Flying from Fairoaks - inside Heathrow CTZ

[CherokeeDriver]

Hi

I am a low Hour PPL - trained in the USA. Having my first "check out" ride with FI at Fairoaks tomorrow (weather permitting!). FI will obviously go over the proceedure to get in and out in the ground brief, but very interested in hints and tips from you guys. I just want to make sure I 100% understand what I can do to ensure I don't cause a CTZ unauthorised incursion.

Thanks for your help - apologies if you've covered this before - couldn't find it in a search.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Dead easy - stay within the Local Flying Area, which is shown on charts, not above 1500 ft, which I'm sure your instructors will have explained to you. If you become unsure of your position don't hesitate to contact Heathrow or Farnborough Radar for assistance. They'll do everything possible to help you get back on course.
Good luck with your flying...

[CherokeeDriver]

Thanks HeathrowDirector - I was hoping it would be as easy as that.

Can I assume I should squark mode C at all times to assist you guys with identification if I go a little "off course" at any time? There has been a suggestion (not by my FI, but someone I talked to) that not squarking Charlie *may* be benificial in case you accidentally "bust" the ceiling - you have a chance to lose some altititude before it is noticed by you guys? What are your thoughts on that? Personally I was taught to ALWAYS squark Charlie in the air - the mantra being see and be seen.

[AlanM]

As HD says - it is normally fairly easy.

There are some fairly good land marks that will always keep you safe (even if outside the LFA)

DON'T GO NORTH OF THE M3!
DON'T GO EAST OF THE M25!

(obviously you should should stay in the LFA anyway which will keep you clear)

DON'T GO towards Bracknell or anywhere in the zone until good 2-way with 125.62 and have been identified as you will of course be SVFR and there are helicopters routeing to the EAST of the M25 over Brooklands and down the M3.

Chevvron needs to chip in with the Farnborough stuff, but if you are plannig to work LF LARS on 125.25 squawk 0457 which is the conspicuity code leaving Fairoaks towards Knaphill not above 1400. They will ident you with another squawk.

Good luck - not that difficult really. But just know who to call if you are unsure at any time. Doesn't take much for you to go north and stop heathrow traffic and definite paperwork!

Somewhat shocking that is being preached by instructors to turn off the Mode C "in case you screw up". Perhaps he should spend more time teaching how not to screw up. If you do go massively above the level, we may phone Fairoaks and mention it - more about education than bollocking (you may not know what you have done wrong)

[CherokeeDriver]

AlanM

MAny thanks for your help - any information before I have my first check out ride / ground school tomorrow is gratefully recieved.

I reiterate - the comment about not squarking Charlie was NOT from an instructor, but from an "old tooth" flying club member.

I am going there tomorrow to learn/be taught how to do it properly, make sure I understand the airspace in all of the surrounding areas - and to make dammed sure I have all of the RT frequencies right in front of me on my knee board.

I will ensure that I have a print out of all comments and will go through them thoroughly with my instructor. Will probably have some more questions on Saturday afternoon after the lesson so watch this space!

[AlanM]

Sorry to mis-ident the instructor for someone with no airmanship.

Don't believe all you hear from a so called "old tooth" The fact that they are telling trainees/new people to the field this stuff is nonetheless still wrrying to say the least.

[CherokeeDriver]

AlanM - agree completely. Being conspicuous, having good airmanship and making the time for good ground preperation were drilled into me by the FI that took me from Zero to JAA PPL Pass in the USA. Rest assured I will be using all of the good training I have recieved back in the UK. Once again thanks for making the time to answer what, to you, must be very routine questions!:ok:

[AlanM]

You are welcome - and when you get a bit braver in the local area do an ASCOT-BUR or vice versa!

[Another_CFI]

There are handouts available at Fairoaks showing the standard methods of departing and joining the circuit, including the odd occasions when Farnborough has temporary controlled airspace.
I will leave a copy of these handouts with the receptionist.

[chevvron]

All I can say is be aware that Farnborough instrument traffic for the westerly runway will pass just south west of Fairoaks ie over the 'standard' Fairoaks VFR departure at 1900ft alt, hence the 1400ft lid on departures under a Letter of Agreement.
Use mode 'C' if the aircraft has it.
When local area flying, there are lots of helpful landmarks eg Bagshot mast, A3 road from Wisley/Ockham to Guildford; Guildford has a cathedral on a hilltop but Woking only has tall buildings (which stand out from a long distance away) Going east, Epsom racecourse is unmissable!(on a hilltop once again)

[Another_CFI]

Note that the Letter of Agreement applies a cap of 1300 ft on departure - not 1400 ft.

[CherokeeDriver]

Thanks to all for your help. Looks like the great British weather has put a stop to my VFR flying today!

[Talkdownman]

Don't forget that within the Class A Local Flying Area you need a SVFR minimum 3km flight visibility, 10km without IMC rating. Nor are there any IFR procedures, something some pilots seem to forget when making multiple, fudged GPS approaches trying to get in(to a coffin).

[AlanM]

Never mind CD - soon be summer! :)

Very true TDM - saw a light twin descend through cloud and OVC007 at Farnborough/Heathrow the other day when approaching OCK from the East - and creep into Fairoaks............ never showing above 600 ft on the validated Mode C (He chose to QSY)

The most amazing thing was seeing another one do the same scud running from the west, also routeing in via OCK.

Still the fact they probaly never saw each other AND both landed safely = "Safe procedure".

Maybe the salt you spoke of CD??!??

[Another_CFI]

Talkdownman, There is a notification in the AIP with respect to Schedule 8 of the ANO which permits even a basic PPL holder to fly within the Fairoaks LFA and ATZ in a visibility of 3km.

[Talkdownman]

Thanks AW, I had my doubts about the 10Km in the LFA after I pressed send. That still doesn't excuse those who chance it it less than 3km. We have both seen them do it.

[Another_CFI]

Talkdownman. I agree

[chevvron]

It doesn't actually say from who's viewpoint the 3km is taken.
Is it 3km at Fairoaks, 3km at Heathrow or 3km as determined by the pilot?

[Talkdownman]

TC, It does say - flight visibility. ENR 1-4-2. (I had to look it up, thanks to AW. He didn't have to!)
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/20104.PDF

[chevvron]

Yes but who determines it? Is it Heathrow, Fairoaks or the pilot?

[AlanM]

The access lanes/local flying areas for Denham, White Waltham and Fairoaks, are hereby notified for the purposes of
Schedule 8, Private Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes), sub-para 2 (c) (ii) and Basic Commercial Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes)
sub-para 3 (g) (ii), of the Air Navigation Order 2005 when there is a flight visibility of at least 3 km;

And from CAP493 - Glossary:

Flight Visibility: The visibility forward from the flight deck of an aircraft in flight.
(ANO)

Any clearer Terry!!!??:eek:

[Another_CFI]

AlanM I agree, but the issue is slightly clouded by Rule 24(3), which I agree applies to VFR not SVFR flights, which states that Air Traffic can in some circumstances pass a visibility which is then taken to be the flight visibility.

I cannot find any similar reference to Class A airspace and SVFR flights. Also since Fairoaks is staffed by FISOs none of whom are qualified met observers it must come down to the pilot determining the flight visibility.

[AlanM]

....and of course the fact that there are times when there is no FISO, and of course no requirement to talk to anyone at Heathrow to get the weather.

[chevvron]

And someone with 'push-on-itis' will always claim it was more than 3km where HE was, even though all official reports say it was less!

[AlanM]

Indeed. Scarey to watch on radar more than 1x twin do it at 800ft from opposite directions when the FISO had gone home..... The beauty of blind calls eh!??!

Same for the LCTR of course - Mnimum In flight Vis of 1000m for the heli routes is needed. Makes you wonder sometimes when LHR/LCY both down to 500m/OVC003!

[Widger]

Just adding my 5 penny worth regarding Mode C. You need to tell that old salt, that he is encouraging people to remove one of the main aviation safety nets (TCAS). Far better to set TCAS off and deal with a bit of paperwork than penetrate CAS and get very close, or even hit some heavy metal. It not only protects the airliner but protects you as well from collision/wake turbelence etc, if you inadvertantly stray.

Whilst paperwork may well be filed on an unauthorised penetration, most professionals in the industry are usually quite forgiving as long as lessons have been learnt, especially if you follow up said mis-demeanour with a telephone call.

[TheOddOne]

We operate from Denham, on the other side of Heathrow's Zone from Fairoaks.

We've always been taught to de-select the transponder when recovering to the circuit, in response to this guidance from the CAA;

1.2 In airspace where the operation of transponders is not mandatory pilots of suitably equipped aircraft should comply with
paragraph 2.2 except when remaining within an aerodrome traffic pattern below 3000 ft agl.

I select 7000 'on' during the climbout once outside the Denham LFA and 'standby' upon re-entering it. There can easily be 5 or 6 a/c in the LFA one way or another and I'm sure they just appear as a mish-mash on the display, hardly helpful. We also have Northout overflights @ 1,500' - I guess they've been assigned a code and it's going to be totally obscured by a load of '7000' returns if we leave our boxes on.

That's a good, positive reasoning for NOT having the transponder on - much better than the 'don't get a bust' which is really bad airmanship (as already stated!)

Cheers,
The Odd One

[Talkdownman]

Odd One, you have been misguided and your teachers are out of date. You have no 'good, positive reason for NOT having the transponder on'. See:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gad_gasil2002_04.pdf
Re. Transponder use in the circuit:
Whenever possible, pilots with a serviceable transponder should select and transmit code 7000 with altitude reporting (mode C) at all times, unless one of the following conditions apply: .................. The aircraft is operating within a visual circuit and local procedures require the transponder to be set to standby
See also SSR OPERATING PROCEDURES:
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2010602.PDF
It is essential that any wayward aircraft are immediately as conspicuous as possible in order that avoiding action may be taken. Unless you can quote Denham procedures to the contrary set A7000 with Alt whenever possible for everyone's good. Please pass this on to your instructors.The 'mish-mash', as you call it, is better than nothing at all, which is what you are advocating.

[AlanM]

I agree with TDM. It is virtually impossible (until it is too late) to see a wayward maggot trying to find LM/TF/LD who strays out of or through the LFA.

There are also lots of fast twins/helis that are TCAS equipped and rely on you showing. Don't worry about the 7000s garbling - if I want to ident you I will give you a discrete code.

[Talkdownman]

Use of the access lanes/local flying areas for Denham, White Waltham and Fairoaks is subject to special procedures. Effectively they are special concessions for the user within Class A airspace.
The moment an aircraft strays from those access lanes/local flying areas into the CTR proper it becomes unknown traffic and ATC must establish 5nm or 5000ft separation immediately, which is pretty difficult to say the least. Please play the game.

[CherokeeDriver]

So to conclude:

Fairoaks has a dispensation for aircraft to arrive and depart based on the following;

1. The ceiling height of the arrival and departure is 1400ft to ensure that traffic inbound / outbaound to Farnborough has adequate seperation
2. The 3km visability rule applies, as standard.

It IS considered good airmanship to ModeC 7000 at all times whilst airborne. If this becomes confusing to a controller- or you place yourself in danger the controller will either ask you to ident, or assign you a unique transponder code.

Lets hope we get some better weather this weekend so I can get up there and see all of this with my own eyes. Mets aren't looking good at the moment!

[chevvron]

Yeah but look out the window right now!!

[Another_CFI]

Another good reason why the visibility at Farnborough and Heathrow have no bearing on what is taking place at Fairoaks arose this morning.

The visibility at Fairoaks both from unofficial observations from the tower and from the magic box that measures visibility was 6000m, at around 1120. At the same time the visibility at Farnborough was 0150m in fog and at Heathrow it was 0450m in fog, which resulted in the Fairoaks visual circuit being active whilst Farnborough inbounds were diverting.

Slightly unusual since it is more common to have Fairoaks unusable due to fog whilst Farnborough and Heathrow are given reasonable visibility.

[Dannyboyblue]

Going back to the point on transponder in the circuit, everybodys point regarding it being good airmanship to keep it on is taken aboard,,, but the amount of times EGLF call to say could particular aircraft in the circuit squawk standby beacuse it would be setting off the TCAS in the aircraft on the ILS at EGLF!!!. Just to throw a spanner in the works!

Going back to joining procedures, simple version, for your squwk do what EGLF say eg standby, 7000 etc

Give Fairoaks Information a call on 123.425 about 5 miles out.
The easiest way for a first timer is to approach from the south between Ockham (vor OCK) and Woking at 1400 QFE.
For 24 desend on the dead side for a 1000 left hand circuit and join crosswind or early downwind.
For 06 again through the overhead at 1400 and desend directly onto the crosswind or early downwind leg watching for any other aircraft in the left hand circuit. (no dead side due to right hand helicopter circuits)
All circuits can be variable directions but are genrally left hand for fixed wing

And the most important thing.... if you have a problem or a question ASK! They will not bite your head off if you need help.

Some good things to look for if you want to check your position is the large tower block in woking, the kidney shaped building (huge) at the south east corner of the airfield , The old building north east of the airfield and the bright yellow hanger doors!

Anything to add ACFI? Oh and totally agree with the point about the M25 and M3.

Regards Dannyboyblue:cool:

[chevvron]

Not only Fairoaks & Farnborough affected by the transponders, it also happens at Redhill against Gatwick traffic.