Verdict on XLA B767 & bmib B737 incident at MAN

[Flybeeeee]

You may remember a few months back a collision involving a Excel airways B767 and a bmibaby B737 at Manchester -

Well the verdict is that it was the XLA captain to blame -

What do you think?? surly there both as bad as each other, they both have eyes to look out for each other -

I don't know the whole story but can someone shed some light on it please

Thanks

[Localiser Green]

Link to AAIB Report (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/december_2005/boeing_767_204__g_satr_and_boeing_737_37q__g_odsk.cfm)

The B737 commander was entitled to stop his aircraft where he did and bore no responsibility for the clearance, or lack of it, between his aircraft and any passing behind.

[cargo boy]

Flybeee, perhaps you should gather up as much of the "whole story" before you make silly assumptions based on a dire lack of knowledge and obviously, experience.

To comment... "surly there both as bad as each other, they both have eyes to look out for each other" just before posting... "I don't know the whole story but can someone shed some light on it please" is a sure sign of ignorance. Better to let everyone think you are a fool rather than confirm it by engaging finger to keyboard and proving it beyond any doubt.

The link to the official report is provided above and the thread on here is easily found using the search function. To save you the effort, just click on this link: Excel B767 and bmibaby B737 collision at Manchester (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150921). :rolleyes:

[ContIgnt]

In this case, the baby skipper has been completely exhonerated.
He was at the holding point with the park brake SET.

Please DO NOT make those types of comments without knowing the facts. You are talking about people's reputations and careers here.

[A and C]

Already the perfect pilots on the forum are blaming some one for this inccident, undoubtedly the B737 crew are not to blame fot this as they were stopped with the park brake set.

A number of misconseptions and time pressure led the Captain of the Air Atlanta B767 to misjudge the clearance or lack of it and remember he can't see the wing tip.

The whole thing was a bit of a storm in a tea cup but one thing that I can't understand is why modern aircraft are not fitted with lights in the wing tip that point at the ground the Lockheed Electra had them and it was a great aid to judging the path of the wing tip over the ground.

[Squealing Pig]

How about wingtip mounted cameras? Plenty used on some other aircraft for IFE so are probably relatively cheap.

Must be cheaper than this incident !

[A and C]

You are right cameras would be cheaper than an inccident but not as cheap as spot lights pointing downwards.

The low tech simple solution is vastly cheaper in terms of maintenance and if it fails the chances of getting it fixed on a turnround are quite high.

[gashcan]

Flybeeeee - sorry you got bashed about a bit. It does happen quite a lot here.

I'm afraid that you touched a nerve and got the pointy end of a couple of sharp sticks; don't take it to heart!

As for the incident, I'm sure the XLA captain will regret it for ages, as will the many other pilots who have nudged something while taxiing, thinking that they were clear...MYT 330 in YVR springs to mind as another recent example.

There for the grace of God go an awful lot of us...we just have to be even more careful.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Flybeeeee: "Don't forget we all share the same hobby here and I think its disgusting you react like you have - "

Hobby? HOBBY? Sure, many of us have hobbies involving aviation but what you did has nothing to do with a hobby. You called into question the actions of PROFESSIONAL people doing a demanding job. You plainly have little knowledge of aviation and I strongly suggest that you desist from further comments to prevent causing further offence.

[keel beam]

Change a lamp on a turn round? Dream on A&C! Perhaps in the Constellation days but nowadays no chance. That is for a layover check.

[Backtrack]

I'm probably being very thick, but I can't see what use spot lights pointing downwards wolud be on a 767.
If you can't see the wingtip from the flight deck, how do you expect to see the point on the ground where the 'spot of light' falls? :confused:

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

Lights pointing downwards and forwards would shine far enough forward that you could look out and see where the wingtip will be in a few seconds if you keep going in a straight line.
I like the idea!

[cwatters]

A scanned laser might even paint a line showing where the impact will be if you continue.

[A and C]

Do you work for BA ?. A lamp change on a turnround is no problem for the airline that I work for.

Gashcan

Please get the airline correct the aircraft was on lease to XLA from Air Atlanta and it was made clear that the aircraft was leased in the AAIB report.

[gashcan]

A and C...beg pardon, missed that.
GC

[Banzai Eagle]

Apart from the incident, what a shambles. The Airline Operations
Department did not know where he should divert to for fuel.
:\

[keel beam]

A & C - Yes I do work for BA. Perhaps I should expand on my comment. At a main base, then yes, a lamp change can be done during a turn round, but down the line, where manpower is at an absolute minimum combined with short turn round times, then my comment stands. The only time a lamp change would need to be done down the line is when it is out of MEL limits ( usually allied with night flights).

[sky9]

I would have thought that the poor design of the runway & taxiway layout would have had a part to play in the accident.

[roundwego]

Can you imagine if this had happened on the railways. A train parked just off a set off points and a passing train clips the back of the parked train.

There would be no way the driver would have been blamed. The blame would, as sky9 above says, be placed fairly and squarely on the poor design of the line layout and train control system.

[Gary Lager]

If a 'passing train' clipped a stationary one at 90mph, it probably wouldn't entirely be the drivers fault (except 'SPADs') because train drivers can't:
a) steer
b) stop quickly.

But consider if the train driver was doing 5-10 mph in a very busy marshalling yard - I would suggest he would most definitely be at fault for proceeding where doubt existed.

The comparison is a load of b@lls anyway, for reasons a) and b) above.

Besides, I understand the report to describe quite extensively the contributory human and procedural factors concerned, as most AAIB reports do.

[bigbusdriver06]

It's not many years (mid 1990s) since pilots were out there changing the gear downlock inspection lights on Airtours' MD83s. Pre-9/11 most of us carried a Leatherman or similar, so it wasn't difficult. The lights were a no-go item, so if one failed in the middle of a night Heraklion you had to fix it. In my current airline, getting any bulb changed on a 30 minute turnround at base is no problem at all.

The rules are of course a little stricter now. In those days we wouldn't think twice about opening up a RB211 downroute, adding oil and and buttoning it up again. If the cowling had closed when it shouldn't have done, the pilot would have been chopped in half. And if it had opened when it shouldn't..........

[Max Angle]

AAIB could come to no other conclusion. There are some things that the commander of an aircraft, whether it be a Cub or 747, has to take the blame for. Striking a stationary aircraft with your own is one of them I'm afraid.

[Sir George Cayley]

Nowhere is it written how far from a stopbar or preceeding a/c should the commander of an a/c stop.

Remember in this incident the baby crew elected to hold behind a quadrapuff but so far back they infringed the taxiway strip of both Twy Victor and the crossing link.

And had the perfect right so to do. At other times one can see 3 or 4 a/c occupy the same space that then only 2 did.

A year apart wing tips clashed at LHR at the 27L hold, both incidents involved a/c commanders deciding where to stop and infringing adjacent taxiway strips.

Anybody agree with me that to stop this happening again we could agree a common standard or recommended practice of an acceptable stopping distance from a RTHP or preceeding a/c?

Discuss.

CAA take note

BALPA copy

ICAO in your own time.

Sir George Cayley

[spottyemm]

I would like to know much more about why the Capt of the 76 feinted. Was he that unwell prior to push? If so this is seriously unprofessional. If not was it the shock of the incident and what lessons can we learn from that?

Thank god that the 76 did not need to perform an emergency evac.. non company cabin crew and an unconcious Capt....great stuff!!!!!!

[scanscanscan]

Pure stress.... adrenalin rush.....did it.... AnywayI always found things went better if I fainted and was not involved when something went wrong....legal faint...well rested.

[Best foot forward]

FLybeeeee I think you haven't expressed yourself very well, the AIB report doesn't BLAME anyone for the accident it merely points out that the primary responsibility for avoiding the collision lies with the Captain of the 767. The AIB quite rightly points out that even when following anATC clearance collision avoidance is still the crews ultimate responsibility, this doesn't only apply on the ground but is also applicable in the air.

I think it is a common international convention that AIB's do not apportion blame, they report facts. If their is any institution that apportions blame then it would be a court of law.

The AIB made three recomendations, non of them blamed the capt or crew of the 767.

[bushbolox]

Spottyemm,
There is nothing unprofessional about this 767 skipper. He was not feeling unwell and his medical was in tact.The rest is between him and his doctor. He is a highly experienced Longhaul pilot who had a bad night.

The cabin crew were excel crew trained in the sop for that aircraft, all approved by the CAA so where do you get the non company crew idea from. The guys flying had been on the contract for a considerable time and probably had (and still have) a better working relationshp than 80 % of the supersilious sounding colleagues of yours. Spotty M or spotty arse you lot are just charter oiks like the rest of us and thank god it wasnt you that made a mistake waiting to happen.