DEC's at EK

[high & fast]

Anybody got any details on the management meeting with pilots reference the recent change of policy? Are Direct Entry Capatins on the way shortly? Do you think it's worth joining as an F/O now?

[deepee]

high & fast,this is not the place to ask such a poser.The whole site has been in hibernation for months and Ramadan is just around the corner.

[MR8]

I know this question has been around a few months, but I can't find a topic spend on it, and I would first like to have some opinions and rumours before posting it to TCAS's 'rumour buster' (which hasn't been updated for a month now.. no rumours I guess :E )

How will EK get enough Captains on the B777?

:confused:

I don't have any 'correct' numbers, only go by published lists and staff numbers, so I would ask you guys to correct me...

I reckon every B777 needs about 9 crews to operate.
We currently have (including the last 3 B777-300ER) 23 B777's

203 CPT (including 10 DEC's)
200 F/O (including guys still in training)

For the next years, we'll get 1 B777 per month, ie 12/year, ie 108 Captains needed on B777 per year.

Looking at the staff numbers for the F/O's, out of 200, 61 have been here for less then a year, 30 will be F/O for life. Consider that EVERY guy left is ok for command requirements, will complete the upgrade and no resignations, that means that the pool for suitable commands on B777 will be dry in EXACTLY 1 year from now...

Million dollar question: Where will we get the remaining Captains??

Either we allow F/O's from the Airbus sector to jump to the B777 for commands or we need (read: EK management has another excuse for) DEC's to operate these Boeings.

Would it be possible for an Airbus F/O to jump ship as F/O, thus becoming B777 F/O in order to get the command on B777? Even if they require at leat one year on type before possible command, it would be a very good alternative for guys with less then 2 years in the company, and getting a sure shot at command after 3 years in the company...

My opinion is: let the F/O's do the upgrade on whatever fleet upgrades are available on; if an external DEC without rating can do it, our quality in house F/O's, often with previous Boeing experience, can surely do it..

Comments please...:zzz:

[Trashed Aviator]

Got to agree Mr8 ,
If the Airbus guys dont get the move or a course date on the ab3 then there will be great losses in the F/O ranks , greater than the patch up job of DECs.................

Better the devil you know and there is quite a few devils out there..... hang on does anybody report anything anymore.........

[Zomp]

For sure EK will go for DEC, too bad for the guys who are here for less than a year, they should have read pprune it was posted a long time ago that it will take much longer than 3 years to command.
Thats what pprune is for actually, to share information.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I find it fascinating that for an airline who prides itself on attracting the cream....or so all of you keep claiming...that 15% of your F/Os are apparently career F/Os with zero command potential?

So you are now saying the EK recruitment system has been a bit of a lottery?

I know of at least one recruit starting on the 777 soonish who has vast amounts of airline jet command experience and years as a respected TRE/IRE...perhaps he'll be changing seats sooner than he had expected?

[MR8]

Well, I mentioned in the topic starter that these numbers are based on staff lists and staff numbers.. These 30 F/O are all F/O's with very low staff numbers, e.i. F/O for life, or cadets which still don't meet the criteria for a command (6000hrs).
Anyhow, with or without these 30 guys, the problem remains.
As for your fellow comming over, if he signed as a F/O, he'll be stuck for at least 18 months in that right seat before being 'Fast-Tracked' into the left seat...

Also heard of a guy being offered DEC when on recruitment here. Although my source told me it was most likeliy for A330, he was not sure that is was not for A310...

MR8

[critical winge]

OK so whats the situation”?

777 FOs getting upgrades and joined after us. (good luck to you boys, lucky you got the 777).

ADEL insisted that there would not be anyone disadvantaged by the upgrades programs even before the DEC’s came in.

DECs come into the frame, even though some haven’t flown bigger than a 737 and its not widebody or Airbus for those not so observant.

Oh yeah, some of the senior Fos have little chats with them (Morale boosters- CRM-Flt Safety) and they say they only came here for a A380 rating. WHAT?

Rumour buster, more like Morale Blaster,total waste of time and only shows what little backbone any of the high paid help have to stand up to moral issues.

Transition Upgrades. For those on the bus does that mean to leave the airline to go back to our old airline in our old jobs as captains (again) to get our dignity back?

Off to the pharmacy to get more vaseline as the shafting is well beyond the current supply forecast.

CW

[Uplink]

Think about also the 70 or so B777 rated pilots Etihad require this year alone. I say Rated but that will be difficult to find. They will therefore pull out of the same pot as EK. At the end of it all we are all mercenaries. Who ever will pay the most will get the pilots.

As far as Boeing guys leaping ahead of Airbus guys in the command stakes. You have short memories. Airbus guys were doing the very same to the Boeing guys a couple of years ago, just after they did away with the Transition upgrade. In one or two years the reverse will happen again as the A380 arrives and they need the bodies there.

:confused:

[411A]

For those who want to join any middle east airline (and not just EK) had better realise from the beginning that, once the employment contract is signed and dated...what you see is what you get, be it F/O or Command straight away.
Upgrades are at the pleasure of the respective company, regardless of past experience.

Like it or lump it, makes no difference.

Always has been, always will be, no matter what is promised afterwards.
And, as many have found out to their dismay, the 'goal posts' are a movin' constantly...also again at the companies pleasure.

Anyone dis-agree?

Don't like it...go elsewhere (after training, of course).:E

[SimCity]

If Emirates continues to hire DECs, the first officer ranks will drain. It will cost double compared to honoring the seniority list.

[LHR Rain]

We as a pilot group have got to get the word out that the DECs are not welcome at EK. I know I have said it before but when the word goes out and we back it up with our actions I guarentee that the applications for DECs will dry up and this will only help the FOs cause.

[picu]

LHR Rain,
I am not in favour of DECs being employed by the company because I think we have a smashing lot of very capable F/Os who should be upgraded instead.
But following your post regarding local F/Os in the other thread (pilot shortage) I dread to think of the day when your upgrade comes up. Last thing this company needs is someone like you in the left seat.
I fly with the local F/os all the time - a very professional group of people overall, with the odd exception perhaps.
Your comments were out of line, especially since the locals were getting shafted as much as anybody else. (past tense because as far as I know no more DECs are being employed)

[LHR Rain]

EKwife
I don't know where you come from that makes you think that Dubai and EK is so great but wake up! Half the actions that EK employes would be illegal in the first world. If you compare Europe to the middle east it does not even stack up and any attempt to do so only ridicules your intelligence. If EK is so great than why have so many pilots left and the applications dried up? It might be good for you but don't compare me and my country to your third world mentality. By the way the FOs stopped coming when the DECs were announced, not because of my or anyone elses comments. Get it straight.

PICU
I don't disagree with you but my question was why are there so many ex-pats in the middle east and hardly any arabs in Europe? There has to be a reason and I am curious what your reason might be. I have mine and I am sure that you have yours.

[LHR Rain]

EK Wife

So I like to look at myself in the mirror and that is the reason for me not being captain? I finally have figured out why I am jerking gear for captains instead of being one. I look too much in the mirror. I just told my girlfriend to take all of our mirrors out of our apartment and I am anxioulsy awaiting my command interview phone call. It should come today and I can't wait!
I can whinge about Dubai and EK just as much as you are allowed to brag about the same. What makes you think that you are right and I am wrong? The same goes for me. I don't know if I am right or not but I do know that a lot of the stuff EK pulls (contract changes, factoring, approvals on the leaves, flight hours, etc etc) would never be tolerated in Europe or any developed country. You can tell the would be applicates about how great you think this place is and I will tell all about what EK does not tell the interviewee in the process and if I am wrong please let us know. You have the same rights that I and everyone else has in the world.
Everyone I know at EK is at the very least dissapointed in the recent changes involving EK. Some have put out CVs and some have even taken the drastic step of leaving which is no small measure to be taken lightly.
By the way I don't have a maid or a gardner. I imagine that where you come from you would have to pay taxes and a real wage to have your luxories here in the sand so enjoy this little bit of heaven you have. Did you give the hired help the raise you talked about?
I guess when I get taller I can have my command. Now I am going to hang from door way to strech myself.

[Trashed Aviator]

So Funny what would an EK Wife no about how ****** up a job it is , and if you are an F/o with kids you probably cant afford a maid.
The best thing is the man can cancel his wifes visa without reason here so you can be sent home on a moments notice.....:ouch:

[puff m'call]

Having read this thread i have to say that EKwife is talking sense, we do need the F/O's to file the ranks, it's where they come from bothers me!

This airline has potential to be a great airline and all it needs is for the "management" to pull their overpaid, over bonused heads out of the sand and start to use the the talented in house work force we have.

As we all know there is a wealth of experience sitting in the right seats of our aircfaft, my message to the "management" is........

"WAKE UP SMELL THE COFFEE" and "BLOODY WELL USE IT".

[Scooter Rassmussin]

I think you are right we need lots more great F/Os but they are worried . I have a friend offered a job here he went to Qatar instead , as a captain mind you. Also heard Qatar may look at Ek F/os who may be able to go in as Decs , but you have to resign first ,call them.
At least they r trying to do the right thing over at Qr knowing they have many A/C to crew.....
With the known orders on the 777 the list of commands should be out at least 1 year ahead of time including transitions...
For EK to save a few pennies now on training they will pay a large penalty in the long term............! look out....

[donpizmeov]

I think one of the best recruiting tools EK has is the word of mouth from those employed here. It was not that long ago that never a bad word about this company was posted here. Those were the times of huge amounts of applications for the job.
Well I think the fellas are still telling their mates that are interested in joining, all about the company. It is not our fault that the information is not as good as it once was. I am sure if things start to improve here the applicates will return.
So even though it might be in your own short term interest to polish up the package here to get other suckers in, I am not sure it will help for the longer term. But it will cause a even lower moral in the company, as these new joiners find out what it is really like.
So EKwife, I am not too sure I do like your tactic of only telling the rosey picture to ensure the upgrade of EKhusband. Seems very selfish really. Instead I think we should just stay with the facts. For some the bad bits of the package over here outway the good bits, for others its the other way around. Just stay with the facts and let people make an informed decision.

Don

[Payscale]

The more potential FOs LHRrain scares away with his personal views, the more EK has to paid to change their minds again...

Point being that, that with all these new aircraft coming over the next few years, drivers will have to come from somewhere. EK now has to share with the other Gulf airlines.

Either you look for DEC and 2000 Hr FOs or 8000 Hr FOs with command potential. DECs and old FOs is an explosive combination.

Expats will follow the money trail. If the T&Cs are better in Togo tomorrow, thats where people will go. We are the corporate mercenaries. And so what....

I have been an expat for 20 years, all around the world. The key is not to compare. Dubai is not Europe, and Europe is not Dubai. Find your peace or find another airline, because here you cant influence the conditions.

[turtleneck]

most pilots are no fools, they wouldn't let themselves be put off by stupid comments on these sites.
they will consider them but they can certainly filter out the bias. so put down whatever you like.
i am only astounded by some double standards displayed. EK's way of treating people is bashed, but the same
guys display a shameful attitude regarding others, like locals and now women. DEC's are discredited,
even to the point of threatening with "actions", but the same guys loathe QR for apparently luring
EK FO's as DEC's.
state your oppinion, but remain consistent, values should be the same for everyone and everywhere.
it boosts your credibility and will certainly make your upgrade a bit easier on you.

[sluggums]

EkDECwife, of course you're happy here your husband hasn't been shafted by a set of stupid rules like a lot of the FO's here.

If I were you I wouldn't get too involved with the upgrade issues given your personal circumstances:hmm:

[jumbo1]

As usual things tend to get too personal. We all have our point of view. Dubai is not Eden but it's not the worst place on earth either. Regarding DEC's. Pro's and cons. I totally disagree with the principle of DEC's but for colleagues to propose action"against these guys is childish. They are not the problem. Who created the problem? Not the DEC's.
What we need to do is get on with our jobs in the professional, safe manner in which we are accustomed to doing it. The numbers game will sort itself out in due course. The reality is there are a busload of aircraft coming, so who is going to fly them? Even giving every F/O eligible in the company their upgrade, we are still going to fall short. As mentioned in previous posts, we are not the only airline in the area scratching for pilots. Competition is mounting, as is the pressure on certain elements in the airline to find ENOUGH, suitably qualified pilots to fly these aircraft - tough job in the current climate, irrespective of what we are told. (25 applicants a day etc etc).
I have no doubt cross fleet upgrades will follow in due course, as will another package review. Want pilots - must pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the meantime, all F/O's keep preparing for those upgrades, keep playing golf, having coffee mornings at Lime Tree, nights out at Longs or whatever else it is you do for fun. Life might be frustrating, but hey guys, I once heard about a guy who whenever he was depressed bought a bottle of Jack Daniels, 2 Havana cigars and would go sit in a graveyard. He would drink the Jack, smoke the cigars then look around and say - WELL, compared to these guys around me I aint doing too bad!
Puts things in perspective a little bit huh?
Watch this space
Keep discovering.....................................

[KunnDize]

Talking about "actions" to scare off DECs is a bad road to go down. It was probably said after a beer or three and/or a really bad day at the office and then forgotten.


Interesting listening to the lecture from the wife of a guy who has rolled up in the last few months, a year maximum and went -

Straight to LHS
Straight to higher payscale than some existing capts
Straight to villa, kids or not
And in some cases did not even have the widebody or currency on most recent type which was a "requirement".

Great if it's you, well done, congrats. Not so great if you're waiting for your upgrade. You seem to not care that these things YOU take for granted are, after years here, a little more important to FOs.

The wife seems to be coming from sort sort of fantasy land:

-"FOs stop coming due to the whinging, so they will hire more DECs"? To do what, become FOs?

If FOs stop coming, they will improve the conditions to attract them. It is a simple matter of supply/demand. How can I put it any simpler? Why do you think the engineers have not had a pay-rise this year?

Please try to use common sense if you're going to talk down to people who have been here for years, lest you be held in the same regard as Dumpvalve, another infamous "ekwife".

Unless that's you, Dumpvalve, having some fun with a new name???

Everybody's time will come Some wise words there by the wife. The time would come a lot quicker without DECs if EK removed their self-imposed promotion criteria shackles.many years back when my husband was an FO and he was upset at not getting his command Sounds like nothing's changed then, hey? I guess we look out for ourselves.

My suggestion:

Go introduce yourself to Dumpvalve, if that isn't you anyway, and have regular meetings in Jumeirah to discuss watering the jingly const workers or whatever. Try to avoid the temptation to dispense advice here to people who resent, not you and your husband, but the situation that led to the presence of DECs when they are not truly necessary.

[donpizmeov]

EKwife,

Lets see, you are still in the 12 to 18 month honeymoon period here. You have never had to try and survive on an FOs salary here. You have never had to try and survive on the junior Captains salary here. You think its a great place. Fantastic. I am very happy that the decision to move here has worked out so well. But I would like you to consider that for others things may not be so rosey for a whole bunch of other issues, a search of this site will explain. And these will be the issues that effect a new joining FO.

As others have said, its not all bad here. But, this is just another job. It is not up to us to try and sugar coat some of the decisions that have been made recently. In fact, I think it is of some help that guys are fully aware of what is happening before they arrive, this might help kerb the no-shows for courses etc.
If you look at the forums you will see that a pretty good balance can be seen, from the good to the bad . This is the way it should be, let the new joiners see all this and decide if its right for them.

Don.

[sanddancer]

EK Wife

For your information a very large proportion of EK's FO's were Captains in previous companies - many, like myself, were lured here by the absolute assertion at interview that we qualified for accelerated commands and the companies stated intent not to hire DEC's (because it could be so divisive said the recruiter) - guess what..

I turned up to be told on day one that the rules had changed and moving back to the LHS would now take a minimum of three years (possibly considerably longer for those on the Airbus fleet). Less than six months after arriving I saw the first DEC's turn up - whilst I don't have a single gripe with the individuals who take up the opportunity, I, like many others, have a serious and well founded gripe with a company that, in one smooth move, tells me I'm no longer able to upgrade when they said I could and then recruits DEC's (which is after all the cheaper option) because of a self generated shortage. Whether the company, or you, will admit it, every DEC that turns up is pushing all the FO's commands further downstream.

I'm glad that for you the move has been a successful one, for me, and many others it hasn't. I chose to leave a job at home with a good salary and pension based on the premise that the company would honour the commitments it made when I was interviewed - it hasn't. As a result I've had a very lean couple of years here and very much regret the decision to come here.

I'm not often moved enough to bother posting but I do think you need to be aware of the implications of some company actions and also the very real offence you may cause if you continue to take the 'I'm alright jack' line.

[KunnDize]

Not much difference between the DEC concept and the Accelerated concept, Sanddancer.

FOs with thousands of hours on jets are still being leap-frogged over by guys who turned up later on. It's just that the accelerated program has been around longer and become part of the scenery. Why should the "Accelerateds" be any less dvisive, in theory?

Funny (not) how people tend to over-look that.

Is the FO qualified to undertake command training or not? After so many years elsewhere why should the extra 18 months make all the difference?

[LHR Rain]

EK Wife

Good for you and your husband. You must feel good that you got such a great job by taking mine.

[Fart Master]

EKWife

Have you really been a captain or FO, I doubt it.

Most of us probably do say what we print to peoples faces, bit of an assumption on your part there eh?


Quote "I'm sorry if I upset you but I still don't agree with saying things (some very twisted versions of the truth sometimes) anonymously on an open forum."

Fine, don't post then, by the way how do you know the truth has been twisted?


EK wife, in the nicest way, I would just drop it.

:ok:

[desert queen]

Kunn Dize this must be your worst nightmare another "mere" female daring to write on pprune. As someone stated on a previous thread when you were bragging about getting a hostie into trouble" you sound like such a moron" I couldn't agree more. What's the matter dear, have a problem with woman in general or has your wife left you and gone home and now you are blaming it on Dubai instead of taking a serious look at your own attitude.

When you make silly comments like you find it very amusing that one of the wives dare to mention "we" when discussing her husband and the Emirates, well it is a case of "we." We were part of the team that packed up and left family and friends and came out to the unknown with our husbands, we are part of the team that has to deal with our husbands coming home totally exhausted from flying his butt off, we are part of the team that has to keep the good humour going, when the hubby is totally deflated after getting a whopping 8% increase when the company is making a $#@%load of profit. We are part of the team that has to go out and get a part time job to keep our families head above water and still be available to take the kids to and from school, sports, parties etc etc, we are part of the team that has to try and keep the husbands morale up at times like this - so yes we wives do have a right to class ourselves as "we"

Why all the interest in the Emirates anyway? You are after all a "businessman?" so the wives have more right to comment on this thread than you.

[Shake]

DQ: I agree with you completely re the importance of family support without which life here would have been impossible for me at least.

To try and get back to the subject you also highlight some issues that any prospective employee should know:


We were part of the team that packed up and left family and friends and came out to the unknown with our husbands, we are part of the team that has to deal with our husbands coming home totally exhausted from flying his butt off, we are part of the team that has to keep the good humour going, when the hubby is totally deflated after getting a whopping 8% increase when the company is making a $#@%load of profit. We are part of the team that has to go out and get a part time job to keep our families head above water and still be available to take the kids to and from school, sports, parties etc etc, we are part of the team that has to try and keep the husbands morale up at times like this

It was points like these that ekwife seemed to be objecting to and inferred should be 'kept quiet' so that the rest of us would 'benefit' by proliferating the myth that EK is anything other than what it really is in order to attract people to join. I think that this is the most objectional aspect to the posts and points more to their particular motivation other than I hope many others.

[critical winge]

Girls, please! You are welcome here (the Pilots Ru Network), but we are starting to see you biting at crazy cr@p that only lowers the forum and as you can see we end up off the thread. Why not start a "we" thread and have a boys vs girls slagging match in there. No not a bad day but I come on the computer for a break (if you know what I mean)?

[desert queen]

Critical Winge - try not to sound so patronising please

[critical winge]

WELL WRITTEN AND SAID MENSA YOU THE BOY .:ok:

[KunnDize]

Yeah that's true, Trimotor, but the 3 year guy has missed 18 months of higher salary (which as we have seen here makes a big difference) and 18 months of command time in the logbook which for some is also pretty important if they want to move on one day, given that not everyone is as happy here as ekdecwife/ekdechusband.

18 months... who knows how many hours that is at 150 a month times X months for some of the time, plus X months times the normal limit the rest of the time, allowing for holidays, etc, etc.

Try not to disparage the motivations of the guys who are (almost) at the bottom of the food chain, the FOs without significant command time. Maybe it DOES stress them. But I'm glad things have worked out for you.

FOs who are promoted will also be senior to the DECs so maybe it isn't so bad after all, hey?

[KunnDize]

Yeah I know and I think most of the guys recognise that and do not aim their disgruntlement at the DECs, but at the policy-makers.

Unfortunately ekdecwife hasn't helped their cause, but who knows.... maybe she's posting illicitly without hubby's permission!!!

Careful ekdecwife, hubbys here have special means to instill discipline amongst their wives not normally allowed back home!

Rumours??? The last one I heard was another pay-rise. What gives, TM? Spill.....

[LHR Rain]

Trimotor,

You have good points. I am a two yr and 10 mth 330 FO who is looking at a very long time to command and not because of my viewpoints. Numerous FOs ahead of me are already delayed and some at this point have been here 3.6 years and still waiting. The FOs ahead of me need to be captain and the 65 or so DECs on the Airbus did in effect take those FOs and mine commands. I don't know who is to blame but the facts are that we are still FOs (through no fault of ours) and they are here as captains and all the benifits that go will it.
Trimotor I guess I do have a bigger problem with the rule changes regarding upgrade and transition upgrade than with the DEC themselves. I did apply to go to the 777 for various reasons not the least of which would be quicker command but was of course turned down only to see very marginal DECs hired to go ahead of me and others.
The bigger issue here is the la la land that the DECs and others live in. How can they possibly know how hard it is to get by in Dubai with the low salary and rising inflation then have the gull to tell me not to say anything bad about Ek and Dubai even if it is the truth?

[azdriver]

[QUOTE]I-FORD

As a future young pensioner, I'm looking at the ME as a potential area where to spend my last years as a pilot.
The fact that DECs are not welcomed by FOs in EK will not deter me as long as I'm welcomed by EK's management.
In the airline currently employing me the attitude shown by some of the posters in this thread, would prevent them to be upgraded captain.
And that is in a european airline where crews have all the rigths and union protection you can imagine.
I'm sure most of EK FOs are different from those posters, otherways the reason for EK looking for DECs instead of promoting from inside would be pretty obvious.


Hey man,

I hope you are kidding.

Visto che sei un CPT Az vedo che posso fare per farti cambiare idea.....


Cheers
AZDRIVER

[allaru]

It is fair to say that some people here at ek are happy, but the some are a very small minority, and ones perception of ek is very dependent upon personal circumstances. Ek housewife is probably quite happy given that, if as she says is true her husband joined as a DEC. Recall that when ek advertised for DECs there were few takers, thus they had to offer higher pay scales than existing captains. Thus a DEC is on a higher wage than existing captains, let alone FOs. Most DECs are older, most have kids that have left home and are no longer dependent, or at the very least are old enough to qualify for subsidised schooling (EK no longer pay for kids under 4), have houses that are payed for and so on.

By contrast take a new joining FO with a wife and one or two young kids, which is the demographic profile of the majority of new joiners, he will be lucky if he comes out even each month. If he has commitments back home he is likely to go backwards financially. These are not first timers, they are experienced FOs who have lots of heavy, long haul time, or have held commands on narrow body, and in some cases wide body types. ek NEEDs this experience but refuse to pay the going rate, which is about 50% more than whats on offer now. This is why we are seeing a high number of no shows on many courses of late. When people sit down and examine the package in detail they see it for the joke it is.

NO doubt many airlines have screwed there pilots big time over the past few years, partly because they needed to, but partly because they could. They have abused the recent economic circumstances and introduced non sustainable, and unrealistic degradation in pay, allowances, hotel conditions, schooling, accommodation, ext ext ext. However it has now caught up with them and as managers at EK bask in the glory of recent financial success, its now time to pay the piper.

[critical winge]

allaru, well said, another great post. The thread is turning into a real truth story about EK today and you and mesaboy speak the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Nice one.:ok:

[Shake]

EKs expansion has been ongoing for several years. If they were planning 100, then 150 and now over 200 aircraft where then were the plans to support it? Over the same period the training system lost trainers who resigned whilst others lost thier jobs due to 'surplus requirements'. How then was the expansion going to cope with the need for eventually 2000+ pilots if it was not geared for the recruitment and training of the numbers needed? Either the plan was always to resort to DECs (thus the job was misrepresented in recruitment and at interview) or the training system has been and continues to be completely mismanaged.

There is no doubt in my mind that the need for DECs could have been mitigated by much better long term management. Even now there is a chance to review the situation and construct a longer term plan to achieve the projected expansion before it falls disasterously off of the rails.

We need to: Recruit longer term F/Os with less experience who want to gain wide-body, long haul experience and review the current command criteria to maximise those who are capable of command from within. Reconsider transition courses to put pilots where they are needed and use the flex left to upgrade more F/Os. Then and only then consider DECs as a last resort to make up the short fall.

[mini cooper]

I seem to remember being told during training:

If you have a problem use all available resources to remedy the situation

Problem: Not enough pilots

Solution: Use the ones you've got for upgrade (who cares what type its on, these days one big jet is very much like another big jet!),this will lead to an increase of morale all round, people will think better of EK and more people will view it as a good prospect for a career and hence more people will apply.

How's that for logic - now I will watch as somebody tells me it is a useless idea!!

:D

PS to add some icing give everyone 10 days off a month minimum and give better allowances down route (rather than cutting allowances). Everyone will be more rested and I am sure that the cabin crew especially having extra days off will want to go to work to get the allowances, hence less sick days and less congestion at the clinic, and more crew wanting to go to work!!

:D

[Shake]

ekwife: It was the other stuff that caused such a reaction. You put the me into mercenary

[sluggums]

Mini cooper,

Absolutely correct, your suggestions are exactly what should done.:ok:

[Shake]

You still don't get it do you. EK are NOT recruiting your mates who could do with the job but advertising for 'experienced' crews with the promise (inferred and broken) of upgrades. When they do change the criteria your posts may become relevant. Until then the posts you criticise generally warn those who are seeking a career progression that EK has turned out for some a career regression, your hubby excluded ofcourse.

[Payscale]

LHR Rain

The guyes on the A330 upgrade course today, have been here 3 years and 4 months. How many pilots can there be between you and them? I think there will be 2 more upgrade courses this year. Better start studying ;)

[LHR Rain]

Lady when will you get it? You have absoultely no clue about the aviation industry. If you want qualified FOs with a real training background they are not going to come because of what you and your husband did here at EK. Why would any qualified and talented pilot come here and have to spin their wheels and in a sense go backwards on the seniority list while they watch marginal DECs come and take their seats? I don't know if your husband is qualifed or not but if he fits the DEC profile he never flew a widebody and never flew outside of Europe but your situation may differ. Every DEC I flew with meets the critera metioned above.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

How would you feel Ek Wife if your husband had the DEC requirement and had been here 2 years or so still an f/o after being promised a fasttrack .
After reporting the incompetence of some of these individuals it would appear my command is some 4-5 years from doj so i was told , and im not allowed to fly the 777, then somebody such as your husband comes here and gets an instant command while im rotting in the right seat , i have friends on the 777 who are fastracking in 18 months who started before me, why should i be happy?:mad:

[tic]

I sympathise with the F/O's at EK, but don't believe any of you should berate EKWIFE for her opinions. What would you do in the same circumstances, for her and her husband??? Say no, sorry I can't come in as a DEC, coz I might upset a few people? Lets get real. No-one in his right mind would do that, if you were offered it. You or I would do exactly the same thing. To me, hats off to them, they were lucky, and there at the right time, and I'm sure, not the only ones. Fact is, too many aeroplanes, and not enough pilots, and it's going to get worse, as the new aircraft arrive.You,( EK ),need Capt's, RIGHT NOW!!!!!!. Takes too long to train qualified F/O's. Management says, ' Recruit DEC's, ( it's cheaper), Done job. It's not right, we all know it, but as you ' keep discovering', the goal-posts move all the time. In all honesty, are any airlines , really that different?

My solution to all of you, who are constantly whingeing. Get together and go speak your mind. Enough people doing it can change things. You are a powerful body,provided you stick together. Too scared are you? I think so, hence Pprune, which is supposed to be a rumour network, instead we have a slanging match.
tic

[turtleneck]

with all these logical remedies for the pilot shortage and upgrade-problem, there's one question bragging me constantly:
allthough ek managers have no hr skills whatsoever, they cannot be total no brainers. now tell me why on earth don't they follow the apparently easy, quickly applicable, certainly successful and less costly on the long run advices published here??
i admit, i have no clue.
ttn

[330 Man]

LHR rain,
Sorry bud but I have to get into the mix after your last post.
Although true SOME of the DEC's fall into your profile listed in your last post, most do not.

Quote:
"I don't know if your husband is qualifed or not but if he fits the DEC profile he never flew a widebody and never flew outside of Europe but your situation may differ. Every DEC I flew with meets the critera metioned above."

I can tell you that of the 3 DEC's from my former company flying with EK on the 330/777, 2 have wide body time and are both former TRE's, one on the 330 and one on the 767, and each have over 20,000 hours. The one with no wide body time has over 16,000 hours and is a former TRE on the 320 and 737.

Where in your above profile do the former Cathay 340 Captains rate, or the former Senior TRE on the 340 from Swiss, or the former 330 Captains from Air Lingus, or the 747 Captains from the various cargo companies who are now here? I will grant you that some of the DEC's do not come close to meeting the experience level of some of our current F/O's, whose jobs they have taken. Those DEC's should not have been hired. PERIOD

But you can not make a blanket statement like yours regarding every DEC. It is not true, and not fair. You would have taken a DEC job with EK in a heart beat if you qualified. Do not expect any of us to believe otherwise.

As for EK wife, if she is like my wife who has been in this business with me for 20 years, she probably knows more than you think. To tell her she does not have a clue about this industry is rather crass on your part. I received a yellow card last month from 4HP, perhaps is your turn. You need to chill!

Regards,

330 Man

[heywood u bleume]

Mensaboy,

I presume your name is meant ironically. If you hire a DEC you have to hire an FO to complement him....correct. If you upgrade an FO to Captain you have to hire another FO to replace him.... and an FO to complement him as with the DEC. The accountants know their stuff sadly. I'm on your side but the numbers aren't.

HUB:rolleyes:

[LHR Rain]

330 Man

You might be right that some of the US Air pilots have flown widebody in their careers. However I believe that most if not all of the US Air DECs that came to EK at the time of joining were not on widebodies because of the redundancies. I even flew with a US Air guy that had never been outside of the US and never ever been on a widebody. Believe me when I tell you that he was very happy to be at EK. I told him to cool his jets.
I will have to stand correted on the CX and Aer Lingus guys. Yellow card for me.
Your wife might have some common sense but EK Wife has none with her comments. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion but so am I and she is in la la land and probably drunk to boot.

[jumbo1]

LHR RAIN

Your wife might have some common sense but EK Wife has none with her comments. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion but so am I and she is in la la land and probably drunk to boot.

Chap, I think this is a little offsides. I agree with almost all the posts being made about DEC's. Crazy idea! The only fault EKWIFE has is that she has not been at EK long enough to know how things work here. Give her 2 months......

Let's keep from the personal comments and keep to the whingeing, it's so much more fun

Keep discovering..................
J1

[mig21bis]

What involves in an F/O to Captain Upgrade in Emirates. You have to do an initial course or a shorter transition course????
How many days of ground and sim???

[ekwife]

It's a bit sad really that one can't post anything without it being ripped to pieces and twisted to suit!

First of all I was accused of being "selfish" by donpizmeov because he thought I was looking for a quick upgrade for my husband - doesn't that prove that my intentions were only to help the situation fo FOs looking to upgrade?

Then when I said my husband was a DEC - well - no need to say more!

The problem with posting on this forum is - if anyone posts anything positive they are in "la la land" and "still in the honeymoon period" (how long is the honeymoon period by the way?) have "third world mentalities", etc, etc and they get ripped to shreds in seconds.

This is the reason that the happy, contented people don't post - it's just not worth it!

I hope I have learned my lesson and when I read some of the tripe that gets posted here, I can be, like my husband, and laugh it off and not get involved again.

[Can't think of a name]

Trimotor is right: the majority usually are silent. I don't post often, but some stuff on this thread makes me feel like injecting a few words into the forum.

EKWIFE - Thank you for your input in this thread, it is not only healthy for people to hear a different perspective on a subject (whether one agrees with the view or not), but it is a necesary part of any balanced discussion.

MENSA & ALLURU (and some others whose names escape me) - Your posts have been relevant, eloquent, and objective. Well done! Not an easy thing to do with emotion running so rampant in a thread.

Almost every post on this thread has relevance and meaning to the subject, and most cetainly does to the person writing the post! The only request I would make is to those who are so quick to cut down the views of others.

If you feel that strongly about something it is your responsibility to do what you can as an individual to try and change it. Sitting here and saying "what's the point, it won't change anything" or "I can't; it'll have an adverse affect on my upgrade" are excuses...nothing more.

You don't have to go into the office with guns blazing and fists banging on any horizontal surface. Doing that (and people do!) achieves nothing, other than "changing nothing", and possibly having an "adverse affect on your upgrade".

Putting together a structured, well thought out, accurate case, and presenting it to AS personally is the ONLY way you can have an effect on policy. (Depending on the depth of your feeling and the size of your Kahunas, you may want to go higher, but I would do that only after you receive no response from AS.....i.e. respect the chain of command and give each person in it a chance to do their job before going over their heads)

Whether the policy you seek to change is rostering related, upgrade related, housing, education or anything else related, you MUST put forward a balanced case , with evidence, and without emotion.

I've said this before on a previous thread. I know one person doing it will make little or no difference, but 100, 200, or more pilots doing it WILL make a difference. And if it doesn't, you can look in the mirror and know that you did what you could. I guarantee you will feel better about yourself for the experience, and you might even find your views changing once you have to justify them with evidence and sound argument.

Remember, the way to win an argument/discussion is to change the other person's point of view to your own, or at least make them WANT to see your point of view. You can ONLY do that by understanding the other person's point of view to start with, and where it comes from.

I have my opinions about this subject, as does any pilot (and their families), but the reality of any expat job is that when the bag of s&^&t weighs more than the bag of gold, it is definitely time to revisit your reason for staying. No place is perfect: there will always be that bag of s&^&t to balance the bag of gold. I think the secret is to always, somehow, keep the scales tilted toward the bag of gold, and sometimes the quickest and easiest way to do that is to find a way to lighten the bag of s&^&t.

I'll just rush off now and put my kevlar t-shirt on before the replies roll in!

Cheers to all.......and remember...you woke up today...a lot of others didn't.

CTOAN

[Jack D]

In my humble opinion most of the DEC,s are excellent , well

experienced with very strong aviation backgrounds. I don,t

know where these narrow body guys are , they may be out there

but in the minority I would suggest. Actually at the risk of

sounding like a sycophant I think most of them are better than

the home grown variety, at least that,s what some of my

colleagues think and I agree. A question of background and

training I suppose. Not to say the "normal" guys are poor

they are not on the whole .

As for the policy of recruiting DEC,s that,s another matter but

one thing is for certain those F/O,s who think they have an equal

amount of experience as MOST of these DEC,s simply do not,

neither do Most of the EK captains , that,s a fact . I am

sorry we may have to wait a bit longer for our upgrades and hope

that we won,t but at least we can learn from some of these

guys if we want to listen.

[Mistah Kurtz]

Afraid you do sound like a sycophant, a very mixed bag

[Jack D]

Just separating fact from fiction , doesn,t mean I like the policy though.

Yours Sycophantically,

Jack

[mini cooper]

Jack D - next time you go flying how about asking some of the guys what their experience levels are both LHS and RHS, you may be surprised with what you find! Maybe you haven't flown with any really experienced FOs or less experienced Capts but here are a couple of things that come to mind:
1. I saw a DEC getting out of an a/c the other day with a FO who used to have a wide-widebody command, he has vast amounts of experience almost certainly equal to the DEC - he came here just as the rules changed and now cannot get back into the left hand seat until his 3 years are up.
2. I know of several other FOs who were trained by TRIs with less experience than they had. That is not necessarily a bad thing as the TRIs apparently (as I wasn't there) were very good at what they did, but they did not have a lot of experience to fall back on.
3. Would you class a Capt that has spent all his life flying around one area of the world in one type of aircraft doing one type of flying experienced? I wouldn't necessarily say so. Variety is the spice of life and builds experience?

Experience is a worth its weight in gold, at EK it is something I personally think that we lack in a number of areas.

We also have a vast ability range in both the LHS and RHS, so how about less of the sweeping statements please. Ta

PS use the experience in the company before resorting to DECs!!

[Payscale]

MiniCooper

Welll your friend lost his job back home, and was able to get one with EK. And in 3 fast years he will be back in the left seat again. No big deal. If he cant accept it, then the right thing to do is to resign.

One signs a contract, with the possibility of a command within a certain time, but the FOM clearly explains the principles.
I have flown with many ex commanders, actually almost all but the former cadets, and noone is whinning about it. Some are actually happy to get the oppotunity to see things from the RHS seat.

I only hope that EK will give transition upgrades when they run out of B777 FOs. That would be a bonus!

I would certainly call a pilot who has flown one type of aircraft in one type of environment for the last 20 years full of experience. Very few pilots get the chance to fly truly worldwide. Cant really name an airline that flies to Greenland and Australia...

[Quod Boy]

Jack D.

You are in denial.

Seek and ye will find.

I believe there are plenty of recruitment pilot vacancies,you sound ideal.

QB:= :*

[Cerberus]

Why are we getting into trying to compare experience? For what its worth, and coming from me, not much. It is a myth that getting more hours gains experience. Initially it is true that hours mean something but beyond about 2500 as an F/O and 1000 more as a commander, zip. I sat on my ass for 8 hours today going to the UK and just got 8hrs older, a little fatter but not more experienced.

If the company has run out of F/Os that meet their command criteria and want to expand; then they need DECs. For the DECs to be of any use and to have any worthwhile experience; They must be:

1. A commander
2. Qualified on type
3. Used to flying on worldwide ops.

A 15,000 hour 'Captain' is not twice as good as a 7,500 hour Captain, just a little older. The stats actually say they have a higher accident risk for what it is worth. I actually don't believe in hours, I believe in a meritocracy but then the whole aviation industry would collapse and we'd all be DECs rather than just legends in our own lunch times.

EK need to determine what competencies they require in their Captains and promote when they have achieved them; in order of seniority. The flaw is that this system would require honesty and humility. If they don't have enough to promote they will need to hire DECs; but they must have the experience above.

We have had the ludicrous situation of a 737 'Captain, Bill' of whom we have 3 days experience at the interview recruited to the 330 as a DEC. But a 737 'Captain, George', with marginally fewer 'hours', that has spent 2 years working for EK on the 330 is considered ineligible. One word bizarre!

Apparently one of our esteemed managers was qouted as saying 'But Bill is a Captain!' How do you deal with that mentality? Next we will be employing mates even if they fail the assessment.

If we want to move forward we have to assess true experience based upon what a pilot has accomplished during their career. Just counting hours doesn't work. If I took a different measure and said, say, landings, all wide body commanders would be helo pilots.

Cerberus:ok:

[Vorsicht]

Your argument lacks consistency.

You claim our TRI's and Emirates have little experience, yet on the other hand you claim that our F/O's have so much experience that they should be considered over DEC's.

Remember that experienced F/O's are not new at EK. We have always had them. Most of our current TRI's were previously extremely experienced F/O's. Most with command experience, many with significant training experience.

[Ghostflyer]

EKwife,

You are absolutely right, we should not slag off the airline without a clear idea of where our agenda leads. I think you quoted your husbands longevity as a measure of experience (you have deleted all you posts, so who knows!) You did say though 'The problem with posting on this forum is - if anyone posts anything positive they are in "la la land" and "still in the honeymoon period"'

I am still generally positive about EK but my confidence in DXB took a hit when my family's car was totalled on a roundabout. Not EK's fault but it removed my rose tinted specs. There is a 'honeymoon period', what happens is that when you first arrive you are massively positive. When I first got here all I could see were 'Mega-skyscrapers'. Now all I can see is the sand in between. It doesn't mean that I think EK is a bad job, I don't believe it is nor do I think all the wingeing on the site will change that. But....by coming to DXB you gain some things but give up home! Ask yourself whether you and hubs would have come to EK on an F/O's salary for 10 years and then maybe you might have a better insight into some of the other poster's complaints.

Ghost

[BYLAW]

Payscale

You`re a typical EK man, think FOM!
Nothwistanding that EK FOM is probably the worst aviation document ever written. Don`t even think this is `the law` and `the rules` and therefore we should obey and be noble. Look at the cabin crew FTL, they are not of this world. Look at `general flight rules`, that chapter is simply the biggest joke ever.

Unfortunetely it`s the people behind the FOM, and the management that show there incapability to run an airline/flight ops. Instead they keep themselves busy with partypolitics, which means elbows and how not to get fired. How long do you think Tcas will last?

The command criteria change whenever they like. They probably change soon , because the current ones don`t match future and current growth. They don`t have anything to do with what`s `logical` or `general aviation criteria`. So Cerberus, I think , is right by saying that current experience criteria, ie flying hours, are not the best method of hiring pilots.

As for keeping the enormous amount of experience of the F/O `s dormant, there`s either a plan (doubt it) or plain stupidity. It`s a matter of using your own in house experience and employees versus people from outside. Guess what`s the best ( and cheapest) option.

I don`t write much on this forum, because I got to think of my next medical. But Payscale please, and others with the same argument that `if you don`t like it you should resign`, think again, and OUTSIDE THE BOX, thanks. I hope you know what that means.

Oh, and Ekwife, management doesn`t read Pprune. That`s criticism and that`s considered very bad in the Victorian Age management style that looks at there employees as costs and not as assets.

Better stick you`re head in the sand below Red dune, see no evil,.......

Happy fighting cheers

[Crazycanuk]

The reason the DEC program is here has nothing to do with experience. The DEC's can do the job and so can most of the current EK FO's.

So why have a program that upsets most of our pilots?

One word. HEDGING

[ruserious]

How long do you think Tcas will last?
He will be invaluable to the company after the next major screw up, which if current practise is continued (FTL's etc.), won't be long.

SVPFO Sacrificially Valuable Person For Offloading

[Crazycanuk]

How much do you think Etihad will pay for a new Captain in 2007? 30,000...40,000...50,000 dhs per month. Who can tell, market forces will determine that. One thing is for sure, if a new Captain can demand the bigger salaries, about 400 FO's at Emirates will all of a sudden become "experienced" and Emirates will continue to get bums in the left seat for under 30,000 dhs. In the meantime management are going to continue hedging there bets and they will not allow that commodity in the right seat to dry up. Count on it.

Welcome to the Emirates Pilots Hedge Fund.

Keep Discovering.

[Payscale]

BYLAW

I do partially agree with you. Dont take me for one of those who spend their days off at the office, trying to nose their way in.

However, in a company like ours, where there is no communication between us and them, how do you suggest we think out of the box.

I dont know too much about the FOM, because someone cut it out of the budget, so I dont have a readable copy, but it is the legal document that dictates our operations. Good or bad, I vaguely remember the first page said something about Approved by UAE GCAA.

The fact is, we are expanding. We are not getting enough pilots. Some are leaving, but that is not alarmingly many. What are they going to do about it.

Remember what EZY did some years back :uhoh:

[critical winge]

With regard to sicko the psycho, if he wants to learn from DECs then he should read the Weekly safety reports "recently" and especially learn from the DEC (with new FO) and the Whoop Whoop PU,PU!


That said todays Words of Wisdom

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

My inferiority complex is not as good as yours.

If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
:(

[Jack D]

Whingey do you really waste your time matching the crews to

the safety reports why ? isn,t that a little amateur . The

event that you mentioned is in a well known area and has

occured before still not good though . Wouldn,t a structured

and relevant Route Ops course be a good idea ? strangely I

can only remember dangerous goods .

Eveyone is in this together and bickering is useless

I don,t care if someone is a DEC ,.a regular 3 yearer,

came from Duff Air or a major carrier they are all EK pilots

some better than others , that,s all . I am sorry for those who

missed out on the DEC policy if they joined before the

programme was in place , particularly as I am one of them,

but life goes on .


I liked your words of wisdom Here,s mine....

Remember it could happen to you !

Jack

[BDD]

EK Pilots:

Did I miss something here? I thought EK had stopped DEC's with the exception of the A-310. Can someone confirm this please.
This is no flame bait just trying to understand.

BDD

[BDD]

TM,

Thank's for the info. With all the A/C on order, will EK
be able to draw in the pilots they need? I think all the F/O's
that you have at this time should get the LHS within 2 years.
Just my opinion(if you have the time).

BDD

[Scooter Rassmussin]

You forget to allow for the retirement of about 46 330s and 777-200s before 2010..............

[helen-damnation]

.......... to be replaced by 60 A350 and who knows how many 772 LRs! :ok:

[maddog62]

FCI coming up with new transition upgrade policy......(maybe a little more solid than just a rumor...)

It'll be on a trial basis and only for "accelerated command" qualified F/Os.....:confused:

mad

[74world]

"Accelerated command"???? that's a quick way to make friends also.....Man I'm glad I'm not working for EK!

Same to hear that EK is an airline that does not respect their employees (seniority).
Well I guess this is to be expected, at the end of the day the "rules" can be change at anytime, since you have no rights.

Cheers..:cool:

[Bubair]

I am about to join ek and I still have big doubts.....
Can you explain better the accelerated command thing?
If I decide to join it would be only because of the quick command they advertise.
Will I be disappointed?

[Global Nomad]

Bubair,

It appears that there is no current policy on the Emirates web site regarding accelerated commands. The only way to find out would be to ask at the interview, if you've already pased that stage just send them an email and ask what the criteria is.

I'm a little perplexed about "the quick commands that Emirates advertise". As far as I know, Emirates may infer that command prospects are good (how long is a piece of string) but I can't recall any advertising as such.

My advice is that PPrune is not a place to ask if you will be dissapointed or not.

I just clicked....you are only 30 years old!!

I doubt very much that you will meet the accelerated command criteria, nothing wrong with a bit of ambition but I think you might be stretching things a bit compared to some of our F/O's experience levels.

BA might do you some good.

[Bubair]

Global Nomad,

Why do you think people are attracted by a company like Ek?
Do you think they would have the same number of applications if the wait to the upgrade to the left seat would be the same of the other "big" airlines?

I doubt it.
Your suggestion of asking them is appreciated but is way off to be considered efficient!
What do you think they would say ?
They are doing their best to attract people to join and they do it well.

[Global Nomad]

Awww come on SS, be nice.

You're quite correct in asking for anything contractual in writing.

However, if you read your contract before you signed it (and I'm sure you did being a diligent Navy chap), there is a clause that says they can change your terms when they like and notify you in writing. Caveat Emptor, so I cannot understand why people are so surprised when things change in the Middle East.

Having said that, most reasonable people (and I'm sure that you're one of them) are able to look at the big picture and take the rough with the smooth....thought the RN was good at that.:D


Bubair

Nail on the head on the commands, that's exactly why Emirates appears to have difficulty in recruiting quantity and quality at present. Try the email, I think you'd be surprised.

[Saltaire]

How can we further divide the pilot group? Create yet another policy to advantage some and not others.....this company has been built on the experience and commitment of it's FO's and now yet again, another division within the group to "accelerate" some. Every FO should be given a fair, equal and timely opportunity for a shot at an upgrade. Another shake of the head....

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Remember accelerating f/os is much better than bringing in DECs which creates a standstill.
The chances for all of a 3 year upgrade are enhanced by continually moving f/os , cancel the fast track and more decs will come in, watch the commands blow to 5-7 then ...
Also it seems many experienced F/os can get good command jobs outside now and i dont think EK can afford to lose the experience.
If you came expecting a 3 year command and you are already here im sure it will still happen but the pool of F/os must keep moving and even out of sequence will still benefit the majority.
:bored:

[gl69]

Might I suggest that is "new" FCI is only good for a small percentage of the Emirates FOs, the accelerated ones. For everyone else (me included) this might cause to delay our upgrades. Here is how I see it. Pilots that are senior to you on the seniority list and get the accelerated pass just make captain quicker and good for them. That won't effect a lot of the first offficers. Pilots that are junior to you on the seniority list but get the accelerated program now jump you and make captain before you and take up a coveted command slot. We, the ones that have to wait now are looking at a diminished command prospect because of someone junior to you taking a slot. We all know that are only a limited amount of command slots to go around so the sooner you make captain the better.
I do agree however that this new program is better than hiring DECs. However I don't see the reason to bring back the accelerated program when most FOs are waiting over three years for their commands on the airbus. I must admit that I don't know the story on the Boeing.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

The story is they are very short on 777 so moving airbus F/os to the 777 will still help out the airbus guys by freeing up more slots on the Airbus when the 346 and 380 come , i wouldnt worry 2 much just yet....
By the way where is the FCI as i havnt seen it yet ,and it is all speculation as far as i can see.
:ok:

[Led Zeppelin]

Maddog,

I don't know where you got the info that this FCI was coming out.

All I have heard is talk about the possibility of Airbus Captains transfering to the 777 which I guess would free up further vacancies for airbus F/O's to move to the LHS.

But in any case, I think F/O's are still getting commands on the airbus at the 3 - 3 1/2 year mark.

cheers

[LHR Rain]

How can we further divide the pilot group? Create yet another policy to advantage some and not others.....this company has been built on the experience and commitment of it's FO's and now yet again, another division within the group to "accelerate" some. Every FO should be given a fair, equal and timely opportunity for a shot at an upgrade. Another shake of the head....

That is well said Salt. It seems that EK management is the divide and conquer stlye of management.
I strongly disagree with Scotter, if you cancel the fast track it does not mean more DECs. There is plenty of FOs that are here and just short of 3 yrs that are qualified and deserving of the limited commands and should get one.
Also Scotter the fast track does benefit the majority. It harms the majority and benefits very few, the fast trackers. Plus the A-346 and A-380 are at least a year and a half away and if the fast trackers junior to us go the B-777 the majority of the senority list of the Airbus pilots will be delayed.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Rain it boils down to if the 3 years has to stick then accelerated is better than DEC thats for sure.
The fact that the accelerateds will be on the 777 will not affect the airbus guys it will help some.
There is quite a few F/Os on the Airbus with the DEC requirement do you think they should get bypassed by DECs off the street, that will disadvantage all.
They r so short on the 777 DECs will come no matter what, i agree they should go case by case after say 2 years but thats too hard isnt it.
The accelerated will also help retain pilots that otherwise are ready to walk.
Plenty of Captains are leaving in the next year so there will be jobs for all and the 3 years will stay on the Airbus or there abouts.
Why would you get pissed off if it took you 3 years and 3 months instead of 3 years.
:=

[Kaiser Soczay]

Just a simple question everyone. What kind of experience criteria qualifies an F/O for accelerated upgrade?

I have a little over 5000TT with 2500 hrs F/O on the 767. Were I to join EK in the near future would I be eligible for command within a few years??

Regards,

Kaiser Soczay!

[Oblaaspop]

Requirements as I understand them are:

8000hr TT including 2000hrs in command of Jet over 55,000kgs.

AT TIME OF JOINING!!!

I think the new policy (if infact it does exist??), is better than what was here a few weeks ago, but why not transition for guys that have been here for 3yrs and a day???

(BTW I do not quallify for fast track, I just think its a half step in the right direction!)

Cheers

[Schnowzer]

But isn't it crazy that you could have had:

7,999 hours and 2,500 in Command on type at the time of joining. After EK have looked at you for 2 years you'd have about 9800 and not be eligible for acceleration. But a guy with 8000 on joining, no command time on type could have his at 9350?!?

Logic smogic! The only way is to chuck away arbitrary numbers and look at ability and performance but it will never happen.

Schnowzer

[shawarma]

or how about 9000 hours but only 1500 command due to working for a major long haul airlines where commands take 5 to 10 years +.

or

9500 tt 7999 hours before EK 3000 command on european low cost, operating major airport, cat 3 for real but only 2 years at ek.

why 8000 hours of whatever experience BEFORE joining it means 2000 hours in a cessna is of more value than 1 hour in ek. AND PREVIOUS HOURS MAY BE ON THE TYPE YOU ARE TRANSITIONING UPGRADE TO.

ITS ALL SMOKE SO THAT "THE BOYS" CAN JUMP TO 380

[BlueEagle]

Last I heard was that candidates for the A380 had to have previous Airbus experience if they wanted their A380 training at Toulouse, as part of the initial sales package.

[Global Nomad]

If they have the seniority and "airbus" time, I can't see anything wrong with that policy. Should be done on seniority full stop if you ask me.

[ekpilot]

As should upgrades.... Right, GN?
With the transition upgrades, I am guessing the rule will be "Qualified for Fast Track and 3 years in the company". Let's wait and see, gents:ok:

[Global Nomad]

Promotion on seniority, couldn't agree more.

Just don't hold your breath on it ever changing to a strict seniority system though.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

What FCI.................:ok:

[Antman]

Check the draft copy of the new Ops Manual Part A
Paragraph 5.6.3.3

[Fart Master]

yep saw that, could be dumping on a lot of guys

[twieke]

The "new" FOM, the Ops manual part A, has the following on transition upgrades:

"Only pilots who have the minimum experience for accelerated command or direct entry command CAN be considered for a transition command course."

Kind regards,

Twieke

[Scooter Rassmussin]

If there is not enough F/os on the 777 with the 3 years , and the only other option is DECS, then isn't accelerating Airbus guys away from the Airbus an advantage for all.
Also the fact Airbus commands are running around 3 years anyway wheres the big problem at the moment.......:ok:

[gl69]

Not if those Airbus pilots are junior to you. What is wrong with upgrading pilots on a senority basis? After all we have a senority list.
This new policy might delay some Aibus pilots from making captain. Why disadvantage the majority of Emirates pilots for a few?
No Airbus pilot has made captain in three years in a long time. They all have been delayed albeit most have only been a couple of months.

[etops777]

Not exactly at 3 years mark on the Airbus!!

The entire group of Airbus FOs which joined at 11/01/03 was told at the earliest would be around late 2006, and that's not guaranteed.....It will be more like 4 years for Airbus.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

With 40 or so captains taking the wise option and going boeing , then thats at least 40 positions next year as well as replacing the guys leaving , and the fact that they are at least 20 Captains short.
Im still looking for a new job anyway, wish i could sell my seniority...............:sad:

[yardman]

ETOPS 777

I know an Airbus FO who joined in September 2002, who isn't accelerated, and he and his colleagues of the same seniority are in the upgrade programme as we speak. Therefore I'm not sure if your 4 year projection is actually valid as it seems to running about 3 yrs and 2 or 3 months at the moment.

Yardman

[BYMONEK]

Yardman

The 3 year figure may well have been a good 'yardstick' to use several years ago but just because it was valid then will not always apply for now. Just a few months between initial joining can make a difference of up to an extra year before upgrade for some guys. It's a case of getting the timing right and that is something we as Pilots often have little control over.

[EGGW]

New FCI out, check the portal :ok:

Looks like a Christmas prezzie from TCAS, not perfect, but better than we have at the moment!

Comments gents please

:ooh:

EGGW

[BDD]

I see that Parc Aviation is advertising for Direct Entry Captains at EK. Any comments?


BDD

[davidletterman]

No worrries, you will be senior to them once you upgrade....:yuk:

[far-rider]

"I see that Parc Aviation is advertising for Direct Entry Captains at EK. Any comments?"

Comments?, Yes, where did you get that info? Its not on their website.

EK dont hire contract pilots, full time. permanent only.

According to VP Fleet, a number of DEC's but lots of upgrades, including transition upgrades now.

[CptKavla]

Far-rider seasons greetings.

If you go to flight internationaljobs.com you will see Emirates have advertised for Direct Entry Captains on to the 777. It is dated December 26th. BDD might have confused the lower advertisement by PARC with the one for Emirates. The letter you are refering to is not a victory for the FOs because the transition upgrade is not straight on to the other fleet, rather you have to first do the type training (2-3 months) then six months on type as an FO and then another 2-3 months Command training, so that basicaly means that you will do 3 years on your fleet to qualify for command and then another year prior to you getting your command on the other fleet or if you qualify for an accelerated command unless you are on the correct type expanding at the time you will do 21 months in the company and then another year prior to getting your command so we are back to sqaure one. In the mean time since we need captains now we will hire DECs now prior to any of these policies taking effect but in the long term 5 to 7 years down the road it will not realy harm you because you will be a captain as well. If you ask me, this letter was put out to try to calm the storm the news of more DECs arriving now will cause to the FO pilot body. I would have much rather preferred an increase in salary of 30% rather than a great piece of paper worth nothing.......

[far-rider]

Capt Kavla Seasons Greetings to you

I am not defending Emirates policies on upgrades, DEC's, transition training or on how many olives they put in martinis for that matter, ONLY stating that they dont hire contract pilots.

It still looks likes more or less better news for all concerned.

BTW:ok: on the 30% pay raise, but I would still like to see a lot of upgrades happen here.

[BDD]

Far-rider;

You are correct - I made a mistake and confused a DEC ad I saw as being from Parc Aviation when it was actually from EK.

Sorry for any confusion.

BDD

[Quod Boy]

Far Rider you are wrong.

EK hired contract pilots for the 727,many of whom are v senior now,they also hired DECs back in late 80s,the current CPA being one.

Nothing new,except then it was 4 planes,unknown future.

QB

[easyprison]

Emirates are advertising in Flight for DEC's;

See the following link

http://www.flightinternational.com/Jobs/2005/12/26/1502257/Flight+Deck+Opportunities-+Captains+%e2%80%93+B777+.html

[Dissapointed]

Haven't they learned anything? :rolleyes:

[LHR Rain]

No they have not learned anything. This will just lower the morale of the pilots even further. What is EK management thinking? They need arses in seats and this is the quickest way to fill that need. What a pity!

[etops777]

My buddy just done his PPC and was told that EK will hire 87 DECs onto 777 in 2006.:yuk:

keep discovering

[white rat]

e7 - think your buddy was hearing wrong.

The number is something like 87 skippers for the 777. Taken from three sources, RHS-LHS within EK, Airbus skippers (about 40, I think) who want to go across and the remainder DECs.

Will still mean about 12-20 DECs. Agree with you :yuk:

Don't see how they will find them given the c*@p pay and the brutal flying. Not to mention the bad vibes from the JF episode.

About to take the phone off the hook so I can enjoy a wee drink or two. HNY and safe flying to all - wherever you are.

WR

[Keith Discovering]

Airbus guys to 777 idea has been abandoned I believe, so no 40 to go across. Only a few guys who were originally on 777 will go back. So, either more 777 RHS - LHS or more room for DEC's.

[Fubaar]

KD, have you seen that somewhere in writing? I got my personal letter from AS only two days ago which said transfers are going ahead.

[Payscale]

Its impossible that 40 commanders leave the Bus. The roster can barely be flown with the numbers we are today..

[LHR Rain]

It is funny how EK works. They announce this big policy change and say that no one will be delayed for their command because of the transfer policy.
They want to upgrade in order by normal commands, than accel, than transition, than last DECs. They don't want to do DECs but the cirumstances being what they are they might have to go the DEC route or so says the company. Funny now because they have not announced any of the three above commands paths but already have posted and announced interview dates for the DECs. So the company was real quick to go the last path but still have not done anything for the first three paths. Very interesting.
Any bets on how many DECs they will be hiring and how many current FOs will "get" the transition? My bet is that the DECs will out number the normal upgrades by 4 to 1. 100 to 25.
This is how EK treats its employees. Puts out a FCI to improve morale and stop FOs from leaving. But that FCI does nothing for the current pilots at EK and the deeper you look at it you realize it does nothing but "allow" DECs to come.

[gl69]

LL just told me that the only pilots eligible for transition upgrade will be those pilots that have 2000 hours PIC time. So that excludes the majority of Emirates pilots. Not only are most first officers not eligible for the transition but now we will have DECs and junior pilots on the senority list getting captain before you and taking the captain slots. This was not suppose to delay anyone from getting captain.

[GTP]

i thought that most EK f/o;s are hight time pilots with most have previous command time on jets?
Why not upgrade the f/o's ?????

[Vorsicht]

LHR Rain has got it right.

During my years here it has been fairly consistent that when facing these types of issues, the company puts out a few rumours then eventually an FCI that on the surface seems reasonable and placates a few of those that consider themselves disadvantaged. Shortly thereafter follows the subtle proviso's that weren't published, such as 2000 hrs command and the add in FLIGHT for DEC's.

A little bit of reading between the lines, combined with years of seeing this sort of crap be repeated, tells me that the management need more DEC's, but are concerned by the amount of ill will and resignations that currently exists, so they publish a smokescreen FCI in order to try and fool the F/O's into thinking they are being looked after.

I hope i'm wrong, for the sake of our F/O's, but we will know in a few months.

Having said that, i seriously doubt they are going to get the numbers they need (DEC's) without seriously upping the offer. There is a bit of choice out there at the moment.

But as we have already seen, they are quite prepared to pay DEC's more than they pay us. Another interesting year.

Keep Discovering.

[davidletterman]

That you are paranoid, does not mean they are not out to get you...

:yuk:

[411A]

<<<....tells me that the management need more DEC's, but are concerned by the amount of ill will and resignations that currently exists, so they publish a smokescreen FCI in order to try and fool the F/O's into thinking they are being looked after.>>>

A tried and true middle eastern management procedure.

<<<But as we have already seen, they are quite prepared to pay DEC's more than they pay us.>>>

This is generally always the case.
A shortage demands appropriate action, and the comensurate levels of pay, otherwise the situation goes downhill rapidly.
Besides, experienced new guys demand higher pay...always been thus, like it or not...and certainly many do not.:{

Clearly many uninformed joined EK in the first place, dispite their claimed professional qualifications, which no doubt many had....however, they lacked 'street smarts', middle eastern style.

Babes in the woods comes to mind.:eek:

[BlueEagle]

"They want to upgrade in order by normal commands, than accel, than transition, than last DECs. They don't want to do DECs but the circumstances being what they are they might have to go the DEC route or so says the company. Funny now because they have not announced any of the three above commands paths but already have posted and announced interview dates for the DECs. So the company was real quick to go the last path but still have not done anything for the first three paths. Very interesting"

Not very interesting at all LHR Rain. From the date that they place the advert for DECs until the date they get the first one on line will be several months whereas you and other hopefuls in the wings could get a 'phone call from your Manager to-morrow and have you in the SIM by the end of the week, you are captive and can, if required, be processed very quickly, the DECs, on the other hand, still have a very long way to go.

DECs in rapidly expanding airlines in both the Middle and Far East have been a fact of life for, to my knowledge, the last forty years, in other words before most of the qualified FOs in EK were born so I find it hard to believe that they didn't know how the Middle East works before they signed up and don't seem to be prepared for it.

davidletterman, the word scab is banned on PPRuNe, mainly because those that use it don't actually know what it means or they don't know when to properly apply it, (as would seem to be so in your case), there is no strike, there is no picket line.

[4HolerPoler]

Thanks BE, I'll pick up on that - letterman, you've maintained a good stance until your latest outburst & I realize that tensions are raised and opinions are inflamed but if anyone uses the "scab" word again it will be in their last post.

You must be a bundle of joy to fly with. Realize that your viewpoint & concerns will have no effect on the greater play of events & get on with your life. For you & your colleagues sake.

4HP

[LHR Rain]

You don't have to have a piket line to be the word that is banned from your site. And by the way, enlighten us on the proper use of the word that is banned. We are dying to know.

Just because management in the middle and far east have used these DEC tactics does not make it right or for that matter that FOs should roll over and accept said tactics. We are in a new century and not using mangement styles from the 1950s.

Just a little background info for all those lurkers. EK had 8 resignations in Dec, about 50 last year and probably are going to have over 100 this year. Like was metioned previously, in a rapidly expanding airline you don't want to have a significant portion of your pilot ranks leaving and by bringing in DECs that will only accelerate the pilots leaving. Mangement is not thinking this through at all.

Yes Mr Blue Eagle I am avilable for ugrade at anytime but I am not counting on a phone call anytime soon or that of any of my friends. In other words we all know the true intentions of EK mangement. Please enlighten us on the banned word!

[Zomp]

LHR,
last time you said you were a captain now you are a F/O again????
what are you smoking?

Here is the link to your posting when you were a captain, good luck with your meeting with the company psychologist!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199162&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

[LHR Rain]

I am in the process of upgrading but thanks for noticing. What are you smoking that makes you think that this is such a good job or that EK policies are good?

[Zomp]

LHR, now you are in the process of upgrading! you are so cude!

[davidletterman]

Ha ha ha ha... 4HP, you made me laugh...but really, I am a bundle of joy to fly with!! I had no idea the word was forbidden, so it has been replaced.

your patronizing advise is well received, I will now go and get on with my life, what a relief...

[happyB777]

Hi Guys,

I joined EK as a DEC about 2,5 years ago. FRom my experience I can tell you that 99% of the FO`S I was flying with are great guys to fly with, very polite, respectfull and most of them ready for upgrades.

Everybody from all over the world ( BLACK AND WHITE) IS VERY WELCOME TO JOIN EMIRATES THIS INCLUDES DEC`S and FO`S.

Nobody was forced to leave their previous jobs to join EK and nobody was forced to sign the contract.

Only one guy( It could be LHR Rain ) was not mature enough to handle the situation. A guy with bad attitude and bad performance.

In my opinion he will never make it.

So I am very happy here and I enjoy flying.


Happy new year to everybody

[ratpoison]

Mmmm, 2.5 years eh. That's still the honeymoon period.:eek:

[BlueEagle]

LHR Rain, you are not in a new country, you are in a very old one. So you want the locals to abandon their habits of a life time and conform to the views you see as the most convenient to your current situation. Best of luck, people have been trying to change the ways of the locals in the ME for years, look around you, has anything changed? You should have gone to the ME with your eyes wide open, there was so much history to consider, not to mention that nothing has changed in the last fifty years. DECs, like the Pyramids, have been around for a long time, are very obvious and we can reasonably expect to see them around for a long time yet.

"scab
n.

A worker who refuses to join a labor union
A union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended
A worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike strike breaker
One who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law 1996. Merriam-Webster's, Incorporated. Published under license with Merriam-Webster, Incorporated "

The forbidden word does not apply to DECs at EK and here I request the indulgence of Mod 4PolerHoler in order that I can point out that once again you are wrong.

If, as you say, you are on your command course then why don't you just settle down and enjoy it? You really don't need any more hassle, especially once you are a line checked captain. Learn to accept the inevitable, enjoy your work, enjoy your leisure and live a lot longer as a result.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[gl69]

I can tell you B777 without a shadow of a doubt that 99% of the FOs are not happy that the DECs came in! I don't know what the percentages are but it is no where near 99%. You are right that the vast majority of FOs are vey professional and don't let their opinions get in the way of a safe flight.
I can see why you are very happy at Emirates. You are on the 10yr pay scale and making a lot more money than most of the captains already here and never had to live on the FOs salary. Keep Discovering!

[LHR Rain]

Thanks for pointing out the definition of the banned word. As was said earlier just because they don't cross a picket line does not make than pure.
Also thanks for going and telling the moderator about people using naughty words. It reminds me of when I was in primary school and the little teachers pet was always tattling on what the kids in school were doing. The teachers pet always got beat up as a result. So you must have gotton beaten up a lot when you were younger!
I am willing to accept that I am in a foreign country. They however are always comparing themselves to the outside world which is only natural and so am I.

[Jack D]

Bring on the DEC,s I say if they can find a few more of those oldies 50+ who

really know there way around an Aircraft and how to manage a crew . These

guys are an asset to EK and are worth every Dirham.

Properly trained from old school Airlines and unassuming , just what we need.

Rainboy you should observe and learn.

[Saltaire]

Problem is most of the "old school" airline guys are already gainfully employed. Now you have a mish mash of not so sure. Morale is sacrificed for lack of foresight.

[ratpoison]

To quote BlueEagle

"scab"

"One who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms"


Well well well, sounds as though the ol dictionary got the definition from EK employees.:uhoh:

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Its amazing that the majority of captains are trying to leave EK at the moment. There cannot be many guys who would want to come here if they are already a captain somewhere else , just to pick up a paycheck the same as a Cathay Pacific S/O................

The standard of the last lot in some cases was appaling and could get worse , no sane person with a good job would come here.

Thats why the f/os are pissed off especially the ones who were 777 or a330 captains before EK and they r still in the right seat.........

Personally i cant wait to get out of this mess , just waiting on results, good luck to those desperate enough to come here............

[411A]

<<......especially the ones who were 777 or a330 captains before EK and they r still in the right seat.>>

Presuming this is a (more or less) accurate statement, it surely must bring into question the ability of many of these same folks to ever command anything, let alone a large airliner.:{

Silly boys.

[bushbolox]

Having read throught this and many other Ek threads i would like to add a little.
Those guys that gave up their commands to got to EK took a risk which they evaluated. They sound like they are getting double crossed on what they were told.However if what they were told was not in writing then they were a little nieve to sign a contract and up sticks and move on the word of a stranger.You have my sympathy on the former , not the latter.

DEC are a fact of life in 90 percent of the industry. They come and go in my compay every year sometimes at the cost of a loyal f/o. Sometimes this is unfair , and sometimes the f/o is the only one who thinks he is ready. To not appreciate this fact adds to the possible nievety mentioned above.

As for the opinions that a dec can not operate as well as the f/os being shafted. Utter arrogance. The only reason they are i the right or left seat is career management and luck. I have never flown a 777. I do however have no problem operating my 738 all over the world under all types of conditions. I have a well respected authority licence, (not always the case with some icao recruits in ek).The alleged qualification that some guys espouse on here that allegedly leads them to babysit DEC is an aquired skill from route training/exposure, easily aquired by qualified pilots, not rocket science. (see next paragrph)

Some tossers may have slipped thru the net , that is an issue for your trianers, but I meet the entry requirements and if sucessful will apply the same professional attitude as I try to now. The only difference will be the bigger equipment and new sops.Going to tfs on t16 is domestic, going to newyork in an etops 738 is long haul, but its the same oceanic flight.Just longer. Landing at zth on a stormy dark autumn nighttired and stressed on a wet runway is shorthaul, doing the same sort of thing at nairobi is longhaul but the skills are the same.The eight or more hrs getting there are not hard to learn.Its the same job the differences are what line traing are for, and professional colleagues.
I was offered an f/o positon 2.5 years ago at Ek but made a difficult decision not to join. It seems that in this case it was cynicism on a good day and a bit of luck.

To summarise, its EK that have shafted the f/os not the DECs . Would you not apply in the same position?( save me the solidarity b.s.). If you get command at EK on say the bus. Would you join a new airline as an f'o if they offered you the left seat of a 380 in 5 years time.

I have been an expat for years . clearly some guys that joined ek looking for a quick upgrade werent, or had other motivation to take such a risk by giving up a left seat to come under the control of someone whos proirity is to keep his kids in private school in uk and his his missus at the club.

Not my fault mate.

[happyB777]

You Are Absolutely Right.

Very Good Post.

[LHR Rain]

There cannot be many guys who would want to come here if they are already a captain somewhere else , just to pick up a paycheck the same as a Cathay Pacific S/O................

Well said scooter!

So B777 what is your story? You must have been a hellava pilot with a hellava great company to think that this is Nirvana. But as was said before you are on 10 yr pay and bypassed all of the FOs, even the deserving ones. But that is right you worked at some fly by night operation and you think that most if not all the FOs are undeserving at EK. I got mine pull up the rope. This is industry would be so much better if we did not have so many self serving pilots.
Save me the BS about I would do the same thing if offered. If no DECs came in and cut off the FOs maybe some more current FOs would have the opportunity to do what you did.

[bushbolox]

As i cant edit my previous post for some reason, i would like to add.
If an ek pilot came to my company and was was given a command, i would not assume he would be incompetant because he is from another operating area. I would make sure that he added the particular idiosyncracies of our operation to his database , was informed of all the gotchas, and given an objective professional line training programme. I have been to over 150 different destinations with my current employer and would not be so arrogant to assume that a new hire should know all the details on his first season. Just because you are doing it now doesnt mean we cant. all operational enviroments are different, not better or worse than the other. Twin otter into 300 metres is fokker into 1000 metres is 737 into 1500 metres is 777 into 2500 metres.The addition of 5 cabin crew shouldnt alter the skills of a good pilot manger. Varying standards and proceedures across the world shouldnt pahse a good crew with the right brief available and good line training.Its all relative . Its the calibre of the individuals that counts. Those highly qualified high calibre guys that are being shafted have my sympathy but not the chippy whingers on here. unhappy with thier lot due to poor career gambles or decisions, or as is the case with many, trying to manipulate a short cut to a 777 or 340 that didnt work out.
Before I'm flamed I'm very familiar with Dubai, and would like to keep the issue down to the ones in the title of the thread.

So Lhr rain , obviously the answer is yes to doing the same thing if you had the chance then. Its just that you (or your colleagues) dont have the chance, that makes you a hippocrite. If you are a blocked fo at ek, i'm sorry but i dont know you and am not responsible for you decisions, or contract .

[new tomcat]

I want to thank everybody that replied to my many questions and PM me. It is all good information and thanks for taking the trouble to answer.

I think that I am going to wait and see how it goes at my company. We just went into bankruptcy and that is always bad but at the very least we have a couple of years before the you know what really hits the fan. I still believe this is a basic exercise to bust the union and get what UAL and US Air did to their pilots.

I would have a hard time justifying jumping the many qualified FOs currently at Emirates. I was a recipient of a senority system that allowed me to get my experience and it would be wrong of me to usurp that senority list now. As I said in an earlier post the USA does not allow DECs because of the emotion of the topic.

I still have a good job. It is not the job I signed up for but I still make good money. If I had to put food on the table that would be another matter but since I have a good job that pays very well (especially compared to the world's airlines) I would just be taking a qualified FOs captaincy and I would probably have a hard time sleeping at night.

I can't believe 90% of the world allows direct entry captains. Certainly there must only be only a handful of Emirates first officers that can't upgrade. From what I have read I know that to be the case. To the many qualified pilots at Emirates in both seats I wish you well. It sounds like the mangement there does not see the forest because of the trees and probably hates pilots to boot. Too bad someone or something has to actually fly the planes.

Good luck to us all!

[Desert Whine]

DEC are a fact of life in 90 percent of the industryThey are?

Like BA, Qantas, UA, KLM, Lufthansa, Olympic, Conty, ANZ, Air France, Air Canada, Egyptair, SAA, etc, etc, etc... 90%??? Bolox.

You've just proved that "90% of statistics are made up ion the spot."I have been an expat for years Does this equate to avition "whore"? If so, it may explain your philosphical view on DECs. It translates into something very close to,

"I'm alright, Jack."

[Desert Whine]

On the assumption you're not jerkin our chains, then I salute your integrity, honesty and sensibility.

Ignore the 90% business. It is just some tripe trotted out by people with different morals to yours.

I recognise what you say about food on the table.

[happyB777]

This is a worldwide circulation LHR Rain. If not me than another DEC`s would take the job. One of our FO`s recently resigned, he is going to a Low Cost Airline in Europe as a DEC. So is he a bad guy?

This was an upper mngmt decision and everybody has to live with it.

In my previous company we got DEC`s as well and I had to fly with them. I wasnt happy about DEC`s in the beginning but later it was a great experience. It is just a matter of maturity.

[millerscourt]

new tomcat

In 90% of the world when an airline goes into bankruptcy then you lose your job immediately. I would suggest that would change your attitude somewhat.

For your information DEC's have been a regular happening for years at Airlines such as Singapore, Saudia, Korean ,Asiana, China Airlines,Gulf Air , Qatar,Eva Air and even Emirates. Some such as GF and EK only open the doors according to their needs, hence now certain F/O's in EK rightfully feeling aggrieved , not that that should deter anyone who thinks they want to work for EK. In aviation you have to fight your own battles once you become an ex-pat as you are on your own with no back up on the employment front.

PS Happy New Year White Knight

[LHR Rain]

So maybe B777 when I get to your maturity I will have your view point. Having said that what "fabulous" airline did you come from that makes EK look like Nirvana to you?
So does the LCC in Europe not have upgradable FOs? Every FO here at EK is upgradable and very qualified and you know it. It is mangement that chooses to hire superior airman like yourself to save on training costs and screw the current FOs. You knew it before you took this job and still you justify it because you betterd yourself and not to many pilots will blame you on that one.
Just keep in mind as I said above we are not from Singapore, Saudia, Korean, Malyasian etc, etc. We are very qualifed and from the first world and we don't need anyone jumping us on the senority list. You are right it is a fact that you are here and we have to live with it but we don't have to like it. The vast majority of FOs here don't like the policy. It is just that we are so professional that you have not come across it in the cockpit, CBC or anywhere else.

[bushbolox]

It seems that you have quoted the 5 percent of airlines that are flag carriers and have a structure sometimes heavily subsidised and in many cases just uneconomic protectionism. Ba have hired dec in the past, go figure.Following that logic are you taking a job from the local mrats by filling an f/o spot. Do you think they are happy about all the infidels stealing their thunder. Certainly werent in Africa .I will concede that my figures were arbitrary but the industry as a whole still supports my theory.
Im not a flying whore old chap but have been exposed to the expat world for years and as a result was cautious. It seems i had a bit of luck if you represent the general disgruntled elements as i would be pissed off like you. Like i said I am aware of the good guys that got shafted, but if you can see thru your red mist and have a genuine wide experience of the industry you will see that although not the best option it is a way of life. Picture this, ba have a strike, your british ,meet their changed requirements.People get laid off you get a job offer as a skipper in the revamped ba.Assuming you want to get back to uk , would you ask the people below you or the people that left if they were happy and would that affect your decision? I think not. It boils down to one thing. You're getting shafted , thats a shame, but dubai is not the flat earth, you are starting to believe the self perpetuating usual expat mentality that only you can do it. Wrong on all social and skill levels. and bad for your blood pressure.

[etops777]

new tomcat

In 90% of the world when an airline goes into bankruptcy then you lose your job immediately. I would suggest that would change your attitude somewhat.

For your information DEC's have been a regular happening for years at Airlines such as Singapore, Saudia, Korean ,Asiana, China Airlines,Gulf Air , Qatar,Eva Air and even Emirates. Some such as GF and EK only open the doors according to their needs, hence now certain F/O's in EK rightfully feeling aggrieved , not that that should deter anyone who thinks they want to work for EK. In aviation you have to fight your own battles once you become an ex-pat as you are on your own with no back up on the employment front.

PS Happy New Year White Knight

EVA have stopped hiring DECs since 1999. They have enough qualified FOs waiting for their upgrade.

[Desert Whine]

Only 5% of carriers... another truly bogus and awesome stat! Even if it is accurate, these carriers are all huge and represent a sizeavle proportion of the job market out there, which was the point.

In the BA scenario you paint, the end-result would seem to be best described by the 4-letter word we're not allowed to mention here. Seems it DID happen recently, in the late 80s you may recall. If that's your background - one of those who left - you are remarkably mellow for the experience!!

Yes we all have to look out for number one but there is a time and a place for it and I gather many hands think EK was not the place. With the advent of DECs (and the assistance of the "accelerated" program) the drivers at EK are encouraged to think of themselves at the expense of others.

And as someone else alluded to, EK is not hiring DECs or leap-frogging the 18month guys ahead because the locals are crashing all the aircraft, as in certain other airlines.

[Quod Boy]

:cool: I did recruitment for 5 years,the standard was fixed.DECs were proposed,it was UNIVERSALLY advised against at the time by the recruitment team.
that advice was ignored,we were told DECs were "temporary" 2.5 yrs ago.thats clearly not true.

The standard dropped.

50 pilots left EK in 2005,

Nothings changed,the facts are there,

EK was a great airline,its now a job.

DEC policy was a lie,it has been a disasterous move but no one will admit,good luck to those who play the system,you are not wrong the system has let your colleagues down and EK will suffer as a result.

Being a DEC that will not affect you,so good luck for what you have got.

QB

HNY,QB

[tic]

I saw the actual letter. From what I read, nothing has changed, except that your time in EK can now be counted, as opposed to having had the time, before you joined EK. I don't fly for EK, but I do have the time to do the DEC thing. Like others, I do not want to jeorpordise a current qualified F/O, in EK, getting the job,but the letter says, that with the large amount of new aircraft arriving in the near future, that DEC's will be employed. Not fair, I know, but, should I be put off applying? No guarantees of course, but if I get through all of it, why should I not take the job??? If you were in my position, wouldn't you?? Don't worry, have not applied,,,, yet!! At this stage don't have to. Hpoefully, it can all be done in-house. Doesn't look like it though, and although it doesn't affect EK Capt's, I can fully understand the F/O's concernes, even tho the letter says it will not affect current F/O's up-grades. Come on, pull the other one!!!

[Quod Boy]

:cool: Apply,if you get get the job(you will,EK are VERY short),come and good for you.

Just be aware of what you are joining and the extent of mistrust and disappointment felt by many guys(RHS) who joined under different terms and times.

The company has either ignored that fact or refused to see it,but to many who came here to see in many cases,(but not all) a very varied standard of DEC jump them is a hard act to accept,and morale is affected.I am not affected but I fly with many who are seriously disillusioned with EK and the way things are run.

Good luck to you for getting accepted,but be aware of what you join.EK need you,but have been less than honourable to many in doing so,dont be so arrogant to assume you are special or better coming from a 320 or 737,you happen to be right place right time,and thats life in this business.

Good luck.QB:cool:

QB

[tic]

Quod Boy
I'm not trying to rattle you, nor do I think taking DEC's is a good thing, especially, when good people like you, feel threatened, by an out-sider Capt, possibly affecting your command. No way in the world, would I do that deliberately.The letter says different, and your manual stipulates the requirements for a DEC anyway. ( 10000 hrs etc).The letter also says, that it will not affect you, and your up-grade, when it happens. The fact that it is in writing, is perhaps something you and perhaps many others like you, feeling threatened, may be able to use to your advantage, if the need arises. I'm not your enemy. Believe it or not, I've been in the same situation. Funnily enough, I was also an F/O. Right now, I'm quite happy where I am, but if it suits me, and I do have the hours, and more, then I will apply. Don't tell me, you wouldn't do the same in my position. The only difference, between you and me, is that I have the time, I am almost certainly a lot older than you, with 16 yrs heavy jet command time.(47). You know what?. who cares?. I was lucky in the beginning, I was there at the right time. Thats life. You and I'm sure others like you feel very strongly about the whole thing, but please chap, I'm only doing what you are doing. I just happen to be further down the road.
Wish you all the best, I'm sure you deserve it.
tic

[Desert Whine]

although it doesn't affect EK Capt's, I can fully understand the F/O's concernesIt's not a huge direct impact but the pay differential between a junior capt and a DEC definitely has an effect on morale.

[flybystring]

I was not going to post anymore as Im in the last few weeks of my notice period and very much looking forward to my exit from EK.

Most DECs will be treated well and fairly by FOs here, there have been a few guys who have decided to ram it down the throats of guys who have been shafted by EK, why they are so fantastic. Please remember you are in EK because of Flight Ops Arabic face saving policy and for no other reason.

A guy posted a good post about EK realities some time ago and I have taken the opportunity to copy and paste it here. DEC's are one fact of life at EK, please bear in mind though as many Captains have left EK as are about to probably join EK this year. They have done so for a reason and its not DEC's as they have a command already. think very carefully as a great many of these guys came here happily married men and have left here single and regretting ever seeing that gleaming airbus or 777, and wish they only had a family back which for most its already to late.

Anyway if many of you have read the letter to the FO's and no realise what a contrived piece of **** it is, bear in mind once your here the lying will start with you. As will the threats if you wont go into discretion, the threats if you wont operate a flight illegally outside the FTL's or the threats if you wont work every one of your non legal days of. Then you can look forward to your pilot villa 30 KM out in the desert.

Regardless of your hours ask why exiting CPs are looking to get out of here in droves and think on it carefully.

PS that guys post about EK I think he was called warofthewords seems to have gone.If anybody has it please post it.

[EZGOEK330FO]

Emirates has the Right and the Ability to do what they like with their policies for Command Upgrades, DECs etc. They can hire pilots, monkeys, camel drivers what ever the like to fly their planes. I am not against any policy, and I am not against DECs, as long as it is clearly stated when I am recruited for a job. If I am presented with the truth and the facts, and I join, it is my fault that I did not look at things more carefully. I and most of us coming for interviews did not and could not believe that an airline that spends billions of US$ for equipment, for football stadiums, football teams, etc, an airline that is visible in every corner of the earth, would be lying to us for the very basic and fundamental issues of employment. I believed that when they told me that they are responsible and accountable to their people they meant it, and that it was not just a nice recruitment line. If Emirates had told me at the interview that they would hire pilots for their LHS and RHS as needed I would not have come. If Emirates had told me that they are basically a contract job, with a long term duration I would not have joined. If Emirates had told me that they will change my contract as and when they decided without my consultation I would not have come. I and most of my colleagues joining around the same time had jobs, had seniority numbers, had careers had various other options and left all that to join a "FLAG airline, the cream of the crop, the best of the best" for a long term career. I saw an opportunity to be part of something great as it was advertised to be such. I assure you I was not unemployed living on a tree without licences, and Emirates has given me nothing in return for my valuable services of transporting people safely efficiently and economiclly 90 hours a month. I have a JAR licence and did not need a nother mickey mouse licence. I had a command and was not in surch of a command. I came to be part of something great and not just another job. I agree it is my mistake to believe what Emirates told me in the interview, and not to ask for it in writing. It is not my mistake for believing a reputable Company when it said something during the recruitment and interview. It is not my mistake for being an honest trustworthy person seeing the good side in everything. We were recruited becase not only are we professionally at a good standard, but because we are good people, willing to follow and listen, willing to give and share our expertise, we are flexible, caring, and tolerable, because we have character, values, and we know what it is right and what is wrong. If you think Emirates is a career job, then it does not measure up to the BAs Virgins, Lufthansas, etc. There is no seniority, there are no real policies in place able or willining to reward loyalty, hard work, commitment. Those who were interviewed where put through all the hoops to make sure they were hiring high calibre people not just pilots, but people, with honour, character and commitment. I realize now that Emirates is not what I thought it was, and I am leaving not to prove a point, not to spite them, but because there are other contract jobs that reward my expertise and my licences at a rate which I believe is fair. I do not have to change Emirates, I do not have to change the system, nor do I have to prove to them that they are making a mistake in not promoting their experienced FOs. I can get now elsewhere what I diserve and not have to wait like a begger for charity. I believe that if you come to Emirates and see it for what it is you will have a good time. People are leaving from Emirates because they find better opportunities for them and people come to Emirates because it is a better opportunity for them. I believe that now people are more informed about what Emirates is and they will not be dissapointed as alot of us are.:cool:

[Backwater]

What an excellent post EKFO. All the best wherever you are going.
More will follow I'm sure. 50 in 2005? It will be more for sure in 2006 as like a snowball the momentum is just starting. The really damaging changes occurred in the last two years, allowing reduced recruiting to the point where the average line-pilot roster (airbus at least) now has 95+ hours. The decision to leave (like the decision to come here) is not taken lightly, obviously as in many cases involves uprooting family for what is always a gamble. But as the months have passed with no improvement to the working conditions, guys will have looked through red jet-lagged eyes at their families and made a vow to leave as soon as the chance comes by. So over the following months we scan the adverts looking for the break. What is sure, EK is now seen as a stepping stone to another job, not what it once was, a career.
To reverse this inevitable process requires the following:
1. Replacement of our esteemed EVPFO&E. He is damaging our airline through micromanagement.
2. Reinstatement of credit for leave and ppc sim duties.
3. Pay structure that reflects an airline with global aspirations to be the world's best.
4. A return to the old standards of recruiting (assisted by item 3).
5. Reevaluation of upgrade requirements. Bin the 3 yr rule and upgrade on proven ability. Bin the DECs. They can join as F/Os and upgrade according to proven ability.
6. Acceptance by management that EK is an expat airline. Despite the hype we all know that Dubai is no paradise and few would be here if not for the requirement to feed our families or gain those extra wb hours for that lucrative contract coming up. Therefore we need incentive to stay, not reasons to leave.
7. Feel free to add...

For those guys out there with the rose-tinted raybans on, this is not a whinge but rather a pragmatic assessment of what is a needlessly sad situation.
HNY and keep recovering.

[ratpoison]

8. And have Bloody bases.

[BlueEagle]

Ratpoison, I don't think you will find that bases is the answer. It will destroy morale even further as rostering is done first for the bases, second for training, third for the 'chosen few' and finally for the ones that have fully embraced the expat. lifestyle, moved to DBX and now get the grubby little scraps that are left on the roster. It happened in SIA, (They are in the process of reducing, if not phasing out o'seas basing), where morale fell sharply when it was introduced and it would, I'm sure, happen in EK too.
Basing may help a few but generally it stuffs life up for far more people than it helps.

A good post EKGOEK330FO but I am still wondering how people gave up good jobs to come to the Middle East without knowing a lot more about how the place operates for real.

[gl69]

What a great decision for you. Everyone agrees if you are out of a job that is a different matter. Having been through two bankruptcies myself I know it can be a challeging evironment for you. Hang tough and don't read the newpapers. Believe me when I tell you that you are far better off there than here. The money goes so much further there even if you are taxed. By the way are you NWA or DAL?
Millers court is just another jealous pilot that wishes he was working in the USA where first officers still make more than Emirates captains.

[yardman]

GL69,

I can assure you that an extremely small minority of FOs in the USA make more than EK captains. And regarding the Ts & Cs of pilots in the US, standby as worse is surely yet to come.

Yardman

[yardman]

New Tomcat

I have you figured for an NWA skipper. Your decision is sound, and most importantly, principled. While I believe that the advent of DECs won't be the end of the world for the FOs at EK, not having them will perhaps prod management to review some of the policies that Fos find a little frustrating, to put it politely. Thanks again for your decision and I wish you and your colleagues all the best in these unsettled times in the US of A.

Respectfully,

Yardman

[gl69]

Yardman you might be right about the percentage of FOs making good coin but I think you are wrong about the worse it still to come. I believe that the US market has turned the corner or bottomed out as evidence by some US airlines making money and harldy any US airlines that have furloughed in recent months.
US mangement has had to deal with record oil prices (who hasn't), a glut of airlines seats driving down yields and a US administration doing everything in its power to screw the US carriers. If the US had John Howard (AUS) instead of George W protecting its base the US airlines would be far better off than they are today.
Isn't is sad that still some FOs make more money than catpains when the US market has been in the toliet for the last few years and Emirates is making record profits? That is why you will see very few US pilots (DECs or FOs) come over here to Emirates. Just my opinion.

[yardman]

gl69

You may have a point. However, if you doubt what i'm saying is true, just look at Delta, and for that matter, Northwest. Delta's management wants to squeeze another 19% out of them, and that's after the 30% they've already given. NWA wants more from their pilots, and Independence Air just liquidated. APA, the union for American Airlines pilots, for some strange reason is in a head long rush to give the company additional consessions that they haven't even requested yet. Probably in the vain hope to try and preserve their pensions, which, in my opinion, they will lose anyway.

I realise that this isn't the North American Forum, but I mention all of this only to point out that the grass isn't always as green as you think. Yes, things here could definitely be better in several areas. Yes EK is making record profits and it would be nice if more of that filtered down to our level. But I suspect that the management here is trying to avoid exactly what happened to the US carriers and their pilots. I mean, the salaries did become unrealistic and unsustainable. I for one am a bit more comfortable just knowing that we'll probably avoid the perpetual boom and bust cycles that have characterised US aviation for the past 30 or so years since deregulation.

Regards,

Yardman

[LHR Rain]

A pilot with honour? Good on you New Tomcat! I wish there were more pilots with the integrity you posses.
Be sure to tell all of you mates back in the states about your decision and how it effects the current FOs at EK.

[new tomcat]

Thanks one and all for the words of encouragement you have given me. With all the postive words I know I have made the right decision.
I am a Delta captain and once flew in the Navy way back when. I have had a charmed life and I have much to be thankful for. I still have my orginal wife and like I said before I am making fairly decent money. I don't need to take any of your jobs.
Believe me when I tell you that I feel for you. I have never experienced first hand what most of you are going through.
I wish all of you well, we are all going to need it.

[far-rider]

So LHR, you claim to be on an upgrade course, are all the F/O's senior to you upgraded? I'll bet they havent, as a matter of fact I know they haven't. So you have jumped the cue like everyone else here, what a phony.
Tom cat..you have been duped by the usual group of flunkies led by LHR rain. When Delta takes another 25% of your salary and cancels your pension you will be back, remember that LHR jumped the cue when he had his chance, if you take advice from this lot you will truly be sorry.

[new tomcat]

Far rider I must say that you are the first negative response that I have encountered at Emirates. Even if Delta takes another 15%, from what I have heard and researched I am better off staying where I am presently. I make $180 an hour and paycut of even 20% I will still be making $144 an hour which is still a lot of money and more than Emirates pays. Then when you take into account how expensive it is to live in Dubai especially compared to the US I still have a long way to go. Like I said if I am out of a job it is an entirely different story.
I have heard from numerous people and pilots from Emirates not just London guy. I have also from other sources beside this site. Thanks for your concern.

[recceguy]

And by the way you Americans do you really want so much to live in Middle-Eat ? other nationalities are currently more appropriate to become expats there...

[Charlie Murdoch]

Latest news from the DEC applicants is that TCAS is offering a 38000 Dhm contract for DECs from selected airlines. Apparently the new contract also includes basing provisions, as long as you are domiciled in an island offshore of Europe.
I'm sure that will help things here...

[Andu]

Given that this is a rumour network, I'll wait for confirmation on both points of this particular rumour before blowing a gasket. However, it's not the first time I've heard the 38,000 dits a month story, (although it is the first time I've heard anything about basing).

If the 38,000 dits story proves to be true, and if (big 'if' this), as many training captains resign from training as have threatened to the day they're asked to train someone being paid more then they are, the ranks of the trainers will be thinning substantially. (Although I for one will believe it when I see it.) With a few exceptions, I just don't think most trainers will actually carry out their threats, and I believe Management, going on past performance, have come to the same conclusion.

I know of quite a few of our senior line captains (AND trainers) who would have all the ticks in the boxes required for a DEC on 38,0000 a month (except, of course, the most important one - they're not ex-BA!!!!). I wonder how many will try the resign and re-apply route? I know of one or two who've been asking about basing for years now and who've never got past first base (no pun intended) with their requests.

If the basing story as well as the 38,000 dits story is true, I think I could safely say "interesting times ahead".


----

Spreaking of 'interesting times',and totally changing subjects in mid-stream, I wonder how many of the Yank DECs will still be in Dubai five minutes afterwards should the caa-caa officially hit the fan between Dubya and Iran, a possibility that's looking a little more likely as each day passes?

[turtleneck]

not defending ek for nothing, but couldn't it be that the 38k consist of salary 28k+ and housing allowance 9k+? would look less threatening, allthough still very unpleasant.
ttn

[parcival]

Can't see many trainers resigning on principle, but can see many crew, and this would include trainers, taking this as a push to far and look for employment elsewhere.
Guess this would mean EK would need even more DECs.

There has been talk over the past couple of years of taking EK public . Presumably the short term cost savings which have led to the need for DECs are intended to make the company appear to be in good shape for floating if they decide to go that way.

[new tomcat]

Hello everyone again. I applied and was offered 38,000 AED a month plus housing and education allowances. They also told me that I could expect some significant amount of overtime for at least the first year that I joined. Sorry to burst your bubble as I know that the many pilots that have emailed me were afraid of this very amount being offered to DECs.
I have never worked outside of the USA but I have never heard of any airline offering more money to a new-hire than the check airman training the new-hire. Just another reason I won't be joining the ranks of the fatigued and fed-up. Good luck to you all!

[Fugazi]

Can anyone else please confirm "new tomcat's" reply regarding the 38,000 dhs starting salary. If true, the morale among the EK drivers will plummet even lower! :hmm:

[LHR Rain]

Confirmed!

[fatbus]

well if thats the case this is a sinking ship,more and more parked airplanes due to lack of crew.the numbers on the poll will change as well

[EGGW]

LHR Rain Care to elaborate old chap??? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/schlafen/sleeping-smiley-009.gif

EGGW

[Bird On]

Hogwash.....not only is it not true, the figure is not even close to the mark. Gets the attention nonetheless.

Actually though, a good many trainers are earning significantly more than
Dhs 38000 basic salary per month....why do you think they don't really give a toss?

[Dani]

I'm not close to UAE and EK, so please could someone explain what is so disastrous about 38k = 10k US$? Every expats gets 10k US$, be it in India, Far East, Japan. It doesn't even have to be a wide body.

Dani

[picu]

Bird On, have been a trainer for about 3 years now. My salary, including training allowance, but excluding overtime pay (of which I make hardly any even though I regularly do over 100 credit hours from the old system) is never more than 32000 Dhs.

[Vorsicht]

Your figures cannot be correct.

If you have been training for 3 years you must be at least a 4 year captain which will put you on around 30k. Plus training pay = 35k min. Transport allowance comes on top of that. I think you are trying to wind somebody up. If not you need to visit payroll.

[picu]

Vorsicht, you're right. ( Checked my payslip ) Basic is just under 30K so with the training allowance comes to about 35K. I forgot to take into account provident scheme payments etc.
The figure would still be short of the 38K offered to DECs ( as the rumour goes)
I refuse to include the transport allowance - we have to use our own car unlike everybody else.
Red hackle makes about 4000 a month in overtime - I never make anything near that. Good luck to him.
There are many other trainers below me in seniority who make even less than I do ( apart from overtime - I obviously don't know how much they make in that respect.)
Interesting to see that Red Hackle, 11 years in the company, makes 40K a month (basic and training). Since that would be only 2K more than a new Dec, WHO DOES NOT TRAIN, I find that sad.
I only hope that this rumour is only that and nothing more. AS had a chat with us recently, and when asked whether DECs will get a higher pay than first year captain, he denied it. Until it happens, i just have to take his word for it.

[parcival]

So substitute DHs38,000 for DHs34,225 and a DEC after a year in the company could be a trainer on DHs59,995, this being the point of this thread.

Not bad.

[pintofstella]

at the end of the day if anyone does not like it, (if the rumour mill is correct or not) then leave like so many others are doing. plenty of other jobs with better life styles elsewhere which is what we really want.

keep recovering!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Captain Billy]

This is very concerning news indeed! There are over 1600 views and now 16 posts - 1 post in the last 400 views- for me it is time to voice my opinion this is the most important issue for my retirement! If I do not write a letter of complaint to management expressing concern about this news then I have willing accepted the DEC contract without my own conditions being attended to. Our flight ops management will only be in a position to do something if this becomes a major point of concern that needs to be voiced to the next level I am aware of that and have written a letter. The airline is expanding at a massive rate and the airline will rightly try to do this in the most economical way possible as any of us would if we were airline owners. The airline need to be convinced that the cost of bringing in direct entry Captains paid at a rate above that of any pilot with less than 15 years (95 % of the current pilot ranks) is not worth the risk of ruining the good will and loyalty to this organization that has helped to keep it growing so well. Moral is a key issue, my roster is under huge pressure from under manning and I am willing to help as much as I can at this critical time, the problem is I have a retirement fund that is so awful that the national pilots have left it. To accept this means that I and 95% of our pilots will NEVER achieve a salary at the offering to DEC's and my salary is the only thing that will realistically pay for my retirement and provide future opportunities for my family. For me personally this has resulted in my first post here. I have nearly seven years of dedicated and largely unwavering support for this great airline and nearly twenty more years to retirment. The news that they try to fill the numbers without rewarding the loyalty I find depressing. If the result of all this is negative then its time for me to seriously consider what has been unthinkable- joining our colleagues who have taken a move to the far east where accommodation allowances can help fund retirement - (twenty years of rental allowance at USD 7000 per month will make the difference) Here its my salary that has to support the retirement planning. These new DEC will forever get a salary in excess of mine and they are coming to us having worked for our competitors for many years. The company will reward them more every month and that I find difficult. I am sure that many like our leader have a very beneficial retirement package in place. I find that very short sighted and disheartening and difficult to maintain my enthusiam for a company that I greatly care about.So for me a time to make a personal choice the first step is either: A) Write a personal message to the company stongly expressing these concerns I have expressed B) Welcome the news that the company is paying AED 38K+ to attract well qualified DEC's and I am happy to accept - with no change in our conditions - to ensure the growth of the airline.I have chosen A)- what will you do?

[Supertramp]

Hello all from another first time poster. "Captain Billy" just about sums up my feelings.

I can't help but come to the rather unpalatable conclusion that the decision makers in EGHQ have decided that now that they consider themselves to be at the helm of major airline, they need 'real' pilots, and that we, the pilots who've been manning their big white airplanes to date, including the training pilots, don't quite rate any more (if we ever did in their eyes).

I've been aware for some years now that management have absolutely no respect for us pilots, but if this is true, it really underlines that fact.

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the supposed basing offer some DECs are said to have had offered to them. Surely that can't be true?

Also interesting is the fact tha so few EK pilots feel confident enough to post their opinions here. I suspect that many are more than a little paranoid about airing their grievances anywhere, which might explain the huge disparity between hits and posts on this (and any other EK) thread.

[propaganda]

:eek: CM: O/S BASES ( DOMICILED IN AN ISLAND OFFSHORE OF EUROPE )..
Can anyone confirm this rumour...(.will the IOM do):ok:

[MR8]

Capt Billy,

I think you have to reconsider your options..

A. Write a personal message to the company stongly expressing these concerns I have expressed

B. Welcome the news that the company is paying AED 38K+ to attract DEC's that never flew long haul or wide body before, thus are hardly qualified compared to many of our own First Officersand I am happy to accept - with no change in our conditions - to ensure the growth of the airline.

I know personally of a candidate offered a DEC position who only flew 737's before. Currently we have guys who never flew wide body before joining as DEC. We even have a guy who entered as a DEC with NO glass, NO pax and NEVER flew without a Flight Engineer. ALso, about half of his total time was on helicopters.

Maybe I need to be more positive. Maybe the salaries these guys were offered are the new salaries as from April. So thats 38000 for a new Captain. Our long awaited 30% payrise might be a fact???

[radnav]

Lets face it Emirates is really only structured the same as a short term Contract job and not a career job and this favors the DEC program.

A DEC with 6 months service has all the privileges and more of a 10 year plus Captain.....Roster Bidding, Leave Bidding, Housing, Staff Travel, Salary etc,etc.

Seniority, length of service, loyalty,sacrifice,moral all mean absolutely nought to Emirates management.

The sooner crews take the same approach and treat Emirates as the short term contract job it has become the better for all. Fly Emirates... leave...fly elsewhere...return...leave again...what have you really lost, just the pain in your rump :ooh: .

[ernestkgann]

Capt Will, S Tramp, I appreciate that current circumstances now warrant you making your first posts on this site. Obviously the proposed conditions don't favour you so you've decided to write a letter and voice an opinion.
What I find slightly ironic is that only when something affects you personally do you hold your hand up. You also express some dismay at many people viewing but not contributing yet this is your first dalliance with the devil. We are all suffering because we are apathetic to most things that happen in the airline until they directly affect us.
My personal opinion is that because the airline is set up in the classic 'gulf model' of management (managers without power, rule by fear, like it or leave, guest workers, compliant regulator) nothing can change or get better unless outside forces dictate the change. This being the case Prune is actually the first step in alerting others, be they foreign regulators or prospective employees, that things in our airline are not right.
I have written letters in the past but have now given up. I think large numbers may make some difference and certainly ASRs do. A letter to TCAS only gets as far as TCAS. He is essentially powerless and it isn't in his interest to rock the boat too hard.
In short Prune does us lots of favours. In many ways it's the best representation we get in this kind of company.

[knotknowing]

Ernst Quote -
“ A letter to TCAS only gets as far as TCAS. He is essentially powerless and it isn't in his interest to rock the boat too hard “

Sums it up mate - well said !

The previous two Goons in his position rocked the boat and swiftly fell overboard – desks cleaned out by lunchtime !

Fairly shocking how rapidly we’re getting on the wrong side of the drag curve !
Not only are we short of crews, I’m meeting lots of guys now who are smiling about the enforced time off due to the 900 hour annual limit.
It’s a major stuff up “ heads should roll ! “

[max magic]

Hi Gents,

Just for the record - if one was to join EK this year as an FO with 4100 hrs, how long would it take to get a command on 777 fleet and the 330 ? taking into account the aircraft deliveries and DEC's ..... i know this may seem like a " how long is a piece of string " type question but some idea would help !

Cheers !

Max :ok:

[jeff748]

How about for a F/O with 12000+ hours and glass time?

[SecurID]

An FO with 4000 hrs will take just as long (or as short) as an FO with 12000 hrs to get upgraded.

[Cerberus]

Its like everything here, it depends when the expansion will stop. We now have 3 regional long haul carriers and a bunch of LoCos in the game.

Upgrades right now are taking between 3 and 4 years. But...past performance is not an indicator of future performance. Getting out my fag packet:

If you joined today it would be at 1300ish on the list. Lets assume 75 DECs/year (optimistic), after 4 years you would be behind 1600 other pilots and so to get a command we would probably need about 2900 pilots allowing for management etc. We are planning on recruiting about 250/year (I said planning!). That would be 1400/250 = 5ish years assuming the expansion keeps going at the present rate. Might be a tad quicker; might be a lot slower. As a 4000hr kind of guy you might also get screwed by accelerated commands.

:ugh:

[max magic]

Cheers Ceberus, :ok:

Just to clarify - is an accelerated command for a pilot who has command hours - ie: 6000 + and has held a command before ? .... so he may expect a command in 18 months or so ?

Max

[320operator]

Cerberus,

You did not include any resignations/retirements in your equation.......is there any "past performance indicator" to use for that?


320op

[Cerberus]

Resignations were traditionally low but were much higher last year. However, that is why I left the flex in the equation (2900-1300=1600). Without any resignations you would be looking at 1600/250=nearly 6 1/2 years, with say 50/year you'd be looking at less, unless the guys lost were replaced with DECs. If the expansion 'stalled' though the picture might look very different. We are approaching Vls, hopefully Alpha Floor is about to kick in and save us all.

As for accelerated commands, allegedly they are available to guys with 8000+ and a couple of thousand hours of command time. But....getting accelerated also removes an F/O from the bottom of the pile and that might not fit into the company's expansion plans. All of the guys above you will be qualified for a command as they are now waiting to the 4 year point. You have to decide whether F/Os or DECs are easier to come by.

[330 Man]

Max,
Just to clarify the accelerated command program. We only use accelerated command upgrades if there are no 3 year first officers available for upgrade.
On the airbus, there are many 3 year first officers who are waiting to upgrade, so there will be no accelerated command's in the next year and a half or so. The story might be different on the Boeing. You can NEVER expect to upgrade in 18 months, as many 18 month+ dec/accelerated f/o's
will tell you!

[new tomcat]

Thank you one and all for all of the private messages that you have sent me over the past week. I know most of the Emirates pilots are quite concerned with the way things are transpiring over in the sand.
To answer just a few of your questions I am a current B-767 captain but I also have a type rating on the B-777 with no PIC time. I have over 5000 hours of heavy PIC time.
Some of my fellow colleagues have told me that Emirates was at a job fair in Atlanta trying to recruit some captains. Most were just checking it out but they have a few takers. Some were interviewed in the states. Even at 38,000 AED a month that is considerably below what we are making now but some pilots are panicking here.
Keep the faith and the private messages coming.

Tom

[donpizmeov]

Something about this on rumour busters on the portal.

Don

[the sleuth]

So do they accept russian heavy jet for dec?

or just western type only?

thank you for info

[far-rider]

OK Tomcat I call Bullsh*t
Just like LHR rain your starting to lose track of all the BS you spout here.
You were not offered a job at 38000 dhs per month, you would have to come to Dubai, do the interview and wait for an offer, that didnt happen. You said you wouldn't even come for the interview, so it's an outright fib.
There was no job fair in Atlanta that EK was at, more BS.
I not sure what you think your trying to prove here, maybe justifying a bad decision I suppose.
Not matter what problems EK has and there are lots, we are not bankrupt and according to all acounts Delta's long term outlook is grim. Iknow what you guys make and after taxes it is less that EK left seat after a few years, wide body.

[filejw]

Hi, I have no gun in this fight however a recent job fair did advertise EK would be in attendance. I don't remember the organizer.JW

[new tomcat]

Let's get a few things straight real quick. Okay! Don't put down any pilot because of the financial state of the company. It is not anyones fault (except the mangers) that a company goes into bankruptcy and at the same time you are not someone special because your company makes almost a billion dollars in profits. If you want to dive deeper look at the reasons why your company is succesful but that is a later post if you want to go that route.
Secondly I never said that I went to a job fair in ATL just that I heard that Emirates was there and someone else back up that asertion. Talk to the people that were there. I do know that Emirates was in DFW maybe 10 days or so ago but don't hold me to the dates.
Also I never said that I would not interview just that I would not take the job IF offered. It was offered and I turned it down.
In addition I am glad that you know what we make. Keep in mind that amount is now over a 50% paycut as well as numerous work rule changes with a frozen A fund. You start out somewhere around $7500 which I fully realize is tax free with a villa. Even our bottom captain earns at least $145,000. The only reason the offer was competive was that Emirates was giving a significant amount above your minimum.
I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else.

[davidletterman]

EK did attend the seminar, maybe not Atlanta, but somewhere in Texas... far-rider, you ride too far...




Seminar & Job Fair Airlines Attending List


Airlines Attending the Irving (Jan 2006) Job Fair

- Select a Seminar -LAX ( Mar 2006 )DFW ( Jan 2006 )ATL ( Nov 2005 )LAX ( Sep 2005 )DCA ( Aug 2005 )MIA ( Jun 2005 )ATL ( Apr 2005 )DFW ( Jan 2005 )

Foreign

Emirates Airlines

Attending: Donna Rawson, Recruitment Specialist



Disclaimer: Although the participation of airline representatives is confirmed at the time of your registration,
attendance is not guaranteed and is subject to change.
For more information on attending or exhibiting at the Airline Pilot Career Seminar and Job Fair,
contact AIR, Inc. at 1-800-AIR-APPS (800-247-2777).



AIR, Inc. * Atlanta, GA * Copyright ©2006 * 800-AIR-APPS/800-JET-JOBS * www.airapps.com / www.jet-jobs.com

[BYMONEK]

TOMCAT
"Also I never said that I would not interview just that I would not take the job IF offered. It was offered and I turned it down."
Read that many times over and still makes no sense. By the way, that dhs38,000 is complete tosh.
I'll get out my resignation letter IF that ever becomes fact but until then I will ignore wind up merchants like you and join Quod boy for a beer........or two!

[Quod Boy]

BYMON,

Come on down to Longs,however Im afraid the 38K rumour is gaining momentum and it would not surprise me in the LEAST if introduced,why else would any 777 pilot give up seniority in an established airline to come to EK?

Its a yet another short term fix,but if you were 54,with a 90K UK pension,150 K lump sum sitting in the bank after your 30 yrs at BA ,(or about to be furloughed by Delta.or a current 737 Capt wanting big jet time) wouldnt you consider 3 yrs in the sunshinme to improve yr golf handicap?

I think it would be the single most divisive move yet in a long list of unbelievable decisions thus far.

Imagine trying pulling thatstunt in BA.

Beer awaits,QB

[Keith Discovering]

Actually BYMONEK, I believe that 'some' DEC's are being offered (and accepting) Dhs38,000 SALARY. Apparently they won't come for less. As i said before, ask TCAS what his mates are joining on...


Remember; there's no smoke without fire! Reminds me, i'm about due for a p*ss!

[Twinpacks]

I have no personal ill feelings against a guy that wants to join as a DEC, especially for 38,000 Dhs per month!
But you won't find me in the same flightdeck as him. I have a feeling I'll be sick on the day I'm rostered with a DEC! I hope that my "sickness" is very contagious!

[puff m'call]

As long as we lie down and take it they are joing to keep dishing this sh1t out, if something is going to be done it need ALL of us to take action not just a few individuals willing to stick their necks out.

AHHHHHH CHEWWWWWWWW, oh if feel a bad cold coming on!!!!!!!!! :mad:

[BYMONEK]

Well, like I said, until I see it in writing or fly with a guy who shows me a salary slip with the facts, it will remain a rumour.Regardless of how much momentum it's gaining!

Just hope I don't end up with egg on my face with this one.

[puff m'call]

All will be revealed soon, got a mate coming out for a DEC interview so I will post the grim details.

OOOOH can't waite.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Heard a type rated TRE from a high paying job, with its a and b scale in the correct order, was offered 50,000dhs, otherwise he wasnt coming.
He was also told to sign a confidentiality agrrement with his contract if he accepted.
Hes going on the freighter and home instead.
Says u guys need a union..............:\

[Gillegan]

The company has posted what I would term as an unequivocal denial of this rumour on the portal. Should the rumour turn out to be true, it would be the straw that breaks my camels back. If anyone has any proof of the rumour, I would be most interested in seeing it.

[fatigueflyer]

Heard from a mate that 38000 includes housing....that came from TCAS!

[EGGW]

Like Gillegan says, where is the actual written evidence for all this. If anyones "mates" have this offer written down, surely they can fax a copy to them. Otherwise this will only be rumour and nothing else. It was denied on the portal, and if in the end it does turn out to be true, then people will leave in large numbers, fact.

EGGW

[Dissapointed]

There is now a rumour going round that there were a few DECs offered higher starting slaries, they have now been called by recruitment to say that the starting basic will be as the website states. The rumour buster announcement is therefore not incorrect and also makes the statements made by senior managers (that the DECs are starting on a Captain's year 1 basic salary) also technically correct.

But the DECs are still coming, which says, at least to me, that they were offered something else as well in addition to the original starting basic offered, otherwise why would they come? A 'confidentiality clause' is also rumoured to have been signed by the DECs.

Regardless of the real truth, questions need to be asked and answered honestly. Has anyone actually been to see TCAS and asked about this directly?

[Gillegan]

The fact that it was LL who responded to the rumour on the portal means a lot to me. I have always found LL to be a man of integrity (the one person around here whose word you could take to the bank) and would be disappointed in the extreme if this rumour turns out to be true. He is certainly not the kind of guy to parse words for a "technically correct statement". It is probably an apt commentary on the credibility of our management that despite the denials, many believe the rumour to be true.

[MR8]

Gillegan,

I don't know about LL answering the question. Don't get me wrong, I'll never doubt the integrity of LL, and like many posted in the last few weeks, he will be missed. (If you are reading this, thanks for your good work LL!!)

I have this weird feeling that management uses LL's reputaion as their own to cool down things. By the time the first of these DECWEC's (Direct Entry Captain With Extra Ca$h) arrive, and prove will be there in form of payslips or contracts or whatever.. LL will be going or has been gone.
I see our beloved management capable of using and destroying the excellent reputation of one of their colleagues to put out a fire (for now..)

Going back 2 years.. I can't remember exactly, but I thought that the DEC's we took in about 2 years ago were not on a year one captains salary, but on step 16 or something?? Can someone confirm at what salary those DEC's started? If I'm right about this, then LL's answer makes no sense at all, there was no other info posted on the website back then...

For some reason I just don't trust these guys in management anymore.. I wonder why exactly????

[Desert Whine]

got a mate coming out for a DEC interview DECs are OK as long as they're our mates..... :ok:

:rolleyes:

We understand that 45 pilots have resigned since the beginning of this year, is that true?-XXX

This rumour was also busted by the buster. Only 18, they said BUT........ pprune says it's true so it MUST be true.

[parcival]

Clearly more is going on here than is visible. I doubt that LL has all the facts. AS is merely a puppet for a management team who are only interested in the balance sheet at the end of the month and will look no further ahead than that.
A management team who believe that they can treat a large group of professional people as casual labour.
Who are now finding that the only people available on the pilot market are BA retirees and US crews. The rest of the aviation world now experiencing a mild boom and not interested in joining an outfit with a reputation and record of poor employee management.
Had they not introduced policies that have led to dissatisfaction and unprecedented resignations they would be less likely to be in the position of having to offer exaggerated salaries to Brits already on fat pensions and to Americans who would otherwise avoid this area.
Short term savings have led to long term costs.
Reinstatement of the previous credit system, a realistic pay rise and a fair and consistent upgrade policy might put this airline back where it was before.
Nothing less will.

[Scudsy]

DEC's who joined 2 years ago earned more than a Year 1 Captain upgraded from the RHS.
I thought this was already common knowledge! I'm surprised so many are in the dark on this one. Just ask the DEC's you bump into, there's no big secret.
I think the guy I joined with was straight in on year 3 pay but my memory is fading a bit with all the high altitude night flying. Neither of us had wide body when we joined.
The Engineers are faced with exactly the same problem. New Guys arrive on more money than existing engineers who then train up the new guys to do the job. Just ask around, no need for "I'll only believe it when they beat me over the head with it" attitude. Everyone I've asked has just come out with the figure!
This is a genuine abuse of the existing drivers. I've seen lots of "why are you pissed off?" comments made on these threads and this is THE reason.
Captains feel shafted (not being paid the going rate) and the F/O's are demoralised by hearing all this stuff. What's the point of jumping through all the hoops and proving astronaut ability from the RHS? Should have come as a DEC!
I think it's a bit much to ask to see a bloke's pay slip. I trust them when they say they are on more money.
I'm sorry but the rumour buster is wrong on this one...
JUST ASK THE BLOKE WITH 4 STRIPES AND A NEW STAFF NUMBER!
Simple really.

[Toad Hall]

The BA retirees may not appear in the numbers TCAS wants as european legislation is going to force BA to allow their pilots to work to 60.
The new DEC's will join on more money like they have over the last couple of years its an indirect way EK admit their package is not enough to attract pilots from 1st world airlines. The DEC's also sign a bond for 1 year where as F/O's sign a 3 year bond how is that fair??? not to mention 1st class tickets provided to come for the interview when our first officers are not entitled to first class travel on a subload basis.
Is it any wonder the EK pilots are pissed off?
Any DEC's thinking of joining should realise they are not welcome or needed in Emirates.

[shawarma]

thats it ive had enough, bidding for a one way trip home...:{

[ruserious]

There is plenty of precedent in the company for the confidentiality agreement style of management. Just ask the guys who a few years ago fought and won the right to get their profit share after they were incorrectly excluded from it. They were asked to sign a confidentiality agreement, which they (and only they) did, they then got their profit share.
Its also no big secret that VP's and SVP's etc get a disproportionate share of any so called profit share, this again is completely against what it says on the label of the Sheik's yearly statement.

Any DEC that gets a pumped up contract with a confidentiality agreement, please take it and then publish it (de-identified) on the web, because unless we put a stop to this with evidence, you will be the next person in line for a sh*fting in the future with some kind of underhand shady manipulation of your contract.

Apart from all this, if this is being done, it is completely against UAE law and we can all join together in a class action and take our management to court :eek:

[4HolerPoler]

UAE law.....class action :confused: - i'm no legal type but are you sure there's any facility for a class action suit in the UAE????? Hey, I'd like to think so but I'm highly doubtful.

4HP

[parcival]

The Mods' right, the only message this crowd get is voting with feet.

And that's happening now.

[Fly747]

It appears to me that the going rate for a wide body captain is $10,000 a month plus. I understand that 330/340 trainers can expect 13-15k$. So I guess that if EK are not offering DECs around that and as $10k is about 36.5k dirham then they won't get too many takers unless they are offering your rumoured 38k. It sounds about right to me.
With any luck and with the promised pilot shortage we should see more than that becoming the norm. I feel sorry for the guys stuck as FOs at EK and hope that things improve for you. The only way it will change for you is when the leavers start hurting the schedule.

[MR8]

Fly747,

I don't care what the rate is elsewhere... If the package at EK is not competitive anymore with other carriers hiring expats, then EK should indeed improver their package, starting with the guys who have been working their asses of for the last years to get EK where it is now. It's an absolute NO to get A,B,... packages depending on when you arrive and in what function you arrive. I don't know any company where a guy with less seniority is being paid more for the same position.

Leavers and no-showers ARE hurting the schedule. Have been called AGAIN today on my day off to crew a flight, but I gently refused to do so. I do feel sorry for the crewing guys who have to call around and beg people to fly on their days off.

AGAIN, I would ask everybody to talk to your colleagues, and try to convince them that the only way to get long term improvements at EK is to refuse any flights on days off, refuse going into discretion (only Captains can do that). I'm even thinking about only going through CBC one hour before STD. If someone blames me, my duty only starts at STD-1. Everything before that is MY time. Although before actualy doing that, I probably need to grow some more cojones.

Anyhow... looking forward to that first copy of a payslip being nicked out of a new DEC's pigeonhole and posted on some walls in CBC... How will TCAS explain that??

MR8

[411A]

>>I don't care what the rate is elsewhere... If the package at EK is not competitive anymore with other carriers hiring expats, then EK should indeed improver their package, starting with the guys who have been working their asses of for the last years to get EK where it is now<<
Strange as it seems, MR8, this happens less frequently, and is not likely to change much either.
Those who joined with rose colored glasses firmly in place have only themselves to blame, as many here on these same forums were told so at the time.
Silly boys they were...and still are.:yuk:

Now, if EK hires DE Captains at much higher salaries, maybe the 'less fortunate' should re-apply.........and promptly be told to go pound sand.

If you sign on the dotted line, and later find yourself in deep doggie do-do, look in the mirror to find the 'not so bright'.

[EGGW]

411a. Please f*** **f to your hole from whence you came. 4Hp PLEASE edit as req, but please ban this tw*t.

EGGW. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Who me? You're big enough & ugly enough to take care of him yourself. I should censor your post but I'm having such a giggle at your frustration with this knuckle-head that I'm gonna leave it just like it is. Take it easy; recognize a bait when you see one. 4HP

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Been unable to post lately has EK been blocking guys from PPrune on request......

[ironbutt57]

Hey gotta respect free speech, not necessarily his views mind you, I don't, it would really suck if new capts were getting hired at a rate more than mine....doesnt happen here ...too bad 411A is timed out, they'd love him over here in the gulf...he's probably hiding behind Papago buttes choking his chicken at the moment

[White Knight]

Beautiful post Ironbutt - you're assuming of course that old men can find their shrivelled chicken:} :} (Sorry 411, I'll admit that was a BIT below the belt)

[LHR Rain]

411 are you still looking for a real job? Why don't you try and get a real job first then pontificate on this site second? All that "classic" time has to land you somewhere. EK would love to have you. You are so wise and old.

[millerscourt]

411A claims to have been a SQ B707 Captain 30 years ago and I have no reason to believe this was not so .This would make him at least 65 probably close to 70 so take no notice of what he says on these kind of issues.

[seemorejugs]

Guys,
Wake up and smell the roses!! We don't and never will have a seniority at Emirates. It was like that when you joined and will be as long as you stay. If you don't like it, then we have to vote with our feet..Reality Check!! Bitching here is not going to solve anything....