DEC's at EK

[EK Pilot]

No probs posting here, but then I use a secondary site to go to PPRuNe on, it hides the 'snail trails' and you can't get fingered by the Web Police in EGHQ. At the end of the day, what can they do? Fire you for being suspicious of management conduct? Christ, we'd all be fired if that were the case!

Going back to the problem, it is one of trust and if TCAS says that the DECs are being paid Dhs27,000, or whatever the starting is these days, then so be it. You can't argue with him.

BUT a snitch in HR has confirmed that somone's been phoning around the DECs that were offerred jobs at a higher amount and confirming 'New Terms.' These 'New Terms' include the reduction of the basic salary back to Dhs27,000 and not that originally offerred. So as has been said before, no one is telling lies, they are just not telling the whole truth.

[plovdiv]

Every forum has one, a 411A that is.

Spouting off to no one in particular:

'in my day', 'Boeing 707', 'straight to the left seat', 'jet command at 25', 'told you so' and so on.

90% of it self indulgent bull, 10% making a bit of sense but mostly lost in the rest of it.

Like the village idiot everybody loves him really (except EGGW).

Keep it up Gramps!

[MR8]

Straight copy paste from EK webite:
CAPTAIN SALARY:
Monthly Salary
Starting Salary is Dhs 26,210 and is reviewed annually. (1 US$ = 3.66 UAE Dirhams). The salary is tax free.
Productivity Pay
For each block hour above approximately 78 hours per month, an additional Dhs 400
That's 7161 US$.. wonder who will come for that?? But any DEC starting above that would imply that management told us a straight lie on the rumour buster. So the options are...
1. Management did lie to us (again...) :mad:
2. Management did not lie and the only people who would even think about coming over are the ones who lack experience and must rely on the F/O for a safe operation, the ones who can go nowhere else because of their (bought) Mickey Mouse licence or the complete nutters... :yuk:
3. Management did not lie and in order to get some qualified DEC's, the package for the whole pilot community gets increased by 40% to attract people at the going rate of 10000 US$ :rolleyes:
Gentlemen, place your bets... :E
MR8

[chinawladi]

.......1.......

[BBJ King]

.........1...

[madmax100]

Think its about time you boys arranged a MASS SICKIE to send your management a CLEAR message!!!!! :E

.........................1..........................

[EGGW]

One should never post on return from the pub http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/ernaehrung/food-smiley-012.gif :}

Thanks for your post 4hp. 411a is still a tw*t mind or village idiot if you like.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/ernaehrung/food-smiley-012.gif

EGGW

[fatigueflyer]

The sums don't add up with anything less than USD 10000 per month plus housing, medical, education etc. The longer I stay here the more I am indirectly taxed ie. inflation resulting in extra costs for shopping, petrol, restaurants etc. I have been here approx 10 years and have received a paltry 10% payrise during this time. Inflation alone has increased over 50%. In addition, putting my family's life at risk everyday on S.Z. rd, increasing pollution due to the building site called Dubai, current sensitive cultural issues, no freedom of speech -what happened to 7days newspaper today???, working conditions (100+ hrs/mth, no leave credit therefore no protection against lifestyle, working on days off/leave, leave that cannot be used due no slots, flight safety & fatigue). The only way I would further inconvenience myself and my family in this place is to see a minimum 20-30% payrise asap (not likely.....). Wow, suddenly DECs coming on USD 10000 + does not sound so cheery afterall. :sad:

[halas]

What if they do pay them the required salary, but....

They get a different bonus to everyone else each year?

That way they start on starting captains pay, no?

There is more than one way to pay them more than the rest without the rest needing to know about it.

Some animals are more equal than others.

halas

PS 7DAYS never comes out on Saturday. Makes you wonder why it's called that, no? (Been here too long, no?)

[4PW's]

An end of month figure of 38,000 Dhs isn't that much.

All expatriate Captains I know that fly for Asian carriers get quite a bit more than that, after tax or otherwise.

Some of us pay tax, some don't, but in every company a 100 hour month is far, far more than the equivalent of 38,000 Dhs.

Do the Line Captains at EK really get less?

Last thing: don't take 411A's posts so hard. He's retired and bored and lonely and so obviously frustrated he's not a part of the working world. It cuts a swathe through every one of his worsening posts.

But hey, we'll all be old and useless one day.

[donpizmeov]

In a interview with the EK chairman the other day, the Gulf News quoted him as saying that EK will have a fleet of 132 aeroplanes by 2013. Since we have about 80 aeroplanes now that leaves 52 new deliveries to be crewed in the next 7 and a bit years (other deliveries are to replace the 330s A market boeings etc). At 10 crews per aeroplane (a guess, I am sure someone will have a better figues), thats 520 commands. With the 100 or so DECs they are looking for in the next 12 months or so, and with some 650ish FOs already on the list, commands now may take some time in coming. Or am I missing something?

Don

[LHR Rain]

No you are spot on DON. It would help if EK went to 14 crews per airplane like the industry norm but there is as much chance of that happening as snow falling in Dubai in summer. After all we know what part of the world we live in.

[BlueEagle]

LHR RAIN says:
"It would help if EK went to 14 crews per airplane like the industry norm "

Others may disagree but on long-haul 11 crews per aircraft is quite common, (SIA etc.) and on short-haul 5 to 7 crews per a/c.

Interested to hear what others have to say.

[BYMONEK]

BlueEagle

Agree with you on that one. Last Company was around 7-8 per Aircraft with mix of some longhaul ( not ultra ) and mainly short / medium. Most dedicated longhauls work on around 9-10. Maybe LHR Rain was meant to divide by 2! I doubt even the US legacy carriers use 14 per aircraft.
He'll be telling us next that 16 days off a month is the norm..........:hmm:

[LHR Rain]

Yes I would be telling you that and yes ultra long haul work, thats right work 8-12 days a month and still get their 75 hours in a month.

[4engines]

HI Guys,
i have been reading all the threads about EK, i am glad i did.
I am currently flying the 744 with AI and was thinking about applying to EK, but i guess that it was just a case of the grass APPEARING greener on the other side.From what i have heard so far i think i am better off staying with AI.
AI has too been taking in a lot of DECs, that will definitely affect my upgrade time but the good part is that all the DECs are on temporary contracts so they will all be gone in about a 2-3 years.

[EK Pilot]

4PW's, It is true. I am a moderately senior Captain with Emirates and my basic salary is Dhs29,000, that is just US$7900. Yes, It is tax free.

I fly nearly 100 hours a month across the night time and different time zones, I get Dhs400 (US$108) every hour above about 78 hours a month, there is no duty pay. I get an allowance when I check in at the comapny hotels, but I am nearly always spending in excess of the allowance but I do enjoy my time with my colleagues as it is the only time that I can have a social life with so few days off in Dubai. I get a company provided villa and could, if I wanted to, take the housing allowance instead to rent on my own, but the rents go up very much each year. I get a car to pick me up and take me to work. I have been here 6 years and why am I am looking at other jobs now? Because the inflation here has made the spending power less and we are being treated badly by the managers who take all credit for all the hard work that we all do. I know that this exists elsewhere, but I would rather that I earned US$12000 a month for it.

[4PW's]

I'm sorry to hear that, EK Pilot.

I have just sent you a PM, which may have information as bright as "Dawn's rose-petaled fingers" if I understand the renumeration at Emirates correctly.

Actually, I wish to confess that I shudder every time I see that horrid EK logo on the tail of an otherwise fine piece of machinery.

Can't help wondering what effect mismanagement of staff will have on the airlines' bottom line in the longer term. Passengers will eventually become more aware of what EK's work practices are, which ultimately translate into less customer appeal. The worm will turn. It did at Boeing.

[EK Pilot]

You are a Gentleman, Sir!! Thank you for that, I will private mail you soon.

[tic]

I've got the time and more. Should I apply, for DEC?? IT's in your manuals, you know it, so what's the problem? Your Management has stated in the recent letter, that ALL upgrades will be within the current staff, no-one is argueing with that. It also said, that up-grades will not be affected, bearing in mind, the new aircraft coming. Therefore, I am NOT a threat to you, if I do apply. If I do and get in, am I going home with black eyes!!? Can't really see the problem.

[MR8]

easy.. Management lies!!

If you would come, don't expect a hearty welcome. And more important, once you're in, you'll find out about the management lies since then they will affect you as well.

BTW: You must be crazy to come under current conditions, unless they promised you a better salary, in which case it would be appreciated if you post the conditions they offered.

MR8

[Trashed Aviator]

From what i can gather the Airbus guys are stuck in a huge Rut.
There is many F/Os with the DEC and Accelerated hours as well as 3 year F/Os , and although in the book it says they can go to the 777 they first have to go as F/os for 6 months so theyll be paired up with DECs obviously , rubbing there noses in it.
I also belive the couses do not start till late this year so these guys will not be captains for another 18 months to 2 years yeat some will have more hours than you TIC.
The transition upgrade policy was deliberately made unattractive to stop Airbus guys moving , many waiting there time on the Airbus , while even a guy can come on to the 777 as F/O and get a command in 6 months if he meets the accelerated criteria , while similarly qualified F/Os on the airbus are looking at 4-5-possibly 6 years . Unfortunately its not like CX or BA or even Virgin and you will get bitten down path ,believe me and nobody will help you no union you are on your own.
I left after 2 years as there was no light at the end of the tunnel and glad i did, i didnt choose to go on the airbus but i was put on it with no prospect of command even though i had boeing command time i still could not get onto the 777, yet guys come off the street now , and you wonder why the F/Os are pissed off.
:{

[Dune]

donpizmeov:

Interesting info about the Chairman and his numbers:
"In a interview with the EK chairman the other day, the Gulf News quoted him as saying that EK will have a fleet of 132 aeroplanes by 2013".

I would appreciate if you could post a link to this interview.

And no, you are not missing anything and in fact you are generous with your numbers. The numbers don't lie and anyone coming to this outfit with the idea of getting a 3 year upgrade are dreaming and are in for a very large wakeup call.

The math gets very interesting...........here is some numbers for those of you who have just joined EK or are considering doing so:
Number of Pilots as of 25 Dec 2005:

Capt Airbus: 382
F/O Airbus: 376
Total Airbus: 758
Airbus a/c: 50 (29 A330, 10 A340-500, 8 A340-300, 1 A310, 2 A310F)
Airbus Manning: 15.16 pilots/aircraft

Captain Boeing: 242
F/O Boeing: 233
Total Boeing: 475
Boeing a/c: 30 (12 B777-300, 9 B777-200, 9 B777-300ER)
Boeing Manning: 15.83 pilots/aircraft

*All info taken from internal EK documents and/or public press releases.

As you can see, EK currently man their fleet at slightly less than 8 crews per a/c. Take off those who are in "managment" positions and only fly part of the month and those in training and you can see why we are flying our asses off.

Assuming the Chairmans numbers and no increase in manning levels, 132 aircraft x 15.41 pilots/aircraft = 2034 pilots by 2013. As we currently already have 1233 as of 25 Dec 2005, it looks to me like every single F/O coming now will remain so (even without the DEC's they are hiring) for a VERY LONG TIME.
The only way this scenario will change is if EK continue to buy more a/c; might happen but given the overcapacity already present in the Gulf I would not bet my career on it. Food for thought?

[LHR Rain]

I've got the time and more. Should I apply, for DEC?? IT's in your manuals, you know it, so what's the problem? Your Management has stated in the recent letter, that ALL upgrades will be within the current staff, no-one is argueing with that. It also said, that up-grades will not be affected, bearing in mind, the new aircraft coming. Therefore, I am NOT a threat to you, if I do apply. If I do and get in, am I going home with black eyes!!? Can't really see the problem.


TIC you can't see the problem because you are not here putting up with all the crap. We all know what our management has stated in the recent letters. What they don't tell you is all they wanted was to hire DECs and shove our career expectations up our arses. I say this because they have already interviewed and hired DECs and have done nothing and I mean nothing for normal, transtions, and accelerated upgrades. In other words the last three criteria are not going to happen while the first catagory has and is happening right before us.
The upgrades are effected. Do you really believe management on that one? No one on the Airbus has upgraded on time in the last year and no one on the Airbus will upgrade on time (3 yrs) for at least the next 2 yrs and probably longer.
You will be a problem TIC because more than likely you will come in at 38,000 AED which as you know is more than most of the captains here. If you are worth your weight in salt, that is you come from a good company you will not leave that company for any less money and good on you. If you are making less money than 38,000 AED you must be at a really good company. HA!
So with the above metioned items you will not be popular with the pilots here at EK but especially the FOs. I think even you can see why so many pilots would be upset at the situation and the reason for being upset. That is unless you are just trying to jerk our chain.

[donpizmeov]

Rainie,
TIC is a GF fella with too much time on his hands, who wants to wind you up. If you check, you will see that he reckons EKs days are numbered and that EY will rule the skies in the near future, so I think he has no intention of joining EK.
Dune,
Unfortunatley I do not have the link. I read it whilst over Iran on the way to Euro somewhere or other day. It was in the bussiness bit last week. Also made mention of fuel being 21% of costs now instead of 14%, other companies jealous etc etc. A couple of months ago the plan was to start to get rid of some of the 330s from late next year, and the 772s not far after that. Not sure if this has changed or not.
Tic,
For those that have joined within the last 2yrs the DEC thing should not be too much of a shock, as it was underway when they signed the dotted line. But for those that joined before this, and are still waiting for the seat change course, I can understand that they are unhappy when a DEC course is given priority and they are delayed yet again. Some of the fellas I have flown with lately have been told that their upgrade courses are delayed 12mths from the time of being eligable. So thats 12 times the monthly pay check, 12 times the provident payment, 12 months of being unable to get on a flight with a subload ticket because J and Y are full and 1 profit share behind because of DECs. So I do understand why the are not happy campers. This is after a garantee from management 2yrs ago that no-one would be adversely doneby this new policy.
Don

[typhoonpilot]

Dune:

Your numbers are spot on :ok: I tell people coming for F.O. interviews that they must not listen to HR in regards to upgrade timeframe. I also tell them that they need to make the decision to come to EK based on a 7 year upgrade. :ouch: Hopefully they listen.

TP

[tic]

Don
Tks for the explaination. I know lots of guys in (F/O's), Capt's too, in EK. I do not want to jump ahead of them re DEC. Actually, I'm quite happy where I am in GF. Generally speaking, I get treated pretty well. All the best to all of you. I hope the goal-posts, don't change too much.

[4legsaday]

for the interesting Thread so far.

[Trashed Aviator]

Dont forget you can probably remove at least 1 to 2 aircraft for maintenance daily on each fleet so its probably closer to 9 crews.

[donpizmeov]

Rambo,

I think your friend missunderstood what he was told. I think its 18mths for an accellerated command. And even then it only happens if no other 777 Fo is at the 3yrs point and ready to go.

So if you want to make a bit of cash. See if your friend is willing to make a bet on his command time. From the numbers shown on this thread, it would seem that those that joined at the beginning of 2005 might get a command in 2013. And that is still dependent on how many DECs they get in the mean time.

So if your friend is joining on the idea of a quick command, he may be disapointed. If he is joining because he likes sand, and has an allegy to sleep, he might do ok.

Don

[davidletterman]

Well then, perhaps all F/Os should kindly request to be upgraded in line by seniority and not jump the cue in an open act of solidarity with all their mates...

ha ha ha ha ha ha....didn't think so...

[typhoonpilot]

.....will be 6 months ,as a friend of mine was told at his interview.......
My friend has 7950 tt and 2200 command 737 and was told he would get a 777 command by december 2006 and he starts in about may as 777 F/O.

If your friend joins in May the earliest he would be eligible for a command would be after 18 months of service, or 1000 hours on type in Emirates, whichever is later. So the earliest he could get a command is November, 2007. Then it would only happen if there are no other qualifed pilots ahead of him. He may get lucky and be in a gap where there are no other qualifed pilots around Nov, 2007, or he may not. Many Airbus F.O.s fall into the later category. Even though they qualify for Accelerated, and in some cases DEC, they are waiting much longer than 18 months.

As I said earlier in this thread, DO NOT LISTEN TO HR IN REGARDS TO UPGRADE TIME FRAME !!

Typhoonpilot

[Toad Hall]

EK will lie lie and lie again in order to try and recruit pilots morale is at an all time low most pilots are looking elsewhere for a job in the 1st world.
I would say to anyone thinking of joining talk to anyone who has been in EK more than a year you will soon be put off.

[gl69]

Well then, perhaps all F/Os should kindly request to be upgraded in line by seniority and not jump the cue in an open act of solidarity with all their mates...


David Letterman you do realize that you are talking to pilots don't you? In no other profession is the "I got mine" mentality more prevalent than in ours. Look at all the DECs that are willing to come to Emirates.

[ursopilot]

"In no other profession is the "I got mine" mentality more prevalent than in ours. "
When have we joined the "pilot profession"? That does not exist period. We are white collar workers and you get what you deserve by jumping in front of colleagues for upgrade, working on your days off, taking accelerated command jobs, DEC, whatever is good for you no matter if it is professional or not. This is just how it is. This is a grown up world and you have to adapt. Money talks and bu*****T walks. We all got hurt in this business at one point or and other. You have to be street smart and be sure you are making the right choice of career. Luck is a big factor. Right timing is paramount. Right place right moment. No more. Not smarter, not better. C'mon guys, get serious for once and don't say you are professionals like Doctors, Dentists, and all the "real professionals" that have been approved legally. You have to know where you stand in this new world. Could be better, could be much worst. Anyway...Whatever! :ok: Can't believe I posted on pprune...

[Yossarian]

Are you telling me that no-one else in any other field is as cut throat as we are? Having witnessed some corporate reshuffles in an e-company, I can promise you that there is a significant amount of back-stabbing and get-me-some going on there too. We are not unique. Everyone has some sort of personal priority list, and you will find that doing what you can for your family is usually quite high up there.

Are you honestly saying that you would turn down a position out of seniority if it benefitted you and your family?

This is particularly true of the expat, but that should be no surprise. Very few leave their home country to benefit their work mates. They leave for a reason.......extra money, quick promotion etc etc.

[fullforward]

Point made, Youssa. Sad, but true, no illusions or childish moaning.

[616200]

On the latest newsletter found in the mailbox,I've found a very interesting quote from C P:
...In all cases,the Fleet is :actively reviewing potential F/O and they will always remain a top priority for U/G over DECs....
Any comment to this?:eek:

[145qrh]

Small round and spherical...:mad:

96 upgrades........108 DECS...........Need I say more?????????

[EGGW]

F/O's, top priority for upgrades http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sauer/angry-smiley-002.gif Yeah right, and in the same breadth, 108 DEC's. Boll*x, i think you were looking for 145qrh. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sauer/angry-smiley-036.gif

EGGW

[Murrenfan]

I work for a major airline, as a FO, and we current operate eight 777. From what I heard, at least 22 captains are going to dxb for the interview with EK. And some others have filled the online application already...
I just can't believe that emirates FOs have to put up with this in silence. You guys should do something...
Mfan.

[turtleneck]

i said it before: beam some airbus skippers to the 777, as it was planned earlier. they'd complete conversion much quicker than dec's, filling the gaps to the company's needs on time. their gap can be filled easily with upgrades, the airbus sim's not so busy as no a/c arrive and qualified f/o's are in abundance. their consequential gaps can be filled with new f/o's, they're easier to recruit on the market than dec's of the quality we need.
don't believe the **** management tells us: this solution is more viable, quicker and cheaper in the end, any second grade student can come up with the math's. if they don't want to do it, there must be a reason. i suspect incompetence by short sighted beancounters of known origin.ttn

[millerscourt]

Murrenfan What would you have these EK F/O's do?

Working for a major airline you are protected by Unions and Labour Rules of Seniority etc whereas once you leave the protected shores of UK Euroland,Oz etc you have no rights. The only thing that Pilots in expat airlines can do is to vote with their feet which is easier said than done for the majority who have burnt their bridges when leaving their old jobs and would have to start at the bottom of a seniority list back home in most cases.

I have voted with my feet several times over the years but as a Captain it is far easier until you reach a certain age!!:{

[Murrenfan]

You're right, but as far as I understand there must be a channel of conversation with your management where ideas should come up. Turtleneck gave you guys an excellent solution. Why not to bring this up to management? Mfan

[BigGeordie]

Murrenfan, you've never worked in the Middle East, have you?:(

[Maxx Motoring]

Murrenfan,

You're obviously a Delta pilot, I'm furloughed from another major carrier there, and there are about 20 other of us Americans here as well.

It may seem hard to believe, but there is no two way comunication here what-so-ever between the management and the pilot group. The management holds a meeting once a year which is basically a policy cram-down, and if you don't like it leave type of inuendo.

Think about it, it's a airline managers dream here, no pesky unions to worry about representing the pilot group. They change policies here at-will always to the further detrament of the pilot group.

Those 22 Delta Captains that you say are coming here had better check with a couple of line pilots here to get the whole story before commiting. Don't get me wrong, it would be great to have more Americans to fly with here, but it would be best if they came knowing the full story.

A couple questions they might want to ask a line pilot, but not necessarily ask at the interview.

1. How did the company handle the pilots involved in the Jo-berg incident?

2. Since the memo came out a few months back that overhauled our pay sceme from a credit based one, to pay for only scheduled block hours flown, has that rendered any of your vacation time worthless?

3. Do I have the opportunity to move if I don't like my issued villa?

4. What is the companies policy on Captains discression for extending duty time? Can you already go into discression before blocking out at home base?

5. What's the corporate culture like with DEC's coming in here at a higher pay rate than the actual instructor pilots that are training them, and what will it be like relying on the FO to help me get into all these god-forsaken places when he's knowing full well that your taking his paycheck?

If the guys are all okay with the answers to these questions, then welcome, can't wait to fly with y'all!;)

[BusyB]

"what will it be like relying on the FO to help me get into all these god-forsaken places when he's knowing full well that your taking his paycheck?"

Comments like that don't do you any credit!

[pintofstella]

2 more airbus captains resigned today!!!! plenty more to come according to the chat around the suitcases.

keep recovering, more jobs else where, plenty around!!

[ratpoison]

Pinto,
Are these two in addition to the two already on the portal ???
Rat

[shawarma]

rosters not out, 6 days left of planned life. average 8 days off.you wount need more days off, as the new york flights are allways full, so no going home anyway. you'll fly with collegues who believe that recent historical events were created by the fbi??? one more question you may want to ask the guys that have allready taken the leap across " how are you treated if you are involved in a difference of opinion on the flight deck"

[411A]

>> ...how are you treated if you are involved in a difference of opinion on the flight deck<<

Rather easy for the Commander...he is always right and if the copilot doesn't like it, he can go and complain to the head shed.

Now, why would anyone think differently, I wonder?:E

[davidletterman]

What is an upgrade?

:yuk:

[donpizmeov]

Some are more equal than others 411. It depends on the nationality of the FO as to who is correct it would seem.

[Murrenfan]

Not everyone is like you 411...There are a lot of captains that treat their FOs with respect and professionalism...not like in your old times. Mfan

[gl69]

411 now I know how the cockpit was handled on the 707 and the Connie. I was not around that long ago but I heard stories about the domineering captain back in the good ole days of aviation. You must have been quite a catch for your FOs. In the days before pref bid it must have been tough for "your" FOs to bid away from you. Today all we have to do is put 1000 points avoid flying with old, grumpy, ass$%#@ captain and our month would be okay.

Max motoring good points all. Don't forget to tell your Air Bubba buddies that if they do decide to go home more than once a year it will cost them an arm and a leg to travel on their own airline. I am talking in the neighborhood of $600 per person. Criminal. Also be sure to tell all the Captains there not to come as DECs.

[Payscale]

If A380 FOs have to upgrade on the A330, is that considered a transition upgrade. Hence 6 months in the RHS and all the jazz?

[Streamline]

Youssa


You can not use the “my family” excuse. This has nothing to do with it as any bachelor would do the same.

We are slowly but surely going into the direction where Seniority is of old age.

If the mayors in Europe would open their companies for DEC, some would be in trouble very quickly.

There is a shortage on the market and who get’s them first has them.

[Blue Thunder 1]

Hi,
Anybody knows how a Command upgrade for an FO with less than 12 months in the company being called? this is a way way faster than an accelerated upgrade, and its happening right now. I think in a way, it should be written somewhere.

BT1

[Warlock2000]

Can you rewrite that post again when you're off the juice? :confused:

[330 Man]

F/O's on the Boeing who are DEC qualified are being offered upgrades in less than a year. Meanwhile F/O's who are DEC qualified but are on the bus have been left behind. Go figure!

330 Man

[Blue Thunder 1]

Can you rewrite that post again when you're off the juice? :confused:


My sincere apology,i tend to forget that i've been drugging myself lately. Mine was just a matter of question,thanks.

BT1

[CK2]

According to this link
http://www.skynet24.com/jobs/opportunities_for_captains_and_first_officers_735.html
the DEC requirements have been dropped considerably. It doesn't say so on the official EK website yet, however I would not be very surprised if that is just the start to what they will (need) to do to avoid their planes being parked.
Let's see where the other requirements go down to. Trainers, you're looking at more work...

[Zomp]

Emirates offers unparalleled opportunities for ambitious pilots to advance their careers and fly the world’s most modern aircraft on a rapidly expanding route network. Our future plans will see an unprecedented delivery cycle of one new aircraft per month until 2012, resulting in a doubling of our current fleet size.

Essential to our ongoing success will be the employment of high quality pilots who will thrive in a truly international team environment, living in Dubai, a modern cosmopolitan city offering one of the most desirable lifestyles in the world.

Outstanding opportunities currently exist for First Officers with Emirates. We are also seeking experienced Captains for the Boeing 777 fleet. Preference for Direct Entry Captain positions will be given to candidates who are type rated on Boeing Glass Cockpit aircraft.

We offer job security, excellent career prospects and a competitive tax-free remuneration package, which includes accommodation, education assistance for children, comprehensive medical insurance and generous end of service benefits.



Qualifications
Requirements for the position of Captain- B777:

• A minimum of 8,000 hours total flying time
• 3,000 command hours on aircraft above 55 tonnes
• 4,000 hours flown in multi-crew, multi-engine jet or turbo prop aircraft with MTOW of 10 tonnes or more, as P1 or P2
• Preference will be given to candidates with Boeing EFIS experience who will be eligible to undertake a short transition course
• ICAO ATPL
• Must be a current Captain
• First Officers qualified as Cruise Captains do not meet the Direct Entry Captain requirements
• Applicants must be available to join before their 56th birthday and should have experience commensurate with age
• English language fluency (written and verbal comprehension)

Requirements for the position of First Officer

• A minimum of 4,000 hours total flying time
• 2,000 hours flown in multi-crew, multi engine jet aircraft experience
• ICAO ATPL
• Applicants must be less than 49 years on joining
• English language fluency (written and verbal comprehension)
• Experience commensurate with age

[dr.berzel]

It won't change the Trainer's workload..
But it might be the igniter for the explosives existing in EK's pilots pool.
Good luck, Emirates!

[MR8]

This is really getting worse every day.
No communication from management at all, not on new routes, aircraft deliveries/changes in deliveries, and worst of all, apparent change in recruitment criteria.

Imagine the hypotetical guy who joined two weeks ago as a F/O, hoping for a fast track, who now seems to have been able to get in as a DEC... lol

But far more worse of are especially the guys on airbus. Most of them are looking at way passed 4 years for a command (3,5 to start the course now, but there was a huge recruitment boom on airbus about 2 to 3 years ago, so time will increase) A lot of them would have had the DEC criteria if they didn't come and help EK out 3 years ago.

This must be about the poorest management I have ever seen... but what do you expect with the chief resigned, the 'subchief' getting retired and TCAS, well, what is he doing exactly? Is he sick, or maybe dead?

Anyhow, I won't be in CBC for the next days (lucky me..) but I would love to see the reactions when this goes on the advalvas... Maybe that's why they suddenly 'protected' the thing with a glass wall.. ;)

Anyone with enough balls to raise a question at the financial con meeting next wednesday?

Truly disappointed... AGAIN!!!

MR8

[EGGW]

ZOMP. Just been on the EK Groupcareers website, just the normal 10K requirement for DEC's. Have you been fiddling with the figures :p or did i miss somethinbg, more likely :{

EGGW

[montencee]

According to this link
http://www.skynet24.com/jobs/opportunities_for_captains_and_first_officers_735.html
the DEC requirements have been dropped considerably. It doesn't say so on the official EK website yet, however I would not be very surprised if that is just the start to what they will (need) to do to avoid their planes being parked.
Let's see where the other requirements go down to. Trainers, you're looking at more work...

You missed somethinbg.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

What about the F/Os with 10,000 plus jet hours.........................:mad:

[MR8]

Scooter, I know a few of them, that's F/O's with more then 10000hrs.
For them it's the normal upgrade order, i.e.

1. normal F/O criteria (+6000hrs +3yrs)
2. accelerated F/O criteria (+8000hrs, +2000hrs heavy command, +18 months)
3. DEC criteria (+10000hrs, ... would this change to 8000 as well???)

So, they're caught by the order of upgrade, there are plenty of guys on the bus with more then 3 years waiting for their command, so group 1 is providing the upgrades. Group 2 & 3 are only applicable when no one in 1 is suitable.

These guys have more experience then some DEC's, have been in the company for a few years, but nevertheless get bypassed by some :mad: from outside.

I cannot see how they can justify this, but then again, they won't, not even try to..

Disgusted :yuk:

MR8

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Surely the 3 year Airbus F/Os can now go 777 left seat, as the 6 month rule has been dropped for all.

[SecurID]

No communication from anyone, no one knows what the real picture is, morale at an even lower level than this time last year, an unprecedented level of unhappy pilots etc, etc. Me thinks it's time for another BIG meeting. :ugh:

[EGGW]

I hear that the daft rule for Accelerated Transitions will be dropped plus maybe regular transition upgrades as well.
The company have been getting generally abysmal candidates for DEC's lately, there are some shocking stories told by TRE's who do the SIM rides.
There are plenty of us with 3000+ command time on heavy jets at EK, we are a known quantity, use us!!

Maybe the company has smelt the coffee, or is that shisha round these parts :p Then again maybe not :{ :{ :{

EGGW

[Aircav]

Guys,

I hate to tell you, but the entry requirements for DEC's has now been changed on the recuirtment website. Yes it has gone down to 8000hrs.

As usual the management have not shown the people making money for them any consideration by letting us know first. What a surprise????:*

I guess I will just keep shut and soldier on for another X years, whilst I baby sit someone with less experience than me.:yuk:

[ernestkgann]

More evidence that no one in this company thinks. Do they reckon that the difference between 8-10 000 hours will bring the DECs?
All that it will do is turn off more FOs who now prepare themselves for babysitting duties and the company will have to cope with CAs with no history in the airline.
More evidence of the EK management's shotgun approach to their work. Nothing thought out for more than the next ten minutes, nothing about long term implications, in short no chance all round.

[EGGW]

However, if you make the DEC current requirements that are now out there, i would be prepared for an e-mail/phone call if you are in EK.
At least its an acknowledgement that they screwed up with the original "plan". It is good news that EK will have to use the best guys for Captains, their own F/O's :ok:

I understand that there is a lot of chaos in Flt Ops at the moment, one sacking i've heard about, plus much else.

EGGW.

[Mack Tuck]

Was this the disciplinary dismissal alluded to in another thread last week? Whats the story then?

[donpizmeov]

I guess the guys that have already done the three years (on both fleets) will get the calls . And then if needed, anyone who may be accellerated, right EGGW? Wouldn't it only be when that happens, that an acknowledgement that the original plan was a screw up be made?
I'll believe it when I see it.

Don

[Aircav]

Can anyone remember TCAS making a case for the high upgrade requirements in one of the management propoganda leaflets (Fleet Update). I think he said something about safety and the Gulf Air crash. I guess my 10000+ and 2.5 years in EK makes me less safe than the 8000 unknown hours.

BUT the Bright Side, I guess if the goalposts can be lowered for new joiners they can be lowered for loyal staff. Get rid of the 3 year requirement as it only looks foolish in the light of the DEC debacle(Wide body only please to who knows what next week) and allow people in the company a fair crack of the whip. :eek: Whooops, sorry I had shisha for the 1st time and it has gone to my head. It will never happen because we are HERE and once in they don't really care.

And before anyone gets on their high horse about knowing it was at least 3 years to command, I know, but times are changing, just not for the people actually keeping the expansion going, which is my gripe. Just think about how many more unhappy campers there will be in a few months when the latest fiddle does not work and our beloved DEC's start getting offered even more money to join. Think it won't happen, watch this space!!!!!!!

Keep discovering:ooh:

[Jam-Yo]

I've been reading all the posts here and it seems that EK is not a very good place to work at. At least not at the moment. Can you guys post something good. I am with one of the two US carriers that is bankrupt(don't want to mention which) and I am considering leaving. EK sounds to good to be true! Is that the truth... Are u guys having fun? Are the FAs good looking and 'loose'? Are you guys having 'LAYovers' instead of overnights;-)? GIve me the juicy stuff!!!!

LAter

[ruserious]

OK, Jam Yo, here goes a mixed bag of good and not terribly bad

The company makes lots of profit
It pays your wages on time
You might get up to 42 days leave a year
You get to request all your flights, but......
Many of the FA's are young and great looking (hope you have deep pockets)
Average age of FA's is less than 25
Average iq about ..... :}
They are available for fun, in Dubai
But rarely down route.... Too tired, slam click
Unless of course you are under 35, and slightly cute, then they will be all over you

[Payscale]

Jay-Lo....eh....stay home!:hmm:

[davidletterman]

EK cabin crew good looking???? Ha ha ha, you guys sure know how to wear those beer goggles!!

[ironbutt57]

the difference between a dog and a fox is a six-pack....you got one of the right passports...you will have no problem...:ok:

[hotstart54]

Life doesn't look too smart in EK then from what I read here, and have passed on from buddies. Why is it that with a shortage of qualified pilots around the planet we are still treated collectively so badly by our employers?

EK looks as though it is very short, have they considered opening a London base or do you have someone who is looking to feed his buddies in from the 'States? If they grasp the London nettle they will get quite a few well qualified and experienced people from BAW who are sitting in the bottom third of our list looking skyward through a bunch of youngsters. Their prospects are not brilliant (though they knew that when they joined) and they are 'hot to trot' now that they are type rated and experienced. Frying pan into the fire? The very prospect of this must make F/O's seethe, it would me.

'The grass is always greener.'

[Earl Hadlea]

In the thread here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=225982&page=2, New Tomcat alleges that many were offered a salary of 38,000 Dhs.

This needs to be clarified once and for all, because Emirates has specifically denied (in writing) that this is the case.

Either Emirates management is telling "porkies", or New Tomcat is fudging the truth.

Over to you New Tomcat to substantiate your side of the story and demonstrate in writing that your figures are correct. If you were indeed offered 38,000 Dhs, did it include a component of overtime or was it a base salary? Who specifically made the offer ?

I think all of us are very keen to find out the truth with this, as I know a lot of us believed what management told us when they refuted this figure. :confused:

handing over..................

[Payscale]

Whoever Tomcat is you will probably have to wait a while before someone from management answers here.
36000 sounds right. Its 27000 that sounds wrong. 7% just doesnt cut it. Sorry, but the living cost is not following the salary. Wait 6 months and you will see people leave. It takes about that time to get a new job and resign. And that is just as they expect to start training for the A380. DEC will line up for that one...boy oh boy...we live in interesting times. If you widen the scope a little the US/Iran thing might just cock things up for us :cool:

[ernestkgann]

Interesting to note that the contract sim instructors are being paid US$15 000/month.

[max AB]

And thats to do 20 sims per month! Actually when I think about it....

[propaganda]

Guy's are negotiating their own personal deals....and there's no point whinging about it...nothing will be done.....NO union protection to safeguard existing loyal hard working troops...It's time the army marched.:ok:

[Riker]

I have heard that EK has been picking up experienced Capts and FOs from US airlines like Northwest, United and Delta and putting them into PIC positions on the 777 and A330/40. Clearly, most of them don't or have not read any of these Pprune posts related to EK. Evidently they were swooned at well-attended "road shows" in the States and there were many yanks interested in moving all the way to the desert and even resigning their positions at these carriers.

I can understand why a Northwest or Delta pilot near retirement age (mid to latter 50s) might be interested in giving EK a shot (especially as a 777 DEC), but when I hear that 45 or 50 year old pilots are willing to quit their current positions at their recovering airlines and head to EK it makes me sick. I wish them luck.

What promises (other than 777 DEC positions) were they given that would be so "enticing" for them to leave the States and trek all the way to the super high-inflation capital of the world? What deals are they getting beyond PIC position that others aren't getting? Why would you leave the protection that a union can afford and move to an airline where your terms can change on a dime at any time? Are they promising them A380 captain slots too?

[filejw]

While I haven't finished the process so far the answer to your questions is none, ALPA is a paper tiger and no.:O

[IXNAT]

No special deals have been offered, other than what is posted. Starting pay is the same for all, including if one was current and qualed on the 777. No difference. Retired pilots from Delta have lost all if not most of their retirements and will soon lose it all as Delta terminates their pension plan. Left over lump sums will be left intact if a job can be found. Very few active Delta guys, maybe a handful are leaving Delta to go to EK. Cannot speak of other legacy carriers. Probably job security for a few years is the enticement. Conditions, except for living in DUbai, seem very similar to what many have done in the past. I know I have flown a thousand hours for the past four or five years, 900 seems like a break. Most don't have kids in the house, most were probably former military and have lived in different places around the world in base housing.

Hope this helps.

[Riker]

No special deals have been offered, other than what is posted. Starting pay is the same for all, including if one was current and qualed on the 777. No difference. Retired pilots from Delta have lost all if not most of their retirements and will soon lose it all as Delta terminates their pension plan. Left over lump sums will be left intact if a job can be found. Very few active Delta guys, maybe a handful are leaving Delta to go to EK. Cannot speak of other legacy carriers. Probably job security for a few years is the enticement. Conditions, except for living in DUbai, seem very similar to what many have done in the past. I know I have flown a thousand hours for the past four or five years, 900 seems like a break. Most don't have kids in the house, most were probably former military and have lived in different places around the world in base housing.

Hope this helps.

I am glad to hear it works for you. However, I have heard about younger pilots who probably have 15 years left until retirement who are quitting US legacy carriers for EK slots. Sure, we all know that the US legacy carriers have been on the brink of extinction for awhile, but they will rebuild. Nobody expects Delta or UAL to just disappear. My concern is that, based on UK friends who are at EK now, the Yank pilots are given an impression that EK is the long-term career solution they have been looking for.

What sort of spin job have the EK managers done to attract younger US legacy pilots away from their current positions? If you read these posts on PPrune(obviously with a grain of salt - there is a bit of drama in most posts), you will note the points related to excessive flight hours, lack of days off, racial bias, seemingly changing terms and endless promises that are not kept. No airline in perfect - but, EK is an airline where pilots have few rights. Things can change on a dime. Again, I can't understand why a pilot at United or Northwest would give up a career (with 15 years to go) and move to EK. Sure, you could argue that United and Northwest could eventually liquidate - but that really is highly unlikely. Any tax-free benefits you gain in Dubai and cancelled out by the stratospheric inflation rates - it ain't as great as it sounds.... It's a gamble and I hope that it pays out for them in the long run.

[bafanguy]

However, I have heard about younger pilots who probably have 15 years left until retirement who are quitting US legacy carriers for EK slots.
.

I suppose anything is possible these days, but I'd like to see actual documentation of just how many are actually doing that.

[filejw]

To give you an idea of age,in my group of four it was 3 mid forty's and one mid fifty's. The older guy is the only one with a retirement from at US carrier...:)

[Yossarian]

Well, with the likes of Captain America, or BM, publishing such glowing articles about how he left his airline to join one where he is treated like a VP and gets to stay on the "concierge floor", who could possibly stay away?

Maybe, as they say, bullspit does baffle brains.

[EK Pilot]

EK is an airline where pilots have few rights

Sorry, but you are wrong. EK is an airline where pilots have NO rights.

There is no recourse, there is no avenue to challenge policy changes, there is no ear to hear when you have something to say, there is no one there for you. At the end of the day you are on your own.

The happiest amongst our group have embraced that and know it to be true, they then get on with their lives and take from EK what they can. Others, me included, think that the employer has a duty of care. Naive maybe, but the employer/employee relationship should be symbiotic. EK and Dubai inc. are just running the corporations on greed and the values that once existed no longer hold true. Maybe that is the same the world over now and I empaphise with those that have sufferred losses of pensions etc. But you cannot compare a US legacy carrier with the the fastest growing and one one of the most profitable airlines in the world.

With that in mind, come. Come and join us, join in the fun, swell the ranks and let the managers know that they have done their best and attracted more quality candidates. But never let those same managers know that they enticed you with promises and gold. They will deny everything and say that it was ultimately your choice to be here.

But also know that everything that has been written here is true. Somewhat emotionally charged, but nevertheles true. Never before has so much information been made available to you to make a choice to leave home and set up in the UAE. You have everything at your fingertips to make an informed decision. Remember, though, that once you leave home it is very hard to go back.

[IXNAT]

I agree to the wonderment of why someone at the US legacies would leave with 10 plus years left. Enough time to rebuild some retirement and have a known quality of life. But I do have to say, that there have been no promises made other than: here is the position you will fly, you will fly around 900plus hours, we will provide housing etc, etc etc. No great promises, no out of country basing, no promis of future great riches, basically, "here's the contract, take it or leave it". And I am sure a lot of the dealings with the company will be that way. But here in the US there has been incredible tv shows, front page newspaper articles, and magazine articles on Dubai.

[filejw]

I second what INXAT said. No gold offered, in fact it sounds like lots of hard work..But EK PILOT"duty of care"?Any pilot coming from the US will still be laughing 24hrs after he reads that statement.The only thing we have seen is GREED and we are used to it...

[Riker]

I suppose anything is possible these days, but I'd like to see actual documentation of just how many are actually doing that.

A good friend is a flight instructor in the Orlando area. He spoke directly with two pilots in their 40s from a major US airline who are leaving for Emirates - each with roughly 15 years remaining. Packing up the entire family (kids still in school) and taking them to Dubai... Why not just leave for a stable US airline like Southwest or Air Tran? Why leave the country and union protection? Again, the tax-free salary offer is negated by super-inflation. I wish them well but it surprises me that people would make this decision - but that is just my opinion.

[remlap]

I am a 47 year old Captain at DAL who is seriously considering flying overseas. Will it be EK, I don't know. FedEx will not interview active pilots at legacy carriers. Rumor has it, SWA won't interview legacy carrier captains because we do not share the "cowboy" culture they encourage for flight operations.

I don't harbor any illusions that EK will be perfect. Far from it. I think the rostering is onerous and the pay substandard. At this time I plan to stay at my carrier until I am 50. Upon reaching 50 I will be fully eligible for whatever remains of my retirement.

I don't think the downward spiral for the legacy carriers has come to an end. My union is a union in name only. While true the Company can't just take, they get whatever they ask for. I would be surprised if I finish my flying career for DAL. The outlook for my airline is simply not that good. One of the legacy carriers will have to shut their doors due to overcapacity. It is just a matter of time.

I hear all these posts about inflation and going to the web it seems that prices in the UAE are not significanly more than I currently pay for products and services in the US. The fact that the income would be tax free is very attractive. Also, by moving overseas into paid housing, it allows me to sell my home and invest the proceeds in an investment vehicle that will net greater returns.

By my company terminating my pension it has removed any incentive to stay. My services are available to the highest bidder.

[Riker]

I am a 47 year old Captain at DAL who is seriously considering flying overseas. Will it be EK, I don't know. I don't harbor any illusions that EK will be perfect. Far from it. I think the rostering is onerous and the pay substandard. At this time I plan to stay at my carrier until I am 50. Upon reaching 50 I will be fully eligible for whatever remains of my retirement.

I don't think the downward spiral for the legacy carriers has come to an end. My union is a union in name only. While true the Company can't just take, they get whatever they ask for. I would be surprised if I finish my flying career for DAL. The outlook for my airline is simply not that good. One of the legacy carriers will have to shut their doors due to overcapacity. It is just a matter of time.

I hear all these posts about inflation and going to the web it seems that prices in the UAE are not significanly more than I currently pay for products and services in the US. The fact that the income would be tax free is very attractive. Also, by moving overseas into paid housing, it allows me to sell my home and invest the proceeds in an investment vehicle that will net greater returns.

By my company terminating my pension it has removed any incentive to stay. My services are available to the highest bidder.

Remlap,

I appreciate what you are saying. I guess I have heard so much about these "road shows" and I have heard so many people talk about how EK has not lived up to its agreements, etc. that I am somewhat skeptical about any offer they provide. Everyone knows EK is desparate to hire pilots for two reasons: 1) fleet growth and 2) attrition rates. I have talked to former EK 777 pilots who returned to the UK to fly for Easyjet - and it was not due to a dislike of warm weather.

At the end of the day, it is your decision. But I would just caution US pilots to enter these agreements with their eyes WIDE open. Seek multiple opinions first - including those from existing EK pilots. Perhaps the Delta pilots could seek out some EK pilots at JFK and ask questions directly (just a thought) - EK serves JFK twice daily from Dubai. Always VERIFY EK's own claims and realize that you are no longer protected by US labor laws (or union protection). Trust but verify...

Remlap, I have heard good things about Singapore Cargo. Although Singapore might not be as appealing from a living standpoint, I have heard that they don't change contract terms on you. Plus, you would probably fly back to the States more often than you would with EK. Good luck!

[Yossarian]

filejw has hit the nail on the head. Dxb is built on GREED! Every aspect of life in the sandbox shows this to be true. The powers that be saw that oil in Dxb would not last forever and decided wisely to diversify. Tourism seemed like a good option with mass development and when that proved able to produce massive dividends, everyone hopped on the bandwagon. Now we sit in a city with vastly overpriced housing, hotels, amenities.... Transport links over-stretched, basic resources like power and water at the limit and more growth forecast.

Who is going to come up with the next scheme to "attract" investors? It would be a good start if initial grand plans like the Palm were produced. So far all we have is grand promises, cheap, self-destructive housing and traffic jams.

Dxb must be one of the most selfish cities I have ever experienced. Try running a business or failing that, try driving on the roads. It is all about ME. Noone gives a spit for anyone else; more so than most places I have ever seen.

This place is busy strangling the golden goose. If they are not careful they will soon have the most expensive, abandoned, man made object visible from space.

[ironbutt57]

Well guys, do the American newbies a big huge favor..pls...My personal history was...**** on by ALPA as a "commuter dog" early 80's hired as a CO scab in 1983...chickened out and sent them a "no thanks letter" my colleagues who did show up are "forgiven 777 capts ALPA members" now....got hired by another "legacy carrier in 1987...who promptly struck in support of the very machinists who gave us pencil-whipped pieces of crap to fly...on probation...out the door...my classmates who went to work by instruction of our local ALPA turned up on the ....u guessed it...master scab list....the next APLA carrier furloughed me out of sim...I came to the Gulf and never looked back......so..the moral of the story is..these guys have no idea what expat flying is about..so educate as opposed to ostracize...they do understand solidarity, or else they wouldn't be here..think about it...nobody can afford to play the "nationality game" here give 'em a break...ok???:ok:

[helen-damnation]

The info I have is that the US roadshows are getting people who are already on the EK lists.
In other words, there are few new people turning up.
Not as much interest as the company had hoped.
The problem is not the DEC's, it's the management.:ugh:

[ironbutt57]

Figured that....anyway....whatever attracts the "yanks" has previously attracted others..yes??? Let the chips fall where they may...what goes around comes around...

[theidler]

Heard that there's a bunch of guys at EK, best described as a large minority or maybe a small majority, who reckon that the only way of sorting out their problems is to let the community at large know whats going on.

Searches on this forum show that in the last few years EK has messed with salary structure, seniority lists and work schedules with zero consultation. Take it or leave it. Not to mention rampant inflation in Dubai, carnage on the roads and a legal system that amounts to guilty until proven innocent.

Don't suppose that anyone joining EK as a DEC would be considered to be crossing lines drawn in the sand.

Or would they?

[ironbutt57]

Well put....who"s drawing the line....they will not convince those already living the "gulf experience" and that's who EK is recruiting in earnest....cant rule out the possiblility myself....convince me....

[ironbutt57]

So if they are so keen to recruit pilots, why dont they seek out folks already here and recruit them....or are they afraid of rejection???

[theidler]

ib57

Reckon you could cross the line. But why would you want to?

Like moving from the Bronx to the Lower East Side, much the same problems, almost the same place.

[mensaboy]

Having now met potential DECs travelling on the NY flights as well as a few now in Dubai and one persistent and rather annnoying F/O in the crew room in KIX, I have reached some conclusions. Yes this is based on small numbers but I also have heard rather consistent tales from individuals flying with DEC's as well.
It has become clear we are not receiving the 'cream of the crop' in any respect.
When you walk away from a conversation with a potential employee of your company and think to yourself, 'this is one ODD individual' OR 'he's a blatant liar', you have to wonder about the recruiting policies. Clearly those individuals who many would consider as someone great to work with, competent and a general bonus to the company are not that interested in coming to EK. Recruiting is obviously scraping the bottom of the barrel with these latest additions. I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THESE DEC's REPRESENT THE AVERAGE AMERICAN PILOT!!!!!!!! Then again, considering the low percentage of eligible DEC's and the high numbers available, I think I am correct in my assessment that those coming to EK are not representative of the US.
Take Captain America as an example. How on earth could someone of his character squeak thru the recruitment process and then be allowed and even encouraged to behave as he has?
I hate to label any group but the vast majority of DEC's i'm met from the USA are not decent people. And just to clarify my POV, I have no bone to pick with the Yanks, aside from voting in GWB...... TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!, but aside from that i have alot of respect for many of them. I also have a lot of disrespect for SOME of them but that might be said of any nationality. It just seems to me that we are receiving the worst of the lot with our present policies.
Take a look at the big picture. We have a extremely small percentage of potential DEC's coming from the USA at the moment. These few have decided that in spite of every indication that life here is not as advertised, they have still elected to come. Some are even giving up employment that most can only dream about, totally out of fear of the future in my opinion. And based on my observations the ones i have met have generally been somewhat quirky to say the least. (no, i don't for one minute think i am always correct in character assessment) But I have yet to meet an American DEC who i thought was a good guy. I have met several Yanks at EK who i think are really nice, personable, competent and have integrity, but not one of those has been a DEC. It just makes me wonder.
Referring back to the United F/O in KIX.......... this is one individual who i found to be totally out in left field in all respects in his life. This became apparent after about the first 5 minutes in a long and arduous 2 hours. Clearly i was not alone as his fellow colleagues shunned him and my fellow colleagues wouldn't even talk to him after a while. I truly felt bad for this person and tried my best to give him only facts about EK, without any personal opinions, but his insistent belief in EK as his future paradise was just a prelude to those DEC's i've recently met.
I have no heartache if anyone wishes to slag me on my point of view. I only hope i'm wrong, but i sincerely believe we are receiving the dregs of the universe as DEC's from the good ole USA at the moment. Oh who am i kidding, i'm totally right. Over the past year and a half and by all indications from those intending to come here, EK has truly reached a low point.
Part of me wishes them to come along and truly discover for themselves, but then i realize that when you live in a bizarro dream world for most of your life, you might actually enjoy yourself here. I'm sorry to sound so venomous but honestly, give your head a shake if you are considering coming to EK as a DEC.
Not only will you screw over all F/O's but you will over time realize that there are not many colleagues here who will endeavour to spend time with you, make you feel welcome or in any respect make your life happier here. I have never in my life come across such a huge percentage of my colleagues so opposed to one nationality, of one particular group, so unanimously. Feel free to take your lot in life with Captain American, but beware. What comes around goes around. The more that come, the more deep seeded and angry the sentiment will become.
I say this only for those decent individuals from the USA who have decided that life at EK is not for them, that you have made the correct decision. And to those future duds, who are on your way..... all i can say is........... BIG MISTAKE.
Flame away.

[helen-damnation]

I've only flown with one US DEC and he was a good guy.

No, it wasn't the ''Voice of America'' :mad: :mad: :yuk:

[kiwi_r4]

I'm absolutely positively sure Mensaboy is a reincarnation of Toad Hall.

[IXNAT]

Yo Mensaboy,

With a rant as long as yours, I have to wonder about your mental stability. Must be a real joy to share a cockpit with the likes of you. Who are you to make judgements on the abilities of the DEC's? Are they performing in a safe manner, using best practices and SOP required by the company? You know, when you slam a whole group of people, perhaps you should look inward and see if there isn't a little something going on inside of you. But on the other hand, if these guys are not performing up to the company standards, then you have a ligitimate gripe. Or is it they just won't buy a round for you at the bar?

[filejw]

Mensaboy,
Ever hear the story of a Mom watching her son march in the high school band and he is the only one out of step yet she say's "Look my son is the only one in step"?:eek:

[typhoonpilot]

I'l stay out of the whole American bashing part of this thread, but this statement needs a reply.

Sorry, but you are wrong. EK is an airline where pilots have NO rights.

There is no recourse, there is no avenue to challenge policy changes, there is no ear to hear when you have something to say, there is no one there for you. At the end of the day you are on your own.


This statement is just not true. EK pilots do have recourse. One pretty high profile incident that initially resulted in a demotion was over-turned on appeal. That person, with the help of his colleagues, used EK's own internal policies as part of the appeal.

I know I just said I'd stay out of the American bashing thing, but just can't seem to help it.

Mensaboy, you need to take chill pill. In any large group of people there is always going to be the 10 percent that aren't right. If you are pre-disposed to bigotry and racism when you run across one of the 10 percent you may make a snap judgement that all of that particular race, nationality, etc are bad. It is a mistake to judge people based on their race, nationality, or sex. Give each individual a chance. I'm sure 90% of Mensa members would agree :ok:


TP

[shaggin yoke]

before leaving EK I took over an aircraft from a DEC in Singapore. This individual had previously had only narrow body Short haul experience and was totally out of his depth. The last checklist completed was the descent checklist. I seems according to the FO (also a new joiner with 7 months on type) that the Captain and he were so far behind the drag curve that he did not have the capacity to dodge the CBs and fly the aircraft and do the checklists. Fair weather and a serviceable B777. Project this crew forward and imagine a dual hydralics failure out of Christchurch in poor weather.
EK is an accident waiting to happen. I agree with mensa and I know first hand, that the majority are struggling in their first year at EK to master the aircraft, routes and SOPs. By contrast the FOs at EK are amongst the best I have flown with. If I miss anything from EK it is the great pilots they have. Sadly along with the demise of the rest of the company that will no longer be true in the future.
As for americans, ask yourself this, if its so great in EK why do you think I left?
Also if you think you will save a red cent in Dubai on an EK salary you are very very mistaken. Those that are financialy secure joined in the good old days 15 or more years ago.
DECs are only a quick fix if quality can be assured and to get quality you must pay. The only pilots joining EK are joining because they have to. Just like those who stay.

Sorry forgot to take the pills with me.

[whossorrynow]

This statement is just not true. EK pilots do have recourse. One pretty high profile incident that initially resulted in a demotion was over-turned on appeal. That person, with the help of his colleagues, used EK's own internal policies as part of the appeal.

And this statement completely and deliberately misses the point being made by the author of the post it refers to.

[White Knight]

Got to agree with Helen-D, then again KB's the only Yank DEC chappie I've flown with. A very nice guy - a pleasure to fly with.

Can't say I've had the pleasure of BM's company yet:} :}

[IXNAT]

EK is an accident waiting to happen. I agree with mensa and I know first hand, that the majority are struggling in their first year at EK to master the aircraft, routes and SOPs. By contrast the FOs at EK are amongst the best I have flown with. If I miss anything from EK it is the great pilots they have. Sadly along with the demise of the rest of the company that will no longer be true in the future.
As for americans, ask yourself this, if its so great in EK why do you think I left?
.

Ok, let me see if I can add a little gas to the fire. At my last airline (pure seniority etc), if one's seniority could hold it, one could be a B737 copilot for YEARS and bid to fly MD11 captain. Never having flown a wide body, never having flown captain, never having flown any leg over one or two hours, this individual could in theory make it through sim training, muddle his way through OEs and be put on the line with a F/O that had been in the MD11 right seat for years, with a ton more experience flying that aircraft and the theater it operates in. Will the former B737 copilot be up to speed right away, will he be an expert at handling the big jet, will he know all the ins and outs of the theater? Probably not. Yes he would be senior to the experienced copilot, but in number only. So I am trying to see the difference (not an arguement for or against DECs) but we have all had to deal with a lessor experienced left seater in one manner or the other. Grow up boys and girls, and I thought my old airline had a bunch of whinners.

[Icebreaker]

Shagger,
I really can't accept your example as targeting the reason for not taking DECs. The only reason is seniority and familiarisation with the company ops.

As far as I am concerned, the only significant difference between a wide and narrow body is when you are taxiing it around. If the guy has done his type rating and passed his checks, he should have a good grasp on the differences.
In your example, the chap would have the same difficulties of dodging CB's, doing checklists etc as he would in a 737.

It would appear from your observation that the guy has had inadequate transition training and shouldn't have got through his line-check in the first place! (or else having a really bad day!) :hmm:

[145qrh]

I think the point you are missing IXNAT is that your f/o who gets wide body command is a known quantity to the company, years of sims, line-check's and general day to day feedback on personality and ability, not to mention familiarity with company SOP's.
Furthermore the example you mention has little or no bearing on DEC's at EK.

No-one , or at lest very few question DEC's ability or suitability when they come from a similar type of operation or type. It's when we get people of questionable background coming from not so regulated parts of the world who have a limited grasp of the English language ,and I don't think we need comment on where these people are coming from.....but Loco Easy and Ryan 737 skippers who become DEC's are not coming from the best background for long haul world-wide operations......

Time will tell, I just hope no-one here loses any loved ones when we find out ....

[montencee]

It would appear from your observation that the guy has had inadequate transition training and shouldn't have got through his line-check in the first place!

And there's the rub. Emirates network is so diverse it would take a year of training to get around it.

So some sad sack steps across the guy in the right seat and then needs his hand holding for the next year.

The Emirates F/Os do it, but they don't have to like doing it.

Can be quiet in the bar in the evening.

[sayed777]

U fly one jet u fly them all. Stick and rudder lads.That is all it maters. INSTINCTS. Seat of the pants. lads lets not forget we all are pilots, We like to fly, It is always flyable. Give it a wing and the best thrust to weight ratio it will fly and trust me we will fly it. This is what we like to do.... As far as the posts here i do agree we are also managing the flight deck and for that we need internal company experience on right seat for atleast 6 months to learn the ropes of company policies. So if i had to appoint DEC i would make them fly 6 months RHS and then upgrade them LHS....

[Riker]

U fly one jet u fly them all. Stick and rudder lads.That is all it maters. INSTINCTS. Seat of the pants. lads lets not forget we all are pilots, We like to fly, It is always flyable. Give it a wing and the best thrust to weight ratio it will fly and trust me we will fly it. This is what we like to do.... As far as the posts here i do agree we are also managing the flight deck and for that we need internal company experience on right seat for atleast 6 months to learn the ropes of company policies. So if i had to appoint DEC i would make them fly 6 months RHS and then upgrade them LHS....[/B]

But that's the problem. EK can't attract "good" yank pilots from the legacy carriers unless they are offered attractive DECs. EK is growing so fast and experiencing such a high level of attrition (at least from what I have heard) that these sorts of offers are being made. I doubt a US pilot working at a legacy would consider EK if only offered an FO position (even with the "promise" of upgrade after 6 months).

[kiwi_r4]

Quote from Mensaboy
you will over time realize that there are not many colleagues here who will endeavour to spend time with you, make you feel welcome or in any respect make your life happier here. I have never in my life come across such a huge percentage of my colleagues so opposed to one nationality, of one particular group, so unanimously. Feel free to take your lot in life with Captain American, but beware. What comes around goes around. The more that come, the more deep seeded and angry the sentiment will become.

Boy oh boy, what is wrong with you Mensaboy?

I'm compelled to say you are one sad individual who is severely suffering from some kind of mental illness. Putting the DEC issue aside, I find it hard to believe someone can write crap like this. Anyone who would support the "Mensaboy" view, in my opinion, is an absolute retard.

Kiwi.

ps. Mensaboy, have you just failed your command upgrade? Just wondering.

[readytocopy]

I agree with IXNAT. But the problem we have here at EK are some pretty big egos in the LHS brought on by the compnay and the company culture. Apparently when you get to the LHS you have to know everything cause the guy in the RHS is "really not there". The way I look at it is if I have to memorize a book, I'd get my FO to remember half of the book and I the other half and then I would use his intel to tell me what I don't know.

I'll add to this post later.

[mensaboy]

I have yet to read a response from you that actually says something of consequence. You are sitting at home flying your 737 and apparently just having a whinge at anyone slagging EK. i'm totally surprised as most kiwi's i'm met are rather decent blokes. In the future, if you have anything of consequence to add to this forum,, please do so. If you have some insight, pls enlighten us.

If you were to have the misfortune of flying with individuals who are somewhat similar to our recent additiions at Ek, then pls tell me where I am wrong. Give us something that actually means anything!!

You are so typical of someone who has no idea of the gravity of our present situation. No one at EK wishes things to go badly in the future, except perhaps the very small minority. Go spend a few days flying with someone of clearly poor abilities, and a questionable past........... consistently......... and then make your judgement.

Apparently to EK, the latest additions of DEC's are acceptable. From my experiences on augmented flights and the comments from many capable, and in my opinion excellent F/O's........... this is not the reality. You might want to open your mind to the possibility that most recent DEC's are a bunch of wankers. These are also the same individuals with whom i golf, and to a man............. they are not only odd, but totally out in left field. And if you don't understand that expression............. they are completely messed up human beings. And yes.......... to make this clear, the vast majority have been Americans as of late. So if you think i have some strange aversion to Americans............ you are wrong. But i have an informed and realistic opinion of the latest Yanks to have come to Dubai.

How can i say this clearly enough........... hmmmmm .......... let me think. I would rather fly with the latest south american additions than with any recent USA additions. That is a fact.

I have nothing against the Yanks, but clearly, the bottom of the barrel has been reached. Come spend a few months and meet these clowns........ i'm sure that you would agree with me, in spite of your obvious lack of inexperience.

[kiwi_r4]

Hi Mensaboy/Toad Hall or whoever else you login as,

You're a bitter and twisted person.

Good luck.

Regards,

Kiwi.

PS, Keep your reply short and don't waste your precious time, I don't read past the first paragraph when its just utter crap.

[mensaboy]

Everything you state in your post is factually incorrect. Yet again another post that says nothing of consequence from kiwi. Your first two sentences are wrong. Your regards are not sincere, and your longest sentence is contradictory.
Me thinks thou dost protest too much about others being bitter.

Please attempt to write something worthwhile. I have no objections to us disagreeing at all. Its just difficult to respond to your posts that don't actually say anything.

By the way, if you don't like longer posts, then don't read them, and certainly don't take the time to respond especially with your childish and misdirected insults.

[Mack Tuck]

Kiwi,
You are an oddball.
Whilst you proclaim to be a proud born-and-bred NZer you clearly find it hard to keep away from the ME forum.
You sound suspiciously like an ex Ansett NZ pilot who has lost all his friends to the Gulf and is lonely; poor fellow.
Why not keep to the 'down under' forums. At least there your comments will have some modicum of validity.
Mack
p.s. I was looking for a 'loser' smiley but there isn't one; if there was it would have gone in place of this sentence.

[kiwi_r4]

Good morning,

Mensaboy, thanks for your post but my original assessment regarding you doesn't change. I am sincere because I think you need help.

Regards,

Kiwi.

[411A]

Not totally surprised of course, as few at EK haven't any idea about the old days, but indeed it might come as a surprise to a few that some of the original pilots at EK were American nationals, on the B727.
These folks were not especially liked by those that followed, mainly because they (the Americans) did not whine and moan at nearly every opportunity, as many of the Brits etc that followed.

For that reason alone I would expect that the American DEC's that arrive now, might well be resented.
However, those First Officers at EK now will simply have to carry on regardless, as they clearly have positively no input whatsoever on EK policy.

Nor, should they have.

In other words, tough beans guys, like it or lump it...it makes no difference whatsoever, and there is nothing you can do about it anyway.

Quiet in the bar, you say?
Who gives a damn?

Certainly not the DEC's.
To the Brits etc it might, but not to Americans.

[kiwi_r4]

Kiwi,
You are an oddball.
Whilst you proclaim to be a proud born-and-bred NZer you clearly find it hard to keep away from the ME forum.
You sound suspiciously like an ex Ansett NZ pilot who has lost all his friends to the Gulf and is lonely; poor fellow.
Why not keep to the 'down under' forums. At least there your comments will have some modicum of validity.
Mack
p.s. I was looking for a 'loser' smiley but there isn't one; if there was it would have gone in place of this sentence.


Thats rather harsh Mack. :oh: u.

PS. I'm guessing the VN DEC position didn't work out?

[montencee]

........that some of the original pilots at EK were American nationals, on the B727.
These folks were not especially liked by those that followed, mainly because they (the Americans) did not whine and moan at nearly every opportunity, as many of the Brits etc that followed.

Complete horsesh*t, as is often the case with 411A's post's.

Those Americans, with one exception, were well liked and well respected. The aforementioned exception left Emirates by taking out a large local bank loan and then doing a runner to Fedex

There were no whiners and moaners at EK, other than that same US exception, until around 2003.

[EK Pilot]

411A, at last you are caught out! I absolutely agree with the above. How do I know? I was there buddy. Incidentally, back in 1990, where were you? Probably just checking the mags? Gotta admit, pretty airplane though.

http://photos.airliners.net/photos/middle/9/7/5/1066579.jpg

[bafanguy]

Of all the things one might have to say about 411A, his professional pedigree is NOT up for dispute. I seriously doubt he ever flew one of whatever that thing is.

What is it ?

[PPRuNeUser0199]

My guess is a Cessna 401.:}

[EK Pilot]

My guess is it's a Cessna, errr 411A? :rolleyes:

[montencee]

411A may be the oldest of warhorses with the most tedious way of telling his war stories, but I don't doubt that he really has been there and done that.

But I'm now wondering if that includes being at Emirates and being the exceptional runner mentioned above.

He wouldn't advertise that part of his history. Anybody know if 411A's initials are BW?

[411A]

Indeed it is a 411A, EK Pilot, and yes I do own and fly one, as a personal aeroplane.
However, I'm thinking of selling it as business is so good, I now can afford a... CE441, with -10 motors.
Coast to coast in 6.5 hours, in air conditioned pressurized comfort.
James, where the hell did you put the Havanas'?
Oh yes, EK Pilot, 1990 was about four years after I turned down an invitation to join the then rather small EK, as a direct entry Captain.
SV was paying far too much to change horses and, I sure as heck didn't want to fly an Airboos.:yuk:
EK held open interviews at the Crown Plaza in JED at the time, wanting folks from SV to join.


Come to think of it there was one American at EK (who was previously with EAL and SQ), was on the A310 or possibly the A300, can't remember which, who constantly whined and moaned...with the initials *WOW.
Ring any bells?
He went on to fly a TriStar 500 and had the dubious distinction of dragging the tail of that aeroplane on rotation, which was really hard to do.
Didn't go to FedEx though, altho he might have liked too.


*Remembering that Bill is short for William.

[on_the_right]

guys,

didnt want to start a new thread, but will a guy with 9000TT, 8500 on the 737-NG (4000 PIC) stand a chance of a DEC with EK.
cheers,

OTR

[ruserious]

will a guy with 9000TT, 8500 on the 737-NG (4000 PIC) stand a chance of a DEC with EK
Yes, of course you will, come on over and join the bedlam. After all why would we promote our wide-body, global network, ETOPS, ULH, RVSM, FANS experienced First Officers (most who have had commands before) when we can take short haul pilots who have only flown on one Continent straight into the left seat :ok:

[Oblaaspop]

Nicely put serious guy, couldn't have said it better myself!!!:ok:

[Fart Master]

Seconded:D

[on_the_right]

thanks a bunch for the information. yeah, if i was an FO with EK, i would sure feel the same way ! no harm in asking anyway !
(have flown in all continents except africa)
cheers,

OTR

[Muttley Crew]

I now can afford a... CE441, with 10 motors.Wow! a 441 with 10 motors!! You rool 411A. why don't you get one of them hydraulic bouncing sets to really pimp your ride. :rolleyes:

Only flown with one DEC so far. He was a yank and he was weird and he was a d!ckhead so on the basis of that rather limited sampling, I tend to side with Mensaboy at this stage. Maybe I lucked out and met the only weird, American DEC with d!ckhead qualities in Ek but you have to admit it doesn't look good.

[411A]

Not ten motors, Muttley, dash ten motors.
As in...more ESHP, and longer life.
Hey, at a $1million plus, it ain't a bad bird.
Of course, I'd rather have a Lockheed JetStar, but then I'd have to put up with a .....co-pilot.:rolleyes:
Of course, I could always use him to clean the windshield.:}*


*'Tis a joke son, so don't get your knickers in a twist.

[millerscourt]

411A I know just the F/O for you ie White Knight. I am sure you two would get on like a house on fire.:rolleyes:

[IXNAT]

Only flown with one DEC so far. He was a yank and he was weird and he was a d!ckhead so on the basis of that rather limited sampling, I tend to side with Mensaboy at this stage. Maybe I lucked out and met the only weird, American DEC with d!ckhead qualities in Ek but you have to admit it doesn't look good.

Hmm,

Seems like quite a few, as you put it, d!ckhead first officers here on pprune, if these posts are any indication. How about some examples of what made these yanks so lovable.

IXNAT

[Muttley Crew]

nah... not worth the bad karma. Besides he might recognise himself and feel hurt. :{

I don't have a problem with Americans and find the yank-bashing here a little off-putting. Let's switch to the kiwis, shall we? They're used to it.:ok:

I'm sure the majority of DECs are nice guys and not at all weird. Just like the majority of Accelerated Command FOs are nice guys and not
d!ckheads, despite their willingness to queue-jump.

[kiwi_r4]

Hi Muttley Crew,

You have a strong belief in yourself that you are funny and show wit in many of your postings – The sad thing is you’re not very funny or witty. That’s just my opinion of course.

Go ahead and Kiwi bash if you like; whatever spins your wheel! Quite unusual how some of you always have to hunt in a pack, like wolves really!

Regards,

Kiwi.

[Muttley Crew]

On the other hand, why stifle "intelligent" discussion?

Essentially he was an argumentative, nit-picking fcuk who was hung up on things the other guys generally wouldn't give a toss about.

FOs love being micro-managed and berated.

[L1011]

411A I'm going to have to call your bluff. Fact is buddy, I know who you are, despite the fact that you wouldn't remember me.

The early Yanks who came to EK were type rated on the 727 (Al W, Bill S) or the Airbus (Bill B, OM, JB etc). Back then in the era of principled management (sort of:rolleyes: ) EK only hired DECs with experience on type.

You as a SV Tristar driver wouldn't have qualified, hence the move further East later on I guess.

The only Yank who was a pain, was BW. Who as mentioned, did a runner. Rumour was he went to FedEx on a Subic base, but never confirmed that.

I flew with some of the above mentioned as a FO. Good guys all (except BW) and I learned a lot from them. The current crop of Yank DECs I can't comment on, not having to share a flight deck with them. Never met the talking horse and don't know the Capt. America.

[Clipper811]

In his true fashion, BW was to run the Subic Operation -according to him.
My info is that he went to Kallitta.


"The only Yank who was a pain, was BW. Who as mentioned, did a runner. Rumour was he went to FedEx on a Subic base, "

[aviationdoc]

The common theme here would make an excellent example for a CRM course.
Everyone seems to be bitching about status,pay and Nationality issues.All these issues are not condusive with the job in hand.
When professionals start to compare with fellow co-workers they cease to become professionals.

[ekpilot]

Avation Doc,

What would make good conversation at a CRM course is the post mortem of the incident / accident that Emirates will have with the current 'head in the sand' attitude that is being exhibited by management. The holes in the swiss cheese are lining up and no one is listening. There will be so many shouting 'We Told You So!!'

And for the record, 411A has never been offered a job at Emirates. He never flew any of the required types that EK were looking for. Sorry 411A, you have been ousted as a liar, which in this part of the world is not a good thing to be called at all. But then with your extensive experience in the Middle East, you'd know that, wouldn't you?

L1011,

Era of principled management? The way things are going that could be described as just two years ago!!

[bushbolox]

Yes, of course you will, come on over and join the bedlam. After all why would we promote our wide-body, global network, ETOPS, ULH, RVSM, FANS experienced First Officers (most who have had commands before) when we can take short haul pilots who have only flown on one Continent straight into the left seat :ok:

Although I appreciate that the f/os are pissed off at their treatment, I'm afraid the list of things you mentioned are not all exclusive to middleeast longhaul pilots. the type of ops you do is not that big a deal and the skills are not exclusively manifest in EK f/os, previous commanders or not..Its a weak arguement. Simialr to the one that assumes all turbo prop pilots will struggle in jets, and so have to go thru a pathetic right of passage for a jet rating.protectionism wrapped up in elitism.
We have etops,rvsm (big deal to both),ULH we dont do but I'm sure its a combination of teh first three with an extra bod ( or maybe not knowing EK). I make many long haul flights in my 800, have flown in regions from the first to the fourth world and would apply my professionalism to achieve the same in a bigger aircraft.The last aircraft i flew was smaller than this one , and so it goes. The point of this rant? Dont expect sympathy or solidarity for your plight at EK if your tactic is to be so arrogant to assume that the right seat at ek is prerequisite for career advancement, and the font of all aviation skill.
Look around you on your right seat colleagues I can assure you they are not the chosen few. Three years at EK does not substitute for years of experiences, just because it wasnt at EK.

Now try and reason back rather than playing the did i fail card , because the answer is NO. In the three years since my f/o iview the comapny has changed, if they were to offer me a capts job, my decision would not be based on whether I felt adequate enough to hold my own amongst ek f/os.I know enough of them not to be intimdated by their rote knowledge of ops. As well as the experienced guys getting shafted there are many who are on thier first real airline job (ie not a third world con shop), got some knowledge and think everyone else must be inferior. Flat earth mentality. You signed the contract not the rest of the flying community.:ok:

Flame on

[411A]

>>Three years at EK does not substitute for years of experiences, just because it wasnt at EK.<<

Sadly, you can't tell that to the folks in the RHS at EK, bushbolox, simply because they have fallen for the sales pitch....their beaks appear to be well above ground effect.:ugh:

[millerscourt]

L1011

I think you will find that 411A after SV did not go East as he claims to have been a B707 DEC with SQ in the Mid 70's. I guess if this is so then he left SQ to join SV on the B707 and then got rated on the Tristar at SV. This would make him at least 65 by now!! My guess after SV is that he entered the Agency world for employment. He now claims to be a Captain on Tristars with Air Universal in Jordan.What an end to an illustrious career.

Yes he certainly was not offered a B727 DEC at EK in the early days as you had to be rated and experienced on type as I also tried but not being B727 type rated they were not interested.

[L1011]

Millers, Strange isn't it that the man himself has totally ignored our posts :\

Actually he did move East, not to SQ but another Tristar operation where he ended his days. Met him more than once in bars around the Far East, he was a likeable old geezer. Full of shyte, but entertaining. Just likes to wind up the EK boys I reckon. Sad he tried to stretch the truth, aviation is SUCH a small world, one always gets caught out.:ooh:

[411A]

Quite wide of the mark, millerscourt, and I certainly never applied for any B727 posting...far too small an aeroplane.:}

I'm quite surprised that you even considered.

[Muttley Crew]

Sounds like you've been rumbled 411A.... :{

Good to see you adopt the "deny, deny, deny" strategy, it always works with the missus!:ok:

[EK Pilot]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! :) :)

This is the best result on this site ever! 411A, you are bloody liar matey!!! :} :} :} :} :}

[millerscourt]

411a In those days I was then a mere B737 Captain although I had been on the B707 320-C for 4 years but no longer current. As you are neither B727 or Airbus rated as others have said there was no way that you had ever been offered a DEC at EK in those early days.Why would you have even wanted to consider EK in those early days with a route structure just around the Gulf and Indian sub continent? Far too dull for a Tristar Captain of your calibre and experience surely??.

[411A]

>>...there was no way that you had ever been offered a DEC at EK in those early days.<<
You are quite mistaken, millerscourt.
'Round about 1987 or so, EK ran a full page advert in Flight International requesting applications from 'experienced wide-body Captains' and no aircraft type was specified.
I applied, further correspondence followed, and a preliminary offer was presented.
Two others at SV that I know of applied, one accepted, one declined as did I.
Simple as that.
Look thru your old copies of Flight and you will clearly see the advert, run in two successive issues, as I recall.
EK's route structure at the time was limited, the salary was lower, and I was quite senior at SV.

[ekpilot]

Hunt him down boys... :}

Just looked back through the old copies, from Jan 1985 to Dec 1989. No such advert. :hmm:

[filejw]

Well in all fairness what he said is true as I remember.Plus I did have a conversation about working at EK with one of their 727 guys back in the late 80's and as I recall what 411a said is pretty close.:ugh:

[411A]

You remember well, filejw, the information about EK was rather well known in the mid-east at the time, and quite a few guys had a look, as in 1986, SV decided that they were 'overmanned' in the flight crew department, so started selectively not renewing contracts.
This, combined with the GOSI program cancellation previously, resulted in quite a few SV guys looking elsewhere.
Didn't last all that long, as SV had to begin hiring about a year or two later.

I'm not totally surprised that the present EK guys would have no particular knowledge of this...they might well have been just out of short pants at the time.:}

[millerscourt]

Whether there was an advert or not in 86/87 does not alter the fact that you had to be rated on either the B727 or A300/310 to get a look in at EK as a DEC. 411A is neither. His colleague who he says took a position there was clearly A300 Rated. That is the difference. QED

[411A]

Nope, your QED is just slightly misplaced once again, millerscourt.
One was rated on the A300-600 (SV had eleven at the time), the other was not, so far as I know.
Fact is, they were looking at quite a few Captains with wide-body heavy jet experience, but not rated at the time.
A small window of opportunity, shortlived I expect, but nonetheless, present.

That you were turned down has no bearing on the matter.
SV did the same, and trained a lot, directly into the respective widebody aircraft, as the fleet needs dictated.

By the way, I never did fly the B707 at SV, joined directly onto the L10.
As a line Captain.
I had the very necessary four engine heavy jet experience, as did many others at the time. Training wasn't bad either, lots of shouting in the sim, but most (but certainly not all) got through.

I can't help but think that EK might well have been served with the very same idea.
Less bitching and moaning might well have resulted, with a BIG training bond to go along with the program.
In doing so, many of the 'problems' that EK faces now could well have been avoided.
More pay would have helped as well, as it was just slightly low.
I wonder if wide-body training was offered to the B727 guys at the time?:}

[Muttley Crew]

Who cares what you flew Mr. 411A.....

The fact is, you've been busted bullshiitting on this forum. I admire your efforts to deny the truth but eventually even you will be overwhelmed. Why not bow out gracefully?

By the way, I really enjoy your not-so-subtle jibes and attempts to remain relevant in this modern era. I would be very disappointed if you were to disappear forever.

Your ramblings provide a visible backdrop against which to value the input of rational posts made herein.

[L1011]

Just to set the record straight. EK did advertise (more than once) for non typre-rated pilots. BUT those hired as DECs were all rated on either the 727 or the A-306/310. Only the FOs were non-rated.

Have to agree with Muttley. 411A is very entertaining, not to mention persistent. I would hate to lose his EK baiting, it works so well:cool:

You've been outed old buddy. But, don't worry, people will forget.
Go up to Oak Creek canyon and do some trout fishing for a while. When the weather cools down in AZ you can resume your favourite sport.

[411A]

See the post above, Muttley, even others agree that the adverts appeared as I described.
Surprised are you?

I never mentioned I was hired, old boy, just received an offer, which I declined.

I'm affraid you have an overactive imagination.
Don't worry, not going away, I just like to remind those at EK now that the mid-east hasn't changed very much...except perhaps for the local prices.
Even the old days at SV weren't bad at all.
You might be surprised to learn that many banked their entire SV monthly salary, and paid their local expenses just from the per-diem.
Combine that with the opportunity to travel anywhere on the system FOC once a month (with the days off guaranteed, according to their schedule) made for quite a good deal.

[sec 3]

Speaking of DEC's, a freind of mine just got hired at EK,DEC 777. Coming from an A310, not a bad move:E

[Rabbitwear]

A friend in EK with closer to 4 years than 3 years service with EK , and more than 10k jet hours ,no command , but still , was told we are only recruiting on 777 still many dec's to come sorry.
He was on his way to resign but had hoped for a small glimmer of hope.

[Muttley Crew]

Surprised are you? Nahh.... not really. Very little surprises me after living in this place a few years.

Actually I've lost track of who's said what about working where. I'll side with YOU for the time being, if it makes things a little livelier around here. :ok:

[theidler]

Speaking of DEC's, a freind of mine just got hired at EK,DEC 777. Coming from an A310, not a bad move:E

Undoubtedly the Emirates First Officers will have the flags out to celebrate your friend's arrival and will be keen to congratulate him on his good fortune.

On a related subject this quote from The Business Lounge column in Fridays' 7DAYS paper.

"Good companies know their second most important audience is their workforce, abuse them at your peril"

The context being the way that companies conduct business in Dubai. The article was slanted towards listing large local companies that tend towards following this advice. It was a list of one and the name was not Emirates.

[sec 3]

Theidler, didn't mean to slag the f/o's at EK. I read alot about their plight here and wonder why EK does what it does to f/o's. Saving money? Experience level? Lack of f/o's to fill the void created by upgrades? Not enough sim time available or instructors to instruct?Being on the Airbus or Boeing fleet, cross-training costs?:confused:

[ruserious]

why EK does what it does to f/o's
Money, pure and simple

[theidler]

Apparently over the last three years Emirates has discovered that it is quicker and cheaper to recruit and train a DEC than to upgrade a First Officer and then recruit and train his replacement.

It seems that they are employing as many DEC's as they can and Emirates First Officers will only be upgraded to cover any shortfall in DEC's.

I'm told that Emirates has a history of being reactive to crew shortfalls partly because they don't factor in wastage such as resignations into their forecasts.

It maybe that the accountants encourage this as the total flight crew salary bill is reflected in the minimal numbers of flight crew doing the job. Just as long as the flights still go.

With a lot of crew operating at the 900 hr/annum level the 'talking horse' is reported to have said that the GCAA are being lobbied (frantically?) to raise this limit.

Undoubtedly a breeding ground for discontent and variable standards.

[upsguy]

Just wondering how long to upgrade from fo to capt? Is it close to the 3 year mark?

[puff m'call]

With who UPS?

[145qrh]

:Puff ... don't be obtuse he obviously means in the Middle East :} , being a Yank he I bet he thinks it's a country

[upsguy]

Just wondering how long to upgrade from fo to capt? Is it close to the 3 year mark?

With Emirates?

[145qrh]

As with all airlines it depends on experience.....and ability

Dont join a Emirates expecting an upgrade within a certain time period as it will change..

Try the SEARCH function????

Very nasty 145 - chill bro - you got something against the Yanks? 4HP

[upsguy]

typical...

typical upsguy? - yes; you too; no punctuation & you post a question without identifying the airline you're on about, expecting the rest of us to know which one of the Middle East airlines you're referring to. Typical.

Group hug please; there's too much aggro around at the mo - take it easy folks. 4HP

[donpizmeov]

It depends. Min time is 3yrs if you have 6000hrs. It can be reduced to 18months if you have 8000hrs and 2000hrs command on something with jet motors that weighs in at more than 55000kg.

At the moment EK have somewhere between 1550 to 1600 pilots. So somewhere between 700 to 800 FOs who will have to upgrade before you. The papers say EK have around 90 to 95 aeroplanes now, and I have seen estimates of between 130 to 150 aircraft by 2012. We crew at between 6 to 10 crews to aeroplane (10 to those that fly a long way with multi crew on board, 6 for the others). So taking that we have 90 aircraft now, and lets say the upper figure of 150 by 2012, that 60 new aircraft, to make it easy lets say 10 crew per aeroplane, thats 600 new captains. Some of these are going to be DECs as EK are still hiring them, and will continue to do so.

EK has a lot of aircraft on order. Some are to expand the fleet, some are to replace the 772s, 332, 343.

It must also be noted that I will have no idea what next months roster will be like till the very end of this month, so all guesses taken about what will happen in the future are just purely guesses.

Don

[upsguy]

hey don,
thanks for the info, it was very helpful.

upsguy

[330 Man]

Hey 4hp,
In the original post there is bold print at the top that says" current upgrade time-EK". Where did that come from? Was it typed by upsguy to start the thread? And if it was in fact typed by upsguy, did he not then indentify the airline to which he was refering? These boys in Dubitown need their wives to return pronto. The summer doldrums are getting dangerous.
I see that 145qrh has taken the opportunity to bash the "yanks". I wonder which far superior place he hails from. Obviously his kind has added great advances to mankind, probably invented aviation, definately invented sarcasim, and are far superior in their knowledge of world geography. Of course those of us who ALSO think we know a little bit about geography think that a "yank" is someone from the north! But maybe that would fall into the area of "local knowledge". Tell us 145qrs which far superior place do you come from?
And upsguy, don's information is spot on.
Love to all,
330 man

[145qrh]

Two great quotes...

" never argue with an idiot.They will drag you down to their level, than beat you with expereince"

or

"never argue with an idiot.The people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

Either way I like them both....:)

[ShockWave]

....don't forget that around a quarter of all f/o s are local cadets and will require six to ten years before they are able to upgrade, and there will be pilots leaving and retireing. The airline has also expanded faster than anyone has ever predicted, hence the requirement for DECs. How long can this continue? -I don't think anyone has any idea.

[Yossarian]

And as with anything at EK, what may be true today, could be changed before tomorrow.

If history is anything to go by, then policy here is only valid while the ink is wet. There are far too many variables for anyone (including management) to be able to set anything in stone.

Throw the dice; take your chances.

[411A]

Quite typical of the middle east in general, EK in in particular, I suspect.

One wonders, why don't (didn't) the guys before ever notice?

Perhaps the head in sand scenario is operative.:ugh:

[Anti-Skid Inop]

Hey Mr 145

Is 'expereince' (sic) a new kind of weapon?

[ekpilot]

Why don't you call/write Alan or Ed and have them tell you why they are sending even more accelerated guys across to the 777 on transition upgrade courses? That's right, the initial batch off 22 fasttrackers was exactly that, the initial batch! So while the gentlemen at the helm are busy explaining how they should communicate, they are elegantly avoiding doing exactly that - COMMUNICATE!:mad:

[LHR Rain]

Thank you for your concern EK Pilot. This from a pilot that had such concern for the Emirates' pilots that he came as a DEC. Your words are meaningless to us.

[Zomp]

Rain,
last time you were a captain, what are you today? F/O again?

[ekpilot]

Rainman, you need to look more carefully at the name of the contributors to this forum.
Best regards, (one of the 100+ 330/340 FOs that will be affected by this.)

[LHR Rain]

Zomp what difference does it make, FO or captain? Where did I say I was an FO? I think the entire pilot group should be in together on this subject. We are the ones that need to communicate on this matter. This is the begining of the end at Emirates if this continues.

[411A]

Beginning of the end?
I would hadly think so.

[ennui]

Uh Oh,

Looks like another American refugee about to play in the sand as a DEC!

[ShockWave]

As Ek pilot said, write to them or go and have a chat. If 100+ Ek F/Os book appointments with ED I'm sure they will try to do something. How far they can get with it is anyones guess.
I have never been accellerated or had the dubious pleasure of being a DEC but I have always tried not to vent my anger at these guys. They are only making the most of what they are offered because they have the experience to do so (generally). It is their good fortune and good luck to them.
Think up some options that the company can take and go to them with some possitive ideas about how they can make things better for all the guys affected. Nothing may come of it but you will never know unless you go.

[Tail Rota]

Hi Guys

I was lunching with a mate of mine who had a wee run in with a DEC ......he was a yank. not a bad bloke until he tried to flex a little attitude at the boys....apparently the DEC was told very ASSERTIVELY to go and read his manuals before the company finds out how much he doesnt know:E


ooooowwwww very bad.

TR:ok:

[turtleneck]

i was also lunching with a mate of mine and he had .... blah, blah, blah.
keep that crap to yourself, tail, as long as there's no real meat around the bone.
ttn

[7550]

Time to upgrade in EK has always been on average about three years sometimes less. I dont see that changing in the near future even with the 380 delay. Hang in there, it will happen, possibly sooner than you think.

[Ramboflyer 1]

What are you management or a DEC Turtle, who else is the poor guy supposed to talk too , no union nothing , EK seems like a training ground for other airlines......
Dont suffer in silence..............

[Ghostflyer]

Tell that to the 330 F/Os!

[Tail Rota]

Sorry Turtle

you may want to pull that very long head of yours in a weeeee bit and hide under your shell:=

didnt mean to hit a nerve old boy. :E

I cant remember wether he was at lunch choosing between a very big pork and apple sandwich or a DEC to eat......... or was he about to be eaten himself...:cool: mmmmmmm

anyway ......blah blah blah ...and he said .....and she said....


TR:ok:

[ekpilot]

EK Pilot said nothing at all. What was said was by ekpilot and before you assume things, it was not me. Just to clairify things here, the names EK PIlot and ekpilot are being used by many of us pilots in Dubai as a way of hiding their identities. At the time now there are about 20 of us using either or both of the names.

It's an excellent way of saying what you think without someone being able to guess who you are by either your writing sense or looking at when someone has days and time off. As I write this I know that at least 5 of the EK Pilots are airborne right now!! So they cannot write anything!

[The Real Pink Baron]

On the 345 you can post on pprune in the air, they can check your roster as much as they want!!

[gl69]

145 you stil have not said where you are from. We all know 330 man has great quotes but where are you from?

Shockwave there never was a reason for DECs. The company has dragged its feet on training to get ready for the B-777 just for the excuse to hire DECs. The company knew about these airplanes for over 2 years. They could also drop the 3 year requirement to upgrade but won't. Expansion is not that fast. My last company recieved a new airplane every 10 days for over 2 years and did not have any problems with training or recruitement. Why the difference?

[145qrh]

This forum is anonymous, although I would gladly put my name and staff number to any post that I have made....if everyone else did the same.

So where I am from shall remain a mystery.

As for "yank" bashing..I know I shouldn't ,because they are such a sensitive race.......but it's just so easy.

PS

Yank...short for Yankee..

Main Entry: 1Yan·kee
Pronunciation: 'ya[ng]-kE
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
1 a : a native or inhabitant of New England b : a native or inhabitant of the northern United States
2 : a native or inhabitant of the United States

[PITA]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
putz
PRONUNCIATION: pts
NOUN: 1. Slang A fool; an idiot. 2. Vulgar Slang A penis.
INTRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: putzed, putz·ing, putz·es
Slang To behave in an idle manner; putter.
ETYMOLOGY: Yiddish pots, penis, fool.


"Is this you, my anonymous friend?"

[145qrh]

"American Heritage"......oxymoron if ever I heard one..

You PITA are a funny guy(:ugh: ), but your thoughts are about as welcome as a French kiss at a family reunion...altho' having spent soem time in the Deep South.:) :)

[PITA]

Oh pleeze.....!

Someone of your vast and superior upbringing, cannot do better than that?
You disappoint us all.


PITA

[145qrh]

Anyone make head or tail of Mr ED's career planing spreadsheet..

Looks like about 30 or so Airbus up-grades between now and the end of March, so some guys will be almost 4 years on the bus before UG.

It will be fun to see what the "actual" v's "planned" looks like in a years time when it has come to pass...:}

[ukwannabe]

Are Emirates still looking for direct entry Captains, or are all new commands placed in order of seniority?

[Fart Master]

EK seniority list, whats that:confused:

[Payscale]

Yes we follow a strict seniority system.....if you have any proceed to the back of the line :ugh:

[ukwannabe]

I'm sorry, but could anyone post a sensible answer!

[filejw]

Check the web site info should still be there if they are. I do know they are still doing eval's

[TangoUniform]

Are Emirates still looking for direct entry Captains, or are all new commands placed in order of seniority?

Yes, DECs for the foreseeable future, at least until Spring of '07. Of course that plan could change tomorrow. (from pilot recruiting)

TU

[EGGW]

Is that you BM, aka Tartan Guy??????????????? :mad: :ugh:

[TangoUniform]

Is that you BM, aka Tartan Guy??????????????? :mad: :ugh:

NO NO NO. Not even a wannabe. Just what I have heard. And do you think TG would even come close here? No way, jose.

TU :ok:

[tournesol]

ukwannabe,
You will not get sensible answer from the KG. They are too busy fighting over each other's toys and accusing each other over what they said or did not say.
Visit www.emiratesgroupcareers.com
Your answer might be there. Good luck.

[fly737]

Guys,

anyone aware of the "real" upgrade policy with EK, hurt that people with previous PIC hours are getting they upgrade notification before the total hours requirement. (8000H).


is it me or i'm dreaming....:ugh:

[splitbar]

Two great quotes...

" never argue with an idiot.They will drag you down to their level, than beat you with expereince"

or

"never argue with an idiot.The people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

Either way I like them both....:)

It's..... "never argue with a fool.... onlooking bystandards might not know who the fool is"

[4HolerPoler]

It's..... "never argue with a fool.... onlooking bystandards might not know who the fool is"

Its......"bystanders......onlooking bystanders might not know who the bystandard is."

4HP :E

[MC CAVOK]

:ugh: Just wondering what is happening with EK upgrades since A380 is delayed? The fleet transfer from Airbus to Boeing must have an influence for F/O upgrades (Boeing F/O's) because the Airbus guys filling up the Boeing fleet.
Then again when A380 arrives the company is short of Airbus guys in turn.

Fellow EK pilots: Give your idea in this matter, I know in this room are the guys who knows the situation better than I do. Thanks.

Considering to leave this company!!!!!!!!!!!

[MR8]

MC Cavok,

Well, you obviously are on the B777 fleet. Looking at your previous posts (all 4 of them.. lol) I noticed that you joined in November 2005, so you're ONLY one year in the company, and already whining about possible upgrade delays because your Airbus COLLEAGUES who have been in the company for nearly four years might take a seat on the B777.

First of all, you should be ashamed of your attitude, it's people like you who give pilots a bad name, moaning about something where there should be absolutely nothing to moan about.

Second, In about two years time, there will be B777 deliveries, hence upgrades on the B777. Meanwhile the A380 will arrive, so no Buspeople on the B777 anymore. If you do the math, you should know that you won't be delayed because of a few Airbus guys (more senior than you) joining the Boeing fleet now.

Third, if you absolutely want to ventilate your concerns, why not join the forces and write to TCAS and Ed about the total lack of career planning caused by the DEC's that join? They are the JUNIOR guys that take up your place! I know that up to now, nothing happens because of people writing, and you might call me an optimist, but the more people write about their concerns, the more the chances that something might happen. (ok, call me a very big optimist, on drugs or whatever...)

Fourth, your attitude is exactly what EK managers aim for with their divide and conquer strategy. United we stand, divided we'll fall...

This is not a personal attack, just wondering what the hell you are thinking.. And yes, I'm one of the F/O's on the bus...

MR8

[Vorsicht]

Pull your head in.
He was just asking a question

[GoreTex]

MC Cavok,
why to hell did you join EK, it was already s**t 2003, don't complain now, wait in line another 5 years.

[southflyer]

Anyone wonder why EK still upgrading guys on the airbus from the bottom up?
I thought the latest policy was to follow the list in "seniority" order... did I miss another FCI or News Letter??

[Saltaire]

Seniority who? He doesn't live here. You'll have to go back to the civilized world to find that guy. :{

For example, irrelevent left seat time flying for a charter companies like coconut airways ( :8 ) will serve you well here and allow you to jump the list on the numerous other qualified pilots from major carriers. It makes perfect sense. :ugh:

[donpizmeov]

Any contact details for Coconut Airways?

Don

[giovane]

I can totally agree with the frustrations but surely you can't call charter company command time irrelevent !!

It seems to me that charter Commanders fly all over the world in widebody aircraft with little or no support from main base, its a case of get on with it and make it happen. Not to mention flying into many airfields with poor nav/app aids etc
Its all good stuff for experience and stands them in good stead for future commands.

As i say, it shouldn't mean a quick command at EK but I would say its good experience not irrelevent.

Good Luck

[ETOPS]

Contact details for Coconut Airways

Captain Tobias Wilcock
Grantley Adams International Airport,
Seawell,
Christchurch,
Barbados

+1246 428 7101

[Tail Rota]

Hey Fellas

what about that Aussie outfit....Don'ttakeadingo Airways base out of Woollamaloo, just up from sheep-daggs creek.:cool:

I heard they are hireing....apparently all their guys are know at EK upgrading :E

Hey Southern man why dont you become a SFI or something in the mean time.


TR:ok:

[donpizmeov]

Don'ttakeadingo is now a dumping ground for Kiwis TR. So the quality from this outfit has taken a huge dive. Rumour has it they might be wet leasing to AIR NZ in the short term though, so not sure if any will be heading to EK now.

Don

[Tail Rota]

Well Don

you maybe onto something..........it will just mean Air New Zealand will have to buy them out for a very large sum of money .......and loose millions in the process ............ then they will ask Team New Zealand for a loan ..........which will make Air New Zealand a subsidary of EK. :D

They will then merge seniorities and EK will become Emirates New Zealand and have 5 different pay scales for the pilots and cabin crew.......and the boys from the Land of the long white cloud, working out of Sheep Dagg Creek, will be back where they started..........living in Auckland looking at redundencey:{


TR:ok:

[southflyer]

Well, you guys know how to spin the globe, Australia, New Zealand, and Barbados, what's next, Senegal?

So, about EK, was not the latest "policy" to upgrade in order of seniority? If so, then why all the junior guys on the upgrade course now?

An hey, Broken Cola, what is an SFI or something?

[Saltaire]

Giovane....

I'm sure you get the point....sure it's relevent, but the ex major airline chaps are essentially being penalized. Charter pilots have access to quick command and are therefore eligible for these out of seniority policies. It's wrong.

Southflyer...Junior guys on AB are going to the 777, having this previous charter command experience to circumvent the seniority list.

[763 jock]

Would charter LHS on the A330 or B767 be irrelevant?

[max AB]

Not for this..
" Position Vacant - Pastry Chef, our client is a 5 star rated hotel in the Middle East and they are urgently requiring a Chef with experience in all types of Pastry (Puff and Shu essential). The successful applicant must be team orientated, imaginative and self motivated. At least 5 years experience as a Pastry Chef is essential. Preference will be given to applicants with Left Hand Seat charter time A330 or B767

[777birdcage]

I flew with a DEC a month ago that had no previous wide body time, and HAD NEVER HAD AN OVERNIGHT TRIP.. But he did bake one hell of a puffy shu-**** doughnut..!

I am actually serious about the first part.. The pastry wasn't that good:ooh:

[wee one]

saltaire,
If you really think flying a widebody around the world into a plethora of destinations , in all weathers, to all manner of undeveloped airfields with only a mobile phone for support thinking on your feet, hands on etc etc etc etc is insufficient training for command in micromanaged airline, then sir you are an arrogant t0sser. Also these guys are already indoctrinated. The politics of ek policy notwithstanding your arguement is bolox

Learning ek routes is the same as learning any routes, not a seperate licence matey. Command ability is not defined by timed served at ek.
You are a disgrace to your fine colleagues.

Your chippy view of what happens these days in this industry is indicative of a probable self opinion far in excess of your experince or indeed the opinion of your checkers.:ok:

[flareflyer]

Dear all,

I think that previous command experience is valuable.
It does not matter where this command has been done.
The only thing is that maybe it is even more important to have respect of the seniority list.
All the ek pilots deserve the chance to become captain, ( this is why most of us joined).
I flew with many DECs and they were all nice persons to work with.
The problem is that if Ek management will continue to act as they are now, they will continue to loose credibility and no other experience pilots will join unless they are desperate.

flare

[gnadirs]

One thing not to forget guys....


many pilots in Qatar Airways are looking in your direction. 40 reprtedly are awaiting a slot at EY and a group as well is waiting a slot in EK.

And yes, we do have normal sane pilots with good skills. Agreed, they are becoming a rather rare commodity in the QR pool of pilot genes but they still exist...

ME management is the same everywhere...sad to see the sandpit is only that....a sandpit!

[4HolerPoler]

Take a chill pill guys (that means you wee one) - by all means continue the debate but please let's have a little more mutual respect.

Remember; if shouting about it isn't going to change anything, is it really worth getting all hot under the collar about it in the first place?

Carry on please.

4HP