When teaching the IMC course do you log it as IFR? [Archive]

FlyingForFun

22nd Feb 2006, 09:14

As BEage has said, you've got the requirements wrong, and you probably already have the required hours.

However, to answer your question about how to log the time, there are two options. As you have no doubt already discovered, the requirements for teaching instrument flying (whether as an FI teaching IMC or IR, or as standalone IRI) are all expressed in terms of IFR hours, with an alternative of "hours by sole reference to instruments" where one hour by sole reference to instruments counts as 4 hours IFR.

So, option 1 is that you log time by sole reference to instruments. This is simple: if you are in a cloud or under foggles, you are flying by sole reference to instruments. As an instructor, you will obviously not be under foggles, so therefore the only time you can log is when you are in a cloud.

Option 2 is that you log your IFR time, and this is more wooly because you can be IFR just about any time you want to be, so long as you comply with the relevant rules (e.g. 1000' rule, quadrantal rule).

To keep in the spirit of the rule, I log my time as follows: if I arrange my flight in such a way that I am prepared to enter IMC if I happen to encounter IMC, then I log it as IFR. This would include a route from A to B where navigation is soley by instruments and I am happy to enter IMC; it would include any instrument approaches or procedural work whilst teaching for the IMC rating; and it definitely includes any time I am actually in IMC.

If I arrange the flight in such a way as to maintain VMC, then I do not log it as IFR. An example would be teaching partial panel - I will not do partial panel in IMC if I can not see an attitude indicator, therefore I always ensure that I maintain VMC when doing these exercises, and do not log them as IFR.

Nothing wrong with having a flight which is part IFR and part not - for example, a partial panel exercise followed by an instrument approach.

That's my personal take on things, and I think it is within the spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law, but it is open to interpretation. A couple of interpretations which are different to mine, for example: one or two PPRuNers insist that an instructor can not log IFR time if he is not at the controls, but I don't agree with this. Also, all night flying in the UK (unless Special VFR inside a control zone) must be IFR, and according to the letter of the law could (maybe even should) count as IFR flight, but I don't believe that it is within the spirit of the law to log this as IFR flight if you are clearly flying and navigating visually for the entire flight. But, at the end of the day, with the exception of the IRI requirements, you have pretty much met the hours requirements to teach for a rating as soon as you have that rating, so it's all pretty academic because no one else really cares.

FFF
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OZAZTEC

22nd Feb 2006, 11:02

In Australia, and I am sure it will be the same in UK,

Instrument Flight TimeAll flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.

That is only 1 pilot can log instrument time (and the approaches) and during training that will be the student.

Interested to hear other views.

Paul

FlyingForFun

22nd Feb 2006, 11:08

Oz,

Although it's not written down explicitly anywhere, I don't think that is the way the UK rules are intended to be interpreted.

The basis for me saying this is purely down to the requirements for teaching instrument flying, where it is made clear that time can either be logged as "IFR", or "by sole reference to instruments". The fact that time "by sole reference to instruments" is more valuable than "IFR" by a factor of 4 is enough to convince me that it is quite permissable to log "IFR" under circumstances such as when flying in VMC on an IFR flight plan - very different to the way you describe the rules down under.

FFF
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OZAZTEC

22nd Feb 2006, 11:11

I think one of us is missing the point

Whilst training IFR 0nly one person can log the time as "Instrument Flight"
That will normally be the student and the instructor just logs dual and maybe night.

Paul

Say again s l o w l y

22nd Feb 2006, 11:30

Remember the difference between IFR and IMC flying.

You can fly in accordance with IFR in ANY conditions, but to fly in IMC conditions it is in "sole reference to the instruments."

If you are flying a student and you do happen to be in IMC all the time, then you should BOTH log it as so. If however it is a gin clear day and only the student is behind the screens, then they log it as IMC time and you don't, since you are still flying with reference to the outside world and not soley on instruments.

FlyingForFun

22nd Feb 2006, 12:32

Oz,

No, I'm not missing the point. In the UK, both the student and the instructor can log it.

SAS's post described my own interpretation of the rules if you decide to log time by sole reference to instruments.

But I would go even further, and say that if you decide to log IFR time, and are clearly carrying out a flight in accordance with IFR (e.g. practicing instrument approaches), then you may both log the time even on a gin clear day.

FFF
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BEagle

22nd Feb 2006, 16:26

If teaching for the IMC Rating, only the actual time when you, yourself are handling the aeroplane 'by sole reference to instruments' may be logges as 'Instrument Flight Time'. However, the whole flight may be logged for the utterly meaningless JAA 'IFR conditions' purpose.

60 min flight, FI handles ac for 10 minutes by sole reference to instruments, student for 30 min. Assume the whole thing was IFR:

FI: 0:10 min Instrument Flight Time, 1:00 IFR conditions
Student: 0:30 min Instrument Flight Time, 1:00 IFR conditions....

marsman

22nd Feb 2006, 20:33

Thanks for that. Hope Ive not opened a can of worms!

BEagle, you mention in your post that you can count the whole flight as IFR. Is this just because you are flying in accordance with quadrantal rules etc, however what happens if ATC give you a VFR clearance for your training detail? Surley most IMC training is conducted in such conditions. Therefore why do most instructors still log it as an IFR flight when teaching?

BillieBob

22nd Feb 2006, 21:00

I continue to find it incredible (i.e. not believable) that there are people so stupid that they will spend tens of thousands of pounds to gain a qualification but do not understand what that qualification entitles them to do! A clear knowledge of the difference between VFR/VMC and IFR/IMC is, surely, week 1 PPL stuff, the fact that it should be misunderstood in an 'Instructors and Examiners' forum beggars belief!!

DFC

22nd Feb 2006, 21:03

Please remember that JAR-FCL is written for all of Europe. The UK is unique in that it allows non-IR (or IMC Ratng) holders pilots to fly IFR. In fact it is a requirement at night!

While there may be a difference, if one carefully reads JAR-FCL, one will see exactly how the two elements of IFR flying are to be logged and it makes little difference in the end;

In the JAR-FCL logbook, Operational Condition Time is recorded in column 9. This is flight time undertaken at night (night column) or under instrument flight rules (IFR column). Yes it does say IFR and not IMC so log IFR time and not just IMC time.

However, The remarks column is to be used to record among other things "instrument flight time" and JAR-FCL makes it clear that "A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

Thus the pilot who does lots of IFR flying in VMC (at night in the UK for example) will not have any instrument flight time recorded in the remarks column. The instructor teaching IMC while the flight retmains VMC would be in the same category. However, If the flight is in IMC the the pilot in command must log instrument flight time because after all, who else in the aircraft is qualified to act as crew member in IMC? Anything less would to be making a false record of the flight i.e. trying to say that the flight was VMC with the student under the hood when actually it was in cloud.

To put it another way, if I read an instructor's logbook and it records an IMC course training flight with a student but does not record any instrument time then from that entry I am being told that the flight remained in VMC even if it was under IFR.

Regards,

DFC

BEagle

22nd Feb 2006, 21:13

'Operating' means you must be controlling the aeroplane yourself. Whether the input device is a control column or AFS FCU is immaterial. But you may NOT log 'instrument flight time' for monitoring a student's 'hands-on' time.

BillieBob

22nd Feb 2006, 21:48

BEagle, you really don't listen, do you? I have told you before that, whatever your own prejudices, the UK CAA will accept as 'instrument flight time', for the purpose of complying with the requirements of JAR-FCL, any time spent by an instructor conducting instrument flight training in IMC, whether or not he is handling the controls. You may not like it but it's a fact.

marsman

22nd Feb 2006, 21:55

just wait a minute

I thought the instructor who was actually flying (at the controls) could only log time in actual instrument conditions, but both student and instructor could log the flight as an IFR one.

Can some one for clarity please state all the IFR rules that must be obeyed in order for the flight to be IFR

BEagle

22nd Feb 2006, 22:55

BillieBob, despite your patronising comments, the last information I had from the Authority was that the interpretation placed upon the rules by a certain senior Staff Examiner was at variance with the requirements of JAR-FCL. And judging by their recent record on policy conflict with the JAA, that's not surprising.

Not my 'prejudice' - just obvious sense. Claiming instrument flight time as your own when you are monitoring the efforts of others - as you continue to trot out - is patently absurd.

Looking forward to the dust up which is coming on Friday over the utter crock which is the CAA's effort to rush in the daft MPL - another of your pet loves....

Perhaps yours is that TRTO which has already submitted a proposed course breakdown for this nonsense?

Say again s l o w l y

23rd Feb 2006, 07:19

As the PIC on an instrument training flight in IMC, I may not be manipulating the controls for the whole thing, but I am still on instruments myself. If we exoanded the argument further using your logic BEagle, none of us should log any time when we are with a student, but we aren't actually flying the machine.

At all times no matter what the conditions, we must be ready to take control, we are monitoring and keeping ourselves in the loop.

How would you define someone on a Cat 3 approach? Afterall, you aren't allowed to hand fly the thing under these conditions and yet you are solid IMC down to the deck, should you not log the IMC time?

Personally I think these arguments slightly spurious, since unless the CAA has an exact track of each flight and an exact copy of the weather at the time, who can actually judge whether you were IMC or not? People could claim for anything and there is no way of checking.

BEagle

23rd Feb 2006, 09:24

"As the PIC on an instrument training flight in IMC, I may not be manipulating the controls for the whole thing, but I am still on instruments myself. If we exoanded the argument further using your logic BEagle, none of us should log any time when we are with a student, but we aren't actually flying the machine."

No - of course you log all the flight time of any instructional flight because, as the FI, you are PIC. You might consider yourself 'on instruments' but you are not controlling the aeroplane in the example you quote.

"At all times no matter what the conditions, we must be ready to take control, we are monitoring and keeping ourselves in the loop."

You are PIC. If you take control, you commence your own instrument flight time at that point. Do you expect the student to log it as well because he/she is watching you? Of course not.

"How would you define someone on a Cat 3 approach? Afterall, you aren't allowed to hand fly the thing under these conditions and yet you are solid IMC down to the deck, should you not log the IMC time?"

You are controlling the aeroplane through an interface device. In this situation it is the AFS FCU which you are physically handling rather than the control column. 'Hand flying' is irrelevant.

"Personally I think these arguments slightly spurious, since unless the CAA has an exact track of each flight and an exact copy of the weather at the time, who can actually judge whether you were IMC or not? People could claim for anything and there is no way of checking."

Quite so. Whilst flying is assessed by alleged experience rather than by competency-based assessment, there will always be people trying to cheat the system. Those who claim spurious IMC time are merely cheating themselves and their lack of real experience will eventually become obvious.

DFC

23rd Feb 2006, 10:11

marsman,

Can some one for clarity please state all the IFR rules that must be obeyed
in order for the flight to be IFR

It is not simply about checking that the flight just happened to comply with the IFR rules - many VFR flights by day in VMC would qualify. My checks on a logbook with IFR time recorded would check;

Valid IMC or IR (night qualification for night outside controlled airspace in the UK).

Recency - sufficient instrument time in the past 28 days not to fall foul of the CAAs recomendation on instrument currency - ignoring that little gem could say something about attitude and what your plan was if you ended up in extended IMC. If the answer is that it was a 8/8 blue day or that you would avoid IMC then the entry should not be IFR.

The IFR flight rules were appropriate for the flight - not flying with a student on a cross country exercise for example.

Remember that your logbook is like writing a diary- it says more about you than a simple list of flights.

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BEagle,

The JAR-FCL uses the term operating. It says nothing about controlling.

It is obvious from the logbook entry that the flight was an instructional flight and that a student was doing their best.

Have a look at these logbook entries;

Pilot 1

EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 PIC 0100 Instructor 0100 Remarks-IMC training Pilot 2

Pilot 2

EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 Dual 0100 Remarks-Instrument flight time 0045, IMC training, pilot 1 signature.

The above flight was conducted in VMC because the Pilot in command did not record that the aircraft was operated by sole reference to instruments at any time. One can deduce from reading both entries together that the student was in simulated IMC (hood/screens).

Another example;

Pilot 1

EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 PIC 0100 Instructor 0100 Remarks-Instrument flight time 0030 IMC training Pilot 2

Pilot 2

EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 Dual 0100 Remarks-Instrument flight time 0045, IMC training, pilot 1 signature.

The above is the same flight with one big difference - for 30 minutes the flight was in IMC and the pilot in command was operating the aircraft by sole reference to instruments.

Can you suggest an alternative method to determine from logbook entries that the flight was legal?

Regards,

DFC

Say again s l o w l y

23rd Feb 2006, 10:33

In a way I am still controlling the a/c, through the student rather than through an autopilot.
I will always log anytime I'm having to use instruments alone to see what the machine is doing as IMC. It doesn't matter whether I'm actually touching the controls or not, since I'm still the a/c commander and responsible for the safe passage of flight. I have no other way to orientate myself and unless I fall asleep (a very real prospect on your 5th time round a hold...) I'm monitoring and controlling the flight by SOLE reference.
If the student mucks it up, I am guiding them by instruction rather than just simply grabbing the controls and correcting the error myself. How is that any different?

Dr Eckener

23rd Feb 2006, 10:37

DFC is spot on.

How many times do you have to wheel out your 'issues' with this one Beagle?

BEagle

23rd Feb 2006, 10:44

Suggest you check the definition of Instrument Flight Time in LASORS 2006 Section A Appendix A:

Instrument flight time: Time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments

Cheat all you like and claim all the spurious time you like as far as I'm concerned - it is all utterly worthless.

Say again s l o w l y

23rd Feb 2006, 10:46

That's a bit emotive there BEag's old chap. There's no cheating going on, just a difference in opinion. If I thought I was doing anything naughty, I wouldn't do it and to be totally honest, why would I bother? It's not as if a couple of hours IF makes any difference to the log book anymore.

Where's the definition of controlling in relation to an FI? If we want to get all pi**-ant about it.

Dr Eckener

23rd Feb 2006, 11:21

Controlling - have power over, limit, or regulate. According to the Oxford dictionary. Pretty much defines the role of an FI as aircraft commander as I see it.

Noone is cheating by logging time as described by DFC. For some reason you have a personal issue with it though. Just accept your interpretation is wrong and move on!

AerocatS2A

24th Feb 2006, 02:11

They way some of you are interpreting this, the Captain of a multi-crew aircraft would be able to log IMC for sectors that the FO flew, is that the case (after all, they are the PiC)?

Say again s l o w l y

24th Feb 2006, 08:04

No, I don't believe that to be the case. Even though the non-handling pilot is PIC, the FO is a rated pilot in their own right so doesn't need monitoring in the same way as a student.

In most multi crew ops, the handling pilot monitors the auto pilot and the non handling pilot keeps an overview, but gets on with other tasks aswell.If the handling pilot is flying manually, then it's a different scenario and the PNF's primary task is to monitor the PF.

In essence it's like having 3 crew on board if the auto-pilot is in.

It is complicated if you want to make it so, but unless I get some guidance from the Belgrano saying I'm doing something wrong I see my interpretation as being correct.

FlyingForFun

24th Feb 2006, 08:23

I made the point a lot earlier on in the thread, but I'll make it again now:

Who cares?!?

So far as I am aware, the only time there is a requirement for a certain number of hours of IMC or IFR is when you remove the No Applied Instrument Instruction from your instructor rating (in which case you almost certainly have the required number of hours by virtue of the course you did to get the rating for which you will be teaching), or when you apply to become an IRI.

So, as an FI who already has the restriction removed, I don't think it matters exactly what I log with regards to IFR or IMC.

I would guess that the only people who would care what I log from now on would be future employers. And if I were to ever be interviewed by, say, BEagle for a job, and he has a different view on how to log the time than I do, surely I could show him the amount of IFR time I claim and explain to him what is included in that time, and since I have explained it to him he could not consider me to be fraudulent?

FFF
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LEVC

24th Feb 2006, 09:27

Just a thought, if you are instructing IMC and you are in imc condiions i take it this fliht time can be logged as flown by sole refference to the instruments, and since you are instructing you are the PIC, i take it you should log it as such, and wether you are or not touching the controls is irrelevant from my point o view.

otherwise no instructor should log any flight time at wich he instructing but is not handflying himself, it is just nonsense.

DFC

24th Feb 2006, 11:23

The whole question about controlling or touching the controls is simply a red herring. I have completed many flights solo IFR IMC in GA aircraft with no autopilot where thanks to the conditions, I trimmed the aircraft and simply sat back and monitored everyting for quite a period of time. Was I controlling the aircraft?

As soon as one leaves the training environment where it is guaranteed to be "IMC" for the flight, the whole idea of logging instrument flight time is more than a bit wolly. On the majority of IFR flights there will be periods of VMC flight.

It is always going to be a judgement issue- "I think that we were actual IMC for about 30 minutes on that flight" and so on. Thus it is never going to be an exact science and one could argue that the CAA's mothod of using a factor of 4 if claiming instrument flight time to have the instrument instruction removed leaves it more open to "parker pen flying" than the simple 200 hours IFR that JAA requires.

Regards,

DFC

GusHoneybun

24th Feb 2006, 15:28

I would tend to agree with the consensus that totalling the amount of time spent IFR is superfluous. Tells naff all. Zip. Nada.
The whole system needs to be reviewed as well. For the removal of Applied Instruments is laughable anyway. Minimum 200 hours IFR time to teach an IR. Let me think, 50 Hours for your initial IR course, which, by definition is all by sole reference to instruments. So multiply time by 4 and bingo, 200 hours IFR and off you skip merrily to the CAA. I doubt that any instructor will be able to teach a full IR with that level of experience.

You're logbook is a record of your flying experience and as a result should reflect this. Logging time spent at FL45 flying up to your grannies for tea as IFR says nothing about your experience. Now, if this trip was in solid IMC and a bit of icing and a dash of turbulence thrown in, well then the situation is different. Your workload will be measureably higher and chances are you will have learnt something.

I think that DFC has raised quite a pertinent point about when to log. As someone who spends time zooming around Single Pilot IFR obviously I spend (specially this time of year) a preportion of my time IMC. Now, as a Single Pilot, cockpit workload dictates that I have and use an autopilot. I say autopilot, it's only really holds height and heading, no fancy stuff. So, what then? I am flying by sole reference to instruments, monitoring hawklike the autopilot, yet I am not directly manipulating the controls. By certain peoples arguments I am not flying on instruments. Well, if I'm not, then who the heck is!!!

Taking this argument a step further. Remove the word autopilot and insert the word co-pilot. Flying on instruments, monitoring the other pilot, but not manipulating the controls. I still think that this is valid time on instruments and will log that accordingly.
And naturally, if not more so, this also applies witho students. You are also on instruments making sure they don't stuff it into the nearest hill. You are not at the controls, but I bet you would be pretty damn quick if it all started going pear shaped.

So, my points are that IFR time in the logbook is useless. If you are in IMC and you are a required member of crew then I would log that as time on instruments.

The above being the case is there was a suitable column in the logbook.:(

Whopity

24th Feb 2006, 16:22

"When teaching the IMC course do you log it towards IFR flight time?"

In accordance with Art 35 you log what you are doing however there is no requirement to log IFR, only Instrument Flight time which is described in JAR-FCL1.001.

Its your personal log and you can enter whatever you want however; whether anyone else accepts it for anything is another matter. You require a certain amount for an ATPL issue thereafter, Instrument time in the log is of little use for anything. If you were an airline pilot hoping to be an IRI only that flight time that was clearly IFR would be accepted toward the 800 hours requirred. In the case of a FI you only need 50 hours Flight by Sole Reference to Instruments to teach for an IR. By the time you have met all the other requirements to teach for an IR you could not possibly have insufficient hours.

So if you want to log IFR, assuming you were operating IFR then there is nothing to stop you but it really isn't a lot of use and most log books don't even have a column for it.

AerocatS2A

24th Feb 2006, 23:55

Taking this argument a step further. Remove the word autopilot and insert the word co-pilot. Flying on instruments, monitoring the other pilot, but not manipulating the controls. I still think that this is valid time on instruments and will log that accordingly.

No, when flying multi-crew only one person may log IMC (or IF as it's called over here.) That person is the pilot flying. Our own rules are quite clear that IMC is to be logged when you are either flying by sole reference to the instruments or you are the pilot manipulating the autopilot at the time. It can not be logged if the FO is the pilot flying, and you, as the Captain, are monitoring him. Partly because the pilot not flying isn't normally monitoring the flight path of the aircraft. The whole point is to have one pilot flying and the other doing the rest of the stuff like radio calls and paper work. Sure they monitor when they can, but it is not their role.

This is not necessarily analogous to a student/instructor situation (which I've realised since my last post.)

DFC

25th Feb 2006, 21:24

It can not be logged if the FO is the pilot flying, and you, as the Captain, are monitoring him. Partly because the pilot not flying isn't normally monitoring the flight path of the aircraft. The whole point is to have one pilot flying and the other doing the rest of the stuff like radio calls and paper work. Sure they monitor when they can, but it is not their role.
This is not necessarily analogous to a student/instructor situation (which I've realised since my last post.)

When I sit in the left seat and the pilot in the right seat is flying the aircraft, you can guarantee that I am very actively monitoring the flight path of the aircraft. It is one of the most important parts of situational awareness. I may be on the radio talking to company while the FO continues to deal with ATC but I never ever loose track of where the aircraft is travelling or how it is configured.

Regards,

DFC

AerocatS2A

25th Feb 2006, 23:32

So do you log your FOs IMC as yours then?

And have you ever got up to go to the toilet or something?

DFC

27th Feb 2006, 12:27

Physiological beaks are well covered in the ops manual. As is the recording of flight time and the experience required for training post holders.

It is safe to say that how hours are logged in the case of a B747 flight crew for example will have little relevance to the discussion regarding teaching of IMC and IR elements in single pilot aircraft.

Remember that a multi pilot IR does not confer any single pilot privileges.

Thus my comments previously about what is logged stand.

We do not carry a stop watch that is started when we enter IMC, paused when we exit and then re-started on going IMC again etc etc! The recording of instrument flight time is very much down to judgement and memory. It is also very hard to check. The recording of IFR time however is easy and can be easily checked after the event.

Regards,

DFC

AerocatS2A

27th Feb 2006, 12:49

Your rules may well be different from ours. Ours are quite clear. Only one person may log IMC at any one time. Therefore, if the FO is the pilot flying for a sector, and the Captain does not take-over the flying duties at any time, he must not log any IMC time.

Multi IMC does count towards your single pilot currency here as well, different countries, different rules obviously.

BEagle

28th Feb 2006, 16:11

You mean to say the sun doesn't always shine in Oz?

GusHoneybun

28th Feb 2006, 18:22

Our own rules are quite clear that IMC is to be logged when you are either flying by sole reference to the instruments or you are the pilot manipulating the autopilot at the time.

If them there are your rules then them there are your rules. However, in the UK this is open to interpretation and as we can see from the above posts, this is down to the individual.

The whole point is to have one pilot flying and the other doing the rest of the stuff like radio calls and paper work. Sure they monitor when they can, but it is not their role.

Um, I take it you've not done a whole lot of multi crew flying then?