lock door policy [Archive]

Bealzebub

21st Dec 2005, 12:23

The rules in this regard ( certainly inthe UK and many other countries) are clear cut and are not open to interpretation, or anything else. The Captain may have been well intentioned but that is simply irrelevant. In this case if they did as you suggest they were totally in the wrong and in violation of the rules.

My suggestion though would be that you apply whatever recourse you see as appropriate. It might be better to approach the individual discreetly and point out that these actions put you in an invidious position both with the other crew who are witness to these events and with the company and DfT whose policy and instruction is clear. Whatever may be everyones personal feelings on these matters ( and you may well be sympathetic), you yourself are liable to be disciplined for contributing to such infractions.

Although the Captains feathers may be a little ruffled by the approach, I think less so than a formal complaint through the management structure. If such an approach was ignored in the future then they would have little arguement with any subsequent action that almost certainly would result.

That would be my suggestion in this event, and an adult response. You are of course within your rights and ordinarilly required to report any safety or security concerns through the properly notified channels, so at the end of the day it is your call and responsibility rests on your shoulders for that decision.

261A

21st Dec 2005, 12:52

Everyone has their own opinion on this situation but I have to tell my experience this summer on Thomson flight from Turkey.

We had just been pushed back from terminal at about 1am and we began to taxi (very fast) down to the runway. As we were going so fast we all looked forward and I saw that the flight deck door was wide open. I don't know who would be to fault over this but don't the cabin crew sit at the front right next to the flight deck door? They should have seen it was open and shut it.
Before we took off it was closed but I didn't see who actually closed it.
The aircraft was a Thomsonfly 767.

FlightDetent

21st Dec 2005, 13:37

The rules are absolutely clear.

I think you did the right thing, not to report the commander but look for further knowledge elsewhere first and only then make your OWN opinion. Later when you do not feel the need to refer to yourself as "junior" (I do call junior myself) we will grow to be experienced for such decisions. A report may stay in captains papers and yours(!) for a long time - words are mighty, let's tread lightly.

If the captain was a really nice person, while seeking guidance from your CC superior, perhaps it may even be possible to approach him and ask for help with your dilemma. Now, that would be the ideal case.

I like the name of the forum you chose, the door is a security feature. So what are the effects on:

Security?
Safety?
CRM?

Should any unforeseen circumstances arise in flight (bad weather, technical problem, abusive drunks, major security issue), the key to keeping all souls on board happy and unharmed is mutual trust. If one can evolve this to mutual understanding, even better.

To me it seems that you faced a situation where the trust (from your point of view) was rightfully questioned. I suggest you endeavour not to lose the trust but try to find understanding instead.

All said, the rules for security doors are straight and leave NO room for mis-interpretation.

261A:
To close and LOCK the door is SOP. S stands for standard. :ok: Something went unusual and the crew returned to their routine just after the point where you lock and check the door? Finger trouble? I do not know. I remember that once the door remained unlocked, flung open with loud bang on rotation just to be slammed shut two or three times VERY shortly afterwards. The captain did make his opinion on this very clear later.

Cheers,
FD
(the-unreal)

Bigears

21st Dec 2005, 13:48

261A, you make my point nicely- you were more worried that rules were broken than the thought that you were being hijacked!

Getoutofmygalley (what a great name :ok: ) you are of course correct - if the rule is there, it should be obeyed. Your 'word in the ear' is a good solution.

Of course I'm not aircrew, so my opinion should count less than those who are- its just my 2p worth.

Anyhow, fly safely :ok:

261A

21st Dec 2005, 19:39

Bigears,
I was worried about the rules and safety/security of the aircraft but that is less of a worry as we were on the ground and would be stupid for anyone to attempt a hijack on the ground would say something if it was open once taken off.

FlightDetent,
If the rules on UK airlines/aircraft are to not allow visits to the flight deck and only to allow them when aircraft has landed and all passengers have disembarked then the door should not be open at all while passengers are onboard.

Just my thoughts, everyone has their opinion.

markflyer6580

21st Dec 2005, 19:57

As an ATPL student my view is that the captain should not be reported,he is in charge of the aircraft and in my eyes can do as he pleases,the only person with any right to argue the point is the first officer.(No offence cabin crew):ouch:
If I am fortunate enough to be a captain one day I will certainly let kids visit the flight deck.
IF THE PEOPLE IN THE TERMINAL DO THEIR JOB PROPERLY THERE WILL NOT BE ANY"BAD GUYS" ON THE AIRCRAFT. :ooh:
As for the DFT.....Bunch of desk jockeys making up rules for the sake of it,the events on 9/11 were not caused by a child on the flight deck,they were caused by brainwashed simpletons gaining access to the flight deck.Judging by the chaos they caused,I for one am sure a locked door would not have stopped them.
BIGEARS IS RIGHT -COMMON SENSE OVER RULES.

Bealzebub

21st Dec 2005, 22:27

Well markflyer that may be your view and you may be a student, but I am afraid it is a naive viewpoint. A Captain is in charge of an aircraft, its crew and passengers and any cargo. However that charge is expected to be conducted within the rules and regulations as laid down. There may well be occaisions when that has to be modified to suit a situation but it is not a matter of "do as he pleases" and of course nor should it be. Captains are not placed in their post by divine right, they are placed there by virtue of their demonstrated ability to not only fly the aircraft well, but to be effective managers in that role. Being an effective manager is seldom demonstrated by adopting a pick and choose version of the rules and constraints that one operates by. Indeed it sets a poor example to others and would do little to endear respect from other people.

Your bold type bit about people in the terminal doing their job is also a little naive and rather overstating the obvious in an ideal world.

If you are fortunate enough to be a Captain one day it will be because you are someone in whom your employer can place their trust. Allowing kids or anyone else on the flightdeck is constrained at this time in the Uk to pre flight and post flight only. As such it is not up to you to decide to violate this rule, without placing others in an invidious position, and thus demonstrating poor leadership. That is the point of the thread starters post.

Whatever you may feel, your version of common sense is not necessarily an adequate substitute for the statutes we currently have to work under. Should you one day find yourself in this position you will realise the point and better understand the difficulty expressed by tiggerific.

RatherBeFlying

22nd Dec 2005, 01:19

My earlier comment was made without knowledge of your particular regulatory regime -- although I along with others do feel it is over stringent in this case.

As to how you address this matter, the earlier posters have mostly commented well.

markflyer6580

22nd Dec 2005, 09:41

My point was,the likleyhood of some crazed taliban member charging up the aisle because the flight deck door is open is pretty slim.
Maybe my views on terminal security are naive,however that is the only place these people can be stopped,the usual approach of-did you pack your bags? is hardly high security.
Surely the cabin crew understand the need for young people who want to see the flight deck?
As mentioned earlier in this thread the word in the ear is probably the best plan and I understand tiggeriffic's conundrum,but I'm sure they can see that although rules were bent,it did not endanger an aircraft.
The biggest danger to aircraft these days are football fans,ingerlund! etc (read drunken thugs!),they would be the first to try their luck with an unlocked door.Cabin crew have my upmost respect for putting up with people like that,if I do make it in to the left seat,on those flights the door will stay firmly shut.
As for this visits on the ground only rule...who wants to look at the terminal out of the window,after all it is the view not the buttons that are interesting
:ok:

Getoutofmygalley

22nd Dec 2005, 15:38

markflyer6580 I don't agree with your opinion that only the First Officer has the right to argue the point with the Captain. If I was flying with a Captain who was breaking the rules and insisting on breaking the rules then I as Cabin Crew would not have any problem with reporting him or voicing my opinion to him.

What if us Cabin Crew are relying on the First Officer to stand up to the Captain, but the First Officer was very green and too scared to stand up to the Captain? If the Captain was to allow a child into the flight deck and the First Officer kept his mouth shut, then not only would the Captain and Cabin Crew get into trouble, but also so would the First Officer.

The last line of defense on any passenger aircraft is the Cabin Crew and NOBODY gets into the flight deck on any aircraft I am working on UNLESS the aircraft is already on the ground.

Whilst the DFT rules might seem a bit severe to you, they are rules that we all have to follow in this country. You might think the DFT are a bunch of desk jockeys (which they most probably are) - but they are looking out for the safety of everyone, not just those in the aircraft but also those on the ground.

If you ever make it into the left hand seat, you will have to follow SOP's unless you have bloody good grounds to ignore them and unfortunately disobeying an SOP about aircraft security is not one you will easily talk yourself out of.

And please please please don't ever rely on the people in the terminal from stopping the bad guys or dangerous items getting on the aircraft - aircraft security is everyones business!

markflyer6580

22nd Dec 2005, 16:25

In this instance it was a child,if it was a large chap going in to have a look then something needs to be said.
I agree with you that it is a team affair running an aircraft but the captain is the captain and that is the end of it.
If I was the man in charge and you said no to somebody then fair enough and I would respect your descision as you are the people dealing with the pax all the time.

I however fully understand what you mean about "green" f/o's and my first post was didn't really appear how I wanted!
My view was more of a flying related one i.e f/o can call to stop take off or take control if he thinks the captain is about to do something dangerous,many accidents have been caused because the f/o was too scared to intervene,hence I can understand your fears of relying in them!
Some of these SOP's are ridiculous though and we would not have them if it wasn't for the mindless few,I would be interested to know what your thoughts were on flight deck visits pre 9/11 etc,after all planes still got hijacked back then,if its going to happen it will methinks.

As for your last point about security I fully agree,the problem is that the pilots or your cabin crew colleagues cannot stop things being smuggled on without checking everybodys bags,hence why terminal security should be improved. I fly from a regional airport where even when flying GA you have to go through security all bags through x ray then a search if you set offf the alarm.Even then you cannot get close to the airliners yet pax can wander around them with no real direction when they come from the terminal? But then there is no fence around half of the airport,all a bit of a joke really.

By the way I think cabin crew are ace and deserve more credit for keeping aircraft in the sky than they get.:ok:

Getoutofmygalley

22nd Dec 2005, 16:45

Before 9/11 I wasn't in aviation, so my thoughts on flight deck visits back then would have been along the lines of "wouldn't it be great to look out the windows at the front".

But post 9/11 (again before I was in aviation) when the full details of the atrocities became available, and the 'locked door' policy was created I thought that it was a shame, but fully understood and supported the reasons for it.

My views now (as a member of Cabin Crew) are that passengers should stay out of the flight deck, purely because you don't know what someone is going to do in there. If a passenger was to pull a lever or press a button, they could create a serious problem - so my personal opinion is that I would prefer passengers to only visit the flight deck when the aircraft has landed.

markflyer6580

22nd Dec 2005, 17:23

Fair one,I would hope the crew would keep an eye on people whilst in there but it is a shame that its all been stopped,as it was such visits that sparked my love for flying,and you jammy buggers are the only ones who get in there now!

I would love a jump seat ride when I fly anywhere.:D

amy_lou34

22nd Dec 2005, 18:16

I work with tiggerific, and to be honest I wouldn't have felt that good about the child being allowed into the flight deck. Just because it was a child, doesn't mean he wont do any harm...chances are slim but still...doesn't anyone remember that young boy strapping a bomb to himself in Iraq?? Fair enough we're not in Iraq but in the age of terrorism I wouldn't like to take my chances. As for the First Officer being the only one to challenge the Captain...I don't think so. If the SCCM feels the Captain may be putting the aircraft, passengers and crew at risk, he/she has the right to say so.

cavortingcheetah

22nd Dec 2005, 18:36

:D
So very sorry to say that in my company you are all fired!
The Captain is the master of the ship. All others on board are nothing more than appendages of one function or another, mostly of rather a transitory nature whilst they decide what they are going to do for a living.
When my pet python is not in my flight bag; I always carry either a cosh or a handgun. Most senior cabin stewards of my acquaintance are more than familiar with the more obscure martial arts. Please may the hostesses stay with the drinks trolley and not involve themselves in more obfuscatorial matters.:p

markflyer6580

22nd Dec 2005, 18:43

Brave man:} :ouch:

obfuscatorial thats a good word will remember that for puzzles and such:E

cavortingcheetah

22nd Dec 2005, 18:45

;)
Damnation, but it needs to be said! What!:D

amy_lou34

22nd Dec 2005, 18:46

Now you can't be serious :mad:

cavortingcheetah

22nd Dec 2005, 19:03

;)
Actually, yes.:E

amy_lou34

22nd Dec 2005, 19:07

Thats not good CRM. So if I ever see an engine on fire etc...I'll just carry on down the cabin with my drinks trolley :p

cavortingcheetah

23rd Dec 2005, 06:21

;) Well, what on earth are you going to be able to do to help?:confused:

tiggerific_69

23rd Dec 2005, 07:36

Getoutofmygalley,if you read what i said,i am the JUNIOR crew member on board,not the senior crew member,i disagreed with what the captain was doing but it was not my place to stop him.it is a Safety AND SOP issue,and these are all there for everyones benefit to work in a safe environment,NOT so that people can bend the rules.
I know its great going in the flight deck,being cabin crew i am priviledged to have sat in the jumpseat a few times,and i would have loved to as a kid.we still would have let him poke his head round on the ground,after all the Main door to the aircraft is open then and we're not stuck up at fl370.
but surely,and unfortunately these days we do have to think like this regardless of the job the groundstaff do,the captain opening the flight deck door during the flight was compromising the safety of the crew and other passengers onboard,not knowing who you have got on board your flight?

Crossunder

23rd Dec 2005, 08:07

the captain opening the flight deck door during the flight was compromising the safety of the crew and other passengers onboard...

Jeeez. What's wrong with you? Are you the kind of person who blindly follows any rule som idiot makes up, no matter what? The point here is that the captain is the captain. It is HIS/HER call - not yours. Never will be (hopefully). The whole point of this rule is to prevent hi-jackers from accessing the cockpit. A kid wantig a glimpse at the flight deck is not a threat to anyone's safety on board. It is an airmanship/good judgement call by the captain, to let this kid in. The greatest victory won by Osama and his gang, was to make us all hysterical and afraid of each other. You, my friend, is helping him!!! Shame on you :-(
Goes to show that you have no sense of logic or risk assessment/management. You will always be able to spot "danger" in any situation, at any time, if you are hysterical enough. It is our - the pilots' - job, to decide what's safe ENOUGH for our aircraft. SOPs can never cover everything, and they are often wrong. In this case, it's just to pay lip service to the stupid american (and now, sadly, the european) rule-makers. And SOPs quite often take away the airmanship part in our job.
Had this been a large bloke with a big beard and a turban, then no, stay away from the flight deck, but your captain was 100pct correct in allowing this KID access to the flight deck. And did you get hi-jacked? Nope...

amy_lou34

23rd Dec 2005, 08:18

So all terrorists have a big beard and turban??? Not very PC, and not very true. It's a pity they aren't that easy to spot.

261A

23rd Dec 2005, 08:21

The UK rules set by DFT are clear that it is NOT allowed and it should not be allowed.
Most passengers on board would feel much more comfortable if the flight deck door was closed at all times and any visits whilst on the ground.
Captains have to follow the rules of their airline and the government and they cannot be bent just for some kid.
The security in the terminal can never be 100% - there are hundreds if not thousands of people working on the apron around aircraft and who knows what they have got hidden. :confused:

amy_lou34

23rd Dec 2005, 08:22

Finally someone agrees !!

tiggerific_69

23rd Dec 2005, 08:26

firstly there is no need to be so damn rude.i asked for advice on whether i should write a report,not your opinion on my judgement of a situation.
if you were walking through London on July 7th,would you have been able to pick those bombers out of a crowd?NO.so when i am stuck in a tube at 37000ft i think being strict about who goes in the flight deck and who doesnt is fine.after all,you seem to be missing the point.THE SOP'S AND RULES ARE THERE FOR A REASON.its a victory for Osama and his gang if they manage to terrorise more people,surely keeping everyone out of the flight deck who is unauthorised is just being safe and not taking any risks regardless of how big or small.
Also one other thing you obviously didnt read,was that the kid would have been allowed to see the flight deck once on the ground,which i am happy with,but when myself and my colleagues are flying we want to FLY SAFELY and not put ourselves at ANY risk.
and thank you for judging my risk assesment/management qualities.they helped me out JUST FINE when my aircraft went sliding 161m off the end of a runway so i shall continue to use them as they are,thank you.

tiggerific_69

23rd Dec 2005, 08:34

THANK YOU 261A!!!!!!

he wasnt a \"little boy\" he was at least 15 by which age i feel he would be old enough to make decisions himself.
the senior cabin crew member agreed with me that it shouldnt be done in flight but who are we to challenge the captain unless it is done through the correct channels?
as you said,everybody is allowed to express ther concerns,this is what i am doing

261A

23rd Dec 2005, 09:03

tiggerific_69
You are right to be seriously worried about something like this.
I hope you all read my previous post about my flight back from Turkey in the summer - the door was LEFT open until take off and even that is a bit of a risk as most of the passengers who saw it including me were quite worried.

No one should go to the flight deck once the plane has started its pushback till when it has landed and is back at a stand.
The rules are there for a reason - as someone else said there could be football hooligans who could just as easily take advantage of this situation.
The security in aviation will NEVER be 100% too many people work in close proximity to the aircraft and I bet a small number of them actually get security scanned before they get onto the tarmac. If the terminal security fails then the locked flight deck door is the last deterrant and it probably would and could stop the aircraft from being hijacked.

tiggerific_69

23rd Dec 2005, 09:19

exactly my point.at the airport where i am based,i know the Sun newspaper made some undercover investigation and exposed the security there,i myself have got comb thru secuirty in my handbag which has a long metal spike on that is used for doing a parting in your hair,but could take someones eye or,or if stabbed in the right place,probably kill someone,and no one at security questioned me,although they have questioned a funny shape perfume bottle :confused:
i dont see why people are so against me on this,surely safety is paramount to everyone in this job these days,as i said i really dont mind people seeing the flight deck ON THE GROUND.

tiggerific_69

23rd Dec 2005, 09:30

firstly why do you think i would have a bruised ego?as i have already said i dont mind people going in the flight deck once we are on the ground.
in answer to your first question,it was the senior cabin crew member who asked
in answer to your second question,i expressed my opinion to the senior cabin crew,who agreed with me that she wasnt comfortable with it,but if the captain was happy with it then let him carry on
in answer to your third question,i never said i knew better than the captain,i am simply following SOPs
in answer to your fourth question,i didnt say i thought the boy would hijack the plane,if you read what i said,you dont know who is on board your aircraft and what they are capable of THUS there being a lock door policy

Volmet South

23rd Dec 2005, 10:15

i myself have got comb thru security in my handbag which has a long metal spike on that is used for doing a parting in your hair,but could take someones eye or,or if stabbed in the right place,probably kill

So you used your professional judgement and assessed that you were not a risk to security or did you apply the rules to the letter and dispose of the item before entering the aircraft ?

Rules are for the blind obedience of fools and for the guidance of wiser (wo)men.

tiggerific_69

23rd Dec 2005, 16:25

thank you I-FORD
Volmet i left the comb in an envelope in my dropfile until i finished my duty

cavortingcheetah

23rd Dec 2005, 18:03

;) This thread, which would now appear to feature in two almost full length scenarios, is beginning to become mildly irritating.
Branson's buffoons advertise for cabin staff over 5ft 2', able to speak and write English and with a GCSE pass. Aged more than nineteen years, too!
Well, bless my little soul, that scrapes the barrel. But then, initiative was hardly a product of the state education system.:eek: Nor has it been a trait highly reflected in the cigar cabins of my past experience.
Any right minded cabin flunkey upon discovering that the flight deck was abandoned would perhaps drift back to the galley for a fag, until, that is, she allowed herself to ruminate through the turgid vacancies of her brain and conclude that the devilish handsome chap in first class with the Jeppesen bag was an accomplished aviator who could, for a fee, rescue them all, ply her with Deutz 1988 and engage in boarding antics of a sort that might have made Ramage blush.
On that note, for the nonce, toodle pip. I should say, What!
:hmm:

xabi200

23rd Dec 2005, 18:26

Hi all,

How can you even think about reporting the captain!!!!!

He is a co-worker/a friend, would you like to be put in trouble??More over by somebody you work with.

I can't believe what I read.

Close cockpit policy is rubbish anyway, 9/11 the door was close, the pilots opened it up when the terorist started killing the cabin staff.

I do like it when the cabin crew come in and out of the cockpit, we do a bit of conversation,get to know each other. If makes the team work much nicer. It is very pleasing to see someone else from time to time,instedof being only the two of use all the time.

You guys are just paranoiac.

No wonder the job is becoming worse and worse with people like you.

For info in my company nobody respects the close door policy and I hate flying with the few captain who apply the close door policy.

Let's all live in a world where nobody speaks/sea each other and we only communicate thru machines.

So do pilots have to watch their back all the time coz some flight attendant might stab them in the back!!!???

I am appaled.

I hope to never have to work with such flight attendant.

cavortingcheetah

23rd Dec 2005, 18:35

;) I think that you will find that while most pilots are in the game for life, most flight attendants are in the game for, well, a little while.:=
Smart chap, Odysseus, rather more than a passing knowledge of Trojan Horses and the sting in that tail.:hmm:

tiggerific_69

24th Dec 2005, 08:40

Xabi there is nothiing wrong with Crew going in and out of the flight deck because we can close the door behind us however this lad had the door wide open for everyone to have access to.
Regardless of him being a colleague,i want to feel safe with whoever i fly with,and that did not make me feel safe.
cavorting cheetah,i may not be cabin crew all my life,but i have just started studying for my PPL,so i will definitely be in the industry for life.

261A

24th Dec 2005, 09:07

I thought that the flight deck door had to be locked and if it is then how do cabin crew get in there for whatever reason and how do captain/FO get out of there?

Wouldn't you have a serious security problem if the cabin crew have a key or whatever to unlock the door and some al qaeda has got a gun to your head?!

Just curious. :O

Colonal Mustard

24th Dec 2005, 09:43

Dont the DFT make some rules that are just unworkable!!!

have a quiet word in the cap`ns ear asking for him to clarify "His" position regarding allowing people to enter the cockpit find out what his reasoning is
(not in a stuffy kinda way)

THEN

explain that you felt uncomfortable with what happened and (heres the important part) EXPLAIN to him that you would rather this didnt occur in the future whilst your his oppo...ask him to come to some sort of middle ground and hey presto TEAMWORK in action

How many times have we all said that if only "he" had spoke to me first before going to the boss:ok:

he may say he point blankly refuses to agree with you but i bet no kid will visit the pit again;)

cavortingcheetah

24th Dec 2005, 10:56

;) Well, how rude must one become in order to be awarded the mince pie of the year?
A casual read through some of the prose which has preceeded this little message would confirm my darkest thought, which is that cabin attendants these days flunked out as secretaries on account of their dreadful and totally nonexistent concepts of what was garammer all about then!

:p

Probably can't evacuate much either.?
The only people who should ever be in the cockpit are the men flying the machine and, from time to time, the trolley dolly with a coffee or two!:=

tiggerific_69

24th Dec 2005, 13:31

CavortingCheetah
for your information,us "trolley dollys" are there for a reason and it is NOT to serve flight deck coffee,and with attitude like yours id rather they went thirsty.i do my job to contribute towards a safe flight along with the flight crew,not to serve tea and coffee.if it was really to do that,id work in a cafe.
And i was perfectly capable of conducting an evacuation in August so please keep your nasty and discriminatory thoughts to yourself if you have nothing constructive to say about the original post i made.

Colonal Mustard that seems like good advice,i will have a word next time i see him,you know how it is you dont see people for months in this job!

261A,the door is locked from the inside by the flight deck,either on the door,or a switch on all the controls somewhere. :)

cavortingcheetah

24th Dec 2005, 16:56

:hmm:

A reaction quite as predictable as the trash stowed in the emergency exits the last time I flew with those who are not quite so holy.
I think that here we have a good illustration as to why cabin staff should not involve themselves in matters rather above their station.:{

amy_lou34

24th Dec 2005, 22:44

I cannot believe what I have just read. YOU want us to respect the Flight Deck (which by the way most of us do) but you don't have an ounce of respect for cabin crew. Your attitude is disgusting. And no we're not all "flunked out secretaries" many of us have a higher education up to A-level/degree level. I'm sure, cavortingcheetah, that you are just a minority..all of the pilots I have flown with have respect for their colleagues whether it be the FO or the cabin crew. After all, if they were incapacitated in any way, it is us who have to deal with the emergency. So if I ever get the pleasure of flying with you and you become incapacitated, I'll leave you to it while I carry on with the drinks service. The question that Tiggerific initially asked has been overlooked and has turned into a slanging match. We all have a job to do, and we all should respect eachother....whether we be cabin crew, flight deck or the cleaners!

Merry Christmas!

And by the way....no one stows bags at my emergency exits

Captain Stable

25th Dec 2005, 00:25

cheetah won't be posting further on this thread.

I hope he and all other contributors here have a Happy Christmas.

tiggerific_69

26th Dec 2005, 11:25

thank you capt stable,as pointed out,my original question has been overlooked

Bealzebub

26th Dec 2005, 14:17

No it hasn't tiggerific. Did you read the responses some of us went to the trouble of writing ?

Dream Land

26th Dec 2005, 14:40

Tiger,

You may want to look over the posts again, yes you could appoint yourself to be the SOP undercover police for your airline, or you could make life easy for yourself and do something like making known your observation and concerns to your immediate supervisor and let him/her take the appropriate steps. I myself consider filing a report as an absolute last resort, bad CRM.:ok:

ukatco_535

26th Dec 2005, 14:43

Edited due to my inability to read!!

Ask your Senior Steward their opinion, as it seems (having re-rea your question properly) that you had a discussion before asking the pilot anyways.- thats what they are there for.

However I would not go down an official channel of reporting in the first instance.

As for other replies to your post - YES the DFT ruling may be a little harsh now however, the law is black and white in this instance.... there is no way a Captain could say that he took this course of action in the interests of flight safety (the ONLY legal reason he can use to break a laid down law, and indeed company SOP).

As for saying 'it was only a young lad' - how many times did the IRA (terrorists) shoot at soldiers then hand their gun to a young lad so they could make their escape, knowing the soldier would not shoot the kid, and would not shoot the terrorist as he no longer had a gun in his hand and therefore could not be engaged under the rules of engagement.

(The soldier would also chase after the gun, as to leave it for future use would be a folly)

Terrorists have and continue to stoop to any level to do what they have to, and that could include getting a young, idealistic friend to ask if they could see inside the cockpit, whilst the aircraft in is in flight.

It may seem far-fetched but how many people would have believed the scenario of several people taking flying lessons, then simultaneously hijacking aircraft and flying them into buildings??

amy_lou34

26th Dec 2005, 15:08

I think if you read Tiggerific's post again, you'll notice that the Captain was asked if the boy could "pop his head round after landing and all of the passengers have been disembarked".

Harves

27th Dec 2005, 00:39

First of all hello everybody and I hope that you have all had a great Christmas so far....and on those lines...I hope that you will forgive me any poor spelling, grammar and missreading....but I have to say that I have found this thread slightly remarkable on many fronts.

If I could first say that I can see things from both sides, having been cabin crew whilst trying to get my break post F ATPL. I am also a little older than the average Junior Cabin Crew and F/O that I am now.... meaning that it can be a little easier to speak your mind with a little less experience.

But my main point is that I am a little concerned on a couple (or more) points with the replies received from the questioner to what I see as a reasonable question. From my slightly hung over scan of the thread, I only picked up on two completely fair responces(and please forgive me those of you that I hope were there aswell)...and they were from ukatco and colonelmustard.

I hate the locked door policy.....without gushing too much .. I was a kid once and from that first flight deck visit I never looked back...I am gutted we don't have those times anymore and if it were purely a guideline or recomendation I would be the first to encourage flexibility...but it is sadly not the case. It may seem slightly strange that we open the door to get coffee or have our 20 minute checks, or even go to the toilet, but we can't open up to let a youungster in. The fact of the matter is that if aircraft design and money allowed..this probably wouldn't happen either.

Now granted this is probably all an over reaction...but would you want to be the one to make that call....I know that I wouldn't.

Should the Captain have allowed the flight deck visit whilst aloft?....The rules say no...should it make a difference he was young (15 apparently)...again the rules say no.......if I were a Captain and had to decide on who were a terrorist threat and who was not....I would say no...In a way the rules help us, in particular the captain, to avoid those awkward decisions.

As an FO I am fully aware of the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) so if I am ever concerned, will mention it in a CRM friendly way.... to begin with atleast...once your head is in the door...you have that "luxury" too as cabin crew.

We then have the them and us situation which I thought was diminishing with Flight Deck and Cabin Crew.......I have been astonished by the comments that have been made with regards to our colleagues that have required people resorting to saying ... would you rather us carry on serving drinks rather than mention an engine fire...atleast something along those lines...I hope that the comments were meant with a pinch of salt from the pilot concerned.

Now...going on to my time as cabin crew....as any junior will know...the senior can often be a pain in the neck...but usually comes with a fountain of knowledge and experience...not to mention the get out clause lol.....the following I will admit is SOP's rather than solid regs as I know it, but in my airline, the SCCM had a lot of clout withe the Captain and could easily ground a flight...as could a united team of course. I am not suggesting that this was required in this case...far from it..but just making the piont to certain previous comments made.

Okay...I am more than aware that I have gone on for far too long and haven't answered the question......so here goes...

Had I been you as a junior, I would have gone through the direct chain of command knowing this was not the norm when you asked the correct question of the Captain and got a non normal reply...ie SCCM. In my experience..a good Senior will have the skills and often personal relationships to just nudge the flight deck crew in the right direction.....usually end of story....if not..yes the FO is the next recourse but that is so unrealistic in the real world as not worth discussing...unless you can grab him or her on the way to the toilet.

And you will be pleased to know that is it from me....except to say should you report it?......I would say fine time for a group discussion of the days flight . Just remember, the Captain of an aircraft is only in that seat for a reason. He or She has many preasures that don't just involve the safe operation of the aircraft. We are all responsible for our company in ways of finance and PR. The flight deck is rarely seen but does have equal or similar preasures...but at the end of the day...safety is the number 1 for us all and if you feel that really can't be resolved having followed all avenues...then you have no choice as I see it but to voice your views on paper....much as I hate to say it.

Such a shame it has come to this...I do wish it were different, but these are the times we live in.

Happy New Year to you all anyway and here is to that magnificent team in the air!!!

Ropey Pilot

29th Dec 2005, 09:54

I could add my entire 2p's worth to this but a lot of it has been mentioned before if one picks through hard enough but I would like to say:

1) A lot of people here seem to think that the Capt must have some sort of special powers for detecting terrorists (beard, turban etc) and as long as one can prove he/she is under 16 years of age (the international minimum legal age for martyrdom) then they are alright - as this lad was 15 (and quite possibly over 6foot tall like my 15 year old cousin) he should be ok:rolleyes:

2) All those who state they are going to let kids visit the flight deck every flight will presumably lead to the ultimate situation of little kiddywinks standing open eyed by the open door on every flight. They are not the problem - now Mr/Ms terrorist knows that on every flight as soon as the 6 yr old darling is standing in the doorway the gig is on! Imagine the kudos if they could pull it off again with all the security measures 'in force' (although being ignored by Capts who know better) - a lot of people will never feel safe enough to fly again (rightly or wrongly)

3) and most importantly in my view is the problem that the Capt stated he was going to act illegally by not sticking to this particular SOP. When the crew told him they were not happy with this he went and did it anyway! That is my main concern here. I can see very little gain (except alienating the crew) from this action. I can see occasions to ignore SOPs - there are probably occasions where breaking the law is acceptable; but in this case I can see no gain from doing so.At the very least I would have expected a discussion with his point of view to try and convince me why my complicity in an illegal act should be justified (cue lots of get back in your box and be quiet - when you are a Capt etc.:rolleyes: )

4) and finally.... No I wouldn't report him. If you feel strongly I would think about talking to him, your fleet/base Capt, or possibly chief pilot (all depending on company size etc) but informally and verbally not in writing. One of these people with more experience will be able to advise you as opposed to this large collection of barrack room lawyers (including me). I know one post expressed incredulity that you would even consider reporting a colleague and friend - but from what I understand that colleague effectively ordered you to break the law against your wishes - some friend! But only you were there and know the way in which this was done so only you can determine what level of action is appropriate.

ps for those who only give validity to opinions once you state who you are I am a relatively new airline FO but with some years of military flying (in the left seat)and a good few more in command of soldiers on the ground. From that I learned that the Queen may put the rank on your shoulder, and with it the authority and responsibility; but it is far easier to wield that with respect of your colleagues/subordinates and that respect must be earned by your actions it is not given with the rank; I don't see why the airline industry is any different.

Captain Stable

29th Dec 2005, 16:50

I am worried that cheetah's apology might have got lost, so I take the onus on myself of reprinting it:-Dear Captain Stable and others,

In a rather more humble frame of mind I would be obliged if you would post this apology on the necessary thread.
My comments were perhaps uncalled for and certainly might have caused offence. At the time,I must admit that such was possibly my intention. I retract my horrible innuendoes and would hope that this apology will be accepted by all concerned.
Very sorry cavorting cheetah.I am glad that cheetah saw fit to send this when more sober counsel prevailed, and also he showed the maturity to apologise honourably. Would other posters please take note - good CRM and professionalism (both qualities which we are supposed to demonstrate in our working lives) are approved of here. Behaviour which falls short of this will be frowned on and I and other Mods will react accordingly.

tiggerific_69

2nd Jan 2006, 18:27

Hi MzGuilty,i think it was because he had snapped at me earlier in the day over something which has affected me personally,and i think that had this not happened,i would have said something to him
too much time has probably gone by to report him now,but if it happens again with the same captain i wont think twice about speaking to him
thanks

derekl

2nd Jan 2006, 22:11

I am not an airline employee, so I have oberserver status here only.

It seems to me that there are three issues here:

1) what the rules are for flight deck access

2) what constitutes good security practice

3) aircrew management and command chain.

I am not qualified to comment on (3), other than in the most general sense that it appears to me that as the Captain is in command, his word presumably should be the final call in any situation (which does not mean that he's correct, of course).

As for (1), many rules are applied after disasters so that the authorities can be seen to be "doing something about it". There are countless examples of this, including the private target pistol ban after Dunblane -- crime with handguns has soared, the ban made no difference other than, contrarily, to increase gun crime. Check the Home Office statistics.

Now (2) is interesting, partly because of (3). The simple fact is that whatever is done to keep terrorists off the flight deck doesn't really matter at all in terms of flight security. If the terrorists want to attack aircraft, they will simply go about it another way. If the terrorists want to use aircraft as flying bombs again, they can simply do the same as they did last time. The 9/11 flight deck doors were shut, after all. The flight crew opened the doors, as I understand it, after the terrorists started killing the CC. The difference is that now the flight deck crew may take a personal decision to allow that to happen, knowing that the alternative may cause even greater carnage.

I suspect that visitors to the flight deck, be they boys of 15 or (in my sad case, 62) have little or no effect on actual flight safety -- other than people may believe that somehow it's "safer". The fact is, it probably isn't.

Good security comes from personal awareness -- hence the Captain's judgement, in the case under discussion, seems to have been good (even if it may have been against the rules, and, again, I simply don't know ebough to comment). Why was his judgement good? Nobody got hurt.

cavortingcheetah

3rd Jan 2006, 13:51

:uhoh:

I take my little furry head between both paws and peer carefully over the parapet out into the bushveldt, conscious of the fact that out there in the dark, behind the stable door, lurk many perils.
It seems to me that, had T69 filed a report, her name might subsequently be covered with perhaps a certain degree of opprobrium, much the more so as she is a junior crew member and also possibly was acting under a degree of personal strain that day.
I am sure that no one wants to operate in a company tarred with a reputation as a cabin crew member in front of whom one must watch one's back. Such an invidious reputation can fly like the wind through crew rooms and profits no one at all!
It all depends upon the flight deck crew of course, but I should have thought that one possible way out of the predicament might have been a word to the First Officer at an appropriate moment, an avenue which, so far I think, has been unexplored. After all, it is perhaps rather more up to that individual to raise an objection with the skipper in the very first instance than it is within the purlieu of a junior cabin attendant.
Indeed, there might be some out there who would deem it the First Officer's responsibility as much as the Captain's to preserve the inegrity of the flight deck.:hmm:

overstress

25th Jan 2006, 22:58

Sorry if I've missed the point here. If a F/A wants to keep all feathers unruffled, if a pax asks to visit the flight deck IN FLIGHT, they could either

refuse - upset pax?
or
promise to 'ask the captain' - of course they never actually do that, then later explain that it was not possible

Whatever, F/A's :-x should know the rules and not waste the pilot's time by asking them if they'll take visits when they know the rules forbid it

Tigs2

29th Jan 2006, 14:39

Oh my oh my
I have just read the last four pages of this thread. The world has gone mad. Everything in flying has always been about effective risk management. A dreadful event occurred with 9/11 and some knee-jerk regulations were brought in to appease the masses. Do you really think the locked door is going to stop the determined terrorist? Many of you flightcrew out there were probably recruited in to flying because of the magic of a cockpit visit. The regulations have NOT improved our onboard saftey one iota. I personally think that the closed door is detrimental to arousal levels etc particularly on long haul.

As for members of the Cabin Crew who are concerned with this 'Gross Breech' of regulations that may have compromised safety, there are far more pressing issues to consider when it comes to your safety.

We are now in the situation where we have created a travelling public who are paranoid about the effects of weapons such as 'nile files and nail clippers'
(a ballpoint pen or fountain pen is in comparison a very dangerous tool should someone wish to use it so)
we must try and cut through our toughened beef and chicken with plastic knives and forks, yet (certainly in business class), we serve wine and champagne in glasses, and have glass bottles on the trolley!!
We randomly have our shoes x-rayed because of some drugged up p*****k
who was a sandwich short of a picnic trying to set light to explosive crammed in his shoe.

This is not the correct way to implement a safe environment. If we are relying on inflight procedures to stop these events it is to late down the chain. We need properly qualified people to PROFILE passengers and to monitor body language cues when they are around the gate (it works in capturing drug smugglers), someone who is about to die for their cause wil be oozing body language cues saying just that, and random 10% searches and banning nail files will not stop them. Lets start looking at the real safety issues and not crucifying some Captain who used his discretion.
Tiggeriffic if you noticed the door remained open while the lad was in the cockpit, there is nothing wrong with saying Captain, do you mind if i close the door etc.

Cavorting Cheetah
I have to say your remarks , and the subsequent reactions made me howl with laughter. Sorry that the age of banter has dissappeared, it used to be that people would give as good as the got, not so now i think.