R/T status in KL FIR

[lesenterbang]

Current procedures....MET Dept at KLIA sends METAR to Tower within a period of 5-6mins. Only then KLIA Tower updates wx data and by the time it hits the air, 10mins is gone.

For a start, I'd suggest they send the data by electronic means rather than by foot........:ugh:

[Virtual Reality]

1. Request Met office to submit the latest weather 10 mins before.
2. Any budget for DATIS under RMK-9 at all ???:ugh:
(Maybe you guys need to invite 'KJ' to Subang ATCC for a friendly football match with his MyTeam and tell him about this .......):}

[veloo maniam]

Hi Aviators..I sincerely believe the KLIA guys are trying their best in being pro-active in whatever they are supposed to do. The points regarding the taxy procedures and weather updates have been passed on to the correct guys.Expect improvements.Yep u guys are right..there is on-going trainings currently.
Dave the snail...call me on 019-2316519 and I will pass u a number whom I believe can be helpful to u.:ok:

[Dave The Snail]

Thanks Veloo

I have received an email back from a contact in KL and should get an updated copy soon. I'll be there in a couple of weeks and am looking forward o the KL Hilton once more.

[he1iaviator]

Just listening to Subang Ground it seems that in about 40% of cases ATC have no knowledge of a flighplan when an aircraft requests start clearance. Can't something be done to improve on this? It seems that the fax system is not very efficient. Is there any plan to introduce on-line filing as done in some other countries?

[veloo maniam]

Hi Heliaviator, yes I am aware of this on-going problem as I do work once in a month in Subang Tower. The problem is that the AIS has been closed at SBG.The AIS problem has been shifted to the Tower.Eversince then aircraft operators have been faxing directly to the tower. Once the Tower receives a copy, it then faxes back to the ATCC across the road. During off peak hours, tower controllers themselves will enter the data into the system directly in the Tower. However during busy moments, the fpls are refaxed to ATCC. The problem we face at the tower is this: Choppers ETD is 7.30am FPL is faxed to the Tower at 7.25am. Pilot calls for startup at 7.35am. No clearence available because FIS has no details whatsoever( reason: FPL has not been entered into the system yet). I am not saying that this is the case ALL of the time but ground-handlers too must be wise to fax these copies early. The other thing is that FPLS are hand written. Sometimes I wonder whether a pilot has filed the FPL or a doctor.The handwriting is so horrible. Why can't FPLS be typed by your ground handlers? My suggestion is fax it early by at least an hour and then counter check with the tower 15 mins before your ETD.This is being pro-active on your part.Some operators fax it directly to the ATCC. If it is not entered into the system, then Tower will definitely will not have the details.:ok:

[he1iaviator]

Hi Veloo, thanks for your answer.Some of us poor chopper guys don't have handling agents, so we have to do everything ourselves, and as you know all those Datuks and Tungkus always change their mind at the last minute, so we have to rush around getting the aircraft ready as well as doing the paperwork! Anyway, is it better to send the fax (mine are always beautifully printed :} ) to both the tower and ATCC just to be sure?
Presumably with an Internet filing system the plan is entered into the system automatically saving all these problems?
On another related subject; on a VFR flight plan ATC seem to require the EET for every kampung along the way to be included on the flight plan. This does seem a bit Over-The-Top especially when you consider the on an IFR plan only FIR boundary ETEs are required. Is this really necessary? If is really is necessary where are all the required reporting points published?
Keep up the good work!

[veloo maniam]

Hi Heliaviator....what u can probably do to speed up things is that as soon as u fax to both Tower n ATCC, give them a call on the direct line n see whether they have received your copy. Next tell them u will call for startup at xxxx time and appreciate ATC soon. Mind u, not all tower ctlers will want to help u out if they are busy especially in the mornings. One SZB operator has taken up this advise and seems to be happy that their clearences are on time.It may work but try it out. E-filing for FPLs ...have to send DCA officers to Income tax for trainining.I will talk to the DCA Manager for SZB Tower and see how this on-going problem can be solved for u guys.:ok:

[BNEHKG9]

Hi There,
I am a pilot for a major Asian carrier and have just returned from a trip to KL and would like to make some comments on the quality of the atc.
Lumpur Radar often leaves aircraft very high on their descent. This problem has improved a lot since the implementation of uni-directional routes but aircraft are still left high on descent on a regular basis. For example, the other day we were left about 13000ft higher than our normal descent profile.
You guys must also to appreciate that doing something like creating a holding pattern around an intersection that isn’t in our route takes a little bit of time to locate and program into the Flight Management Computer. Lumpur Radar can’t expect to give us instructions to hold like this within 2 to 3 miles of the waypoint and expect us to be able to comply with it.
Having said that the subsequent frequency (Lumpur Director I think) was very helpful and understanding. He asked us if we could do things instead of just telling us.
From my understanding, the problems all came from bad weather passing over the airfield and also a runway change, so obviously things were very busy with controllers having a lot to think about. However, this must happen on a daily basis and anyone would’ve thought that you guys would be able to get used to it.
Sorry if I seem harsh, just being honest
cheers

[veloo maniam]

hi BNEHKG9...tq for your input. Wud appreciate if u cud kindly let me know the actual holding instruction (i.e which point were u told to hold?) Sorry I realize u might have 4gotten but its helpful for me to answer u accurately. Yeap u r right about holding higher than expected due to wx devaitions n runway changes.During this moments a lot of instructions r going on between the Sector Radar Ctler and the Flow Ctler (mind u...this instructions change by the minute at times due to traffic changes from other sectors). This cud be the reason for holding instructions 2 to 3 miles from a particular waypoint though this is not appropriate to u guys.No you r not harsh but welcome to give us your inputs so that we can improve.Hope to hear from u soon.:ok:

[BNEHKG9]

Hi There,
From memory, the point was PULIP.

I also have a few more points to add as i flew out of KL again recently and
suffered long delays for departure. It was around 45 minutes from pushback to takeoff on runway 14L. There were 5-6 aircraft ahead of us, and 3-4 planes landed, but even when planes were not landing, it was 4 minutes between departures! Weather was CAVOK!
We were told that it was due to calibration aircraft on runway 14R, which sounds ridiculous to me as the other runway is miles away and the weather was good anyway! At other airports they do calibration very early morning before things get busy, and not mid-morning. It was all rather silly.
Thanks again

[Brianigham]

Aaaah! That you must have been the 777, five planes ahead of us. Gee that was a long taxi wasn't it.

I think I spent about 55 mins on the ground. Good thing I had the fuel to burn.

To make things a little more interesting, At destination, we were held up as well, due to ILS calibration. Thats at a different country Veloo:) .

Its the first time though that I have had this kinda delay here in WMKK.

Probably not the best time to calibrate......but I am sure they have their reasons.

[veloo maniam]

Hi guys...yeap the calibration guys can pose a lot of delays. Normally approach is aware of their schedules. I have to check on this further and get back to you guys especially the part with regards to the schedules. I think if the Approach and Calibration guys can solve it by agreeing on some acceptable time schedules like non-peak hours.
PULIP..not surprised..although flow control gives first preference to arrivals from the east, there r times where runway changes and weather can be a factor in last minute holding instructions. It cud also be to last minute decisions by Sector/Approach or Flow Control if someone either from the north or south have deviated due weather which might have affected the approach sequence of your flight. I hope I am right about this.:ok:

[The Rage]

Maybe the calibrator can try at nights between 2-5 in the mornings, instead of coming into office at 9, then having breakfast and finally taking off at 10 to be smack inthe middle of everyone else. I think for calibration in KLIA it shouldnt be a 9-5 job for them.:ugh:

And on a second note, could you please have a word with LGK and get them to fix their anemometer. Was there a few nights back and the tower was giving me winds at 6 kts when my IRS on short finals was indicating 17kts headwind. Queried them and was told its from the metar as the anemometer was u/s. On the take off after rotation it was a tail wind of 14kts, as its a 1 way in, 1 way out for us. The tailwind limits on most jets are 15kts.:uhoh:

[veloo maniam]

Hi all...found out that the calibrator guys are on a very very tight schedule. Only two pilots who have to cover the whole of malaysias airports. Coupled with heavy equipment for calibration they carry limited fuel, hence the first preference to calibration aircraft. Scheduling is decided by them. We'll see whether we can come to a compromise later.
We'll relay anemometer problems to LGK.

[lesenterbang]

Are we talking about the morning of April the 2nd?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/paparadzi/Scenery/2AprQueue.jpg

[GlueBall]

BNEHKG9 . . . at your company, are you receiving less pay when taxiing, or when waiting in line? :rolleyes:

[geh065]

Thats not the point. Is pay all that matters to some people? How about the cost of sitting there burning fuel, delaying passengers and just being fustrated at not going anywhere.

[lesenterbang]

And remember that with more fuel being burnt on the ground, the less fuel you will have on arrival. Although mostly insignificant, it could meant landing, diversion or even flameout...

Talking about money, more fuel burnoff = less company profit = less chance of bonus.:ugh:

[GlueBall]

geh065: ". . . How about the cost of sitting there burning fuel, delaying passengers and just being fustrated at not going anywhere."

Dude, If I'd have to worry about that every time I fly I'd be in an insane asylum. Especially at congested airports, these circumstances must be built into your expectations otherwise you'll be living a life of quiet desperation. :eek:

[geh065]

Most controllers will vote to award CPA pilots the Gold Medal for THE MOST COMPLAINT toward ATC

Around Asia this is certianly true. I have heard this from several ATC friends, however has anyone wondered why this is? I admit in some cases it is because the pilots are just cranky old farts however more often than not it is because we are an international airline with very high standards (In general - and ICAO agrees with this, rating us in the top 3 airlines in the world for our operations). We see things in many of these Asian countries (and elsewhere) that we simply see as being substandard and many guys feel the need to speak out about it. Cathay gets heavily involved in regional ATC conferences and is respected and consulted for their opinions. I have heard managers say that they sometimes feel they are trying to single-handedly improve ATC standards in the entire region.

I agree that from the pilots side, often they are a bit impatient and can sometimes voice their opinions in a different way, but usually there is reason behind the comments they make. Other airlines must put up with perceived mediocrity. We do not.

[geh065]

Zessee,

I do not have a big problem with the english standards. That is not what I am talking about. I realise that in many countries around the world where english is not a main language it can be difficult to expect high standards, that is very understandable, and as you comment we are not perfect in CX either. I agree 100%. I also admit that I cannot speak a single word of your language, although fortunately for me ICAO does not say I have to. English is the main ICAO language and certainly around these parts of the world there is an expectation that we must speak it.

However as far as I know, nowhere did I mention the english standards. Sorry if I gave you the impression I was complaining about it. I was not. Personally I am very tolerant of the english standards from ATC until the point at which safety is compromised which I have not seen very often, but yes I have seen (Not in KUL).

I was referring to your comment about CX pilots 'complaining'. You seem to imply that we just complain for the hell of it. At Cathay we strive for excellence. We may not always acheive it but we strive for it. The company requires it from their pilots and we expect it from the people we come across in our day to day jobs, from cabin crew, to loading staff, engineering and ATC. If there is something that we see as a problem, many of us wil voice our opinions. You can choose to ignore what we say and simply continue as before, but there are some people out there which may want to improve and may not even realise that there is a better way to do things. If no-one complains then how can things improve? Isn't that why hotels and restaurants have guest comment cards? - so opinions (good and bad) can be taken, and improvements made?

I realise that as an ATCO there are many things which are beyond your control, and things which controllers are responsible for may sometimes be the way they are due to the training they have had. This is not their fault but the fault of the system. Air Safety Reports are not things which CX have created...they are a recognised way of reporting safety related issues. I know that in Asia, CX files probably more than anyone. Is ATC purposely putting CX planes in more safety compromising positions that other aircraft? Of course not....it is just that many other pilots in Asia are happy to just do as they are told. Some I bet do not even recognise a safety issue when they are contronted with one.

Unless you recognise your system as perfect, there are improvements to be made everywhere in the world, even with our own operation which is constantly being refined. However without feedback how can you ever expect to get the full picture? CX gives lots of feedback and it should be seen as a good thing and not a pain.

[Virtual Reality]

Well said geh065:D , unfortunately, some people just refuse to accept positive criticism, learn, and improve themself ..............:ugh:

[jetrat]

common guys,.......
anyways...i have to say when it comes to controlling the flow on the ground, i personally find hkg to be doing it quite well. i remember mentioning it to you before velloo, when we met up ages ago, about only allowing the flights to call delivery for clearance when they are fully ready for pushback.
and only then, after receiving clearance, to pass them on to the ramp controllers. thereby reducing the "wastage" or last minute delays caused by the last minute passenger changes etc. these are precious minutes that collectively add up to quite a bit at the end of the day.
and then there's the not so popular choice of keeping them at the gates until the Q at the parallel taxiway reduces to ....let's say not mre than 5 a/crafts.....and keeping that number as constant as possible. cos in the end.....it's only the delay of the pushback....but no difference in the time the aircraft arrives at its' destination....therefore only a psychological loss due to delays...but REaL savings where fuel, pollution and enviroment is concerned.
oh the good ol subang.....:=

[veloo maniam]

The ATC Union would like to thank all MAPA members who attended the briefing by KUL ATC on Flow Control Management in Lumpur TMA. It was indeed an eye opener for both parties. We take this opportunity to thank the MAPA Committee for organising such a gathering at MUM's Place Damansara Perdana. These briefings are available on a adhoc basis to whoever is interested.The only condition is that it has to be informal.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi aviators...for the benefit of some who still have some queries about the departures to the east via APAKI or PADLI.
For R14 departures:
The routing is via G584 Y336 PADLI to the FIR BDY and then to the respective Airway (eg BUVAL L629 DOLOX M771/IDSEL M758/KETOD M761 etc).
For R32 departures:
The routing is via W533 G582 APAKI to the FIR BDY and then to the respective Airways (same as above).
The FL allocation for departures to East Msia is on a first come first served basis whereby three levels are offered i.e F330/290/270 (as agreed upon with SIN ATC. Once these three FL's have been given, the next immediate three flights will be offered the same FL's with a ten min separation between each.
Inbound for R14
Routing is via APAKI G582 PIBOS KIDOT and follow the STAR or as directed by Approach.
If via TAXUL then proceed to PIBOS KIDOT and follow the STAR or as directed by Approach.
Inbound for R32Routing is via PADLI Y336 ISTAN NIPAR and follow STAR or as directed by Approach.
If via TAXUL then proceed to PIBOS NIPAR and follow STAR or as directed by Approach.
I hope this simple briefing will be helpful to some who are still queriing me over the phone.:ok:

[ACMS]

veloo maniam: gidday again:ok:
I thought Lumpur ground we not going to use those damn annoying coded routes? Throw em out the window would ya?

Still love flying through KL to Pen, fun trip.

Keep up the good work.

[veloo maniam]

Hi ACMS....talk is that KLIA is in the process of revamping the whole taxying routing system. They will be fine tuning the taxy routes. This was one of the points highlighted during the recent ATC-MAPA dialogue. Will keep u guys updated on that.Happy flying:ok:

[ACMS]

By all means have a "plan" in mind and publish a route map of arrival and dept taxi routes like they do in Seoul and Narita for the crew to check so we have an idea of what to expect. BUT verbally tell the crew where to taxi so we don't have to go heads down fumbling in the dark to find C37 14L and then read it.
Much easier to say "Taxi via Alpha and Hotel to bay C37".
Thanks

[veloo maniam]

Hi aviators..just a question which was posed by a fellow controller.
Do u guys include night landings without runway lights in your simulator sessions?:ok:

[cressidom]

LOOK MA NO LIGHTS !!! :) sure they can land with out lights - JUST ONCE ONLY!:D


on another subject
Veloo....has ATC fixed the flight plan issues ? Online submissions near the corner I hope ?

Cheers
Dom

[veloo maniam]

Hi Dom..when it comes to on-line FPLning...we r still OFFLINE...I don't see any corners ..nope..not even the horizon yet. Still the old fashion way. FAX baby FAX..oops sorry..we didn't recieve any from u. Can u send again????

[jetrat]

velloo......

not that i remember.

[veloo maniam]

Yeap Jetrat..guessed as much. Pondered over the Trengganu situation where the rwy lights were off. A FK50 had to RTB when he was about 15NM from touchdown. The question is would the acft be able to land with it's own headlights in an emergency? question may sound a bit silly but wondering if it could be done.:ok:

[ssangyongs]

not worth the risk, and the wrath of ATC. But it surely please the company. can save them thousands and reputation.

[flightleader]

Veloo,

We'll use the North-South highway if we have to in an emergency. But with pax and fuel and no emergency,RTB is much better to crash,die and be blamed as an idiot!

Without the approach light is still acceptable under most good weather conditions but no runway lights is not a good idea.There is no clear identification of the runway edge and thus the landing visual perceptions for runway lenght and height above runway are all gone.:)

[veloo maniam]

Ok guys tq very much at least I know what to expect from your side.:ok:

[Virtual Reality]

Much better to use 'pelita ayam' or 'gooseneck' to replace runway lights .... :D

Oppps ....... TGG is too windy for that ...:ugh:

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers..how do u guys keep yourself healthy for medical checks. Some Ctlers drink coconut water and chew some spices.I dont know how it helps but what about you guys?:ok:

[ACMS]

ahhhhhhh let me see...................exercise and diet sound good.

not saying I'm a fantastic example of the human body but there is only one way to keep fit.

You are what you eat.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

There u r guys..the cabinet has now approved SZB as hub no.2 for Firefly.
I believe they will start domestic and eventually international from SZB. Probably a 737 to Cebu or some exoctic place in the Phillipines would do good for them. ATClers r looking forward to Firefly operating international from SZB.Welcome mate.cuti cuti controller:ok:

[GTR-34]

Hi veloo,

I flew in couple of days ago after a long long time..any idea why Klia Rwy 14R so bumpy 3/4 way down right around the aircraft rotation area. Any complains so far? Hope its not like the Jln Duta Courts workmanship...it used to be so smooth and nice..

[veloo maniam]

Hi GTR-34..have to check it out with my colleagues over there. will get back to u later..in the meantime kindly inform the horse riders to 14R..they might appreciate present conditions.:ok:

[ssangyongs]

veloo dont u think air asia will go mad because they tried to use SZB 2 years ago and government reject their request although they offered to finance half of the cost to refurbish Terminal 3.

Because fuel cost is evil, taxiing from LCCT to 32 R and 32 L gonna cost them a tonne of the precious commodity, not including long queue especially when the DCA guy doing calibration works. Compare SZB runway and T3, distance is not an issue.

Just my thought...


anyway check you pm.

[EY777]

I called that Poetic Justice :}

Since AK quickly "suggested" that Firefly to take over FAX operations & soon afterwards immediately 'abused' & 'reused' the AOC for their International Long Haul flights, I don't see why they need to cry foul! :rolleyes:

I guessed this is also a 'punishment' for them when everybody was inconvenienced with their less than satisfactory service in FAX.The latest being the grounding of all their F50's! :} Yup...all 7 of them!! :ugh:

Best leave things to the proffesionals AK ..... ;)

[veloo maniam]

Hi Flyers...AirAsia is well established.Whether they fly from KLIA or Timbuktu they already know how to make money.they have set standards and are continuing to do so.Firefly has just started to blink.I believe it is in their vision to shine. They definitely need to fly jets to make money. Turboprops will never allow them to rake in the RM. We help them by giving direct tracks on a daily basis eg VPG-VKN, VPG-VKT and vice versa etc. This constitutes to definite savings. Whether this 'drop in the ocean" by ATC will ever help we are not sure but it is entirely their vision and accountability to make money. the only problem we foresee is the congestion SZB will have to face especially with the numerous flying schools already established. There is going to be too much holding for this poor guys and with AVGAS skyrocketing it will be good for all of them to move out of SZB. With the limited Area of Responsibility given to SZB ADR(aerodrome control) 1500ft and 5nm radius, it is going to be tough to put everyone in. Now with limited bays and too many hangars it is going to be tough too for MAB. Let's wait n see how things will move on in SZB.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi ssangyongs kindly call me 019-2316519.tq

[cressidom]

Hi Veloo...and the rest, whatever the governments decision, it's a done deal, my concern is still the facilities in SZB are below PAR at the moment..overgrown grass, taxi way lights & edge lights burnt out,missing-broken...as veloo mentioned..the mushrooming of flying schools and hangars-wow..SZB is now prime real estate.There's more....PETRONAS AVIATION...will not be able to cope when Ffly and others start coming to szb.We're already experiencing the 'problem' of not enough bowser and manpower..especially that the 'ground hydrant' refuelling is limited to the cargo apron.Then there's the facility at terminal 3...'What facility' ? restaurants need a re-work.Security will need more manpower...PARKING,etc.etc.
More flights will mean more pax traffic movement...and so the scenario goes.

my 50 cents worth.
tks

[veloo maniam]

hi Cress...whatever problems u have highlighted cannot be denied. However our Govt is a rich one. RM is never a problem for us. If 100mil can be pumped overnite for the KL floods, reviving SZB is a drop in the ocean man.Just wait n see how SZB is going to be revived.MOT has everything covered brother...why we might even have a LCCT in SZB soon.MALAYSIA BOLIH PAK!Restaurants?..just observe how the kachang putih seller is doing a roaring biz everyday...with only Berjaya around.:ok:

[cressidom]

Hi Veloo...rite on man. !!
' MALAYSIA BOLIH PAK!Restaurants?..just observe how the kachang putih seller is doing a roaring biz everyday...with only Berjaya around.'I know too..that guy is from Pakistan I think...always got a BIG SMILE :E for everyone

[ssangyongs]

veloo i'll call you someday after wednesday i'm quite occupied by now.

A question:

Which tower KUL tracon situated? Main tower or airside tower near cargo and LCC?

You're right man rm100 million is nothing for government. Chan Kong Choi sign the check today, tomorrow rm100 million will be cleared by bank/treasury. Plus what i'm seeing now everything about AK and MH or MAHB will get ministry highest priority.

ATCers are you going to get extra salary(civil servant pay rise) from next month?

[veloo maniam]

Hi ssangyongs...tracon is as follows:
from my colleague at KLIA it depends on where the tfc is. If for eg facing the main tower even though at satellite, it will be controlled by main twr. It also includes tfc at the Main Terminal Bldg. However tfc at satellite plus LCCT plus cargo is controlled by apron twr, the smaller or shorter one. Both the towers have surface movement radars (SMR). Yep my friend, we r getting new pay rise in July. Across the board take home additional RM500-1000 depending on category(middle income group) Not bad for civil service. The notion that higher pay means better or harder they will work doesnt hold water because what matters is the equipment that is avbl at the moment. One can take home a fat pay but if the computer sys that is being used to deliver the service is kaput, what can the civil servant do? Think about that. If an ATCler has to tx three times to get a message across then it is not the civil servant but the radio that needs to be changed, not repaired or modified.Will wait for yr call.:ok:

[ssangyongs]

MAS purchased 20 ATRs 72 for Firefly. what do you all think? Instead of leasing jets they choose to go turboprop way...

[veloo maniam]

Will they be using the ATR's for international destinations?:ok:

[ssangyongs]

maybe. 20 planes for domestic operation seems to much for me. It's etops 120 certified aircraft.

from bases in Penang, KK, JB, Subang. Maybe to near neighbouring countries destination. From KK maybe to Kalimantan and Mindanao.

From Subang to most part of Malaysia plus batam, palembang, medan, padang and acheh.

From Penang to medan, maybe the furthest to KK

Just an amateur analysis by me.

[veloo maniam]

Hi ssangyongs..wish them all the best.hope their presence at SZB will create an impact in the aviation circle.love to see SZB busy again.:ok:

[roxar]

hi,
SZB going to be bz from now..
it must be hard for SFC and EFC student to play around the cct..
:ugh:

[ssangyongs]

Hi veloo,

I flew in couple of days ago after a long long time..any idea why Klia Rwy 14R so bumpy 3/4 way down right around the aircraft rotation area. Any complains so far? Hope its not like the Jln Duta Courts workmanship...it used to be so smooth and nice..

According to a friend (credit to him)

"the 1/4 part of the 14R..that is a SOALAN cepumas...http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/lol.gif the contractor for the upgrading work is still doing their study on it....but what i can say that the bumpiness is due to the different material compared to the existing runway pavement...some more...the grooving on the new part has yet to be carry out..."

[flightleader]

Veloo,
Some fun for you.
http://home.online.no/~chainly/JFKGround.mp3

Sure admire his attitude.

[WiraMelayu]

Ya Veloo, love to see SZB buzzing again. I really miss Batu Arang, Caledonian and Kay Ell and of course some dubiously halal chow at Kampung Subang!:)

[veloo maniam]

Firefly will soon be buzzing around at SZB.The question is whether MAB is prepared with its bays.Now that the bays seemed to be taken over by hangars where will Firefly park its ATR72's? Rumour is that they will be utilizing Hangar 1. Can anyone confirm this. ATC would like to know more of Firefly's plans at SZB so that some form of smooth flow can be worked out.Remember u r going to use SZB as a hub so it will be good that some form of meetings begin to roll. Dont wait for the last minute syndrome or the usual 'we'll cross the bridge when we come to it'.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

What is your opinion about Search n Rescue in Malaysia? :ok:

[flightleader]

I am assuming the recent Nuri crash had got you thinking.

By looking at the previous crashes,most of it happened at places with thick forest remote area like interior Sarawak, etc. Nuri does not carry any electronic signaling device plus its colour is meant to blend in with the forest. Thus, the search and rescue is harder than a civilian case. But In this country, There is just too little civilian crashes to actually gauge the efficiency of the SAR team.The one case I can remember is the trainer that went down at Penang. I believe the fisherman got to the cadet pilot 1st.

IMHO, funding(the lack of it) is biggest issue here.If this country wants to get up to the mark ( sure need that as the traffic had increased significantly), the government must be willing to spend this money,Instead of knee jerk action jumping into to buying new helicopters. On another hand, the Nuri fleet is also long overdue to be replaced.

[The Rage]

Well said flightleader,

On the other hand, the UK has a very good SAR team thats operated by the RAF. They have aircraft(westland helicopters, the same as our nuri's) stationed all over the country specifically for SAR, be it lost hikers,medivac, down aircraft or shipping accidents. Here we have so many different agencies having helicopters of their own (air force, army, police and bomba). But i dont know who would be the main agency responsible for SAR.

Question.
1.Who is overall responsible for SAR?

2. Is there a centralised SAR center? From there who gets despatched to the site first? Meaning, if there are police copters in the vicinity of the crash, would they be allowed to start the SAR or would they have to wait for some general in the air force to give the go ahead, or maybe the right ministry. Remember the JAL crash that killed 504 some years back! The yanks got to the crash site almost immediately but were not allowed to conduct SAR due to bereaucracy. Does this exsist here as well, if yes, then to what extend?

3. All traffic flying in the peninsular, would be under some kind of radar coverage or so, maybe down to a certain height. Would the radar not provide some clues to where it might be? Some years back the air force lost a skyhawk in the south china sea, they turned to Singapore, who provided them with some sort of last position, although the plane was never found (there were reasons to that) but it was tracked on radar.

Yes, must agree that the Nuri's (beautiful machines) are old, about time the air force replaced them. As for the emergency beacon on board, well its to be activated by the survivors. In this case, i guess if it wasnt activated then for those who know about this would have guess that the chances for survivors would have been slim. They could have very well been alive, maybe we got there to late.

[he1iaviator]

The first of the nice new Dauphins for the MMEA has arrived in the country this week. Maybe these will help with the SAR situation once they are operational.
I have not heard any reports about a Nuri or Mi17 helping with the rescue of survivors in any of the accidents that have happened with offshore helicopters over the last couple of years. Does anyone know if a SAR aircraft was even launched on those occasions?
It is rather sad if the Nuri's still do not carry a descent automatic Crash Position Indicator beacon. Most of the offshore helicopters carry several CPIs, including in the crew lifejackets, and nowadays those also transmit on 406Mhz so can be located by SARSAT. In theory these would make it possible to locate a missing aircraft even in hilly terrain.

[cressidom]

Sad case the Nuri, but as we are in boleh land, this will be a memory until the next incident and then they will jump again...and so on and so on...

SAR - Unless it's really in the sincerity of the Theme, no one gives a damn.
I think it's up to the civil operators to 'pool resources' rather then depend on 'government agencies'. If the civil folks can 'co-operate' and do it better than why not? Sure there's cost involved...but Cost versus Lives ????

Until another accident happens...(hope not)....Fly safe all.

Cheers
dom

[cressidom]

Heliaviator...i take it you fly for a local outfit ?

[pecyamfa]

Hi,

Is the Subang radar services down again? Understand there's a new radar at Kota Bahru airport.

[he1iaviator]

A dedicated SAR unit is taking shape at Subang. Things are looking up!
Sneak peek!
Maritim Malaysia 01
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z78/he1iaviator/Maritim%20Malaysia/MMEAMalaysia001.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z78/he1iaviator/Maritim%20Malaysia/MMEAMalaysia003.jpg

[cressidom]

Hi heliaviator..nice piccies...

I take it you work for Eurocopter...

cheers
Dom

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers....no more issues? either u guys are doing it right or we are.Let me humble myself here...yes u guys r right and we are.......:ok:

[pecyamfa]

Hi veloo maniam,

Is the Subang radar services down again? Understand there's a new radar at Kota Bahru airport. Is Senai also getting one too?

[Brianigham]

Hi VM,

Yeah!

Its been pretty quiet all of a sudden, for quite awhile.

Must be the ESOS and PMS thinghy at MH ( at least for the MH boys )

:ugh:

[veloo maniam]

Hi flyers...yes it has been quiet for awhile but things are sure moving...in the right direction for a chosen(frozen) few and wrong for the rest of the world.
Yes there is a new radar fixed at Newcastle (Kota Baru). we can now see u guys at IGARI(this is a great blessing for the ATClers.)
Subang Radar is functioning ok. No problem whatsoever. Our problem still is the readability at the ATCC, especially on 132.6 and 123.75 aprox 30-50NM N and NW of VKL. Somehow we are managing. Any Firefly guys on Pprune?:ok:

[Virtual Reality]

Hi Veloo,

I wonder whether there is any plan for D-ATIS & ACARS PDC be made available in KLIA under 9MP or govt never consider them at all?

Cheers

[pecyamfa]

Hi,

Tks for the updates, any plan to put a radar also at Senai? It'll be great to have one too.

[veloo maniam]

hello pecyamfa...yes there already exists a radar at Bukit Luncu, Johor. Just fyi, Approach into SIN(from Peninsular Msia) will be done by Johore Approach sometime in the very near future.Equipment are all set and ATClers are now being trained.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hi VR..the equipment mentioned by u may come in. It's up to the guys in the management team.Never forgotten nor cancelled in toto. Discussions are going on. Infact 2008 will see a total upgrading of ATC Radar in East Msia. In 2009 a lot of equipment software upgrading will be taking place at Subang ACC. So there u r my friend, a lot of goodies are on the way which will be good for both pilot and ATCler.:ok:

[pecyamfa]

Hi VM,

I thought the Lunchu is an en-route radar, can it function also an approach radar for Senai?

[Virtual Reality]

Hi VM,

Thank you for the speedy reply WRT DATIS & ACARS PDC. Apart from that, I tend to get very frustrated everytime flying in and out of KUL for various reasons. Among them are late in getting take-off clearance especially when you are in no 2 and above in sequence. I wonder why it takes more than 2 mins to let an aircraft taking off. Just imagine if you are no. 5 in sequence, easily 10 mins wasted at holding point. Having flown to various airports in Asia, Europe and North America, things like this seldom happen. LHR e.g only need 45 secs in between departures. HKG practices 60 secs in between departures.

As for the arrival sequence, why do you require 7 - 10 nm between traffic for arrival in KUL? Why not closer? Again I'm quoting HKG & LHR as examples, both airports practice RRSM, HKG practices 4-6 nm between aircrafts, speed control 180 kts till 8 nm for rwy 25 L/R, 150-160 kts till 6 nm for rwy 07 L/R and LHR 2.5-4 nm between aircrafts, speed 160 kts till 6 nm. I feel that this is quite efficient and able to optimise runway utilisation especially during peak hours.

When are you guys going to get rid of taxi coding instructions? Very annoying I think especially when KUL is not your home base.:ugh:

Thank you

[ssangyongs]

one quick update from HKG...the CDA now is discussing to further reduce the distance between planes from the current 6nm for a light plane following a heavy plane, and 5nm (9km) for a medium plane following a heavy plane, to just 4nm (7.4km), which is the standard for two heavy planes following one and another.

the move could save about 482,144 miles or about 1,800 flight hours per year, translating to between five and seven minutes for each flight.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Flyers..tq for the inputs. Points noted. I will pass on this pointers to the officers concerned. I totally agree with u guys that we need to fine tune some procedures. Air Traffic has difinitely increased and some sort of action needs to be taken. Just hang on. we'll get back to you.:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Pecyamfa..Lunchu is ready for approach control. Control will be done from SZB ACC. Equipment all leli. Only ATClers r undergoing training at the moment.:ok:

[flightleader]

Here is an issue Veloo,

AIP Supp 30/2007 refers, Speed Restriction.

"Cross KIKAL,DAKOR,SASRI,LAPIR,NIPAR,KIDOT--220kts"
"Cross BAXEL,GOMAS,KIMAR,PIMAS--180kts"(~ 17nm to touch down)
"160kts from 10nm until 4nm to touchdown":eek:

May I ask DCA and ATC, what is your point? Why do you want the arriving a/c to hang around in the TMA area longer than it should? :confused:

I ask this because this requirement would slow down the arriving a/c from too far out,it would make a queue to form if there is a string of arrival where everyone had to slow down from far as the guy in front is slow.Don't forget the localizer interception point in KUL is about 12nm to touch down.Ideally this is the point a/c starts to slow down from 210/220kts,or slowest be 180kts.But now we have to 180kts before turning to intercept the localizer!!
Now 160kts from 10nm to 4nm is really really bad!!! B737 had to have the gears down to fly that speed,B747,B777 can probably have gears up but hell lots of flap to maintain 160kts,A330 have to use a combination of flap with thrust for that speed. Additional fuel burn is incur as 160kts is NOT a speed to be maintain for such a long period. Of course, building up a queue for arrival would result in flight delays, are you all very eager to have frequent meeting with the transport minister? Or better still DCA wants to pay the airlines fuel bill??:ouch:

Please refer to other international airports speed restriction.They generally requires the a/c to maintain 180kts until 6nm or to reach 160kts by 4nm.

IMHO,no matter be it for sequencing for departure or arrival, the arriving should maintain high speed.If a slot is required,then ATC should vector or give speed intruction to others to creat the gap.

Come on,you guys can do better than that!

[llchew]

DCA and ATC came out with the speed restrictions because, from our dialogue sessions, we got the impression that a standardized speed would be great for everybody. Many pilots requested for them. As present the disparity in approach speeds are far too big. Just yesterday afternoon, I had a B734 at 135 knots at 6 miles finals 14L with another B734 still showing 270 knots at 12 miles finals 14L (he requested to maintain a higher speed as he was on the high side). Eventually did a side-step to 14R.
Back to the AIP Supplement. Before the AIP Supp came out, we looked at the speeds used at other airports.
• 250KIAS on passing 10000 is pretty much the standard;
• 220KIAS was selected as it represented a clean speed for most aircraft types;
• 190KIAS on turn to intercept the LLZ; and
• 170 KIAS from 10TD to 5TD.
A draft was submitted to MAS, Air Asia and SIA. All gave their comments. MAS requested 180/160KIAS instead of 190/170KIAS. We would assume 160 KIAS came about after all the factors have been considered, e.g. the different aircraft types and their peculiarities.
We realize that traffic is not going to be busy all the time. So we put in place “escape clauses”. When traffic permits, a "high speed" instruction will be issued by the en-route controller that allows the aircraft to disregard the 250KIAS restriction below 10000ft. If the Approach controller does not require the pilot to observe the speed restrictions on the STAR, he will issue a "no ATC speed restriction" clearance.
Keeping aircraft on high speed and vectoring when the need arises creates it’s share of problems – workload, increased RT especially for Rwy 14. The same controller will be assuming control of the aircraft from around FL200 all the way until established on finals. Throw in arrivals and departures from Subang, all under his area of responsibility.

Definitely welcomes suggestions on how to do better!

[veloo maniam]

Hello Flight Leader...tq for bringing up the arrival speed restrictions.U might or might not be aware that ATC had on two occassions met up with MH pilots on a adhoc basis. One was at the Kayu Restaurant and the other was at Mum's place. I do not know whether u were there but one thing is sure. It was a meeting beneficial for both sides. Now given the single rwy ops most of the time these days and with the tfc volume increasing by the day, speeds have to be regulated on a real time basis. we try our level best to absorb u guys. There are 4 shifts running the whole atc show thruout the month. As far as my shift is concered (shift D), we try our best NOT to hold u guys unless it is absolute necessity. Weather too hinders a perfect flow. Now this is all enroute traffic coming into the TMAs. My colleague Chew has answered well pertaining to speed controls. With single rwy ops there is definitely adjustments to your landing sequence because your colleague at the holding has to depart too. We are open to suggestions any time. To ask whether DCA would foot the airline fuel bill sounds harsh. It is not our intention to burn your fuel. It's all about SAFETY my friend. Of course atc skills differs on a individual basis. As Chew as said, suggestions are most welcome. We also try to improve and of course with the given limitations we try our best. Maybe our best is not good enough for you. Give us better options. It will be good if you could use your MAS intranet to highlight to the MAPA guys. U see, we have taken the trouble to meet you guys twice. That my friend is Proactiveness on our part. U have any better options? Call me. We'll sit down over a cup of teh tarik and see what we can come up with. Untill then...happy flying.:ok:

[Fair.Pilot]

Hi guys! Just did a flt to Kota Kinabalu and noticed that the DA(Decision Altitute) for ILS 02 is 440 feet. That's 430 feet above the runway. As an ILS Cat 1, shouldn't the DA be 210 feet? (200 ft above the runway)

Any comments?

[The Rage]

Reason for DA 440 at WBKK was due to the VOR hill which was sitiing slightly to the right of CL about a mile from touchdown. They are in the mids of leveling it and once the rwy extensions are done, then you could see a lower DA.

Hi Vello, how have You been? Well on the speed restrictions into kul, in sorry but it looks like the guys from management had their say again! 160kts at 10 miles is way too slow, any operator would tell you that. But input from management has always been to follow SOP, which shall be what the manufactures say, but of course if they are willing to pay for new procedures to these manufactures then these SOP's can be changed and in the long term save more money on the fuel burn then on some silly procedural updates from these manufactures!:ugh:

Anyway you guys are doing a good job! I personally have seen huge improvements. Hope things would improve better with the new equipment!

Cheers!

[sadikhusain]

Hi Friends,

I am Sadik husain from INDIA, i have RTR(Aero) License. please inform me if any RT jobs available. my email address is [email protected]

Thanks and regards,
Sadik husain

[Fair.Pilot]

Thanks to The Rage for the answer.....

[flightleader]

Veloo and Chew,

Please accept my apologises for being harsh.I would not edit my previous post to show I'm sincere with my apologises.I was mad at the decision maker instead of you ATC guys in front of the radar screen.Sorry for venting it out at you guys.

I'm a strong supporter of MAPA,however,IMHO, having dicussions over a drink CANNOT be hold as a solid input that is strong enough to issue an AIC!!Unless the feedback is the official feedback from the management.If it is from management then I rest my case.

I know every ATCers try your best to accommdate us everyday.I appreciate it.This is why I'm frustrated seeing things going backwards.Veloo,don't you think spacing for a/c to depart should be by spacing the arrival a/c apart by distance instead of a set of fix speeds? What gap would it make if both arriving a/c maintain same speed as per the speed restrictions? Same gap space.But if the preceeding a/c is faster,second a/c slow down a touch a gap
is then created for a departure.Wouldn't it? This AIC would lead to a whole lots of a/c spending additional time in the TMA regardless if there is any departure or not.2 days back,I was told to maintain 260kts way back,that's the consequences of this AIC.

270kts at 12nm means he is at 250kts indicated airspeed,should be a touch slower especially knowing someone is in front.To lose height with that speed at that distance is also wrong.

IMHO,the best thing to do is to give speed instruction as of before and leave this AIC to rest.

[veloo maniam]

Hello again FL...it's ok brother..we ALL have our ups and downs. Anyway Chew will definitely look into this matter and get back to you via this forum. There was talk sometime last year to reduce the gap but nothing has come out of it. We'll see what can come out of this suggestion of yours. Thanks buddy.:ok:

[ACMS]

Hello again Veloo.

could you pass on a request to the guys in KLIA tower please.

Ask then to get all the Air Asia crews to actually stop at the holding point line and not 40 feet back. We can not taxi behind them in anything bigger than a 737 when they do it.

Thanks

ACMS

[pecyamfa]

Hi Veloo,

R we relying on the Genting radar? Is the back-up at Bukit Subang down?

[veloo maniam]

ACMS..ok will advise KLIA guys..
Genting is ok and so is the back-up at SZB.
We have just opened a new sector. It is called
Sector 5. long awaited BUT eventually a reality now.
some teething problems here and there but all under
control. Now the 132.6 guy only handles VKN and below,
no more VKB n IGARI. Phew..what a relief..for us.:ok:

[pecyamfa]

Tks Veloo for the update.

[Fair.Pilot]

Hi Veloo,

also pass the message to MAS crew too. They too at times are too far away from the line.

Thanks...

[veloo maniam]

Hi aviators..just spoke to my pal at KLIA. He told me that the acft are holding 40ft back is due to the rwy upgrading for big brother A380. What I understand is that there is a whole lot of info passed to you guys. I think it will up to Nov.:ok:

[ACMS]

Veloo: wrong.............I watch these Air Asia aircraft sitting 40' back from the holding point line on a normal servicable runway. They then taxi forward over the line to lineup. No reason to hang back.
MH aircraft don't do it, and neither do we ( Cx )
I've seen it on 14L, 32R and at 14R. At both the full length and at intersections ( which is worse as they hang their ass onto the parallel taxiway )
It has absolutely nothing to do with runway upgrades for the 380 blunderbus.
But thanks for asking the boys in the tower.
Now could you correct their mistake.

[bus20]

:\Hey ACMS,

It could be just 1 pilot having a bad day, stop saying the whole bucket of apples are bad because YOU saw one that is bad.

Have a good flight

[veloo maniam]

ACMS..tq for the info...I will talk to my buddies at klia and get this thing over.:ok:

[ACMS]

Bus20: hello, I assume you must be and Air Asia Pilot? Welcome to the thread at long last.

Mate I have been through KLIA around 30 times in the last few years and this is happening nearly everytime I go there. It's not one incident I'm sorry to say.

So please ask your crews to pull up to the line.

Thanks

ACMS.

[veloo maniam]

Hello again..something that has been troubling me and my fellow Controllers for quite awhile.why do pilots request for descent when they are aware of reciprocal traffic within 20nm or so? It irks me when such a request is made. Instead of getting irritated can someone throw some light as to why such a request is made? Ofcourse no Ctler would issue a descent clrce immediately.It will always be after crossing. But why guys, why a request at a critical moment?
I once had an acft approaching an initial cleared level due traffic and the pilot kept asking for further descent despite having an acft yet to cross him at a lower level. controllers have been murmuring about this issue under their breath.
How can we overcome such requests.I am posting this as it happened to me again last shift:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hello ACMS...u can expect some changes about that 40ft issue soon.KLIA twr will be discussing this matter with MAB. :ok:

[Brianigham]

Hi Veloo, Long time no talk.

Your Question: why do we ask for descent right into our mates?

Answer: Not having enough of the " big picture" .:uhoh: You will find that there are some pilots who can mentally figure out where the other 5 blokes are in the zone and some actually use the tcas now to see. But alas, we do have some amongst us who are still very closed. ie have very low situational awareness. This is also something very subjective and not meant to be "judgemental".

The " worry about my profile " above everything else is the factor. Most pilots who have had the exposure though......will develop this higher level of SA. ( again subjective la )

Sorry this is a bother, but U know what. Since it is highlighted, I think all of us here should put on our thinking hats and address this.

I will keep that in mind Veloo. thanks.

[ACMS]

Veloo: thanks very much.:ok:

I look forward to my next trip through KLIA to see if they change their ways.

[flightdeckXXX]

Vello, Hi to you and to all in here.

Pilots request for descend when they are approaching descend point and ready for descend. It is to let the controller know that we are approaching our descend point and to obtain the clearance to do so. If, there is a traffic below, I believe the controller could say " standby, due traffic below" or something like that. This happened in many places, not just in KUL. Sometime ATC gave a 20 degrees heading change to facilitate the descend (for separation with the opposite traffic below) or inform the pilot that he/she is number 2 (if the traffic below is tracking in the same direction). Speed reduction might help so as to keep the separation between them.

Sometime I could read the ATC mind but at times we need more info and perhaps could suggest/do something to help the ATC workload. If I get closer with the traffic below, I do ask ATc if speed reduction might help. And in most cases, ATC do agree with my suggestion. I help, you help me lah...

I have not done this for many years in MY airspace but have done this in the rest of the world. Many ATc appreciate it and also it let my job and his/her a lot easier.

[Merdeka]

I have a suggestion:

Why don't MAS give a passage and boarding to our ATC guys to visit New Tokyo (Narita) for a week or so. Have a holiday at Tokyo Disneyland folks for 3 days and work for 4 days, sitting in with the Narita guys and learn how they handle the buzz there.

I once told a new B744 Captain that the Controllers actually know our Flap Speeds and he turn to me with disbelief. After the we were given 3 speed reductions, he realised what I was saying was actually a fact. They study the pattern see:- MAS B744 out of KLAX gives an endurance, they actually arrive TYO after how many hours = fuel remaining + average payload + DOW = B744 min man spd, with F1, F5, F10 etc. Then Spd Lim Pt. (SLP) in force + Min r/w occupancy time (I have personally witnessed a North West B742 ordered to leave the r/w after 2 minutes on the r/w and not ready for t/o).

Dear brother controllers, it's your airspace, you make the planning and tell the pilots what to do, BUT you gotta learn about each and every plane that enters your space - Max speed, Min speed, (approximate aircraft weight from Flight Plan = Type + End + DOW + Pax).

We all in MAS knows about an Old Timer who got banned from flying to SYD because he disobeyed the height restriction. So summary absolute power governing an airspace must be accompanied with knowledge and efficiency.

:8 No offense meant, let's all learn to better ourselves . . . Malaysia Boleh.

[ACMS]

Merdeka: sorry but not true.
ATC don't need to know all the manoeuvre speeds for all the A/C in their airspace on approach. They have a pretty good idea what we need but.........
How many times have you been told to reduce to 190 kts, and 190 kts was about 5 kts too slow for Flap 1 so you had to take flap 5.
So by your account they should know exactly what speed I need for flap up through to 30 and for every landing wt for my 777,give me a break, these speeds can vary by 20kts.
Sometimes they get it right and it's just a fluke, nothing more.
They slow ya down to what they need for spacing.
What do you think they will do if a 747 is following a 737? use the 737 flap maneuvering speeds or the 747's? mmmm
"the 747 needs about 230 kts clean, so lets get the 737 to hold 230 kts as well"
They give you what they need, and if you need to take more flap that's your problem, not theirs.
And to suggest they should know our landing weights and work out the speeds?????????? you must be kidding? they don't need to know that.

[Merdeka]

Thanks for the argument ACMS, I see your point. Actually when that happened, Narita was catering largely to 747's than later 777's and 330buses also operated there. All narrow bodied jets were operating in Haneda. Being KLIA handling so many types it would be quite messy to memorize all types and the differences between them plus the fact that the sector patterns are so varied.

Well thanks again for your correction and it was a suggestion, if not totally feasible, maybe partly . . .http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon6.gif

PS, sorry never flew 777, 747 into TYO from LAX would have between 220 to 230 Min Man Flaps Up. (220 to 235 tons), but flew the 737's alot though and the 200's actually can adjust to 230kts easy and those babies can slow down quickly with Speed Brakes down to 500feet with full flaps (Limitations) and make the landing on R/W33 with 7,000 feet from KL NDB. I was quite irritated one day when I had to slow down to 180 knots from well before VBA for an ILS 14L (Captain's idea on my sector :\) the controller actually help me by querying the Captain because he wanted us 220-230 till just before LOC intercept.

[veloo maniam]

Hi Aviators..many thanks for your heart warming replies. Yes we pick it from here and will keep educating ourselves for self improvement. The very idea of posting this thread was to relieve Ctlers from murmuring under their breadth as there are a lot of younger guys who are ready for action minus the finer points of real time atc. I will pass this on to the young ones just to show "the pilots mind".
Merdeka..talking about trips to Narita etc...is something way out as airlines are very strict and concious about offering free seats these days. Ofcourse this is a win win for both parties. It is hoped that familiarisation flights, as we call it, to international destinations will become a REALITY. once again guys tq for your inputs.Happy flying.:ok:

[flightdeckXXX]

The bottom line is, air traffic is getting more and more. Therefore, Atc have to handle this big number in the air. But with modern technology and better radar system, it helps a lot for air management and sequencing. It's how much the Atc willing to put their creativity in making the flow better.

Making the plane to fly at 180-190 kts. or even slower at 30 nm from touchdown is too draggy. If that was the case in KUL TMA, I wish it should have been revised to 220/210 knots. Basically, 737-400 Vref on max landing weight is around 10 knots lower than B777. Where else 744 probably have 20 knots higher than 737's. Most boeing planes do fly Vref plus 80 for flaps up speed. And most of the time planes landing at well below max landing weight (unless on emergency). I can quote B777-200 Vref 30, is 138 knots (max landing wt) and plus 80, would mean 218knots is flap up speed.

And as for KUL TMA, I can't remember if there is/are many prohibited zone in it. Unlike other airport like JFK, Washington DC or even Seoul/Beijing. These airports have many prohibited area where it restrict the airspace utilisation. Modern day radar have a lot more info on the screen (unless KUL still using the 3rd. world facillities) ie. distance to touchdown, Ground speed, etc..

Recently I flew into SIN. Radar told me to cross a waypoint near NYLON (can't remember the name) at certain time. By doing so, I could adjust my speed well ahead from top of descend and avoid dragging the plane with flaps. It was a smooth sailing. KUL could do the same. Give the time to cross a fix which probably 10 nm on final (to be done by control sector) and let the pilot adjust the speed. Most modern day planes have FMC. So, setting up your descend speed correctly will give you the exact time over the fix.

[Virtual Reality]

Good idea flightdeckXXX, if only airspace over South China Sea is controlled by Lumpur, as of today it is not and most of our descent point is well before VKN. Once passed VKN, there's not much we could do and more often that not we are still at or above FL330 and worst still if we have to reduce speed at that level ......:ugh:

[veloo maniam]

Hello FlightdeckXXX...come and visit us.See for yourself whether we are using 3rd World equipment. Give me a call 0192316519.Bring along some friends and will have a friendly tour of the centre. Maybe u can gave us some constructive ideas when u see us on duty. We might be able to incorporate some ideas into the system.
Yes SIN ATC hands over at VPK most of the time and with traffic crisscrossing VPK most of the time, descend clrearances and speed restrictions are often given well past your TOD but I always wondered how the Air Asia pilots are able to do without any complaints. I would love to go on a familiarisation flight with them one of these days. Maybe these budget airlines follow different procedures:ok:

[Brianigham]

Veloo, good point about AA not having a problem with profile. That is a good sign of "the pilot flying the plane" and not the "plane flying the pilot". Well done AA.

MR boeing didn't leave out the speedbrakes when he built them planes.They come in quite handy, and I have used them in ALL airspaces.

[flightdeckXXX]

Boeing made the speed brake for many reasons. Of course you can use it as you like. But if you do descent with speed brake during all you approaches, than there must be something wrong with your profile. Boeing mentioned in the FCTM to keep the aircraft clean as long as possible for better fuel consumption. They also equipped your plane with modern on board comfuser, ie the FMC for your profile management. One major reason for the speed brake available is for certification requirement. Jet aircrafts fly at a very high altitude. When a decompression occurred, one have to make an emergency descend to 10000ft within certain time frame. Can you imagine if your 330 or 777 don’t have speed brake to do so? Haven’t seen F50 / F27 with speed brake, maybe some new prop aircraft have it. They don’t fly very high and therefore there is no requirement for speed brake if one has decomp/pressurization problem.
Secondly, is speed range. A jet plane have a vast speed range, ie. from Vref to 330/340 knots (VMo/MMo). To bring down the speed from 320 knots to 210 knots or lower in level flight would required some 10 miles. That’s why they call it speed brake. F50/27 has smaller speed range. The need of speed brake is almost non existence.
Thirdly, it’s also known as spoiler where it is used mainly during landing and reject take off. In certification, spoiler is required to meet the reject performance. No reverser/s is OK, not part of certification. That’s’ why you pull your spoiler/speed brake during RTO and/or landing.
Speed brake becomes a common tool these days for jet aircraft. With ever increasing traffics and height/speed restriction imposed by STAR or ATC, it’s become my “good friend” , not all the time bro. Unless you are the type that love to touch it even with slightly higher on profile or speed. Not for me, that’s for sure. I used it if it’s become very necessary.

[flightdeckXXX]

Thousand apology Veloo. I didn't mean any harm in here. I was hoping that whatever equipments you have there must be of the latest or new one. However, I'm a guy frequently fly to the big US cities .ie, JFK, O'Hare, DFW, Atlanta, LAX, SFO, etc...Their traffic condition is a nightmare. Of course they have more than one runway. Never the less, they can coup up with the demand day by day. Most delay is caused by security problem and weather (storm, heavy snow, etc..) Improvement can be done, ie. reduce separation, multiple approach sectors/controllers, sim-ops approach/departure, to name a few. I understand you have a single runway at this moment. May be after the work completed, the situation will be better.

Ok, what about asking flight to descend to an intermediate level before VKN from SIN ATC, ie. FL 290/280. and then KUL sector take over at/after VKN onwards. It's no point hanging at FL 370/390/400 while passing VKN, I'm sure that position is pass over your descend point for that kind of level. It's better to start your descend slightly earlier to intermediate level than spending extra minutes in high level cruise and charge the plane like hell after passing VKN. Worst if there will be speed control after that. Passing VKN at FL290/280 within KUL sector will be just nice for the next descend clearance. And keep the departing plane to cross VKN at FL300 or above so as not to disrupts other traffic that inbound for KUL/SZB.

I gave my 2 sen worth of suggestion/s in here. It's just a suggestion, if it doesn't suit your needs, than try something else. As for Air Asia never have any complaint, I could not comment on that. Perhaps, they don't fly to Primary airport beside than KUL. It's always secondary airport that they like to go. They haven't seen major airport like the above I have mentioned or even some major airports in the rest of the world. So, they can't make much comparison until they have experienced the difference between one major airport with another.

Cheers.

[veloo maniam]

As most aviators utilising the KUL & SIN a/space are aware that SIN controls all traffic over the South China Sea i.e after VPK. With ever increasing tfc crisscrossing VPK, most of the levels are occupied. Given now with the RVSM a/space, levels are being occupied every now and then. It has always been SIN ATC's style to release traffic inbound to KUL at the TOC (transfer of communication point) i.e VPK or Taxul. Some proactive ATClers will ask SIN to release tfc earlier. However by the time the inbound acft calls KUL ATC, it may too late to issue a descent clearance because someone else has now come closer to you. Hence not enough radar separation to descend. Tfc from BKK to SIN and vice versa thru VPK has also increased. Just imagine not only we have to descend u guys but also issue speed restrictions eg 250kts. There are limitations and these limitations are increasing by the day. With new radar controllers coming into the scene, skills are lacking as they do not have enough experience to push acft down earlier particularly the A330's.U wud have noticed that we have opened a new sector between VPK and VKB. the freq is 134.25. This has relieved us of coordination but not the traffic.:ok:

[flightdeckXXX]

Veloo. I'm aware of the constraint with regards to the airspace over the South China Sea and the East Coast sector. If the problem is not the equipments and not the human factor, then it is the poilitical will. After 50 years of Merdeka and Malaysia not even control the airspace within 50 nm from its coastline (over South China Sea), then susah lah.

Almost 25 years ago, Hong Kong do control most part of South China Sea, north of what SIN control. Today we see SANYA control some, and Ho Chi Minh control some. As the aviation progress, we also move forward. Sitting down and telling the whole world of our constraint doesn't help.

P.S. noted with thanks. hope I can visit you and one of my ex-school mate at the center there one day.

[veloo maniam]

Welcome mate.Bring the whole family.:ok:

[ACMS]

Hi again Veloo:
Another question if I may:-- Why do KL Gnd insist on us staying on their frequency when at the holding point and number 4 for departure? It makes it difficult to follow what's happening on the runway for things like: wind checks, windshear reports, sequencing, and just generally what's going on.
Is there a reason we can't listen to the Twr frequency as we get within 100 m of the holding point?
Our situational awareness suffers a bit.
This happens in HK as well.
cheers.

[Chrome]

To my mind it's simply to relieve the Tower controllers of the extra work they would have to spend listening and replying to an aircraft calling at a holding point when the controllers should really be concentrating on the guys on approach, takeoff and landing.

What is the rush? I don't really rush myself calling Tower when I am handed over when I know there's an aircraft in front of me are just about to be given their takeoff clearance or an aircraft on approach is just about to be given their landing clearance. Why call Tower when you know he'll only give you a 'hold position' order? He knows you're there and the last hold position order remains.

2 words. VHF2.

[veloo maniam]

what is your opinion about the way Aviation English Tests are being conducted?
I have been hearing a lot of negative comments about the way it is being conducted(both from Ctlers and Pilots). To me the methodology used can be improved. What say u aviators?

[Fair.Pilot]

I think the English test has its noble intention, but to go thru the test like a secondary school exam...... hmm
I would prefer a "face to face" encounter, which I think is more fair.
Moreover I promised myself 20 yrs ago that ATPL was the LAST EXAM ever I wanna take!!! :) (sudah tua mahu ada peperiksaan lagi ka?)

[ACMS]

Chrome: please re-read my post,I said Is there a reason we can't listen to the Twr frequency as we get within 100 m of the holding point?
I didn't say to "call" the Twr early.
A lot of places ( LHR being one ) tell you to "monitor" the tower when quite a way back down the taxyway.
Although I do have 3 VHF comms i shoudn't have to monitor them all at once.
It's all "big picture" stuff and quite frankly good airmanship.

[GTR-34]

ACMS..is right. There are a lot of places where the ground controller asks to monitor tower freq. Its not an instruction to call tower. We'll just have to listen out and tower ctl will call when he/she is ready. Usually happens in UK/US.

About the "english" test, i guess it depends on whether its the english or american version. Heard it can be quite tough, most guys got level 4 or 5. Well better start taking some english tuition!:O

[Chrome]

I understand what you mean ACMS but if monitoring is all you want, use VHF2 and monitor. There are 2 of you, you can monitor Tower while your co-pilot can still be on VHF1 for the handover command. If (as you put it) Ground 'insists' on you staying on their frequency, there's nothing to stop you from listening on the other VHF really. This is Kuala Lumpur. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I didn't like it that in my test, aircraft callsigns were not transmitted accordingly as separate digits. 614 should be pronounced SIX WUN FOWER and not SIX FORTEEN. 640 is SIX FOWER ZERO and not SIX FORTY.

[flightdeckXXX]

Dear Veloo,

First of all I would like to wish you a very Happy Diwali (a belated one).

Last month while I was on dead-heading back to KUL, I woke up from my sleep as the plane start to descend. I realised that the plane was still away from VKN/VPK when it left its cruising level and than flew a level flight till passing Kuantan/Pekan.

Subsequently, it started to descend again towards KLIA on the STAR. This is first time I didn't feel any buffeting due to speedbrake deployment during the second phase of descend. The approach and the landing was smooth sailing.

I didn't asked the pilot what happened after we landed as I was in a hurry to be at home. I only assumed that the flight did a two stage descend profile, one before VKN/VPK and then a second descend while in KUL TMA. It works very well. Before this particular flight, it's always with buffeting sensation while descending into KLIA. So, my question is: is this a new way of controlling the traffic from the east sector?

[veloo maniam]

Hello FlightdeckXXX. Thnxs for your greetings. Mine is 25th Dec but the belated is still accepted warmly. a few of us are striving to introduce CDA i.e continuos descent approach as far as possible. Of course flow control still gives priority to traffic from the east as our bulk is from the eastern sectors. We are encouraging fellow controllers to bring in u guys with the least buffeting on approach into KLIA. We are not there yet but we are on our way.expect to see some changes over the next few months as we are even working out to reduce the 5nm on approach to 3nm. Mind set has to change from top to bottom and we are working on it. :ok:

[lesenterbang]

Subsequently, it started to descend again towards KLIA on the STAR. This is first time I didn't feel any buffeting due to speedbrake deployment during the second phase of descend. The approach and the landing was smooth sailing.


The first descend was probably by SIN Ctrl, as it happens over the sea. KUL radar normally took over just before crossing the coastline.

Nothing strange about not using speedbrake on descend into KUL, if you don't depends too much on the FMC and knows how to read the ATC's mind before you get trapped. In short, knowing when to slow down and when to plan for direct 10 miles final. Personally, I rarely ever need to use the speedbrake and most of the time, throttle at or near idle and no level section.

[veloo maniam]

The first descend was probably by SIN Ctrl, as it happens over the sea. KUL radar normally took over just before crossing the coastline.

Yes, even though the initial descend clearance over the sea is issued by SIN ATC, the level cleared to has to be obtained from KUL ATC as the acft is inbound to KUL. The norm for SIN is to transfer acft over at TAXUL or VPK, a situation where u might have passed your TOD point, depending on your FL or type of acft. Even then we have to be careful not to infringe KUANTAN TMA which is up to FL245. anything lower than FL245 over the KUANTAN TMA has to be coordinated. With all this in mind, we are trying to achieve a CDA to as many acft as possible. Good for you and good for us.:ok:

[flightdeckXXX]

:p Lesenterbang,
I'm fully aware of who control over South China Sea, before VPK or TAXUL. But with good coordination between KUL and SIN ATC, plane can be cleared to intermediate level ie, FL310/290 before VPK/TAXUL instead of maintaining FL380/400 which well passed the TOD point once passed VPK/TAXUL fix.
Like many ATC in this world, normally the adjacent controller will cleared you to descend to an intermediate level and then pass it over to the next controller. One example is Wien (Austria), where most part of the descend from the east is controlled by Bratislava due to close proximity of the two FIRs.
As I have suggested earlier, the intermediate level (FL310/290) would probably a good level to fly over VPK/TAXUL before your next descend once KUL takes over. It won't be too high at that point that one would have no choice but to use speed brakes or charging with higher speed to get back on profile. It also depend on the type of plane you fly and speed at the time you cross VPK/TAXUL. I've flown the A330 and B777. This planes are much "cleaner" than the B737 and to loose height or speed, would most likely have to deploy the speed brake if higher than normal profile.
After all, it's up to individual preference. To descend to intermediate level or keep your initial cruising level and charge down with high speed and speedbrake. I don't fly to KUL nowadays as a "skipper". Just giving my opinion on the subject.

[Virtual Reality]

Selamat Hari Raya Aidil Adha, Merry Xmas & Happy New Year

Hi Veloo,

HKG ATC just announced that they will start to reduce separation from 5nm to 4 nm on final WEF 01 Jan 2008 and the trial period will be for 3 months. Any plan for such procedure in KUL especially during peak hours?

Cheers

[veloo maniam]

Hi Virtual...thnxs for the info. On our side there has been suggestions to reduce the minima. Some CTlers are for it and some are not. It is not due to CTLer capability BUT rather insufficient equipment at KLIA(particularly for simultaneous approaches into KLIA). Discussions are on going and u may hear some improvements soon.
Our sincere seasons greetings to all.
WISHING ALL PPRUNERS A BLESSED CHRISTMAS AND AN INCIDENT FREE 2008.:ok:

[Chrome]

To the controllers and users of the KUL and BKI FIR,

Here's wishing 2008 brings us all happiness, good health and safe flying environment :cool:

[veloo maniam]

Thank You Chrome.

[veloo maniam]

Hello Aviators and fellow Ctlers...Lumpur ATC wishes all a very happy and prosperous Chinese New Year. GONG XI FA CAI.
You have left an area of flight safety to be with your loved ones. Now...drive safely. catch you guys again in the air.:ok:

[bakutteh]

Vanakkam Annan, rembe nandri!

[Virtual Reality]

Hi Veloo,

How do you rate this controller based on clearance given?

Callsign, CLEARED taxi to holding point Rwy 32R via H, B, A11 and hold short of B.

This is exactly what I heard few days ago from Lumpur Ground.:ugh:

[flightleader]

This type of clearence had been highlighted to ATClers before.Sadly,nothing changed.

Expected standard taxy clearence should not be given with restrictions.In this case,IMHO,should just be "Cleared to taxy on H/G/K and hold shot B." Holding point should not be mentioned.

[Virtual Reality]

Or as simple/short as "Taxi H hold short of B" .....:ugh:

[Fair.Pilot]

Mr Veloo,

is there any plan to create "Subang Approach"?
I find Approach North 124.2 is always busy with traffics to/from Subang.
Today on my flt departing to DownSouth, we were held quite 1 or 2 mins by Subang's traffics.

Selamat Mengundi:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hello there Fair.pilot...Yes..I totally agree that 124.2 can be and
is becoming busy nowadays. 124.2 has to take care of both
KLIA and SZB. Though priority is for KLIA dep n arr, SZB is
becoming a cause of concern for Apch North. somehow the
boys and girls are juggling and pushing the tins up and down
to their best of ability thus far. Maybe ur idea of SZB Apch
will be looked into.
No..there are no plans for SZB appch. at the moment.
Plans are for Apch Low.This too depends upon how soon can we train
the boys and gals.:ok:

[Fair.Pilot]

Thanks for the prompt reply.

Subang is fast becoming an aviation hub (GA, maintenance,.. etc)

It's ELECTION time, also means time to ASK?:)

[Fair.Pilot]

Please allow me to divert to the current 12th General Election, regarding PM Pak Lah.

There's mounting pressure from some quarters e.g former PM Tun Mahathir for Pak Lah to resign. Having met him and known him, Pak Lah is definitely a nice and clean (corruption free) man.

Too bad, he inherited bad policies and corrupted government from Dr M.
Rising crime rate, rotting judiciary and made worse by recent Lingam case on brokering judges appointment has finally taken a toll on him.

Flashing of "Kris" at UMNO assembly definitely did not go down well too, with other races.

NEP(New Economics Policy) with are always racial bias/discriminatory are to be blamed too. Many brain drains to neighbouring country.

Son-in-law Khairy's fast rise also may cause jealousy within party.

Millions of Indonesians getting PRs easily whilst educated and qualified profesionals are marginalised.

If not for oil palm and Petronas, this Boleh Land is long considered a gone nation like Somalia in Africa.

Look at Singapore, with NO natural resources and yet rich and strong.

Hang in there Pak Lah, you're many times better than your deputy Najib!


Visit www.malaysiakini.com For the truth of Negaraku

[Kato747]

Gentlemen, sorry if this has been addressed earlier in this forum, but a quick thread search didn't come up with an obvious "hits".

I fly regularly to and from KLIA and nearly always have great difficulty determining which runway is actually in use for departures from the KLIA ATIS. I am a native English speaker, have worked here for many years and have a relatively good 'ear' for the local accent.

My problem is that many times I cannot, even after multiple tries, distinguish between: 32 Reft, 32 Light, 32 Lyft and 32 Ryft..... :ugh: or the more conventional 32 LEFT or 32 RIGHT. :ok: This makes it difficult, at best, to determine which RW I should be making out my 377,842 KG bug card for.

Perhaps, it is the equipment used to record the ATIS?

I am certain that I have heard, at "other" locations.... the use of a "Romeo" or "Lima". suffix, indicating left or right. Use of that system, though unconventional, would alleviate this problem altogether.

Any help getting this sorted would be greatly appreciated. :D

[Kato747]

Just experienced the "confusion" again upon returning to KUL from MEL at 2200Z. T'was impossible to determine landing runway from the ATIS prior to reaching VJR.

Hope someone in KLIA ATC is still monitoring this sticky! If so, please PM me. :}

[veloo maniam]

Hi Aviators..can anyone else substantiate KATO's readability status?
Is your problem with the ATIS txs???
Let me know so that it can be rectified soon.:ok:

[Paladini]

Yes, i can confirm these problem. Many times in KL it is not possible to understand whether ATIS says left or right on runways in use. It is very hard. I think it is the automated voice that is the cause. I am glad there is a way we can tell about this.

[Podunk]

Kato 747 has a valid concern here. The last few times I have transitted Kuala, I've noticed this problem with the ATIS, It seems to be only there in KL.

Most times, the words Left and Right are indistinguishable on the recording.

Usually, we just make out takeoff data for both runways and wait until we receive our clearance. That doesn't solve the problem on arrivals, though.

Kato, I think it is Jeddah that uses the romeo/lima phraseology.

[veloo maniam]

Hello Aviators...expect changes soon to the highlited problem
soon.Action on the way.thnxs for alerting.:ok:

[Virtual Reality]

Well Done Veloo, you will have my vote in the next GE ...:D

[tigerwood]

Good job Veroo. Me too will vote you for the next GE (might sound like generar erection if you have to broadcast this.:O)

[veloo maniam]

:ugh:lojer..lead u sleng pie...sawatikap.:ok:

[Fair.Pilot]

2 Votes from me, DUN & Parliament!:ok:

[veloo maniam]

Hello guys..news is that the automatic atis at klia is not up to the mark as the equipment is rather old. a new system is on the way. In the meantime u can expect 32Romeo or 32Lima as u have suggested.
My buddies at klia are aware of the existing problem and will be working on it.
cheers:ok:

[flightleader]

Dear Veloo and Chew,

May I highlight an approach chart error to you,hope you can get something done.

AIP WMKK AD 2-63 STAR-Nipar Three Alpha Arrival refers;

For example:

Pulip Alpha transition,There is a altitude restriction at Leder 11000' or above ,Nipar 5300 or Above. But there is also an underlined 11000' between this two waypoint which means 11000' must be maintained until overhead Nipar.If this is true,all a/cs would be coming in extremely high.

This error also appear on Pibos transition.It has been there for years and as a result,Jepps charts also has this error.May I suggest DCA examine each and everyone of these arrival charts again.

[llchew]

Flightleader,

I saw that some time back on the Jepp charts. Supposed to check with the chart guys but forgot about it completely. Thanks for the reminder.

Chew

[pecyamfa]

Is Senai approach ready? What will happen to Lunchu approach?