Westjet pay.

[I hate cats]

There are some good pay comparison information at this link if you feel the need to apply at Westjet.

The pay isnt great, unless youre still living at home with Mom and Dad or maybe a basement suite in Beddington will work. A small suite and a old car. Like a 1973 ford pinto. OK I veered off subject but you get the picture. I'd like to know how you afford to pay for wonderful Westjet shares when you are making jack in the first place.

http://acpilot.********.com/2005/11/pay-survey-of-north-american-airlines_29.html

[Slapshot]

The starting pay at most places is quite low and with due respect the starting salary at WestJet is reportedly higher than the starting salary at Air Canada.

I think the issue of a low starting salary is more of an industry wide phenomenon than a particular Airline...

As for the Share Participation, the 20% I did from day one has now grown to a nice little nest egg inside my RRSP. By putting it in my RRSP I also gain the tax deduction. That is one way to "I'd like to know how you afford to pay for wonderful Westjet shares when you are making jack in the first place."

[skycaptain007]

Based on some info from friends at Air Canada and Jazz. It seems that Westjets pay is significantly better then both for at least 2 years. Canadian North is perhaps the highest. What major Canadian Airline that is currently hiring would you recommend???

The Pilots unions across Canada have been selling out the newbies for quite some time. This is an unfourtunate problem in Canada that only a Guild or Bar association can help, such as an actors guild or a bar association that lawyers belong to. I would love an alternative if you may suggest any that would be great.

[brucelee]

Starting salaries in Canada are all within $3-4k per year of each other at all the "major" companies. There is no such thing as significantly higher. Westjetters keep including their RSP's in their salary. That's fine but I don't see how this differs from AC. Almost every employee at AC has RSP's and company stock AND a pension. And even after devoting all that money to investments our net salary is still higher. Simply put, bigger planes means bigger bucks. Period. It's the long term you have to look at as well. As WJ grows, there will be less profit. Less wealth to spread around. This is already happening but will get worse. Productivity will have to go up. This country cannot sustain more than one major airline. Have we not seen this before? The euphoria that has been sustainable as a small company will vanish in the coming years. I suspect that by that time Clive will be long gone with his mllions in the bank and Wjetters will be left with trying to negotiate a reasonable contract. Good luck. You heard it here first.:ok:

[oldebloke]

Wasn't there something in 'Maccleans'magazine the other month'where the F/O took home $C800 twice a month???
cheers..:ok:

[brucelee]

My understanding is that after all the investment perks, ie stocks and rrsp's, all that's left amounts to less than $1000 a paycheck for the fo. They claim they are rich. Well if I liquidate all my investments thanks to AC, I would be rich too. But I sure as hell make more than $800 a paycheck as an fo. I guess that's the reason Clive sells them the "happy" juice. Great place to work don't you know.

[Slapshot]

We've all bemoaned the first year salary in the aviation business. That's an industry-wide phenomenon as I pointed out in the first post...

If you'll get past the first year, a second year F/O at WestJet has a paycheque of $1923 and some odd cents every two weeks. $3864 a month before taxes. How you arrange your finances regarding taxes is up to the individual, I won't guess at take-home. We are all different, but that is the starting point.

Yes there are investment "perks" as you call them... In addition to the salary, there is the Employee Share Ownership Programme, which is completely voluntary. If you choose to participate, for every share you buy, the company will match. One makes 100% on the investment on day one.

There is profit sharing paid twice a year. May & November. We've paid out millions of dollars in profitshare in the past 6 years. 5 million dollars was paid to the employees last month. For perspective, that was an extra paycheque for myself...

There is the Share Option Plan which all Pilots are a part. The Options have created quite a bit of wealth and paid off more than a few mortgages. Yes, mine as well.

[c150driver]

This country cannot sustain more than one major airline. Have we not seen this before?
I agree....we have seen this before...last year when AC went bankrupt!...And it will happen again....

You saw it HERE first!

[Dockjock]

We've all bemoaned the first year salary in the aviation business
Ya, 'cept the thing is 'first year' in reality is more like 10th or 12th year.

[brucelee]

C150.
Why don't you enlighten us with your theory?
I wouldn't waste my money on the lottery if I were you.

[c150driver]

Bruce, you are kidding yourself if you think that AC has made enough changes to remain out of bankruptcy....it is just a matter of time.

[brucelee]

C150.
Gee. Now you're scaring me. Is WJ hiring? I have lots of experience. And by the way, you didn't quite enlighten me.
:ok:

[Tilt]

That's it Bruce.. just keep your head in the sand a little longer. I'm sure Big Red will come up with that 2B they owe the pension just in time for you. Let us know when your loan sharks are leaving the board room table so that we can all short AC...again.

[Mr Moustache]

I wanted to return to Canada last year from the UK where I've been for a while now. I took one look at Westjet salary and I was cured (almost!). No, I still want to come back but while Westjet Captains are earning junior first officer salaries, I guess it will have to be vacations only.
Before you ask - Flyglobespan, line capt in second year with the company, pounds equiv of $141,000 CDN

[brucelee]

That's it Bruce.. just keep your head in the sand a little longer. I'm sure Big Red will come up with that 2B they owe the pension just in time for you. Let us know when your loan sharks are leaving the board room table so that we can all short AC...again.

C150 and Tilt.
Just my two cents' worth. Anything can happen in this world. Yes, even after surviving CCAA, a national merger and Clive Bedoe's espionage, not to mention the Liberal's view of AC's monopoly in the industry and the "high" cost of labour, this company just might be history someday. You guys could be right. I'll be sure to congradulate you on your wisdom and intelligence when that day comes. Untill then, try to keep it real. Your comments don't make too much "cents", eh. It could have worked out for you guys. Oh well, be happy with what you have.:ok:

[c150driver]

... CCAA, a national merger and Clive Bedoe's espionage, not to mention the Liberal's view of AC's monopoly in the industry and the "high" cost of labour, this company just might be history someday...
Typical of an AC employee....it's always someone else's fault...what about sh!tty management and your unreasonable unions?...maybe they should share the blame too?
I know it may be quite unimaginable to you from your lofty perch Bruce, but others in this industry might actually enjoy their jobs even though most of us failed to make it into your legacy airline...:{

[20driver]

Given the incredible level of vitriol on this forum I'd normally stay out but Brucelee asked the question. Tell me why AC is headed back to the CCA yard.

Reason #1 – It is all about the customers. When you are no longer the monopoly that you always have being you need to change your ways or you die.

A few weeks back I flew JFK/SLC - rt. purchased the ticket 2 weeks before and paid $330 al in. If I had done it a few weeks earlier it would have being $220. The day before I looked to add my son, price would have being 460. Flight was totally full. Depending on when you bought that is a seat mile cost of 5-13 cents. Average say 9.

We landed 20 minutes early and waited on the ramp for our gate. We walked off the plane at the planned arrival time. Three days later I get an email apologizing for the delay???? And telling me they had deposited a $25 credit in my FF account. Good for one year on any Jet blue flight.

Compare this to the “New Air Canada” as described in this forum

http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=202246

My father had a very similar experience a few years back and it is just plain old arrogance to the customer. “We’ve got you, or rather we’ve got your money, and we are going to bend you over the table because you have no choice”

So given a choice – who are you going to fly? Jet Blue can fill its planes and make money at reasonable fairs and provide a real top-notch product and service that makes loyal customers. AC just gave at least one customer a really good reason to look elsewhere. (Read the thread carefully – the AC counter staff basically called the man a liar on two counts. Wow where do you get these people)

The problem of legacy airlines is not legacy costs. It is the legacy thinking deeply embedded in the DNA of the management and the employees. Very few legacy airlines have being able to survive real competition. They simple cannot see the customer as anything but captive and they will always behave that way unless something forces them to change. This ‘you have no choice’ attitude works it way down to all levels of employees.

AC has the same management that put you in the soup. What has changed? How much is Uncle Miltie making off with out of his “visionary “ restructuring? Read the threads on this forum. AC has not solved its labor problems; it has stashed them in the closet. It used CCA to cover up bad decisions and beat the crap out of the work force. The tables will turn and the employees are just waiting to get their kick at the cat. Revenge is best eaten cold so it may be a few years but it will come and it will be vicious.


All AC needs to return to the good ole days is get that pesky competition out of the way. The attacks on Westjet are no different from all the ALPA boys calling SWA pilot’s low paid scabs for years.

In the past the legacy carriers have used a combination of regulatory agencies, captive markets, predatory pricing, airport slots and technical skills to maintain the monopolies. All of these elements are disappearing.

Funny thing is the chairman of JetBlue is an ex travel agent and is paid a minimal 500k per year and he has a lot of real money tied up in shares. Not a single option, real shares, real money and no golden parachute. He has already started and sold one airline and this one is only making money every quarter. They have 100 planes plus on order and eventually they will wander North.


I see nothing that tells me AC has changed. And don’t count on the overseas traffic to save your bacon. Every flight out means one of those low cost off shore Boeing operators coming the other way. The have identical costs to you for planes, fuel, nav and landing fees. The only edge they have is the labour costs and customer service.

The world has changed and flying and plane and operating a successful airline are no longer the domain of the elite few. Check out Jet Airways. When they start flying to North America that is where my business goes.


Reason # 2 = Anyone so stupid as to invest in America West or USAIR really has it coming. Got 4000 million, invest it in your own operation.


AC has the technical skills to run a 1st class operation. It is the management I really doubt and I’ve yet to see anything to convince me it has changed.

[brucelee]

C150.
Judging by the your typical comments, it sounds like things have worked out real well for you. Keep up the good work sparky. :ok:

[in limbo]

The fact is we live in a great country and we are taxed to death.
Unless you are in the top half of AC or among those that were hired in the first couple years at WestJet or happen to have a nice corporate job you are making a salary well below what you should and I am just guessing here but I would bet that about 90+% of us don't fall into the fortunate category.:{

[c150driver]

20Driver....well said!

Bruce...do they serve Koolaid at AC too??? Sounds like you've had your fair share of it:ok:

[brucelee]

C150.
You're an amature. But don't give up.

[c150driver]

Ya Bruce you is right,
but one day I is gonna be a professional like you :}

[Rosbif]

And Air Transat is hiring and will have 20 airplanes within 4 years. And AC will never go bancrupt. And you can make a real salary at Westjet. And there is going to be a pilot shortage this year. And Michel Leblanc is starting another airline.

Sorry. I must have been asleep for 4 years. Has anything new happened?

[in limbo]

Well that made me laugh.:D
Good one:ok:

[B737FO]

So whens the union coming to Westjet? Since it is a major and all. This thread has kinda gone off to somewhere else land. What I want to know is the 750.00$ /paycheck true or not? Is that first year or constant? Last time I checked AC left seat on widebody was over $200k salary. What is a left seat guy making at westjet?

Curious.

[in limbo]

If you max out you contribution and don't take into account the perdium and any over time I would say that is close to being accurate from what my friends who work there told me.

[Slapshot]

"So whens the union coming to Westjet?"
I would say not anytime soon. We have a good rapour with Management, we have ongoing negotiations for our next Pilot contract which should culminate in an agreement in the next month.
We have just come off one of the worst years in our history with JetsGo bringing down yeilds and profits. However, there have been no layoff's, no down-grades, no one has been asked to take a pay cut. In that respect the system works. Everybody has kept their job and salary.
"What I want to know is the 750.00$ /paycheck true or not? Is that first year or constant?"
Check my post on the first page of this thread regarding salary... "If you'll get past the first year, a second year F/O at WestJet has a paycheque of $1923 and some odd cents every two weeks. $3864 a month before taxes. How you arrange your finances regarding taxes is up to the individual, I won't guess at take-home. We are all different, but that is the starting point."
"Last time I checked AC left seat on widebody was over $200k salary. What is a left seat guy making at westjet?
Curious."
I can't comment on the salary at Air Canada because I do not work there. I think you need to compare apples to apples however... What does a guy in the left seat of the Airbus narrow body make? Is that "over $200k salary on a widebody" for a senior position? An end of career top of scale?
WestJet has been around for 10 years. What does a 10 year Airbus narrowbody Captain at Air Canada make? A 10 year Captain at WestJet T-4's very well.

[in limbo]

With all due respect Slapshot giving a salary quote before taxes is very misleading. Don't get me wrong your info is appreciated but in my experience people really want to know what the direct deposit slip will say.;)

[Slapshot]

I can understand and appreciate that, however, there are many variables...

I've a Wife and two kids. The wife doesn't work and the kids are great little deductions on their own. That will make the taxes deducted different than the single guy with no dependants. There again, where do you live? The same two people living in Quebec will have different tax implications than the two living in Alberta... We have new hires who commute from as far away as Deer Lake Nfld., and have had guys who commute from Hawaii...

In order to compare Apples to Apples I just posted the salary.

Cheers.

[in limbo]

I do understand what you mean 100%.
I guess when you look at the before taxes amount it looks like a not so bad salary.
My last job I was based in YYZ and lived in YHZ and come tax time I got hit even more.:uhoh: :eek:
cheers:ok:

[B737FO]

I can understand and appreciate that, however, there are many variables...
I've a Wife and two kids. The wife doesn't work and the kids are great little deductions on their own. That will make the taxes deducted different than the single guy with no dependants. There again, where do you live? The same two people living in Quebec will have different tax implications than the two living in Alberta... We have new hires who commute from as far away as Deer Lake Nfld., and have had guys who commute from Hawaii...
In order to compare Apples to Apples I just posted the salary.
Cheers.

Yes I understand what you mean with the pay before tax. No one plans on the career at FO pay anyways I guess. I didnt even know you had an association at westjet or so negiotiating unit on behalf of the pilots. I will agree jetsgo hurt everyone with the rediculous 1$ fares. I am curious though. Do they still mention wait time till captain upgrade at the initial ground schools? If so what is it now time wise to goto left seat?

One last question about basing. Do you ever plan to discuss with management about the possibility to have different bases other than YYC? I mean if you are going internationally and planning to operate oversees one would think it would be advantagous to have an eastern base somewhere. But I could be wrong. Appreciate you input btw.

B737FO

[brucelee]

A ten year A320 capt at AC makes approx. $160,000(gross) + approx $10,000 (non taxable) in per diems. Bear in mind this salary has been reduced 20% due to CCAA and will be up for renegotiation in the near future. Although I personally don't think we will get back what we lost, it is widely expected that a good portion will be returned. Every pilot takes care of their own investments, ie RRSP etc. plus the pension is over $100k/yr at retirement. I agree, we can't compare the A340 skipper salary because WJ don't have such equipment. But it is part of the overall comparison when we are talking lifestyle, finance, job satisfaction, professional progression, personal satisfaction etc etc. Sorry boys but my daddy IS bigger than yours. It's not arrogance or kool-aid. It's reality.:ok:

[CanAV8R]

Keep in mind Bruce that although WJ pay is lower this is going to change. It will go up in the near future to come be comparable to AC 320 pilots. Market forces. The pension at AC is good but does it have a huge hole? Most think it will be gone for newbies soon enough. Also remember that by global stanards AC pays on the low side for major carriers. This is reality. You guys make a good living but there are better. I am not talking about the middle east either.
If I was working at AC I would be not looking down to WJ but up at carriers that are in the same market. Then maybe you will get paid what you should be.
My two cents....

[anybodyatall]

What's the churn rate like at WJ? (i.e. pilots leaving to greener pastures)

[brucelee]

CanAv8R.
Good to hear your pay is going up. I'm just wondering who I should compare AC to? I know there's better money to be made overseas and maybe even some majors in N. America. But moving out of my country kinda illiminates the advantage of the bigger salary. So why compare it? You see it all comes back to reality. If you whant to stay in Canada, fly big planes and enjoy a good carreer at the top pay, there ain't many choices. In fact there's only one. As far as our pension is concerned, the company is back on track filling in the hole and so far our group is not worried. I would say as long as people continue to fly and fuel prices can be controlled, there isn't a problem for either WJ or AC:ok:

[Slapshot]

The current 10 year salary at WestJet is $115,000. If you participate in the employee share ownership plan, you can add another 20% to that. There is also the option grant. There is the Profit Sharing which has done very well in 8 of the last 9 years. Plus about $7,200 in non-taxable per diem.
The guy that has been here 10 years, has probably participated in the ESOP, and has the options granted over the last 10 years to do with as he pleases. Some have diversified and spread the risk, some have let it ride. All to one's own risk tolerance.
It is an innovative way of compensating the Pilot group. When times are tough, the company is protected by the salary structure. We have had no layoff's, wage roll-back's or down-grades due to "economic forces". When times are good, the profit share, the lift in share price make us some considerable coin.
It's not for everybody, but for those who can think outside the box, it can be very lucrative.
Cheers. :ok:
As for "churn rate" we have had some guys leave for greener pastures as you say. Of late I have not heard of too many. We have a ground-school going later this month and I believe one a month for the remainder of the year.

[brucelee]

The churn rate is a non factor. Apparantly approx 75 WJ resumes on file at AC but only one or two have been hired. I don't get the whole ownership thing but it appears that it all has to do with stock price and profits, both which seem to have come to a sort of resting place of late. Market forces are a big risk. Clive has counted on them knowing full well it would all work out as long as the plan comes together. If the recent turn of events are any indication of what the future holds, all the innovation won't do it anymore. Competition, high fuel prices and the need to expand will all drag those goodies down. The salary structure will hopefully make up for it. At AC as long as there is seniority and bigger airplanes to fly, the money comes part and parcel. Sorry, didn't mean to compare apples to oranges.:ok:

[jumpy737]

There were two pilots that leaft for Air Canada in the summer :rolleyes: but the five hired from Air Canada (laid off) have turned down the offer to go back. So far the turn-over has been extremely low and everyone is waiting to see what happens with the new contract. You may see a few leaving after that but I think that the turn-over will continue to be negligible.

[Macinnis]

There were two pilots that leaft for Air Canada in the summer :rolleyes: but the five hired from Air Canada (laid off) have turned down the offer to go back. So far the turn-over has been extremely low and everyone is waiting to see what happens with the new contract. You may see a few leaving after that but I think that the turn-over will continue to be negligible.
Once ACPA has finished with eating their own over seniority between the CP and original AC pilots, things will get much better morale wise. It must still suck now