Best advice when your airways ATCer gets really cross with you?

[Kak Klaxon]

Last week I heard a latcc control giving a crew a very hard time with non standard RT and an angry voice,made me laugh at first but probably upset the crew who were getting the lashing.

If the crew then went on to make a mistake would ATC not be partly guilty?

As a pilot I think ATCers provide an excelent service under a lot of stress and forgive a hell of a lot of mistakes BUT i would not give my FOs an enroute bolloc*ing because I want them thinking about their job not the past.

System works both ways and I guess when you get an angry pilot it could put you off too.

So if you are getting an ATC lashing what should you do? ask for a different controler,second opinion or just take it and hope you get a freq change sooner rather than later.

[Del Prado]

or just take it and hope you get a freq change sooner rather than later.

That's probably your best bet. What else can you do?
Whenever I'm tempted to get angry with a crew I think how I'd feel if I was a passenger on that aircraft.

If a crew have done something really bad, surely a phone call or even reporting action would be a better bet than losing the rag.

[Lon More]

Totally unprofessional, however you don't know the entire background. If it was something like instructed to turn left and the turn was made to the right I think I would probably have been more than a bit miffed.
As Del Prado said, a phone call, of a report after landing would be better.Best thing though would be a visit to the unit involved - also re-instatement of the fam. flight programme for controllers.
BTW, if you are going to make a report it would be nice to advise this on the frequency as you are QSYed.

[County Boy]

I've never thought it a good idea to give out tellings-off on the frequency, if it's that important a thing someone has done wrong there's always the telephone afterwards when everyone's had a chance to calm down. To be fair though there are two sides to this, i've experienced many needless impatient and sarcastic comments from crews and it can really make you boil inside sometimes when all you're doing is your best.

[paulthornton]

I learnt one important lesson whilst gettimg my PPL by having a bit of a disagreement with Sydney departures on-air; between the controller and I, a clearance seemed ambiguous and I thought one thing and they thought another.

After trying to debate my point a couple of times, both sides digging into their position, I thought better of it (I just imagined all those QF pilots sniggering at the verbal ping-pong going on) and decided that politeness was the order of the day.

What did I learn? Firstly, even if you are slightly unsure about what ATC want, ask them; and secondly both halves of the pilot / ATC equation need to remember that we both want an easy and safe flight without any on-frequency verbal lashings. It didn't help them or me to continue the conversation as it was - and when I left their control I thanked the (same) controller profusely for their help, and they were equally polite back. Maybe there is a lesson in here for some of the more hot-headed ATPLs out there...

I have, however, so far avoided upsetting LATCC and thoroughly intend to keep it that way :D

Paul.

[Pierre Argh]

I agree, of course emotions shouldn't be vented ober the airwaves... and a call after the event is, of course, the best action... but ATC is a stressful business, and its oh so difficult to remain calm when your spacing is shot to pieces and you have to completely reorganise your recovery pattern...

Avoid it when you can, but heck we're only human (and I'm sure the other pilot's love to hear someone else getting a blast... and it explains why they're about to get dicked around)

[Scott Voigt]

In an perfect world we would all be cordial to each other and everyone would do everything correctly. However, we are far from a perfect world in aviation, and there are times when some folks just have had enough with stupid pilot tricks and do erupt on the freq. Should they? No, but it does happen, and something for the flight crews to think about, would they rather get a verbal lashing that lasts a couple of seconds or instead just have us write the crew up for doing something wrong and then getting to sit on the ground for a few months when the lic. is revoked? You guys really don't want us to write up everytime pilots mess up...

regards

Scott

[West Coast]

And when its just a pissy controller with no violation involved? That's about 99.9% of the time when there's a problem.


"getting to sit on the ground for a few months when the lic. is revoked?"

Even if you wanted, your gonna have to work awfully hard to get my certs.
Unless I do it intentionally(little chance of that), I'll get by. Thanks for the the threat however.

I'd say I would have an easier time getting you time off w/o pay than the other way around.

[BDiONU]

Just a point of pedantry, there has been no such place as LATCC since early in 2002 when the New Centre at Swanwick opened. What was LATCC based at West Drayton became two geographically separate centres. LATCC stood for London Area and Terminal Control Centre, the Area element moved to Swanwick and became the LACC (London Area Control Centre) and what was left at West Drayton was LTCC (London Terminal Control Centre). Late next year LTCC will move into part of the building at Swanwick and eventually West Drayton will close. In 2012 (ish) TC will merge with the AC operation to form one big happy controlling family again, like what it was before they split years ago :-)

BD

[MancBoy]

2012?

I'd heard it was a soon as you guys get down here that we'll be working together.

The best thing would be if ,for example, Daventry sector were actually sat next to TC Midlands, etc. This would improve presentation between sectors and help to keep relations "rosy".

[songbird29]

Good advice given above, don't argue on the frequency, sort it out on telephone later.
Reminds me to an incident many moons ago, when PanAmerican was still flying and I was an active controller. Area control, the sector south of the airport. The Clipper took off, off-peak TMA did not need him and I got him directly on my freq after take off in northerly direction. I saw nothing turning south for quick identification on the radar screen, so squawk ident. Still nothing where the aircraft was expected to be, only a thick ident of an aircraft heading north. Could not be my one, or could it? Asking to squawk ident once more, the pilot replied : ehr, control, I'm sorry, afraid we made a mistake of 180°, turning south to the SID now if you approve, hope we didn't put you in too many difficulties.
Quick coordination with APP as well as north and east sectors, as the aircraft was rapidly climbing. Luckily we could all take it with a relieved smile, in particular thanks to the attitude of the pilots admitting their mistake before I as the controller would be tempted to rap them over their knuckles on the freq. Even a tel con after the flight wasn't necessary anymore let alone an official report.
I realise it wouldn't work in all circumstances, certainly not when it is about misinterpretations, but this incident may show how to prevent/stop a nasty exchange of words on overloaded frequencies.

[throw a dyce]

A few years back a particularly pissy CPA pilot called me ''A Jerk'' on the Ground freq in HongKong.This particular person couldn't understand that he was no4 for pushback in a very crowded corner.In fact if he pushed, he would have hit others.
The good thing was after he called me ''A Jerk'' another CPA pilot said''No you're the Jerk''.But what the guy didn't realise that once I got him pushed,a bit earlier with some nifty pushbacks,he then sat on the taxiway while everyone else sailed past him.Ended up no 14 at the hold.Was I bothered NO:rolleyes:
You couldn't phone there and discuss it as Management would never support the Controller.Way it was :*

[BDiONU]

2012?
I'd heard it was a soon as you guys get down here that we'll be working together.
The best thing would be if ,for example, Daventry sector were actually sat next to TC Midlands, etc. This would improve presentation between sectors and help to keep relations "rosy".

In the fullness of time! There is no space in the current AC Ops room to squeeze in TC as well. So their operation is going into a part of the 'spare' Ops room. When CASPIAN 2 comes along and we have the opportunity to fit more Controller Working Positions in the AC Ops room then both areas will be combined. Might possibly be 2014 until TC combines because the AC staff have to be trained to operate CASPIAN and transition across to it. Then the TC staff will be trained. I think its simply too large a task to train 2 very large workforces at once.

BD

[055166k]

Kak Klaxon
Make a note of time and frequency [or channel]
Do not respond in same manner
After landing attempt to contact relevant unit directly or via dest ATC unit and ask for tape to be impounded for investigation.
.....and just in case the request gets lost....brief details on voyage report.
No excuse for that!
By the way...what's all this stress stuff? This job's only as hard a you make it

[MancBoy]

BD.

erm, i work in the ac ops room and know full well where the tc ops room is gonna be thanks.

[SM4 Pirate]

There's a great audio clip "Ding Dong" out there somewhere; it's a classic tale from the states; the ATC does take it a little far...

Anyone got an MP3 of it to post? We used to play it to all the newbies as a little lesson in how not to enhance ATC-Pilot relations.

Sometimes a little thought before engaging mouth helps; for example I tell the next sector to slow up and aircraft for my sequence (usually only done when delay is 7+ minutes); the pilot calls me asking for direct tracking and high speed descent because the they are running late... I also like, telling the next sector minimum speed on XXX123 the aircraft calls and I say turn left, the pilot says, we could slow up some more... What exactly does the word "minimum" mean?

However, that said, I always try to stay professional over the Air Ground even if I think something really stupid just happened. I will however, let some of the ATCs around me what just happened... Usually some choice words flow when circumstances are right; more cursing other ATCs when they give dodgy coordination (usually including a dodgy traffic resolution) than the pilot to controller stuff.

Best advice if you ever encounter someone grumpy or tearse is ignore it act professional and get on with it. Asking for antoher ATC is likely to enhace the tension not resolve it. Most units will not have another ATC to get in, if they did it could still well be ten minutes before the spare body is found and is able to take over.

[veloo maniam]

Hi guys..the magic word in ATC is either I'm sorry or apologies. 31 years in ATC and these two words has done wonders for me. Face it, we all make mistakes. If we didn't then we all would be walking on water. Whenever I got angry, my assistant would take over n will advise me to calm down (this is a silent agreement I make with my assistant when I am behind the mike). Likewise I'll do the same to him or her if there is some argument between two adjacent centres.We have a lot of young controllers who don't understand the workload in a cockpit.I don't want a crew to leave my freq with a troubled mind.I hope it helps in some way.thanks.greetings from Lumpur Control Malaysia.

[andrepilota]

I have a frozen ATPL but for the time being i m an ATCO (area radar,and proud of being it :ok: )...

I live abroad,and all the times that i fly home i try to get in the cockpit,and most of the time i succeed (thanks to my ATCO id ;) )

In my UAC we used to have lots of fam programs with airlines,but after 9/11 almost everything had been cancelled....

we r slowly restarting it (i`ve personally been in the 737 sim at VEX in brussels) but still it happens really rarely and only for very few people;
i ve been impressed by the job that those guys are doing (even having a rough idea of what to expect)and also simply in a normal flight we have the chance to see what goes on between CPt and FO...

same story the other way around,we ve had pilots from KLM visiting our center,and we ve kept them next to our ATCO on the position for a couple of hours to let them see what the real job is from our side,and later,they ve gone in the sim to try and work as ATCO themselves.....
boy that was fun!!!:}

i`d love to have more fam flights,as well as more fam visits of pilots to our center,we all have to get along in the sky ,but still it happens that someone gets pissed off....

at least we all have an idea of what the other person`s job looks like,i think we ll all think twice before starting complaining on the freq....

cheers guys.

[Pierre Argh]

By the way...what's all this stress stuff? This job's only as hard a you make it I'm not complaining, jus' explaining...

When I have control of human resources, can rely on the equipment working as advertised, on pilots sticking to their flight plans, the weather being as forecast etc, etc, etc... then I'll accept "the job is only as hard as you make it"

[bekolblockage]

Throw a dyce
No more Mr. Nice Guy, eh?
Lucky he didn't really p1ss you off otherwise I daresay you would have sent him via A, N and J for 25.:}

[throw a dyce]

Bekol,
A real bit of taxiing practise? :E It was the talk of the DBplaza for a while.Makes a change from Dogs,Babies and £50K Golf Carts:eek:
SEE U JIMMY

[av8boy]

veloo... The idea of the pilot apologizing has its place... I've always told my pilot friends that, in the case of something minor, a reply to the controller along the lines of "I'm sorry. I must have misunderstood" goes a long way. That having been said, I would encourage everybody (pilots and controllers alike) to beware assuming all of the blame in an effort to defuse the situation if the error is one which may lead to certificate action. In such a case your confession is right there on tape, whether or not you truly were to blame.

However, as a fundamental rule, there should be no tongue-lashing on the radio. I accept Scott's contention that we're all human and subject to emotional outbursts from time to time, but you need to un-key the mic before spewing venom. Having been a union rep, I've represented controllers before the facility manager when corrective action has been taken against the controller on the basis of such an outburst. In these cases I've been an excellent advocate for the controller and used just this sort of reasoning. However, speaking to the controller one-on-one, I've never hesitated to say, "What the hell were you thinking? Knock that **** off!" Almost 30 years ago now, my first ATC trainer told me that controlling aircraft comes down to having a kit full of tools that you're skilled in using, and then selecting the right tool for a given task. It is my position that an angry outburst should not be in that kit.

I've preached this before on this forum, and I'll say it again: when a seasoned pilot or controller screws up it's almost NEVER because he or she is stupid or careless or intent upon being a problem. If any of you would like to witness what it's REALLY like to work with someone who simply follows poorly-developed instinct without regard for rules or common sense I will be happy to lend you my 18 year old son. There is a stark contrast between that experience and the simple errors made by professional aviators. Trust me.

Scott, I don't mean to pick on you here, but a couple of other things (while I'm ranting)... First, you make a point about the controller having had enough with stupid pilot tricks. I understand that. However, doesn't that imply that the controller let a bunch of problems slide by without dealing with them, only to let it all erupt on the guy he happened to be working when he reached the end of his rope? That sort of thing doesn't work in marriage and it doesn't work in aviation. It'll eat a hole in your stomach and ruin what would have been a salvageable career (or relationship). On top of that, it simply isn't fair to the guy who bears the brunt of the outrage which had been fed by pilots he didn't even know. Second, I think the "verbal lashing" versus certificate action dilemma is false. As Westie pointed-out, the vast majority of these things will not result in a loss of certificate for the pilot, and as I'm now pointing-out, the verbal lashing is not acceptable. However, there are a large number of tools in between. We just have to remember to use them (and that can be very hard to do when you're upset). Finally, we really don't need to be "cordial." Being civil is not only enough--it is essential.

Westie... And when its just a pissy controller with no violation involved? That's about 99.9% of the time when there's a problem... Thanks for the the threat however.... etc, etc...
Now YOU'RE just lashing-out. You're eloquent. I've seen it before. You didn't need to take a chunk out of Scott like that. I just think you could have done this in a more constructive manner.

To everyone then, disagree with me if you like, but when I hear another controller taking a chunk out of a pilot, that controller and I are going to have a chat. That's the benefit of having done this for so long... I can talk to everybody as a peer. And just in case I haven't been clear, I'm not simply going to tell that controller to keep his or her mouth shut. I'm going to say that this sort of unprofessional behavior suggests to me that some introspection is in order, and that a more productive method of dealing with the anger or frustration might be a good idea. In any case, this sort of outburst makes it harder for controller and pilot alike to do a safe, efficient job.

I've gone on long enough. Sorry about being so verbose...

Dave

[Scott Voigt]

Dave;

My talking with pilots is not taking a chunk out of them, but some may think so. I try to "educate" on freq if I can. Some may take it as a verbal lashing, but it isn't meant to be. I see them doing something wrong and try to fix it. It is something that as both a safety rep, and an aviation safety conselor take seriously. As to the tone of some, after the XXX amount of folks to get it wrong and getting chewed out by the pilot because I don't accept a readback without a call sign, is basicly what I am talking about... We could talk more <G>...

regards

Scott

[John Doe II]

Kak Klaxon
System works both ways and I guess when you get an angry pilot it could put you off too.


Not really, tell him to put it in writing to management :E