What if your captain goes down 50' below minimums?

[sideloader]

Hi,
I was disscusing with some coleagues,what to do if you are shooting an ILS in solid IMC and way before minima,your captain tells you that he we'll try to go 50' below minima to land.

A few folks mentioned that they won't approve that verbally,but let the captain to go below minima.

Others mentioned to get the controls as soon as the captain began to bust the minima.

Any opinions?

Thanks

[elcapo]

Very simple, just use the word go-around once you are at minima and if he doesn't do it just report it as I am sure something will happen. The rules are the rules.

[No_Speed_Restriction]

just make sure you make/announce all standard calls for the purpose of the CVR. as pnf, isnt it your duty to "take control" if the pf continues?:confused:

[cavortingcheetah]

;) I think somehow, that if you try to take control of an aeroplane at minima or at a height below say 200ft agl; you are asking for a load of very dangerous trouble.

But there are other ways to salve the almost insatiable desire of some Fos to intrude into areas that are especially grey and which should be left that way.

The scenario goes like this. Captain flying:

FO: Minima, nothing seen.
CPT: What was that.
FO. Minima, nothing seen.
CPT. Going around.......

That's your fifty foot and dignity all around.

I remember the peace and tranquillity which prevailed at London City. Fos were neither allowed to land nor to take off, such a load off their minds.:D

[ifleeplanes]

If your the F/O and your company operate it as the FO flys and the Capt lands then hit the TOGA and go around....

[alf5071h]

See P.A.C.E. (www.spatiald.wpafb.af.mil/2001/Besco1.pdf) Probing, Alerting, Challenging, Emergency Warning. To intervene or not to intervene? The co-pilot's catch 22.

[No_Speed_Restriction]

cheetah, I would expect the FO's that I fly with to have the balls to execute a go-around from the Capt as PF if the flight was continued on-purpose below DA. Thats the rule.

[Old Smokey]

A suggestion -

At the minima, and still IMC - loudly call "Minima, NO Contact" (or whatever your standard phraseology is).

If the other pilot (Captain or F/O) continues below the minima, assume Pilot Incapacitation, take control, announce it clearly, and execute a missed approach.

He/She can rant and rave at a later time, but the FDR will back you up.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[No_Speed_Restriction]

at the end of the day, we shouldnt be discussing this to such a full extent; the proof that we are discussing it goes to show that there is a probability of DA infringment where people need to understand that its an actual life saving height/altitude and not a number chosen out of the blue.stick to the numbers, dont infringe.simple.not for any of us to think otherwise.make it automatic people.

[skiesfull]

If your Captain announces his/her intention to break the law as well as company SOP's, then before it gets to the control wrestling stage, why not announce quite clearly to him/her that you will be VERY unhappy if a go-around is not flown according to the airlines' requirements, at minimums. It may avoid a load of trouble, though you may end up buying your own beer in the evening!

[No_Speed_Restriction]

it saddens and worries me that we have to discuss(although educational) what I would class as a "no brainer".

[XRJ]

I thought people like cavorting cheetah didn't actually exist anymore. i would suggest that professional flight crew wouldn't brief either formally or informally an intention to go below minima without the required visual reference. And secondly there is no place for the single pilot mentality that Cavorting Cheetah clearly advocates. And as an F/o i'm pleased that i have always flown with captains who don't act in this way.

[catchup]

One posted already

Think rate. Don't think.....

[The Good Samaritan]

:ok: XRJ you summed it all up. Professional pilots do not brief neither plan to go below DH without the proper visual refrences in sight. Going below minima is stealing honey when bee is not around, you might get away with it once, twice, thrice but without knowing you are developing a baaad habit which will sting you one day when you least expected.

In our company any crew member calls "GO AROUND" at minima, IT IS A GO AROUND. As a training Cpt said, Execute the Go Around and after reaching a safe altitude then discuss reasons.

[alexban]

We do it like this,at cat II or III:
200' above minima ,fo looks out.Cpt is on the instruments.The FO whatch and tells what he sees outside the a/c.The aircraft 'tells' MINIMA .
if untill minima auto-call nothing heard from the f/o or only non-landing items detected then the cpt announces GO-AROUND and pushes TOGA.
At low vis autoland is mandatory.
So the FO won't say anything like NO CONTACT ,he says nothing if he sees nothing outside.If nothing heard from him,at minima call from the automatic voice ,the cpt initiates the go-around.

[cavortingcheetah]

;)

Some one expressed sorrow at the discussion on this thread.
I think he's right. Perhaps it really shouldn't be happening. I also think that there's a little caveat here.
I am not so sure that I take the original post too seriously and having said that, would be reluctant to enter into detailed discussion as to what does, might or even has happened in a real situation. But then again, I've recently had a brush with PC. PC, with concurrent journalistic peril, as if that's not a great surprise, and so am a teeny bit twitchy. :p
Incidentally, I have been a fan of the monitored approach for many years. That's the one where the Fo, who can often fly more accurately than his aged Captain flies the approach and the Captain then lands the beast.:D

[ssg]

This thread is just another reminder of why the crew concept as trained these days doesnt work.

-SSG

[ThinkRate]

catchup:
One posted already

Think rate. Don't think.....

Right :O :p

TR
-------------------------------------------------
ThinkRate! ThinkRate! Don't Think!

[rigpiggy]

Company doesn't pay me to break minima. However, if I'm down to a min fuel/uncontained fire etc... I'll fly an ILS to Zero/Zero ought to land. That's in an emergency only otherwise G/A and either shoot another, one fuel permitting or go to our alternate. My company does PMA's and we find that it's best that the F/O stays on the instruments down to 100' while the Captain monitors the visuals "runway/lights in sight" from Minimum's so as to have not only required references but also extra cues for landing. The F/O stays on instruments right thru the rollout.

[Captain Stable]

I agree with everyone who said that a professional pilot does not brief to break the law in going below minima, and would never consider doing so.

I personally would have a discussion later with anyone who did so, and would not hesitate to report them for a second offence.

Like V1, I consider DA not as a "Decision" point but as a "Decision already made" point. In other words, unless you can already see the lights when that call comes, you are going around. Similarly, if V1 has been called, you are taking off.

I have spent much of my life successfully avoiding becoming a statistic. I don't intend to buck the trend either by doing something dumb, difficult or dangerous myself, or permitting anyone in the same aircraft as me acting similarly.

[ssg]

Stable,

What you siad is right, makes sense, and is critical in some decision processes.

You decide before hand what to do.... and I will add to this, under circumstances where there is a time constraint.

I will explain...in skydving, statistics are replete with guys that passing 2000 feet with no canopy over thier head, tried to figure it out all the way down, rather then pull thier reserve.

Another...the FO and captain arguing all the way down an approach to the scene ot the accident.

and others.

There are exeptions, and sometimes a sharp pilot will be able to make a decision fast. For example.passing V1 and going is considered a moot point these days, and they don't want people passing V1, seeing a firelight, trying to stop, and crashing at the end of the runway, so they keep pushing the 'go after V1 concept.'

Assume you have 9000 feet of runway in a plane that has a balanced field of 3000 feet that day, right after V1 you get a fire light, are you going to rotate, fly up into the fog, VMC, on fire, and try to come around for the approach, all the while trying to shut down engines and put out the fire. The decision is easy for me in that one, but trying to 'figure it out' right at V1 I think is silly.

Another issue is the 70/50 rule of not having 70% of take off speed by 50% of the runway lenght. I know an experience airline captain took a GA jet to the end of an 8000 ft runway and horsed it off, trying to get to V1. He had a locked up brake shuttle valve.

He was so focused on V1 that he failed to see the other factors.

Most rules, regs, ect are set up for the average pilot, average ability, and they don't want people to think, just do what is proven, and they are probably right, 99% of the time. But take the Swiss air flight over Nova Scotia, FO wanted to get the plane down, but the capt took his time dumping fuel ect..his decision didn't take into account the urgency (time constraint)of the situation that the FO saw...bad decision, but he did what he was trained to do.

I believe we as pilots need to more the robots, simply going to a checklist per what the problem is, we need to know why, adapt to the circumstance, and make the appropriate decision.

[411A]

<<Another issue is the 70/50 rule of not having 70% of take off speed by 50% of the runway lenght.>>

With todays modern turbofan powered aircraft, with their generally very good runway performance, this may be true.
Now, if we look back a few years, and have a close look at straight-pipe powered really heavy old 707's, up close and personal with the far end of the ruway was a regular occurance.

Been there, done that, have the T shirt and the hat...and the pucker factor was quite surprising....:ooh: :ooh:

Then, the resulting climb (or rather, lack thereof) would get your attention straightway.
No more than 400 ft/min at V2 to V2+10 was not uncommon...with all 4 turning.:}

[Jsap]

Its very interesting all your sayings which i read carefully.
I am a new FO and this question and some others are very common in airlines interviews

I can say at the end of the day we cant have a correct answer but a lot correct ones in the individuals point of view.

Those individual ideas and points make us to have a wider look to the problem and gives use more ways of how to solve it.

I liked the 70 50 rule.
The deaf captain was very smart without bringing the FO in a difficult situation. But if this comes to me in my career even if i see after he says "what was that" i would still say nothing seen.
A smart captain would understand.


thnx to all
Jsap :suspect:

[Radar Identified]

I suppose at minima when you call nothing seen and the captain chooses to ignore and you are not happy, then you could call on the radio "going Around".

If he/she does land off the approach ATC will ask questions and he/she knows this so my guess is he/she will initiate a Go-Around.
He/she wont be too happy but who cares he/she was being ignorant in the first place ignoring you. Whatever argument he/she may have it is not right. There is no reason to go below minima other than a last chance scenario. Thats why we have minima.

[bothok_teri]

Just do your SOP
then report your chief, that's all guy:sad:

[Mr Moustache]

In this day and age (especially in the age of the CVR) I cannot believe anyone would brief to fly below mimimums deliberately in a non emergency situation.
The only thing which is more stupid is considering wrestling the captain for control of the aircraft below 200ft in marginal weather conditions.

Think safety, live long and prosper.

[Clandestino]

There's no need to wrestle with your capt, just press stick priority button.:}

Now there's a reason why everyone should fly Airbus. Myself included.

[cavortingcheetah]

:)

Please excuse my limited knowledge of the Airbus but I thought there existed a set of circumstances in which the machine system itself pressed the stick priority button, effectively emasculating both pilots, sometimes with a rather catastrophic result.:hmm:

[BizJetJock]

In my years teaching IR's I always used to make sure I spent an hour going through PANS-OPS with students and showing them how the procedures were designed and how much obstacle clearance there is(n't) at DA/MDA. I would watch them go pale and see in the future a distinct eagerness to start the missed approach /[I]above/[I] minima....:oh:

[Captain Stable]

Excellent point, BJJ - I have adopted the same practice in the past, adding extras such as pointing out the likely sink rate (or lack or best climb) if they are just a few knots above or below blue line, and pointing out the loss of performance in a turn, etc. etc.

Worth it just to see how the colour fades... :O

[Ananas]

I had that problem when I was still a junior FO (some time ago already).
We were on an approach (forgot were) in solid IMC till the ground. The plane was Cat3C, the Capt was and the ILS was also.
Very unfortunate, that the company didn't have time to schedule me on the course yet, so my minimum was 200' AGL.
The Capt went straight through the 200' in solid IMC. I didn't feel like starting a brawl for the controls at that height, so I only told him if he was still aware I was not Cat3C yet. That was for the CVR, because the guy was able to land it in these condition (physically, medically and technicly), so was the plane and the runway.
I was actually the limiting factor and as I was PNF, was not really contributing to the landing.

After that I asked for a hearing (unofficial) with the Chief Pilot and the Capt about the problem.
I never heard a thing about it anymore, and the Capt didn't hold any grudge towards me in the years after that.

[jonny dangerous]

CavortingCheetah, is that an urban myth, or did it really happen. I am aware of the sticks cancelling each other's inputs...oh wait a minute, you're joking aren't you? Aren't you?:ugh:

[FL050]

I also have heard that this questions gets asked on interviews, and what I personally would do if I was the PNF:

Read off altitudes like usual to make sure he is aware of it, once minimums are hit ask him if he has the runway environment in sight to make a safe and secure landing - if he says no, and its obvious we dont have it in sight, then I will announce GA and push the TO/GA button and report to tower.

No way he is going to be able to land with GA thrust even if he is dead set on landing. He can sort out his problems with the Chief Pilot once we land and let the CP listen to the cockpit recordings.

[wileydog3]

:)
Please excuse my limited knowledge of the Airbus but I thought there existed a set of circumstances in which the machine system itself pressed the stick priority button, effectively emasculating both pilots, sometimes with a rather catastrophic result.:hmm:

Interesting choice of verbs, 'emasculate'.

Contrary to the assumptions of some (many?), the Airbus FBW does not decide to do things on its on. Like many other highly automated airplanes, crews can become confused about what mode the automation is in but crews still have the ability to go to essentially stick and rudder flying by turning the auto-stuff off.

In fact, on a line check a while back it was a blue-sky day and calm winds. I turned all the auto-stuff off and watched the line check airman go white.. "We have no procedure for THAT!"

I replied, "But we also have no procedure that prohibits it..." And we merrily continued aviating..

[wileydog3]

Hi,
I was disscusing with some coleagues,what to do if you are shooting an ILS in solid IMC and way before minima,your captain tells you that he we'll try to go 50' below minima to land.

Any opinions?
Thanks

Wrestling for control of an airplane at low altitude is not a good method to ensure longevity.

When a Captain or anyone states they are going to *violate* policy/procedure, advise them you will not be a part of it and if it occurs, YOU will will follow policy/procedure and take the matter to 1st professional standards and failing to resolve the issue, to company safety officials. Hopefully your company has such avenues for recourse.

[alexban]

Wrestling for controls--it's a big NO.Especially at low altitudes such as catII app.
Our SOP: capt always does the cat II or III app.He stays on the instrument,and at 200' above minimums the FO looks out.He calls what he sees.If no call from the FO untill the automated call 'minimums',the cpt initiates the GA.
Now,what if he continues the app? I think ,in a real situation,as a FO you will clearly call 'No contact" -this will take you maybe 2-3 sec,after you've realised that the cpt is not going around at minimum call.Then,you should check the instruments,is everything ok? another 2 sec.....
At this time the plane will reach a height of maybe 50' or less.
I strongly suggest NOT to fight for controls at this time.
What will happen? We always do low visibility landings on automatics.So,if everything it's ok with the ILS and the plane systems ,the plane will do a normal autoland.
I doubt that any capt will do a blind landing,I think he'll try to descend maybe no more than 50' bellow minimum,maybe he sees something...
I say again,I'm talking about modern planes,GPS equiped,and a perfect ,normal ,autopilot ON, approach,on glide,loc,distances and altitudes verified,etc..
I'm against any minimum breach,but I think the fight for controls can be worse.I've been there,on old time prop,when the capt decided to GA ,the stupid tower decided to ask him right then if he wants to do another approach ,and the cpt grabbed the mike with one hand to answer....Scary movie,with the mechanic between us yelling 'go around' ,the disoriented cpt trying to descent ,and me fighting with the stick to make it climb.We did a scary dance at no more than 30'.It makes my hair rise even now ,after many years...
I think the overwhelming majority of pilots,have ,at least one time,descended a bit bellow minimums...But it's a good CRM question,so this is why it is raised.
You should always be aware of the risk for the capt to become incapacitated.You should challenge him verbally and if he fails to respond it's time to assume control of the plane.
And of course,after landing,time for tea and biscuits with the chief pilot...

comittedtostay: nice scenario,but in real life it would be somewhat difficult to follow.The GA button it's dificult to touch if the other pilot it's keeping his hand on the thrust lever.You'll say 'I have control' and then remove his hand from the thrust levers.How? Kicking him over fingers? Then he'll start saying 'what the..:mad: ...you're doing?..and push the stick while you pull .Not a place where i'd like to be,and as you said,a very time constrained scenario.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

As I remember things, the original question was along the lines of what would you do were your Captain to tell you he was going to go below minima.
I don't think that the question pre-supposed that we had got to the wrestling stage yet.
I think that faced with a brief that implies that we might just go a teensy way below minima, the diplomatic extrication is to say something along the lines of:
' Captain Courageous, I'm not terribly happy about that. Do you think, please, that we could just stick to the published minima on this one?'
Now you can heave a sigh of relief. The Captain knows how you feel and the CVR has your qualms imprinted on supposedly imperishable tape.
If further concerned on the point then perhaps a gentle, albeit non standard, reminder as to minima when you leave 1,000ft might be appropriate.
Given that no incapacitation has occured, I wonder which is the more dangerous, to allow the aircraft to descend a tad below minima or to start crashing around the cockpit taking control, by which time a minima bust will probably have taken place anyway.;)
Oh yes, I am slightly amused at the 'I'm a jet pilot' attitude which presumes such aids to easy aviation as TOGA. I think that the potential for minima busts is far greater in the non auto-pilot equipped turbo prop environment where the pressures on timetable adhesion and skills required are usually far greater than in today's jet fleets, which today are crewed more and more at the grass roots by model modulars who have absolutely no linear aeronautical development and no experience of serious aviation or the great fun that can be derived therefrom.:ooh:

[Digby Swift]

I think like so many of these things you have to decide what to do in that specific situation. Where verbally agreeing to reset your minimas lower than published is absolutely ridiculous sometimes you might have to approach the whole situation with a slightly lateral mindset. As for robustly taking control for the GA, i feel cockpit kung-fu with your colleague at 100 ft will only result in complete and utter disaster.

[Clandestino]

Saying something along the lines: "Captain, you've just briefed intention of minimum bust and I feel uncomfortable with it" is only good for sake of CVR recording. Any pilot briefing going below (M)DA is showing such a disregard for his own safety that it's very unlikely that he'll change his mind after being warned.

As I see it there are two viable options:

1) If you have repaid training and type rating loans or have substantial savings, challenge captain hard immediately after he briefs intended minima bust. If he maintains that it will be OK to go below minima, assume incapacitation and take over control at safe height. Prepare to change employer.

2) If you're poor F/O with most of paycheque spent on servicing the debt made during trainning, two phrases are in order: "Capt, I'm not comfortable with that" and "Captain, you're going below our minimum!" but just sit on your hands and do nothing. With minima bust, your chances of getting killed are only up from one to couple-hundred-millions to one to couple-hundreds. It's very likely (cca 300:1) that you'll get away with it and make it to the appropriate landing surface. In the unlikely event of your captain's and your discovery that there are few reasons behind minima, CVR will tell its story, your VP FltOps will express his surprise at conduct of the crew, CRM trainers will have new case study for their lessons and your last flight will get nice 20+ pages thread on the PPRuNe. To paraphrase Richard Bach: it will be all your captain's fault, you'll just be the guy who dies.

[wileydog3]

Let's take this from the theoretical to the real.

How many on this thread have had a Captain say they were going to bust mins and do it?

And while we are talking going 50ft below mins, what type approach are we talking about or are we just doing more theory. Non-precision? Cat 1? Cat II? We know Cat III is ruled out with the 50DH/AH...

Are we talking about a GPS approach flown with an MDA? A dive and drive or a Constant angle-non-precision approach?

Then too, another step from theory to reality, most Captains who decide to violate standards are known by the F/Os and even by the company. One seldom gains a reputation with one event. IF this is standard, as some have mentioned, it may be time to find work elsewhere if one expects to grow old.

In the US there was a regional a while back where they published all the usual posters, spouted the usual stuff about safety but the culture was they were going to find the runway regardless. It was part of their culture and 'can do' attitude. Everyone knew that flying with this company meant that mins were for weenies. Real men landed. They kept it up until they put one in the trees.

So, back to the original question? How many have had Captains who were known for busting mins?

[wileydog3]

50ft on an 800ft MDH is not going to get you killed. It is the attitude that is going to turn you into a red smear somewhere.

And as you have noted, since everyone knows Capt Atilla T. Hun is going to bust mins, you are just a statistic waiting to happen.

1) fly only with Capt Hun when it is VFR
2) use the wx days to hunt for a job elsewhere

[A320rider]

DH or MDH is a decision altitude or a "it is time to act now".
depending how fast is your captain to react(proportional to # of beer from last dinner), you may find yourself well under the DH before to go miss.

MDA is for unprecise approaches, which are higher(700-800ft), even going to the minimum, bring your landing gear under the minimum!

if you dont feel confident(even for 20feet), dont bust!

[wileydog3]

[QUOTE
Indeed, THAT doesn´t sound like taken from theory to the real with respect to crewplanning requirements...:hmm:[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely correct. It was an attempt at humor.

The bottom line is never let the other guy's comfort zone get you killed.

[RatherBeFlying]

I am reminded of one accident at YSL where skill exceeded judgement -- they hit the NDB antenna:}

As has been pointed out, you can usually get away with busting limits, especially as there are builtin margins.

But do it enough times and you will hit something some day when one of those error sources compensated by said margins gets in your way:ouch:

[ironbutt57]

Remind the errant Capt, the crash axe is on your side of the flt deck for a reason:}