Concern - FI shortage

[Cambridge Aero Club]

We'd like to hear some views on this. As predicted by many of us, there seems to be a real shortage of FIs in the UK. Market forces and training requirements are all conspiring to make things worse. Before long the GA training arena could really suffer, and worst of all many schools may have to give up.

Comments....?

[Whopity]

This opinion appears to contradict the many posts where FIs are looking for opportunities to instruct and simply can't find them! I have heard many debate the pros and cons of doing a FI course, if the perception is that there is little chance of work at the end of it!

It is probably fair to say that there is a shortage of experienced FIs, the younger ones inevitably move on to the airlines whilst the older ones fade away. There are still a number of FI(R)s looking for work.

There are many PPL holders who would like to instruct but, are put off by the CPL or even ATPL exams and associated courses. Perhaps the greatest problem is the lack of a CPL theoretical course, which is not financially viable for training providers. ICAO Annex 1 requires that FIs should demonstrate CPL level knowledge; for many years this was achieved in the UK by passing a FI pre-entry test. JAR-FCL reiterates this ICAO requirement. With a little imagination this requirement could be met by without the need to complete either the JAA CPL written exams or to attend a mandatory course of training!

[Send Clowns]

I just had to cover because a local school had been so desperate they took on an instructor before he had finished his course. Weather delayed him so they had booked a few lessons in for him, I was at a loose end waiting to start training for my next job, and was asked to help out. They want me to get back in touch if I can work at all over the summer, as they anticipate a need for instructors.

While I have some experience as an instructor, they clearly were also looking at someone so inexperienced he wasn't yet qualified! I am not sure who you are talking to Whopity. Are they actively looking for work? Do they have personality for the job?

Agree that it should be possible to instruct with a PPL without recourse to CPL exams, and think anyone instructing should be paid, regardless of licence. The system was not broken, why did JAA have to fix it?

[FlyingForFun]

I suspect (and this is not based on any real information) that those instructors who say they can't find work are being too picky in where they want to work - maybe they don't want to move house, and are only looking for work at one or two airfields near their home.

If you are happy to re-locate to where the work is, I think there is plenty of work out there for new FIs, and definitely for experienced FIs.

FFF
-------------

[Dr Eckener]

Sounds like good news to me. With the upsurge in the job market good FI's are finally being seen as a resource to look after and develop. Lets hope it leads to an improvement in t&c's and salary rises. This will lead to more people wanting to become FI's. Market forces at work. Employers have had it very good for a long time now!

[TheRed(lfc)Baron]

Guy's

I've just started an FI course and have two schools who have already expressed an interest.

I think the work is there - but it always helps if you have had dealings with the schools in the past as a student.

Am enjoying the FI course so far!

Red:O

[Say again s l o w l y]

There is such a large amount of movement in the whole aviation industry at the moment, it's hardly surprising that FI's are thin on the ground.

People straight out of training are easy to find, but anyone with any experience and especially those with IR and aero's experience are like gold dust.

Can we solve this problem by allowing PPL's to instruct? To a certain extent, but we must be careful not to get to old problem of having people instruct for free. If the CAA were to allow all holder's of FI ratings to be paid, then go for it.

Otherwise, the industry will just have wake up and smell the coffee and people will just have to accept that an FI will cost alot more. Hopefully the days of £10/flying hour will soon be long gone. (They certainly are in my club, but I'm not so sure about others.)

[EGBKFLYER]

FFF is right where I'm concerned. I'm in a well-paid job currently and although I'm prepared to take a large drop in salary to fly full-time, I want something in return. That something would be an employer that can develop my piloting and instructing skills, won't go bust overnight, offers a decent working environment and ideally pays enough to keep the wolf from the door - all year round. Picky? Probably - but I'm serious about a flying career.

Only judging by posts on this site (which may or may not be representative of the general situation!), it seems to me that there are some slightly older 'career changers' looking for a sensible move into aviation and a load of younger folks whose eyes light up only when a jet turbine is mentioned. The former are more likely to consider instructing as an option but they are the smaller group. That, combined with the general movement industry-wide and you get your shortage at GA club level.

[Benix]

those instructors who say they can't find work are being too picky in where they want to work - maybe they don't want to move house, and are only looking for work at one or two airfields near their home.
FFF maybe true for a few. Personally it took me about 2 months to find a job when I finished my course. Yes it was in my local(ish) area and yes I did see a few positions further afield. However there aren't too many schools (that ive come across anyway) about that pay a decent enough wage that would be enough for me to be able to move across the country, pay rent and living, and meet the loan repayments that I took out for my training. On my current £10ph I can't afford to live as is and i've moved back in with my folks for the moment :sad: Not that my school could afford to pay me much mroe anyway, Ive seen how much profit we make an hour and its rather shocking....

[Send Clowns]

Not sure where you are, Benix, but the going rate in the South East is from £15-20 per hour. If anything that is likely to rise in the near future. I see elsewhere that Cambridge is offering a reasonable salary and conditions!

[unfazed]

Cambridge Aero Club

I noticed that you have run a number of adverts for FI's over the past year

I also know a couple of experienced instructors who didn't even get an interview

Makes me wonder why you can't hold onto people ? :hmm: and why you don't interview those who would like to work for you ?

[RVR800]

When the average wage for an FI exceeds the national average yearly wage then we can talk about shortage.

Many FIs earn no more than the average office cleaner - so according to the law of supply and demand it hardly classifies as a shortage occupation..

Its just that people dont like working for peanuts esp whem they have massive debt.................

[tom775257]

I was offered a job instructing before starting my FI course.

Flight instruction seems to be great fun so far, and extremely rewarding. That said the wage is not enough to make it a long term prospect. I will have to use savings to subsidise my salary (working 60 hours a week, 6 days a week) and I know other FI's in a worse position at other schools. Unless this changes I can't see why anyone would want to become an instructor as a career choice. Yes flying is great fun, but you do need to live.

From other guys I've spoken to it seems two years is about all you can handle of basic PPL instruction full time.

[RVR800]

>When the average wage for an FI exceeds the national average yearly wage then we can talk >about shortage.Many FIs earn no more than the average office cleaner - so according to the law >of supply and demand it hardly classifies as a shortage occupation..
>Its just that people dont like working for peanuts esp when they have massive debt.................

Some factors by observation that influnce FI numbers

1. Older FIs retiring
2. Silly exam system much like the IR that puts people off
3. Low salary / Pension
4. Higher UK debt and the need to service loans
5. Widening technological gulf and lack of credit for experience (Airline vs GA)
6. Some FIs leaving to find other work (some to airlines)
7. Very poor perceived career prospects
8. Elderly GA fleets worldwide - unpleasant working environment
9. Implementation of MPL Sub part K Lasors and a further separation in value of GA vs. airline experience
10. People talking on the internet and being unimpressed by what was once 'good enough'

[Sean Dillon]

I know of a very experienced instructor who is very well respected who had a number of interviews with Cambridge Aero Club and was turned down - he was one of many apparently.....can't help but think the problem is with Cambridge Aero Club...

And well said FlyingForFun, your not fussy on where you work are you....BLACKPOOL!!!!! Shivers down me spine at the mention of the place!

[Mr Man]

Mmmm……weird one this! If this post seems a little bitter,I can assure you it’s not intended,as I’m very happy with the the school that I’m instructing at,happy with my instructional skills,and happy with the number of hours flown,well in excess of my colleagues who went to other schools.

I attended an interview with CAC the DAY after passing my FI test.I was happy with the situation,and had an interview and a flight with the manager.I was invited back for a test flight with Marshals chief test pilot,a very nice guy.The flight was very wooden from my point of view,teach S & L to a guy with a zillion hours,me with zero instructing hours,but don’t worry,it’s NOT A TEST.

A few days later was told “Sorry,we’re looking for someone with more instructional experience” ??????

Now I understand that I am not automatically entitled to a job,and I know CAC must be doing something right,as I think it’s the oldest flying club in the UK.I also know that they maybe simply didn’t like me,which is fine,( great quote “What others think of me, is none of my business”),but why ask me down again, and then decide you need an experienced instructor?

Two trips to Cambridge,one overnight stay,two hours looking at accommodation?

FI shortage? Probably,but not at many of the schools that I deal with.

I have to say that I found the school friendly, professional,and efficient,and I was told that they pay well,but I would suggest that they look at wether they like the person based on gut instinct,because we all know that an instructors flying skills develop out of all proportion within a couple of weeks.

I am very proud of a comment made to me by one of my students,a head teacher with 35 years experience “You’re not just an instructor,you’re a true teacher,and I should know”,and I am sure that there are many,many more just like me, prepared to travel,relocate and give their best,usually on a pittance of a wage (as I said,I don’t think pay is a negative in the case of CAC)

After my experiences,I did a search and found a few comments regarding CAC’s attitude to recruitment similar to my own experiences.

In a nutshell I would say that I was ready and willing to do a good job,I was happy with the club,and I am a good instructor.If they didn’t like me,fine,but maybe their FI shortage.................
isn’t all it seems.!!!!

[Send Clowns]

RVR800

"... the law of supply and demand ..."

You are looking only at the supply side. From the club's point of view they have to balance supply of instructional talent (as well as aircraft of course and day-to-day services) and demand from students. Flying is expensive, on the edge of many students' ability to pay. If pay goes up much then they will lose a disproportionate amount of custom. While there are some people willing to do work they enjoy for little reward the pay will remain low. I worked part-time for enjoyment and experience of instructing and hours, not for the small pay I took, and it has been rewarding to me to have those hours, as it go me into another job.

Having said that there is certainly upward pressure on pay.

[unfazed]

SendClowns

Sorry fail to see the actual point that you are making in your last post ??
If CAC are interviewing then it is reasonable to assume that they have identified a need for an instructor and are capable of "resourcing" that need.

Based on the posts so far it would appear that all is not as it might appear at CAC. One reason for multiple adverts might be unreasonable or unrealistic expectations (normally running alongside large personality / ego). Just a guess to stimulate some debate.:confused:

[moodywolf]

The real facts about cambridge aero club.

No, the subject is any potential FI shortage. - Rob

Please, no spelling, grammar, whingers......... and moderators, if someones starts a thread, why lock them out before they can reply???

[PPRuNe Towers]

Advertising

[moodywolf]

No, the subject is any potential FI shortage. - Rob

As my post standing up for CAC has been removed,then it's only fair to remove Mr Mans and sean dillons reference to CAC, or is there an ulterior motive to leave them on?

Andy.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Well that's an interesting thought Andy.

How about we turn that question to the originator of this thread. Click on the name (there could be a clue there) and view all posts.

Now how about you use your skill and judgement to review every post made in the last 18 months.

Readers are entirely able to judge for themselves where ulterior motives lie.

rob

[moodywolf]

Hi rob

I see what you mean, there are some naughty adds from cac but they tend to be in answer to a post and maybe they are genuinely just offering to help someone out.

There has been some good advice offered, eg...when would you send someone solo, I imagine that gets forgotten.

The post slamming cac for not giving them a job makes me laugh, just because an individual has passed an FI course it doesn't make them suitable to teach, if a potential employer has exacting standards then that can only be good for the industry.

Andy.

[Mr Man]

Couldn't agree more.I don't automatically deserve a job because I have a FI ticket.If I didn't fit the exacting standards,then fine,in fact I have nothing but praise for CAC,as I made clear.My point was that MAYBE they should look at wether they're too fussy,and to say they wanted someone experienced when they knew my situation from the start was strange.Had they said I didn't fit the bill,then fine.
If my post should be removed for content,then 99% of pprune would be removed.
CAC are a successful school,as is the one that I'm currently at.Can't see the controversy Andy.
Regards!

[Jaydee27]

Little perplexed by the evolution of this thead...

Complaining that you were not offered a job in Cambridge after a checkflight, seems to say more about your flying abilities than the CAC and is perhaps more than I'd want to share!

I understand CAC sets, aspires to and apparently maintains very high standards. This also appears to be perceived as a negative thing. Not sure why that is either. I wonder if there's an element of sour grapes from those that haven't been able to make that grade?

As for egos...please...look at what's been posted.

Irrespective of all this, the inital question remains valid. How is the industry going to mainintain a supply of good instructors, in the face of self sponsored type ratings, ready supplies of borrowed money, no real requirement to hour build prior to getting an airline break and the impending MPL.

Hoping the mods allow this to stand...

[unfazed]

Jaydee and co

Little perplexed by the evolution of this thead...

So am I ???
If CAC are not even bothering to interview qualified and experienced instructors then it is not surprising that they have a problem with recruiting

Rule number one of recruitment = Interview people for the job !

If you don't interview then you cannot appoint anybody.....seems like a "no brainer":bored:

[Sean Dillon]

CAC admitted to my friend he uses PPRuNe for his advertising during his interview!!!!

[Send Clowns]

Unfazed

They have identified the need for an instructor at that salary. It might be that they would not have sufficient business to need one if they had to pay more and therefore the student would have to pay more. This is the same point I made before, but I'm not sure how I could make it any clearer :confused:

I am not just talking about CAC, of course. Friends working full-time at Bournemouth Flying Club are earning a living wage, from a combined salary and hourly pay in some cases (I only work there occasionally, so get paid by the hour), which is a distinct improvement on past times. I know clubs that pay less well are struggling to fill instructor vacancies, suggesting a lack of instructors.

[Mr Man]

Jaydee27

Unbelievable........I couldn't have made it any clearer that my instructing abilities were not at that stage up to the standards required,this does not embarass me and I certainly have no problems "sharing" it.Far from being "sour grapes",I am geniunely very happy with how my situation has turned out.I will happily make my views clear for you:

I personally don't think there's a serious shortage of instructors at present,however,there may be a shortage of instructors of a certain "standard".

Send Clowns

I understand your point,but don't think the wage is an issue with CAC,as I was told it was substancially higher than most schools.

[Send Clowns]

Yes, it is, but I was not talking about CAC's problem specifically. Their salary still doesn't fit the criteria RVR800 set, to be on average above national average wage. The point I was making is that the failure of wages to rise above that level even when there are few instructors to fill placves is not necessarily a supply-side issue, but might be a demand issue due to cost of training.

[pilotbear]

Speaking of CAC, I remember a while back they were looking for instructors, I called and the guy said drop in. So, I was flying past soon after and dropped in. Unfortunately it was the guys day off but he was in so I asked to speak to him for a couple of mins as we were both there...he refused, and then complained on the forum about the dedication of instructors going for interview.
Sorry but there is an attitude issue here.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Right, leaving aside the issues of CAC (and yes I do have experience of the place.) is there a shortage or not?

Send Clowns makes a good point in that until there is a chronic shortage and the "value" of an FI goes up to a sensible level, then we can't say that it is too bad.

As the supply of FI's dries up (which it is doing to a certain extent) then clubs will have to start paying more, though to be honest we will always be fighting a losing battle against the airlines. Most CPL holders really don't want to instruct, they are forced to do it in a quest to increase their experience and make themselves more palatable to an airline.

Until we get career FI's, then this won't change. At my club, we are all part-timers and get our living from either an airline or some other career. This really just makes the best of a ridiculous situation. Hopefully we can eventually reach a time where an FI is a valued member of the aviation community rather than the "poor relation" (in more ways than one!)

When we get that, then hopefully we won't get this boom and bust situation which is utterly cr*p for the long term health of flight training in this country.

[unfazed]

Say again slowly

As long as we have people on this forum (a forum for professional instructors) stating that they would love to see clubs staffed by part time PPL instructors who will allow these struggling businesses to break even then I don't see how we can improve things.

Either you support full time professional instructing or you don't (e.g. would love to make it a part time hobby), if you do support the ideal of a full time career instructing professional then we need to start treating instructors accordingly (and instructors need to act as such).:)

[Say again s l o w l y]

All FI's in my club are at minimum CPL holder's. No PPL's.
Personally however, I see no problem with a PPL FI as long as they can be paid properly.

The FI rating should be a darn sight harder to get than it is currently and then we'll get people who actually want to be instructors, rather than those who are forced to and couldn't really give a monkey's.
We make the best of a bad situation by ensuring that our FI's are teaching for the right reasons, this means that they are more likely to give our customers value for money since they aren't under any pressure to do as much flying as possible and it means we have a very stable instructing team. In 18 months of operation we still have the same team (plus some new recruits) whereas the other local schools have seen at least 100% turnover in instructing staff in under a year!

I'm trying to achieve stability for my customers in this environment, anything else is secondary, but eventually we will have full time FI's at the club and hopefully we will be able to pay them a proper salary, but I won't bankrupt the club to do it. If you have a suggestion on how I'm "damaging" our industry by providing excellent instruction at a sensible cost (we are in no way cheap) and by giving our FI's a good hourly rate and ensuring that ALL monies from the students go direct to the Instructing staff rather than into someone's pocket, then let me know.
As I'm trying my best to drag this business kicking and screaming into the 20th century (let alone the 21st) for the good of everyone, not just the FI's and not just the students and PPL's and if you saw how much I get "paid" for the work I put in, then I'm certainly not doing it for the good of my bank account!

If you think the problems this industry faces are as simple as supporting full time instruction, then you've got some shocks coming.

[Gugnunc]

The fact that PPL instructing is badly paid and also difficult for the FTO's to make a reasonable profit out of is a given.

What astounds me (coming from a business background) is that more effort isn't made to create and sell peripheral packages that can command higher instructing rates.

CPL, ME & IR all command good rates. Surely an FTO with a little gumption could create post PPL packages that can be sold to enhance a PPL's knowledge, enjoyment, enthusiasm and safety.

Some ideas - bundled packages for Aeros, Night, IMC, Grass strip landing, mountain flying, flight over water, advanced GPS use, advanced PPL techniques, controlled Airspace and major airports, Complex SE, Winter flying etc etc.

Add on training packs will keep PPL's motivated to keep flying, improving the hire revenue.

Some FTO's have adverts for additional packs, but then make no active effort to sell them to their PPL's. Then they grumble that they can't make a living out of PPL training.

It is business after all. Sales & profit should be of interest to the FI's too.
I wouldn't want to see FI's paid commission for selling advanced packages - but someone should. Even employing a pleasant receptionist is a start.....!:)

[Say again s l o w l y]

One of the major issues, is that PPL training is usually done by an RF (registered facility) whereas to be able to train for the CPL or IR, you need to be an FTO (Flight Training Organisation) this involves a lot of money and hassle for not an awful lot of reward. So whilst you can get paid more per-hour, your overheads go through the roof.

Aero's, mountain flying, grass strip etc.. is usually offered anywhere decent, but many clubs don't have access to either FI's capable of teaching these things or aircraft that are suitable. (My club can, but we are unusual in that respect in our area.)

[EGBKFLYER]

I think a lot of the forward-looking clubs do offer the courses mentioned where they have FIs with the skills needed. Even then though, uptake is not great in my experience. My guess is that unless people can see a need for having those 'badges' (e.g. they want to fly in cloud or explore farm strips etc), they won't do the course. Just learning is not enough of a motivation for a lot of folks.

Of course there are also a lot of PPLs who just want to fly without the 'pressure' of an instructor next to them. Courses aren't going to work there...

[Gugnunc]

I have seen other courses offered and advertised, but my point was more about how "products" are marketed and sold by clubs & FTO's.

I can understand that organisations are too small to employ someone dedicated to selling, business generation etc but other small businesses seem to understand the concepts better than flying schools.

I've flown with a few clubs/FTO's now and even though they are largish names in the industry, I have never received a newsletter or mailshot from any of them. No one has ever come up to me and said - "you've been doing a fair few hours in our Warrior - do you want to try out the Arrow for £££?"
Has anyone ever had a phonecall saying "we've just had a booking for the 172 cancelled, do you want it for a few hours for a special price...."? They don't earn money sitting on the ground.

I'm not advocating that the moment a PPL turns up at the club he is besieged by special offers, incentives and pushy sales tactics, but some attention to good business practice and customer service would be appreciated.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Some of us do that, but you are correct in that the vast majority seem to have no concept of how to market a product.

Whilst a/c are sitting on the ground they don't make money, a lot of the time however, they won't lose money either, so many wouldn't even think about "special offers" as they think it would lose them money, forgetting that in the long term it would probably help boost sales.

Most flying schools make money despite themselves, not because of any particular marketing genius!

[18greens]

Some interesting points about school economics.

I have a couple of questions:

1) Do any schools phone up trial lessons one week later to see if they want to book a follow up lesson. Is any proactive marketing done or do all schools just rely on adverts? The only school I know of that did do any marketing kept sending me details on PPL offers long after I had a PPL (every 6 months for 3 years until I called them and told them. At which point they just stopped , never mind night, imc, cpl ,ir etc...).

2) Is the flying market that price sensitive? If schools charged £10 (or even £20) more for instruction per hour would it make any difference, other than getting instructors to earn a half reasonable salary.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Something I've noticed about the amount FI's are paid, if you are open about how much an FI costing, then I have never had any complaints. But if you mix the two costings up ie. have one price for SFH and another price with an FI, then people seem to be bothered.

Why? No idea, but no-one seems to think that an FI isn't worth £25 an hour.

I charge £30/hr for IMC work and Aero's and £22 for "normal" PPL stuff (£25 for night) and we're busier now than we have ever been. I like to think that our customers know that they are getting value for money and when you consider the training and experience we all have, even £30/hr is pretty darn cheap and most punters are smart enough to realise this.

When it comes to pro-active marketing, it is something I'm very keen on, but in all the other schools I've worked at, there has basically been no effort made apart from putting a line in Yellow Pages.

[Gugnunc]

Interesting point about being open with the FI's rates. Once you've had the car serviced, got the solictor to write a letter, the accountant to do your tax return and paid the plumber - you'd be a bit concerned to see the well qualified professional who has your life in his hands only on £8 per hour!

ps a correction to my earlier post. The club does send out newsletters - but any incentive to go for additional ratings is by example only - ie someone writing up his aerobatic course as a piece for the newsletter.

[shortstripper]

Once you've had the car serviced, got the solictor to write a letter, the accountant to do your tax return and paid the plumber - you'd be a bit concerned to see the well qualified professional who has your life in his hands only on £8 per hour!


Welcome to the world of crap pay!

Whilst not trying to dumb down the value of instructors or imply that they are not worth paying more, I would just point out that it happens with other occupations too.

I have a Bsc in Agriculture, have 25 years experience and now earn the head popping sum of around £25k per year! Yep I get a nice house with the job and a free airstrip, but then I manage the place! If I break it down into hours, I actually earn less than £5/hr! I'm not alone, look at jobs such as lab technicians ... they need a degree to qualify and I've never seen their jobs advertised for more than about £15k! Like I say, not trying to make out that instructors aren't undervalued ... but I get a bit fed up with the kind of talk that sets them apart as unique in this respect.

SS

[Say again s l o w l y]

No were not unique, or are we trying to be. I'm sure everyone in a low pay job would like more, it's just that now it seems that may actually happen.

One aside though, I manage a busy school/club and would love to take home £25K/year from it and I certainly don't get free accomodation or a free airstrip.
Having a degree is certainly no guarantee of good pay, especially with so many "mickey mouse" courses being taken today. (Apologies to Mickey!)

[shortstripper]

I'm sure you are not classing an agricultural degree as Micky Mouse ... but if you are, that would take some justifying. The £25K and house came after many years of earning a lot less and is pretty much the ceiling when it comes to farm earnings. The airstrip is actually just a grazing field that doubles up, but it is a great perk I must admit. Many farm owners, esp some of the hill farmers make no money at all ... except whatever the Mrs brings home from working the till at Tesco's. The point I was making was that there are many well qualified professionals earning less than £8/hr and nobody seems that concerned. Ok, they don't directly have little Jonny's life in their hands, but many have life bearing influences.

I hope instructors do start to earn decent money ... if they do I'd soon jump ship and become one as I'm getting fed up with 2am starts. Oh and before anyone starts pointing out the downside of instructing I'm well aware of them and believe me ... over some of the jobs I'm thinking about, you could never win that aurgument :}

As for the instructor shortage ... It's about time we dropped the need to do the CPL papers and came up with a specific test including a teaching element. Then allow PPL's with a reasonable amount of experience to teach to PPL level ... and yes, pay them the going rate so that they don't simply undercut those who are trying to scrape a living. Most (though I realise not all) instructors, do move on to higher payed jobs in the airlines, so to a certain extent the poor pay will eventually be justified. However, I'm not trying to say that is how it should be.

SS

[Say again s l o w l y]

No I certainly don't consider agriculture mickey mouse, I was thinking more along the lines of Media studies.

Hill farming is a tough business, one of my Uncle's is a hill farmer in North Wales and to say it's a hard living is one of the biggest understatements of all time.

[speechless1]

As far as paying instructors more goes: There is a financial point at which the students will not go beyond. I would love to be paid more per hour, but as soon as it looks likely that a pay rise could be accomodated, up go the landing fees or fuel price, so bang goes the pay rise. We provide hundreds of trial lessons each year and many would love to continue with learning if only flying wasnt so expensive in this country.
With regards to marketing: If anyone knows what the magic formula is, then share it with the rest of us. I agree that most clubs/schools are not proactive enough and are willing to waste money on printed ads that do nothing more than get a few trial lessons. (which make very little money). Most people that learn to fly have made the decision years before they start. How do we encourage others to start and to part with huge sums of money? Only when we can achieve that can we think about paying instructors more.

[watty]

If anybody wants one, one available end of March.

Let me know where and when.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

As a punter at CAC I have the following observations:

(1) One reads from time to time, here and elsewhere, all sorts of horror stories about safety issues, professionalism issues, good business practice issues, with instructors, examiners and clubs.

(2) I have had no such negative experiences at CAC.

(3) OK, from time to time there's an instructor that doesn't like my flying very much, but that's what check rides are for, and this usually happens on occasions when I don't like my flying very much either. The instructors that the club hires deal with such occurences in what seems to me, the paying punter who's being told off for being useless (not something that happens regularly in many other businesses!!!), to be a perfectly reasonable manner.

(4) It's entirely possible that they err too much on the side of caution and refrain from hiring people who could actually do the job. But hiring people (which I've done plenty of in other fields) is hardly an exact science, and an employer might feel that it's preferable to miss good people rather than risk hiring bad ones. When I've accidentally hired the wrong programmer I can sit them in the corner and give them something harmless to do remote from customers until I've persuaded them to leave again, and hope my boss hasn't noticed. You can't do that with flying instructors - every instructor gets to perform in full view of the paying punter.

[Say again s l o w l y]

You are correct in that it isn't easy to tell what someone is like after a short meeting, but it does require some experience of getting it right and sometimes getting it wrong. I have done both and learnt each time to refine what I'm looking for in a prospective FI.

What I didn't particularily like was being put in a totally artificial situation by someone with less than 1/4 of my experience at the time. Each place does things differently and everyone takes time to adapt to it, but it would help if people were told what is expected. Certainly something I tell all of my FI's. i.e How I expect certain lessons to be taught so that we can keep some 'semblence of standardisation.

I have found very fortunately that most people are very competent and that given guidance even someone seemingly a bit ropey can be brought on leaps and bounds, but the key is personality and how they relate to those around them. That I've found to be far more important than trying to trip someone up by pretending to be a "Bloggs." That works OK if the person testing is an FII or FIE, but not if they are still wet behind the ears themselves, since to be honest you haven't the experience to know what to look for.

Now I do, but 4 years ago? Probably not.

[HiFranc]

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post here but I believe my point is relevent. I'm in my 30s and work for a technical helpdesk. I am reconsidering where I want to be in life and I am giving serious thought to working in the aviation industry.
This is how this thread looks to me:
I've done some research and going from 0 hours (I take it playing X-Plane doesn't count ;) ) to being qualified FI is going to cost me £35-40k. To be airline qualified is going to cost me approx £70k. On top of that I would have to add rental and living costs. Just to pay my course fees I would have to sell my flat.
Flying Instructor:
Pros:
I would enjoy it more (major plus)
Cheaper course
Cons:
Pay (from another thread on this board: 17k if you're lucky)
Course (when taken with living costs) may be too expensive after pay mortgage provider
Airline:
Pros:
More pay on qualifying
Better chance of job?
Cons:
Would enjoy less
Course definitely beyond my means.
The way it's looking, I may be better just doing correspondence courses for the industry I'm in. Within a few years I'd be earning more money and still have my home. However, it's not a path I would want to go on.

Francisco

[foxmoth]

Course definitely beyond my means.

The difference is you could probably get a bank loan against future earnings going the ATPL route - not likely for F.I.:oh:

[airpilot]

I too have heard that many experienced instructors had interviews at cambridge and didn't get a look in. I wonder why?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Obviously not competent...........:suspect:

[unfazed]

"Obviously not competent" Sorry SAS but are you clairvoyant ? If they had a CAA FI ticket they must have known something - what about considering the other possibilities ? What if they were just up against a time wasting stuck in the past outfit ? (I have no evidence to suggest that that is the case but am just surprised that SAS seems so definite, would like to know if he sat in on any interviews at CAC??):confused:

[Mr Man]

Sas,
Your post on 5 Feb sums things up in my opinion.
Prior to entering aviation,I ran my own business for 15 years,and became tuned to trusting my instinct when recruiting.It astounds me the accuracy of instinct,and the actual content of knowledge and experience improves beyond all recognition with the "right" person,far more important than "tests".

[Say again s l o w l y]

Unfazed, have you actually read my previous posts......

[unfazed]

SAS - I appear to have got the wreong end of the stick so apologies ! Looks like we are both in agreement, I now see that your last post was most likely a bit of "irony" - that will teach me to reply without putting my brain in gear !

[Send Clowns]

HiFrank

Not sure where you get the figure of £70k for airline job. If you end up in a company that bonds you rather than asking you to pay upfront for a type rating (the split seems to be even for my friends) then it coasts less than an being an instructor, assuming you still go for the IR. You can get there for liottle more than £40k, training in the UK. Also I would say you would have more chance of a job with an instructor rating. Ironically this is because there is a strong airline job market, so lots of instructors I know are leaving.

[HiFranc]

When I posted my first post the figures I was using came from Stapleford (http://www.flysfc.com/new/aboutuscommercial.html).[1] Since then my preferred one is a local(ish) one to me, Cleveland Flying School (http://www.clevelandflying.co.uk/advanced1.htm) which does offer the course for 40k or so.

However, if I go there I won't be selling my flat so will have to work FT (may be able to arrange shifts around course) so finance is still a problem and will only be part-time studying. I've already spoken to the Head of Training and he said that, if training is my goal, then I could halve my costs by leaving out MEP, etc.

I'm thinking about it and have building up a set of questions to ask him (can't keep phoning every day with more questions) but I'm still in two minds. Looked at coldly, I'll be spending £20-40k to get a job which pays approximately what I'm getting now -- that seems silly (especially as I'll need to get myself a loan to pay for the course). Looked at from a job satisfaction point of view (which is the priority) I feel that the job would be a lot more rewarding for me and, despite the potential caveat about heights below, I believe I will love it.

One complication is that I'm afraid of heights. I'm OK in heavy metal jets (loved them as a child, view them as normal now). The only time I've ever been in a light aircraft was as a passenger on a scenic mountain flight and every time I felt the wind move the plane my fear took hold. On the same lines I have mild exercise induced asthma. I should keep my attacks, very rare, under control by taking a couple of puffs on my inhaler a few minutes before flying but would it be enough to make me fail the medical?

Among my other concerns is whether leaving out things like MEP would harm my promotion prospects -- it's not worth trying unless I'm going to have a career! As I would be studying part time, I won't be graduating for 2-5 years and I don't know what the job market then would be.

I'm talking to my building society about arranging finance should I decide to go ahead and I will be looking to book a trial lesson to see how I really feel in the cockpit. I hope to combine that with an appointment with the Head of Training to discuss everything. However, due to the wages in flight instructing it is not simple.

[1] If you look at the PDF file for the commercial course it states that to get qualified it's £28-30k for the basic courses, £26.6k for flight sim training, £6k for FI, £2.3k for MCC, E3-5k in exam fees and the like, etc. It works out about £70k.

[shortstripper]

HiFranc

First off, my disclaimer. I'm not a professional pilot, so take or leave my advice. I have however, been flying since the mid 80's and have often looked at going pro ... but haven't (yet).

So ....

Not trying to widdle on your fireworks, but I think you may be on the edge of a slope you really don't want to slide down!

I kind of think from your posts that you may know this already, but perhaps want to keep the dream alive? There's nothing wrong a with dreaming, but in reality you need to at least put your toe in the water before you leap.

Before anything else, find out if you actually like to fly! Don't worry about the fear of heights, it's something many pilots suffer strangely enough (I'm one! If I stand "or rather crawl" to the edge of a cliff I feel distinctly uncomfy! but stick me in a box with wings and I'm fine). If you get past this stage, you may fall so deeply in love with flying that all those other questions go out the window anyway, so problem solved! If you find yourself ok with the flying, but still unconvinced about the career change, then you have to be more logical in your approach and ask why you really want to do it? Still thinking it may be a good idea? Then here's a reality check .... Whilst you certainly aren't too old, you are not at the most attractive age to airlines. The asthma, may be ok? but again, it's another little thing that puts you behind the next candidate. These things may not be barriers to someone who's determined enough, but that's why I said earlier that if you fall in love with flying then your questions are answered.

They, and your other concerns are real though, so think hard and do at least get some real flying in (perhaps a PPL) before getting a loan and paying out for a "Zero -ATPL in three easy steps" course!

SS (non professional pilot but very professional dreamer myself :\ )

[HiFranc]

shortstripper,

Thank you for your reply. Your words have given me food for thought. The idea about getting a PPL first sounds sensible.

[HiFranc]

I checked with my BS. Short of a miracle, I'm not going to be able to afford to do any commercial flight courses. Oh well, thank you for listening.