What if your captain goes down 50' below minimums?
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What if your captain goes down 50' below minimums?
Hi,
I was disscusing with some coleagues,what to do if you are shooting an ILS in solid IMC and way before minima,your captain tells you that he we'll try to go 50' below minima to land.
A few folks mentioned that they won't approve that verbally,but let the captain to go below minima.
Others mentioned to get the controls as soon as the captain began to bust the minima.
Any opinions?
Thanks
I was disscusing with some coleagues,what to do if you are shooting an ILS in solid IMC and way before minima,your captain tells you that he we'll try to go 50' below minima to land.
A few folks mentioned that they won't approve that verbally,but let the captain to go below minima.
Others mentioned to get the controls as soon as the captain began to bust the minima.
Any opinions?
Thanks
Está servira para distraerle.
I think somehow, that if you try to take control of an aeroplane at minima or at a height below say 200ft agl; you are asking for a load of very dangerous trouble. But there are other ways to salve the almost insatiable desire of some Fos to intrude into areas that are especially grey and which should be left that way.
The scenario goes like this. Captain flying:
FO: Minima, nothing seen.
CPT: What was that.
FO. Minima, nothing seen.
CPT. Going around.......
That's your fifty foot and dignity all around.
I remember the peace and tranquillity which prevailed at London City. Fos were neither allowed to land nor to take off, such a load off their minds.
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A suggestion -
At the minima, and still IMC - loudly call "Minima, NO Contact" (or whatever your standard phraseology is).
If the other pilot (Captain or F/O) continues below the minima, assume Pilot Incapacitation, take control, announce it clearly, and execute a missed approach.
He/She can rant and rave at a later time, but the FDR will back you up.
Regards,
Old Smokey
At the minima, and still IMC - loudly call "Minima, NO Contact" (or whatever your standard phraseology is).
If the other pilot (Captain or F/O) continues below the minima, assume Pilot Incapacitation, take control, announce it clearly, and execute a missed approach.
He/She can rant and rave at a later time, but the FDR will back you up.
Regards,
Old Smokey
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at the end of the day, we shouldnt be discussing this to such a full extent; the proof that we are discussing it goes to show that there is a probability of DA infringment where people need to understand that its an actual life saving height/altitude and not a number chosen out of the blue.stick to the numbers, dont infringe.simple.not for any of us to think otherwise.make it automatic people.
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If your Captain announces his/her intention to break the law as well as company SOP's, then before it gets to the control wrestling stage, why not announce quite clearly to him/her that you will be VERY unhappy if a go-around is not flown according to the airlines' requirements, at minimums. It may avoid a load of trouble, though you may end up buying your own beer in the evening!
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I thought people like cavorting cheetah didn't actually exist anymore. i would suggest that professional flight crew wouldn't brief either formally or informally an intention to go below minima without the required visual reference. And secondly there is no place for the single pilot mentality that Cavorting Cheetah clearly advocates. And as an F/o i'm pleased that i have always flown with captains who don't act in this way.
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XRJ you summed it all up. Professional pilots do not brief neither plan to go below DH without the proper visual refrences in sight. Going below minima is stealing honey when bee is not around, you might get away with it once, twice, thrice but without knowing you are developing a baaad habit which will sting you one day when you least expected.In our company any crew member calls "GO AROUND" at minima, IT IS A GO AROUND. As a training Cpt said, Execute the Go Around and after reaching a safe altitude then discuss reasons.
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We do it like this,at cat II or III:
200' above minima ,fo looks out.Cpt is on the instruments.The FO whatch and tells what he sees outside the a/c.The aircraft 'tells' MINIMA .
if untill minima auto-call nothing heard from the f/o or only non-landing items detected then the cpt announces GO-AROUND and pushes TOGA.
At low vis autoland is mandatory.
So the FO won't say anything like NO CONTACT ,he says nothing if he sees nothing outside.If nothing heard from him,at minima call from the automatic voice ,the cpt initiates the go-around.
200' above minima ,fo looks out.Cpt is on the instruments.The FO whatch and tells what he sees outside the a/c.The aircraft 'tells' MINIMA .
if untill minima auto-call nothing heard from the f/o or only non-landing items detected then the cpt announces GO-AROUND and pushes TOGA.
At low vis autoland is mandatory.
So the FO won't say anything like NO CONTACT ,he says nothing if he sees nothing outside.If nothing heard from him,at minima call from the automatic voice ,the cpt initiates the go-around.
Está servira para distraerle.
Some one expressed sorrow at the discussion on this thread.
I think he's right. Perhaps it really shouldn't be happening. I also think that there's a little caveat here.
I am not so sure that I take the original post too seriously and having said that, would be reluctant to enter into detailed discussion as to what does, might or even has happened in a real situation. But then again, I've recently had a brush with PC. PC, with concurrent journalistic peril, as if that's not a great surprise, and so am a teeny bit twitchy.
Incidentally, I have been a fan of the monitored approach for many years. That's the one where the Fo, who can often fly more accurately than his aged Captain flies the approach and the Captain then lands the beast.
Company doesn't pay me to break minima. However, if I'm down to a min fuel/uncontained fire etc... I'll fly an ILS to Zero/Zero ought to land. That's in an emergency only otherwise G/A and either shoot another, one fuel permitting or go to our alternate. My company does PMA's and we find that it's best that the F/O stays on the instruments down to 100' while the Captain monitors the visuals "runway/lights in sight" from Minimum's so as to have not only required references but also extra cues for landing. The F/O stays on instruments right thru the rollout.
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I agree with everyone who said that a professional pilot does not brief to break the law in going below minima, and would never consider doing so.
I personally would have a discussion later with anyone who did so, and would not hesitate to report them for a second offence.
Like V1, I consider DA not as a "Decision" point but as a "Decision already made" point. In other words, unless you can already see the lights when that call comes, you are going around. Similarly, if V1 has been called, you are taking off.
I have spent much of my life successfully avoiding becoming a statistic. I don't intend to buck the trend either by doing something dumb, difficult or dangerous myself, or permitting anyone in the same aircraft as me acting similarly.
I personally would have a discussion later with anyone who did so, and would not hesitate to report them for a second offence.
Like V1, I consider DA not as a "Decision" point but as a "Decision already made" point. In other words, unless you can already see the lights when that call comes, you are going around. Similarly, if V1 has been called, you are taking off.
I have spent much of my life successfully avoiding becoming a statistic. I don't intend to buck the trend either by doing something dumb, difficult or dangerous myself, or permitting anyone in the same aircraft as me acting similarly.