HEATHROW

[fadec_primary_channel]

The following link is to the Guardian on line and concerns the Govt's appeal against the recent decision. It would appear that various departments could be battling against oneanother. Stormy times for Tony !<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0%2C3604%2C628822%2C00.html" target="_blank">Guardian on line</a> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Torquelink]

Just seen following on Yahoo - apologies if posted elsewhere:

A £1.5 billion plan to demolish Terminal 2 at Heathrow airport and build a new terminal in time for the 2012 Olympics has been outlined by airport operator BAA.
Work on the new terminal could start by 2009 and the terminal would be capable of handling 30 million passengers a year.
Designed to complement the new £4.2 billion Terminal 5 at Heathrow, the new terminal could be used by Sir Richard Branson's airline Virgin Atlantic as well as by members of the airline group Star Allianincludes British carrier bmi, Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines.
Known as Heathrow East, the BAA plan will be for the demolition of Terminal 2 and the adjacent Queen's Building office block, with the new terminal being built on the site and spreading to the east.
BAA stressed that the plan would not involve any net increase in passenger capacity.
BAA intends to discuss the idea formally with airlines to assess the viability of the project. The plan would also be dependent on regulatory support from the Civil Aviation Authority.
If all goes well, a planning application could be submitted in 2007, permission granted in 2008, work started in 2009 and the terminal completed in time for the 2012 Olympics.
Terminal 5 is due to open in 2008, with British Airways moving its entire operation there. It will be capable of handling more than 30 million passengers a year.
BAA Heathrow managing director Mick Temple said: "The significant increase in capacity created by Terminal 5 gives us a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to look at the rest of Heathrow and think creatively about how we can use our current very limited space better.
"We are excited by the idea of Heathrow East, but at the moment it is still just an idea. We aim to discuss the possibilities with our airlines and the CAA to see if we can make it a reality. Our vision is to create the world's greatest international hub airport in the world's greatest city”

[Skipness One Echo]

Another piece of history gone.... Yes I know it's God awful but hey! That's progress.

[Hartington]

So BAA plan to demolish T2 at LHR and replace it:


Press release (http://www.baa.com/portal/controller/dispatcher.jsp?CiID=7013471fe7f67010VgnVCM10000036821c0a____&CtID=a22889d8759a0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____&Ct=B2C_CT_PRESS_RELEASE&ChPath=Corporate^Media%20Centre^News%20Releases^Results)

and a Picture (http://www.baa.com/assets/B2CPortal/Static%20Files/LHReast_birdseye.jpg)

Wither T1 and T3?!

[14loop]

Was trawling the net and found this :-

London] Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.

— anon.



Brilliant !!!!!

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Just read on BBC website
T5 Builders to go on strike re pay

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4487418.stm

G-I-B

[ScootCargoOps]

The member airlines of the oneworld airline alliance and BAA have signed an agreement which will see the airlines other than BA transfer to Heathrow Airport's Terminal 3 when BA moves in to Terminal 5 in March 2008.

Currently, oneworld carriers - who account for more than 50 percent of Heathrow's traffic with 35 million passengers a year travelling on about 700 departures and arrivals a day - are split across all four of Heathrow's terminals. Under the agreement their operations will be consolidated in an up-graded Terminal 3, which is the closest of the existing terminals to the new Terminal 5. oneworld carriers will share adjacent check-in desks, jetbridges and other facilities in Terminal 3.

BAA Heathrow describes the agreement as a key part of its strategy to co-locate airline alliances. It is currently investing significantly in Terminal 3, the building is undergoing a multi-million pound modernisation program, with a substantial amount planned to be spent on passenger and baggage-related projects during the next seven years.

In addition, the check-in area will be reshaped and expanded to minimise congestion, make it easier for passengers to find their way around and provide more natural light. The latest technology and infrastructure will be incorporated into new baggage systems and other passenger services.

The agreement covers all seven of the existing oneworld member airlines serving Heathrow - British Airways, American Airlines, Qantas, Cathay Pacific Airways, Iberia, Finnair and Aer Lingus. It also makes provision for all three of the carriers currently lining up to join the alliance - Japan Airlines, Malev and Royal Jordanian. The agreement provides for their growth in Terminal 3 as Heathrow's overall capacity expands in the future.

BA will be the only airline housed at the new Terminal 5. The size and shape of its Heathrow schedule in 2008 will mean a small number of its services will be located at Terminal 3. These will include its departures to Australia and Spain, to maximise the cohesion of its joint services with oneworld partners Qantas and Iberia.

source - http://www.uk-airport-news.info/heathrow-airport-news-140306a.htm

[ALLDAYDELI]

any word on T4? Is that likely to be Star Alliance partners?

[hon_bookie]

I thought the plan was for Star Alliance to have T1 refurbished, and Sky Team to go into T4.

[ScootCargoOps]

I've also heard T4 will become Skyteam.
T2 is going to become the balance of the non-alliance airlines I think.

Central area is going to look like a building site until the 2012 Olympics, lets hope they can get it all done in time!

[MarkD]

I thought QF were going to T5 with their A380s?

[ScootCargoOps]

QF have never been going to T5 they were always going to stay in T4 or move to T3. QF Management have no interest in moving there.

[Captain Rat]

LHR has always been a building site and probably always will. I have been in and out of LHR since the late 70's and it has always been a building site. After spending so much on the terminals its a shame the road access is rubbish still, and public transport from anywhere other than towards London is rubbish. (Try getting a bus or train from the south/south west of the airport....)

[Skipness One Echo]

Only building site in the world with it's own airport......
What's happening with the old control tower, it adds character to the whole place.

Also, I can understand why BA use T1 for the NRT, JNB SFO and LAX services, spare gate capacity at certain times, byt exactly why can they not get a single gate for the MIA services which are in ..... Terminal 3.
Are BOAC homesick ? And so when T5 opens, the OZ services will be in T3 still ?

[MarkD]

Skipness

the T3 service is so BA are on the T3 committee IIRC.

[Globaliser]

The size and shape of its Heathrow schedule in 2008 will mean a small number of its services will be located at Terminal 3. These will include its departures to Australia and Spain, to maximise the cohesion of its joint services with oneworld partners Qantas and Iberia.Well, if they're going to that, then to make the QF part of that work properly, BA will have to put all BKK, HKG and SIN services in T3 as well.

Othewise, can you imagine the chaos? "BA11 to SIN will operate from T5, but BA15 to SIN will operate from T3 ..." Hordes of paying punters turning up in the wrong place on a regular basis, which will cost BA money to sort out irrespective of who's fault it technically is.

[ALLDAYDELI]

Come on BAA, can we get this sorted out??
Long long delays around Heathrow south this morning due to massive queues getting into checkpoints.
Buses delayed trucks held up and junctions blocked solid, whats going on?
This happened a couple of months back and here we go again.

[Hot Wings]

Maybe they shouldn't have failed 57 out of 61 tests on security during the recent audit by the DTI (allegedly, of course!).

[BIGBATMAN]

Well i know at least 15 teststhat didnt get through so the figures that are alleged must be wrong,

Maybe all the staff that go through come prepared and dont take ages empting pockets and stuff, and stop moaning about it.
This would put less pressure on the guards to try which try to
a) keep the airport safe
b) having to try and cater for the whining that they face,

Trying to help speed up and get people through has back fired and they failed test pieces. so this mean in order to save their own job they have to slow down and watch their backsides. if they fail they are out.

Its a bit like the egg and spoon race if you rush you fail!!

If in doubt have it out is a good way of seeing it.

P.s i would agree however that there isnt enough checkpoints / guards.

This is due to the managment not the individual gaurds.!!

Hope everyone gets the idea, and please excuse the spelling mistakes it late.

[ANOTHER ton?]

BAA / HAL need to pull their finger out and sort this pronto - it is their fault that their staff haven't been doing their jobs properly, hence failing the tests, and BA should be offered some pretty large compensation for the grief their incompetence has caused.

These issues also extend into the terminals, causing flight delays due constant pax offloads and really, really winding up OUR passengers. I've lost count of the number of irate passengers turning up at the gate screaming blue murder because they've just spend 2 hours in a security queue, especially if they've now missed their flight depsite arriving at the airport in plenty of time.

The thing that really p****s me off is that they complain that they don't have enough security lanes in the terminal building, yet have acres of revenue generating shops in the same building - I am becoming increasingly hacked off with their poor levels of customer service in the name of cost.

I'm going to stop writing now cos I'm in danger of going off on a real rant..but next time you walk through the lobby area and down a jetty to board your well maintained flight deck, take a minute to look around at the filth that us ground staff have to work in... :):)

[Sunfish]

I have to tell you that because of this type of phenomenon, I am now planning my overseas trips to minimise air travel and completely avoid LHR.

[BIGBATMAN]

Hi again, i have to agree on its BAA (the company) that has let them get away with accerating the time it take to check a person, you are right they should have stop them from not doing their job properly, But im afraifd as you well know it saves them alot of money for them to let the guards get away with it.

A) i would say the 2 hour waiting time is a bit much !! more like 45 minutes at the mo everyone tends to times there waiting time by 1.5,

Like how long it takes for a dispatcher to arrive at flights during some parts of the day at Heathrow.

B) Another thing is that there is enough security lanes and its not a thing about space its more to do with not having allocatied enough staff to an area to run all the machines.

use to be 9 machines on INT in T1 with only about 4-6 running!!

Thats the problem not space!!

And the silly thing for BAA is when this Passengers are in the "2 hour" infact only 10-50 minutes the passengers are are not in the shops making them money!! and inturn arriving at the flight ready and in a good mood to by Duty Free!!.

[BIGBATMAN]

Or yer and that same filth should go in a couple of years when BA getT5

And T2 goes,

It all of the local crap about not wanting a new terminal thats also delayed things.

Think if the Public reviews didnt go on T5 would be open now.

And that rubbish and filth in the terminal we all have to work in it infact some of us have to chase it down the taxiway so it doesnt go in your engines.

Cheers

[BusyB]

From personal experience in T4 2 weeks ago I waited in excess of 45 minutes after a BA ground staff member had taken me to the front of the landside queue due only 50 mins to departure. From there it took 45 mins due only 2 machines in operation. I remonstrated with the security Duty manager who had no idea of the length of the queue's landside and agreed that only 2 machines was disgraceful?
Last week all X-ray machines working but not enough walkthrough scanners and queue was 20 minutes.

The BAA obviously has a problem managing their security and should get their finger out now!!!

[WHBM]

If this sort of continual mismanagement, delay and incompetent planning were happening anywhere else in the aviation process, like engineering, ops, or whatever, the responsible management would have been taken to task and then removed long ago.

Yet somehow security seem able to get out of it with a cry of "well it's for security so you can't touch me".

Yes, security management. Either do your job and manage the security procedures effectively, up to specification, competently, politely, without delays, and without impacting on the rest of the organisation, or stand aside and let someone who can deliver all of these take over. In the general scale of airline operations it's one of the easier tasks.

[radeng]

T4 yesterday had two machines not operating for some reason. And is it 5 or 6 machines in total? The management of BAA/HAL are obviously totally incompetent in not having fixed this problem, and ought to be fired.

[Jetstream Rider]

The extra time in the queue is nothing to do with security. It is all to do with the appearance of security. They have to be "seen to be doing something" after failing the checks.

I say this beacuse a Captian I was flying with was refused access airside recently. He was in uniform, and had his ID. When this failed to swipe, he showed his passport and licence - not good enough for the security guard, he had to show a crew manifest. Lucky we had one. Now where on earth does it say we need a crew manifest to get airside? The fact his pass didn't swipe was not the Captain's fault - it was one of the new issue ID's that BAA haven't got working yet.

This whole process took about 10 minutes, while others waited patiently behind. I then went through and the didn't even swipe my pass!!!!!

[slingsby]

Simply put, BAA are short of 300 staff. And therein lies the problem. Staff leaving, resigning or retiring out outweighing the recruitment. Apparently it takes 4 months to get a new guard on line with all the checks and training. Also with the current intake of 100, only 70 are left after just 6 weeks. Inside source stated that they only expect 40 to pass final tests and go on to line work.

[WHBM]

BAA are short of 300 staff ..... Staff leaving, resigning or retiring out outweighing the recruitment. Apparently it takes 4 months to get a new guard on line with all the checks and training. Also with the current intake of 100, only 70 are left after just 6 weeks. Inside source stated that they only expect 40 to pass final tests and go on to line work.
And for how long have these been typical figures ? Years I suspect. And has anything been done about it ? No.

[BRISTOLRE]

short of staff... didnt they announce mega redundancies around Christmas time last year? second some managers into these "security roles" to get things moving. Clear the landside road queues for a start, the congestion can be terrible as AllDayDeli says.

[DC10RealMan]

I am a regular traveller and can only agree with Sunfish. I travel from my local airport which is Southampton and is efficent and the staff helpful to other European airports were I can then travel long haul. I cannot stand LHR and would rather pay more to fly from somewhere else. Heathrow is a paradise however compared to the terminals at LAX!!!

[manintheback]

And for how long have these been typical figures ? Years I suspect. And has anything been done about it ? No.

And to answer. I complained in writing about the length of queues to BAA and the response was as given above re staff shortage, time to recruit, checks and all that.This was in the Autumn of.......2003

[BIGBATMAN]

Hi,

The thing is that the guards, which wait upto 5 hours before having a break.
The Supervisor which are stuck in the middle between upset passengers / airlines / guards / managers have to try and find the mid point to try and keep everyone happy with the resourse.
The Front line managers all say that theres not enough staff to run the process properly,

Its the upper managers with the budgets that is causing all this the front line staff are just doing it how they think is best for everyone.

The thing about the pilot with a id that doesnt swipe. is lucky he got in that quick. It isnt stand process to allow them in on a manifest.

What would happen if a person turn up with and id that does swipe a fake liance anda dodgy uniform would you let him in?? then everyone would moan about how he shouldnt have been allowed in.

I totally agree with the fact its not acceptable that you have to wait long periods of time but i do think that the frontline staff are doing it the best way. with what they have which is not enough staff. to many empty machines, late breaks. Yes the staff do need a break they are cant go on forever.

So if think having a pop on the low part of the tree level is just making it it worst.

Anyway i wont write anymore.

Cheers

[Sunfish]

I have an extremely simple cure for this entire problem. It could be implemented in a matter of months, and it is guaranteed to produce a security workforce that is competent, fast, helpful, friendly and efficent


Offer to pay the Security Guards 200,000 pounds a year.

It's always the same problem when you hear the "we can't recruit enough staff" what they really mean is "We can't find competent people who will work for us for the miserable amount we are offering to pay them

To put it another way you get what you pay for

[Anti-ice]

To an outsider , it would appear that it is a work-to rule/go slow practice....
the other sunday morning at 0530 it took us over an hour and a quarter to get through at the entry point by 'Gate Gourmet' roundabout - we got on the a/c 20 mins after take-off.

If they're not being given the resources then fair enough - but with BAA's big profits, surely they do not want every a/c taking off an hour late due to logistics.

This needs sorting out. Fast.

[Big Hilly]

. . . we got on the a/c 20 mins after take-off.
Crikey, that must have taken some doing!!!!!!! :D ;)

BH

[747-436]

If the Airlines started billing them each time a departure was delayed as a direct result of taking ages to get through Security, ie late crews, they would soon speed up!!!!

[srs what?]

This is already being attempted, at least by my company.

[BIGBATMAN]

Hi all,

A couple of replys to some of the comments in the last few emails.

Anti-Ice.good comments and you seem to view it from both angles:-

"If they're not being given the resources then fair enough - but with BAA's big profits, surely they do not want every a/c taking off an hour late due to logistics"

it is a resource problem and the bit about work to rule.

Well its exactly what it is. Thats how it should be!! Unfortunatly the resources in place are for people that dont work to rule.
Which im afraid happened many times to get people through to flights, the guards started to fail the tests and for their own job security which is what really matters to live. They have to do the job how it should be done. I.e work to rule. Which causes queues until BAA managment admit that for the job to be done to the rule book they need more staff. they are getting more staff but from now till then its going to be crap!!


---------------------------------------------------------------

About billing BAA for long queues. This does happen.

The BAA and airlines have agreed a limit to how long queue time can be and if they go over this time more than a fix amount of occasions then they have to pay all the airlines effected a certain amount of money more for the more common airlines based on % of flights.

This is the same of the other hand. when an airline doesnt push back for other reasons they too have to pay up so basically the money goes back and forth, looking at the queses more money is going from BAA to the airlines i would guess.

Not to mention how much BAA is losing from retail when the passengers spend an hour in a queue when they could be spending an hour in the shops.

by cutting the queues everyone could make a lot more money!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------

cheers

[chrisbl]

If passengers get a wiff if this then perhaps they can bill the airline and the airport for delays too. In the old days it was turn up an hour before a flight, then it was two and now its about four.

It really does prove the old maxim, "time to spare go by air".

Eurostar to Paris really is a much more pleasant way to go.

[BusyB]

Yes, If the passengers all picked up a time card when they started to queue the BAA could make payments for everything over 30 mins. It would have to be enough to buy another ticket when you miss your flight (as I almost did).

[BIGBATMAN]

Well a time card from when they checked in would be better.

You wouldnt believe the amount of passengers that check in then bugger off somewhere then turn up close to departure time too.

But still thats no excuse, I have to say im normal quite lucky by the sounds of it, although last time i went out from LHR it was T1 in January i queued up for 11 minutes and it was 11 minutes as i timed it for the supervisor on duty. however it has got alot worst since then, as ive been hearing from the guards themselves,

None of the other BAA / Non BAA airports seem to have the problem so it must be a Heathrow Managment problem.

I think T4 is crap because they have one archway for 2 xray machines which creates a bottleneck too.

[slingsby]

Further to my earlier post about the lack of trained staff and the lack of potential candidates.
I have found this document laying on the briefing desk, and just happened to read it, it's called "erg ercp standards & rebates_annex1_march06" which outlines the performance standards BAA / HAL have to achieve. Also it states in various forms of mathematics the rebate refund etc if standards are not met.
The good news is that the airlines will get some refund if their aircraft are not parked within a certain time limit or if passenger security queues extend beyond 1 hour and up to 2 hours. What it did not mention is the queue limit for staff and crew access times.
Currently aircraft are charged at the on-pier/hard ramp standard rate 15 minutes after landing, irrelevant if your holding for budget cheap airlines to get off your stand, or for other reasons. What it is now stating is that the airline will get a percentage of this parking charge back.
So, after all this, I believe this document does highlight that BAA / HAL do have a serious and long term problem with staffing issues. I firmly believe that with this document, meant as an appeasement to the airlines, the resolution will not be solved until the closure of T2 and the relocation of staff to supplement other terminals. BY then the staffing levels should according sources be at functional levels.

[BusyB]

How about an appeasement to the passengers, they are the ones that miss flights!

[CAP493]

I have to tell you that because of this type of phenomenon, I am now planning my overseas trips to minimise air travel and completely avoid LHR.Quite right! And if going European i.e. short-haul, take the train from Central London (23 minutes ex. St Pancras, 35 minutes ex. Blackfriars) to Luton Airport, and save time, and save money on your air fares...

:ok: ;) :E

[Whalerider]

As a passenger I refuse to fly from LHR unless absolutely necessary !

Is it any wonder that Emirates GLA-DXB service is such a success ? Inside a year they have gone from an A332 to a B773 on the route - why ? Because many of the pax, en-route to Oz - will avoid LHR at all costs !

How do you know you have arrived at a BAA airport - simple - the escalator / moving walkways are 'closed for maintenance'

[Skipness One Echo]

Couldn't help but notice that JAL are down to once daily from Heathrow to Tokyo? Thought that would be one of their top routes?

Also Virgin's new Cape Town service appears to be winter only. Is this intentional?

[Globaliser]

Also Virgin's new Cape Town service appears to be winter only. Is this intentional?I believe that this has long been a seasonal route.

[DarkStar]

Huge queues again over Easter Bank Holiday. Where were all the security staff? Heard that several pax collapsed due lengthy queues at Central Search at T4. No chairs of couse...too many shops. My pax were late due 'Security delays' and a lengthy delay ensued. Sadly, perhaps the Spanish could do a better job than BAA.:hmm:

[derekvader]

Also Virgin's new Cape Town service appears to be winter only. Is this intentional?

Has indeed been that way for years.

[Skipness One Echo]

Thanks chaps :)

[Off Stand]

I think that this maybe on the wrong forum, but I was wondering if those of you in the 'know' are aware of any ground staff jobs at LHR? Check in or dispatch are preferable. Or, if you could tell me of any useful websites to look at?

Thanks in advance for your time.

[PAXboy]

The primary employer is BAA plc, find their website, then address, then where they advertise.

There are many secondayr employers, the ground handling agents. If you tour the terminals (or wait in this one!) then you will get the list of names. Track down the adverts for each company.

Some carriers do their own ground handling and, once again, you can track down where they advertise. In all, there could easily be ten companies to monitor and apply to. Depending upon what you want to do - there might be more.

[MyData]

Must be a quiet news day...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5024770.stm

Discuss.

[apaddyinuk]

What annoys the tits out of me about the BAA and the congestion around the airport to get through the checkpoints is the lack of foresight.
There are numourous checkpoints all around yet they seem to insist that we use only two or three at a time. For example, on the south side there is the main one near Cargo which causes all the congestion but what about the one opposite the Hilton and the other one down by the Harrods Aviation? Barely used except by crew buses and small vans.
As for the central area, this one is a nightmare yet there is another one under t1 which is rarely used to full effect. Also, I recently was taken through the one at T5 which then brought us under tunnels to get to T3. Why dont they make more use of this one...Nightmare for the crew bus because it took forever but as for delivery trucks to the central area...perfect!!!

[Simwings]

This sounds a bit barmy...but funny none-the-less.

A direct extract from page 8 of the Daily Express (10/07/06)

____________________________________________________________ ____

"An incensed airline passenger who took Heathrow Airport to court after he missed a flight won an order to send bailiffs into the airport to recover goods to a value of £332 - his fare and other costs.

But security around the airport is so tight that the bailiffs have so far been unable to gain entry to carry out the job.

For six months Paul Raymond, 52, has tried to claim back the cost of a flight from Heathrow to Newcastle after he was delayed by stringent security checks at the airport.

"It's so frustrating, it just makes me sick" said Mr Raymond, of Sunderland, who now fears he may never see the money again.

"The Bailiff said he thought they were trying to pull a fast one, knowing they could hide behind security. What am I supposed to do when even the bailiffs can't get in?"

The British Airports Authority said last night that they were looking into the matter"

____________________________________________________________ __

All I can say about one man's fight to take down the big guys at Heathrow is good luck...he'll bl:mad: dy well need it!

[ExSimGuy]

As one who has flown through many airports - LHR, LGW, EDI, as well as airports in the US and the middle-east, LHR takes the biscuit.

I hope he manages to get some (albeit token) satisfaction. LHR security appears to have no consideration for getting passengers from "landside to airside". Despite the obvious reasons for getting pax to spend time airside (all the "shopping opportunities", and the revenue from the airside "so-called-duty-free" outlets that, despite the lack of UK VAT, and, in the case of the booze shops, the lack of excise duty, are hardly cheaper than UK high-street shops. Presumably, the difference goes in "ground rent" for the outlets which is charged by BAA)

It's a disgrace, an insult to the intelligence, just a way of screwing the travelling public.:mad:

And how much of this "bounty" goes to support air traffic control costs, emergency services, police security? Since it was privatised, LHR is just a cash-cow to the shareholders and a total abomination to the travelleing public (including the "departure tax" of around $50 longhaul, which is usually "hidden" in the cost of your ticket - check the "taxes" box on your ticket and ask what each one is!)

[/rant]

[PAXboy]

If I said that a BAA car park had too few lifts and payment machines, most would say that the old facilities have been overtaken by demand ...

I was delivering a pax to T3 today and had not been through T3 for a while. I was pleased to see a new car park and it was very well laid out with good markings. But ... you then found that there were not enough lifts. There are two lifts each at the North and South ends of the park, essentially North for Arrivals and South for Departures.

In the middle of the afternoon, the park was half full (I looked at all the floors and noted that the roof was not yet open for service) floors 1 + 2 were full, 3 had about 50% and 4 had half a dozen (and me!). Yet, the lifts to Departures were full and people waiting in the floor lobbies to get in. The lift cars state "Maximum 36 persons" OK and how many persons + trolley???? :rolleyes:

After delivering nephew to VS, I walked up the stairs as it was quicker. I then found the second deliberate error in their planning. That the only payment machines are on the 1st floor at the Arrivals end! So I walked down three floors (lifts too busy) and down the length of the building to find that the four payment machines had long queues and one of them was out of order - although it was being worked on. :*

Whilst in the queue, I asked an NCP attendant who was helping people to use the machines, if the machines took the BAA Worldpoints card (in my hand). He replied, "No, they only take Visa, Mastercard, American ..." :hmm: The machine made no reference to Worldpoints cards only 'follow up or discount cards'. I did give the machine the card but will have to check the account in a week, experience says that, although NCP do give Worldpoints, they only do so after a fight. (Yes, I know Worldpoints is pants but it's the onyl thing I get back from BAA) :sad:

So, a spanking new car park that has four lifts instead of six and four payment machines at one end, instead of four at each end. The park might be run by NCP but it is BAA that specify and this is a classic example of saving money on construction cost. A brand new park - and only half full - it was already generating queues for pax arriving, don't worry about the queues for check in and security. The departing pax take longer to get away and so detract further from their experience and encourage them not to use the airport again.

BAA really make it so difficult to say nice things about them. :ugh:

[ORAC]

The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,172-2285706,00.html).
...........A NEW runway at Heathrow is a more likely prospect after a government study found the air pollution problem around the airport was less serious than had been feared and could be overcome.....

Lord Soley, chairman of Future Heathrow, which campaigns for the airport’s expansion, said that the main source of nitrogen dioxide around the airport was from cars on the M4 and the airport’s access roads. A previous government study considered building a roof over a four-mile stretch of the M4 and installing vents to filter out nitrogen dioxide. Lord Soley said that emissions could also be reduced near the airport by moving most of its 40,000 parking spaces to derelict land north of the M4 beside the M25. A new monorail line would link the new car park to the terminals.

John Stewart, chairman of ClearSkies, which represents people living under Heathrow’s flight paths, said: “It looks like the third runway will pass the air pollution test but there will still be the problem of a new flight path blighting 150,000 residents.” ...........

[Groundloop]

So what's this "derelict land" then?

A quick look at Google Earth seems to show its all being used - industry, parkland, agriculture, etc.

[ALLDAYDELI]

a roof over the M4, yeah right.

[hafez]

Erm, Where are they going to put this third runway :bored:

[scroggs]

Here. (http://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/environment/planning/heathrow_airport/third_runway/lhr_third_runway_lg.jpg)

And the Roof over the M4 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3502341.stm). It's called a tunnel.

Scroggs

[hafez]

Oh dear God, Why knock down so many houses and hotels when they could just build a new airport somewhere else :p

[Skipness One Echo]

hafez

I guess you're not familiar with London? Are you serious? With Terminal 5 the biggest contruction project in living memory you want to move somewhere else? That is sooo not gonna happen.
The third runway will be built between 27R / 09L and the motorways to the north. The area is not heavily urbanised believe me I've been through most of it. The big problem will of course be all the NIMBYs who will be on the new flightpath.

[PAXboy]

Successive Brit governments bottled out of the decision to build third runway
BAA built T4 to make the demand for 3rd runway stronger
Successive Brit governments bottled out of the decision to build third runway
BAA built T5 to make the demand for 3rd runway stronger
Brit gov trying to do something
ad infinitum whilst all other European countries have already built more runways and/or new fields.

[ORAC]

Hmmm, thinking laterally, if they did build a 4 mile tunnel, instead of a putting a roof on it, then they´d have a nice 4 mile piece of straight motorway where they could build a nice new long runway........ :E

[PAXboy]

No comments on this place have been written during the recent hoo-hah as, in all probability, there was not much to be said! However, on Sunday 20th arriving into T1 from Berlin at about 21:00 ... the airport that was now 'running normally' certainly was!

The T1 baggage hall was awash with bags, dozens pulled off the carousels and sitting around on trolleys and cluttering up the hall, many with new routing labels on them.

The hall was packed and the escalator delivering more every minute. The indicator board (to advise which carousel) was full and four entries had several garbage characters so as to render the entry invalid. For example there is no carousel '54', although it might be helpful if they did have that many.

The board was not updated for nine minutes after I started watching it and then the four entries were replaced by 'Please Wait' for another eight minutes.

Yes, it was good to know that the airport was fully back to normal. Now to open the duty free ... and then :zzz:

[OltonPete]

Stolen from another forum but it seems the long rumoured new European
route from Edmonton (YEG) is Heathrow by Air Canada 767.

I believe it is 3 a week in the winter and daily from April.

As Mrs Pete has relatives in Alberta it has more than a passing interest
for me and I hope the service does well.

I believe that this is not the first time YEG has been connected to
LHR but the previous service ceased a while a go - was it an add on?

Pete

[WHBM]

I believe that this is not the first time YEG has been connected to
LHR but the previous service ceased a while a go - was it an add on?
Yes. Variations on joint with Calgary and Vancouver. There were even Air Canada services Vancouver-Edmonton-London with DC8s back in the 1960s.

[LGWAlan]

LHR-YEG 1235-1430 AC899
YRG-LHR 1835-1010 AC898

Ops B763 offering 212 seats

[Geffen]

Interesting news article here

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/heathrow-airport-news-290806a.htm

make of it what you will.

[BAforever]

Wouldnt the Govenment try and block such a move? With planning laws and such, Is this really likley? :ugh:

[Geffen]

I guess the govenment can protest. However, they cannnot force a company into spending millions on a project (2nd rwy SS) that the company doen't want to spend. Be interesting if the OfT decide to force a break up of the BAA whether SS would then build a runway that its customer's do not wish to pay for.
Or is all this just BA stating their preference?

[traveller5]

Heathrow breaks under the strain .... again ..... Poor BA!

Operational problems at Terminal 4 - 2 September
Terminal 4 is experiencing operational problems today as a result of severe congestion in the baggage system caused by the high volume of bags being processed. As a result the terminal building is heavily congested and check-in for the time being, has been suspended. BAA and British Airways are working closely together to resolve this issue and sincerely regret any inconvenience this is causing or may cause to passengers

[White Hart]

Terminal 4 is experiencing operational problems today as a result of severe congestion in the baggage system caused by the high volume of bags being processed.


They mean the baggage belt broke down :hmm:

[lexxity]

So just like MAN T3 yesterday morning then?:hmm:

Do we think

high volume of bags being processed.

means, because EVERYONE is now checking bags in?

[AvianceUK]

LOL!!

Happens every morning at CWL regardless!! Too many bags going through an inadequate system.....

I don't think the airport realize that increasing front of house capacity, means the back of house will suffer even more!!!!

LOL!!

LOL!!

LOL!!

Where do we get them from??!!

All the work going on at the moment is to accommodate pax, yet their bags go through the same old system!!!!! It will be updated, but will be the LAST thing to be updated!!!!

Oh joy, oh joy........:ugh:

[daz211]

happens at STN every night 30-40 flights arrive within an hour
between 2245 2345 from int dests and only 5 baggage belts
you wait ages for bags on a bad night upto 1hr 30min:ugh:

[hbomb]

I am travelling from Australia to Switzerland and France next week as are a few colleagues. All of us are frequent travellers and committed QF/BA customers. But this time some of us are defecting to SQ or CX so we can avoid Heathrow. Agents tell us that many others are doing the same thing. Since baggage/processing problems look set to continue indefinitely, are we the harbingers of a more or less permanent change to Heathrow's position as a primary choice for transit between Europe and the rest of the world? What might this mean for BA?

[Human Factor]

Who needs a strike to disrupt the operation..... :E

[skyman771]

I am travelling from Australia to Switzerland and France next week as are a few colleagues. All of us are frequent travellers and committed QF/BA customers. But this time some of us are defecting to SQ or CX so we can avoid Heathrow. Agents tell us that many others are doing the same thing.
Wish I'd done the same!!, did NCL-LHR-HKG-SYD & NRT-LHR-NCL in August & ONLY place where there was undue hassle & delays in excess of what are now normal security checks was LHR !! as ever an absolute nightmare (cumulative 'LHR transit time' for the two visits was 9.5 hours !).:ugh:

[42ongo]

I have some colleagues from Asia coming to our office at LHR later this month and we are going to CDG together the following day
We have our hotac at CDG but they want to take the Eurostar/rail all the way instead of flying
which means going from LHR- Feltham-Waterloo then Gard de Nord in Paris and then back to CDG by rail (maybe at least 6 hours door to door )they insist this will be quicker and less hassle than getting the tube 1 stop to the central area then getting on a flt LHR-CDG

Im going to take the flt by way of an experiment I wonder who will arrive 1st and in better shape

[Skylion]

Re the third runway between the A 4 and M4, the original 1947/8 LHR plans had a triangle of runways north of the A4, to complete a total of 9 possible runways. The route the M4 now takes was specifically designed to be the northern boundary of the airport. Sipson and Harmondsworth were both to be demolished and this threat was only removed around 1953 when it was decided that LHR need not be so large after all. Bits and pieces of the 6 in the star of David pattern south of the A 4 are still visible from air to ground photos. The central area development progressively encroached upon most of these, leaving the current 2 parallels and notional 3rd which became inhibited with the opening of T4 and of course eventually closed a couple or so years ago, although it still exists.
The folks in the immediate post war period had great vision but then the politicians, accountants and spend on the welfare state got the better of them.

[striparella]

When everythings going good, LHR is one of the best airports in the world. One minute of disruption and the whole place turns to pot!

Yes it has it's crap moments but i have a secret love for this place - there's no where like it in the world!!

[eidah]

I have some colleagues from Asia coming to our office at LHR later this month and we are going to CDG together the following day
We have our hotac at CDG but they want to take the Eurostar/rail all the way instead of flying
which means going from LHR- Feltham-Waterloo then Gard de Nord in Paris and then back to CDG by rail (maybe at least 6 hours door to door )they insist this will be quicker and less hassle than getting the tube 1 stop to the central area then getting on a flt LHR-CDG

Im going to take the flt by way of an experiment I wonder who will arrive 1st and in better shape

please let us know how it goes would be interesting to see which is easier.

[MaxRange120]

This news may be of some use as a get out of jail card when the lines to the car park have got to long to get in.
MR120:ok:
Tube line reopens to terminal 4
Tube services to Heathrow Airport's terminal 4 have resumed after 20 months of work to extend the line.
A section of the Piccadilly Line closed in January 2005 while a junction was built to connect the rail link to the new terminal five building.
Passengers can now travel via Tube from Hatton Cross to terminal 4.
Mike Challis, of London Underground, said it was an important milestone in the project to extend the line to terminal 5.
Station upgrade
He said: "I'd like to thank... passengers for their patience during the essential 20-month closure.
"The construction work now completed means we are one step closer to a brand new Tube line for a brand new terminal by 2008."
In order to join up the Piccadilly Line with the T5 extension a new rail junction has been built west of terminals 1,2,3, where the new Piccadilly Line tunnels would join the existing Heathrow loop.
During the 20-month closure the terminal 4 station has been upgraded with extra security and a new customer announcement system.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/london/5352360.stm
Published: 2006/09/17 09:01:38 GMT
© BBC MMVI

[ALLDAYDELI]

Good news! I did note that the T4-HX-T4 rail replacement buses were still in opertion this morning..??...

[MrBernoulli]

Maybe an overlap period until all have got used to there being a tube service agan?

[woolyalan]

Just heard on radio 2, Terminal closed while police deal with an incident

anymore info would be appreciated

Cheers

Wooly

[ALLDAYDELI]

Heathrow Security Alert
=========================
Operators Are Advised That Terminal 2 At London Heathrow Airport
Has Been Evacuated Due To A Security Alert.
.
There Has Been A Small Reduction In Arrival Capacity, Delays Are
Approx 20 Minutes
Reuters report that a man was seen running into to T2 and dropping a piece of baggage by a check in counter and running out again. A "nearby" office block also evacuated Police have said. Seems as it was suspect baggage, being placed by a person behaving strangely.

[rmac]

I have two staff catching OS flight to VIE, waited 3.5 hours unsuccessfully for contact with OS. It may be a little more disrupted than 20min delays.

[Aeropig78]

Passengers unable to deboard flights and check in is closed as well. Some flights have been waiting on remote stands for almost 3 hours now.

I dont think its affecting other terminals though.

[flowman]

Maximum inbound delay is currently 52 minutes (one flight). Average inbound delay is around 25 minutes.
T2 is being used for parking but still evacuated, pax are being bused to other teminals. This is bound to cause disruption. There are no outbound flow restrictions so I am unable to give any idea of the departure situation.
flowman

[Aeropig78]

You wont have any problems leaving Heathrow, as you wont have any passengers

[White Hart]

glad I'm not there today - no Costa Coffee?? - how can I be expected to work without being pumped full of (decent-tasting, albeit expensive) caffeine? :}

BTW, Flowman - nowadays, you don't even need any IFPS/CFMU issued restrictions to cause chaos at LL; no available gates, lack of tugs/dispatchers/places to hold waiting inbounds, and the inevitable and extensive work-in-progress will all combine to create a plethora of delays for both inbounds and outbounds. Guaranteed! - and if you get a bit of bad weather thrown in for good measure, then you're completely ******. :ok:

[srs what?]

Reports are a man ran in to check-in and left a package.

I know it was being treated as 'Act of Agression - Ground' which is the highest level of threat for an unattended bag.

[non iron]

Yesterday, Monday. five min needed between Compt and Olny departures, out of Ltn and a check "can you fly this sid?"
Assumed some radar out, maybe not . .

[Yellow Snow]

Can one of the mods please explain why this has ben moved from news to Airlines, Airports & Routes. How can this be anything other than news??:ugh: :ugh:

[Alpine Flyer]

T2 is being used for parking but still evacuated, pax are being bused to other teminals. This is bound to cause disruption. There are no outbound flow restrictions so I am unable to give any idea of the departure situation.
flowman

Had the misfortune to arrive at T2 yesterday. Parked at the terminal but received instruction not to disembark pax before even docking.

Acc. to our handling agent BAA refused to take pax with a bus to another terminal, so they had to sit in the airplane for 2 hours after block on. They were then allowed to wait in the pier until the main terminal building was cleared.

No information at all was given to pax waiting for the outbound flight outside T2 and no information on how long the closure might take or even "next info at xxxx hrs" was available airside.

According to the handling agent lack of security staff paired with very intense security checks caused further massive delays for pax entering the pier after the terminal had been re-opened.

I had always thought the English were good at organizing and improvising. That was a bit shaken yesterday. Letting pax wait in an airplane for two hours for being unable or unwilling to bus them somewhere is not a sign of good organization. There sure must be some other pax drop-off points around LHR.

[White Hart]

..and if you get a bit of bad weather thrown in for good measure, then you're completely ******. :ok:

and, as if by magic!! :) ...

how's it going this morning, then?

[PAXboy]

I cannot comment on the weather, as my friend's departure was delayed by technical matters.

However ... whilst waiting for the flight to go (4 hours late and counting) I noticed another problem with the new T3 car park. I commented on the poor lifts when I first used it in July. Today, the two llifts at the South end were flashing 'ALARM' on their display screen (the one inside the car) alternately with "LIFT UNDER FIRE CONTROL" or something similar. In fact the lifts were operating normally and continued with this erroneous message across the three hours or so that I was in the terminal.

Another triumph of product selection by BAA. :rolleyes:

[White Hart]

Whilst we're on the subject of BAA...

I understand that HAL has recently undergone a staff streamlining exercise - ie same amount of work, but less workers to do it. So, for those of us who use Heathrow regularly as either paxs or Operators, has this exercise been a success in terms of improving the service provided by HAL? Just exactly what areas of HAL have been affected by this streamlining?

From my own involvement (from the ATC environment) I would say that the level of service has slipped down the ladder somewhat, especially in the realms of Stand/Gates Allocation - although I also believe that this may be due in part to BA having their grubby fingers in the pie, and mucking up what used to be a more efficient service. :* So, if there's any BA Stand Allocators reading this - next time you want to swap gates around, then at least have the courtesy to tell HAL SAU and/or ATC about what you're doing before you do it! :mad:

and with regards to HAL - cutting your staff without reducing equivalent workload is a recipe for disaster. People can only do so much - you just end up burning out those that are left in the firing line. And don't think that 'offloading' some of the workload to some other cheapo two-bit outfit who cannot provide a similar or better standard of service is going to curry favour, either (except with HAL beancounters). It doesn't - it just makes a bad situation even worse. A Company's staff is it's greatest and strongest asset (or at least it used to be)


That's my gripe out of the way - any more for any more??

[Phantom99]

how's it going this morning, then?

Well, we were issuing EATs of over 65 mins at one point, and holding at LOGAN, while other sectors were holding at BEWLI and POMPI to name a few...but credit to the guys at TC and EGLL, once the fog lifted delays recuced dramatically.

[Musket90]

White Hart - It's not just HAL who are "streamlining" it is affecting the other BAA airports too. It's concentrating on the Customer Service areas which includes those involved with the terminal and airfield operation. Trouble is the people doing the streamlining seem to have absolutely no idea about the day to day activities and have no desire to understand the detail of what goes on. BAA are going downhill just like morale and loyalty of many of their experienced staff.

[HZ123]

M90 & White Hart; Airport and airlines merely reflect what the business costs are and aim to reduce it, making more for their shareholders which to be fair is the object of the exercise. I accept that BA do dictate some of the actions at LHR to their advantage. That said LHR is a dump, it has been for the 36 years that I have worked at it and you are correct it is getting worse. The concept of airlines now is that you are taking nothing more than a glorified bus or train service, take a look at the Uk train services and central stations. They say it all.

[White Hart]

"Airport and airlines merely reflect what the business costs are and aim to reduce it, making more for their shareholders which to be fair is the object of the exercise."

HZ

From another viewpoint it could be argued that, in a customer service industry, looking after your customers was the object of the exercise. After all, reducing staff in key areas = a quick cash-save on paper, but a reduced/poorer service = less/no customers = less/no profit = less/no payout for shareholders.

I do agree that LHR is a sh*te-hole (with some planes), and yes it does need money spent on it to improve things materially. But the staff should not be the first option for reduction when cost-cutting is to be made! The same principle also applies to the airlines, both in front-line and Operational support areas. Make cuts here and the service suffers, and so, ultimately, does the profit. What's the point of a nice shiny new product if you've already driven your prospective punters away by the bucketload? How many people do you see on these forums, or in my/your own day-to-day life, praising the merits of LHR? Erm...........

That's what really says it all. :sad:

[True Blue]

I have had a strong interest in Lhr ever since BA withdrew the Bfs route and Bd moved their service to Bhd. Those of us who would like to see a Bfs service return are told that Lhr is full. That has been the story for years. If Lhr is full, how come existing airlines can add flights/new routes and new airlines are still able to get in there? The most recent example of that is the explosion of new services to India. If something is full, it's full, except Lhr, which even though it is supposed to have been full for years, seems to be able to get fuller!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????

True Blue

[25check]

It puzzles me that Heathrow movement levels have never got back to pre 2001 levels even though, as you say, it is said to be full. The daily record hasn't been broken for ages, I think it is around 1370. This Friday there were only 1329 moves - and Friday is supposed to be one of the busiest days!

Also, there was a time when you almost never saw Regional Jets at LHR, which suggests pax loads are decreasing on some routes, presumably due to the low cost carriers taking business away.

[airhumberside]

LHR isn't full but most of the spare slots are late in the evening or on a Saturday afternoon.

[Geffen]

25check:

Heathrow is above the pre 2001 movements
Total movements 2000 466,815
Total movements 2001 463,568
Total movements 2005 477,884
I stand to be corrected on the busiest day but I believe it was in July 2004 and stands at 1382 movements.
Remember the place is capped at 480,000 flights a year so there is not that much room left, approx 5 flights a day!
Movement figures from http://www.airports.org/cda/aci/display/main/aci_content.jsp?zn=aci&cp=1-5-54-57_9_2__

[Skipness One Echo]

Why do BA operate long haul from THREE seperate terminals at Heathrow. What was the logic in moving LAX / SFO / NRT / JNB from Terminal 4 all the way across to Terminal 1.
And why on Earth use Terminal 3 for only TWO services in the whole day to MIA?
Perhaps they really are overstaffed?

[TopBunk]

Why do BA operate long haul from THREE seperate terminals at Heathrow.

Because they can't operate all the services from just one.

What was the logic in moving LAX / SFO / NRT / JNB from Terminal 4 all the way across to Terminal 1.

See above. More efficient use of the terminals also - I believe that the routes moved also have quite high numbers of transfer traffic, so arriving/departing from T1 makes sense.

And why on Earth use Terminal 3 for only TWO services in the whole day to MIA?

See above. Also the timing of the MIA schedules allow dedicated aircraft to the route (ie aircraft departs mid morning for MIA, arriving back early next day, then goes back to MIA etc), minimising the towing of aircraft.

Perhaps they really are overstaffed?

Not relevant.

[Skipness One Echo]

Disagree. Overstaffing is endemic at BA. As a business they are fat and they know it. they have been shedding for years and are still lethargic.

I don't beleive that there is not a single available gate in the whole of BA at Heathrow that they could operated one 747-400 to Miami from, either from Terminal 1 or Terminal 4.
Perhaps they are missing the old BOAC days at Terminal 3.
It's mess. Roll on T5

[840]

I don't beleive that there is not a single available gate in the whole of BA at Heathrow that they could operated one 747-400 to Miami from, either from Terminal 1 or Terminal 4.
Perhaps they are missing the old BOAC days at Terminal 3.
It's mess. Roll on T5

I always thought they kept their presence there so that they could maintain a say in the running of T3?

[bycrewlgw]

Or maybe due to the fact that American operate out of there?? Wild guess lol!

[White Hart]

Or maybe due to the fact that American operate out of there?? Wild guess lol!

My missus (AA, T3 LHR) seems to remember that, several years ago, AA & BA looked at the possibility of merger, but the plan was scrubbed (In part, I seem to remember that this was due to incompatible check-in/weight & balance systems, and some objection at Government/regulatory level - can't recall the exact details). Idea was to initially crosstrain staff, then get BA to handle AA at LHR, and vice-versa in MIA, then to spread the concept across the network anywhere where AA/BA shared airport facilities. (probably yet another sh*t idea to save money at the staff's expense :hmm: )

so maybe not such a wild guess after all?

As for BA overstaffing - they could sure do with some dispatchers and tug crews at the mo - where have they all gone? Skipness - don't worry, I'm sure you'll see some staff 'slimming exercises' coming to the fore once the move to T5 gets under way.

[Railgun]

As for BA overstaffing - they could sure do with some dispatchers and tug crews at the mo - where have they all gone? Skipness - don't worry, I'm sure you'll see some staff 'slimming exercises' coming to the fore once the move to T5 gets under way.

They have all taken early retirement.

[White Hart]

Railgun

What - all (conveniently) at the same time? Sounds like 'early retirement' was the lesser evil of two options :rolleyes: . Out of interest, with the inclement weather possibly not too far away, has the same 'option' been given to the staff who take care of aircraft de-icing, or is that department fully staffed? Lack of de-icing rigs is a common excuse cited to ATC as a reason for on-stand delay in wintertime. (bet they never tell the paxs that, though!)

[Railgun]

White Hart

Well with the new retirement changes anyone wanting to get out early had to leave by the end of september (when the new rules came into force). The BA news has has pages full of retirements for the last few weeks.

I believe LHR is going to a central dispatch setup sometime soon which shud help change things.

[White Hart]

I believe LHR is going to a central dispatch setup sometime soon which shud help change things.

Hi Railgun - Any ideas when/where?

Also, does this include the dept which handles T1/T4 gates allocations(:rolleyes: !)? (just who is exactly doing this task, by the way?) Service from this Department has, at times, been dire over the last week. I understand that HAL outsourced part of the gates allocations task as part of their own restructuring (staff reduction, to be more precise :hmm: ). End result is too many cooks, procedures ignored, and far too many mistakes. :mad:

The scenario is set to get far more confusing once the AOs start relocating to different Terminals - I hope the SAU and BA have resolved their problems before then.

[crazypilot]

On ATI yesterday


British Airways chief executive Willie Walsh has warned the increased approach separation distance required for the Airbus A380 means that the ultra-large airliner will hamper rather than help London Heathrow’s runway capacity problems.

Walsh believes it is imperative the government quickly commits to mixed-mode operations, and sets out plans to open a new runway at the airport in 2015.

Speaking at the Royal Aeronautical Society in London yesterday, Walsh said “the A380 sales talk” indicated the 550-seater “was the likeliest short-term relief in terms of runway pressure” for Heathrow “providing effectively three slots for the price of two”. However, Walsh adds he doubts the 550-seater “can bring Heathrow the capacity benefits originally advertised”.

He says: “Airbus has already conceded that the aircraft’s wake vortex problems are likely to lead to separations of an extra 2nm [3.7km] for at least the first couple of years of operation.

“For Heathrow, that means that the A380’s introduction is more likely to decrease capacity than increase it. And even if separation distances are eventually reduced, the likely slow growth of A380s in service will postpone any meaningful capacity advantage until well into the next decade.”

BAA says that it does not believe that the arrival of the A380 at Heathrow will reduce capacity. It adds that "Airbus is still working on the vortex issue" and that "it is too early to know what the outcome will be".

Walsh adds it is “absolutely clear that further action is necessary” and that a firm timetable must be quickly forthcoming for the introduction of mixed-mode operations (ie simultaneous take-off and landings on both runways) at Heathrow and the construction of a third runway – “R3”.

Heathrow currently handles some 474,000 movements per annum, and the switch to mixed-mode operations could boost annual movements by 50,000-70,000. Walsh estimates the addition of a 2,000m (6,560ft) long runway would enable movements to increase to 650,000-700,000 annually.

“With the A380 threatening to cut hourly capacity, it is absolutely essential that we press ahead with mixed mode at the first opportunity. That way we can accommodate the A380 without reducing capacity,” says Walsh. “Once mixed mode is established, [Heathrow operator] BAA should apply for the 480,000 movement limit at the airport to be lifted.”

A UK Government air transport white paper published in 2003 proposed that mixed-mode operations and the construction of a short third runway be studied for Heathrow, subject to certain noise and local air quality conditions being met. A progress report is expected to be published next month, and Walsh says it must contain “a commitment to press ahead with the expansion strategy decided three years ago”.

Walsh’s proposed timetable calls for a government decision to proceed with the mixed mode and an “R3” by the end of next year. He envisages that mixed-mode could be introduced in the 2010-2013 timeframe, while a final go ahead for “R3” after the planning enquiry in 2013 would enable the new runway to open in 2015.

Walsh says that while the timescale could be viewed by some as “tight” he believes it “conforms with what was set out in the white paper, and is eminently achievable provided all the partners in the project give it the priority it so clearly deserves”


Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

[AbeamPoints]

Umm, sod expanding Heathrows capacity and open a new runway somewhere near London.

BA is only financialy viable because of its stranglehold in LHR. But that is no reason to increase capacity at an airport where you can't get to, can't park and can't get a coffee without paying a nose bleeding fortune.

There are other runways.

AP

[25check]

Doesn't sound like BA will be ordering A380's anytime soon....!

[manintheback]

So when BAA build another runway they wont operate it to max capacity as soon as possible resulting in the same congestion as now? Very funny.

[anotherthing]

An extra runway running at extra capacity... I personally do not think we have enough sky to do that; the TMA is fairly congested already!

[DTVAirport]

A couple of queries, does anyone know where I can find an up-to-date aerial map of London Heathrow? Preferably not a satellite image.

Also, why is Terminal 5 so much bigger than the rest?

[Robertkc]

A couple of queries, does anyone know where I can find an up-to-date aerial map of London Heathrow? Preferably not a satellite image.
This might be of use: Link (http://www.airport-technology.com/projects/heathrow5/heathrow58.html)
Also, why is Terminal 5 so much bigger than the rest?
When Phase 2 is complete, T5 will have a capacity to handle 30million pax/year. T1 can handle about 25million currently. Obviously, they were going to make T5 as big as was possible within the physical constraints they had.

[DTVAirport]

That is the type of photo I'm looking for, but I need the whole airport rather than just part of it.

[backseatjock]

Anyone know the cause of T1 departures being evacuated today circa 1330hrs?

Very efficient evacuation by police, firstly of area surrounding security entrance and latterly of whole floor, including the upstairs restaurant and coffee shop area. From my seat by the window in Costa Coffee, saw a man detained by entrance to security just after I spotted a woman who looked to be running towards terminal exit, seemingly with pushchair and child.
Remember thinking this a little odd, at the time.

Woman reported by other evacuated pax and BA check-in staff to have been seen in the back of police van with armed guard - man last seen being handcuffed.

I know this an all-too-regular occurrence and have witnessed smaller scale incidents like this before, but this one seemed a couple of extra rungs up the security ladder. I am not a news reporter, just a very regular flyer who works in the industry and whose departing girlfriend turned a whiter shade of pale!

Job well done by the police, who once again demonstrated how lucky we are in the UK as they firmly and effectively evacuated the terminal, preventing any panic, just as the Sunday afternoon biz was beginning.

[Dan Air 87]

I came in from HKG with Virgin last week with the 0500 arrival; en route we were told that we would not be allowed to land until nearly 0600 as it was not our turn on the rota. I noticed today that at LHR T4, BA had flights arriving from 0445 onwards. I would appreciate being enlightened about this rota for early morning arrivals.

[Hotel Mode]

Its not a rota but each company only has a fixed number of night slots per season. Its done on a sort of points system and also includes take offs. I believe that a 744 arrival is 3 points ish and a departure 4 whereas a 777 is 2 and 3 (all approximate but you get the idea) If a company exceeds the quota for the season they lose rights to night slots in the future. What has probably happened is that Virgin have used a few points up with delayed evening departures taking off in the "night" period and are now trying to reduce the night arrivals to keep slots in the future. So the explanation was stretching the story a bit. BA delayed the BKK arrival last season until after 0600 but this was planned and pax were informed well in advance. Also if some of the night arrivals look like taking a delay that takes them near to 0600 they may be asked to delay by a further 10-15 mins to avoid wasting a night movement.

[Geffen]

The press appear to believe that approval to expand Heathrow is imminent. Be interesting to see what sought of action HACAN and co. will try.

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/heathrow-airport-news-091206a.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2493173_1,00.html

About time that Heathrow was allowed to attract more flights and therefore compete with EDDF and LFPG.

LFPG 522,619
EDDF 490,147
EGLL 477,884

(Movement totals from 2005)

[GBALU53]

Are British Midland dropping some schedules out of Heathrow?

There are strong talks going on a the moment of an Airbus operation down to Jersey so could this have some effect for them to keep slots???.

Or have they been given some more slots to get the Heathrow-Jersey route open again??:ok: :ok:

We have not heard the full story but the aircraft would be night stopping in Jersey, so on the basis of that the departure from Jersey would be at schedule opening of 0700 local which would give an ETA into Heathrow of 0800 local time.:ok: :ok:

I would have at a guess would mean it would be operating at a premium rate landing slot?

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Nobody spotted the deliberate mistake in the times article?
they think ATC can handle about an extra 270 flights an hour off the new runway

G-I-B

[Geffen]

Ahh the 270 rate is by utilising multiple landings and departures, formation if you will!

[ORAC]

Stand by for further airport chaos in Christmas getaway (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,173-2502552,00.html)

Heathrow and Gatwick airports are preparing for a repeat of the chaotic scenes in August when they introduce emergency measures to cope with the Christmas exodus, which begins in earnest tomorrow.

More than half a million people are due to pass through Heathrow between Friday and Sunday. Next week Thursday, Friday and Saturday will also be extremely busy, with the peak on Friday, when 194,000 people will pass through the airport, 30,000 more than on a normal day.

BAA, which owns Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, fears that its security screening system will be unable to cope with the extra numbers and has put up marquees at Heathrow’s Terminal 4 to cope with the overflow. At Gatwick, BAA has told airlines to expect 100-minute delays for passengers going through security.......

The system was already struggling at Heathrow yesterday, with queues for check-in and security much longer than normal at Terminal 4. Virgin Atlantic said that there were very long queues at Gatwick.......

A spokesman for Virgin Atlantic said that passengers at Gatwick yesterday had been forced to queue back to the railway station.......

[backseatjock]

More Heathrow comments, one good and two others, questions.

First of all congrats to the security team in T3 Tuesday morning. Travelled out on VS21 and was faced with a huge security queue mid-morning. But well done to all on duty at that time - bodies kept shuffling along at a steady pace and a fairly good atmosphere due to a large number of staff chatting to pax and helping those with time problems.

A question though. As a very regular traveller I am quite used to different levels of security at airports worldwide. The varied interpretations of what should be the same security requirements at Heathrow, do puzzle me.

Most of my travel is through T1 or T4, where all passengers have to remove all shoes and, more often that not liquids have to be placed, in their little plastic bags of course, in a security scan tray.

Over in T3 Wednesday, a notice advised that passengers 'may be asked' to remove shoes for screening, but this was not compulsory for all and my small transparent plastic bag containing lethal toothpaste, lip balm and eye drops did not have to be placed in a separate tray.

Are we seeing a further relaxing of the rules or is this the norm?

And, with inbound and outbound passengers separated, does anyone know why there is a need for the additional security check at top of departure pier in T1 (ahead of gates 26 etc).

Can often by a very long queue here, which usually leads to the duty security staff simply opening the barrier and letting pax through without checking at all! Either the security check is needed (I would personally question that in this case) or not. If the answer is the former, surely everyone should be subjected to checking.

[PAXboy]

The BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/16/newsid_4035000/4035801.stm) have this item from their On This Day pages:

1955: Queen opens London Airport terminal
The Queen has inaugurated new buildings in the centre of London Airport, part of a new complex designed to handle a growing number of air passengers.

Her Majesty arrived by car with the Duke of Edinburgh and was greeted by a guard of honour made up of air crews from the British and Commonwealth airlines, headed by BOAC Captain JT Percy.

This was, of course, the Queen's building.

[egnxema]

I have been asked to do a SWOT (Strengths/Weaknesses/Opportunities/Threats) Analysis from a passenger perspective at Heathrow.
What would you say are Heathrow's
Strengths?
Weaknesses?
Opportunities?
Threats?
As a passenger, or also, if you work in any of the Terminals, from an airline/airport employee perspective?
Thanks for your input folks! :ok:



As always, search is your friend.

[Red Four]

EGLL 110920Z 23029G48KT 9999 BKN015 11/09 Q1005 NOSIG

Anyone missing runway 23?

[point5]

From a controllers point of view... nop! Not at all! :ok:

[BEagle]

Last week I had to go to a meeting in London, then on to Frankfurt. Normally, neither wild horses nor an offer involving Cameron Diaz and warm baby oil would drag me to LHR, but on this occasion I had no option....

Drove to LHR, then to the expensive long term car park. The trip in the bus from the long term car park to T2 seemed worse than I remembered, including a tour of various dingy caverns under T1.

Tried to check in my suitcase, only to be told I was too early for my later flight, so I had to pay £6 for the privilege of 'storing' my case for a few hours... Then followed the signs for the 'Heathrow Express'. A seemingly endless trudge along miles of corridors, then the payment machine.

LHR to Chancery Lane, cheapest return seat? £37!! Utterly outrageous - that's at least 8 times the equivalent cost at Frankfurt - which has a far more reliable and efficient transport system.
Finally returned to the airport after my meeting. Another endless walk and then the queue through security. Unlike sensible countries, the Blairite Republic requires you to take your shoes off - but won't allow them to be put into the trays. Nor do they have any shoe horns to assist you when putting your footware back on again afterwards. The flight itself was late due to LHR congestion (predictably) - Frankfurt seemed quite straightforward in comparison.

The return flight some days later was delayed as well. The queue through passport control was frankly ridiculous, this pathetic airport really cannot cope. Then out into the cold and wet (even BHX has bus shelters) to wait for the bus to the long term car park and my escape from the utterly absurd rip-off which is the whole Thiefrow travelling experience.

It will hopefully be a very long time before I'm subjected to the chaotic daylight robbery of Thiefrow again. For me it's Birmingham every time!

If Red Ken really expects to attract people to the profligate nonsense of the 2012 Olympic Games - to pay through the nose to watch a few sweaty oafs running, jumping and throwing things, he should first take a very big stick to the people who run the sorry affair which is LHR.

Still, at least I didn't have to risk travelling with ba!

[Globaliser]

Then followed the signs for the 'Heathrow Express'. A seemingly endless trudge along miles of corridors, then the payment machine.

LHR to Chancery Lane, cheapest return seat? £37!! Utterly outrageous - that's at least 8 times the equivalent cost at Frankfurt - which has a far more reliable and efficient transport system.What on earth possessed you to take the HEX if you were going to Chancery Lane? You needed the Piccadilly Line direct to Holborn, plus either a change to the Central Line for one stop to Chancery Lane, or - if you wished to get 5 minutes' worth of fresh-ish air - a brisk walk along Holborn.

With a pre-pay Oyster card, the return trip would have cost you no more than £7. If you started from Heathrow after 0930, it would have been price-capped at £6.20 on the Oyster card.

And the journey would probably have taken you no longer than doing it via Paddington on the HEX. That is not the best answer for all journeys into town, particularly if you don't have heavy baggage.

In addition, if you paid £37, it looks like you were paying £29 for the HEX return, plus the (deliberately punitive) cash single fare of £4 each way for the Tube journey. You can't blame Heathrow for the latter bit, as that's imposed by Uncle Ken on everyone who uses the Tube.

Frankly, it is difficult to think of a more expensive way to get to your meeting and back by public transport, even if one tried to spend as much money as possible - other than to have bought a first class return on the HEX.

[Skipness One Echo]

The Heathrow Express is a major rip off. The Heathrow Connect is actually way cheaper, just as modern and comfortable and the only 5 - 10 mins longer tops?
And the Tube ain't great but it is cheap with OYSTER !!!

BEWARE THE HEATHROW EXPRESS.
Why would you use it anyway? Pretentious and stuck up staff seem to think they are working for a high class airline not 15 mins delaying FGW trains into London. Remember, you still need to change at Paddington regardless....

( end rant )

[brian_dromey]

LHR to Chancery Lane, cheapest return seat? £37!! Utterly outrageous - that's at least 8 times the equivalent cost at Frankfurt - which has a far more reliable and efficient transport system.

It will hopefully be a very long time before I'm subjected to the chaotic daylight robbery of Thiefrow again. For me it's Birmingham every time!

to pay through the nose to watch a few sweaty oafs running, jumping and throwing things, he should first take a very big stick to the people who run the sorry affair which is LHR.

If you travel you should do some research....its not that hard, try the national rail journey planner, or similar. It will give you lots if options to get where you want to go. In my experience once you plan correctly and have a plan B things cant go too wrong. Its common sense.

Again in my experience LHR is not that bad. You just need to be organised and pay careful attention to where you are going. If you tried paying attention and not expect everythinh to be handed to you on a plate, you might do a little better.

"Sweaty Oafs"...dont get me started on you. Who the hell do you think you are???? Do you realise how hard these athletes work to get to where they are? I didnt think do. Just because you wear a suit to work and have a company car dosent make you better than anybody else. Im sure many of the so called "sweaty oafs" would have had enough sense to read their ticket condtions and check-in times and found a more cost-effective way to their destination.

May I suggest youy get out of your SUV for a while and realise for just one second that the world does not revolve around you and what YOU want. I wont just be LHR you will find more pleasent, it will be life!

[StuartJB]

A series of talks is being held at Heathrow on various aspects of the airport past, present and future. Although the first talk on the history of Heathrow is almost full, there are several more if PPRune members would be interested:

Tuesday 27 February 2007 – 6.30pm – Christian Bonard, Environment Manager, Terminal 5
‘T5 and the Environment’ – BAA is transforming the ColneValley into a fantastic green space for local residents. Find out more about this and other construction mitigation measures at the T5 site.

Tuesday 27 March 2007 – 6.30pm – George Cook, General Manager – Airside Projects, BAA
‘The A380 at Heathrow’ – Heathrow will be one of the first three airports in the world to receive the new A380. Learn about the changes BAA has made to make Heathrow ready.

Tuesday 24 April 2007 – 6.30pm – Martyn Jeffrey, General Manager, NATS Heathrow and Richard Smith, Infrastructure and Compliance Manager, BAA
‘Air Traffic Control and Airfield Operations’ – Air Traffic Control and Airfield Operations play a crucial role in the running of Heathrow. Learn more about how they work together to guide aircraft safely.

Tuesday 29 May 2007 – 6.30pm – John Lewis, Head of Framework Archaeology
‘Archaeology at Terminal 5’ – Discover how people used the landscape within the boundaries of Heathrow for 8000 years, from the time of hunter gatherers to the earliest farmers.

Tuesday 26 June 2007 – 6.30pm – Rob Stewart, Commercial Director, Terminal 5
‘T5 – Making History’ – A new landmark for London, T5 is set to be a template for building projects of the future. Find out more about the construction of the new terminal.

These talks will all start at 6.30pm, with refreshments available beforehand, and will take place at the HeathrowAcademy on Newall Road, UB3 5AP. If you are interested in attending, please call us on 020 8745 5791 or email [email protected]. We look forward to seeing you.

[egnxema]

I am trying to find information regarding the construction work going on in front of Terminal 3. Since the moving of the multi-story car park, I am lookinr for info on what is going to be put in the space left by the old car park.

Any pointers most welcome.

[LB1985]

I believe at Terminal 3, the building is going to be extended out further, in the direction of the old carpark.

[BEagle]

The reason I didn't take the Piccadilly line was the usual one - delays were announced due to engineering works on the day in question. Also I didn't have the time to get from Chancery Lane to Thiefrow in the time the Underground takes. And I can assure you that I researched my travel options very carefully - normally I drive to Didcot and use the train, but as I was going to be away for a few days, I wasn't going to leave my car in the station car park...

Whether its 'signal failures', 'late running engineering works', the wrong type of snow on the line or whatever, the Underground is a frequent source of misery and frustration.

Whichever way you look at it, £37 return from Thiefrow to Chancery Lane is completely outrageous. Added to the frankly awful experience of travel from that wretched airport, it's even worse.

As for the profligate waste of money to hold the Olympic Games in 2012, I stand by my earlier comment. Billions of pounds for a few people to run, jump, splash about and throw things is excessive - particularly when the business case is ropey.

And I drive a 354bhp sports car, NOT a Chelsea Tractor!

[egnxema]

Oh BEagle - aren't you a bundle of fun today. So what DO you like about London?

[BEagle]

So what DO you like about London? - Well, Egnxema, since you ask - the view of it in my rear view mirror!

"What would you say are Heathrow's:
Strengths? - NONE whatsoever.

Weaknesses? - Absurdly expensive, difficult car parking and appallingly scruffy. Hardly a show piece for visitors arriving in the UK for the first time.

Opportunities? - Plenty of scope for large scale rebuilding and redecorating! It's a shabby dump which cannot hold a candle to decent modern airports, such as Munich.

Threats?" - Anyone living 50 or more miles to the west of the place will one day realise that regional airports are vastly more convenient for most intra-European travel - and will choose NOT to fly from Thiefrow.

[Globaliser]

The reason I didn't take the Piccadilly line was the usual one - delays were announced due to engineering works on the day in question. Also I didn't have the time to get from Chancery Lane to Thiefrow in the time the Underground takes.
...
Whichever way you look at it, £37 return from Thiefrow to Chancery Lane is completely outrageous.It certainly is. But even if you had to take the HEX + Tube, you did choose to pay over the odds for the trip. There was no reason for you to pay £4 each way for the Tube trips. So (assuming that you did your research as thoroughly as you say) that was a purely voluntary donation by you to TfL's coffers.

Obviously, without knowing about the delays that day, I can't say whether I would have made the same decision as you. But if there had been no engineering works, I don't think that it would have taken you any longer to go by Tube from Chancery Lane to Heathrow than it would have taken you to Tube to Paddington and then to take the HEX. Of course, your researches would have uncovered the fact that HEX + Tube would have saved you no time over Tube only, if all had been working well."What would you say are Heathrow's:
Strengths? - NONE whatsoever.Even LHR's greatest detractors normally recognise the vast array of international destinations served non-stop, the choice of airlines, and the consequent frequency of service. The question for each of us is whether we're prepared to put up with the cr@p that comes with it. Many people aren't, and that's fine for them. But if you don't even recognise the airport's balancing strengths, then either your travel is limited to a narrow selection of places that happen to be well served by some other airport and you therefore have no need at all for LHR's strengths, or you're simply expressing an unreasonable toys-thrown-out-of-pram type prejudice.

[BEagle]

Unfortunately, at the time I had to leave for Paddington, the state of the Piccadilly Line wasn't clear - so rather than risk it still being subject to delays, I opted for a return ticket using the Thiefrow Express.

Yes there are indeed a wide range of international destinations served by LHR. But the whole LHR travel experience is currently very poor. Simple things - why no bus shelters for the long term car park bus at T2, for example?

Perhaps when T5 opens, things will be better at LHR. But it will still be an expensive and difficult place to get to by road/rail from anywhere except London.

Whereas tomorrow I have a pleasant drive through the heart of England to Birmingham to look forward to! Beats the heck out of the M40/M25!!

[spud]

So, as long as you do an hours' research on t'internet and have got an Oyster card, you can get away with not being too excessively ripped off travelling into town.

Not a good defence really.

[Wiggly Bob]

Totally agree Spud,

I live in the Uk so doing some research is not a problem, I know how bad LHR is. However do we expect every visitor flying into LHR for the first time, to check the internet to avoid this rip-off and agro? I don't think so.

[BEagle]

Yes, the newt-loving Red Ken seems to think that it's London for the Londoners - and fleece anyone visiting!

Compare the cost of travelling from Munich airport to Munich. A one-way ticket for the 41 minute S-bahn (vastly better than either the Heathrow Express or the London Underground) costs.......£5.81.

There is NO EXCUSE for the absurd cost of the Thiefrow Express!

[Skipness One Echo]

Quite right and you'd ne an idiot to use it. SO do some homework before you go and use the Heathrow Connect!

[BEagle]

Well, thanks. I didn't know of the Heathrow Connect - it seems a much better option altogether. LHR to Ealing Broadway, Central line to Chancery Lane. Jobzagoodun!

No wonder there were so few people on the absurdly expensive Thiefrow Express!

[Globaliser]

Whereas tomorrow I have a pleasant drive through the heart of England to Birmingham to look forward to! Beats the heck out of the M40/M25!!I love those half a dozen non-stop flights to Hong Kong every day from BHX ...Well, thanks. I didn't know of the Heathrow Connect - it seems a much better option altogether. LHR to Ealing Broadway, Central line to Chancery Lane.It'll still take you longer than the Tube, on average.

But pay the extra money and use it, if you choose.

[Skipness One Echo]

In fairness to BEagle they don't really advertise the Heathrow Connect as it undermines the massive expense that is the ever so slightly faster Express. On the same lines and with new trains as well.
A much better bet I should say.

[Globaliser]

A much better bet I should say.To flesh out my earlier reply, sorted by overall journey time for BEagle:-

Heathrow Express
Heathrow 123 to Paddington, 15 minute journey, once every 15 minutes, ie 22.5 minute average time platform-to-platform
10 minute change to Bakerloo Line platform
18 minute Tube to Chancery Lane.

Overall average journey time: 50.5 minutes

Day return fare: £29.00
Tube return: £1.50 x 2
Total cost: £32.00

Tube
Heathrow 123 to Holborn, 51 minute journey, once every 5 minutes, ie 53.5 minute average journey time platform-to-platform
10 minute walk to Chancery Lane

Overall average journey time: 61 minutes

Tube return: £3.50 x 2
Total cost: £7.00

Heathrow Connect + Tube
Heathrow 123 to Paddington: 28 minute journey, once every 30 minutes (Mon-Sat), ie 43 minute average time platform-to-platform
10 minute change to Bakerloo Line platform
18 minute Tube to Chancery Lane.

Overall average journey time: 71 minutes

Day return fare: £11.90
Tube return: £1.50 x 2
Total cost: £14.90

[PAXboy]

Baggage Wrapping? I have seen at LGW the facility to have your suitace wrapped in heavy duty cling film. I think that I have seen this at T1 but I am trying ot locate it for T3.

Having carefully examined the maps on the BAA but they do not list it. I have been told that the service is sometimes available at the left luggage places but I cannot find them listed for T3 either. I do not want to have to go to T1 first, before checking in at T3, so any help would be appreciated.

Reason for needing the service? I am travelling to South Africa and JNB now has the 'crown' for bag pilfering. :(

[cavortingcheetah]

:O
Paxboy. old beano,
One shall be at T 3 tomorrow en route to the sand pit and thence to tropical islands in the balmy Indian. The plastic baggage wrapping facility is meant to be at the left luggage desk which usually (Ts 1&4) is on the arrival floor. This means that one disembarks at Arrivals, wraps bags (£5.0 each) and thence to departures, by lift one hopes.
The baggage wrap facility is not listed on the BAA maps but Memsahib telephoned T3 Left Luggage yesterday to be told that all was in order for the impended wrapping of the eight Cheetah bags that will require such tender care.
It is a very useful thing to do especially routing through FAJS and then onwards within SA as, one is led to believe from another thread, will be the case in your case! (HO!HO!)
Safe journey. If it does not work out tomorrow, will try to remember to post that fact and any subsequent relevant details later this week.
Toodle Pip.
cc.:)

[egnxema]

Heathrow 3 - The Left Luggage is in the Arrivals building opposite the Car Hire desks. :ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

:cool:

Many thanks. Car hire signs are easy enough to follow.

cc

[PAXboy]

I say, CC old boy, that really is absolutely ripping of you. And I'm glad that you also plan to ensure that you case is not ripped. Hah, Hah! :p


By Jingo, it's lucky that we still have some decent coves left in the country, otherwise, we would all be as bad as the Daily Mail.

Pip-Pip.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Methinks you have a slightly incorrect idea here as to what makes a cheetah tick. The Daily Mail is an excrescence of a tabloid, beloved in general, one hastens to say here, of overweight, overmoneyed and undereducated Poms. The sort who subject their double layered bisexual breast forms to the ravages of the Spanish sun whilst demanding service from attendant staff in a vernacular which they call English.
As a colonial, one finds that The Spectator and Africa Geographic will suffice for most edificatory needs. Mind you, from time to time, Magnum magazine has proved interesting, especially when planning another foray into the bush to pot yet another trophy head for the dining room wall.
Bung Ho!:eek:

[cavortingcheetah]

:eek:

Hot off the press and from the hub itself for Paxboy.

Terminal 3. LHR. There is, as discussed, a baggage wrap facility at left luggage at the far end of Arrivals.
There is also one in the Departure section, just down from the Gulf Air information counter on the left hand side, somewhere around Zone D.
As you may be aware, Arrivals and Departures at T3 are all on the same level, so it's not very difficult to walk from one end of the building around to the other.
Safe journey.
Totsiens.
cc.

[PAXboy]

Ahhh, thanks for that CC and jolly good show.:cool: One will use the Departures side as we are starting the journey there - it was someone else who is transitting.

One had thought that one had made it clear that one thinks that the daily mail [sound of spitton being used] is worse than the Sun. Mainly because the Sun makes no secret as to what it is and the DM pretends that it is nice.

Baie dankie vir u informasie en veilige reis.

[coopervane]

As Terminal 5 nears completion and BA get the removers in, then the big shuffle will commence. Does anyone know which airlines will relocate and how much T3/T4 space will become available??

Apart from the runway slot issue, will there be sufficient gate facilities to enable a LHR free for all bonanza?

T5 is a massive expansion I agree, but is it really big enough to cope with all the potential traffic?

With talk of T6 on the horizonal, maybe T5 should have been made twice the size!

All in all it looks like the building site will continue for years to come and with all the potentially extra passengers, I guess we can all look forward to many more years of M25 grid lock.

Again our government has failed to plan for the future where instead it could have looked years ago at he bigger picture. We need a brand new airport starting with a blank page with all the space in the world to expand. LHR under the BAA will only ever be a tangled mess constrained by an insufficient road network.

Its all very well having an open sky but its no good with supplying it with closed roads!

Coop & gridlock Bear:ugh:

[LHRKLBD]

From what i understand from the many bba staff and airport paper the plan is as follows:

T1 - Star Alliance Carriers + Airlines handled by them i.e. BD handling CY
T2 - Torn Down
T3 - BA (Spanish and OZ routes) One World. Plus a sub terminal for VS
T4 - Skyteam plus anyone that doesn't fall into the above.
T5 - BA
*Future plans:
If given premission T1 and Queens will also be torn down and Heathrow East built. Heathrow East will be come the new home of BMI and Star Alliance.

[egnxema]

QUOTE "From what i understand from the many bba staff and airport paper the plan is as follows:
T1 - Star Alliance Carriers + Airlines handled by them i.e. BD handling CY
T2 - Torn Down
T3 - BA (Spanish and OZ routes) One World. Plus a sub terminal for VS
T4 - Skyteam plus anyone that doesn't fall into the above.
T5 - BA
*Future plans:
If given premission T1 and Queens will also be torn down and Heathrow East built. Heathrow East will be come the new home of BMI and Star Alliance." END QUOTE
A few adjustments. VS are likely to occupy the whole of Zone B as well as zone A, and are currently the proposed first users of a drop off vehicle ramp being built to the south of the South Wing building - but they are not having a "Sub-temrinal" built. But will become T3's major airline.
T2 will close as T5 opens. And as soon a planning permission is granted (BAA are very sure they will get it) the Queens building and T2 will be demolished and the first phase of Heathrow East built - Star Alliance will move in in due course, then T1 will be demolished and the second half of Heathrow East will be built. The completed Heatrow East will have a footprint as big as T5 and will mirror the T5 experience. Piers in T3 and East will mostly run north/south as they do at T5. Pier 6 at T3 has already been rebuilt and designed for A380 ops and pier 7 will be demolished, and rebuilt in a new allignment.
H East is scheduled for completion by 2012. When complete it is rumours that VS will move into the new facilities in East.

[LHRKLBD]

I think you will find that a sub terminal is being built behind Zone A at T3. VS already have there curb side check-in by ZONE A.

[Gonzo]

Where's the surface access to the proposed Heathrow East? If it's from the east then it'll be a :mad: to get to!

[deltahotel9]

Having spent a forgetable few hours stuck in lhr tonight due to 'security problems' can anyine shed any light on this? I overheard someone saying BAA would not allow any BA crew through security but not why?

[Navy_Adversary]

Regarding an earlier post, you do not need me to tell you that the Heathrow Express epitomises Rip Off Britain, works out about £1 per minute standard class.
Working on the same lines my Eva air return flight to BKK in cattle should cost about £1600 inc taxes.:8 also Piccadily line return journey 2x 60 = £120 rtn KX-LHR.

If I am in a desperate rush to get from LHR to Kings Cross/St Pancras the express can save me 20 minutes on the Piccadily line time.
One thing about the tube, it is an accident waiting to happen, pax going down the steep crowded escalators with large suitcases and rucksacks etc.
Yes, I have done it when Arsenal are playing as well.:eek:

Finally, ITV have just interviewd a gent at LHR T5 and he says the terminal will open 27th March next year for ops and September this year for training.
I got the impression that BA were moving lock stock and barrel to T5 but it seems like the Spain and Oz are still T3:suspect:
Will BR (Eva) be using T4 from next September?

[ORAC]

Finally, ITV have just interviewd a gent at LHR T5 and he says the terminal will open 27th March next year for ops and September this year for training. BBC: One year deadline for Terminal 5

The new £4.3bn terminal at Heathrow Airport will be ready in exactly one year, the scheme's planners have said.

Terminal 5 will undergo six months of tests involving 16,000 volunteers before it opens on 27 March 2008. The tests will check facilities from car parking to flight journeys at the airport, the UK's biggest......

The passengers arriving from the Far East will be the first of about 40,000 to go through the terminal on its first day of operation......

[egnxema]

LHRKLBD

DO you work in T3?

There is construction work behind the SOuth Wing, and it does depend on your definition of "sub-terminal" but Zones A and B will in no way be separated from the rest of the check-in area, but a new ramp/stairs is being built from Zone A/B up to the departures concourse. Virgin's pax will still use the main departure lounge and no airline "owns" or can brand any of the gates. Therefore VS will not be able to have their aircraft specially allocated to gates near the Clubhouse for example.

[Charlie Roy]

When are more new slots likely to become available at Heathrow? How many new slots can we expect to become available in the short to medium term?

[LHRKLBD]

"Virgin's pax will still use the main departure lounge and no airline "owns" or can brand any of the gates."

EGNXEMA

I think you will find in T1 the BA own the GT5 lougne whichh in branded in BA colours. Also BMI own the GT8 area which also the in BMI branding !

[brakedwell]

From Times Online
March 30, 2007
BA strikes secret Heathrow slots deal with BMI
British Airways, under transatlantic pressure from 'open skies', is understood to have paid £30 million for 51 slots a week
Dominic O’Connell, Deputy Business Editor, The Sunday Times
British Airways has struck a secret deal to buy a parcel of lucrative runway slots at Heathrow from BMI British Midland, one of its biggest airline rivals.
The transaction, the biggest of its kind in recent years, will add to the speculation over the future of BMI, which is regarded as a prime takeover target thanks to its ownership of 12% of Heathrow’s scarce runway capacity.
Although neither company would comment on the deal today, it is understood BA paid around £30 million for 51 slots a week.
BA is eager to buttress its position at Heathrow ahead of the advent of “open skies” between Europe and the US in April next year. This will move restrictions on flights from Heathrow to the US, and open up BA to open competition on transatlantic routes for the first time.
Related Links
Comment: Clear skies
Analysts at ABN Amro today published research suggesting that flights across the Atlantic account for 65% of BA’s profits, and that open skies could see profits from those routes fall by between 25 to 53%.
Slots on Heathrow’s runways are the most sought after in world aviation. The airport’s two runways operate at 98.5% capacity. The only free slots left at the airport are late at night, too late to be attractive to most airlines. Heathrow's owner BAA, was today referred by the Office of Fair Trading to the Competition Commission for an inquiry that could eventually lead to its break-up. BAA faces a separate Competition Commission review into proposed charges to airlines at its UK airports.
Slot-trading is regarded by some as illegal, but despite this there is a thriving grey market. Few deals are disclosed publicly, although BA has in the past given some details of its transactions. Its previous biggest deal was in 2003, when it bought eight pairs of slots from Swissair, the Swiss flag carrier that later collapsed in financial turmoil.
Airline executives said that the price paid by BA appeared cheap. “Paying £3.4m per pair (the normal method for valuing slots) seems a very good deal. Pairs have changed hands for £10m,” one said.
BMI recently bought a British Mediterranean Airways, a BA franchise airline, for £30m. British Mediterranean flies to central Asia and Syria and Lebanon in BA colours and using BA flight codes. BA could have stopped the sale under the terms of the franchise agreement, but did not.
But a BA source today denied there was any connection between the two transactions. “The slot deal has nothing to do with British Mediterranean,” the source said.

[hapzim]

Good way of shedding the Bmed Franchise link, but getting the slots back for your other routes.

Get someone to buy the airline and then sell you the slots back for the same price. BMI get Bmed for nothing.
BA get the slots they want.

:suspect:

[Sigmond]

Anybody know which slots have been bought and what type of flights they could be used for?

I thought slots were always sold in 'pairs', so what would 51 buy you?

Thanks in advance

[Railgun]

To my understanding its 51 take off and landing slots :confused:

[Orp Tolip]

Good way of shedding the Bmed Franchise link, but getting the slots back for your other routes.
Get someone to buy the airline and then sell you the slots back for the same price. BMI get Bmed for nothing.
BA get the slots they want
hapzim
Are you sure of this? I was under the impression the bmed slots were already BA's. If not then as you say, looks very much like a deal was done that both parties were happy with. Must admit was surprised when the Bmed deal happened as I thought bmi had very little in the way of spare cash floating around in the first place....
On the other hand, if you believe Mr T... see page 2 :confused:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262706

[D4VE]

Rumour has it that Gb's future plans incorporate some similar deal with their LHR slots to protect the franchise.

There is a popular misconception that BA owns the slots and routes that the franchises fly - not so, thus GB's value on LHR alone at these rates is quite substantial. I am told that resistance is futile, i will be assimilated!!

[Whitehatter]

Much of it depends on the timing. As ever the devil is in the detail.

BMI might have offloaded some of their less attractive slots whilst retaining any of the better ones BMed brought with them. At face value the report doesn't actually give much detail.

[flyer55]

With BA buying these slots what they got planned we know they are planning to move Houston to LHR before march 30 followed by Dallas and Atlanta, thats 3 lh routes that are daily what will they get in return !

[13Alpha]

they are planning to move Houston to LHR before march 30

Really ? Good grief. :uhoh:

There go the on time arrivals and departures and the cheerful cabin crew. :(

13Alpha

[egnxema]

LHRKLBA

Thanks for the info on T1, my understanding only refers to T3.

[justtakethecup]

Ahh yes, what would this website be without a dig at BA cabin crew, eh 13 Alpha.

[13Alpha]

not a dig, just an observation after lots of BA flying from all of the London airports that - in general - the crews flying from Gatwick seem happier than the ones at Heathrow.

If the cabin crew's experience of working from the airports is similar to that of the passengers flying from them, perhaps this shouldn't be a surprise.

13Alpha

[Geffen]

Fast tracking of the third runway? interesting to see what HACAN et al would make of this.
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/heathrow-airport-news-020407c.htm

[1DC]

I hope this is the correct thread to post this but having whinged in the past about the delays experienced at LHR and other British airports can i express my thanks for a speedy passage through T3 last night.
Arrived just after 1900 and after a fast track through Immigration was pleasantly surprised to find my 3 large bags already on the carousel when i arrived at baggage collection.. I doubt if i could have got from the aircraft to baggage collection any quicker so to be beaten by the bags is impressive, thanks...

[point5]

It does! 2am Sat morning. God help us :{

[flower]

Good Luck Guys, hope it goes well :ok:

[Flightman]

Good luck to all you guys. :ok:

I'm hoping for a smooth switch over and not many late runners!

[Slavedriver]

hehe, so it's official, people travelling through Terminal 4 really are just cargo :}

[mocoman]

EFPS handover at the same time as well?

[747-436]

Hope the move goes well and the queues at Security to get through will be short!! :)

[WHBM]

BBC news this morning said :

"There will be no delays caused by the transition to the new tower as the number of landing aircraft will be reduced over this period".

:rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Good luck chasps and chaspesses. Wouldn't get me up there for all the tea in China!

[GT3]

I would have to agree, it is a NEWS thread. It should not have ended up in a "spotters type" thread about LHR. Shame really.

[DONTTELLTHEPAX]

How did it all go ??? any problems.

[point5]

Yes... an extra 25min walk to and from work! :sad:

[Roffa]

Did you miss the bus?

[fly bhoy]

Yes... an extra 25min walk to and from work!

Even worse...an extra 25 min walk to and from work with point 5!!!:} :{

FB:ok:

[BOAC]

clearfinalsno1
I despair at the arrogance of MODERATORS and their unnecessary meddling with threads.


The correct 'vehicle' for complaints is via the 'contact us' link at page bottom, not a public tantrum. This will take you direct to the inner sanctum where the g***y b***s live:)

I have been 'nursing' the thread in Spotters since it was dumped in there on Pop and me and have been keeping out the juveniles as much as possible.:ok: I appreciate that is not the best place, but we now have 3 running, Spotters, ATC and here.:ugh:

[gordonroxburgh]

Shame the topic got merged. Nice newsy discussion and obviously of historical significance. Think someone made a mistake.

Heard the tower move went well

[WHBM]

I see on the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6710409.stm that Heathrow East has been given planning permission, and that partial completion by 2012 is expected.

Anyone have any idea of start date for the works. Presumably T5 has to open first, then the shuffle around, then demolish T2, before construction works can start. It's a bit of a quick project.

[MUFC_fan]

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.latribune.fr%2Finfo%2FL-alliance-d-Air-France-envisage-de-creer-un--hub--a-Londres-Heathrow-%7E-IDB1A2888DA14E342BC12572F1002804C0&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Looks like passenger numbers could start to rise at the airport if the Skyteam can form this merger.

Replacing the A320 and B737 series will be 744s and 777s!:D

Will this have any effect on BA?

[Julian Hensey]

Heathrow chief says sorry for congestion
Financial Times, Thursday June 21st, 2007


Heathrow's chief executive has admitted that the conditions experienced by passengers in London's main airport are unacceptable, and that they are unlikely to improve significantly before the opening of Terminal Five in March next year. Responding to a torrent of criticism from business -leaders about 'Heathrow -hassle', Tony Douglas said he walked through the terminals almost every day and regularly saw things that made him cringe.

There were no excuses to be offered for the airport's condition, he said, but it was a consequence of under-capacity at the world's busiest international airport, which was handling 50 per cent more passengers than it was designed for.

'The proposition for the traveller isn't always what we would want it to be at Heathrow and it's simply not good enough. But the truth is that Heathrow is handling the equivalent of a Manchester or a Stansted over and above what it was designed to do.'

In his first newspaper interview since the furore over Heathrow blew up last week following an FT column by Philip Stephens, Mr Douglas said he would not duck legitimate criticism. The airport was 'bursting at the seams and quite frankly in some places is held to-gether by sticking plaster'.
BAA, the private group that owns the airport, had hoped to get by until the opening of the new terminal next year, which will add as much capacity as the whole of Gatwick. But it had been blown off-course by the security clampdown on August 10, following revelations of an alleged plot to use liquids carried in hand-baggage for a terrorist attack.

Business leaders have said the resulting restrictions, queues for security clearance and delays were damaging London's status as the world's leading international financial centre. Last night London's lord mayor warned the chancellor, Gordon Brown, in a Mansion House speech that executives would do business in the UK only if they found it easy to use the airports, and that at the moment they did not.

Mr Douglas said progress had been made in dealing with the hold-ups, by recruiting more than 500 extra security staff at Heathrow - a process that took 15 weeks because of screening requirements. Extra were being recruited to give the airport more 'resilience' in case tighter restrictions were imposed to protect what was a prime terrorist target.

Queuing times had fallen earlier this year, he said, with 97 per cent passing through security in less than 10 minutes. But with 200,000 passengers a day, that still left 'an awful lot of disappointed customers'.
He acknowledged the frustration of many passengers at the Transport Department rules limiting hand-baggage to one item and banning all but small quantities of liquid. A trial starting next month in Terminal One's transit lounge for passengers changing flights would test whether the limit could be raised to two items while maintaining tougher standards of scrutiny at check-in.

He also said there was evidence that international travellers were rerouting themselves through Paris, Frankfurt or Amsterdam where the rules were laxer.

Japanese airlines had deliberately changed some of their routing guidelines, he said, because of the difficulties in London encountered by transit passengers.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Perhaps he ought to visit LAX, then he'd realise that Heathrow isn't quite that bad!

[SLT]

It's a shame that LHR is slipping - but this isn't a new thing, nor is it confined to Heathrow. But seeing we're talking about it!! It isn't just down to security queues and handbaggage restrictions - it's the whole LHR experience that's appalling. Those of us who work there see it every time and I guess we probably see it more than the average passenger who might only use the airport once in a while. But that doesn't mean that it's OK to ignore things. All the terminals are overheated - there is little or no air conditioning. They stink, the floors are dirty and there is nowhere near enough space. The ceilings are too low - I'm 6'5" tall and I have to duck constantly. While they're kinda stuck with that at least for now, they could increase the dingy lighting levels to at least create an impression of space. The baggage trolleys are in a right state - they've all got supermarket syndrome and most rattle alarmingly. The toilets stink worse than motorway service stations or dodgy pubs and again are overheated. Travelators and escalators don't work regularly, and you wait days to get tehm fixed. There's never anywhere to sit down, but if you want to shop - you're sorted. T5 will have 142 shops, but only 700 seats. Need I say more?? Endless driving to grab money off the passengers while providing disgusting facilities will make those who can, choose to go elsewhere. I wouldn't go near LHR if I could avoid it. :mad:

[Bus429]

My posts passim in "Airports" tell of my experiences. Radio 4's PM blog about LHR also contains similar experiences.

[Final 3 Greens]

Perhaps he ought to visit LAX, then he'd realise that Heathrow isn't quite that bad!

You are joking, I hope.

F3G, a regular Heathrow user.

[cwatters]

...it was a consequence of under-capacity at the world's busiest international airport, which was handling 50 per cent more passengers than it was designed for.

Is it down to him how many flights Heathrow takes?

[120.4]

"Is it down to him how many flights Heathrow takes?

Well, not quite, but BAA are required under their charter to provide capacity to meet reasonable demand. We have known for years that Heathrow would run out of capacity before now and new provision has not been ready - partially because of the fiasco with the T5 planning enquiry.

T5 does not get us out of the woods either. LHR is already operating the equivelent of Stansted over its design capacity, T5 brings in another Gatwick's worth of capacity; However, as I understand it, when T5 comes in part of Ts 1 & 2 close immediately for the East development, meaning that capacity and demand will only just match and that only works when things run smoothly.

.4

[Julian Hensey]

BAA bloodied by horrible Heathrow
It needs more competition and a regulatory overhaul

Financial Times, Friday June 22nd, 2007


An outfit knows it is in dire trouble when even the person in charge publicly joins the chorus of criticism. That is the plight of Heathrow, London's main airport and the UK's (un)welcome mat for millions of visitors each year. Tony Douglas, Heathrow's chief executive, admitted this week that passenger conditions are unacceptable.

The causes of the nightmare experience at Heathrow are many and varied. Among the more obvious are poor management by BAA, which owns Gatwick and Stansted as well as Heathrow; a lack of competition; and a regulatory regime that skews investment decisions and puts too little weight on passenger satisfaction. Then there is a planning system that makes it so difficult and time-consuming to expand that Heathrow is bursting at the seams. On top of this come security restrictions, which the airport has no option but to enforce.

Better management by BAA is the place to start. It has been too slow to bring in extra security staff to get queues moving more quickly, and not good enough at retaining those who have come through the necessarily lengthy recruitment process. It has not cared sufficiently whether the terminals are clean and well maintained. If there is a repeat this summer of the disruption after last August's security clampdown, it will cut no ice for BAA to talk about how wonderful life will be when Terminal Five opens.
In the longer term, more competition would help.

The Competition Commission is considering a proposal to break up BAA's ownership of the three airports that dominate London. Research suggests that for some types of journey, such as short-haul and leisure, passengers already switch among the three. So competing owners would have incentives to improve conditions to attract airlines and passengers.

But other aspects of Heathrow's role, notably for long-haul flights and as a European hub, are less susceptible to competition. There is therefore a risk that more competition could encourage Heathrow to focus its efforts where it was most likely to lose business, at the expense of passengers who could less readily go elsewhere.

So beyond the competition issue, a far-reaching overhaul of the regulatory regime is needed. This could look at whether different companies could operate and manage the airport terminals. It might also examine whether slots should be made more expensive to ease capacity by pricing out airlines for whom it was no longer worthwhile. Heathrow's problems are deep-rooted. But the dismal state of the airport demands that they cannot be ducked.

[BurglarsDog]

Flying in to Heathrow next week. And of course the first travellator we encounter at Heathrow probably wont work (again)! No worries. Dont really care as its part and parcel of visiting Blighty. But family leaving for Oz without me Sat night end of July. Can someone advise current waiting times for security after checking in baggage? Just wondering whether to tell Mrs Dog to take the tent and a couple of bones with her?
Ta
DogGone:ok:

[halo]

The simple fact is that Heathrow is a dump.

The maintenance is terrible.

The terminals are overcrowded.

There are hardly any bins anywhere at all... Surely if you have been through security then the risk of putting something deadly in a bin has been dramatically reduced... Of course emptying bins costs money which is why it isn't done at Heathrow.

The toilets are completely and utterly disgraceful. Just because there is a little electronic monitor on the wall saying that they are cleaned every 30 minutes does not mean that it is getting done.

There are hardly any seats anywhere. Nobody gives a toss about the shops. They do care about not standing around for hours on end.

The airport is so far over its capacity with regards to passenger numbers and number of flights coming in and out that nobody appears to have any control over it anymore.

It's all well and good for the Chief Executive to accept criticism, but it purely comes down to the fact that he needs to do something about it. If you are taking on too many flights, and allowing ACL to fill up the airport with aircraft that you can't competently handle, then you surely must be thinking "We need to get our arses in gear".

Problem is... the BAA only care about money, profit, and shareholders. The last people they think about are the long suffering passengers who pay well over the odds for a sandwich and have to suffer the frankly awful conditions and environment that Heathrow airport presents.

[Benny Lin]

I personally cannot see how T5 is going to make things better, which seems to be the standard mantra. Most of the operational issues seem to centre around staffing, either 1. not enough people (security, maintenance, cleaning, baggage, dispatchers, etc) and 2. working practices (baggage again, bus drivers, etc). Whilst I recognise some limited improvements in the latter with respect to BA, they are only very limited and none of the other issues are addressed by the new terminal. Indeed, won't staff be spread more thinly (presumably there will be another Flight Connection Centre for T5 to T5 transfers for example), so it could get worse? Added to the inevitable teething problems with a new build, I would think that Heathrow will be a place to avoid for a few weeks next Spring.

[groundbum]

my background, my wife and I own an 11 bedroom B&B in the Yorkshire Dales and I'm an always wannabe pilot and love jetfumes.

I have a lot of sympathy for LHR and BAA, as we find ourselves in the same situation here. We are incredibly popular and are nearly 100% full. What this means is loadsa money which is great, but there is just NO reasonable way of getting any DIY done, as checkout is 11am and checkin is 4pm. So as well as doing the day job of phones, cleaning beds etc, unless it's replacing a lightbulb or tightening a tap there's no way of getting into the bedroom room to do anything major.

So we built an 8 bedroom extension this winter, thinking that would take some pressure off the existing rooms. Nope, we're now down to 95% occupancy, still not enough to get in and do anything major!

So we're like a mini LHR adding our own capacity but being overrun again. Yes we could turn people away and cancel bookings etc, but that means upsetting a lot of people.

Funnily enough, the second set of people in our new extension in May were.... 6 quantity surveyers from T5 on a boys weekend away!

The only way to totally clean nasty old terminals is close them for a week and really go at it hammer and tongs for a top to bottom clean. But at 110% capacity all year how can BAA do that?!?! Other countries have the benefit of unlimited land so they can just add another mega building and close the old one in a rotating fashion, but England being a small island nation..

G

[MarkD]

They could always reduce demand from LHR by asking BA to run more flights direct from where people are coming from to where they are going out of places like MAN, BHX, GLA...

[turnipgreen]

switch some flights to LCY! Actually thinking about it, don't. I like LCY as it is with not many queues, smiling staff and a relaxed atmosphere. In fact, you couldnt get further from the experience of Heathrow (Which i had to experience last week!)

[Buster the Bear]

The Spaniards paid a Kings ransom for the BAA, so efficiencies have to made somewhere! Staffing probably is the largest single fixed cost, therefore whilst the demand is there, terminals can look dirty. Do long queues stop folk from wanting to fly?

After the last departure, there is plenty of time to clean and freshen up a terminal overnight. The airport itself is effectively closed during the 'small hours'. The security delays are not of the BAA's making, and will take time to recruit and train sufficient quality staff (assuming they are recruiting)?

[Skipness One Echo]

Had to pass through Terrible 3 Flight Connections last week and got searched AGAIN!!! What on Earth is the idea behind getting searched when airside? I was cleared by security at Toronto.
Also if the Canadians have the resources to safely check my TWO items of cabin baggage, why in the UK are connecting passengers FORCED to check one in on transit. Is airport security in Canada not trusted?

Also the whole random shoe X-Ray is becoming embarrassing. Either x-ray themn all or for all our sakes stop. It is needlessly humiliating.

[spanishflea]

Security screening connecting pax is the rule rather than the exception.

Most transit points do what LHR do, they just manage it a little better...

[egnxema]

After PanAm 102 i became policy at LHR that all pax and bags leaving LHR, either in transit or originating, would be screened by Heathrow security.

The 1 bag policy is current DfT directive which is hopefully under review.

The T3 transfers facility is a disgrace, but is soon to be replaced by a new facility directly behind the current one with 7 x ray machines.

Complaining to security officers or supervisors, or on pprune, will not get things changed - they agree with you 100% and make their feelings known to management regularly.

All frontline staff in T3 would urge you to complain strongly to BAA via the website www.heathrowairport.com/feedback and make it clear that you intend to connect in AMS FRA or CDG in future, and that you will adjust your company's travale policy to reflect the same. BAA don't fear much, and sit in an enviable position of a queue of airlines waiting to use the cramped facilities. The main thing BAA fear is being overtaken by a rival airport on on the continent.

Complain, complain, complain.

Also, Canadian security, just like UK security, is only as good as the guard sitting at that moment, looking at that particular bag. Screen reading is incredibly boring, but possibly one of the most important parts of aviation security. Hats off to all that do it.

[Skipness One Echo]

The last time I used Flight Connections in 2001 my bags were through checked from Glasgow to Singapore and I was not rescreened at Heathrow. The experience was quite pleasant.
I ask again, what is the point of this security?
If it is a DFT rule can someone supply the details or a link to the site please.

[newscaster]

Air China have started using A340 with new First and Business class cabins on PEK-LHR route daily since June 21, no more 747.

[WHBM]

The 1 bag policy is current DfT directive which is hopefully under review.It may have been determined by the DfT but they were entirely encouraged by BAA to do this, all the while pretending it would be good for security. In fact BAA (or the security-minded team who attended the DfT meetings) wanted it because they knew it would reduce security screening costs per pax, which were rising as pax took more and more hand luggage to overcome chronic difficulties with checked baggage, and airlines were starting to allow greater hand baggage amounts.

I had the good fortune to go on Tuesday of this week through T1 domestic security at it's quietest time, 9.30pm. You would think it would be deserted, wouldn't you ? Well it took 20 minutes of queueing and the queue was way back past the BA domestic check-in and starting down the terminal. Reason was entirely down to five out of the six checkpoints being closed, just the "staff" one on the far left being open. No delayed domestic departures on the board at all.

The real trouble with BAA management is they have lost any interest in aviation or passengers. Their entire targets and budgets are focused around how much margin they can screw out of the operation each month to remit to Madrid to service the debt borrowed to buy the place. Everyone who should be running the operation is stuck in their office looking at spreadsheets and playing with budgets and cost reporting. Even the retail units steadily change over, dropping the few that were of any use in favour of the highest rent-offerers, regardless of the mix of units. What goes on outside in the terminals has ceased to involve them.

[spanishflea]

The last time I used Flight Connections in 2001 my bags were through checked from Glasgow to Singapore and I was not rescreened at Heathrow. The experience was quite pleasant.

Correct, if you are arriving from the UK you don't have to be searched again.

If you arrive from any other country then you do.


Just be thankful its not as bad as the USA where not only do you have to reclear security, but you have to recheck your bags too. Now that is a pain...

[Skipness One Echo]

Let me make myself a wee bit clearer. I also came back the same way and walked all the way from Flight Connections to the Shuttle Lounge with no need to be searched!!! ie SYD-BKK-LHR-GLA and cleared all security for the ENTIRE journey at Sydney.
I repeat, can someone explain why we need to rescreen arriving pax in the UK and then point me to the appropriate DfT guidance.

[WHBM]

Just announced today is a new American Airlines service from Stansted to JFK, building to twice daily by next year. I think this sends one of the clearest shots across Heathrow's bows of all the recent bad press they have been gettuing from all sides, if American is going to split their service.

[spanishflea]

Let me make myself a wee bit clearer. I also came back the same way and walked all the way from Flight Connections to the Shuttle Lounge with no need to be searched!!! ie SYD-BKK-LHR-GLA and cleared all security for the ENTIRE journey at Sydney.

That is not possible.

You land at T4, get off the plane, follow the FCC signs, get on the bus, and get dropped at the ground floor of the FCC. From there you go up the stairs, round the corner, and to the security searchpoint.

You can't access the FCC without going through security. Once you are through, you pass all the airline desks, clear immigration, and enter the Shuttle Lounge (after a long walk looking down over T1 International).

I would be intrigued if you did this any other way than I described above as something would have to have gone very seriously wrong for you to not be security cleared.

[Skipness One Echo]

Hey Spanish, as I said "The last time I used Flight Connections in 2001", so it was a wee while ago. Sorry if I sound as if I am moaning but the logic of this defeats me. If we are happy to fly a load of passengers over Westminster into LHR then why on Earth is it not safe to connect them on to Glasgow without yet more uniformed intrusion into my possesions.
I'm genuinely looking for the official reasoning on this. If Mohammed from Riyadh is allowed ( rightly ) to have cleared ( Saudi )security and permitted access to our airspace in the first place, what the Hell do we need to check again for?

[Gonzo]

Might this have anything to do with the fact that on one pier in terminal three arriving and departing passengers are still able to mix?

[Skipness One Echo]

Yes I did notice that one is able to meet arriving pax after being seperated by a glass screen all the way to the end of the pier at Stands 313 / 318 ! Quite surprised about that! That is an obvious loophole. Can anyone confirm this is the official reason?

[egnxema]

It is not the reason. As previously stated the reason is that all pax taking off from the UK have to be cleared by UK security. At the current time the minimum standard that ALL the world's pax handling airports must adhere to are set out by ICAO. In Europe the standards are further refined and improved by ECAC, and in the UK the standard - tighter again - is set by the UK Government. Therefore at world hub airports like LHR it is quite likely that a significant percentage of transiting pax could have boarded their flight in a country complying to the ICAO standard, which is not currently as high as the UK Standard. Therefore the rule - all pax taking off from a UK airport must have been processed by UK security. All transit bags will go through the HBS system at LHR.
Stand 323 is on Pier 6, 322 is on the end of Pier 7. There is a huge amount of visible security, and an equally huge amount of invisible securty on Pier 7, which is in place until Pier 7 is demolished and replaced in the near future.
For DfT rules, try the DfT website.
Security in T3 cannot wait for the DfT to relax rules on the number of bags permitted through security. Security queues only became a regular feature after the Liquid threat last August. Believe me, BAA want nothing more than for pax to be speeded into the Departure lounges as quickly as possible. No money is made out of pax in queues. Infact, you would be surprised at the amount of money T3 refunds airlines because of queue lengths at security. Ferrovial have set a target of 5 min queue time.
If you find the current security process difficult, complain to your MP, complain to the DfT, but don't assume that any part of the security process is at the request of BAA. BAA are legally required to comply with the UK governments regulations and LHR is constantly monitored by the DfT to ensure this happens.

If aviation security in the UK is still not to your liking then take the Eurostar to Paris and make your future trips through CDG.

[Skipness One Echo]

You seem very keen to defend BAA but let's face it they're a bit rubbish at what they're supposed to do, ie get folk through airports. Way more interested in bloody shops. When I finally got through T3 security in the first place I found myself hopping like a loony putting my shoes on in the middle of the Duty Free Shop with nice smelling women very keen to take all my money!!
It's just WRONG WRONG WRONG. Toronto incidentally was RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT but then what the Hell do Canadians know? ( Answer : good manners, courtesy, respect and how to say "No" to the US of A when you need to !)
Incidentally since an ICAO standard airport cannot be trusted to screen security for a UK departure why on Earth would we allow them into our airspace in the first place? That in itself is logically an unacceptable risk.

Incidentally the numbert of times that they need to tell you on Pier 7 you are being watched does rather suggest there is a weakness there somewhere !
It's very creepy, like being threatened every ten feet by Big Brother, a corrosive feeling I think.

[Gonzo]

Obviously it varies, but I am not so confident about the security on pier 7.

I was approached by two members of BAA security a few weeks ago on the pier, asking to see my ID and sign. I responded by asking to see their passes and get them to sign a piece of paper that I had, in return, to prove that they were permitted to be there.

They then backed down and said they weren't going to check, and I could continue to the tower.:ugh:

[frostbite]

Tony Douglas has quit his job and will join construction firm Laing O'Rourke.

Will anyone notice?

Source C4 Teletext p.505

[Flightman]

Just another one of many. Lost count of how many senior staff have left in the last 9 months.

[Skipness One Echo]

Anyone comment on the suggestion in the Manchester thread that I as a British citizen will be required to be finger printed flying domestically from Terminal 5?
Have we fallen so far?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=260996&page=20

[WHBM]

but don't assume that any part of the security process is at the request of BAA.The "One Bag" approach is absolutely at the behest of BAA.

Stupidly when the UK Government started thinking about expanded security checks they asked BAA to assist, not having realised that BAA long ago gave up having airport matters as their main thrust, and only treat them as an incidental add on to running a retail park. BAA said they could not make enough screeners available to check more than one bag per passenger, even for transits.

It was bad enough that passengers would have any bottles of wine or normal-sized cosmetics confiscated from them, only to be offered them for sale again by the BAA monopoly immediately afterwards. BAA lobbied hard to have the limitation applied at security, not when boarding the aircraft (makes sense, huh ? :rolleyes: ). But BAA said they were unable to make any additional staff available for security checks, despite having hundreds of fully security-cleared retail staff on duty airside who, in a number of the concessions, appear to have little to occupy them during the day.

So one bag through security, buy your replacements in our conveniently located outlets just beyond. Yes please, minister, as the experts on airports we can say that is exactly the way to do it.

Anyone comment on the suggestion in the Manchester thread that I as a British citizen will be required to be finger printed flying domestically from Terminal 5?Yes, correct. This is to ensure that as domestic pax you are able to use your democratic right to shop in all the shopping areas of T5 and not be confined to a small domestic-only area like in T1 at present, which presumably impacts on spend per passenger. It wasn't in the original plan. Someone's bright idea though.

[Skipness One Echo]

Is it mandatory for everyone to be fingerprinted? It all sounds fascist to me. Fingerprinting people has very serious connotations.

I fail to see the link with shopping?

[Haven't a clue]

I read somewhere else that the reason was that because the departure retail mall has domestic and international pax mingling together there was a possibility that an incoming pax could enter the country by getting on a domestic flight without clearing immigration. I guess that would mean a devious pax who had earlier arrived on an international flight to connect to another international flight, but had cunningly also booked a domestic flight and printed his/her boarding pass at home might get on that domestic flight and thus join the great mass of IIs.

Manchester and Gatwick take photographs of domestic pax and only allow them to enter domestic gate areas if the photos match.

I guess the fingerprint approach is BA's or BAA's or both to do away with the staff carrying out this function by getting the paying pax to "self serve". I may be doing the bean counters an injustice though, as I suspect the real reason will be to allow flexibility at each gate to handle both domestic or international flights.

I have no problem with this approach if, as with the photos, the record is destroyed after 24 hours. But given the nature of the present security animal, there must be some interest from one agency or another to keep them for a century of two once they get wind of the process.

But it remains a complete mystery me why I get my picture taken at LGW South gates 1-10 as I arrive on a domestic flight, and am only let through to domestic baggae reclaim if the photo matches.... That's blamed on Customs, as I recall.

[WHBM]

Let's get away from all this security stuff for a moment.

A number of carriers, particularly from Eastern Europe, are developing a trend to serve London through Gatwick, but operating a token rotation through Heathrow, generally on Saturdays when there are one or two slots available.

Now perceived wisdom is you don't want to split operations, particularly low-volume operations, like this, so there must be a reason behind it. Pulkovo (now Rossiya) has done it for a while, now Air Ukraine and Azerbaijan Airlines are doing the same.

Is there some advantage should a couple of free slots come up in having an existing presence at the airport ? It can't be because of Heathrow's business traffic advantage as the slots used are on a Saturday.