an answer...maybe only an unbalance between your reptile brain (your primordial emotions) and your cortex and main brain (that mitigate emotion and adapt them to true life)
that's why CRM can never stop, it is always evolving as, except from the basic principles, I think that it is a continuos evolution to find perfect (crew) communication and be able to cope also with people you really don't like at the very first beginnig. A sort of compromise, someone could think, a sort of safety and survival is my definition

Skunkie

[Non Normal]

The trick with wife CRM is that you try to remain being the PF, while you let her think she's the PF. Works a treat. She's happy, you're happy. :}

Just watch out she doesn't do the same thing back to you though ;)

[AerocatS2A]

The trick with wife CRM is that you try to remain being the PF, while you let her think she's the PF. Works a treat. She's happy, you're happy. :}

The real trick is to let her be PF all the time while you remain the PiC.

[Non Normal]

The real trick is to let her be PF all the time while you remain the PiC.
But she might drop you in it! So many accidents happen... :}
Be the PiC AND PF :E

[AerocatS2A]

But she might drop you in it! So many accidents happen... :}
Be the PiC AND PF :E

A good Captain acting as the PNF will correct any mistakes before they become terminal.

Christ, I hope she doesn't read this.

[Non Normal]

Hahah, LOL AerocatS2A

Anyway, seriously, has anyone tried flying with your wife or husband?
That is a potential nightmare, I tell you.

[Skunkie]

I've been flying for 7 years with my boyfriend, that now is my husband (me as a cabin crew, him as a captain...:eek: )
as long as i'm crm instructor flights went on very good (at least what passengers and other crew could se....we have a subliminal language to understand each other without involving others)
the nightmares were the night stops spent discussing abuot what I did wrong and what he did well (good example of crm...:hmm: )
now i'm not flying anymore and we still discuss often about these themes at home expecially after some troubled flight or training...at home he's PF (didn't realized yet is not exactly like this buth we both satisfied :) ) but I'm very glad to see that many inputs I give him on our domestic flights are applied by him on flight and explained to copilots who find the matter interesting......feel quite proud...maybe I hit the goal!
cheers

[Centaurus]

Funniest thing I ever saw was husband and wife team undergoing a 737 type rating together in the sim. Taxiing out toward the runway, wife left seat, husband right seat. Husband does full control check including full aileron reversal at same time as full back stick. The control wheel horn clobbers the wife's right boob on the way through provoking a sharp retort of "Getting a bit initimate again, are we". Later the husband is attempting an NDB approach as PF and making a hash of it. Wife turns to the instructor (me) and says "His flying sucks, doesn't it?"

On another occasion, colleague instructing a really very attractive young lady in the 737 simulator. Like some well known tennis players she was a "squealer grunter" and when coping with engine failures on take off she vocalised if you know what I mean. My colleague was quite turned on by this and as he admitted later "just had to give her a few more engine failures."

[Kit d'Rection KG]

CRM started in the 80s and won't finish until someone bucks up and realises it has done nothing for the accident rate and that it's a huge waste of time and money.

It's a stark thought, but not without foundation in statistical fact. The accident rate (or rather, rates, as we should take account of the appalling figures for the few first generation jet transports still flying - which are now significantly more risky than they were when new) shows no improvement over the time that CRM training has been introduced.

The things that worry me about 'CRM' are that a great deal of what passes for CRM 'training' is the worst kind of nonsense delivered by people with no knowledge of the subject, and that the genuine ingredients which make up a competent pilot have been forgotten about, and with that, we've forgotten to teach new pilots some of the important stuff that they need to know and be able to do....

Another stark thought: What is CRM? If you can't answer that in one simple sentence, then how can you possibly build a syllabus from it?

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

CRM started in the 80s and won't finish until someone bucks up and realises it has done nothing for the accident rate and that it's a huge waste of time and money.
It's a stark thought, but not without foundation in statistical fact. The accident rate (or rather, rates, as we should take account of the appalling figures for the few first generation jet transports still flying - which are now significantly more risky than they were when new) shows no improvement over the time that CRM training has been introduced.


I am sure many people with better access to data and facts than me would dispute that. There seems to me to be a strong 'prima facie' correlation between the substantial improvement in Western scheduled commercial aviation safety and the onset of CRM training in the past 25 years. Touch wood, we have the most remarkable safety levels today in the major aviation nations of the world. No doubt other factors have contributed to this improvement as well, but I haven't read of many professionals in aviation safety matters who deny the connection with CRM. Sure, maybe CRM is sometimes a little hippy-dippy and politically correct, but the proof of the pudding seems to be in the eating.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

I am sure many people with better access to data and facts than me would dispute that.

Sadly, Safe Skies International's 'safety by the numbers' pages (the readiest resource to prove my point) are offline at the moment, but when they come back, you may look at the chart depicting accident rate by years following introduction, and you'll see that rates appear to be going up across the board.

What is clear is that technological developments have driven accident numbers down, and the reduction in the general rate is a consequence of the introduction of technology, as, given no technological change, the rate goes up.

That factor, not the introduction of CRM, is responsible for the trend.

[alf5071h]

CRM has had a unique evolution, supposedly changing to meet emerging safety issues in the industry; see ’The evolution of CRM’. (http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/HelmreichLAB/Publications/pubfiles/Pub235.pdf)

I would support some views that CRM training has been ineffective, although there are significant problems with finding a measure of its failure or other wise, particularly with the use of accident rates.

One problem which has been perpetuated in the intervening years is that CRM has focused on the ‘soft’ issues of social interaction at the expense of the potentially more effective thinking skills associated with awareness and decision making.
Team work will improve safety, but you will have a superior team if it is formed with clear thinking individuals who have a good understanding and control of their behaviors. Social CRM is easier to define and train; thus it is easier to meet the training requirements with soft CRM as opposed to cognitive skills training.

What is CRM? The problem posed in this question stems from the issues above, it could be everything to everyone depending on how you cite safety problems or what you wish to achieve.

Everyone professes to know what CRM is for, but few know what it is … somewhat like an upside down bidet!

See the interesting view on ’the reasons for CRM failing’. (www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~johnson/papers/crm/)

[Skunkie]

Personally I think that one of the most important reasons why CRM fails is the too high workload. People both in cockpit and in cabin, are getting more and more stressed by demand of high skills and a lot of hours flying, while their number is continuosly reduced for obvious financial reasons (have you ever wonder why charter companies are not required by law to train their crews on CRM? correct me please if JARs changed about this). This situation leads to a higher risk of incidents/accidents, that's why the rate of them did not suddenly drop down since the introduction of such training: before there where more people and less work, but too many wasting of skills (i.e. chatting during critical phases of flights, fixing on the same warning light instead of collaborate and use two brains and bodies, often total unawareness in the cabin of what was the flight beyond giving meals and coffes and shyness or indifference in communicating to the cockpit...many more examples if you think). Now crews are generally high trained, they know more about working together, both two or more pilots (in commercial aviation also former military pilots must forget they are alone on a plane fighting, where their immediate reaction had to be the right one, no else....I know it was one of the most enjoyable part of a flight -me myself is daughter of previous combat pilot then great commercial captain for 40 years- so let's separate these two aspects, is one of the teaching of CRM) and pilots with cabin crew, they know more about what's going on in the cabin and vs, so they know much better how much they can rely on other's important abilities and thus delegate the right things. But unluckily they are often so overload of duties that they start to- nothing more- than feel tired! Pilots and cabins are not supermen. They become to need rest and when you are in this mood everything else seems to be useless even some right actions, can you imagine attending a session of CRM....such a waste of time!
The problem is the unbalance of resources. Of course, as Kit said, there can't be a lack of training in basics of flight (I won't open another question connected about FBW....I prefer old kind of flying and all pilots who started knowing well "how to ride that bike" I think are of my same opinion) just to give a lot of infos and aknowledge of human factor and...psychology at the end. CRM is very important to be taught by someone really expert on that who also knows very well the environment where it will be applied, and this sometimes doesn't happen, so we see CRM sessios ridicolous and quite useless, just made to follow the law.
I hope time will show us that is fundamental to balance skills (how really to fly) and how to get the best from these skills (how to fly with one other or more pilots and one or more cabin crew in order to delegate the duties in critical moments, and possibly always).

What is CRM....yes everyone professes to know...easy: crew resorce management!....let's try to analize it:
Management= how to use capabilities and skills available
Resources= people, pilots and cabins, with the whole package of their training including their capability to use their own brain (if it was only a matter of switches and joysticks an ape could stay as well in a cockpit....everyone knows lots of funnies about this)
Crew= Captain, F/O, F/E, Purser cabin crew, all other cabin crew......I mean as a team not taken one by one.
I'm pretty sure many of you can give much more effective explanations, this is a basic simple one I personally give, in fact I think that CRM is a lot more. Consider how much you can realize from whatever matter just talking with a couple or more friends who know something about that. It's a sharing of opinions and a way for looking at smtg from a different point of view. It should follow a decision of which is the winning strategy. Of course it must not be taken for granted forever: airplanes change, things evolve, interests of commercial aviation and demand from users change...that's why CRM will never end. It would be just like saying "I learnt how to fly in 1940 so I'm quite experienced now, I can easily fly the newest computerized airplane of 2006, why should I make additional training". The answer comes by itself.

So, if the proof of the pudding it's the eating ;) let's try to digest it using its nutritional power instead of throwing it up!

[vagabond 47]

CRM stands for "Captain Remains Master".

Had the pleasure of sitting in on a round table discussion between Line Jocks from a well healed Saudi Operator and a CRM Rep from one of the 'big four" from the USA (Continental as I rem): a founding prof of the Gentle Art.
Anyway the opening Line from Prof was "CRM......what does it mean to you?"
Ahhhh..........Pilot monitoring.
Ahhhh..........etc,etc,etc

"And Capt Abdullah(20+ yrs with the Company) what does CRM mean to you"?
Followed by an Arabic answer.
"Sir,the English direct translation means THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE ROOSTER ON THE TOP OF THE GARBAGE HEAP".

Dont you just love it?

[flipster]

As one of my students summed it up:

"CRM is a way to appreciate how we come across and interact with others. I am a better person now that I can start to appreciate my own human limitations.
I am NOT perfect ...but this came as a shock! CRM is a life-skill."

Couldn't have put it better myself!

[Centaurus]

Kit d"Rection KG. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. CRM has grown into a cottage industry worth huge bucks to those astute enough to get their nose in the trough.

[Centaurus]

Further to all above. Certain captain was known as a CRM freak and directed his first officers never to say "you are wrong" as it is not nice CRM. On descent in an F28 from Port Moresby to Cairns, F/O notices at transition level the captain has set incorrect QNH for landing. Thinks - How to correct CRM freak without offending him? Brilliant idea. Says: "Excuse me please Sir Captain - one of us has the incorrect QNH - AND IT'S NOT ME."

[chuteless]

Kit d'dRection KG
is correct
we've taken human interaction away from vital controls which is the predominant decrease of accident/incident of aircraft in the last twenty years
CRM is still a predominant factor in reducing any further incidents
Technology gets better, we're still human

lots of love and kisses
chuteless

[flipster]

One rooster on top of heap?

Well, actually, yes .....someone has to be in charge. However, is more about cross-cockpit gradient.

Examples of gradient

Captain/instructor like a 'Victoian Father' v CoPlt like 'cowed son/daughter' - too 'steep' a gradient, I suggest?

Captain like best mate v co pilot 'mate' - too 'flat' a gradient

What is probably better is

Captain as older (caring)brother/sister or uncle/aunt and coplt as the younger bro/sis or nephew/niece.

In this situation, the gradient is not steep but reflects the authority of the capt but as well as the worth and value of the co-pilot.

That's a bit simplistic, I know, but you get the picture. Hopefully, there are not too many victorian dads out there!

There is a good reason for this because sometimes our own behaviour reflects the way in which we first treated. With a victorian dad, the coplt retreats into his/her shell, 'speaks only when spoken too' and can often harbour resentment. NOT GOOD FOR CRM, I think you'd agreee?!

If the captain shows respect and appreciation to the coplt, a genuine 'bond' can form which actually encourages the co to speak up and question things, improving communication and trust - especially in emergencies.

So, it all starts with the person in the RHS (the designated leader) - how YOU behave directly influneces how your FO behaves (and vice-versa, to a much lesser extent).

So, if you aren't getting the behaviour that you want from the other pilot, then perhaps you should question your own behaviour first?