View Full Version : Question for LHR ATC
In the recent BALPA magazine there is a report on Heathrow ATC.
In it, it states that ATC will exercise caution when giving A320 family a/c conditonal line up clearances.
Just wandering why?
Trying to think from your point of view, is it cos there are a large amount of A320 family operating out of LHR. So one can find many of them at the holding point at the same time, possibly with the same airline have different types at the holding point ie: A320's and 21's
Doug E Style
28th Dec 2005, 23:15
Yes, I was wondering about that too and assumed it was for the reason you mention. As the two biggest slot owners at LHR operate a variety of minibus types (as do frequent visitors like LH, AF, IB, TP and AZ), I suppose it's sensible to be careful. I found the article quite useful and will always make sure to readback "altitude" now when cleared to one. I wonder why no mention was made of the common disregard of the term "monitor" as in "monitor 118.7"...
Gonzo
29th Dec 2005, 04:12
Exactly. We've had a number of a/c line up in the wrong order due to misinterpreting a possibly ambiguous conditional line up clearance. For example, the order is: BA 319, BA 320, BA320. The clearance is after the second BA 320, but the a/c lines up after the first 320.
HEATHROW DIRECTOR
29th Dec 2005, 07:11
<<The clearance is after the second BA 320,>>
My book says conditional clearances may only relate to one aircraft but when aircraft are at a holding point it may be related to the aircraft ahead...... Presumably this is yet another situation which has changed since I packed in and one that strikes me a trifle dodgy!
Bright-Ling
29th Dec 2005, 09:33
Now for me all planes are little green blips (with loads of pointless Mode S characters trailing...... but that is another story) - but even I could see the difference between an A319 and A320.
If those that fly them have no idea.......
Gonzo - perhaps it should be "After the generic A320 family aircraft line up and wait" !?!??!
B-L :ok:
Carnage Matey!
29th Dec 2005, 13:32
Yeah but when it's dark and your following them you can't see the overwing exits to count them (which is how I tell the difference).
And there was me thinking that conditional clearances involving the runway were only allowed to include the next A/C to use that runway!
Didn't the CAA put out a poster campaign about this last year? Something like...
"After the 3rd A/C like all the others, line up"
Turn It Off
29th Dec 2005, 22:06
My book says conditional clearances may only relate to one aircraft
HD - Not sure that the rules have changed, maybe the LL guys are using a creative meaning to this.
If the clearance is worded as " After the 3rd BA 320, line up and wait" you could argue that the clearance relates to only one a/c. The fact that the 3rd Ba 320 is on a conditional subject to the 2nd, and the 2nd subject the first, an argument could be made to say that each conditional relates to 1 a/c ( I'm not sure i explained that very well but hope you can get my drift!!)
Personally, i tend to try and make a judgement call based on what I think the crew can understand I am trying to tell them. If i think the pilot can't speak good english, or, I am not explaining myself well ( 9 times out of 10 I'm sure its the latter) then why risk it. However, Im not trying to shift 50+ departes an hour, sometimes its 5 if I'm lucky!
TIO
Barnaby the Bear
29th Dec 2005, 22:23
But CM, if its dark, you shouldn't be getting those conditional clearences?!! :}
Point Seven
29th Dec 2005, 23:03
Where does it say you can't give conditional line up clearances at night?
P7
NigelOnDraft
30th Dec 2005, 05:22
Yeah but when it's dark and your following them you can't see the overwing exits to count them (which is how I tell the difference). And I hope you realise some A319 have 2 Overwing exits :)
BA 319, BA 320, BA320. The clearance is after the second BA 320, but the a/c lines up after the first 320 I am not surprised at all... In poor weather, or night, or the other ac head on, very easy mistake to make.
The LHR article was interesting, and the point about similar types seems well made - do not rely on minor type differences - as someone sometime will get it wrong...
Dizzee Rascal
30th Dec 2005, 10:41
Where does it say you can't give conditional line up clearances at night?
In MATS pt1. It is the first proviso listed!
Line Up Clearance
Line up instructions may be issued to more than one aircraft at different points on the same or crossing runways provided that:
a) it is during daylight hours;
b) all aircraft are continuously visible to the aerodrome controller;
c) all aircraft are on the same RTF frequency;
d) pilots are advised of the number of aircraft ahead in the departure sequence, and the position/runway from which these aircraft will depart;
e) the physical characteristics of the runway do not render preceding aircraft in the departure sequence invisible to succeeding aircraft on the same runway.
terrain safe
30th Dec 2005, 11:42
"Line up instructions may be issued to more than one aircraft at different points on the same or crossing runways"
Doesn't apply if they are using the same point as at LHR.:)
Dizzee Rascal
30th Dec 2005, 17:10
"Line up instructions may be issued to more than one aircraft at different points on the same or crossing runways"
Doesn't apply if they are using the same point as at LHR.
But MATS pt 1 says providing that "it is daylight only"
I don't care what you/they do at EGLL, point 7 asked Where does it say you can't give conditional line up clearances at night? now he knows!
DR
I think maybe you should re-read what it says in the MATS Part 1.
It refers to
Aircraft departing from DIFFERENT points on the SAME runway. or different runways i.e. intersection departures with an aircraft on the threshold are not permitted at night because of this rule.
Because aircraft at the same holding point are departing from the SAME POINT on the runway then the night restriction doesn't apply.
Does it make any more sense to you?
Gonzo
30th Dec 2005, 18:16
HD,
I can't believe that you never had more than one a/c with a conditional line up clearance. Some were starting to get carried away with things so we limit the number to six.
Ops and Mops
30th Dec 2005, 18:53
Line up instructions may be issued to more than one aircraft at different points on the same or crossing runways provided that:
This refers to Multiple line-ups, not conditional line ups.
i.e "After the landing" or "After the departing" is acceptable at night, "Line up and wait, number two for departure to an aircraft departing from XXX" is not acceptable at night.
Point Seven
7th Jan 2006, 23:21
DR
I asked a question and you gave me the answer... but to a different one. As stated above, those are the rules for MULTIPLE line ups not conditional line ups. Should you wish me to go through the differences for you just drop me a PM.
P7
Can you go through the differenc for me P7? ;)
yeah, please for the love of all things holy go through them with him ;)
When discussing where it is written that ATC can issue conditional line-up clearances I have this question;
Where is it written that pilots must be able to recognise other aircraft types?
It is easy for ATC because they have it written on the datadisplay but us pilots don't have that kind of info available. Yes, most of us will know most of the types but is there a requirement to do so and if not should ATC base clearances on information that the pilot may not have and may not be required to have?
Regards,
DFC
It's not, but is it too much to expect that if flight crew do not know what a said aircraft looks like, they will say so and ask for confirmation?
MAN777
8th Jan 2006, 11:11
I know what will solve the issue, wouldnt it be a great idea if BA spent a few million commisioning artists from around the world to design unique tail schemes representing their local culture. Repaint the fleet and problem solved !!!
Doug E Style
8th Jan 2006, 11:53
I doubt it is written anywhere that professional pilots should be able to recognize other aircraft types, nor is it written that you should know your left from your right, up from down or a*se from elbow. I think it all comes down to that lovely word, airmanship. I'll bet too that it's not written down anywhere that a vet should be able to tell the difference between a horse and a cow. Some things just are.
Bearcat
8th Jan 2006, 20:22
i put a post here today and its wiped.......hmmm.....jeez censorship at large. whats the point of a forum?
Could it be because you put it in the wrong forum??
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205261
PPRuNe Radar
8th Jan 2006, 22:35
It was posted in the right Forum but on the wrong thread, but you solved the riddle AlanM
Bearcat
Engage brain before typing unwarranted criticism ;) :ok:
How about pilots recognising their own aircraft type too.......
Doug E Style
9th Jan 2006, 07:27
Come off it, all baby buses look the same inside!
No I mean a 767 pilot knowing what a 767 looks like etc.....
Point Seven
9th Jan 2006, 21:04
Like the Jolly Green pilot knew what a B767 looked like you mean...?:ok:
P7