R/T status in KL FIR

[veloo maniam]

The ATC Union is conducting the reception status of our transmitters within the KL FIR. We would like to have your Very Honest Opinions about our radio transmissions. We would be very happy to receive your feedbacks/suggestions with regards to this matter. The ATCers have been voicing their unhappiness about the reception status by pilots to the Union. We are currently using 132.8/132.6/123.75/124.2/119.45/126.1/126.0/118.5/118.8/118.2/121.9 etc.These are some of the freq available at Subang and KLIA. This does not include the other stations. If u do have a problem, do let us know. Thank you all for your very honest answers. Secretary, Civil Aviation Air Traffic Control Services Union.

[jolly27]

:{

Thanks for allowing us to input on ATC RT. I do find when flying eastbound that 132.6 transmission gets really bad. It may be the range or the position of the antennae but anytime the aircraft goes above FL150 to FL250, transmissions become grabbled and sketchy, sometimes even cutting off altogether.

Regards
Jolly

[CFIT]

For the past 4 months, I could hardly hear Lumper Control on 132.6 on airway M751 from PK to about 60 NM north of PK up to FL370. Sometimes, KL ATC transmission keep cutting in and out, and many times just a complete cut off. All other areas on 132.6 (except east of the Malaysian peninsula) and 132.8 sounds just fine to me.

[tkoose]

third attempt at a reply. not so brilliant...:O

would the atc union kindly look into the range of the kul atis towards the south china sea...seems really weak or blocked.
find many guys resulting to requesting runway in use from sin atc.

may i also urge the controllers to slow down the speed of delivery, find it pretty hard to comprehend at times, especially when it gets busy, resulting in numerous unnecessary and tedious repetitions of clearances. ironically that's the worst time to have to repeat anything. mind you, i'm local.... :p

mobile phone interference can be experienced on 132.8 as we fly up north, speech does not sound like that of local language. personally suspect it sounds indonesian...can't be sure though, dialling,ring and busy tone can be made out pretty clearly. however it is not experienced all the time. when it does happen, it significantly reduces quality/readability of controllers transmissions.

hope to be of constructive info....

[ikan_terbang]

KUL ATC needs to be more professional in their RT transmission.
I do not think that it is poor equipment that is at fault but poor proper usage, that is the root cause.

[swh]

On 132.8 recently had what sounded like DTMF tones, someone using equipment like a radio phone patch. Brought it to the attention of controller, said telecom people had been informed for some time about this problem.

KL has some of the best controllers about when weather avoidance is required.

Sometimes a little trigger happy, not letting pilots to finish off reading back a clearance or instruction, blocking the frequency. Some of the speed reductions requested are unrealistic for arrival into WMKK.

As previously mentioned, VHF volmet stations on high terrain on to the north and south would help.

[flightleader]

Some of the controllers may have their mics to close to their mouth. Their transmission come through with the whoosing sound of the air coming out from their mouth or nose which made their speech rather like a back ground noise. If they can place their mics about 2 cm from the corner of their mouth and not directly infront of it.

ATIS on 126.45 is rather short range from the east. The SZB ATIS is alot more range.

It seems that sector and approach controller are reluctant to give in to request many times. This makes them look like they are not competant at it. Eg:

a/c: "Malaysian xxx request heading xxx due weather"
atc: " stby"

silence for a long time after that.

Perhaps this is better,

a/c:" Malaysian xxx request heading xxx due weather"
atc:" Malaysian xxx,expect short delay due traffic"

At least the pilots know why.

Also, most controller didn't state the a/c call sign clear enough and it has to be stated in each and every transmission to avoid confussion. Without the confussion,less transmission is needed.

Not matter what, you guys are alot better than what the newspapar said.


:ok:

[The Rage]

Ive been flying around this region for a while now, and lately 132.8 has been having prob's with loads of background noise. It became so irritating that i told the controller off to get him to do something bout it. As for the other freq's, they have been ok.
132.6 experiences congestion during certain times of the day, its mainly due to the short area of control that they have between 14000ft and PK.
Over east malaysia the coverage is preety good.

At one time pilots used to sit down and talk to atc quite a bit, but i think it should be started again. If ure from Atc, why dont u get in touch with MAPA and maybe they could work out a dialogue. At the same time get jump seat travel to singapore and honkong to see how the guys do it there. Atc kul could learn alot from them.

Im sure your president Encik Remli could get in touch with them.

ciao.

[Dani]

I'm a daily customer of KL ATC services and like to express my positive experience. Lumpur is one of the best services in the region. I never have problems with them, they are very clear to understand and technically the connection is working.

I fly out of SIN to Thai and Indonesian destinations.

Dani

[veloo maniam]

The Rage_ tks old chap 4 the suggestion.SIN and HKG are out of our Fam Flt Destinations. DCA approves only to JKT,Baali,BKK,Ho Chi Min n Manila. Fellas who have been havent really learnt anything new to improve R/T since these destinations don't really seem to offer much as far as ATC is concerned. Once again tks 4 your input. will do something about that. cheers. Happy New Year to all.:ok:

[vertalop]

As a low level chappie I would just like to say that reception on Lumpur Information (126.1) in the KL area can be very difficult with a loud background howl. It occurs to me that this may be because there is a repeater north and one south but that they interfere with each other in the middle, i.e around KL. Anyway whatever the reason reception seems to improve as one moves away from KL.

[jetrat]

dear veloo

just out of curiosity, why is sin and hkg not approved?
i'm not surprised to hear that the fellas who've done the fam flights have not found it useful.....it's probably BECAUSE flights into sin and hkg are not done. i personally think it should be done into these two airports only. the others that you mentioned would only be good for self consolation purposes.

but seriously, i really think sin and hkg would be the two best destinations for fam flights, as i think these two would make the trip worth it.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Jetrat, No idea man. Sometime ago MAS approved Munich,Sydney,HKG,Seoul n one more that I can't remember(probably Narita). All these were shelved(No idea by whom). Later regional destinations were approved but Sin n Hkg were out. What we ATCers at Lumpur really need to see n learn is peak hour management at airports where dual runway ops are practised. At least we don't have to keep them long on ground waiting for their departure. There is also too much of enroute holding during peak hours which is stressful for both pilot n controller. KLIA was designed to handle simoultaneous departure n landings. Years have passed by and we are still holding acft enroute b4 commencing approach into KLIA. Currently we are handling about 1K flts a day. I can't imagine if the flts go up to 2K a day. With the kind of reception we get on our side, any destination for a FAM Flt is a real welcome man. tks 4 tolerating us. cheers.

[jetrat]

veloo,

likewise with the tolerating thing. by the way, mh 737 is transitioning to new procedures at the moment, which means it'll most likely take a little longer for the guys to start taxying.(minimal though). may be relevant to the ground contollers, probably more so for stations like kch and bki for example, in case they're wondering.

how bout encouraging more controllers to this thread to share thoughts, since the teh tarik stall will be difficult to arrange.

[veloo maniam]

I have actually posted this website address at the ATCC Subang. Some of my colleagues at KLIA are also surfing this website. As a matter of fact I was introduced to this website by a B777 Capt. I have learnt a lot since then and has actually helped me to provide a better ATC service. This taxyiing thing for the MH 737's is something new. Let me know more about it so that I can pass it on to KLIA and other airports. I have been on board the 737's about 6 times last month and the intercom from the cockpit to the cabin isn't very clear. As an Air Traffic Controller I can understand every bit but unfortunately my fellow pax were wondering what the cockpit crew was telling. It was muffled at times. Maybe your avionics people should take a look into it. It would be good to check out the reception status by asking the cabin crew whether the transmission was clear. Just a suggestion. (Are we still not allowed into the cockpit??) In a recent meeting with MAS, we were told about a new procedure that MAS is coming up within the next few months...something called Flight Following. This is especially for the wide body. Sounds good for ATCers manning the Clearence Delivery at Subang. Help us to help u guys.

[jetrat]

veloo,

did you mean the public address systen in the aeroplane? yes yes have to agree. it's a constant point in our operations. i too have heard many that i thought were less than impressive, anyways, far too many factors to this problem. yes, the policy at the moment is still no jumpseat, however i should think that it can be arranged for atc guys if done officially.

probably a call to the correct people would take care of that.

the mh 737 thing mainly now involves doing all take off preparations BEFORE taxy, eg. flaps selection, flight control checks, which would have been done during taxy previously. so maybe a minute or two extra till the onset of requesting taxy clearance.


.

[lesenterbang]

The Rage_ tks old chap 4 the suggestion.SIN and HKG are out of our Fam Flt Destinations. DCA approves only to JKT,Baali,BKK,Ho Chi Min n Manila. Fellas who have been havent really learnt anything new to improve R/T since these destinations don't really seem to offer much as far as ATC is concerned. Once again tks 4 your input. will do something about that. cheers. Happy New Year to all.:ok:
To look better, compare yourself with those worse off:p Wonder if SIN is approved as well.

[veloo maniam]

Yes it's the public address system. I was on the A330 last month and the transmission was clear. It's the 737's. To say all 737's will be a sweeping statement but it so happened that the ones I was on board were not clear. A bit muffled. The idea is to get the message clearly over to the cabin. Pax cud only understand some words. Maybe u guys cud look into it. Tks too for the checks b4 taxyiing. This will keep the ground controllers BP at the same level. Will 4ward this to the Tower guys. Appreciate ur valuable inputs. About the cockpit visit: it's OK man..let the company make it's decision. I don't want to impose on the cockpit crew...but it will definitely help both parties if this policy is lifted..maybe u can speak to the right person n see what can be done BUT don't go out of your way. You guys are always welcome to the ATCC at Subang at any time. Let me now early. My No is 016-2312519

[flightleader]

Veloo,

Is there a must to space a/cs 7 to 8nm on the approach? We are quite used to 4 to 5nm apart as 1 cleared the 1st high speed taxiway,the other is 1/2nm out and get the clearence to land in US. I find that reducing the space can put more plane on the ground faster.Whenever I catch up the a/c in front to about 6nm the tower will instruct to slow down in KLIA.

[llchew]

7 - 8 nm spacing
Our current procedures require the following:
a) radar separation of 5 nm or wake turbulence separation whichever is greater; and
b) when the first aircraft crosses the threshold, the succeeding aircraft must be at least 5 nm from the threshold.
There are others in place when visibility goes below a certain value and so on but the above two are most significant.
When KLIA is operating on a segregated mode, most controllers aim for a 6-7 nm spacing on finals to achieve the requirements of para (b). Some do actually try and actually achieve a tighter spacing when wake turbulence is not an issue.
With traffic levels going up, it is only a matter of time that the spacing requirements will be reviewed.

[willflyer]

Hey this is totally amazing. I applaud all you ATCers for taking the trouble to come and have a dialogue with the pilots in an informal manner. This way we can each air our views and we know someone's listening!

I cannot believe why SIN isn't on your FAM flight list. It's one of the best in the region along with TPE and HKG. Please lobby forcefully on this.

Of course we pilots have bitched constantly about the endless holdings during both peak and even sometimes non peak hours. We do sympathise with the obviously harrassed controllers, though.

Here's some off the top of my head:-
1. Why not enforce speed controls like SIN and HKG do during peak hours? 250kts below 10,000ft, then you can choose who you want to speed up. Otherwise most of us will be happily charging down at 300kts until suddenly we're asked to slow down 220 out of the blue, or worse, hold.

2. Try and give track miles to go and sequence when radar vectoring. SIN always radar vectors really far off the track but they do strive to tell you your sequence and track miles to touchdown. This way we can adjust our rate of descent and our LNAV tracking accordingly. Also we won't have to worry if the ATC knows we're going to cross the centerline.

3. Some favourite waypoints you'd like us to hold at do not have published holding patterns in Jeppesen (Nipar or Pibos is an example, I think). Sometimes we don't know if it's a right and or left hand holding, or what's the inbound track.

Also I have a few questions:- Are the ATCers dual-runway approach approved? Is it still a requirement for the 5nm separation if both aircraft are on approach to different runways? How about dual runways takeoffs like in SIN?

Thanks and keep up the good work!

[veloo maniam]

to flightleader and wilflyer..keep it coming..were picking up your valuable points...we'll try to answer every question posted. my colleague llchew will be updating you guys in this forum.Effective 19th Jan at 2200utc we will introducing the unilateral routing for the eastern sector(132.6). For R32 gate out will be via PK and gate-in will be via PADLI(15nm South of PK) For R14 it will be vice-versa.Pls pass on to those who may be not aware of this arrangement.There will be also a a new holding point over Tioman. It is called VINIL.

[The Rage]

Good Day Old Chap,

Actually, its great to see u atc'ers come on line and get inputs.
Its a shame u guys cant get hkg and sin, maybe we can try to get that from our side to help u guys out.
Over the years ive operated into very congested terminals and like lhr the best. What u have going here over PK is a good start, next maybe u could have the freq's for both the airways there segregated, that way it cuts down on the chatter, london has that and u hardly hear dep's on the same freq, or arrivals on the other.
In lhr there were dep's and arr's every minute, im very comfortable with 5 nm seperations on app except when folloeing a 757, which we hardly get. Its quite common to get landing clearence at 500' in heathrow with the guy just clearing in front. Speed restrictions during peak hours is good, and have this implemented all the way on the star. Its also very common to get good speed management from the pilots themselves, something i strive from my young apprentice's. 160 till 4 miles is good.

The othere thing is to get flow control to separate a/c based on distance rather than time, and we can actually start slowing down very far out. I understand what u see on the radar is ground speed, therefore in cruise get the guys to reduce speed based on their G/S. Its common in europe for the controller to say "reduce ground speed by 20kts". But this should apply in high level cruise. The other bigger factor that i notice screws things up is wx in the terminal area. Maybe planes could all be vectored via overhead to the west if arr from east , coz the wx generally builds up over the main range. Have 1 app point where the guys should be vectored to, where they would be req to arrive at a certain speed based on dist as seperation.
If u guys are uncomfortable with dual runway approaches then try them during non peak hour's, as u build up confidence try them during peak hours. And planes should be put on the runway where they would be closes to in terms of parking position's, or have the w/b planes on 1 and narrow on the other, that way u reduce app seperation.

As ive said before, get your guys in touch with the association and maybe we could have a teh tarik session somewhere, maybe more. Thanks for the invite to ATC kl, would love to vist, have done bki and kch, and have got to know some off the guys there, and we exchange loads of info.
SQ and their atc guys do loads of this and maybe thats why they have improved a great deal. And this is the first steps that we have taken on that road.
Rome wasnt built in a day.

The Rage
Ciao.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Rage...tks 4 the inputs. We'll b great if pilots start lobbying 4 controllers about airports. That will be a win-win 4 Pilots n Atc. I have personally used the "reduce g/s by xxx" it worked until Flow Controller wanted something else. In Area Control all we need is 10nm separation (on Radar). In Approach it is 5nm.
Actually flow does a good job...until the Ipoh/Johore/Kuantan/ guys get a/borne suddenly. U have a string of them coming in from the East...all well arranged by Flow n out of the blues the 737's get a/borne from this nearby airfields n that's where all the speed and vectoring begins.B4 we hand over to Approach, there must b a min of 10NM. Yes we cud keep them on ground but it's not good for ATC as we wud be blamed 4 every delay. Someone said it is better to delay on ground than in the air...what's ur opinion? How about the 737's opinion? Priority is given to the PK inbound inorder to reduce the workload of the 132.6 ATCer. A lot of coordination takes place between Area Controller n Flow/Approach especially in bad wx. We'll start looking into ur inputs n c how we can smoothen up things. After the unilateral routes for PK, we are going to split the 132.6 into two sectors, hopefully by the end of 2006. That will greatly reduce Controller workload as now one Controller has to monitor tfc over PK/VKB/IGARI(inbound and outbound from Penang) via VKB and also tfc climbing out of SIN to BKK n vice-versa.ATS is working on it and we are glad to c some progress now.So when can we have the teh-tarik session?Cheers

[flightleader]

Yeah, Unilateral near PK is great.

Recently I had a few morning departure in KLIA arround 9 to 10am peak period. I was once number 8th. Tower was rather confuse to sequence a/c at the holding point.Couple of widebodies on taxiway H,AAsia hogging A8 (a few of them) and tower couldn't decide which a/c go A11,A10 and A9. I bet some of the widebody had waypoint crossing to comply with.

Anyway, the issue I would like to highlight is that using 2 runways with 32R for depature and 32L for arrival in this condition is the same as using 1 runway. The no.2 a/c couldn't takeoff until no.1 is 9nm out(or 3 minutes),the time of waiting is good for an a/c to land on 32R,turn off while no.2 line up and takeoff in turn.In this is done on both runways,capacity would be double.Perhaps for a start,make some of the widebody from satelite building proceed to 32L for departure while those a/c closer to 32R use 32R for departure.A lot of the international airport assign a/c to use the runway closest to its bay,SIN,TPE.....However,I'm not very sure App and Area control could handle this,just that I've seen it been done elseway and hope KLIA can come up to speed.From pilots point of view,we are quite happy as long as the landing clearence come before 500'.

A little off topic, I hope DCA could issue a NOTAM/AIC to remind pilots to minimised thrust usage at TGG,LGK,AOR etc as there are always people on the apron eg:cargo handler,traffic staff even pax just disembark from another a/c.Some places have folks standing by the fence waving and the a/c turn 180 add power and blast these folks in the face as it taxy away.I've witness an old man carrying an infant ran for cover and duct behind a pile of dirt as a 737 increase thrust for a cross bleed start in TGG. I hope this issue could be arrested before someone get hurt.

[jetrat]

llchew....welcome aboard....
velloo, padli thing should work out great. i'm sure you have already noticed the high number of requests for a direct routing towards istan for the flights from kch.:)


recently, i insisted on delaying the start even after the tower cleared us. let's put it this way, one way or another, if the airport is congested, the reports would indicate delay due atc to a certain degree, although it may not be very accurate. that i'd have to say is due in part to the way our reporting is done,
anyways, twenty minutes at the holding point against twenty minutes at the gate without the engines started, burning precious liquid gold and spewing out hot invisible poison, would not do any of our children and future generation any good, i believe. really hope you agree.......

i believe the way to do it is to make sure that the RATE of which the aircrafts arrive at the holding point remains more or less constant once it gets busy. mind you, klia is not the only busy airfield. we face very similiar situations in other congested airports too....therefore i say, save the gold.....

[jetrat]

ah ...how about kayu nasi kandar, ss2......
me hates traffic. figure i'd quickly suggest a location to suit me.....:}

may i also be bold enough to say, that the controllers speak too fast when it gets busy. so much repeats could have been avoided. i think its not a problem when it's not busy, but when it is, we need to slow down the r/t compared to a normal non busy state. more traffic, more stress, more chances of missing calls, and more speed definitely will not help.

that i'd like to add, is the major difference between heathrow and los angeles. both extremely busy airports, however,pilots for a foreign carrier into these two airports, will likely find lhr to be very pleasant. too many words in a sentence for the same clearance, in an accent that pilots may not be accustomed to.

i remember a friend of mine who was training a new co-pilot, this co-pilot is a local boy, trained for his initial license locally, but found much difficulty with the r/t in kl. however, he did not face the same problem in sin. i think it's the speed of delivery and of course the level of standard phrasiology. please tell the guys not to speak as they normally would, but slower, cos we can't see their lips moving and their facial expressions...

by the way, velloo, it's the same problem with the less than comprehendable announcements on the 737.....

[llchew]

DCA had a meeting with the airline operators operating at KLIA in 2005 (or was it 2004?). During that meeting I gave a presentation on operations into and out of KLIA - what pilot's can expect from ATC and what ATC expects from pilots. The major operators, MH, SQ, TSE, AK sent in their pilots. Unfortunately, most of the foreign carriers only sent their station reps, all non-pilots. Anyway, these were the salient points.

Arrivals
All arrivals into KLIA are "flowed". Sitting between the App-North and App-South controllers is the FLOW controller. He sets his radar monitor to 200 NM. The moment an arrival comes within radar coverage, a landing time is calculated based on a the normal speed profile for the aircraft type. Assuming we have 6 arrivals for Rwy 32 and their landing times are as follows:

Aircraft A 0010 from DAKUS
Aircraft B 0010 from ISTAN
Aircraft C 0012 from ISTAN
Aircraft D 0013 from VMK
Aircraft E 0014 from ISTAN
Aircraft F 0018 from VMK

The FLOW controller will probably plan to achieve the following landing times. He does this by sending instructions to the en-route controller who in turn will issue the instructions to the aircraft before top of descent.

Time How?
Aircraft A 0008 Maintain high speed, expect track shortening
by radar vectors for 10 NM finals
Aircraft B 0010 Normal speed profile
Aircraft C 0012 Normal speed profile
Aircraft D 0015 Aircraft to descend at 270 knots
Aircraft E 0017 Aircraft to descend at 260 knots
Aircraft F 0019 Aircraft to descend at 280 knots

So, if you are aircraft E, you'd get this on 132.6. You can actually plan to leave your level earlier. Most times, this works out fine.

Our problems
Remember this planning is often done when you are way, way out. It is subject to:
a) weather;
b) departures from nearby airports like Ipoh, Kuantan and Subang and
very rarely, missed approaches from KLIA. Of
course, ATC can always hold these aircraft but more often than not, we
try to absorb them;
c) aircraft leaving the holding pattern too late. The above example does not
have a holding instruction but if there is and the pilot leaves the stack 2
minutes late, that will eat into the FLOW controller's planned landing time;
d) finally, controller screw-up. Yes, that happens. With the radar screen set
at 200 NM and radar labels all over, sometimes the FLOW controller
misses out on an arrival in between the others that he has planned.

Whenver the above happens, new sequences are worked out and instructions issued. By this time, the aircraft should be with the Approach controllers. You'd get instructions to slow down when the original, or speed up or blah blah blah.

Having been involved with the FLOW program from the very beginning, I can say that it works out most of the time. It would be the exception rather than the rule that you'd find yourself getting seemingly contradictory instructions from the en-route and the Approach controllers. If you find that you keep experiencing this, then you probably need to bathe with 7 types of flowers to "buang sueh".

The FLOW program is based on the one used in Melbourne.

Speed control
Unless you are issued with a "high speed" instruction, 250 KIAS below 10000 ft. should be observed. When using speed control, the controllers have been advised to keep aircraft at minimum clean speed of 210 - 220 for as long as possible. Again, there will be times that this is not possible. At finals, we may impose speed of 190 knots until 7 miles.

I agree that if speed reference points are included in the STARs it would simplify things. Currently, we have a couple of operators who will reduce to around 120 -130 GS about 10 NM out!

Track miles
I agree that this is not done as often as I like. The guys I spoke to say that even though track miles is not given, they are monitoring and if they feel that you are on the high side, they will ask - are you ready for base? or something to that effect.

Intercepting GP from below while under radar vectors
It was agreed with the local operators, MH and AK that to reduce track miles, aircraft may be radar vectored to intercept the LLZ and, at times, the aircraft may not intercept the GP from below.

Own navigation for 10 nm finals
Again it was agreed with the local operators that the aircraft cleared to intercept 10 nm finals under own navigation shall intercept at 12 nm and be fully established at 10 NM. This is usually restricted to aircraft coming in from GUPTA or VMK from the south or ISTAN from the east when Rwy 32 is in use. When 14 is in use, then flights from INTOT to PIBOS may be offered. I, personally, prefer to radar vector.

Dependent arrivals to both runways
Currently, independent approaches are not allowed. Dependent arrivals are allowed but the diagonal spacing is still 5 NM. Assuming that 32 is in use, the arrival runway shall be 32L and the departure 32R. ATC does not offer 32R unless requested. There were complaints raised by some pilots departing 32R when they had to wait for the arrival.

Departures
First of all, you might be interested to know that "Lumpur Delivery" is situated at Subang Air Traffic Control Centre and not at KLIA. ATC clearances are normally available almost immediately. For flights within radar coverage, you'd get your requested level. For, flights into the South China Sea, Bay of Bengal or south to Australia, we have a no-PDC arrangement where intitial levels between FL250 to FL320 may be offered depending on the agreement.

We had discussions debating using slot times over a waypoint or using timed spacing at departure based on Mach Number Technique. We decided on timed spacing at departure as it optimises the slots. The drawback is that the pilot will be in the dark on the position of the other aircraft. It is up to Lumpur Ground to time your push back taking into consideration taxy times to the holding point and the number waiting at the holding point.

Wake turbulence separation
I have had many requests to reduce the departure separation. The trouble is the procedures allow it but the AIP is very clear - the pilot in command shall expressly initiate the waiver. That takes care of the departure but if both aircraft are headed in the same direction, Approach needs to hand over the two aircraft with 10 NM in trail separation (no closing speed) or vertically separated. This in turn increases the work load when step climbing is involved. I would like to see closer spaced departures but you'd have to do your part.

Departures from both runways
We actually tried this out in 2005, twice in fact. We used SIDs and not the parking bay as the criteria to decide on the runway. This was to avoid criss-crossing after departure. After the trials, a post-mortem was conducted and MAS said that the gains were negligible especially when Rwy 32 was in use. During the morning rush, most departures were eastbound plus the taxy time to 32L was excessively long. During the trials, we had an A330 to Penang going for 32L. When the aircraft reached the holding point, there 3 arrivals all spaced at minimum spacing necessitating a further 8-minute wait at the holding point!

With the LCC terminal situated so near to 32R, there may be even greater reluctance to taxy to 32L.

Anyway, DCA is very aware of the departure jam at certain times of the day and we are always willing to try various options.

I believe the design of the runways with their huge stagger is an impediment.


I hope this gives you a better picture of KLIA operations. I know it is not exhaustive. I'll be more than happy to explain more over nasi kandar at Kayu.

Cheers.

[veloo maniam]

I too have noticed the thrust power of acft at local aerodromes. Tks 4 the concern with rgds to the apron staff and the enthusiasts along the fence. Will all pilots agree to this is debatable but will look into it. I remember many years ago two young boys who were watching a F27 from behind the fence were invited by the Capt to visit the cockpit.After staring into the cockpit they remarked "kapal ini ada banyak jam lah". Though it sounds funny, I wished that day that this two boys would someday be involved in the field of aviation. As for me, I was once caned in the public because of an airplane that flew over our school during assembly time.While singing the national anthem, I was looking at the plane instead of the flag being raised.Such was my desire for aeroplanes but that's history.Till today I make it a point to educate the public n friends about the joys of flying n ATC by organising small tower n atc visits for whoever is interested especially children who are between 10-16yrs.I've been with the ATS for 31years and have another 7 to go and I hope to get more Malaysians understand the aviation environment better.Just briefed a couple of freshies from MAS last week about what's happening at the ATCC.I strongly believe in a good rapport between pilots and ATCers.Tony Fernandez personally walked into the ATCC sometime ago and personally shook hands with every ATCer on duty and something he said really touched the hearts of those who were on duty that morning. Quote "I really appreciate the service you guys are providing for us" Unquote.I am not putting him on a pedestal.Far from it. That personal h/shake meant a lot to the ATCers.Period.As for me, he's another ATC customer BUT here is man who has come out of his tight schedule to convey his appreciation thus strenthening the rapport between Controllers n his company.The key word here is rapport.I hate all this official meetings where minutes are kept and hours wasted. nasi kandar kayu at SS2 is fine.We want to help you guys save on the liquid gold man. On the longer run everyone will benefit especially the ENVIRONMENT and our children.

[veloo maniam]

Have you guys ever wondered the kind of congestion you are going to get into with the new LCC Terminal at 32R? Is there any task force in MAS doing any studies? Any meetings with DCA or is it going to be the usual "we'll cross the bridge when we get to it" attitude. MAS should be pro-active in this matter and start the ball rolling now.Cheers.

[jetrat]

dear velloo and chew,

personally am all for a teh tarik session, however i believe it'll be pretty difficult to get big numbers, due to the schedule of our guys in mh at the moment. will definitely give you a call soon, and i hope to be able to get at least 2 or three guys along. i'm sure it used to be a lot easier those days when slightly more intoxicating fluids was involved. it's just that it's a more sober nowadays. let us know if you have a preffered time and/or day of the week.



by the way, you'll have to put up with our youth too!!!!!:p

[veloo maniam]

Tks Jetrat we'll keep in-touch.The number seems right.Don't worry about the youth, we are quite used to them by now as it is the same on our side...apparantly they all seem to know everything within the Milky Way.Our roster is kinda fixed so much so that we can accomodate somehow..it's your tight schedules that might stand in the way n with the CNY holidays around the corner we'll c how we can adapt. I'll call u brother!Teh-tarik is absolutely fine.

[flightleader]

llchew,

Thank for the detail explaination. We shall all continue this effort to make our airspace better.:ok:

[flightleader]

Here is a question for all,

When ATC say "You are cleared Ismas 1B arrival,clear VOR DME approach Runway 22" Does this clearence allow a/c to leave the last assigned altitude even if the a/c has been maintaining higher than the initial approach altitude?
In other words,is it correct for ATC to clear the a/c for approach without bringing it down to initial approach altitude??

I've notice KLIA or anyway else always bring the a/c down to initial approach altitude before clearing it for approach except BTW 125.8.There have been a few times they did that and I've personally rang them to have a chat.The supervisor insisted that was taught in ATC school.Like KLIA the approach controller would say " Clear descend 3000' not below star steps and clear for approach runway 32l",right?

[llchew]

Flightleader,
I agree with you. You should be cleared down to IAA of that particular approach prior to the approach clearance. I will relay your experience to our Inspectorate Division. They are the guys who conduct proficiency checks on the military controllers at BTW.

[jetrat]

just wanted you guys to know that the mh 73 fleet was ill prepared for the implementation day before. literature for the aip was not available at the office. notams did not have cordinates for the points and neither did the rnav data base. sigh!!!!

:\

[willflyer]

I flew on the 20th (1 day after implementation) and the AIP supplements were there.

The Nav database is, of course, usually not updated that quickly...to be fair all us pilots were informed rather late, about a week before implementation date or so. The a/c Honeywell FMCs are only updated like every two weeks.

What's unforgivable are the computerized flight plans not being updated. Just flew back from Kuching and the flightplan is still boldly M761.PK.ISTAN. That one I cannot say anything.

[veloo maniam]

It's not only he 737's that wasn't sure of the implementation of this new routes.Even the wide bodies were tracking for PK ISTAN.It's OK with ATC for a start. (Coordinates for PADLI 030918N 1033133E) .Give a few more days and the dust will settle down. Just finished one complete cycle on this sector (132.6). Things were pretty smooth EXCEPT for pushing down southbound tfc from BKK to SIN a bit early. The requirement is to ensure all southbound acft into SIN X PK F330 which I personally find that it is NOT necessary at all. The other is tfc inbound to KLIA via M763 TXL Y331 PIBOS. Are the wide Body guys comfortable with this arrangement? What about fuel burn? We may track acft to ISTAN somewhere between TXL n PIBOS tfc permitting. A bit uncomfortable to those flying into and out of Subang though(depending on the RWY in use at KLIA).We will be reviewing some of this arrangements on the 25th. at 9am. Give us your feedback. Also interested to hear from those using M751 SIN-BKK n vice versa.We are still experiencing readability problems on a intermittent basis around 20NM East of PK.Any comments?

[The Rage]

How's it going Chaps?

Just a couple of days back heard 132.6 chew up an express bloke for not listening out. And the bloke had the cheek to tell the controller to check his radio, when it was preety obv he was the one with the prob.

Just a point on a few very basic radio procedures where i beleive we have developed a few very bad malaysian habits.

1. Not listening out before changing to a new freq to c if anyone is actually transmiting. I dont see why a person has to change over and straight away start blabering away. LISTEN OUT FIRST.

2. Every clearence is always repeated with a "confirm". That has become like "lah". If u listen out, then they wont need to "CONFIRM". It has become a habit!


Sometimes there's way too much chatter which during peak periods cause unnessesary congestion.

When's the teh tarik thingy, count me in. Prefer the more intoxicating stuff, but i guess for a start this would do.

Tony, is one dude who knows good PR! Dam good at it as well. If mh had 1% of what he does im sure we wouldnt be in this mess.
Tony, if u ever read this forum's , well hat's off to u old boy, ill give u that!:ok:

The Rage
Ciao

[veloo maniam]

Hi Rage..tks old chap..nice to hear from you...when u say Express did u mean Fedex or Asian Express.I have observed that Asian Express quite often identify themselves as Express n so do Fedex. I always identify AK as Asian Express inorder not to confuse with Fedex who have been identifying themselves as Express since when Pontius was Pilate. Yeah..about the freq change n tx without listening out seems to be a pain in the neck many a times. We tend to keep our BP normal by just saying "u have been cut out say again pls"(sorry the please is there only on rare occassions). That teh-tarik thingy is just around the corner..waiting for Jetrat to be back from Timbaktu.Teh-tarik will be fine for a start.Tea will not confuse us much. Rage give me your opinion on this: u would have observed that the STAR is given to all acft that is inbound to KLIA. If there are 7 guys coming in from the East, the same STAR is given one by one to all 7.This lengthens the RT and shortens our lifespan.U guys are very familiar with the STAR.What exactly is enough for u guys? Wud something like this b gud?
"MH123 Nipar3A 32l via Istan b gud enough" or do u prefer the STAR to be on the CATIS. I am looking for ways to cut down on RT for tfc inbound via Padli/PK.tks 4 replies.

[The Rage]

Interesting point u've brought up there! Ive heard SID's being broadcast on the ATIS before, but dont recall any STAR's. Would be interesting to See how the guys react to this. It would certainly cut down the chatter. But i suppose it would only work for the 1 STAR, being PADLI Nipar 3A, Istan A. I beleive the other east inbound Stars would still req alt clearence due to outbound traffic. I suppose as a note on the ATIS, it could be mentioned that 'inbounds traffic from pos xxx are cleared on the xxx xxxx! But before that please check if it is allowed to pass clearence tru the atis, but at the same time it should only be during peak hours and on any 1 route only. Also to make sure the guys have the correct atis info. It also hepls to keep the atis short, otherwise it might take too long for us to be listening into the atis.
I guess Jetrat is back from Timbuktu, give him a call, beleive he has his number published or PM him.

It was Asian Express.

The Rage
Ciao.

[veloo maniam]

we'll look into it. Have to get the opinion of the Inspectorate guys.Good input.
tks
ciao

[CI54]

Hello everyone,

This is a lot better than going through the motion of writing a letter requesting an audience and such...

With regards to the arrival clearances on ATIS, I believe there is a problem with that from the standpoint of R/T failure. Its a protocol issue that can definitely be remedied if everyone puts their head in it.

What I can suggest is something like this. R/W info is given in the ATIS, therefore ATIS can say R/W 32R for departure, R/W 32L for arrival. On first contact, the clearance will be 'XXX, maintain level, cleared Istan transition Nipar 3A'. That cuts down from 'XXX cleared on NIPAR 3A Arrival, R/W 32L, Istan A Tx, maintain FL 330. Its a lot shorter when you actually verbalize it.

My 2 sen.

[veloo maniam]

Hello CI54, good point.noted.i'll talk to the policy makers soon.
cheers.Definitely worth > than 2sen.

[veloo maniam]

Hello members of PPRUNE utilising the KUL ATC SERVICES: We wish all members celebrating the Chinese New Year a very happy Gong Xi Fa Cai. May our relationship improve for the betterment of the aviation community through PPRUNE.Civil Aviation Air Traffic Control Services Union.

[flightleader]

Why not rename the STARs into numbers like in China, Instead of saying"Nipar Three Alpha Arrival,Istan transition,Runway 32L", Why not just " STAR 3 for 32L"? Just use numbers. Same STAR with different transition can be put as different numbers.

They name their local hospital by numbers too!

[veloo maniam]

Tq Flightleader....an interesting point u have brought up. The operational ATCers have been discussing this method b4 BUT as usual it is still at the level of discussion.STAR 3 wud suffice as traffic from the east is increasing. We are also experiencing an increase from the North (132.8) lately.I'll forward this sugestion to the ATS guys and see what they can do about it.R/T congestion is something we wud like to do away with.One more thing...we are observing a number of False Idents on our Radar Screens.We are quite used to the sqawk codes n we normally ignore them. However on two occasions , Pilots reported tfc on their TCAS. Once was by Transmile n the other by Silkair.I wud like to know whether any of u guys have picked up these false idents. Pls let us know. It really gives us a jolt when the pilot requests for tfc info at same level, especially within the TMA where there is a lot of radar clutter.:{

[jetrat]

hi there veloo,

i have to agree with flight leader on the numbering suggestion. not only does it make it easier for us when there are so many arrivals involved, i'm sure it helps the foreign crew even more. how many times have you had to repeat nipar for eg. to the foreign crew. instead of: "ni-par-three-al-pha-is-tan-al-pha-tran-si-tion-run-way-three-two-left", no-vem-ber-one, would SERIOUSLY help everyone. save you a couple of litres of water too.....

in fact, instead of changing the name of the stars all together, which may involve too much of a change, you could ADD a prefix. to reflect the existing stars,
something like N3A for the same arrival, also, for a first step towards reducing rt,how about NOT including the r/w 32L as part of the star name. after all, runway in use is already broadcast in the ATIS. just nipar 3a via istan would suffice.... it's an 8 syllable transmition, instead of the present 17, not mentioning the readback part. that's more than half the amount of saliva and breath saved.....

pull tea after i fetch the family back from the kampung!!!!!!:\

[veloo maniam]

Ok Jetrat, let all this CNY holiday thingy settle down first.Get the family back safely, that's the no.1 thing. we'll tarik the tea later.
ni-par-three-al-pha-is-tan-al-pha-tran-si-tion-rwy-three-two-left. U must b joking.all saliva gone.Only thing left will be R32.

[The Rage]

Question? Do u actually pick it those targets up on secondary or primary radar?

The reason i mentioned this is, ive had tcas displays before without alt readout. It usually happens out at sea. In our airspace ive seen it over lumut and over the rigs in the south china sea. After frantically looking out i notice its usually a navy ship, maybe it could be carrying a heli or something, but on most encounters i beleive its that or sometimes it could be light a/c traffic outside of your jurisdiction, Maybe.

"I think We're short of two engines my dear"

The Rage
Ciao

[veloo maniam]

These targets are picked up by both pri n sec radar. They usually appear between PK n dashes across on a heading of 290 towards Lumut and vice-versa.They also do appear quite often along the fringes of Lumpur TMA around the Bentong(ADNUT) area.Frightening at times because the G/Speed is of a jet acft aprox 460-480kts.Cioa

[CI54]

Hello,

Just got back from flight yesterday. My observation was that on 132.6, the quality of transmission by KL ATC is still poor after the coast. Is there any way to install a repeater station somewhere on top of a hill so we can have better quality transmission on this frequency? This is especially important because there are a lot of flights to and from the orient and some of the flightjocks have a bit of a problem understanding the English language. With a less than satisfactory transmission from you guys, the job is made 300% more difficult for everybody.

I also observed the following:

1) At times, there are some clearances that are not read back satisfactorily but the ATC does not request another readback.
2) At times, there are aircrafts coming out from the satellite taxiways while another is taxiing on taxiway G or F. Due to the different frequencies, there is no opportunity for monitoring the frequency. I suspect there is a potential for an incident or worst accident in the future if we do not resolve this.
3) This is not my original idea, but its worth a look. Due to the ATC now taking the initiative to delay start clearance (which I support wholeheartedly), why don't you guys impose this also: pilots are to request for ATC clearances only after they are fully ready, not 5 minutes before pushback. There are times when we think that its 5 minutes to go but last minute we had to delay because of passenger, cargo problems etc. Therefore, it will not be fair to the rest that is by then ready because they called 2 minutes later. This is already being done in HKG and certain Chinese airports.
4) To further optimise the pushback, why dont we make a study of the pushback and taxi time from each bay. Later on, we will be able to optimise the pushback time for everyone at every bay and further improve the runway utilisation. In the big airports in the US, they have softwares to monitor traffic movement around the airport and they have a specific frequency called 'metering' to ensure the runway/s remains 'hot'.

Thats all for now...

[The Rage]

Well its probably the Fast Jet Jocks out of Kuantan or maybe Butterworth doing something that their boses are not aware off. But i dont think low level military a/c have to report to u guys, do they?

We used to get loads of them, where we were trained, and usually they flew 500'Agl and below. No one knew where and when they would appear. Maybe the guys at JATCC next door might know a thing or 2.

Other conspiracy theories:
Unauthorised flts at high level, Who??

Genetically modified migratory birds.

Jetrat playing games with u guys from Bentong, ex-commiee.:ok:

The Rage,
Ciao.

P.S. When's the get together?:D

[veloo maniam]

Hello CI54, when u say 132.6 is still poor after the coast, I reckon u are eastbound.Correct me if I am wrong.Will discuss with the right "Pengarah" at DCA and see if the signal strength can be increased.(this will include a meeting with Telekom so don't expect things to move fast) Your KLIA observation has been passed to the person concerned.Tks 4 highlighting potential incidents.As for your other highlights someone from KLIA will be answering.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Rage, it's definitely not the jocks from the a/force. The sqawk codes are always the same (7224/5224 etc) The sqawk codes from BUT and KUA are different.Even the low-level guys are known to us as they switch over to Flt Info.These are targets that appear everyday. Just got back from work.There were 4 this morning between VBA and GUNIP.Yesterday there was one at F430 and the target was quite close to one Indian Airlines A320. I asked the PIC whether he has that target(psn given) on his TCAS. The answer was -ve.So take heart my friend, it wasn't Jetrat, it's our ageing radar screens.
Teh-Tarik..how about the 12th of FEB. It's a Sunday. 4.30pm Kayu Restaurant SS2 PJ .Other suggestions welcome. Chew is at DCA HQ on Office Hours.

[CI54]

Hello veloo_maniam,

Thanks for the excellent response. Already seeing some procedural changes made by Lumpur Ground. Observed the frequency changes to 122.15 when aircrafts from satellite enters F or G. Good on ya, mate:ok: !

Had the opportunity to fly north east and east. My observation is the degradation of the quality of area control transmission is when one is flying towards/from PK and north east of the peninsula. If one is flying toward/from Padli side, the quality of transmission is really good. So, there is a good chance that the problem is really not from the ATC side but from the telekom side. Hope we can resolve this soon.

Will look forward to that teh tarik session to discuss about the other issues...

Regards.

[The Rage]

Ok see u guys on the 12th, ill be back at about 12, but should be able to make it. Kayu sounds good!

The Rage
Ciao.

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers..the teh-tarik thingy has been postponed to Monday 13th 4.30pm. Venue is the same: Restoran KAYU SS2 PJ. See ya on Monday.:ok:

[Brianigham]

Hi Veloomaniam and guys,
Interesting thread . The only one in pprune I have read over and over.
Thanks for switching dates to the 13th......looks like I might be able to make it after all.
An idea on the flights departing IPH/KUA/SZB. Could the respective Tower guys give you an estimate on their airborne time to avoid their sudden arrival on the scene. Maybe we could also give an ETA over "dakus" for instance, to assist with the planning.
Another thing with STARS:
As a pilot, I just love it when the STAR is followed as planned......or track shortening. This is because of the gold juice factor. I am sure you guys would just love that too. Put them all on rails with automatic magnetic force giving the required spacing. But then of course .......:)
What I feel would be helpful is getting a track mile count as soon as the STAR has to be discontinued for any reason. This can do a lot for fuel conservation.
My thoughts on RT quality and equiptment are a little to bold for publishing.;)
but hey....
I've flown around quite a bit myself, and find the quality of controllers here quite good. There must be a concerted effort by the GOVT to get out of this second fiddle mentality. Get the best equipment, spend the money,get the controllers all the exposure,training and support they need. As a tax paying citizen, involved in aviation and understanding the importance of having fully serviceable modern equiptment for ATC I am sad at the state of affairs. The customer knows that the machinery is creaky. nuff said there.
Keep up the good work guys. I have seen some "best in the world" vectoring and controling right here in my backyard.....no kiddin! And you guys know it too. I can feel the great sense of victory all the way up there, when a plan comes together and everything falls into place like the conclusion of a great symphony.
:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi Brianigham..tks 4 jumping on board..glad to hear your observations.
Yes..as a matter of fact ATC at SZB is aware of these departures from local aerodromes. In fact we have to make a request from Flow Control with regards to clearences for such depatures. This is actually a concerted effort by the AREA PROCEDURE Controller n the Flow Controller.He has to ensure that these departures do not actually interfere the normal arrivals. However due to increasing tfc we really can't keep them on ground for too long. Hence at times we let them go and do some vectoring n speed controls to bring them in. ATC is quite particular with the KUA depatures as a lot of tfc from the EAST is a norm these days. Yes, the ATD(Actual time of dep) is passed to us. Sometimes as AreaRadar Controllers, we will quickly call up the other aerodromes n check the position of the acft. Based on this info, we will advise the Tower Controllers to either delay or give a slot time. Have taken into account the track miles available when STAR is discontinued. As u might be aware the separation needed in Area Radar is 10nm whereas in Approach is 5nm. If u are trailing another acft with less than 10nm, help us to slow down to ensure the 10nm. It will be a great help to us. Yes, we ATCers know the conditions of the overall equippment. The Minister himself has assured that there will be new Air Traffic Equippment by the end of this year. Until then we have to carry on somehow. They are moving at snails pace because a lot of this equippment has been tied up with the Kota Baru and Johore Radar projects. This is the Sad story as far as ATC equippment is concerned. The Union is keeping tabs and will see what the outcome is going to be. It will be great if u guys keep posting the shortcomings in Lumpur FIR. At least the DCA will know that the Union is NOT Exagerrating or sensationalising things.The crux of the message is AIR SAFETY. Just imagine ATCer's transmitting 3 times in busy moments to the same acft. Mind u this is only the clearance. My question is what if it is a matter concerning AIR SAFETY? C U at Kayu. ciao.

[veloo maniam]

Hi guys...the teh-tarik session was a real good eye-opener to all of us at ATC. I must congratulate the six pilots and five ATCers who attended the session. Yes..no doubt about it, we all learnt something new. All the whys were answered. Thanks too for MAPA reps. I think a lot more can be achieved thru this type of informal gatherings. We all shud be thankful to PPRUNE for a forum like this whereby pilots n ATCers can share their views for the betterment of the aviation environment in the KUL FIR.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers..just back from a meeting between IATA/MAS at FMB KLIA. ATC was invited. Me n my friend attended.As some of u might b aware IATA is campaining for "SAVE 1 MINUTE" Initiative. I told IATA that it is a norm these days to give track shortenings which range anywhere between 1-3 mins. U wud observed that a no. of flts are given track shortenings. What ATC wud like to know is whether this fuel saving initiatives are helping u guys at all.
For eg:
MH2 FPL on P628 KUL-LHR. Normal FPL distance from SUKAT-VPL-GIVAL will be 293.6NM. But we are giving SUKAT-GIVAL which works out to 273.6NM, a savings of 20NM.
For SIN departures there is an additional savings of 34.2NM bcos we track them direct abm ARAMA-SUKAT-GIVAL. Therefore a departure from SIN saves a total of 54.2 track miles.
For a flight from SIN-PUT there is a total of 39.2NM savings by giving a direct track from Abm Arama dct VPL.
By providing a direct track from AGOSA to Tamos 22.1NM is knocked out.All this track shortenings are provided based on tfc conditions without comprimising Air Safety.
ATC doesn't know the amount of fuel saved in Kilos. and the amount saved in USD. Whatever it is,this 'saved' amount is actually adding to your weight at the point of arrival. I don't think this will be a problem for short haul flts. However the long haul flts are carrying on with this 'saved' fuel for a longer period.At least this was what was highlighted in the meeting.Somebody pls advise whether track shortenings really help u guys. A minute saved is worth about US100 (IATA statistics):ok: cheers

[Virtual Reality]

Hi Veloo,

Just a matter of interest, when are you guys going to have PDC clearance via ACARS, D-ATIS and CPDLC/ADS ?? Advantages - everyone knows how useful are these tools ........ Many thanks

[veloo maniam]

It will take another 10 months to replace existing radar monitors which are already blurring. The new tools that u have mentioned is something the next generation of ATCers might get to place their hands on. At the moment we are not even in the list of 'everyone knows how important these tools are'.It takes a pro-active department to look into such things BUT sad to say we are very far from it.That's the virtual reality.:{

[The Rage]

Veloo old boy,

Any track shortining is a bonus, mostly in the long run. If its a significant shortening yes it shows up straight away, in terms fuel and time especially when airframe time is also a factor these days.

Shall do the teh tarik thinggy again, was nice to finally meet the people behind the voice.

Cheers.
The Rage

Ciao

[Brianigham]

Dear Veloo,

Thanks heaps for the track shortening. Yupp every minute does count, not only in terms of fuel, but also engine time etc.

How much we actually save per minute would be very subjective. There are many variables to consider, for example a/c type, weight etc.

The actual feedback from the number crunchers, on data.......of actual savings due to these "leaning" initiatives.....is as always hard to come by, even to us "fuel burning, control column manipulating, rudder kicking folks"

However the concern about the fuel saved being carried along, is something we pilots kinda like. Its like a trump card, or at least a piece of it, that we try to collect bit by bit.

Cheers!

[veloo maniam]

Tks again guys..will continue with the track shortenings. A colleague of mine will be working on the track miles available reports as soon as STAR is discontinued. Currently due to radar clutter within the TMA this practice is not widely done but something is coming up.P/s once descend speed restrictions are given, dct tracks won't be available for arrivals. For departures it will be based on traffic conditions.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

How does a diversion affect u guys n what kind of reports do you submit?There were 7 diversions yesterday(17th FEB in the evening). Mainly due to weather at KLIA and enroute holding due to RWY change.Four went to PEN. One to SZB n two to JHB.As for us, we log down the diverting acfts c/sign n reason. Thanks 4 the replies.

[jetrat]

hi there velloo..........

just wondering, what's the best way to report stuff about the klia...i.e taxiway, lighting etc.

i am particularly interested in reporting about the really serious BUMPS the narrowbodies have to endure everytime we transition from a concrete portion to the tarred portion of taxiways/apron/runway...

i'm sure you may have noticed that on your rides too...the really significant ones are of course those at the beginning of the runways,

it really feels like the whole plane is breaking apart....

your comments.....

[veloo maniam]

Hi Jetrat..I quite agree with u. It's like sitting on a horse everytime u are approaching the Runway. I may be wrong but I think the transition into R14R is bad. It's MAB's responsibility. Tarring will involve plenty of RM. Perhaps Airport Standards in DCA might throw in some light. Let me talk to my friend. I will post whatever the info I get. In the meantime kindly advise your pax to take up horse riding.Cheers.

[Brianigham]

:ok: :D :D

[flightleader]

Veloo,

Typically a diversion on a 737 to say PEN would burn around 1700kgs just to fly there. It would probably sit on the ground in PEN for refuelling and weather to clear in KUL. Then it would burn another 1700kgs to fly to KUL that is excluding any holding,sequencing vectors....In a very general summary,a diversion from KUL would cost 3 hours and about 3500kgs of fuel per 737. How much is $$? Let the accountant sort it out.

So,a good commander would always avoid a diversion.Action can be delaying a departure out of origin if the destination weather is bad as the time taken for the flight is less than the time for the storm to dissipate,or take a little more fuel just in case has to hold it out,and taking consideration that you would not be the only one need to divert.Like 17th Feb,I believe SZB weather would be on the edge as well and JHB might have reach it's maximum capacity,choice of alternate would have to be chosen care fully. For a flight from say East Malaysia is not easy to predict the weather.But for a return flight within Peninsular ie:KUL-PEN-KUL is not very hard to imagine what sort of weather one would be when return. A very general rule,CB with tops below 10'000ft post no harm in 3 hours,CB with top in excess of 28'000ft can turn into monster in 30mins,CB has anvil top or looks like a fat lady with a flaring skirt at the bottom has to be repected like a lady,ie: when she can no longer hold herself together,she'll piss all over town and spoil a pilot's(and ATCer) day.

ATC radar would be able to pick up significant weather, can't you?I've seen the Tower's radar in BKI that show brown boxes which I believe was weather.What woud be ATC guildline or procedure in vectoring a/c around weather?

[flightleader]

Another thing that I wish to see, Why is the airway like A457 from KUL to PEN has so many bents?Why wasn't it been design as a straight line? In Europe, we can sector control more frequent than KUL FIR, But the clearence is always direct to FIR boundaries where often enough is the airways itself.In other words,if the airways doesn't take you straight to the FIR boundary exit point,the ATC will clear you direct.

It would be nice the 1st call to 119.45/124.2 or 132.6 would be issue direct to PADLI or PK.Like wise going up north get 'DIRECT VPG'.

[DutyFree]

Hi Veloo
Appreciate very much to convey to your Controllers, particularly in East Malaysia, to slow down the speed of delivery, and to record ATIS at a dictation speed please. Perhaps deliver in ‘chunks’ with pauses in between for a suggestion.
The timing for R/T on ground can be better, eg Airways Clearance is available during our push back or engine start, and requesting for Aircraft Registration during landing roll before slow taxi speed, which becomes a disruption during our high workload time.
TKoose mentioned this previously and I feel the same

Thanks
DutyFree

[CPDLC est]

Slow down indeed. May I add another one on KK. How often u get clearance after landing like "EXPEDITE clearing B to hold at A" whilst the pilot is still on his brakes and full reverse. The word expedite has become a common place there. I believe no pilot would want to stay long on the runway especially knowing that there are other traffic around. rgds. Good work here Veloo

[veloo maniam]

Hi flightleader...sorry about the delay..had a problem with broadband...tks 4 the input about the diversion. ATC is unable to give u accurate wx details basically due to our radars do not give us the intensity of the actual wx. Unlike u chaps, we don't have colour codes on our radars.Pro active Controllers will provide info available from preceding acft.However I find that u guys are well aware. Yes those brown boxes that u saw in Kinablu is actually what we see over here. However they are no help to us with regards to what kind of clouds are out there. We have to depend on u guys to ask for the required deviations. Sometimes the ATCer approves immediately ur request for deviation provided there is no conflict whatsoever.There were times when acft from SIN enroute to BKK deviated as far as ADNUT b4 setting course to VKB thus jeopardising tfc descending into KUL from PK. In some cases the ATCer has to measure the heading that cud be best for him/her i.e why they keep asking whether u cud accept a heading contrary to ur request.( In the meantime some thinking n coordination takes place).so there u are my friend, we have to depend on u solely for wx deviation requirements.
Our procedures are strict in the sense that we must not disapprove any requests for wx. We have to approve it.We don't have colour codes on our radar.There is one wx terminal at the Approach. However it is placed right behind the Approach Controller whereby he/she can't even make use of it whatmore many don't even refer to it.It is about aprox 8ft away.So much so for wxSo much so for planning.So much so for wx.
Next:
Regarding the Airway structures.B4 KLIA was commissioned the Govt appointed a company by the name of AMS to design the airways. What we have today is whatever this company designed. The present airways were designed with Subang n Simpang in mind. At that time Simpang was supposed to be a City Airport with a lot of IFR departures (Executive jets).However till 2day Simpang is still IFR(I Follow Railroad). Now with Subang being too close 4 comfort, the bends were necessary. A dep from 32R will take u straight into acft descending for 32L arrivals from the North. I.e why the Agosa A SID. Even u have observed that the Agosa B will always be given a headin of 295 etc. If u were to follow the actual SID for Agosa B, u will come head on with the guy approaching 14L via KIKAL. why, u might even be able to read his/her name tag if u were to follow the actual Agosa B SID..i.e why my friend, all the bends. Be thankful that there are no roundabouts.These days I see a number of ATCers providing dct tracks whenever they are available. e.g dct Kendi, Sukat Gival, Tepus to Tamos , dct to PK or Padli etc. :ok:

[veloo maniam]

Yes I am aware of the ridiculous speech rate by our ATCers especially on the ATIS/ACD etc. There was a time I was at the Clearence Delivery when this particular ATCer delivered an ATcrnce very fast. I asked this guy why the speed when there is nobody else in the freq. His answer was "By now they all know what we are talking about". Basically my friend It's an attitude problem. Guess what, the pilot said "say again slowly". This guy was a MH pilot.One other thing u wud have observed. Clearences on request. The guy shoots out a clearance without even asking whether the pilot is ready to copy. They think that pilots are doing crossword puzzles while waiting for the clearance.
ATCers are trained not to ask any info or give instructions during finals where the cockpit workload is heavy UNLESS for air safety reasons ONLY.There is an existing instruction to ATCers not to ask for POB or Registration while acft is on finals. My friends, do me a favour. U have the right to call up the Tower or Centre Supervisor n report any shortcomings which may lead to an incident. I do not know the tfc situation in Kinabalu BUT I believe the Expedite thing can be given at first contact on the tower freq.I do this at Subang if there is a need. It helps both Pilot n Controller.Registration can always be obtained by ground Controller and that is common sense.I wonder why these guys go for familiarisation flights.:confused:

[veloo maniam]

Chew from DCA HQ is doing a tremendous job by highlighting good ATC work culture via the Safety Mgmnt System Bulletin.He goes as far to even put it on a CD. Many ATC shortcomings from within n outside Malaysia is highlighted in these Bulletins. Incidents n sollutions are always mentioned.They are there for all ATCers to improve. Looks like private ATC tuition on a one to one basis is seriuosly needed. Over to u Chew.

[flightleader]

Ah....I'm enlighterned. Veloo,I salute you for your open attitude in admitting ATCers' short comings and accepting criticism and inputs.Your initiative in starting this topic has bring good things in Malaysia Aviation.You are the man!:ok:

[CPDLC est]

This site was written by an ATCer in HKG in 1999 but nevertheless a good read for pilots to understand the controllers better. Rgds

http://neilt.org/aviation/atchk1999/atchk1999.html

[veloo maniam]

Tks Mate....Appreciate ur effort.
Flightleader..tks 4 the motivation.

[veloo maniam]

AVIATION HUMOUR

2006

On a Southwest flight (SW has no assigned seating, you just sit where you want) passengers were apparently having a hard time choosing, when a flight attendant announced, "People, people we're not picking out furniture here, find a seat and get in it!"

On a Continental Flight with a very "senior" flight attendant crew, the pilot said, "Ladies and gentlemen, we've reached cruising altitude and will be turning down the cabin lights. This is for your comfort and to enhance the appearance of your flight attendants."

On landing, the stewardess said, "Please be sure to take all of your belongings If you're going to leave anything, please make sure it's something we'd like to have."

"There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but there are only 4 ways out of this airplane"

"Thank you for flying Delta Business Express. We hope you enjoyed giving us the business as much as we enjoyed taking you for a ride."

As the plane landed and was coming to a stop at Ronald Reagan, a lone voice came over the loudspeaker: "Whoa, big fella. WHOA!"

After a particularly rough landing during thunderstorms in Memphis, a flight attendant on a Northwest flight announced, "Please take care when opening the overhead compartments because, after a landing like that, sure as hell everything has shifted."

From a Southwest Airlines employee: "Welcome aboard Southwest Flight 245 to Tampa To operate your seat belt, insert the metal tab into the buckle, and pull tight. It works just like every other seat belt; and, if you don't know how to operate one, you probably shouldn't be out in public unsupervised."

"In the event of a sudden loss of cabin pressure, masks will descend from the ceiling. Stop screaming, grab the mask, and pull it over your face. If you have a small child travelling with you, secure your mask before assisting with theirs. If you are travelling with more than one small child, pick your favourite."

Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but we'll try to have them fixed before we arrive. Thank you, and remember, nobody loves you, or your money, more than Southwest Airlines."

"Your seat cushions can be used for flotation; and, in the event of an emergency water landing, please paddle to shore and take them with our compliments."

"As you exit the plane, make sure to gather all of your belongings. Anything left behind will be distributed evenly among the flight attendants. Please do not leave children or spouses."

And from the pilot during his welcome message: "Delta Airlines is pleased to have some of the best flight attendants in the industry. Unfortunately, none of them are on this flight!"

Heard on Southwest Airlines just after a very hard landing in Salt Lake City: The flight attendant came on the intercom and said, "That was quite a bump, and I know what y'all are thinking. I'm here to tell you it wasn't the airline's fault, it wasn't the pilot's fault, it wasn't the flight attendant's fault, it was the asphalt."

Overheard on an American Airlines flight into Amarillo,Texas, on a particularly windy and bumpy day: During the final approach, the Captain was really having to fight it. After an extremely hard landing, the Flight Attendant said, "Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to Amarillo. Please remain in your seats with your seat belts fastened while the Captain taxis what's left of our airplane to the gate!"

Another flight attendant's comment on a less than perfect landing: "We ask you to please remain seated as Captain Kangaroo bounces us to the terminal."

An airline pilot wrote that on this particular flight he had hammered his ship into the runway really hard. The airline had a policy which required the first officer to stand at the door while the passengers exited, smile, and give them a "Thanks for flying our airline." He said that, in light of his bad landing, he had a hard time looking the passengers in the eye, thinking that someone would have a smart comment. Finally everyone had gotten off except for a little old lady walking with a cane. She said, "Sir do you mind if I ask you a question?" "Why, no, Ma'am," said the pilot. What is it?" The little old lady said, "Did we land, or were we shot down?"

After a real crusher of a landing in Phoenix, the attendant came on with, "Ladies and Gentlemen, please remain in your seats until Capt. Crash and the Crew have brought the aircraft to a screeching halt against the gate and, once the tire smoke has cleared and the warning bells are silenced, we'll open the door and you can pick your way through the wreckage to the terminal."

Part of a flight attendant's arrival announcement: "We'd like to thank you folks for flying with us today. And, the next time you get the insane urge to go blasting through the skies in a pressurized metal tube, we hope you'll think of US Airways."

Heard on a Southwest Airline flight. "Ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to smoke, the smoking section on this airplane is on the wing and if you can light 'em, you can smoke 'em."

A plane was taking off from Kennedy Airport. After it reached a comfortable cruising altitude, the captain made an announcement over the intercom, "Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Welcome to Flight Number 293, non-stop from New York to Los Angeles. The weather ahead is good and, therefore, we should have a smooth and uneventful flight. Now sit back and relax. OH, MY GOD!" ----- Silence followed, and after a few minutes, the captain came back on the intercom and said, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I am so sorry if I scared you earlier. While I was talking to you, the flight attendant accidentally spilled a cup of hot coffee in my lap. You should see the front of my pants!" A passenger in Coach yelled, "That's nothing. You should see the back of mine!"

[veloo maniam]

Here is the aritcile from Newsday, a Long Island news paper.
Long Island
Glitch delays flights
FAA computer software problem disrupts arrivals and departures at New York-area airports
BY JOSEPH MALLIA
STAFF WRITER
March 8, 2006
Arrivals and departures at New York-area airports were delayed by up to two hours for most of the day yesterday, after the Federal Aviation Administration's regional computer system in Ronkonkoma malfunctioned, an FAA spokesman said.
The system started rebooting - basically shutting itself down and restarting - again and again, he said.
The delays affected all flights to and from Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark airports.
At 2:15 p.m. the computer system, located at Long Island MacArthur Airport in Ronkonkoma, started rebooting uncontrollably, Peters said. The FAA air traffic controllers halted all aircraft departures in the region for the next 23 minutes until a backup computer system went into service at 2:38 p.m., Peters said. That backup system's limited capabilities, however, led to continual delays through the afternoon and evening.
"We have not yet pinned down why the software problem occurred," Peters said. He said the FAA software, known as the Host Computer System, has had similar problems in the past.
For much of the afternoon and evening the FAA increased the distance between aircraft from the standard 5 miles to 15 miles. New York-bound flights from airports as far away as Philadelphia, Boston and Indianapolis were delayed.
The FAA's Ronkonkoma operation, known as New York Center, is expected to be operating normally by today, Peters said. Technicians overnight were to try to trace the source of the problems. The software that malfunctioned has been in use for several years, he said.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Flyers...wud like to know which airfields do u consider as a high risk category(within Malaysia only) as far as landings in bad weather and your reason for such an opinion. I wud like to compile such info and pass it to the Tower guys so that a better situational awareness environment will be prevalent in bad wx.Wud appreciate your suggestions.An eg wud be one that I have heard from a pilot. Qoute "Why is there no SPECI available when the weather has deteriorated since the METAR was transmitted" Unqoute.:ok:

[jetrat]

halo halo

very quiet lately. let's see,

kch: slippery surface, single ils therefore reluctance in 07 usage, tailwind landings common, heavy rains every other day,(unfortunately can't do much bout that), parallel taxiways that don't go all the way to the end. and another major threat i think is the vectoring/vor.dme 25 procedure, during ils outage, due to the min. vec. alt. against the min. faf alt. i remember bringing this up personally to our co. safety dept, then three days later there was the A310 incident.

[flightleader]

Ipoh is a no no for me if weather is bad.MAB had patched up the runway recently.The runway become uneven and collect water. This patches of slippery portion prohibits the antiskid to work properly.This mean landing in a short,narrow,uneven,slippery runway with virtually no brakes and a missed approach procedure like a maze.No way for 20+ pax!

[veloo maniam]

Halo Jetrat..quiet? yes but not sleeping. looking into other forums the world over and learning to improve self and other ATCers who want to improve. U mentioned that u personally brought up the KCH RWY conditions to your Safety Dept. What exactly happens after that? A bit curious...was there any follow up with the relevant authorities..like DCA or MAB? Were these matters discussed to prevent further incidents? Why are such issues not brought to the attention of operational ATCers? Isn't this all part of situation awareness? Just imagine a foreigner landing for the 1st time at such airports during bad weather and he/she doesn't even know the prevailing conditions of the runway. All the tower controller would mention is XXX cleared to land caution RWY surface is wet.The next thing we see is someones nose wheel is on the grass.Blame it all on the pilot.So whatever happened to prevention is better than cure? Isn't there something called "a contributing factor?" Isn't this what CRM is all about? Or is CRM only limited to within the cockpit? To me, I am part and parcel of every safe landing. I have to ensure that every aircraft under my control reaches the parking bay safely. This is my prayer. It works BOTHWAYS man. Let's speed up a bit in getting these thorny issues settled quickly. Only two airports so far?:ok:

[The Rage]

Hello Boy's,

Well it has been a little quiet here! Let me see how i may contribute to this airfeild thing.
KUL- No real major probs
PEN- Rwy 22 app has a very high mda and does get me going esp when there's wx arounnd.
JHB- center line lights will help
KUA- Get the air force guys to calibrate the wind reading, direction is fine but always under reading by 10kts, ive personally told them, but nothing done yet.
KBR- always exciting, now with the ILS coming on soon might help.
TGG- What can i say, app to rwy 22 at night is like landing on to a carrier at night, im sure the US navy would be proud of us here, (black hole effect)
AOR- rwy extensions have helped.
IPH- Nothing bigger than a F-50 should go in, period!
LGK- Rwy 03 get quite windy on the backside.
KCH- jetrat hit the the nail with that one
SBW- Waiting for the full rwy, but controlling a/c procedurally dosent help
BTU- one of the better airfeilds around
MYY- Center line lights
LBU- The POW's who built it , made it hard for us to land as well, always a cross wind.
BKI- Time to get a new parralel taxiway all the way to the end.
SDK- very slippery when wet
TWU- better than the last twu.

But generally almost all airfeilds need proper lighting's. Center line lights help a great deal at night in rain.

So when's the next teh tarik thing?

[jetrat]

velloo....

sorry,...i really can't tell you what was done with the info then, years ago. however i know that when i mentioned it verbally to the boss then, it was not new, as that was actually after an incident that happened before. and, i was informed that they had already informed "dunno who" about it, etc.

but, nothing happened....although the 310 incident got the ils back immediately. one wonders. anyway all this is history. however, the risks are just as high now as it used to be then, when the ils is off. it's the problem of the min. vectoring altitude against the fif height difference. and all the other stuff put together. it's just that too many of the ingredients would be available for that perfect recipe for disaster.

and somehow, kch seems to be the perfect "oven" for it. the only silver lining to it, is that the runway extension ongoing, once completed, should, take one of the "ingredients" way,.....:ok:

ah, please,another ILS on the other side for our 3rd/4th? busy strip of tar would definitely help us all.

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers..tks 4 the inputs. will have a chat with the relevant guys n see how these thorny issues can be solved. I always wondered why our ILS's goes off in bad wx.like the newly installed one at SZB. It was OFF almost a month awaiting spare parts.Now its ok.Mind u it's brand new.

[veloo maniam]

How much of fuel is dumped? Last night MH16 KUL-EHAM B744 was unable to retract her landing gears after t/off. Had to dump fuel over port klang b4 making an approach. Observed fuel dumping was in the region of about 50 mins. what must be the weight be for a safe landing. Need answers both in kg and time (fuel remaining). Why is that there is no need for ground assistance? Is it considered an emergency or not? tks 4 der answers.

[The Rage]

Cant tell u much abaout the triple. But a 747-400 on max t/o out of kl to europe usually about 394.5tons max t/o wt. If we had to come back, then max landing would be 285tons so u looking at 110tons of fuel to be dumped. Cant remember how long it would take but i think it would be close to an hour.
If the pilot deems it not to be serious then no need for assistance, in this case he prob had to come back but could only land after dumping fuel so that he could land within the stipulated wt which would be the authorised max landing wt.

Got a question, any chance u guys could get the number of track miles i would req when flying into sin from atc singapore? Coz we usually start our descent in kul FIR but when trasfered to sin we find ourselves very low due to their radar vectoring.

[Brianigham]

Hi Veloomaniam.

Long time....sorry I haven't had much to contribute lately.

Anyway teh last question would best be answered by a 744 rated.....or used to be rated guy....for specifics.

Generally fuel dumping is an exercise to reduce your existing aircraft weight to a figure that is below the maximum landing weight.

The weight of a wide body on long haul will nearly always be above the max landing weight at takeoff. We of course plan to burn this fuel enroute to reach the destination with a landing weight below the max weight.

In the case of a " landing gear will not retract" situation, the flight will not be able to continue to the destination because the extra drag produced by these dangling dunlops will increase the fuel flow and cause you to run dry by Mumbai.....hmmmn. me thinks.....!

Therefore a return to KUL would be the best option.

That by itself poses another challenge:

Because of all the fuel you have on board.......you are now too heavy to land without posibily causing structural stress to the plane and other limits.

Solution: get lighter!.....dump either fuel or the customer!

If they opt for dumping fuel then there is a "fuel jettison" procedure. Think the rates differ from a/c to a/c.

There are certain areas disignated and certain heights to adhere to and be above for this ops.

This by itself can be done when you have the luxury of time, ie the "situation" with the flight does not warrant an immediate landing regardless the weight.

In the case of a landing gear stuck down..... thats good ....cause thats where I want it to be for a normal landing.....therefore...no emergency landing.....or assist required.

cont....guys.

[jetrat]

rage,

what i figured out which used to work pretty well when we used to operate all of the sin flights then, is a little difficult to describe. let's see if i can try draw this in your mind. take the CF fix, create a 30 degree and 5nm point, then that point, another thirty degrees off and 5nms, then another one.( thats for runway02). however, this planning allows them to reduce your track miles quite a bit, as we're tracking more less at a ninety degrees angle towards the runway track.

remind me to draw it the next time, it's quite interesting. then there's the part that they'll keep you at seven thousand feet min.till you past south of sj. if a particular danger area is active. can't say which one though. so, when i planned the fmc the way i described earlier, i found that it actually used to work out very well, but then the atc guys would then start asking me when i'd start my descent since it's so much later than the majority of traffic. what i used to do then, was to offer that info in advance.

tried the same thing with runway 20, but somehow i think it wasn't as consistent as 02? then again i have to say this is all NON confirmed stuff. let 's see if velloo can ask his compadre's what the track is like, so that we can plan for that nice constant descent at idle thrust. otherwise, i'll try call a friend at sq and see if he knows. ah, but all this was when only samko and nylon was used....

[veloo maniam]

Still a bit hazy on the fuel dumping procedures. Wud appreciate time reqd for fuel dumping for each type of acft. The reason is for ATC to know how long the fuel dumping will take place. The duration of fuel dumping is not mentioned unless asked but then again the crew is too busy attending to other urgent needs. At least we can plan the sequence. As far as ATC is concerned, we treat situations like fuel dumping as a possibility that might lead to an emergency. Thus the apprehension on the part of the ATCer. That's why they keep asking Q's like 'do u need any assistance' etc. Have to alert the Airport Fire Rescue Services and such. Tks in advance 4 der inputs from the various type rated guys.Finally how is fuel dumping done.

As for track miles avbl into Changi, we are able to give u up to SJ. We can do that by measuring the track miles avbl to SJ in the case of R02. Asking our counterparts at Changi can be a bit annoying as they too are busy. They may not even entertain us on such requests. All they will say is ,put the acft over to us. I hope the track miles to SJ will be helpful as R02 seems to be the most useable rwy these days.

As for risky runways, did talk to my good friend from airport stds at DCA n this is what I gathered. Might be helpful. If it isn't sorry about it.

PEN- the mda has been rectified.It was an error.it seems the mda was right over the rwy.
Centre line lights are not required for rwys which are CAT 1. This is an ICAO recommendation.
TGG- Have u guys tried asking the tower controllers to reduce the intensity? If u have n is still bright , let me know again.
IPH-nothing bigger than a F50. Time to talk to the producers of "Honey I shrunk the kids" or maybe it's a skills test for the 737s. US Navy will be proud to employ u.
SBW- Is it Sibu? If it is then a hill at the end of the rwy has to be removed which the builders or contractors haven't done yet.
KUA- I am working 2moro on 132.6. I will talk to the SATCO about the S/Wind readings.
As for the other airports, the message has been put across. Only time will answer.

Brianigham...dangling dunlops will increase the fuel flow and cause u to run dry by mumbai...Hmmm..look on the bright side brother...at least u can say hello to Aiswariya Rai:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers, just curious. how exactly does the FMS work? A couple of days ago I got irritated with a 737 who had just departed R32. Apparantly he was given a direct track to Sukat climb F300. by the Approach Controller. The Approach Controller took the easy way out by issuing a dct track not realising there is a reciprocal descending to F150 from the north.The Approach Controller will only see the tfc somewhere around DAKUS. As such on 1st ctc with 132.8 I instructed the acft to turn to AGOSA. However twice the pilot kept saying he's been given a dct track to SKT F300. Discussed this problem with another colleague who told me that the moment a direct track is given to a waypoint, the pilots wud select that particular waypoint, in this case SUKAT instead of AGOSA, thus deleting the initial waypoint AGOSA automatically from the FMS. I was told that the pilots have to manually select AGOSA in this case and that this takes time. I was told a heading wud be better to AGOSA. What say u. Is this true? Is this the reason even the pilots sound irritated? Pse advise. Are there any links whereby I can read up on the FMS so that I can properly educate all concerned, including myself.

[The Rage]

It does not take more than 3-5 sec's to select Agosa. Tell him due traffic, finnish!

Jetrat, would def like to hear the explaination that u have, well did sin over the last couple of days and the moment we contact them they put u on to a hdg of 150 and des FL150. And they take u all the way down to the south. I fig they do this coz its outside their 40nm 250kt speed zone, therefore u dont slow down till much later and only passing 10000'.

[jetrat]

rage,

yes i noticed that too on the last couple of times i operated. the thought came to my mind then too, but i then figured it didn't make sense, cos all they need to tell you is that "speed restriction not in force" or something to that effect. so, i figure it's something else. obviously they do want you to make extra track miles. dunno? try shout out to some sin approach radar guys here at pprune. that'll clear the air.......

i'm guessing it's probably to separate 2 or three traffic in the vicinity all heading towards the south. prob the 1st will be given a heading of 110, the 2nd, 130 and then there's you on 150 or something. that's my wild guess.......

velloo,

it's true, that sukat would have disappeared from the page, and yes, it'd have to be manually entered, and the rest......however, i believe the reason they got irritated was not due to the manual typing of AGOSA, but more like it gave them the impression that the 2 controllers did not coordinate. i personnally have experienced these situations, and i'd be grumbling and mumbling too......:O . and only now do i get the picture of why this scenario happens.

i would therefore suggest that in this case, you initiate the clearance with the words "due traffic".
it would avoid any confusion or doubts, and we would not question the clearance, and immediate action would be taken to turn towards agosa, unless of course there's weather, then i'd say so and wait for an alternative.
yes, i do agree, that in this particular eg. a heading clearance would be better, since it would further remove any doubts about the controllers actions.

[veloo maniam]

Yes Jetrat..it's bcos no coordination was effected. Mind u during peak hour, tfc gets airborne every 1.5 to 2 mins. Not only the Approach guy has to sort out the deps but also the arrivals. U wud agree that tfc has increased. KLIA opened in July 1998. By July 1999 the total movement was around 64,123 movements. Piece of cake at that time with all the latest and smooth functioning equippment. Middle of 2004 the tfc movement was 165,115 movements. Now on a busy day KLIA alone is handling about 500 movements on the average. The approach controller will only climb acft to F140. Anything higher wud require him/her to coordinate with Sector Controllers. This is when the short cut is done. No time to request for a higher or dct track. He may have tried calling the Sector Controller but the Sector Controller wud himself be busy to answer the direct line with Approach. MHxxx identified dct SKT climb F140 and then he's talking to someone else. With poor reception being the norm these days, one has to transmit no less than 3 times to get a message across. Mind u during the last two shifts I was totally unable to read acft north of VPG. TSE had to call me almost 7 times at KARMI. I can read him BUT he can't read me. Speedbird cud only contact 132.8 at Gunip when actually the Transfer of Communication point is at VAMPI. See, this is all adding to more coordination and transmission these days. With 165K movements (not including the overflts into n out of SIN) BP is always on a higher beat. There is a saying "Good Controllers will just fade away" BUT looks like we have to amend that now. "Good Controllers will just fade away b4 retirement age". We are running short of good radar controllers. Replacement is slow.We are actually not short of controllers.We are full of short controllers. What we actually lack is good radar rated guys with a good command of English.
Pilots will ask for a secondary freq. The only one we can provide is 125.1. For this freq the site is at SZB. Therefore it's range is limited. U can't use this to speak to acft north of VPG, which has crucial joining airways where A464/R325/P628 converge.These days we have to relay ATC clearances thru other aircraft. Though not often but is is vital for us. There was a day where a colleage was using 132.8 and 125.1 at the same time. Told him it was extreamely dangerous. Two acft will be transmitting at the same time. U won't know who is calling u. We had to put a stop to that. So there u are my friend, if u are grumbling about why those dudes down there did not coordinate, it's simply bcos one just didn't answer the line. However we cud still type in a dct SKT label. The Sector Controller wud know what the acft is going to do but it may still be not enough for std separation. Hence "track for AGOSA" comes in.
3-5secs to initiate AGOSA. Wow that's much faster than our dct lines being answered.:ok:

[flightleader]

If I may add to the direct track topic.

If the a/c is engaged with autopilot couple with the FMS,it would take a few more seconds for the autopilot to initiate a track change even it takes only 3~5 secs for the pilot to type A-G-O-S-A into the FMS.(ie: the FMS has to calculate the pilot's input,generate a track,then instruct the autopilot to fly that track)Thus,there will be a short moment that the pilot have to wait and see if the autopilot is gonna do what the FMS says after the input which non of the pilot would enjoy that few secs of 'wait and hope it work'. Whereas if a heading a issue together with a prefix 'DUE TRAFFIC', the pilot can immediately dial the heading and the autopilot can turn the a/c faster. Therefore,most pilots prefer heading.

As for SIN, SIN ATC often give a heading after ARAMA,typically 120 or more for 40 to 50nm then turn towards the centerline.Subject to traffic, ATC may give you more track miles( more room) for you to lose height.So, the higher you are,the longer you fly.If you are low enough,ATC often turn you in earlier.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Rage, checked with the KUA Controller regarding s/wind reports. I was told that they now have the anemometer indicators ABM PAPI on either side of the rwy i.e r18 n r36. Should be ok now. When u go in next c if there is any change in the s/wind reports. Gudday.

[veloo maniam]

I find it very disturbing when pilots are still requesting Rwy in use from SIN ATCers even though they are aprox 150-200nm EAST of VKL. This morning the SIN ATCer told me that he has to answer frequent requests by pilots coming in from the EAST requesting for the RWY and STAR in use for KLIA. Why should this be so.If pilots can pick up the SZB ATIS clearly at these distances, KLIA transmissions should be better as they have all the best equipment. If u are one experiencing such a problem, kindly let us know. Definitely something must be wrong somewhere. May I have some inputs pls. KAL n FDX were two examples this morning(2200 utc). Is this problem only experienced from those inbound from the EAST or is it all over?:

[Fair.Pilot]

Coming in from the EAST, eg on FL350 0r FL 310 we won't receive the KLIA ATIS until approx. 100nm to Top of Descent. Most airlines endeavour to complete their approach briefing by then (100nm to TOD) especially if they do not fly regularly to foreign airfield.
More so on training flight, they want to get all the info asap....

Solution: Have a radio repeater station somewhere near PK... 132.6 will be clearer too.....

[jetrat]

velloo,

can't believe we didn't bring this up the last time, but the klia atis range from the east, has from day one been FAR WORSE than the szb atis range. from day one, the assumption we had to make was that it was somehow affected by the geographical location of kul, since we knew that it's equipment was far superior to szb.

but it definitely is true that the transmissions are only picked up far too late or close. in fact, i know for sure a lot mh guys resorted to, listening out on 132.6, hoping to catch some other guy reading back their star clearance. that's after we gave up on requesting it from sin atc. but i totally agree, that foreign flights would end up having to ask sin ,if proper planning was to be achieved before their descent.

:ugh: yes, i totally think something should be done about this, more so since it's such a basic thing....


by the way, how does someone go about the process of joining atc in malaysia, present times?

[veloo maniam]

Yep Jetrat we did discuss this at the teh tarik session but I am surprised that this particular problem still exists. There are two transmitters(TX) on the east coast. One is at Bukit Bakar in Kelantan and the other is at Bt.Pelindong somewhere near Kuantan or so(not very sure of it's exact location but it is somewhere there). I am surprised at the poor reception on 132.6 as Bt.Pelindung has the capabilities to tx 132.6 at the moment.
Coming back to KUL ATIS. The TX for 126.45(KUL ATIS) is based on top of the Apron Tower near the Satellite Buildings at KLIA. Yes the smaller tower near LCCT. Perhaps this cud be the reason for the limited range.
For SZB the TX for 127.6 is at the Subang Air Traffic Control premises itself. But it is technical jargon for me as far as how the freqs are pushed out to u guys over the South China Sea. If 127.6 can be recieved over 200nm from SZB then something can n must be done for 126.45 to be pushed out to over the same region. Maybe , just maybe the engineers shud transfer the KUL ATIS TX to the main tower. That may help u guys.
About putting up new repeaters will require new working papers and new budget.U guys are too familiar will all this paperwork jargon.Period
Joining ATC will require one to go thru Jabatan Perkhidmatan Awam's conditions.
U need to have an approved diploma or a degree from any Govt approved institute. Then one has to wait for the advertisments which normally appears in the local newspapers particularly the Malay editions. Then one has to go for an aptitude test. This is where the majority of them fail. Many are not even aware of such tests. If everything goes well, one can be selected and have to go thru 66 weeks of training at the DCA Kolej. Even here some quit as they cannot adapt to the ATC pressures. They recently employed some and are currently going thru the mill. For further details PM me.:ok:

[Little Miss]

Sorry , I know this isn t the place for this but I wanted all the ATC at KLIA to read it.

I m the british female pilot with Air Asia, I m leaving AA, on the 7th is my last day and I just want to say to you all thanks for everything and thanks for being friendly and helpful and making me laugh.

Its been great working for Air Asia and I hope I might fly this way one day again.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread.

Bye

[veloo maniam]

All I cud say is goodday missy..hope u enjoyed your life here in Malaysia..wherever u are going..all the best from KUL ATC.:ok:

[Fair.Pilot]

Miss M******* all the best, but really......please do yourself a favour:
don't come back to LCC again!
Hope you'll fly with mainstream airlines!

[veloo maniam]

Of late I have been getting queries from a no. of dreamers who want to be pilots. Someone said that u can know a person by the type of questions they ask rather than the type of answers one gives. Some are genuine and some are not. If u know someone who is really really genuine and wud want to take up flying as a career and find it hard to get a place in a local flying school, pls contact me. I may be able to lead or link u to your ultimate dream of becoming a pilot.No promises but I will try my best. the only qualification needed here is a passion for flying.

[flightleader]

How the ATC side of the anticipation on the rwy closure in KUL next month?

[veloo maniam]

Hi all..from what I have gathered the 2nd rwy which is 32L/14R will be closed in the region of three to four months for strengthening purposes. This is in view of the arrival of the A380 into KLIA. After this, 32R/14L will also be closed but the duration may not be like the 2nd RWY.
ATC anticipates congestion not only at KLIA but also in the arrivals.There is definitely enroute holdings since only ONE Rwy is going to be used.
Meetings are on going and decisions will be made known.
These are going to be trying moments and we need to sit down and talk about coming up with a win-win situation for all. Can we have another teh-tarik session to see what we all can do to improve this forthcoming situation. Maybe an awareness programme can be birthed out of this sessions.
May I have some inputs. It's going to be tough on all, especially the airlines as they have all prepared and sent out their summer schedules.Guys, u arrange the date as we ATCers can adapt to it more easily.

[veloo maniam]

Does AA carry out it's own cadet eng programme? If it does who can I contact to find out how to get someone to join in. tks 4 der replies.:ok:

[The Rage]

Hello Love! All the best for u.

[veloo maniam]

Just wondering...if the 2nd rwy is going to be closed, wud it b possible to use half(or slightly more) of the rwy for deps to avoid congestion. This suggestion has been put 4ward in a recent meeting. What say u flyers? Rwy length available will b in the region of 2400-2500M.Given a scenario of a full load and max wt. what kind of length are u guys expecting.I do understand this will be an ideal situation for B737 and below.:ok:

[Brianigham]

Thats a very personal question Veloo;)
I personally will not use intersections for takeoff unless it, in my own weightage it will be of benefit. Of course I must be able to do it by the books as well.
I think the current practice of offering it and letting the pilot decide would be most prudent.
Some of the other factors I consider:
Weather
How long the last transit was. ( brakes ) "this is me personally la!"
following a heavy?
Aircraft condition and serviceability.

[jetrat]

hi all...

can't remember exact length of a8 for 32l, however i can tell you that a8 is not at all restrictive. therefore, yes can if the length is not less then that of a8. that's for 32L.but advance notification neccessary for the paperwork to get to the pilots.....;)

sorry...forgot to add that this of course only apllies to b737-400.

[flightleader]

Using a portion of the runway would be great to ease the traffic esp 737 ops. However,it requires commitment from all parties from MAB,pilots,ATC,contrators....
Reason being the work would shift from one end to the other.Distribution of information has to be very dynamic.MAB has to provide appropriate holding point/intersection,pilots to ensure if it is acceptable and no hazzard to workers on the ground,ATC to sequence traffic flow and most importantly contractor to understand the concept of sterility at the movement area. IMO,with the present style of communication between these parties, this idea poses more danger than the benefits.After all,the losers in this are the airlines,why would MAB and the contractor care?

MAS wouldn't receive its A380 til 2008,why is MAB in such a hurry to carry out the runway upgrade but not other work? Whose A380 gonna use the runway and not the terminal? I reckon Malaysian will see lots of A380 take off/landing at KLIA before MAS takes its first aircraft.:hmm:

[veloo maniam]

Hi Flightleader n all else....Nothing concrete has been decided with regards to the upgrading works for KUL Rwy up till now. News is that the anticipated arrival is not expected until the end of the 1st quarter of 2007(Probably awaiting SIA's A380). As more info pours in, I will flood the website.:ok:
On another note, there was an incident early April whereby a MH A330 went thru the level of a Cathay. Both were inbound from Taxul. MH requested for descent clearence from FL400. Controller instructed acft to descend to FL390 when ready. Acft descended to FL290. Cathay was at FL380. Apparantly pilot readback FL290 which the ATCer did not catch. What I would like to know is how could an acft descend to FL290 when he is aware that there is another acft at FL380 below him and is close by(less than 10NM). How could 2 pilots and one ATCer allow this to happen? I am not blaming anyone here but I am looking into the possibility of an instruction that has been misinterpreted i.e FL390 and FL290.Frequency 132.6 was busy at that moment.Could it have been that a pilot would have believed that it has to be FL290(why would the ATCer want to descend me just a thousand feet). How did the cockpit crew decided upon this decision.As an OJT coach, I am finding ways where such recurrences be avoided by both ATC n Cockpit crew. Inputs are most appreciated.

[CI54]

Hello,

Firstly, with regards to the runway shortening in KLIA, what I can say is this.. We need some info to get us going.

We need to know where the work is going to be done, the height of obstructions and work equipment, their height and where are they located from the point of takeoff. Once we get all this information, we will pass them over to the performance engineer and he/she will put all this info into a software database that in return will do the maths and will come up with our maximum brake release weights and takeoff speed calculation at different temperature and wind component (headwind/ tailwind). The point is the sooner we can get this information, the better it is for all of us because then it would be a lot easier to formulate solutions.

After looking at all this, then we will be able to give you some info as to which type of aircraft will be able to operate on that runway at what kind of weights. For instance, 2500m of runway is approximately Kuching. Jumbo does operate into Kuching but the takeoff weight is definitely limited due to obvious reasons.

One thing that you should be aware is that for performance calculation, all takeoff is based on one engine failure. Therefore, the weights are quite restrictive. Another thing is for antiskid inoperative procedure, the landing weight is very restrictive for 2500m runway in wet conditions and also in tailwind conditions. So, I hope this little insight will be helpfull.

Secondly, that teh tarik session will be really helpfull. I suggest we do it on a weekend. That way, I can try and get some of the management pilot to join the discussion, if they are free....

Regards...

[veloo maniam]

Hi CI54...wow ...so much anticipated preparation on your side. Nevertheless I will endeavour to get info passed to u guys asa it is available. Probably MAB is working out things with the contractors..not very sure but I guess so. I too have to get my HQ ATCers to be available for the teh tarik session. Need at least a few days notification. Same venue at Kayu SS2 is fine with us. Let us know early. Roughly 5 of us will be there (from KLIA,Approach.Hq n Sector Control).:ok:

[Marcellus Wallace]

Hello Gentlemen,

No longer fly much in the region but do visit from time to time.

Mr. Veloo - with regard the level bust by the MH airplane, I guess the RT reception which is poor has something to do with it. Also worth investigating if the pilots had their headsets on or were they listening out on speakers.

For ATC - maybe an added phrase at the end/beginning of the clearance if the airwaves were not too congested - which I guess it was in this case:

"Malaysian xxx -traffic for your descent is a Cathay xxx maintaining FL380 -10nm at your 11 o'clock - descend initially FL390"

or

"Malaysian xxx - due traffic descend initially FL390"

May clue the guys in/raise their situational awareness. Hopefully the guys were looking at their TCAS display as well and keeping a good listening watch being aware of the surrounding traffic.

Always easier said from the backseat.

[veloo maniam]

Hello Marcellus W. Tq much 4 your input.
132.6 is a sector whereby transmissions are made more than the other 3 sectors. This sector also encompasses a very short airway of aprox 120nm from PK/Padli//taxul. Controllers have to vector and give the STARs etc within a short period of time. Not only does he/she has to talk to those around the three positions mentioned but also to traffic at VKB and IGARI(This position is outside radar coverage). Not forgetting those tfc that is on climb from SIN towards VKB. These days we also have to monitor the traffic inbound to SIN from the North inorder to ensure they cross PK at FL330, a requirement by SIN ATCC. With this in mind, The ATCers at 132.6 always tend to speak fast to get the message across. These days pilots too do not listen out b4 pressing their mikes. Hence a garbled message down at the ATCC leading to time being lost in repetitions. Pilots are also waiting to get their descent clearance quickly. With so much of transmissions(some can be long..MHxxx identified cleared to Kidot3A arr runway 14L Pibos A trans). This is all ok with the local pilots. Someone from the US comes along and clearance has to be repeated. So it is with pilots from mainland China and Phillipines etc. So we have to go slow here.This is the reason why the 132.6 Controllers shy away from giving long transmissions UNLESS if it is an absolute necessity.
Back to your advice..I totally agree and accept it. However..I have this thing in my mind. These two particular traffic has been flying along the same route for quite awhile. They have both on their TCAS. I am also sure the distances are also available to each other. Hence the absence of traffic info.
ATC will have no knowledge of the reception status inside the cockpit unless told so. What bothers me is whether the TCAS alerts the aircraft that is going through the level of the other, in this case the MH acft. Yes we surely have learnt something from this incident, an incident that could have been prevented in the first place if only either one of the parties were alert.Unlike pilots, ATCers in KUL are not exposed to studies in CRM and Human Factors in Aviation Incident and Accidents.The only knowledge one gets is thru aviation magazines and other related articles which is read by the interested ATCer.No organised seminars or workshops for the guys in the Subang ATCC. Maybe the Airlines in this region can organise one or at least invite ATCers to one. I'll be more than willing to assist anyone in this matter.:ok:

[CI54]

Hello,

There is a common misconception that all TCAS system is the same. On some aircrafts, traffic information is not depicted in the display. On some others, in case of RA, the climb or descent maneuvre is carried out based only on information given in the VSI. All these are perfectly legal and the equipment is certified for use..

From the grapevine, the incident was between a A330 and the B777. If anyone is willing to verify this, the B777 actually made an evasive maneuvre by changing their heading to keep away from the traffic that was descending from the back. So, because of that, there could have been a possibility that RA was not triggered in both aircraft. If the other aircraft is not equipped with TCAS equipment that shows traffic info in their display, they wouldn't have known where the traffic is under this circumstances.

Off course finger pointing is the easiest way out. Otherwise, we should ask these few questions before we actually point to anyone for blame:
1) Why did both pilots in the aircraft that busted the level understood the clearance wrongly?
2) Why was this mistake not spotted by the ATC?
3) Why did the B777 pilot not question the readback if he knows there could be a potential conflict?

Off course under this circumstance, we would surmise that everyone would have behaved responsibly and professionally. No one would have wanted to knowingly break the rule. However, the fact remains; Even with the best of equipments, experience and professionalism, an accident could have happened on that fated day...

It would seem, without blaming anyone, with the problems we are having on 132.6, if nothing is done to solve this issue, there is bound to be another incident in the near future. If nothing is done even after that, we are staring at an accident waiting to happen. Maybe we should look at what are the 'low hanging fruits' that could easily be plucked to solve this issue. If a statistical study is done as to what are the mistakes made on 132.6 on a daily basis, we can easily identify the problems associated with this issue and what are the majority of the problems...

Off course someone need to do the statistical study first la...

Regards..

[veloo maniam]

Tq CI54..I , like most other ATCers in Subang are under the impression that all modern jets' TCAS gives both TA and RA. This info now gives me a better insight into TCAS operating methods. U have raised good points. There already exists a Safety Management System in DCA which undertakes to look into all this incidents. The only problem is that it takes about two months to complete an inquiry out of which recommendations follow. By this time more incidents take place. Perhaps we at the Subang ATCC need to seriously look into the low hanging fruits that need to be plucked soon. Even this morning I had to request the help of another MH to relay an instruction to a C130 at ADNUT cruising at FL260. Have to further discuss this matter with SMS guys.Thanks once again...oh yeah finger pointing is defintely out of the question.

[flightleader]

Would someone from the inside enlightern me this:

When the ATIS of an airport say 'distant rain', what sort of distance are we talking about? Many times such observation is actually some 30 to 40nm from the airport which doesn't affect the flight in at all.Isn't terminal wather observation limited to 10nm which fits the defination of 'vicinity' of the airfield?

FL

[Marcellus Wallace]

VC - In the vicinity - within 8 km but not at the aerodrome.

Most modern jets - certainly the 2 that were involved would display the TA and RA plus other traffic and also traffic between +/- 2700 feet and +/-9900 feet of the airplane - if the "ABOVE/BELOW" switch is installed - otherwise it will still display +/- 2700 feet for most basic displays.

Most if not all will have a TA ONLY or TA/RA switch as well. When in TA ONLY - then other airplanes will maneuver as the TCAS is clever enough to send a signal to the other airplane that it is in "passive mode". Generally practised when an airplane suffers and engine failure or has an abnormal which affects performance e.g. gear down.

Have not flown non-glass types but am guessing TCAS on non-glass types have separate display much like a weather radar for the traffic information and a "VSI" like type of display for the maneuvers with red/green bands. On the EFIS equipped airplanes obviously these displays are integrated.

I agree totally that the quality of the RT on 132.60 is much to be desired. Plus the numerous airways that criss-cross make it a hazardous sector.

"1000 feet ROC/ROD" as recommended by Eurocontrol is definitely worth practising 1000 feet before any assigned level off. Especially so because ACASII software will command maneuvers which require the minimum change in vertical profile in encounters. i.e. Climbing airplane will be given climb,crossing climb, descending aircraft will be given descend,crossing descend RA's in co-ordination.

Not teaching anyone how to "suck eggs".

Mainly for Mr. Veloo's benefit and that of his colleagues. I believe a seminar on TCAS/ACASII was organised some years back where one of the MH FM's gave a briefing to ATC. If you could get hold of the training material for the ATC's benefit it would be good.

Why ATC did not do anything in this case? By the time the controller picks up the level bust - it may be a little too late especially if the airplane was kept high and was in a hurry to get down. Mainly to do with the refresh rate that ATC radar picks up Mode C is much slower than TCAS. That's why ATC should not transmit when airplane are in a TCAS maneuver - let the TCAS do it's job.

Sorry I digress - but the TCAS is certainly not the solution - better radio's are needed.

1) Why did both pilots in the aircraft that busted the level understood the clearance wrongly?
You have to ask the pilots in question - mindset maybe?

2) Why was this mistake not spotted by the ATC?
Explained above

3) Why did the B777 pilot not question the readback if he knows there could be a potential conflict?
Frequency could have been busy/congested/

Why no RA? Maybe because the airplanes were not within the calculated envelope of "Closest Point of Approach". Differing speeds and diverging as speculated. They would not have collided but as far as the law goes - there was a separation breakdown.

[Dave The Snail]

Veloo,

I was reading through this thread for the first time last week and noted your query on whether there was a task group formed, or any studies being done on the effects of the LCCT.

I can tell you that for the past year MAHB have been conducting several detailed simulation studies on the LCCT, associated taxiways, mixed mode operations, new terminals and increased traffic schedules. They have also been studying the impact of future traffic growth on the terminals and other infrastructure.

There have been a couple of DCA ATC (KLIA) representatives involved in these studies and I am sure you can get the details of the studies from them. They have had some great input into the studies.

Hope this helps.

Dave The Snail

[veloo maniam]

Hi FL..The info that goes into the ATIS totally depends on the kind of data we receive from the MET Services Dept. Therefore Distant Rain is given to the TWR without the distance given but only the direction and we have to tx accordingly. What can be helpful is an additional info called Tower Observation, which the Controllers rarely tx. I don't work at KLIA Twr, but when I am in Subang Tower, I make sure that sigmets n tower observations are included.The KLIA Metar is tx every half hour whereas at SZB it is every hourly. We cannot alter the info given by the MET Dept.
Let me talk to the KLIA guys n c what we can come up with.
Hi Marcellus W. tks 4 the info. Certainly u are not teaching us to suck eggs. We are learning every bit. All these threads are printed out n passed to the various sector/Approach Controllers to gather knowledge.I sincerely believe that we can learn much from each other. Why didn't the ATCer spot the level bust? While discussing this issue during the last night shift, an interesting point was raised. A very senior ATCer, who has been on many incident investigation board meetings, explained that ATCers think in 'packets'. In other words, he/she had already decided on a particular decision before the pilot would ask. However for reasons best known only to the ATCer at that moment, something else was uttered, still believing in his/her mind that that was the decision he/she had made earlier. All these is happening while he/she is still thinking and talking to a few other acft in his/her sector. At least this was what he has observed during his many sittings in investigations. I am not trying to cover up the error here but I have personally talked to ATCers who were involved in incidents where there were separation b/downs and they too revealed this startling point.I wonder why does the human mind decides on something and says something else.Marcellus.. at the end of the day...it is the responsibility of the ATCer to provide a safe and efficient system of Air Trafic Control.Period.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Dave the Snail...great to hear from u. That question regarding a task force being formed was actually directed to MAS not anyone else. If u observe it is the MH guys who has been very pro active with ATC in PPRUNE. There may be one or two others but the MH guys have been very forthcoming in trying to solve issues for the betterment in the ATC enviroment. At least this is what my colleagues and I have gathered. They even went as far as to meet us for a teh-tarik session. This proves their sincererity in working with ATC. Good to hear that u have an on-going task force working towards in providing the many services that u have highlighted. Maybe u can highlight all interested parties of the developments with regards to the plans regarding mixed mode operations and rwy upgrading in anticipation of the A380 into KLIA.Pilots need such info fast. Definitely there is going to be delays in departures and arrivals with single rwy ops. How is MAB's anticipation towards all this? What are your plans to increase rwy capacity?:ok:

[llchew]

VKL has been U/S for a few days and is not expected to be available for some time. According to our procedures drawn up by consultants, SIDs can still be issued to RNAV capable aircraft. However we have received queries on Clearance Delivery from foreign carriers about the "flyability" of the SIDs with VKL out. To avoid a hole in the Swiss Cheese becoming a potential "threat", we have stopped issuing SIDs on Clearance Delivery. It is replaced by RADAR DEPARTURE. The radar heading shall then be issued by Lumpur Tower together with take-off instructions.
I'd like to hear from pilots on
- how do you know when to execute the turn if the DME is out?;
- how do you track on the outbound radial when the VOR is out?;
- are they based on guess work or are you using other sensors like GPS etc?
We have checked with our Flight Ops and were told it can be done. We hope to find out more before allowing SIDs to be issued.
So guys, your views please.

[Virtual Reality]

Depending on individual company policy, most airlines will continue to adopt SID as published, in line with the clearance given as long as they have GPS on primary mode, accuracy of their navs eqpt are high and the intended route is programed in FMS/FMGS. Not really a problem for modern day jetliners. Ground beacons are mainly used to crosscheck the computer onboard. However, this procedure may not be suitable with "classic" type of aircraft. In fact, some latest aircraft are not fitted with ADF at all. Does that mean non ADF equipped aircraft will not be able to depart from eg. Beijing rwy 18R? (RENOB departure - mainly use NDB for initial outbound tracking). This may not be the case.
Therefore, with or without VOR/DME/NDB, one can still fly normal SID as long as the aircraft is fully equipped with other 'serviceable' sensors and individual company policy allows that to be flown.
Hong Kong TMA is an example where RNAV departure is fully adopted although they still have procedures for non RNAV equipped aircraft.
I guess, Lumpur Delivery is doing a good job for giving radar departure instead of normal SID to all aircraft to cater for all generation jetliners and different SOPs adopted by different airlines when VKL is U/S.
I personally tend to like Hong Kong ATCers, they are very positive and flow controls are very smooth considering such a small airspace with more than 1000 (one thousand) dep and arr daily that they have to handle, excludes arr and dep MFM and SZX. May be KL ATCers could learn something from them. Just a thought ....:)

[veloo maniam]

Hi Virtual Reality..chew has taken note of your reply. Many tks. Further inputs on this topic is welcome. News is that VKL will be u/s for awhile as no spare parts are available yet. Apparantly the VOR was hit by lightning. So there u are my friends, it is going to be Radar Departures for awhile. The toll is on the Approach Controllers as they have to scroll every dep to see the SID. U may experience the wrong turns(not always) b4 they bcome experts at scrolling the screens. What do u mean by the Hong Kong ATCers are +ve and their flow control is smooth. Kindly elaborate as we would like to know their style. One thing is for sure, their work culture is high above ours. That's a fact.:{

[CI54]

Hi Virtual Reality..chew has taken note of your reply. Many tks. Further inputs on this topic is welcome. News is that VKL will be u/s for awhile as no spare parts are available yet. Apparantly the VOR was hit by lightning. So there u are my friends, it is going to be Lumpur Radar Departures for awhile. The toll is on the Approach Controllers as they have to scroll every dep to see the SID. U may experience the wrong turns(not always) b4 they bcome experts at scrolling the screens. What do u mean by the Hong Kong ATCers are +ve and their flow control is smooth. Kindly elaborate as we would like to know their style. One thing is for sure, their work culture is high above ours. That's a fact.:{

Hello,

With regards to RNAV departures, all it requires to be legal for departure is for the aircraft to be fitted with suitable equipment. A facility is not specifically required to ensure compliance. The aircraft onboard navigation system will crosscheck the position accuracy by comparing its position relative to any available facility. To push this idea further, there are a few airports in remote areas that do not have any facility except a few RNAV charts for departure and VNAV arrival charts. In this case, what's needed is onboard navigation computer that is able to check its own accuracy.

Off course what is always needed is professionalism from all interested parties. If an aircraft is not fitted with such an equipment, the crew must file it as such in their flight plan. If an aircraft is experiencing an equipment failure on board, the crew must inform the ATC immediately and ask for radar headings. If there is a warning message in the aircraft concerning navigation accuracy, the crew must verify its position with the radar controller. In order to facilitate everyone, the first assumption must be all equipment will be working. Assistance will be given as and when needed. Having said all that, to enable an RNAV only departure, what is needed is RNAV certified departure. If the departure is not certified as RNAV departure, I must say the job of approach radar in KL is definitely going to be a lot tougher in the next few months.

With regards to Hong Kong Atc, yes I must say, it gives me great pleasure to fly into that place. The tone of their voice and phraseology gives me the impression they are professionals, trained to and using the best facilities available. Information is always forthcoming and they will try to accommodate your requests. If they are not able to acommodate, they will suggest available options. Clearances are given on time with no indication of rushing. Everything seems to be well planned...

Hope that helps a bit...

[Virtual Reality]

With regards to Hong Kong Atc, yes I must say, it gives me great pleasure to fly into that place. The tone of their voice and phraseology gives me the impression they are professionals, trained to and using the best facilities available. Information is always forthcoming and they will try to accommodate your requests. If they are not able to acommodate, they will suggest available options. Clearances are given on time with no indication of rushing. Everything seems to be well planned...



Apart from what had been written by C154 WRT Hong Kong ATC, it seems that they really mean business to make HKG as the preferred 'HUB' in Asia. HKG Intl arpt is The Airport of The Year for the last 4 consecutive years, which housed the Airline of The Year and if there is any award for ATC, may be they will get it as well.


To create the smoothness of the traffic flow, they have gates cum speed limit point (SLP) called 'SIERA' for traffics from PRC airspace, 'MANGO' for traffics from W, SW and S, "MELON' for traffics from E and SE. Apart from Area Radar Contlr, they have App Contlr and Director b4 be handed over to twr contlr. Although lots of freq change during arrival, one can expect un-interrupted descent until establish on LOC, except once in a while especially when you are coming from the E and rwy 07 L/R are in used, where dep and arr traffic will be crossing each other at wpt TD or RAMEN. As far as ATCer is concerned, I never hear anyone of them 'screaming & yelling' over the radio, unlike KL FIR, it is quite common to hear pilots get scolded or being told off when they make mistakes or even late in answering the radio call. I would say they are more professional in that sense although they have to face more challenges especially dealing with airlines from mainland China (hundreds of them everyday & their English ......??? eemmmm .... )


ATIS - I can get as far as 250-300 nm away or simply get it from D-ATIS.


METAR - Hundreds of miles away from 'HKG' NDB, apart from HF.


Overall, I think HKG and SIN ATC are the best in this region as far as ATC controllers are concerned. If I were to compare other services, I will be embarrassed myself. I am not trying to offend anyone but would prefer to give my sincere opinion and observation so that everyone can learn and improve.

[veloo maniam]

Tq 4 speaking your heart out. It all boils down to a concerted effort from top down. As long as it is not there, I doubt u will ever see HKG or SIN standards that most pilots speak about. It is not only in this forum, I do get calls from off-duty pilots regarding the kind of services rendered. However, there are still some good and mild mannered ATCers that I personally sat down and worked with in Subang. These are the remnants(though few and dwindling in numbers) who keep the flags flying. I am not putting my colleagues down for I know that there are other factors beyond our control that irritates us, like poor tx from us. Obviously the pilot didnt hear us at all. We didnt know about it. After three tx the pilot says 'cfm calling XXX?' . With 10-15 tfc in one's sector, that's the last thing an ATCer wants to hear from a pilot when timing is crucial (we have to meet Flow Control's requirements).Hence the rise in his/her BP and the beginning of scoldings as u have mentioned. The problem is we are still doing Air Traffic Control whereas we should be doing Air Traffic Management. The Air Traffic Control "culture" is still the norm in KUL.:ugh:

[Brianigham]

Veloo,
I think there is not much to be sorry about when it comes to atc KUL.
HKG and SIN do have the best equiptment around, and I have on numerous occasions heard HKG ATC lose their cool as well, and come up with some goof ups. SIN atc have their bad hair days as well. We pilots have our share of screwups as well.
This is my take on the ATC situation.
You guys need to be provided with the latest tools and the politicians need to get out of the whole bloody picture. PERIOD! ( excuse the anger). I see whats happening. Shots are being called by the wrong people. And the able people who make it somewhat halfway up the stairs, have got to tow the line, otherwise the litttle good they can do, will not happen because they will be sacked for speaking the right things. Everybody wants to have their cut.
The most disgraceful department in malaysia is not the dca its the aca.
When the most logical solutions are staring you at the face and we have more than enough money to implement it, but actually go ahead and do something else, in the interest of ........whatever....."nation building" if you like........then......then..... then....( its got something to do with the way you voted the last time).The issue about equiptment that came up some time ago and the lame excuse given by the minister is so symtomatic of this disease.
This is not a problem with ATC alone. It is a cancer that is eating up the whole nation. Its gonna crumble real soon.
Really Veloo and guys in KUL atcers. Some of you guys are the best I have seen anywhere in the world, and I have been around a bit.
The problem is that its you guys who should be given the free hand with the task of ensuring that this excellence is not going to go away with mandatory retirement.
If I was the boss. I would say.
"Veloo......pick your team. do whatever it takes. I want KUL ATC to be the best. Forget about past contracts, we will hire some lawyers and accountants to solve those problems. No middle men will be getting any contracts. You decide what you need and want.Just do it"
Let me tell you!
You guys will be the best in the world.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Brianigham....your 1st line explains everything.A week ago the radar tecnician told me that 6 new radar monitors are ready to be fixed. I said "wow...that's news". and he said..don't get too excited, they are going to Kinabalu first.Why? the monitors over there are in a worse situation than Subang.Bulk of the traffic is controlled from Subang ATCC. If I were the decision maker, Subang will be the priority.Period.Observe what Virtual Reality said about HKG's ATIS and METAR transmissions. The DCA pays the vendors tons of RM and in return pilots still have to go thru SIN ATC to ask for RWY in use at KUL. And what was his position? a mere 150nm from VKL.:ugh: One ATCer summed it up very well when he said " with the present scenario, I think we are already providing the best ATC service in KUL". Of course..I beg to differ bcos for me AVERAGE IS NOT AN OPTION. Being a mediocre leads u nowhere. People who live defensively never rise above being average. Brian..I think most ATCers have come to the point of "kais pagi makan pagi, kais petang makan petang". These days most ATCers just go to work and give their best to cross the bridge, whatever the bridge is. As for me and the remnants, we still can afford to smile bcos we have the PASSION for the job. AMEN and PRAISE THE LORD!:ok:

[Fair.Pilot]

Brianigham,
you are spot on! You pointed out the root of the problem and what this country is lacking- Integrity & Honesty

Uncle Veloo,
KUL ATCers will be among the best, the best is yet to come. Keep it up!

[jetrat]

velloooo......

absolutely agree.....can never accept being ok only. even being best is not enough......it's all about being BETTER...........

enough of "boleh lah...."

[veloo maniam]

Still no concrete outcome despite latest meeting on 18/5/06. Talk is that despite the availability of aprox 2500m, delays are still going to be anticipated somewhere in the region of about 15mins to get to the 2nd runway( this is due to the number of equipment that will be placed for the upgrading work). At the end of the day, looks like it doesn,t pay to go for the limited distance. However we still have to wait and see what the final arrangement is going to be. KLIA Ground has to devise a surface movement flow control system if delays are to be reduced. They must work with all the airlines to ensure up-to-date info is available by the minute so that pilots themselve can determine whether to push back or not.Those guys behind the mike in the Tower has to go all out to achieve this knowing the kind of problems contractors can pose. After all they are contractors and not air traffic managers. It's all in the hands of the ground ATCers. Any better ideas?:ok:

[lesenterbang]

Any better ideas?:ok:

Is there really a need to upgrade the runways for the A380?

[Fair.Pilot]

Is there really a need to upgrade the runways for the A380?

Whether there's a need to upgrade or not is secondary. The main issue shall be who will get the contract and which dept. will get a cut here and there....
Typical Malaysian style!

[Brianigham]

Hi Veloo,

Maybe what we need in this situation is a "zinged up" clearance dilivery.

What I mean by that is:

The main problem here is planes in a long queue, both on the ground and in the air. Delays come with cost and I applaud ATC for showing more interest in this cost factor than the payee.:ok: Thank you.

If all departures left the gates smack on the dot, then it would be easier to slot things in. As it is nowadays when there is single runway ops, it is actually not so bad at all, except during Wx and traffic peaks.

So Maybe all we need is open and continuous communication between ATC and pilots during this down time at KLIA. We have to play by ear here as well because we have operational delays as well. I think what happens when we have really bad weather in KUL and ATC advises us on how many planes are at the holding point and our sequence, works fairly well.

Maybe we could look at setting up a " flow control " as a transition between delivery and ground. This " chap " will coordinate between the 2 and the pilot, so that delivery can concentrate on clearances, ground can work on the planes on the ground and "flow" can be the in between, giving modified clearances and broadcasting congestion information. Gee.... that sounds tiring already:rolleyes:

[veloo maniam]

Hi Brian..sounds good. The go between chap seems to be a good idea. Don't know yet what KLIA Ground has in mind but there are some good ATCers up in the Tower whom I personally know can achieve something good. Have to wait n see. Keep u guys posted.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi guys..although about 2500m will be available for t/off which may be ideal for a320 n below, things still don't look so rosy. KLIA may come up with some methods to expedite taxying to the limited rwy BUT there is still going to be further delays at the holding point.News is that the B737s may be parked closer to the 2nd rwy.This solution may reduce taxying time to 32l . However delays will be still around due to the fact that KLIA Tower now has to ask for apvl from 124.2 b4 allowing a radar dep from 32l. If for any reason, the 1242 guy is busy(he should be),the apvl may not come in as expected. The present trend is autolaunch for 32r which means there is no need to ask for apvl from 1242. With the adequate wake turbulence minima in mind, KLIA will dep traffic without any coordination with ATCC at SZB. However, if there is going to be a dep from 32l at the same time, it will have to be approved by the 1242 guy. Anticipate further delays. On another note we will be reducing the minima on apch from 5nm to 3nm. It will be enforced as soon as the simulator practices are completed which may be within the next 4-5months.:ok:

[The Rage]

Velloo old boy, how in the devil have u been?

Couple of questions?
1. You mentioned that there's a relay station for lumpur atis somewhere on the east coast, but unfortunately we dont get very good range out of it. Since kuantan has an atis and they being a military station and with not very many civil flights into there, any chance they could transmit lumpur wx alternately on their freq. It would also help guys flying out of there to kul to know the latest before hand.

2. Knowing well the kind of met reporting we get from our met people and with our primary alt being SBZ. Would atc know if i tell them "negative alternate" would they know what that would mean. Since if the wx in kul is screwed likely sbz would be the same and i would rather hold if knowing kul will improve. In that case how soon can kul offer me an alternate rwy for landing? maybe from 14L to 14R or even 32L? It would safe us lots of money and time from diverting to SBZ.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Rage...first of all...greetings to all from ATC. The onward relay transmitter mentioned earlier was for 132.6 and NOT the ATIS tx which is at KLIA itself. The one at Kuantan is at a place called Bukit Pelindong.
Shameful as it sounds, there is no way Kuantan is going to tx the KUL weather from their station. Why should they. It is not their problem. Maybe we should tx on the SZB ATIS. That might help. I need to know the point at which u guys can pick SZB ATIS if u coming in from the EAST. Let me know please.
Secondly ATC would not know what u mean by "Negative Alternate".
Thirdly...swithching runways depends entirely on KLIA Tower. It may be ok if a request is made from 14L to 14R.(if duty Rwy is 14) But if u are requesting 32 then goodluck to u.
fourthly....I am not related to the devil in any way and I don't intend to.:ok:

[imdragon]

Background - the TX site in KUL, the range performance were tested and accepted as according to specs when it was commissioned way back in 1997’ and of-course with ‘aussy’ consultancy (competency is for you to interpret). During the KLIA pre-opening dialogues with MAS management flyers, its range was an issue with you guys brought up, but when told it was conformed to specs, your enthusiasm fizzled out. Maybe you should have kept pushing to impress on DCA for an upgrade, then maybe by now we would have had a couple repeaters strategically located to maximize and improve coverage.
But it is never too late. Is DCA convinced of its necessity? Is it your luxury wish list? Is there a safety implication here? What is the return on investment for the country? These are some of the questions hanging in the air. I have not heard specifically of any ATIS upgrade in the 9MP. This is Pprune, it good for it only. You have to officially present your case and justify the needs. This is the best route for any movement on a subject (radio transmission/reception and ATIS) that have that has a subject of comparison with Singapore since 30 years ago. Mid-term review of 9MP and prioritization may make your dream come true if it is a VVIP (very, very important piece) for safety. I do not think DCA is convinced on its status as a VVIP at the moment (they too have flyers) although you may have pockets of DCA sympathizers, I included.
Do you flyers use ACARS (at least the types equipped) to get wx reports from your dispatch/flight ops. Does ARINC or SITA billing structure involve costs every time you send/receive a packet of data?
Next: DECODED:KLIA departure jams at the at the holding point
Busy for now.
CHEERS TO ALL YOU GUYS OUT THERE WHO HAVE A CONSCIENCE IN DOING YOUR JOBS RIGHT!

[The Rage]

Veloo, old boy, just got back. Anyway im only able to pick up the atis around 60nm out of PK and that at FL310. I think the wx in between has something to do with the range as well. Will check SZB on my next flt.
Yes, we do have ACARS, and we do get the wx of it as well, its usually a METAR or TAF. I believe the charges are fixed for as many wx reports we req, but it changes from year to year based on the number of request.

But honestly to think about it, when on the wide body into london, we only could get the atis something like 60-80 miles prior to top of decent, and mind u we were cruising in at FL380/400. So the atis range that was promised sounds about right, but in our enviroment maybe a litlle bit degraded, but for me personally its no big deal.

P.s, Never Call an ATCer the Devil.!
Liked the guy doing controlling on app on sat eve at 8. Was very good!:D

[veloo maniam]

Hi Rage....tks 4 der input. I m still awaiting for reports from flyers about the SZB ATIS (127.6). It might help us to decide on the next course of action.
Your credit to the App Ctler is most welcome. I will pass on this praise to the guys working on sat 8pm. It's the "D" shift which also happens to be my shift:D .
The point is, if HKG and SIN can provide good ATIS services, then we should be able too. It is a sickening feeling when pilots request for RWY in use at KLIA through SIN when u could already see them on your radar ( approx 50-60NM East of PK).Perhaps as what imdragon mentioned, u guys can help us in the field by highlighting this issue officially to DCA through MAPA. Maybe MAPA can also help to bring along one or two decision makers( from the DCA's Safety Management System chaps) to see and hear for themselves what u guys are talking about. At least this will get the ball rolling. Oh yeah...the only devil i m interested in is the Red Devil.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers...a colleague of mine will be visiting WBKK soon to enhance safety culture values among ATClers over there. Constructive criticisms are welcome.Help us to improve and provide better ATC services.:ok:

[lesenterbang]

Since you're asking about WBKK there are some issues about Kinabalu tower. Their controlling in the air is okay but is is on the ground that they need to buck up.

Landing on 02, F is too short for 737 so we normally roll to the end or stop by A. But A and B is on the opposite site of the runway so there is a need to cross the runway to get to terminal 1.You need about 1 minute to enter the runway at B and exit at G. A lot of times tower gives landing clearance even at 10 miles, while someone is holding at B. If tower can hold back the clearance to about 4 miles as done in KUL, you can cross the runway and be almost at the terminal before the 2nd aircraft lands.

Of course all this can be solved easily if the authority can build a full length parallel taxiway.

[flightleader]

I found the main problem is the communication problem between tower director. The tower always has to hold departing a/c on the runway to get director approval to launch another a/c into the air even if they are going to different directions. Director has no sense of urgency to vector a/c clear of takeoff path as he don't know there is another a/c waiting for take off because the control is 2KM from the tower and probably has no window looking out to the runway! The tower on the other hand has to wait till arriving a/c call on 118.3 before lining up an a/c at holding point. Why wait? If arriving a/c hasn't call,he must be far out still and if no visual(normally tower can see more than 10nm),I see no reason why departing a/c must hold short the runway. Moreover,the radar screen at the tower shows where the a/c is.:ugh: :ugh:

On surface movement control: Just yesterday I was rather dissapointed with a woman controller.Dragon air missed twy B,had to roll to the end to back track.As Dragon enter B,the 737 ahead of me took off. As she clear us line up rwy 02,she let a Dragon enter twy A to back track and vacate via G. That was the slowest Dragon I ever seen.The 2 stages back tracking was exceptionally slow and the lady controller did ask it to expedite but once acknowledge and once ignored.She did not repeat herself when ignored which to me it is not acceptable.Even though it is not entirely her fault,but why let a departing a/c wait for an arriving a/c to cross the runway? Shouldn't departing a/c has more urgency to depart?

Departing a/c from LCCT should not be allowed to back track on the runway is other a/c is pushing back from main apron.Many times the back tracking a/c from LCCT did that to 'jump' queue getting ahead and resulting in getting higher level back to KUL.And the a/c from main apron actually had to sit at holding point for it to back track.Seems a little unfair.:=

[QNH1013]

flightleader, the BKI Air Asia aircraft from Terminal 2 are never requesting a backtrack. Clearance is always Hold at A and contact tower. It is totally up to the tower what happens next. We just follow. Sometimes backtrack and sometimes enter and vacate G, and taxi to J. If you see this as cutting que, then just tell the tower your objection or switch to tower frequency earlier. Not the LCC's fault. Anyway, most of the flights are now going to KUL at FL390 so should be more room for everybody.

P.S. On an ATC side note, could the controller at KUL let aircraft know if they want a speed restriction on decent before aircraft has started decent. So we can plan our decent profile with the speed. Giving a restriction once we already started decent doesn't help. Thanks.

Happy landings and happy controlling.

[flightleader]

QNH1013,

Perhaps you are not those who cut the queue and I'm not saying all do that but it happens often enough to have caught my attention. Glad AAsia A320 is doing BKI and KCH most. come 1st Aug,there will be more relief on MH side.

Speed restriction for descend should be planned to all major airport. Most of them published this requirement in thier AIP.Chief pilot should have included this in SOP. Nevertheless, I agree with you that speed control/sequencing in KL FIR is an rather frustrating daily affair.

[jetrat]

dear qnh1013

i am only assuming you fly for air asia, and if you are, i would like to ask for a big favour......that is to start telling the guys NOT to hold the tip of the boom mike while they transmit.
not only is it illegible to the controllers, but it is also deaffening to the other aircrafts on the same frequency. some mh guys do it too, however from my PERSONAL observation, i find that more than half of aa transmitions seem to have this effect. of course i could be absolutely wrong....

i have however, found a very nice way of demonstrating the effect of holding /toucing the tip of the boom mike,.......i demonstrate it to the other guy on the flight intercom......while i transmit with and without holding the tip of the boom mike, and the difference is just too obvious for the other party to ignore..........

just something that i was taught earlier by my captains that i'd like to share..........actually i'm sure you know how a lot of times we need to turn up the volume when with lumpur cntrol.....and that.s when it really hurts my nice little precious ear drums, when some guy transmits like that.....and then the controller cannot comprehend......and then it goes on and on and on.....

hope you'll help spread the word a little.....got to save the ears a little for the disco too ya.......

[QNH1013]

Will spread the word jetrat,

We've had complaints and actually along with improper technique like you say, some of the problem comes with many of the VHF COM boxes itself in the aircraft which along with the whole airframe are rather (too) Old and have problem with gain, static and volume...hence talking too close to the mic cos they cant even hear themselves. Fortunately the older aircraft are being phased out first.

Hope it gets easier on all your ears.

[The Rage]

People,
Excellent to see more people here talking about the betterment of the aviation in the country, be it MAS, AA or anyone else flying into the country anywhere.

Vello old boy, had a look at the atis thing and i actually got sbz atis about 135nm out of PK at FL310, which was very good compared to KLIA which i only started getting around 70-80nm. Maybe this would help in away on whats next!

I tend to be a little particular about R/T, and a very bad habbit that ive realised is guys not listening out before transmitting and it gets very irritating. Please gentlemen, correct the guys if u see this happenin on your flight. Secondly, we should stop the useage of using "confirm" after every transmission, its become a "bad" habbit. It has become a norm and the poor controllers end up repeating the whole dam clearence again! :*

[cressidom]

Hi Veloo please check your Pm.

Cheers
do

[veloo maniam]

Hi Flyers..tq for your inputs. Points noted.
BKI Tower/Ground issues will be discussed on the 26th onwards. Couple of Safety Mgmnt Sys(SMS) chaps are going over there. One of my colleagues will be on board MH2616 on the 26th of June. His name is Suresh, from KLIA Twr. This will be probably a meeting to discuss some safety issues pertaining to East Malaysia. ATC welcomes feedback.
Yes..regarding the "confirm" is also an issue with ATC. ATClers have no choice but to repeat the whole clearance when once the pilot says "confirm". Of course some might just say "Affirm" and finish it off but at the back of the mind of the ATCler, a confirm is interepreted as one which the pilot is not sure or clear hence the whole readback and as Rage as pointed out, it is really becoming a nuisance to us.Pardon me for those strong words but am glad even the pilots are thinking alike.Of course, we do understand if the frequency is bad but if five other acft has copied ok and one chap keeps saying "confirm", then it has something to do with a habit.
Rage..thanks for the readability report on 127.6. Still discussing this KUL ATIS problem with the right connection. News is that the power output for the KUL ATIS has been reduced for reasons best known to the service provider. ATC will look into it. :ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hello QNH1013...The current procedure for descent speeds are worked out by the FLOW Controller. He calculates landing times of all arriving acft based on a 100NM ring from VKL. Once this time has been established, he/she will work out the restrictions. Examples wud be like this : MH123 X ISTAN AT XXXXUTC or MH123 speed 270kts. on descent or Cruise and Descend 250kts. All these is done to achieve spacing for the Approach Ctler. Hence when a speed or crossing a waypoint restriction appears on the radar screens, the sector Ctler will abide by it. Remember, these timings are worked out for all Sectors by a single Ctler. While all these are being set, someone arriving from the south or west or north may have done a manouvere which may have resulted in say a minute lost. Hence the sudden decision made by FLOW to now give a descent speed to someone else who was actually told earlier to maintain High Speed. All these decisions are made by the FLOW Controller which every Sector CTler has to follow.This is Radar Procedure. Of course, sector ctlers can also vector out an acft from a normal profile to help out the Apch Ctler. These all depends on real time traffic management. Then again weather plays a part. Drop by my friend at the ACC at Subang. We welcome u with open arms and a good strong handshake.:ok:

[QNH1013]

Thanks veloo for the info and invitation. I see, so it's other sector traffic that changes things. Somtimes it's like the controller can't make up his/her mind. We always plan 250kts below 10,000ft anyway but if before decent ATC want a particular speed, appreciate if the flow controller can give that info or a time restriction at XXX point as easly as possible. I for one will make sure all speeds are complied with as soon as possible. I'm sure other pilots would agree, we would rather have speed restrictions imposed rather than holding.

[Chrome]

I have got a question. I have expeienced a few times on approach for landing in KUL, the wrong frequency or runway is given.

For example on calling established Localiser 14L, Approach would say "Call Tower 118.5" and just last night on approach 32L, the guy on Tower said "Continue Approach, Number 2, 32R".

Are these mistakes due to them working on other frequencies too or just fatique or any other reasons? I understand people do make mistakes, but on established 32L and getting a call "Continue Approach 32R" does waste a few seconds to try to figure out whether its my mistake or the ATC's mistake in such a critical phase of a flight.

Thanks for the help. Lady on 124.2 last night was great.

[llchew]

The FLOW controller actually works out all the speed requirements or crossing time requirements or holding instructions way before the top of descent. Therefore the most probable reasons that you get it late are:
a) you are inbound from PK or PADLI. By the time Singapore tranfers you to us at PK or PADLI, you are already coming to top of descent; or
b) controller oversight - yes, unfortunately that happens.
When you contact Approach 124.2 or 119.45, the sequence will work provided the guy supposed to be in front does not deviate due weather or leave the holding pattern a couple of minutes. Either one of the above happens, all the earlier planning goes out the window. You may be asked to increase speed when asked to descend at 260 knots earlier or you may be asked to reduce speed when you have just been asked to maintain high speed.
Bottom line is the FLOW controller's plan is based on everything going on smoothly - weather wise etc. Many a time they don't and the Approach controller has to revise the plans thus giving pilots the impression that en-route and FLOW controllers are not in synch.
Hope this gives you a better picture.

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers..just back from visiting a couple of towers up north in Peninsular Malaysia. Paid particular attention to the way English was spoken. Personally I feel that there is much room for improvement. What say u guys? Any constructive suggestions. Do u guys have any problems understanding what our ATClers are saying easily or is it with difficulty on your side?:ok:

[Chrome]

I personally do not find any difficulty understanding. Maybe because I am Malaysian and I am used to the way Malaysians talk. On rare occasions though I do have to pause 2 seconds and think of what the controller is saying. But that's mostly due to inexperience.

Mr Veloo, what does ACD mean?

[Virtual Reality]

I spoke to few mates at Cathay Pacific and they said the standard of English of Malaysian ATCers are generally good but would prefer to stick their RT to standard phraseology to avoid confusion.

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers..tks for the inputs...first things first
Chrome...ACD stands for Airways Clearance Delivery. This unit is based at the Subang ATCC. These are the guys whom u have to contact to get your airways clearance, better known to u as Delivery. U wud have observed that 95% of the clearance requests is given immediately (i.e within 20secs or so). This is due to the ATCler activating the Electronic Flight Strips(EFS). One has to activate it by placing the cursor on the flight strip and clicking the mouse.Only when a EFS is activated, the transponder appears. Sometimes delays in replies occurs when the system is slow in responding.There is also another term which u may have heard called the No PDC (Prior Departure Coordination). This method helps us to reduce coordination with adjacent ATCC like SIN/VTBB/VOMM etc. For eastbound to East Malaysia we have No PDC levels of F270/290/330. We do not have to coordinate with SIN. ACD will provide the clearances accordingly on a first come first served basis. For flights beyond East Msia, we have F270/290/320 (for RNP10 routes). For southbound to JKT and beyond, we have No PDC levels of 290 n 330. Other levels are subject to coordination from SIN. Hence the delay in giving an immediate clearance (eg F350/370/410 etc). We have to wait for the Sector Controller to activate the EFS.Sometimes delays occur due to EFS not appearing on the monitor screens due to various reason. Here the ATCler has to manually type in all the FPL details inorder to 'create' an EFS. Hope this helps though there is much more to explain.
Virtual Reality...tks..one reason, as u have mentioned is inexperience. The other one is due to many new controllers being trained all over the country to gain on-the-job experiences. Yes...we tend to deviate from the standard RT phraselogies many times though trained to speak according to the Manual of Air Traffic Services in the DCA College. The problem is that the OJT coaches themselves tend to deviate from std phraseologies. These poor trainees have no other choice but to follow the 'boss' in each shift. If u have time look into the ATC issues sections under ATC skills lost. Many ineteresting points in there.:ok:

[The Rage]

Hello Mates,

Just a complain or two that i would like to high light.
1. I've noticed Pen tower has made it a habbit of instructing guys to clear onto 'C' while we are half way tru our landing run,and at times, depending on the situation 'C' becomes a bit difficult unless u stamp on the brakes. Suggest they actually see that the aircraft can make 'C' before clearing them onto it.

2. Please do something about KCH atc! I personnally beleive that the controllers there are very conservative. For easterly dep's , we prefer rwy 07, it saves heap's of fuel. But the coordination between area control and tower is appauling. I was denied a 07 dep, only to spend a good 10 mins getting into rwy 25 when i could have departed in less than 5 from 07. To makes thigs worst, after airborne i found out that the closest a/c landing was 60nm's away! Then why couldnt i just have dep out of 07, would have saved me time, fuel and stress. I understand they are doing quite a bit of training at kch for the new atc'ers, but that does not meen they have to have an impact on normal ops.
Its just everytime im there, it just gets me frustrated with the level of in-efficiency.

[veloo maniam]

Hello Rage...tks for the highlights. Yeap I quite agree with you that ATC inefficiency still exists in radar environment. News is that radar blips dissappear as soon as they are identified in many parts of East Malaysia due to terrain and other technical reasons. Hence too much of procedural control sets in and believe it or not it is a norm for radar controllers in the east to apply procedural methodologies in such environment. Couple it with traning sessions and u go thru situations just as u did.
As for PEN, all Aerodrome CTLers are to watch the speed of all acft that has just landed before giving taxiing instructions. I will speak to the Tower SATCO and set some wrongs right.
As for KCH, I will ask my colleague at the HQ to look into it and try to improve the part on being expeditious. Keep in touch.:ok:

[flightleader]

Veloo,

What influence/control do you have on the KUA and LBU tower/app controller? These guys are way below and need a boost badly.

[Fair.Pilot]

Good co-ordination today (09 July) between the KUL CONTROL and APPROACH. Landed and departed KLIA twice, good to hear 2 Controller over the tower 118.8 freq.
If only 14R (A6 and beyond) also made available in the afternoon & night,
things could be much better!
Keep up the good work!:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Sorry brother...out of our limits. Exactly what is the problem? May try to slow talk with KUA but LBU is way out. Currently I am teaching/training some staff in Approach Procedure Control in the DCA College. Replies may be delayed. Kindly be patient.Will try to solve as much problems as possible with the available time. Glad to see u guys posting positive notes about our ATClers. Tks guys.:ok:

[The Rage]

Vello old boy, ive seen some good controlling of late at klia and app, maybe we should keep the rwy closed for a lot longer. Anyway, small point if you could kindly relay to grnd control. I think its about time they stop giving 14L/MS and stuff like that, coz here we are on the high speed taxi out and we get clearence like that, it only makes us stamp on the brakes while the poor F/O tries to figure what it means. Maybe the initial clearence could be the taxi route like take next right on to T2 and call grnd on 122.15, and let the othere guy issue the rest of the taxi clearence based on the taxiway names. It helps me coz ill be looking out and i can see the boards all over , makes it easier for us, and im sure for the controllers as well, seeing so many lanes are now close.

The Rage

[Chrome]

Does anyone know why a few days ago Tower 14L freq was 121.65?

[Fair.Pilot]

I guess when it's non-peak period, the tower also takes charge of the GND 121.65 freq.(Taxiway A and B which is next to 14L)

[Brianigham]

Hi Veloo,

I have got a suggestion to be passed on to KLIA TWR and GRD.

After landing RWY 14L, we usually exit at A6 then we get a taxi clearance like this:

"MH 1234 clear taxi to bay A2 right, via taxi route 14L MS"

Nothing wrong there except:

We are now on taxiway A.

Just as we approach B8, we are told to change frequency, and we ussually get a hold short of Bravo even when there is no traffic.

Same scenario on departure. when we taxi out we get a taxi clearance all the way to the holding point, only to be told hold short of Bravo, just as we change over to another freq.

Maybe we can look at a smoother taxi instruction scheme.

Thanks for the great help with this thread again Veloo.

[veloo maniam]

Chrome...Fair Pilot has answered your query to your thread on 121.65.
Brian...I have relayed the requests to my buddies at KLIA and they will smoothen up things soon...tks 4 being patient.:ok:

[Chrome]

Fair.Pilot, but this wasn't the case of Tower 118.8 being in charge of Ground 121.65. It was Ground 121.65 being in charge of Tower 118.8, giving instructions to aircraft on approach and giving clearances to land and takeoff. Well I know it's not that important but I was just wondering why. No biggie.

Hi Brianigham. I don't see what's the big nuisance in having 2 Ground frequencies on arrival. Just anticipate and change frequencies when asked to with just a push of the freq transfer button. Why is that not 'smooth'?

We have 2 Ground frequencies monitoring arriving/departing traffic for the 2 runways (121.8/121.65) and 5 other Ground frequencies concentrating on monitoring ingoing/outgoing traffic, manoeuvring instructions, push/start clearances and for aircraft towing in their own specialised areas in the various terminals and cargo aprons in KLIA. There's nothing wrong with that system in my mind.

[Brianigham]

:) Hi Chrome,

I have nothing against 2 frequencies on the ground, air or even in the flightdeck sir.

How many we have , I am sure is decided by people in the know and who have put in some very insightful and real time research.

The help I needed from Veloo, was to pass on some info to ground control.
There are quite often " conflicting " clearances from one ground controller to another. IE one clears you all the way to the bay and then passes you on to the next chap who issues a " standard " "Hold short of bravo".

Many a time this can happen just as you are crossing bravo or approaching bravo.

A few of the guys were talking about this at the crew room in KLIA. We feel it might just be bordering dangerous. All of us in the room that day have experienced some cowboy like taxi speedsters who "potong trip". Coupled with this we thought that it might look like the perfect brew for disaster. So I told the guys I will jot down a quick note here at the most proactive thread I have experienced.

I am quite used to different "ground area" control. Zoning if you like. Some airports even have different GOV agencies controlling different areas an the ground. Sorry if I wasn't clear on what I was suggesting earlier.

[Chrome]

Thanks Brianigham, I understand where the concern is now. We are (pilots, controllers, dispatch etc) all trying to get used to AIP09/2006. And since it's going to be around for months to come, feedback is appreciated. Thanks for clarifying :)

[Fair.Pilot]

Looking out from the Satellite Terminal I could not see any work in progress for Runway 14R. Or do you guys in "Boleh" Land stop contruction work after 5pm? I've been observing this everytime I land into KLIA since 1 month ago.

Please don't close the runway for the sake of closing! Double up the construction pace and save the misery for all! Fuel price is on the rise too!

Or just another "Sikap Tidak Apa?"

[imdragon]

[QUOTE=Chrome]Fair.Pilot, but this wasn't the case of Tower 118.8 being in charge of Ground 121.65. It was Ground 121.65 being in charge of Tower 118.8, giving instructions to aircraft on approach and giving clearances to land and takeoff. Well I know it's not that important but I was just wondering why. No biggie.
Hi Brianigham...............
Chrome, your curiosity is well founded. It is safer to have all traffic operating on the designated frequencies. Situational awareness among the pilots operating into and out of the same runway is improved and pilots can catch controller fowl-ups. We erect walls or rather displace the ‘Swiss Cheese’ holes in the slices so that all do not align and end up in an incident/accident. Believe me; I have come across many instances where pilot/controller queries (works both ways) have saved situations. It helps push air-safety a notch higher. During my days in KLIA I never condoned take-off and landing clearance on other than the designated frequencies. Unfortunately some of controllers did practice it then and the inclination to do it more often happens during the lull nights. But it is during this lull night periods that controllers fight hard to keep their eyes open and it only needs two traffic to catch the controller off-guard.
I am not a privy to the culture now. There could be other genuine reasons for the particular event. Consider two real-life situations below.
1. Flight comes on the wrong frequency. After weighing the situation for the sake of expediency and reducing pilot workload the controller may elect to give the instructions on the frequency the flight is currently on. This event could have been triggered by both controller and/or pilot error. Chances of controller instructing the wrong frequencies, I presume increases when the controller moves from one frequency to another in ad-hoc rotation and of-course fatigue/ loss of concentration etc.etc
2. The designated frequency could have failed. (Even then there they also have quality backup radios readily available at each of the each of the workstations/frequencies.)
I believe ATC management in KLIA is extremely safety conscious despite the accompanying constraints of a government organization. If they catch any safety lapses I am sure they would put it right. Time permitting, events quoted can be clarified, acted upon or even resolved if a call is made on the land-line to the Tower Supervisor (direct line 603-87874230) of the shift at the soonest. Notwithstanding the previous I am sure Veloo would try to deliver the message. If opportunity arises I will do it too.

[The Rage]

Vello old boy,
Hows it going in atc? I just got a company memo, that there would be some atc'ers doing some flts with us? Can u tell me whats it going to be about, coz i think there's going to be one on my flt. Looking foward to it!

The Rage

[veloo maniam]

Hi Rage....glad to hear from you young man....There is a programme called Familiarisation Flights(better known as FAM Flights among Controllers) for ATClers all over the world. These are actuially "study" trips whereby ATClers sit in the cockpit and observe cockpit crew workload and are to monitor ATC conversations. The goal is to get the ATCler to see for himself/herself what exactly transpires in a particular flt. The ATCler is supposed to ask some questions and so forth. The main idea is to see the 'busyness' the crew go thru particularly during landings so that we may not ask you silly questions like acft registration while u r trying your best to avoid the dog on the rwy. The other reason is also to hear for themselves how fast we tend to talk compared to SIN and BKK Controllers. Also if may add, let the ATCler hear for himself how 'smooth,clear and crisp'' our ATC transmissions are at the moment. Other than that, they r supposed to visit the tower or ATCC in the particular destination to see how 'advanced' we r. Welcome us please with open arms. Some of them may tend to talk too much while others may come in with super glue in their mouths...help them out mate. Make their trips a truly educational one....don't 4get the satay and the guava juice...my favourite.Ciao my brother:ok:

[The Rage]

I can promise the guava juice but not the satay, thats only on certain int sectors. Thanks, i'll bring some ear plugs and im sure ill get the others talking. Bet on it!

[veloo maniam]

Tks Rage..I know u guys r waiting to 'educate' the Controllers.
By the way my new mobile no. is 019-2316519. Kindly take note n pls pass this info to the other Capts. about this FAM Flight programme.:ok:

[vertalop]

I was observing a flight recently and noticed that the take-off clearance was given as part of a long message which included frequency to change to once airborn and other instructions. The pilot read back the frequency change and level instructions but not the take-off clearance. We then rolled.

Is it normal policy in Malaysia that a take-off clearance shall be issued separately from any other clearance message? If not maybe this is worth considering.

As a pilot I hope that I always clearly transmit "cleared for take-off" before I do so, so that if I have made a mistake the contoller has a chance to stop me.

[veloo maniam]

hi Flyers...I have been receiving some sms regarding poor Flow control restrictions i.e Area Radar Controllers giving instructions 'last minute' and the normal 'why can't u guys make up your mind earlier' stuff. To be fair to the Flow controller, some of them have been doing a great job. With the on-going Air Defence Exercise, there are times when the Flow Controller goofs up some timings. I would like your opinions on this matter.
No 2, I would like to know how much 'damage' does the on-going Air Exercises do to your liquid gold. This is due to pushing down the airplanes much earlier than your top-of-descent.:ok:

[flightleader]

Veloo,

Please send my regards to all the ATCers for doing a good job. I've notice that they are now efficient and comfortable enough too space a/c down to 5nm on approach and around 7nm with departure in between.:D

As for better improve the current situation, may I suggest ATCers bring this up to high authorities:

The recent runway closure for upgrade had cause much delays to ALL aircrafts. MAHB has plan to switch runway once 14R is completed. Same sort of delays can be expected except it would be longer ground time on arrival instead of departure.It would still be delays. The runway upgrade is to prepare for A380. Now with Airbus delayed delivery,which we may well see another announcement very soon, MAS's A380 may not come next year or or the year after or it may never come at all!!! With today's airlines that fly in and out of KLIA, which one of them could use a A380? Not in the next 2 to 3 years. Simply because these airlines would not get their a/c yet.OK, even if they get it, they could not fill it up with KLIA's traffic! Let examine which airline uses B747 at this stage: Saudi, MAS, Lufthansa once in a blue moon...who else? Just a hand full. Therefore, what's the hurry to upgrade both the runways?? Wouldn't one runway be enough to cater the "occational future" use by the A380? I suggest MAHB should DELAY 2nd runway upgrade until there is solid ground to show that one of these big plane is actually gonna use this airport!

I'm suggesting this to be done by ATCers simply because you have the figures of a/c movements,we drivers don't.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Flightleader...tks for the compliments. It is true that we ATClers are seeing ourselves as Air Traffic Managers rather than ATClers. The ATS Division has been quite active this year with their Safety Courses here and there. I personally too have been 'educating' a number of young controllers about this air traffic management thing and also that we are service providers for which the Government is paying us. It is therefore our duty to provide the best form of ATS(air traffic services) to all who use the Malaysian FIR. The problem is that only a few of us pride in ourselves as ATClers whereas most of them just consider it as a job( just over bored). I just love this job and would always endeavour to give my best. We are also encouraged to see the director of ATS dropping by during the night shifts to see how things are going. All these highlights by u guys are paying off too.U know..many are reading your inputs too especially in ATC. Tks for your support. I believe it is working bothways. About the rwy upgrading for the A380, there is nothing much any one of us can do. I believe the tenders and contracts have all been given out and work has to go on.Yes ATC has the figures but it is MAHB that is calling the shots.Sorry..ATC can't offer any help here. There is a joke that goes about like this. In every marriage there are 4 rings. The engagement Ring, the wedding Ring, the suffeRing and finally the enduRing. Depends in which phase one is.:ok:

[Fair.Pilot]

Veloo and team... WELL DONE!

Things are improving slowing but surely.


Just to share my experience on 132.6 few days ago. An a/c missed some ATC instructions and was trying to confirm last clearance. A female voice in a loud and irritate tone responded "AFFIRM!!!" Another time an a/c asked for deviation due weather, and the respond from a man was a quick and short"APPROVED!!!"

We all know the frustrations that come with the job. But don't forget the world (other a/c from all over the world) is watching us.

Malaysia Boleh!

[veloo maniam]

Fair Pilot...tks for your input. Let me offer my apologies for the irritant reply by the female ATCler. I feel sad when ATClers shout and potray their displeasure at pilots.ATClers need to be firm but not irritating. What we tend to forget is that the reception varies at different locations.Either we dont get u or u dont get us. Hence the BP goes up. Of course there are times too when pilots goof up and irritate us but then again we are trained to handle matters politely. There is one particular airline who just keeps silent when restrictions are given. However if they want a higher level or deviation, the response is immediate.Not once or twice but 95% of the time:{ .I have personally called six times before I got a response whereas others nearby and further away were reading us strength 5. Basically most ATClers try their best in not losing their temper BUT once in awhile it happens. To err is human to forgive is divine, so goes the saying. Just for your info, the 132.6 sector (known as Sector 3) is a busy sector. If u had read my earlier threads, one single controller has to monitor traffic in n out of KLIA/SZB via PK/Padli, VKB,IGARI, to n fro PEN via VKB and tfc to n fro BKK/SIN etc. I do not understand why despite the decision to split this sector long ago, the progress is still at snails pace. Perhaps the ATS Division believes that if we can handle it for so long why not continue.:ugh: Take heart my friend, we are trying to improve. I have a brother in law who flies the jumbo with MAS. Whenever we meet n talk about ATC in Malaysia n most other parts of the world, we are not that too bad although there is room for improvement. what say u? Malaysia pun boleh:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Just recieved a phone call from a W/Body Capt. regarding speed restrictions given after Top of Descent(TOD). The question was why is that speed restrictions are given after they have commenced their descent. This happens most of the time when they are inbound from the south (Abm Arama) and PK.
Good question Capt. The reason is speed restrictions are imposed by the Flow Controller as soon as he/she decides on the sequence into KLIA. Once this is done, the Sector Ctler will advise the acft accordingly when in contact.This phrase 'when in contact' can be when one has already started their descent in SIN a/space (eg just before VJR) or well before PK depending upon the height.
Pro active CTlers like me will call up SIN and advise SIN ATC to advise the acft regarding descent speed so that one can adjust their speed accordingly. Not many ATClers do that for reasons best known to them. I know it is very frustrating to receive a restriction when one is already too close.
My advise is that when you are inbound into KUL the next time, check with SIN ATC whether there are any speed restrictions in your descent. This helps eliminate a lot of frustration for both flyer and CTler. Many times SIN ATC swithches frequencies right on the dot at ABM Arama or PK. By that time you are already well past your TOD.:ok:

[jetrat]

hi there velloo,

hi there,

sorry for the long silence, has been quite a while. have basically been away, am now with the "big bird" at the roundabout down the street,....:rolleyes: ...
noticed that the bigger "one too many engine" bird in szb is kinda given quite low priority when it comes to traffic management in szb.

would you please impress on the guys in szb tower that this bird burns quite a bit of fuel more than the light aircrafts and the turboprops that also operate there.....maybe you could suggest that they ask the other traffic if they would mind swapping sequence with the md11 as the operations are extremely time sensitive....and....not to mention have slots to make for the ever busy routes....etc.

i know if i were flying the smaller ones, i'd not have any issue with letting the "heavies" expedite their arrivals and departures,.....especially since they are scheduled operators....and the fact that they burn only less than the jumbo....

hope you'd put in a kind request to the szb twr guys......ill remember to drop by and say hi too..... :} .

[The Rage]

Hey jetrat old boy,

Nice to see u back. Been a while, was starting to miss you. Ok u bring up WMSA issues, since that ure new home for the time being.

P.S. Thanks for informing me before u left!:(

[Chrome]

Hey guys,

Wishing all Lumpur and Kinabalu FIR regulars, controllers and pilots a happy Deeparaya.

I sure hope my crew will send some of that rendang to the cockpit...

[Brianigham]

Jetrat!!!!

Well done bro!

Back to good ol' 15/33 eh!

The good thing is that "kayu" is still @ the same place.


Veloo. I little late, but have a blessed Divali sir. Same to everyone else out there.
Merry DEEPARAYA.

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers, ATClers in KUL FIR...KUL ATC wishes all a wonderful Deeparaya.
Jetrat...SZB is catering for all types of acft unlike KLIA. Here u have mosquitos to Jumbos. It's also a training ground for new ATClers. Hence u will see basically a first-come-first served basis going on here. With a very limited a/space (5nm and GL-1500') there is nothing much one can do. All IFR flts depend on the Approach Controllers jurisdictions.Period.We'll try to accomodate u. Give me a tingkle.
Chrome n Brianigham...thanks for the wishes. The Raya week has always been a busy week working....for the last 32years. Another 6 more and goodday to ATC. I enjoy every moment of it.Nothing can beat passion.:ok:

[jetrat]

yes the good ole subang inter......
minus the building and lots of grass......:}
still, exciting times.....

yeah i suppose there's the lot there.....don't forget to deep freeze the mutton curry too .........:ok:

oh....gotta try recall the days of the jumbo and the ndb approach into subang too.......

[flightleader]

Congratulations to the guys who man tower and ground freq on the 26th when the big TS hit KUL around 3.30pm.

I was monitoring both freq and I observed these guys was doing their job so professionally that they are second to none in this part of the world. Tower's effort to request each a/c observation after they landed and ensure that the following a/c copied is commendable. His reports had made 5 a/c hold at the holding point which I would say it was good call to delay the take off.The ground controller also ensure these a/c reports passed on to those who are awaiting to push back.His visual observation include visibility in metres in various direction and a discirption of what he could see ie: satelite building etc. The windshear warning was updated real time and driver like me could mentally drawn up a picture of how the storm was moving. I take my hat of to these guys!! Keep it up and thank you very much! :D :D :D

[Fair.Pilot]

I fully agree. Well done boys! :D

[veloo maniam]

To Flight Leader and Fair Pilot. Your appreciation on a good job done is most welcome. The wx was really terrible. I was on 132.8 on that afternoon and and in my 32yrs of ATS experience never have I seen a total of 17 aircraft HOLDING for weather(wx) improvement in all sectors put together.. Yes..it was a concerted effort by ALL that particular afternoon and it was a job well done. Kudos to all pilots for all the patience rendered to ATC.:ok:

[flightleader]

Dear Veloo,

It was a sad day(Nov 4th) for me and to an extent,to the motion behind this thread.At around 4.45pm LT, I was on KIDOT arrival with an a/c immediated behind.At somewhere near VIRON,a right HDG 255( away from airfield) was given to me and the guy behind by the chap manning 124.2.we enter
some weather( we accepted the HDG since we were close to the airfield). Instruction were given to expedite descend to 5000' when passing around 9000' with the a/c more than 40nm track miles to run. A traffic was observed on Tcas arriving from the north.I was clear 3500' twice.I was then given a HDG 240 to close in and reduce speed to 210kts.(was 250kts).Speed reduction was carried out without delay but it was SHOCKING when the control shouted (Yes,shouted)
"WHAT SPEED ARE YOU MAINTAINING?",we answer "210kts". He then said" You are too
close reduce speed 180kts,maintain heading". He then said" Maintain HDG to intercept localiser" when we were 2nm to the centreline. Obviously we overshot the centreline with maximum acceptable bank angle to negotiate a 100 degree intercept heading and when we reported established,he annoyingly said" You've cross the centreline and turn xxx hdg....clear approach". I advised him that the intercepting instruction was too tight and he need not use this tone on us(Shouted). He defended by saying" You are number 5 and we are trying to pull you in closer". I told him that we were not given any speed control prior nor sequence number and appreciate if can be informed earlier.He came back with "Yeah,next time we tell you a hundred miles out" and my reply was" Yes,appreciate that too".

How could a controller this rude when he is the one who scr*wed up closing us into the preceeding a/c?Didn't he note our groundspeed before he decide to turn me HDG 240? Perhaps he freaked out when the system gave him a warning on the screen(I'm just guessing here),wouldn't an instruction to turn us away from the a/c (which is more than 6nm ahead of me) be more useful than shouting out a question "What speed are you maintaining"???It is all right to make a little mistake but the sarcasm he had was after the conflict was resovled very uncalled for.Needless to say he freaked out! Air Traffic Controller should never freak out and shouting question.Conflict resolution should take priority.

After this incident,I have lost the confidence I used to have in ATCers as I reckon this controller has been around quite a long time If the senior guy can be this incompetent,hard to image the younger guys can be any better.and attitude and behavior like this is directly opposing the direction of which we are all trying to forge in this forum.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Flightleader..I have read every bit of it. I will reply soon. Have already talked to the ATCler concerned. You have been very supportive of Pilot/ATC work harmonisation together with some of your other colleagues. Lets not lose our focus but rather work towards the enhancement of a good ATC/Pilot relationship through this forum. I always enjoyed your inputs. It keeps us balanced and checked. If u need to talk to me kindly call 019-2316519. I think its time to have a another teh tarik session....seriously...on us. Best regards. Your friend in ATC:ok:

[The Rage]

Teh tarik is always better than the coffee i get, just tell me when n where. Got some new guys on the fleet with loads of international exp. Will get them to come as well. Catch u around, will be on the right seat for the next few days. Hope flightleader would come.

Cherioo.

[veloo maniam]

Flightleader..kindly pm me.
Rage...will let u know about the teh tarik session.:ok:

[flightleader]

Veloo,

Thanks for looking into this matter. I do not wish to pursue this matter further,what had happened had happened,nor any official report filed. I've said what was needed,done. PM you.

FL

[thangiah]

Flight Leader

Approach Radar Controllers at Subang welcome constructive criticism from pilots inorder to improve the service provided. However a report of this nature should have been submitted formally to the Department Of Civil Aviation Malaysia for an investigation. As a matter of fact the board of inquiry is chaired by its Director General himself. The inquiry will reveal the appropriate remedial action to be taken if required.
We do agree the workload is heavy in the cockpit during bad wx condition. It is equally heavy in the respective ATC workstation during this time. Arrival sequence set at 100 miles very often had to be changed due to extensive deviation by aircrafts. This is a fact and it is unavoidable.
As a result of this, approach radar controllers have to make safe and correct decision instantly inside the TMA in changing the arrival sequence.
Approach radar controllers at Subang very often provide track shortening for all arriving aircrafts and the shortest route to intercept the airway for all departing aircraft. This is done inorder to conserve fuel for the airlines without comprimising safety even during bad wx condition. On Nov 4th this was exactly what the controller was doing.(Shouting Not Acceptable)
Your generalized negative remark - Quote - "After this incident,I have lost the confidence I used to have in ATCers as I reckon this controller has been around quite a long time If the senior guy can be this incompetent,hard to image the younger guys can be any better.and attitude and behavior like this is.
Remarks like this over the web can be counter productive. What happens if some approach radar controllers decide to stick to the books strictly, where all arrivals/departures are to follow the respective STAR's/SID's. Think about it.

[flightleader]

Thank you for your comment. Yes,I have less confidence in ATC nowadays as I've said. If you can't share my view in this,I can't help.I have no regret to drop this issue without writting an official complain. People make mistakes.I've highlighted it here and Veloo had done something to it and that's it. There is not my intention to spoil someone rice bowl.

You very first post here is threaterning the airlines with 'By the book,SIDs,STARs',where have you been all this while? how would you like it if the pilots make official reports on the smallest mistake ATCler makes? Don't you think this sort of actions of attacking each other rather childish and bring no mutual benefit? Less confidence does not mean that I'm against ATClers. The airline had many meetings with ATC to improve efficiency to the benefit of both.It had to take the closing of 14R recently to bring out the best of efficiency of controller we see today.We, the airline pilots sincerely glad to this improvement. Having said that,most of arrival into KUL are on the STARs,same as to SIDs on departures.Direct tracks to SUKAT,PADLI,on departures or 10nm finals on arrivals has very little benefit but it is still always welcome and appreciated. Give me direct KUL FIRs boundary like TAMOS,IGARI,PK or ARAMA if you can. If others ATClers start to impose the low mentality actions you've mentioned on us just because of one incident like this,than we are all wasting our time in this thread including your very first post.

[pecyamfa]

So is Subang going to get a new radar soon for the safety of all of us...

[thangiah]

Thank you very much for your response. After reading it, I rest my comments. Anyway people in our industry, who read this whole episode beginning 11th Nov 2006 from flight leader will form their own opinion.
Once again, thank you very much.

[thangiah]

Thank you very much for your response. After reading it, I rest my comments. Anyway people in our industry, who read this whole episode beginning 11th Nov 2006 will form their own opinion.
Once again, thank you very much.

[flightleader]

QUOTE=thangiah;2986325] Anyway people in our industry, who read this whole episode beginning 11th Nov 2006 from flight leader will form their own opinion.
Once again, thank you very much.[/QUOTE]

What does this means?

Everyone in Pprune has their own opinion. We play the game not the player. Your deliberate quote of my 'name' here and date has reflected that you are not the people that can sit down and talk it over and work things out which we are trying to do here in this forum in order to bring mutual benefits. You are more inclined to pick on people's mistake and report them to the DG perhaps.

The traffic in KUL today is equavalent to Newark NY 10 years ago.It is still far from places like LA,London etc....We've seen it then and very glad our inputs brought results,good results. Thanks to ATClers like Veloo that have the passion for their job and took the effort to move forward. We sincerely hope that our home ground could one day be the same or better than those big airports.

If this little episod in the forum made you turn away from contributing to KUL FIRs,then we are obviously on different wavelength. However,your future comments will be read with an open mind.Cheers.

[veloo maniam]

Hi pecyamfa...I hope u r talking about the new radar screens in the main ATCC at Subang. All the old Sony screens have been replaced with a brand called Barco Monitors. The resolution is quite good.All these were done sometime last month. However our frequencies are still not up to the mark especially 123.75 around AGOSA/Sukat areas. 132.6 comes in with a crackling noice. For eg..out of the 10 words maybe about three are unreadable. This normally happens all over. We still try our best to understand what u guys are saying by asking u to say again or confirm etc.. It is quite irritating though.I also notice a number of pilots reconfirming with us.I think the problem is not only with us but also in the cockpit Hope this answers your query.:ok:

[pecyamfa]

Hi pecyamfa...I hope u r talking about the new radar screens in the main ATCC at Subang. All the old Sony screens have been replaced with a brand called Barco Monitors. The resolution is quite good.All these were done sometime last month. However our frequencies are still not up to the mark especially 123.75 around AGOSA/Sukat areas. 132.6 comes in with a crackling noice. For eg..out of the 10 words maybe about three are unreadable. This normally happens all over. We still try our best to understand what u guys are saying by asking u to say again or confirm etc.. It is quite irritating though.I also notice a number of pilots reconfirming with us.I think the problem is not only with us but also in the cockpit Hope this answers your query.:ok:

Hi veloo maniam,

Oh, but I believe it was mentioned somewhere the present radar is already more than 10 years old, so is it still reliable to function accordingly. Of course new monitors do help too but for how long more?? Btw, Tks for the reply.

[Fair.Pilot]

Under 9th Malaysian Plan, hundreds of millions of $$$ project are given to
Class 'F' (Failure :p ) Contractors. Can someone get some money to buy better radar for air safety?
"Berhati-hati di Ruang Udara"

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers..yes the radar heads are more than 10 years old but still functioning as the maintenance is handled well. But then again these are all electronic equipment.We'll have to wait n see how long these 'heads' can last.The back-up radar( handled by a different company) is u/s at the moment awaiting spare parts. Should be functioning in the near future(don't ask me how near is this near-future).
Fair Pilot..not to worry..even if Radar fails, we can still handle with procedure control...of course with slot times for dep and arr followed by the chaos at KLIA. (Malaysia Boleh Pak):ok:

[pecyamfa]

Hi flyers..yes the radar heads are more than 10 years old but still functioning as the maintenance is handled well. But then again these are all electronic equipment.We'll have to wait n see how long these 'heads' can last.The back-up radar( handled by a different company) is u/s at the moment awaiting spare parts. Should be functioning in the near future(don't ask me how near is this near-future).
Fair Pilot..not to worry..even if Radar fails, we can still handle with procedure control...of course with slot times for dep and arr followed by the chaos at KLIA. (Malaysia Boleh Pak):ok:


Hi,

You mean the radar at Bukit Subang is down. If I recall it caught fire in 1994 rite? And now its down again. So who are we relying on then?

[The Rage]

The radars in this country are still fairly new, its the supporting equipment and software that needs updating. Most major airports have the same radars as us. Have u ever seen the radar in Heathrow? Well ours looks like something out of the 22nd century.

Hi again veloo,
Well i have been picking up alot of open mike transmissions on 132.6 lately, just wondering if its got to do with the upgrading on your side? Transmissions on the other 2 sectors seem fine to me.
On a different note, just wondering how fast can atc react to change of runways due to wx. Got caught out a few days back due to microburst on the app and twice mind you! We were running low on fuel and 14L was not the best rwy for that time, a few guys had requested a change to 32R but it took a while to get it in motion. I can understand that there would be guys already planned for the dep out of 14L, but i feel that priority should be to recover those running on dry tanks first. Those with fuel can hold out for a while, clear the departures and then recover the rest. As for me, by the time we were cleared for the app, the wx had moved onto the app of 32R and micro burst alert came on again, but it wasnt as bad as the earlier reports, i was running low and eventually landed without much of a hassle, no windshear just heavy rain. But i personally felt that it could have been done sooner, the moment the wx starts to move in, decisions should be made to change the app, and hold the dep's on the ground if their flt path takes them tru windshear/microburst. Im looking at it from a pilots point, love to hear how you guys see it?

Thangiah and Flight Leader,
Lets not get into a shouting match here, this is not the right place. we have a great thing going here, improvements have been made. Good ones in fact. I think we have acheived more here on the forum then what our big fat bosses had ever achieved after 2 dozen meetings and dinners over a period of 10 years. Lets not waste it, tempers flare, but we are proffesionals at the end of the day. But at the same time, i must say this, that in all my years of flying all over the world, i have never heard an Atc'er shout. Strict, firm, commanding, sarcastic and many more but never shouting.

But i'll tell you guys what we really dont have, and thats a good sense of humour! A joke or funny situation could be there, but for some reason our people never seem to get it! Check out ATC forum, under humour. The English, aussies and yanks are very natural at it, wish we could have a funny bone or two. Im sure we would be less stressed out!!!!:ok:

Took a few shots a few times but the young ladies never seem to get it over at tower!

[thangiah]

THE RAGE
Thank you very much. I fully agree with you and I'll not just drop the matter but forget it as well.
We'll use this forum to improve our service.
Please pay us a visit at our work place (Subang ATCC) any time, better unoffically. Even better with no Bosses. All we need is the front line people. This will go a long way in appreciating and understanding each others problem.

Talking about humour it reminds of something that really took place in the old ATCC. The inter com between Lumpur Sector 1 and Bangkok Sector 5 was intermittent. So the lady controller at Bangkok Sector 5 complained to the guy at Lumpur Sector 1, "Lumpur,Lumpur you are coming in and out, in and out". The guy from Lumpur responded by saying, I'm not complaining.

[flightleader]

QUOTE=flightleader :However,your future comments will be read with an open mind.Cheers.[/QUOTE]

No harm done.:)

I was asked what heading I prefered when airbourne 14L for weather deviation near AGOSA sometimes back.I couldn't do that as I can't see what's was behind me. Just wonder if you ATClers aware that we can't see anything more than 45 degrees either side from present heading.

[veloo maniam]

I don't think that most ATClers are aware about this 45deg vision on either side.Perhaps the ATCler was being pro-active in advising u earlier but thanks for the info. I'll pass it on to all concerned.It is definitely a good piece of info:ok:

[pecyamfa]

Hi veloo maniam,

Oh, but I believe it was mentioned somewhere the present radar is already more than 10 years old, so is it still reliable to function accordingly. Of course new monitors do help too but for how long more?? Btw, Tks for the reply.

Hi Veloo maniam,

You mean the radar at Bukit Subang is down. If I recall it caught fire in 1994 rite? And now its down again. So who are we relying on then?

[flightleader]

Yeah,he is definately trying to be helpful.Here is a link to show how most weather radars look like in the plane.

http://www.eu-flysafe.org/EU-Flysafe_Public/Project/Aviation-Hazards/Weather/current-systems/mainColumnParagraphs/01/image/weather.jpg



[]

[veloo maniam]

Thanks FL..good pix.
Hi pecyamfa...we r now relying on the Genting Radar. the Bt.Subang acts as a back-up.If Genting fails..then Appraoch will depend on the KLIA Radar and one more called the TRAD(Transportable Radar based at KLIA also). Not much of a problem for approach but very problematic for Area CTLers( we may have to use slot times).Our main problem with Genting is not so much of a maintenance one but more so based on nature i.e ligtning strikes.Just FYI the Genting is also linked with the Langkawi and Johore Radars.:ok:

[pecyamfa]

Thanks FL..good pix.
Hi pecyamfa...we r now relying on the Genting Radar. the Bt.Subang acts as a back-up.If Genting fails..then Appraoch will depend on the KLIA Radar and one more called the TRAD(Transportable Radar based at KLIA also). Not much of a problem for approach but very problematic for Area CTLers( we may have to use slot times).Our main problem with Genting is not so much of a maintenance one but more so based on nature i.e ligtning strikes.Just FYI the Genting is also linked with the Langkawi and Johore Radars.:ok:

So when R we expecting the backup to come back?

[veloo maniam]

Absolutely no idea . I believe that spares have to be ordered and this takes time..time..time...time..time...time...oops sorry...tape stuck.:ok:

[pecyamfa]

Hi,

Is the SSR interrogator frequency fixed at 1030 MHz, is there any system that operates at 1029, 1031, 1032 Mhz, etc. What will happen if it does?

[flightleader]

Thumbs up again for ATClers! This time in shorterning the take off clearence by moving the instruction to call 119.45 to Ground 121.65 and into ATIS.Good job.

Now ,can we do the similar to taxy clearences? It is common to receive taxy clearence as "Cleared taxy onto F5,F,B8,B,B5,A,holding point 14L,hold short B".Can we do it like:" Cleared taxy onto F5,F,hold short B"? Perhaps the clearence could just state what is 'cleared' and drop those 'expected' taxy intruction. I find that if apron controller issue the whole taxy clearence than there is chance of confussion or conflict when change over to 121.65 when approaching B where another taxy clearence will be issued. Can we just get what is cleared until we are reaching the clearence limit point then switch over and get the subsequent clearences?

[veloo maniam]

Hi Pecyamfa..as far as I can recall 1030 is fixed meaning u can't alter it on ground. The acft will respond on 1090. However under ADS-B the ground system can also transmit on 1090. I am not sure whether this freq can be altered. Will look into it.
FL..your suggesstion regarding KLIA taxy clrce has been forwarded to the person concerned.:ok:

[pecyamfa]

Absolutely no idea . I believe that spares have to be ordered and this takes time..time..time...time..time...time...oops sorry...tape stuck.:ok:

Is the Subang radar still down? Don't they do regular maintaenance fro troubleshooting??

[veloo maniam]

Yep..Subang Radar still down(Thompson Radar).Awaiting s....p...a....r....e....p.......a.........r..........t...... .........s..............:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi Flyers....I need a link whereby I can compare IAS and G/Speed accurately. We seem to push down acft on Cruise and Descend much earlier. The chart that we depend on now maybe a bit outdated. Tq for your effort.:ok:

[flightleader]

Veloo,

Instead of trying to derive a relation between IAS and GSpeed,why not just instruct planes to fly a given GSpeed? I would say 99% of a/c that operate at KLIA do have Gspeed indication in the cockpit readily,normally on the same instrument with IAS.

Furthermore,given a fixed IAS,planes from direction will have very different GSpeed due to wind direction.Wind strengh and direction also varies in altitude.As the a/c decent with a fix IAS,its Gspeed changes as wind varies.the Gspeed will change when the a/c turn its heading.IAS has no meaning when the a/c is above FL250,making it difficult for you guys.

I believe for ATClers,Distance to go and GSpeed will be the best sequence planning game plan.For the pilots,we can just adjust a knob to get the GSpeed.I've been in TMA where ATC give GSpeed requirement.

[veloo maniam]

FL..tq fy sugestion.Point noted.Currently discussing with some of my colleagues.I'll get back sometime later.:ok:

[pecyamfa]

Yep..Subang Radar still down(Thompson Radar).Awaiting s....p...a....r....e....p.......a.........r..........t...... .........s..............:ok:

Has the spares a......r.........r...........i...............v.............. ..e.............d????? Any plans to replace it.?

[veloo maniam]

Hi Pec...yes..the spares for the back-up has arrived..God knows from where..even then it was bcos of the timely intervention of the Director General of DCA himself.:ok:

[deck11]

fly groundspeed? must be an Ace...throttles will be spooling up & down..ull be just too busy to fly after having to adjust ur speed accordingly....descend 270knots leave level now...lets say FL350...what would be your g/s then...are you going to maintain the given g/s at FL350 till FL150?

[veloo maniam]

Hi Deck II...I have personally used G/Speed reductions to achieve the desired result by requesting pilots to reduce g/speed above F280. I know that above F260 u guys are already on Mach No.techniques. Our Flow Control restrictions start about 100nm from KLIA.Hence when we say leave level now(F350 descend FL150 Speed 270kts...we expect u guys to descend on your normal profile from F350 but on passing say F260 and below the speed is to be 270kts(IAS). U may have your own reservations about g/speed reductions but there have been many occasions where g/speed reductions have helped the ATClers.Remember...the descent speed is to be achieved on passing F260 and below.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi Aviators...I would like to bring along some young blood (New Radar ATClers) to visit a flight simulator whereby one can be shown Holding procedures/weather deviations/turbulence/speed controls/Top of Descent procedures etc. What we really would like our ATClers to see is the workload during bad weather outside and inside Lumpur TMA. Whom can I contact? I realize that this is a tough request but a visit and a briefing will be definitely a win-win for both sides. Hope to be linked to the correct person.:ok:

[The Rage]

Helllo there,

Well it could be arranged, no probs really, but it would have to be only 1 person at a time, as there's limited seating space in the sim when its flying. Will call you soon.

[veloo maniam]

Tks Rage for your effort..will wait. Any other support from others?

[Brianigham]

:ok: flightleader.

The GS is a very useful way to bring us in when required or desired. Seen this at "all longitudes".

And you're right though deck11, he is an ace,:D however no yoda insights required to fly gs. Its just another way of metering movement. I refer to and use GS everyday.

Curious though......about the throttle movement thingy. Which aircraft and why?

[babyboeing400]

would really appreciate it very much if the guys in charge of ATIS in ATC KUL can update the ATIS on time..updating of the ATIS has always been late by at least 10 minutes..sometimes even 15 minutes..e.g I can get the 0730Z wx only at 0745Z..it defeats the name of the timing itself,might as well put it as 0745Z..This doesn't happen at other International Airports..hope that whoever is concerned can look into this matter seriously..Quite a few pilots that i've flown with are already complaining about the same thing..

[veloo maniam]

Current procedures....MET Dept at KLIA sends METAR to Tower within a period of 5-6mins. Only then KLIA Tower updates wx data and by the time it hits the air, 10mins is gone. How do they do it overseas? Any better suggestions?:ok:

[ACMS]

Hey guys, great to see this thread, even if I have come in here over 1 year late.
Can I add my 2 cents worth?
I work for Cx on the 777 and come to KLIA and PEN fairly often.
-Can ground stop using those damn taxi route codes and just tell us where to taxi please. Going heads down after landing to read the Jepp book is not a good idea, even if we have a pretty good idea of what to expect. We don't always get told our gate by Cx before we land. ( although 9 times out of 10 it's C37 )
-Stop telling me to hold short of taxyway B when I'm only 20 feet from it!!
The other day a controller said "hold short of present position" :hmm: LOL
-A digital atis would be nice. ( i think you've covered this before )
I totally agree with all other posts about the KL FIR.
Keep up the good work.
cheers

[The Rage]

I totally agree with ACMS. Im a regular out of KLIA and till today i still cant get the dam standard taxi routings right. I can see the prob's you guys have to deal with. As for the hold short, i think most controllers are aware that we rather be told earlier, that way we can regulate our speed while changing over to the other guy and hopefully get onwards clearence before the plane comes to a stop. I believe that there are a few trainees there, but they should be taught to be more pro active with the times rather than just being very procedural. And it will help if they pop their heads up and over to see whats actually happenin outside before saying anything.

But over all there has been loads of improvements around. :ok:

[Dave The Snail]

Veloo

I am working with some folk at MAHB (have been for nearly 2 years now) and visiting KL again shortly. On my initial visit, I was able to gain a soft copy of the MATS for KLIA to aid my project with MAHB. I am wanting to know where I can get an updated soft copy so I can refer to it when I visit again at the end of March. A search of all the local web sites come up short. Has it been modified/updated much over the past 18 months?

Dave The Snail

[babyboeing400]

veloo maniam,frankly i do not know how do they do it overseas..but if they can do it,why not KUL? :) there should be lots of room for improvement in setting up the ATIS on time...or the very least..within 5 minutes of the time intended..