Collision Risks?

[booke23]

It has struck me recently, that alot of pilots I know who fly out of smaller airfrields with no atsu seem to take off, head into the open FIR without even a thought given to calling a radar unit for Flight information or radar information service.....despite the fact that in my case there are at least 3 radar units able to cover the said area.

Perhaps even more disturbing is that alot of these guys don't even switch their transponders on....so even if I am under a FIS/RIS its possible the controller may not have radar contact with potential conflicting traffic.

Don't get me wrong....I'm all for getting up there among the clouds with no radio etc and having a gay old time. (I used to enjoy this pastime myself when I lived in a remote northern location!) But the fact is that in Southern parts of the country, traffic density in uncontrolled airspace is so high these days that there are real collision risks.

I think it would be nice if everyone at least had their transponder switched on (preferably with mode C on) to give radar units a chance to perhaps give another aircraft recieving a service from them avoiding action. Even give the local radar unit a call to make yourself known....the R/T practise may even be benificial.

Its wise to remember that by making yourself more visable not only safeguards others, but also yourself......a mid-air will in all probability, result in all involved getting killed.

[Andy_R]

When flying VMC/VFR...........................


Lookout!!

Lookout!!

Lookout!!



With Mono on this one.......... or I would have been if he hadn't removed his post whilst I was writing this one :p

[englishal]

I only bother to call them if I am enroute somewhere with a plan. Otherwise I take off (on the edge of a MATZ) depart and don't talk to a sausage.....It's a whole new way of flying to me, and I must say it is very enjoyable....;)

[robin]

>>>>Perhaps even more disturbing is that alot of these guys don't even switch their transponders on....so even if I am under a FIS/RIS its possible the controller may not have radar contact with potential conflicting traffic.<<<<

It is more likely they do have radar contact with conflicting or 'pop-up' traffic. It is possible that they may not be in radio contact, either because they are non-radio or because they are working another frequency. Some of us don't fly with transponders as we don't have sufficient power available for a radio, GPS and transponder.

The answer is the same - in the open FIR you keep your eyes open.

[shortstripper]

Perhaps even more disturbing is that alot of these guys don't even switch their transponders on....so even if I am under a FIS/RIS its possible the controller may not have radar contact with potential conflicting traffic.

Some may not even have transponders! :eek: :E

SS

[gasax]

Rather than worrying about the nearly infinitesimal risk that collision poses I would suggest you concentrate on landings, avoiding controlled flight into terrain and takeoffs. All strangely are almost fully under the control of the pilot and collectively account for just about all accidents in light aircraft.

If you honestly think that a FIS or RIS is going to stop you bumping into someone you are likely to be sadly disillusioned. The vast majority of 'near hits' occur in controlled traffic environments and are usually down to pilots poor situational awareness.

At the end of the day it is VFR

As the others have already piled in - Look out of the windows. After all why else do you fly?

Happy landings

[IO540]

This whole business of mid-air risk is massively overdone.

Apart from close to airfields (e.g. the Stapleford/Wellesbourne sunny Sunday free for all :O ) it is as close to zero as one can get. In an aircraft with infinite endurance, etc, you could fly on random trajectories, above the MSA obviously, blindfold, and it is 99% sure you would die of old age before hitting something. This includes doing it in controlled airspace, too.....

Contrary to the old school, a lookout doesn't do much because a target on a genuine collission course will be a stationary point in the sky and probably won't be spotted. In the context of straight line flight, "lookout" is an illusion. Probably works well with gliders and other traffic that goes around and around.

An FIS ("seven aircraft known in the area") is worthless for this purpose.

As gasax says, better to work on not smashing the plane on landing, or into the side of a hill :O

I do think Mode C should be mandatory everywhere, for all powered aircraft. Then, an RIS would be a lot more useful.

[Yorks.ppl]

I always seek a RIS or if not FIS when ever its available, its not an "either or" between lookout and FIS & RIS, common sense says it should be both where possible. Listening for information doesn't affect lookout but it might help you look in the right direction.
I know the chance of a midair is slim , but I cant see any reason not to make a little slimmer if I can.

[IO540]

The basic point is that no matter what service you get, you will fail to spot the majority of the traffic that is actually there.

Partly this is because (and this is in the RIS context) so many people don't have or don't use transponders so the ATC has to pass you traffic which is vertically nowhere near you.

Partly this is because most people don't talk to their FIS frequency, or to anybody. Just as well because if they all did, London Info would immediately collapse. Let's say LI says "15 planes in your area". So what? In reality there will be at least 50. You are keeping a lookout anyway. You can't keep a more vigorous lookout, and information which cannot be acted on effectively is useless.

I know this stuff id drummed into our heads during the PPL, but so are so many other myths that have been propagating in the GA rumour mill since WW1.

[SkyHawk-N]

I was once on a VFR flight on a very nice sunny day and was under RIS. I got a call telling me of traffic directly ahead of me 3 miles, no height information. I looked and looked but couldn't see anything. A minute later a call came in telling me it was now 1 mile ahead, I looked everywhere but still couldn't see it. I was getting a bit concerned at this point as I am usually quite good at spotting others so I kept scanning the sky ahead, to the sides and even slightly behind. Suddenly I looked straight UP and saw a glider not very far away flying in exactly the same direction at about the same speed :eek: , from the ground it would have looked like we were flying in formation. I made an immediate course and altitude change as the glider pilot would never have known I was there.

If it hadn't been for the constant RIS notifications, even though their distances were slightly out, I MAY have never seen the other aircraft.

Draw from this what you will.

Skyhawk.

[Yorks.ppl]

I think perhaps peoples opinions vary depending on the quality of service they have recieved. As IO540 says "15 planes in your area" is hardly helpfull

However "trafic 12 oclock position reciprocal heading showing similar height"
may just be very helpfull, especially on a murky day, flying into the sun:eek:

I have to say the FIS & RIS from linton on ouse, waddington and humberside are excelent Thankyou to anyone from those places for a superb job.

[IO540]

If I got a "traffic 12 o'clock, same height, reciprocal heading, 2 miles.... 1 mile" I would respond with "copy traffic, turning right 20 degrees" :O

Why bet when you know the odds are against you.

[englishal]

I wrote:

I only bother to call them if I am enroute somewhere with a plan. Otherwise I take off (on the edge of a MATZ) depart and don't talk to a sausage.....It's a whole new way of flying to me, and I must say it is very enjoyable....

But just to add to this, when I fly in the USA in places like the LA Basin, I ALWAYS ask for Radar service (unless I'm in a funky aircraft with a TIS)....This is because the risk of collision there is what I would call relatively high, it has happened before and everyone I know who flies there has had a "close call" at some time....including me.....

[chevvron]

If you're on an ATC frequency being provided with FIS, apart from looking out yourself, surely it's beneficial to hear other traffic calling in on the frequency, and you then think, 'oh that puts him about 5 miles ahead of me on a crossing track' (or something similar) so it actually assists you even if ATC haven't passed you traffic info.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

This whole business of mid-air risk is massively overdone.
Apart from close to airfields (e.g. the Stapleford/Wellesbourne sunny Sunday free for all :O ) it is as close to zero as one can get. In an aircraft with infinite endurance, etc, you could fly on random trajectories, above the MSA obviously, blindfold, and it is 99% sure you would die of old age before hitting something.
Oh, you've done the sums have you? What's the mean free path then? - I didn't know anyone had actually done the arithmetic!

(Sounds like a question for what used to be the whacky physics paper in the Cambridge entrance exam. Optional paper, full of daft questions like this where you're given no data and have to guess all the parameters; lots of brownie points if you give good answers, no penalties for making a complete cock-up of the entire paper.)

[Monocock]

booke23 -

With all due respect, I think you must either be dangling a hook with this thread or you are a very clever troll. I have never been quite this blunt before on PPRuNe but I do believe you are talking out of your chocolate tea towel holder.

seem to take off, head into the open FIR without even a thought given to calling a radar unit for Flight information or radar information service Yes, indeed. This is me every time I fly from my strip. Is this dangerous?

even more disturbing is that alot of these guys don't even switch their transponders on Do you assume that everyone has one? I don't, and I can name 14 flying friends who also don't. Does this make us more risky airborne obstructions?

Its wise to remember that by making yourself more visable not only safeguards others, but also yourself Thanks for the tip.

And this bit....a mid-air will in all probability, result in all involved getting killed. is a peach. I will bear this in mind in future.

booke23 - AndyR referred to a post I made last night. I decided to delete it as it might have offended. In hindsight, 24 hours later, I still find your comments quite incredible. Please bear in mind that we're not all out there collecting gold stripes in the hunt for the RHS of one of Boeing's finest. Some of us fly for the sheer fun of it and would rather apply wet-look hair gel that install a transponder:hmm:

The day I stop maintaining a good look out is the day I become unsafe and the day I stop flying. Please don't be so dogmatic about the importance of instruments in aircraft. Although useful, I do not believe they help prevent "getting killed".

[eyeinthesky]

I wonder whether the poor unfortunates who have lost their lives in the San Diego mid-air thought that having a transponder or even ATC service was keeping them safe.

No amount of technology will stop people crashing into each other unless they see each other.

[booke23]

Thank you all for your coments.

To put my post into perspective I am refering to flight in the south of the country where oper FIR is pretty limited and usually very crowded.

gasax - I see you're in Aderdeen...I've flown up there a few times and know that talking about collision risk in the FIR must seem very alien to you.....and rightly so.....if only all of the country was as blissfully deserted as most of the scottish FIR.

"The vast majority of 'near hits' occur in controlled traffic environments"

I'm afraid your above comment is completly untrue........as far as GA is concerned the most collisions/near hits occur in the circuit of uncontrolled airfields...(FISO, A/G radio are not controlled environments)

Its true to say collision risk is low......I only posted to highlight the complete disregard some pilots give to reducing collision risk ......I'm talking about guys who hire well equipped club aircraft and don't bother to turn the transponder on. I'm not referring to privately owned aircraft not equipped with transponders...its an expensive bit of equiptment.


Monocock - You attitude to flight safely is astounding........and frankly frightening. I'm not going to waste my time addressing your inane rantings.
However with an attitude like that I'm sure it won't be long before I get to read your autobiography entitled "AAIB bulliten 08/2007"

"Some of us fly for the sheer fun of it"

Don't we all?

[englishal]

I wonder whether the poor unfortunates who have lost their lives in the San Diego mid-air thought that having a transponder or even ATC service was keeping them safe.
Just read about that horrible accident. There is little doubt that had they had a traffic info system - which would have worked there - it is less likely that this accident would have happened. Call me a chicken but now I tend only to rent aeroplanes with these devices when flying in SOCAL (seeing another aeroplane quater of a mile away coming towards you, hidden by the wing tends to put the sh*ts up you).....You just cannot actually see some traffic if it is hidden say by the wing.

[Monocock]

No offence taken :ok:

We are all entitled to an opinion and thanks for the comments

[shortstripper]

Monocock - You attitude to flight safely is astounding........and frankly frightening. I'm not going to waste my time addressing your inane rantings.
However with an attitude like that I'm sure it won't be long before I get to read your autobiography entitled "AAIB bulliten 08/2007"



:rolleyes:



Monocock .... Your answer says it all :ok:

[Tarq57]

It Happens... http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=210323

[Bravo73]

And here... http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=202743 :uhoh: :sad:

[gasax]

I also am of the opinion that brooke23 is either someone who desparately wants gold braid on his sleeve or is simply a troll.

I love the condesencion about there being no traffic in the Scottish FIR. a lot of the time that is true, but when (or if) you fly up here remember most people are flying the same routes, passes etc, that includes a substantial amount of military hardware, all of this occurs in class D to G with no radar. so make sure your lookout is up to scratch.

However I fly quite a bit up and down the east coast to and from the continent, the service from the LARS units is highly variable and will not stop collisions.

If you think people are being irresponsible in not switching on the transponder in their "highly equipped club aircraft" fine, its a view you're welcome to. But it is completely irrelevant in any real terms.

Happy trolling

[slim_slag]

EnglishAl,

Just read about that horrible accident. There is little doubt that had they had a traffic info system - which would have worked there - it is less likely that this accident would have happened.

I suspect they were in a radar blind spot, so TIS would have dropped out. It's quite hilly around there and SOCAL cannot see you when close to the ground (used this once when I bust miramar Class B, suddenly decided to land at Ramona, this was before it had a tower - filed the NASA form of course :) )

[egbt]

I find myself in a quandary on this one, for preference I would prefer to do my own thing but is this reckless of my own safety and, perhaps more importantly, of others? Probably not, but why not take simple precautions to minimise the risk for everyone?

A while ago I had a very close airprox (Official and category A) and I can tell you it was very, very frightening being < 1 second away from disaster (we both estimated the same distance). Me keeping a better look out would probably not have helped as the other a/c was climbing and hidden from view (but I don’t fly wings level for very long now!). Having “I had right of way” or similar on the tomb stone would also not have been much consolation for anyone, except perhaps the insurance company.

Now, the precautions we are talking about would not (did not) help in this case as I was not close to a honey pot (and neither of us were going to/from the nearest one), was in class G airspace, in contact with an A/G station and I did have the transponder on (with height)- but even though I was at 2,000 agl in the south of England it subsequently could not be tracked properly from the tapes so would have been no use to a radar unit.

So :mad: happens, we all have to recognise that, but IMHO we should take reasonable precautions. For me that means putting the transponder on outside of the circuit (although in my current steed it does not provide height info), keeping at least a listening watch on appropriate frequencies and taking a FIS or RIS when there is a lot of Military activity or when flying through choke points such as Cottesmore / East Midlands and Odiham / Southampton.

I guess what I am saying is that none of us are invulnerable, keeping a good look out is essential but not a complete answer, so lets go and have fun taking resonable precautions but without tying our-selves in knots and overwhelming the ATC units.

[OpenCirrus619]

Mono - What you said :ok:

gasax - Ditto :ok:

booke23 - You get what you pays for. If you want someone else to guarantee separation / you don't trust yourself to look out then get an IR and always fly in Class A. If you want the freedom of F and G then stop complaining.
You're the sort who would insist a 40yr old gilder with NO electrics at all (in case this is not clear: no radio, GPS, torch, battery, ....) has a transponder so that it's not your fault when YOU cut them up.

OC619

Edited to add:
Take a look at page 5 of: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/DAP_ACD_VFR_Guide.pdf to see who (supposedly) keeps who away from whom in what airspace.

[IO540]

CAS is no guarantee of separation; anyone can bimble into it. And if that "anyone" is not transponding Mode C, ATC has no idea if he is in it, or below it.

All you get by flying in CAS is a reduced probability of hitting somebody. You can achieve a similar improvement by flying high; flying at 5000ft in Class G is far far better than at 2000ft in Class G. There is almost nobody above 3000ft, relatively speaking.

If somebody wrote

"won't be long before I get to read your autobiography entitled "AAIB bulliten 08/2007"

on my tombstone I would be very disappointed; I would have expected it to be spelt correctly :O

The only thing which has the potential to protect against mid-airs is TCAS. This comes at a cost, £10k-25k, plus everybody else using Mode C, or (in the far future) ADS-B with broadcast of GPS position (which would be much more accurate and probably much cheaper to buy and install).

[chevvron]

IO 540: Flying at 5000ft is all very well during the week, but at weekends, you'll find the sky close to UAS's full of Tutors between 4000ft and FL80 (roughly), and when Tutors fly at weekends, you often find it's without radar from the home airfield eg Boscombe and Benson, so no-ones going to warn them of your presence. Otherwise I agree; fly as high as you can without entering controlled airspace.

[Jo Cover]

I have been an uncontributing observer of Pprune for some time and have only just felt the need to register.

I cannot believe the lack of professionalism shown by some of the posters on this thread. Some of the comments are down right irresponsible.

If the a/c is equipped with transponder and radio then use them. They are there to assist you and others. You might think you are invincible but I can assure you you are NOT!

The transponder isn't difficult to use. You all know how they work. Normally one switch and it's on. Simple as that. Maybe with a few changes to squawk, if you actually use it correctly but it isn't dificult is it?

The radio might be something which frightens you and I know some grown men and women can be intimidated by speaking over an open channel for all to hear, BUT, don't forget that the radio is there to be used to assist you and others.

Remember the section regarding relaying a Pan or Mayday call in the R/T practical? Would you like it on your consience, if you ignored a fellow aviator in trouble, just because you couldn't be bothered to switch on and listen in to others in distress? And maybe, just maybe, make the difference and save someones life by alerting the appropriate emergency services, to the scene of either a crash or other potential life threatening situation? Would you like the idea someone else equipped with radio ignore your calls for help because they couldn't be bothered to switch on and monitor their radio?

Do you think that when the time comes for you to call for help when it all goes wrong, you will be able to enter the correct frequency, select the correct radio box and make the correct transmission when all is going wrong?

Maybe you are of the 'it won't happen to me brigade'. Maybe you never practise PFL's or EFATO's or other vital emergency action drills. Will you remember what to do when the need arises? The simple answer is a big NO! Of course, you don't need to because it's not going to happen to you is it...

May I suggest some of you re-think your posts, get out of your ivory towers and act as professionals. After all, this is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network is it not?

[booke23]

Here Here Jo Covers.

I was beginning to resign myself to the fact that alot of Private Pilots are in fact clowns, calling themselves "Bobo" who go flying on sunny weekends wearing oversize shoes and huge trousers.

I am however encouraged by the few posts of a positive nature......including yours.

I remain astonished at the level of hostility generated by a simple observation, one which I made only to highlight what is unnessary bad airmanship.

And before all you guys with no transponders/electrics start jumping up and down again, I suggest you read my initial post again......I never mentioned aviators in those groups....only people who hire well equipped aircraft who fail to use the transponder.....

...so kindly remove the chips from your anti establishment shoulders, leave your Ego at the door and be a bit more grown up about debating aviation safely matters.

[englishal]

Slim, you are probably right. I had "pop up" traffic appear below directly below me when IFR in that region which caused the controller to issue a traffic alert, and as you say TIS wouldn't have seen it either.

The problem with a FIS it is not a reliable source of traffic information and may lead to a false sense of security, so is worthless other than to give altimeter settings IMO. A RIS is valuable but if you're just going for a jolly, say to practice a bit of upper airwork, don't really know where you're going, other than South, and don't know what time you'll be back then it is unlikely a RIS would be given on a gin clear day, or it would be terminated pretty quickly if they are busy.

I have mode C and transpond every time. I have a radio and maintain a listening watch to the relavent ATC unit, but don't always bother to call them unless enroute somewhere....otherwise my call would be along the lines of "GABCD is out of blah, local flight, dunno what altitude, probably going south for a bit, may be about an hour, request RIS"....

[shortstripper]

booke23,

With all due respect, I have re-read your original post and whilst you don't specifically refer to non transponder/radio aircraft, you certainly wrote it in a way that came across as all encompassing. To add to this, you flamed Monocock when he pointed this out and took the mickey out of your stating of a few obvious facts ... as if we don't all know that a middair will most likely result in death :hmm: How do you turn such a post as his into the assumption that he is reckless and irresponsible? OK, if you are transponder equipped, and have a radio, then sure, turn them on, keep a listening watch and perhaps let people know you're about. Nothing in Mono's (or anyone else's) post suggested otherwise? Ithink you (and Jo Cover) seem to have missed the point that most are making; that is, that these things will not gaurantee your safety!

The time I personally worry the most about a middair is the 2000' overhead join. Here I may well be known to ATC and others, but have often been there, knowing there are three of four others joining, and I can't see one!

SS

[Monocock]

shortstripper -

I wouldn't be surprised if our friend and Jo Cover are the same people. Thanks for seeing my post as it was intended. Its content was not a "flaming" as you pointed out, just a different end of the scale to booke23's view.
Maybe you never practise PFL's or EFATO's or other vital emergency action drills. Will you remember what to do when the need arises? The simple answer is a big NO! Of course, you don't need to because it's not going to happen to you is it...

Would love to run you through my EFATO Jo. I'm just damn lucky I was flying the aircraft when it happened and not buggering about with a transponder as I wouldn't be here now if I had been:O

[Fuji Abound]

I think the poster is simply naive.

There is a misconception that the radio and transponder in some way prevents collisions in open FIR. That misconception can only arise from failing to understand how they work.

As others have said a transponder is of no use at all in collision avoidance (unless you have TCAS fitted, which is hardly anyone), or are receiving a RIS or RAS (which is most unlikely in open FIR).

Radio calls informing everyone of your position and height may be of some small help, in that other alert pilots may realise there is a potential conflict or adjust their height to ensure one does not arise. The problem is that on busy days when collisions are more likely it is often difficult or impossible to make frequent position reports. Moreover, pilots are likely to be talking to different stations - are they with London or working a local ATZ. They are also unlikely to know the local area well enough to know when a pilot calls overhead XXX that they are in the same area.

As I posted on another thread there are a number of ways in IMC you can reduce the risk of collision in open FIR. These ways apply equally in VMC with some additions.

1. Avoid overflying choke points - VORs, NDBs and VRPs

2. Avoid tracking close to the edge of CZ

3. Fly above 3,000 feet if possible, most GA pilots don’t like getting to high

4. Avoid gliding sites and any airfields

5. Avoid following line features - I suspect most GA pilots have forgotten the rules about line features and simply follow them regardless of which side they should be on

6. Fly at 2,000 feet (if you cant get high). Slightly tongue in cheek but everyone is told don’t fly at 2,000 feet and seem to have got to grips with that one, so now everyone is at some other height and 2,000 feet is presumably pretty conflict free

7. Never fly in a straight line, make small and frequent course changes

[benhurr]

Just to add to Fuji's list.

8. Fly at the correct quadrantal level/altitude whenever possible. Obviously noone would fly under controlled airspace or a nav route on QFE in the UK so I don't need to add quadrantal height to please the pedants.

I appreciate that at times then this can be difficult when controlled airspace is low.

I think point 7 is also particularly applicable in these GPS days. The accuracy of GPS is a wonderful thing but it also introduces another problem of raising the possibility of 2 aircraft on reciprocal headings between two points routing through exactly the same piece of sky.

I see nothing wrong with people flying in the open FIR with no radios and no transponders in most areas. However I would suggest, for purposes of self preservation, then this might not be wise through Coventry or Doncaster's final approaches.

Good airmanship involves a large degree of common sense - my main rule in whatever I am flying is that I don't want to die in any circumstances, even if I am in the right.

I sincerely hope that everyone here shares that view.

Edited to please

[Tarq57]

Fuji Abound

all good points, especially#7. This is one thing you can easily do to a) make yourself more visible and (b) increase by quite a lot the chances of seeing another aircraft that was on a collision course.

Realistically, transponder on in D or G airspace will improve things in an area of radar cover, where a controller is providing a radar service to an IFR flight, you will likely be called as traffic information if a threat (ie likely to pass within 3nm). The more likely hazard is from VFR aircraft that happen to be on a "line of constant bearing" (read=collision course) and don't move across the windscreen. Very hard to spot. Especially gliders. This is why turns are useful.

Benhur, absolutely. Anything that increases the time you have to spot closing traffic has to improve the odds.

2 Cessnas collided over Milford Sound a few years ago on a tourist scenic. They were almost parallel but slightly converging. (This is a high density area) The report found that although one of the passengers could see the other aircraft approaching, and even photographed it, it was unlikely the PIC would have seen it without some unusual contortion. The other pilot's view was likely to be obscured by the wing.
So, yeah, big sky, but hey! In my opinion this is one area of flight safety where the unexpected will kill you. (mind you, I'm an ATCO, hence -in part-that opinion). Engine failure? Rare, and trained for. Fire? Very rare. Bad weather? Too common, but you have the answer in your own hands. Structural failure? Horrid but extremely rare. Stall? Too common, but still, trained for. Collision? Ride it down.
Keep things turning. (heads and aircraft.)

[bookworm]

Oh, you've done the sums have you? What's the mean free path then? - I didn't know anyone had actually done the arithmetic!

Well let's have a go. Mean free path is 1/nA where n is the concentration and A is the collision cross-section.

I'd assess A as between 100 and 500 m^2 for a typical B737 sort of thing. If they were all smaller aircraft, it might be more like 50 m^2, but let's use the larger number because the big ones are out there too.

For n, let's say 2000 flights simultaneously airborne across a 600 x 400 km rectangle of the UK. The distribution of levels is non-uniform, probably bimodal, but let's say 4000 m deep. That's about 10^15 m^3 so n is about 2 x 10^-12 m^-3.

So the mean free path is about 1 x 10^9 m, or about 500,000 nautical miles. So for a typical light aircraft, in a random environment you'll find yourself on a true collision course about one in a 5000 hour flying career.

The estimates above are fairly conservative, so I wouldn't be surprised if it were once every 100,000 flying hours for the average space in which light aircraft move.

Of course traffic density isn't constant, and so the mean free path will be much more than that in a high level cruise over Scotland, and much less than that around busy airports.

[Tarq57]

P.S. A tip: When I was checking out in Cessnas, one of my instructors recommended before turning, to lift the wing a few degrees first, and have a wee look round. This 'coz in the 172 (and similar) it's hard to see your flight path, especially in a left turn (or right if flying from that seat).

[Jo Cover]

Ooh this looks like handbags at dawn!!

Glad to see that some posters are explaining their posts in a more positive way. Some unfortunately, want to stay with the 'wont happen to me brigade'. Nevermind, I'll enjoy listening to their 'Near Miss' and 'how I heroically avoided disaster' stories at the airfields I visit or reading their obituaries in the press.

Of course, a Transponder and Radio won't make you invincible by any means. That wasn't my suggestion but they will increase your chances of survival if used correctly. They are there to assist in flight safety, why oh why is that so difficult for some to see??

Ask for a FIS, RIS or RAS and if the controller can give you the service, they will. If you dont ask you won't get it but if you have asked, they might just assist in making the skies a safer place to be.


Fly the correct quadrantal level? We are assuming here that everyone flies a FL not on QFE or regional QNH?


Mono, correct me if I am wrong but shouldnt the transponder be set as part of your pre take off checks?? Presuming that you bother with those of course...

Anyhow, glad to see that you were able to handle the EFATO. Well done!!:ok: :ok:

[A and C]

I find monococks attitude quite refreshing lookout is the only thing that will save you in the final instance.

I do understand the low timers who have been trained to use all the radar services and the transponder but is this leading them into a trap?. over reliance on technology is becoming a big issue in the airline business so much so that I know of an airline that is giving the new guys more time in the sim to fly visual approaches.

I don't have to dream of the days when I will aspire to all that gold braid, I already go to work dressed like an Argintinian admiral and my time flying airliners I have found a lot of places that the only sure way to avoid hitting another aircraft is to look out of the window. after all there is no radar below about 10,000ft in most of the islands in the southern Med and a lot of traffic with no transponder to show up on the TCAS..

ADS-B would be the best bit of kit fot GA but some aircraft will never be able to support it so the only system that will work under all visual conditions in all airspace is a good lookout and less time spent looking at the GPS and other such equipment.

[Fuji Abound]

"Nevermind, I'll enjoy listening to their 'Near Miss' and 'how I heroically avoided disaster' stories at the airfields I visit or reading their obituaries in the press."

Cynical - probably, helpful - doubtful, funny - best not to joke.

I think you have totally misunderstood the posts.

Everyone, including Mono, accepts that in some circumstances the use of the radio and transponder may help avoid a collision in open FIR. However when you have been flying a bit you realise that the contribution these tools make is minimal.

As I hope I pointed out there are many other ways that can be employed that are more likely to reduce the chances of a collision. I am sure Mono is very adept at these techniques and is probably a far safer pilot than those who turn on the transponder and make various utterances on the radio thinking this is all they need do for collision panacea - and there is a lot of those!

Some wish to preserve their right to operate non radio, non transponder equipped aircraft. Unfortunately that right is unlikely to last much longer, but as is so often the case these rights may well be lost on grounds of misconceived improvements in safety.

If all aircraft were equipped with mode S and cheap mode S reliant avoidance kit was available (and it certainly could be) then this technology would come into its own when the whole fleet was so equipped. That may well be a good idea at a realistic cost. Until then you will get no real traffic avoidance service in open FIR - just try flying in France and you will be lucky to get a FIS most of the time.

Until then take on board some of the comments on this thread and by all means switch on your transponder and use the radio (I personally do so every time, and my transponder is mode S) but please don’t assume that will help at all in avoiding a collision. Follow some or all of the other techniques for reducing the chances of a collision and Mono and I and quite a few other posters on this thread will feel a lot safer. Respect the right of some to fly non radio non transponder because the law permits it.