Concern - FI shortage
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Concern - FI shortage
We'd like to hear some views on this. As predicted by many of us, there seems to be a real shortage of FIs in the UK. Market forces and training requirements are all conspiring to make things worse. Before long the GA training arena could really suffer, and worst of all many schools may have to give up.
Comments....?
Comments....?
This opinion appears to contradict the many posts where FIs are looking for opportunities to instruct and simply can't find them! I have heard many debate the pros and cons of doing a FI course, if the perception is that there is little chance of work at the end of it!
It is probably fair to say that there is a shortage of experienced FIs, the younger ones inevitably move on to the airlines whilst the older ones fade away. There are still a number of FI(R)s looking for work.
There are many PPL holders who would like to instruct but, are put off by the CPL or even ATPL exams and associated courses. Perhaps the greatest problem is the lack of a CPL theoretical course, which is not financially viable for training providers. ICAO Annex 1 requires that FIs should demonstrate CPL level knowledge; for many years this was achieved in the UK by passing a FI pre-entry test. JAR-FCL reiterates this ICAO requirement. With a little imagination this requirement could be met by without the need to complete either the JAA CPL written exams or to attend a mandatory course of training!
It is probably fair to say that there is a shortage of experienced FIs, the younger ones inevitably move on to the airlines whilst the older ones fade away. There are still a number of FI(R)s looking for work.
There are many PPL holders who would like to instruct but, are put off by the CPL or even ATPL exams and associated courses. Perhaps the greatest problem is the lack of a CPL theoretical course, which is not financially viable for training providers. ICAO Annex 1 requires that FIs should demonstrate CPL level knowledge; for many years this was achieved in the UK by passing a FI pre-entry test. JAR-FCL reiterates this ICAO requirement. With a little imagination this requirement could be met by without the need to complete either the JAA CPL written exams or to attend a mandatory course of training!
Jet Blast Rat
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I just had to cover because a local school had been so desperate they took on an instructor before he had finished his course. Weather delayed him so they had booked a few lessons in for him, I was at a loose end waiting to start training for my next job, and was asked to help out. They want me to get back in touch if I can work at all over the summer, as they anticipate a need for instructors.
While I have some experience as an instructor, they clearly were also looking at someone so inexperienced he wasn't yet qualified! I am not sure who you are talking to Whopity. Are they actively looking for work? Do they have personality for the job?
Agree that it should be possible to instruct with a PPL without recourse to CPL exams, and think anyone instructing should be paid, regardless of licence. The system was not broken, why did JAA have to fix it?
While I have some experience as an instructor, they clearly were also looking at someone so inexperienced he wasn't yet qualified! I am not sure who you are talking to Whopity. Are they actively looking for work? Do they have personality for the job?
Agree that it should be possible to instruct with a PPL without recourse to CPL exams, and think anyone instructing should be paid, regardless of licence. The system was not broken, why did JAA have to fix it?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I suspect (and this is not based on any real information) that those instructors who say they can't find work are being too picky in where they want to work - maybe they don't want to move house, and are only looking for work at one or two airfields near their home.
If you are happy to re-locate to where the work is, I think there is plenty of work out there for new FIs, and definitely for experienced FIs.
FFF
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If you are happy to re-locate to where the work is, I think there is plenty of work out there for new FIs, and definitely for experienced FIs.
FFF
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Sounds like good news to me. With the upsurge in the job market good FI's are finally being seen as a resource to look after and develop. Lets hope it leads to an improvement in t&c's and salary rises. This will lead to more people wanting to become FI's. Market forces at work. Employers have had it very good for a long time now!
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Guy's
I've just started an FI course and have two schools who have already expressed an interest.
I think the work is there - but it always helps if you have had dealings with the schools in the past as a student.
Am enjoying the FI course so far!
Red
I've just started an FI course and have two schools who have already expressed an interest.
I think the work is there - but it always helps if you have had dealings with the schools in the past as a student.
Am enjoying the FI course so far!
Red
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There is such a large amount of movement in the whole aviation industry at the moment, it's hardly surprising that FI's are thin on the ground.
People straight out of training are easy to find, but anyone with any experience and especially those with IR and aero's experience are like gold dust.
Can we solve this problem by allowing PPL's to instruct? To a certain extent, but we must be careful not to get to old problem of having people instruct for free. If the CAA were to allow all holder's of FI ratings to be paid, then go for it.
Otherwise, the industry will just have wake up and smell the coffee and people will just have to accept that an FI will cost alot more. Hopefully the days of £10/flying hour will soon be long gone. (They certainly are in my club, but I'm not so sure about others.)
People straight out of training are easy to find, but anyone with any experience and especially those with IR and aero's experience are like gold dust.
Can we solve this problem by allowing PPL's to instruct? To a certain extent, but we must be careful not to get to old problem of having people instruct for free. If the CAA were to allow all holder's of FI ratings to be paid, then go for it.
Otherwise, the industry will just have wake up and smell the coffee and people will just have to accept that an FI will cost alot more. Hopefully the days of £10/flying hour will soon be long gone. (They certainly are in my club, but I'm not so sure about others.)
Gizajob
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I'm picky...
FFF is right where I'm concerned. I'm in a well-paid job currently and although I'm prepared to take a large drop in salary to fly full-time, I want something in return. That something would be an employer that can develop my piloting and instructing skills, won't go bust overnight, offers a decent working environment and ideally pays enough to keep the wolf from the door - all year round. Picky? Probably - but I'm serious about a flying career.
Only judging by posts on this site (which may or may not be representative of the general situation!), it seems to me that there are some slightly older 'career changers' looking for a sensible move into aviation and a load of younger folks whose eyes light up only when a jet turbine is mentioned. The former are more likely to consider instructing as an option but they are the smaller group. That, combined with the general movement industry-wide and you get your shortage at GA club level.
Only judging by posts on this site (which may or may not be representative of the general situation!), it seems to me that there are some slightly older 'career changers' looking for a sensible move into aviation and a load of younger folks whose eyes light up only when a jet turbine is mentioned. The former are more likely to consider instructing as an option but they are the smaller group. That, combined with the general movement industry-wide and you get your shortage at GA club level.
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those instructors who say they can't find work are being too picky in where they want to work - maybe they don't want to move house, and are only looking for work at one or two airfields near their home.
Not that my school could afford to pay me much mroe anyway, Ive seen how much profit we make an hour and its rather shocking....
Jet Blast Rat
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Not sure where you are, Benix, but the going rate in the South East is from £15-20 per hour. If anything that is likely to rise in the near future. I see elsewhere that Cambridge is offering a reasonable salary and conditions!
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Cambridge Aero Club
I noticed that you have run a number of adverts for FI's over the past year
I also know a couple of experienced instructors who didn't even get an interview
Makes me wonder why you can't hold onto people ?
and why you don't interview those who would like to work for you ?
I noticed that you have run a number of adverts for FI's over the past year
I also know a couple of experienced instructors who didn't even get an interview
Makes me wonder why you can't hold onto people ?
and why you don't interview those who would like to work for you ?
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Unwilling to work for peanuts = Shortage
When the average wage for an FI exceeds the national average yearly wage then we can talk about shortage.
Many FIs earn no more than the average office cleaner - so according to the law of supply and demand it hardly classifies as a shortage occupation..
Its just that people dont like working for peanuts esp whem they have massive debt.................
Many FIs earn no more than the average office cleaner - so according to the law of supply and demand it hardly classifies as a shortage occupation..
Its just that people dont like working for peanuts esp whem they have massive debt.................
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I was offered a job instructing before starting my FI course.
Flight instruction seems to be great fun so far, and extremely rewarding. That said the wage is not enough to make it a long term prospect. I will have to use savings to subsidise my salary (working 60 hours a week, 6 days a week) and I know other FI's in a worse position at other schools. Unless this changes I can't see why anyone would want to become an instructor as a career choice. Yes flying is great fun, but you do need to live.
From other guys I've spoken to it seems two years is about all you can handle of basic PPL instruction full time.
Flight instruction seems to be great fun so far, and extremely rewarding. That said the wage is not enough to make it a long term prospect. I will have to use savings to subsidise my salary (working 60 hours a week, 6 days a week) and I know other FI's in a worse position at other schools. Unless this changes I can't see why anyone would want to become an instructor as a career choice. Yes flying is great fun, but you do need to live.
From other guys I've spoken to it seems two years is about all you can handle of basic PPL instruction full time.
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Unwilling to work for peanuts = Shortage
>When the average wage for an FI exceeds the national average yearly wage then we can talk >about shortage.Many FIs earn no more than the average office cleaner - so according to the law >of supply and demand it hardly classifies as a shortage occupation..
>Its just that people dont like working for peanuts esp when they have massive debt.................
Some factors by observation that influnce FI numbers
1. Older FIs retiring
2. Silly exam system much like the IR that puts people off
3. Low salary / Pension
4. Higher UK debt and the need to service loans
5. Widening technological gulf and lack of credit for experience (Airline vs GA)
6. Some FIs leaving to find other work (some to airlines)
7. Very poor perceived career prospects
8. Elderly GA fleets worldwide - unpleasant working environment
9. Implementation of MPL Sub part K Lasors and a further separation in value of GA vs. airline experience
10. People talking on the internet and being unimpressed by what was once 'good enough'
>Its just that people dont like working for peanuts esp when they have massive debt.................
Some factors by observation that influnce FI numbers
1. Older FIs retiring
2. Silly exam system much like the IR that puts people off
3. Low salary / Pension
4. Higher UK debt and the need to service loans
5. Widening technological gulf and lack of credit for experience (Airline vs GA)
6. Some FIs leaving to find other work (some to airlines)
7. Very poor perceived career prospects
8. Elderly GA fleets worldwide - unpleasant working environment
9. Implementation of MPL Sub part K Lasors and a further separation in value of GA vs. airline experience
10. People talking on the internet and being unimpressed by what was once 'good enough'
Last edited by RVR800; 24th Jan 2006 at 09:09.
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Well said Unfazed...
I know of a very experienced instructor who is very well respected who had a number of interviews with Cambridge Aero Club and was turned down - he was one of many apparently.....can't help but think the problem is with Cambridge Aero Club...
And well said FlyingForFun, your not fussy on where you work are you....BLACKPOOL!!!!! Shivers down me spine at the mention of the place!
And well said FlyingForFun, your not fussy on where you work are you....BLACKPOOL!!!!! Shivers down me spine at the mention of the place!
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Mmmm……weird one this! If this post seems a little bitter,I can assure you it’s not intended,as I’m very happy with the the school that I’m instructing at,happy with my instructional skills,and happy with the number of hours flown,well in excess of my colleagues who went to other schools.
I attended an interview with CAC the DAY after passing my FI test.I was happy with the situation,and had an interview and a flight with the manager.I was invited back for a test flight with Marshals chief test pilot,a very nice guy.The flight was very wooden from my point of view,teach S & L to a guy with a zillion hours,me with zero instructing hours,but don’t worry,it’s NOT A TEST.
A few days later was told “Sorry,we’re looking for someone with more instructional experience” ??????
Now I understand that I am not automatically entitled to a job,and I know CAC must be doing something right,as I think it’s the oldest flying club in the UK.I also know that they maybe simply didn’t like me,which is fine,( great quote “What others think of me, is none of my business”),but why ask me down again, and then decide you need an experienced instructor?
Two trips to Cambridge,one overnight stay,two hours looking at accommodation?
FI shortage? Probably,but not at many of the schools that I deal with.
I have to say that I found the school friendly, professional,and efficient,and I was told that they pay well,but I would suggest that they look at wether they like the person based on gut instinct,because we all know that an instructors flying skills develop out of all proportion within a couple of weeks.
I am very proud of a comment made to me by one of my students,a head teacher with 35 years experience “You’re not just an instructor,you’re a true teacher,and I should know”,and I am sure that there are many,many more just like me, prepared to travel,relocate and give their best,usually on a pittance of a wage (as I said,I don’t think pay is a negative in the case of CAC)
After my experiences,I did a search and found a few comments regarding CAC’s attitude to recruitment similar to my own experiences.
In a nutshell I would say that I was ready and willing to do a good job,I was happy with the club,and I am a good instructor.If they didn’t like me,fine,but maybe their FI shortage.................
isn’t all it seems.!!!!
I attended an interview with CAC the DAY after passing my FI test.I was happy with the situation,and had an interview and a flight with the manager.I was invited back for a test flight with Marshals chief test pilot,a very nice guy.The flight was very wooden from my point of view,teach S & L to a guy with a zillion hours,me with zero instructing hours,but don’t worry,it’s NOT A TEST.
A few days later was told “Sorry,we’re looking for someone with more instructional experience” ??????
Now I understand that I am not automatically entitled to a job,and I know CAC must be doing something right,as I think it’s the oldest flying club in the UK.I also know that they maybe simply didn’t like me,which is fine,( great quote “What others think of me, is none of my business”),but why ask me down again, and then decide you need an experienced instructor?
Two trips to Cambridge,one overnight stay,two hours looking at accommodation?
FI shortage? Probably,but not at many of the schools that I deal with.
I have to say that I found the school friendly, professional,and efficient,and I was told that they pay well,but I would suggest that they look at wether they like the person based on gut instinct,because we all know that an instructors flying skills develop out of all proportion within a couple of weeks.
I am very proud of a comment made to me by one of my students,a head teacher with 35 years experience “You’re not just an instructor,you’re a true teacher,and I should know”,and I am sure that there are many,many more just like me, prepared to travel,relocate and give their best,usually on a pittance of a wage (as I said,I don’t think pay is a negative in the case of CAC)
After my experiences,I did a search and found a few comments regarding CAC’s attitude to recruitment similar to my own experiences.
In a nutshell I would say that I was ready and willing to do a good job,I was happy with the club,and I am a good instructor.If they didn’t like me,fine,but maybe their FI shortage.................
isn’t all it seems.!!!!
Jet Blast Rat
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RVR800
"... the law of supply and demand ..."
You are looking only at the supply side. From the club's point of view they have to balance supply of instructional talent (as well as aircraft of course and day-to-day services) and demand from students. Flying is expensive, on the edge of many students' ability to pay. If pay goes up much then they will lose a disproportionate amount of custom. While there are some people willing to do work they enjoy for little reward the pay will remain low. I worked part-time for enjoyment and experience of instructing and hours, not for the small pay I took, and it has been rewarding to me to have those hours, as it go me into another job.
Having said that there is certainly upward pressure on pay.
"... the law of supply and demand ..."
You are looking only at the supply side. From the club's point of view they have to balance supply of instructional talent (as well as aircraft of course and day-to-day services) and demand from students. Flying is expensive, on the edge of many students' ability to pay. If pay goes up much then they will lose a disproportionate amount of custom. While there are some people willing to do work they enjoy for little reward the pay will remain low. I worked part-time for enjoyment and experience of instructing and hours, not for the small pay I took, and it has been rewarding to me to have those hours, as it go me into another job.
Having said that there is certainly upward pressure on pay.
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SendClowns
Sorry fail to see the actual point that you are making in your last post ??
If CAC are interviewing then it is reasonable to assume that they have identified a need for an instructor and are capable of "resourcing" that need.
Based on the posts so far it would appear that all is not as it might appear at CAC. One reason for multiple adverts might be unreasonable or unrealistic expectations (normally running alongside large personality / ego). Just a guess to stimulate some debate.
Sorry fail to see the actual point that you are making in your last post ??
If CAC are interviewing then it is reasonable to assume that they have identified a need for an instructor and are capable of "resourcing" that need.
Based on the posts so far it would appear that all is not as it might appear at CAC. One reason for multiple adverts might be unreasonable or unrealistic expectations (normally running alongside large personality / ego). Just a guess to stimulate some debate.
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Cambridge aero club!
The real facts about cambridge aero club.
No, the subject is any potential FI shortage. - Rob
Please, no spelling, grammar, whingers......... and moderators, if someones starts a thread, why lock them out before they can reply???
No, the subject is any potential FI shortage. - Rob
Please, no spelling, grammar, whingers......... and moderators, if someones starts a thread, why lock them out before they can reply???