HEATHROW

[Skipness One Echo]

At the very least, I'm not sure why for example a ski trip to Switzerland, or a day trip to Frankfurt by someone living in Berkshire needs to begin specifically at Heathrow.The people of the Thames Valley might even find this rather more convenient.

Because Heathrow is a massive operation with a massive choice which doesn't need to be replicated by concreting over Oxfordshire if we can avoid it. Exposing more of the South East to aircraft noise is not the answer. I actually think Runway Three will still come but not until they've overspent on High Speed Rail and reaped the electoral whirlwind on that score. By the time they've finished on Terminal 2, capacity will be so tight and trhe cupboard so bare, there won't be, and never was much choice.

It's got nothing to dow ith capacity at Manchester airport btw, that's an utter red herring.

[Seljuk22]

Air India now flies 10 times a week DEL-LHR with B777-300ER (was 7 weekly B777-200LR + 3 weekly B777-300ER).

[jackieofalltrades]

Quick question, is Northolt further from Heathrow than 18R / 36L is at Schiphol?

Northolt is roughly 5 1/2 miles from Heathrow, 36L at Schiphol is approx. 3 1/2 miles from the terminal.

[bjones4]

The end of T2

YouTube - Terminal 2 gets demolished (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5QJZTz6FOc)

[jbsharpe]

My girlfriend flew into LHR with EI this evening at about 9:26 and it seemed to her untrained eye that the plane landing afterwards executed a go around.

Anyone know what was the reason?

[Haven't a clue]

Just watched the video of T2 demolition. For those who have yet to see it a dinosaur like machine spends 3 minutes chewing its way through the Terminal 2 sign. At that rate it will still be standing for some time to come.

Ironically there's a huge poster along the side of the building which reads "Make way for a world class facility. Terminal 2 demolition, scheduled 2009".

Ops normal at LHR then - scheduled 2009, actual 2010.

Bring on the third runway!

[starbag]

Ops normal at LHR then - scheduled 2009, actual 2010.

Demolition work started in 2009. The part of the terminal housing the landside areas being demolished in the video is almost the last part of the terminal to go.

[Haven't a clue]

starbag many thanks for the clarification. Apologies to all for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

But the video is captioned:

HeathrowNews — May 18, 2010 — Demolition work starts on Heathrow's Terminal 2, the oldest of the airport's five passenger terminals.

And the source Heathrow News seems to be a BAA channel. Honest mistake then!

[Seljuk22]

Qantas will increase its A380 services on SYD-SIN-LHR from 5 weekly to daily flights (after receiving A380 No.7) and MEL-SIN-LHR from current 2 weekly to daily flights in March 2011 when A380 No.10 will be delivered.
About Qantas - Media Room - Media Releases (http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2010/may10/4074)

[Seljuk22]

bmi will increase LHR-TXL from 4 daily to 5 daily from 21st June.

new flight:
LH 6481 LHR-TXL 07:10 - 10:00
LH 6482 TXL-LHR 11:05 - 12:00

[globetrotter79]

Ref BMI LHR-TXL 5th daily...

What is being chopped by BMI in order to fit this extra flight in?

[Midland Ground]

New TXL will be the slot from the BD80 LHR/BHD which will have a new dep time of 0730 BD82 will be non-op

[Skipness One Echo]

Photos: - Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo//1735113/L/)

[British Grenadier]

Nope , still putting the Jetties on the building , if you look closely , you will see driveable A/C steps on the parked A/C , meaning passengers are STILL getting bussed .:rolleyes:

[LHR27C]

S1E - Expected to open early summer 2011

[Seljuk22]

Egyptair plans to increase LHR-CAI to double daily on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays.
Egyptair adds more flights to London | Aviation | AMEinfo.com (http://www.ameinfo.com/237303.html)

[Spitfire boy]

Lots of excitement nearby on the roads as if a new volcano discovered. Flights appear unaffected plus a police heli keeping guard so presumably some good pictures later.

[pcpmitch]

Word is that the fire is in Servisair Cargo Warehouse between T4 & T5

[Helix Von Smelix]

i am just north of LHR in Iver. Looks like smoke taps turned on again!!. Are you sure its on the south side?? Must be big:sad:

[ILS27LEFT]

If cargo area is confirmed the fire might be close to the fuel depo, hopefully not!

[scudpilot]

from the description ( and I am in Basingstoke, so cannot see ) sounds like Sandringham Road.... I am told a fork lift truck exploded...

There is a large fuel tank close to this, but not the fuel farm...

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Heathrow still departing off 27L so can't be that exciting...

[chr15toffer]

http://a.yfrog.com/img444/1469/vn2.jpg

[Lon More]

Presumeably the new Royal Mail Distribution Centre on the site of the old Ford works and before that Langley Airfield?

[Diedtrying]

Iberia cargo I believe. LFB made pumps 10. :eek:

[Betablockeruk]

What's that vertical trail to the left of the cloud? Major piece of fallout? :confused:

[west lakes]

BBC report

BBC News - Heathrow airport warehouse hit by fire (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10575057.stm)

[Manflex55]

This is definitely Southampton Road. Looks like the wind is blowing smoke towards the cargo/executive apron.

[Lon More]

What's that vertical trail to the left of the cloud? Major piece of fallout? I was also wondering that, Initially thought it was xomething going up, but it's not coming out of the fire so must be on the way down. If it is fork lift trucks there's a pretty good chance gas cylinders are involved.

[Selcalweb.co.uk]

"What's that vertical trail to the left of the cloud? Major piece of fallout?"

It's a water mark on the cctv cover! There's one on the right as well if you look.

[JetRob]

The one on the right has to be a water mark, there is no fallout from the cloud that can make that.

However the on the left looks like a fallout because of the way to cloud moves when it falls out. But looking at it, it moves falling back down the ground so, it could be anything. :8

[aeroDellboy]

The picture shows in the foreground the Royal Mail London Air Mail Unit on the South side of the airport, the site on the old Langley works is the Heathrow Worldwide Distribution Centre.

[Seljuk22]

EK is (was) the main customer of the warehouse
gulfnews : Emirates warehouse at Heathrow on fire (http://gulfnews.com/business/general/emirates-warehouse-at-heathrow-on-fire-1.652335)

[jdcg]

Czech Airlines allegedly pulling out of LHR (as well as MAN) from Nov 10th. Drastic need for capital I guess as they should be able to sell the slots for a tidy sum. Still, seems a bit of a shame for them - would they codeshare with BA, even though they're different alliances...?

[Seljuk22]

BA will start LHR-GOT double daily from 28th November.

[Seljuk22]

Air Berlin will join oneworld. Maybe we'll see them at LHR in the near future?
oneworld - Neuigkeiten (http://de.oneworld.com/ende/ow/news/details?objectID=22473)

[daz211]

I have only traveled through LHR T3 and T4 twice this year but let me start with the drive time from Essex to LHR last week it took me 3.5 hrs and the time before that took 3hrs, Now lets get onto the state of the Terminals, T3 layout of checkin area is confusing and in my mind it is a total mess of tenser barriers and dated desks however the departure shopping area seemed ok but the departure gates (I flew Air Canada) looked like they had not been updated for over 20yrs, when I flew back into T3 i was greeted to for want of a better work a building site wires, pipes, tape and boarded off areas all this before getting into UK border control, A massive mass of people no order three lines leading to one desk with five members of staff trying to fit very tired and grumpy travelers in to this very small area, once again a building site, Baggage reclaim I thought i had walked into third world countries Airport make shift baggage desks the oldest baggage trollies I have ever seen and unclaimed/lossed bags lined up in every area i could see, the Virgin desk looked a total mess some old red dirty seats outside a makeshift boarded office the baggage belts very old and dated ... now T4 was not much better the same building works very old and tired looking ....
So here is my gripe ! Why do Airlines still want there passengers to have to go through the hell of what is called the M25, I mean 3.5 hrs to travel less than 90 miles
then once you arrive at LHR (if you havent missed your flight) having to face the mish mash of checkin desks and taped off lanes, At least you can have an OK wait in the departure lounge but then only to walk to a very dated and dirty gate area.
I know that people will answer with Airlines want to use LHR because of the connections and Airlines that also use LHR but I wonder how many people do connect through LHR and how many dont, Take the USA for instance you can get direct flights from the US to many European Airport so why LHR?
Airlines should offer flights to STN or LTN as well as LHR, Lets say an Airline has 4-5 flights a day to the US why not have two to LHR and two to STN or LTN and one to MAN or NCL or BHX ? We got talking to a family and a group who were on our flight the group of 12 had traveled from 3 miles outside of LTN and the family had traveled like us from Colchester 20mins from STN so why did we all have to travel over 3hrs to travel through what looked and felt like a third world airport ... what must people traveling into LHR think of the MESS and bad layout and dated Airport, it is far from a good first impresion of London and the UK.

------- Sorry I had to get this of my chest :ugh:.

[Skipness One Echo]

Airlines should offer flights to STN or LTN as well as LHR, Lets say an Airline has 4-5 flights a day to the US why not have two to LHR and two to STN or LTN and one to MAN

Firstly I agree with the state of Terminal 3, T3 is horrible, but to their credit BAA have demolished T2 which was worse, built T5 which is actually really good once you know your way around, and revamped T4 departures to T5 look and feel, which is like an airport of its own on the South Side. T4 Arrivals revamp has been budgeted for too. Even T3's exterior forecourt has been spruced up but the piers are approaching the end of their lives and indeed pier 7 is to be demolished and replaced in the medium term with the replacement, mirroring the T5 / T2 layout. Demolishing the rest is the final part of the long drawn out revamp.

As to your question, I'm afraid you misunderstand the basic economics involved.
easyJet for example are indeed successful in point to point routes across several London airports but that business model does not translate to long haul legacy carriers. American came to Stansted to kill the opposition, not to bring long haul to Essex. These legacy carriers make money by offering frequent connections to premium passengers which in turn allows a good deal for the passenger down the back. London flights are cheaper than regional flights with say Continental or KLM as there is more competition at London. Economies of scale also play a part, if I book in advance I can generally get a way better fare out of London than if I book from lots of other European airfields.

Also the rise of the alliances means more co-operation and consolidation at their bases where they build a joined up route network for "seamless" connecting. Well we can hope (!) but it's better than it was.

You can't seriously expect everyone to have a world hub round the corner. You live in Essex and can drive to Heathrow. BAA didn't build the M25 you know. Isn't that a good thing that you have the chance to chose from so many destinations?

You can't even connect to legacy hubs at Stansted as the airport is predominantly a LOW cost Ryanair base with two failed US carriers in recent years. If someone operates legacy long haul from STN they will struggle to make sufficient money as the guys down the road in Heathrow have the front end sewn up allowing the back end to charge peanuts in some cases.
That won't happen at STN, with the back end charging more realistic prices and Joe Public going from LHR on price again.

Air Asia X is embarking on a relatively new idea, I wish them every success but they are starting with a clean sheet of paper. You are advocating that for example Continental operate

CO29 LHR-EWR
CO111 LGW-EWR
CO113 LTN-EWR
CO19 STN-EWR

Except that leave a single daily rotation out of the hub airport and the connecting traffic upon which the route makes money, AND drives down the Economy fares collapses. Hence I now pay more to fly to New York? These guys made a very deliberate choice to spend a LOT of money acquiring slots at Heathrow so they could move out of Gatwick.

[daz211]

I do understand most of the above but there are more than enough front end passengers who just fly across the pond in either direction and dont take connecting flights and most people in the UK fly to the US and connect to US cities.
If I was an American flying to Europe my very last choice of a connecting Flights would be via LHR its just to full and not very passenger friendly AMS,CDG and MAD are much nicer Airports.
Like you said STN had MaxJet and Eos who were doing ok until American Airlines came to bully them out, AA flight from STN were alway busy.
My point and your point regarding 3hrs drive to a International Hub - and BAA did not build the M25 is true but it should not take 3hrs to drive that distance and there are many people who drive to LHR who live all over the UK who drive past many Airports on the outskirts of London that could fill a flight to the US .

I guess I will just have to wait until next year when AirAsia may go Transatlantic :D.

[Seljuk22]

From 31st Oct Delta will increase flights to ATL (from daily to 11 weekly) and DTW (from daily to 10 weekly).

Air India will increase DEL from 10 weekly to double daily starting 31st Oct. DEL-LHR-YYZ and ATQ-LHR-YYZ will be cancelled.

BA will launch a 7th daily flight to JFK on 1st Dec.
Inaugural flight of the B777-300ER (configuration: F14 C56 W44 Y183) will be on 3rd Sep to BOM.
Other destinations are DEL, DXB and ORD.

Saudi Arabian will increase its flights to JED from current 7 to 9 weekly (9 inbound, 8 outbound) from 31st Oct.

Egyptair MS777/778 to CAI will be flown by B777-300ER from 1st Jan 2011.

[Seljuk22]

Delta applied for twice daily BOS-LHR and daily MIA-LHR starting next summer
Delta Air Lines Moves to Expand Competition at London's Heathrow Airport - Aug 26, 2010 (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1114)

Egyptair MS777/778 will be daily A333 (no increase to B77W).

[British Grenadier]

Yipppeeeee !!!! more Delta flights in T4 , more A/C waiting to get in to a already congested Terminal , and thats without Saudi going there in Nov :confused:

[Skipness One Echo]

Terminal 4 is way less congested than it used to be with BA. It has peak hours certainly with the evening rush from India but it's hardly at capacity like "one in one out" at Terrible 3.

Just wait until they get to the stage they were at with BA with heavies being bussed to and from Stands 451-456, 440-441 and even offloading at 430-432.

Happy days....er not.

Purely from a spotting point of view, some of the Delta flights this winter will be on the B767-300ERs with the mega winglets !

[Seljuk22]

bmi will increase Beirut from daily to double daily next summer. Up to 48% off with the bmi Seat Sale -Second daily service to be launched between London Heathrow and Beirut | Fly bmi (http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/en-gb/about-us/media-centre/press-releases/20100907.aspx)

Qatar Airways currently use B777-200LR on one of their daily flights.
Qatar Airways Boeing 777 introduced to London route | Aviation | AMEinfo.com (http://www.ameinfo.com/241700.html)

[Shingles]

Was I the only one to initially assume that the cardinal was slagging off Heathrow's infrastructural failings rather than the muticultural reality of the UK in 21st century? My first thought was that he had got it about right...

[MUFC_fan]

Was I the only one to initially assume that the cardinal was slagging off Heathrow's infrastructural failings rather than the muticultural reality of the UK in 21st century? My first thought was that he had got it about right...


It makes me giggle that a man who believes, or represents an organisation of people that believes that gay rights and condoms are sinful can have the cheek to call the world's 6th largest economy 'thrid world.':ugh:

However he meant to say it, it is a complete insult to the nation.

He obviously doesn't fly BA into T5!;)

[Skipness One Echo]

If you want to use the thread to have a dig at the Holy Father or the Roman Catholic Church then fair enough BUT please take it to Jet Blast. I ask this as a gay man myself. Remember :

1) It's going to offend a lot of good people
2) It's not relevant.

Please, this is not the place.

[Shingles]

Actually I posted on this not to bash the RCs but rather comment on ongoing Heathrow chaos. My misunderstanding of the broohaha was genuine and I felt a dork later on when I read the beeb's news. Fortunately I don't seem to be alone...
(http://insidetraveller.co.uk/blog/?p=1201)

[Seljuk22]

BA will launch 5 weekly flights to Tokyo-Haneda from 19th February.

Daily flights LHR-GRU-EZE will split to LHR-GRU and LHR-EZE each daily starting next summer.
Haneda Holiday British Airways Press Office (http://press.ba.com/?p=1446)

Furthermore BA will axe daily flights to Belgrade from 30th Nov.

[Seljuk22]

bmi will launch daily flights to Tripolis with A319 starting 1st December.

QF will increase their A380 services to LHR next year:
from 16th January SYD-SIN-LHR from 5 weekly to daily flights
from 15th March MEL-SIN-LHR from 2 weekly to daily flights

BA will launch daily flights to San Diego with B772 from 1st June.

[EISNN]

can anyone explain what's going on in LHR the last three days. have met a good few people coming off flights from there saying that they've been on their plane and had doors closed up to 15 minutes early :D and they waited on their stand for between 20 and 30 mins and then taxiied for about 20 mins? :ugh: they said that it was a runway closed for resurfacing purposes. what runway is closed? or is that even the real reason? :rolleyes: :confused:

[Fosters]

It is not runways that are closed, but specific taxiways that are closed for repairs.

Believe most of these closures are on the 09L/27R side of the airfield.

Fosters

[Nubboy]

Easterly winds means departures from 09R, which for flights from Terminal 1 is a very long hike (not to be compared with 36L at AMS though)

[Globaliser]

Heathrow website information here: Temporary changes to Heathrow runway alternation (http://www.heathrowairport.com/portal/page/Heathrow%5EGeneral%5EOur%20business%20and%20community%5EMedi a%20centre%5EPress%20releases%5EResults/724b0df42916a210VgnVCM10000036821c0a____/a22889d8759a0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____/).

[AvWRup]

Heathrow T5 gets mobbed Heathrow T5 gets mobbed (http://bit.ly/cA6GhR)

[Kavs8]

Anyone no whats going on in Heathrow today, lots of flights cancelled and delayed??

[Charley B]

Thick Fog!!

[Wycombe]

It's more than a bit foggy along the M4 corridor today, that might be it.

Not so bad at LHR, but LVP's will be in force I suspect:

EGLL 161320Z 07003KT 0800 R27L/0375 R27R/0750 FG BKN001 05/04 Q1021

[Kavs8]

Yea from that there visibility is substantially reduced no wonder flights are so delayed, also would heathrow delays in atc affect Gatwick, Stansted, Luton or City airports? Also suprising is that there was no SPECI released...

LATEST METAR BELOW:

EGLL 161520Z VRB03KT 0200 R27R/0450 R27L/0550 FG VV/// 05/05 Q1019

[jpthomas72]

... people on airliners.de spotted this: BA is moving its Luxembourg (LUX) flight from Gatwick with B737 to Heathrow with A319/320 on 27th March 2011. This is a 12/7, twice on working days, once Sat/Sun. This is a clever move as that will allow again long-haul connections via LHR, which LGW didn't really have. LUX is probably the best way to avoid Germany's new air-tax from Western Germany, easy to reach and very nice new terminal building. I like LGW as it's close to the south coast and has less delays than LHR, but that's a specialist's preference. Interestingly, Luxair used to go to LHR, but were pushed to go to LCY. Which meant LHR connections didn't work anymore from LUX thereafter.

[Street]

Luxair used to fly twice daily to LHR. I think Etihad is using their slots
on a 5-year agreement. Perhaps they will come back.

[WHBM]

Luxair used to fly twice daily to LHR. I think Etihad is using their slots
on a 5-year agreement. Perhaps they will come back.
I would guess Luxair make far more from renting their slots out to Etihad than ever they could make in profit operating into LHR from Luxembourg.

[Skipness One Echo]

I think the issue was that they had a morning and and afternoon slot but no evening slot. They were unable to acquire one as I heard that BAA weren't keen to allocate it to an ERJ-145. Quite how that tallies with bmi I know not.

Hence Luxair now operate four daily from London City with convenient departures spread throughout the day. Not sure why Luxair lost their evening slot if thet ever had one at Heathrow but it undermined the competitivness of the route.

[Baltasound]

Interesting article on Heathrow and potential links to it in Decembers edition of Modern Railways if folk are interested.

[legallooptheloop]

I posted something similar on the BHD thread a couple of days ago, but does anyone in the know have any idea if LHR is likely to be operational during the mid-morning tomorrow?

I'm due to fly out between 11 and 12, having suffered 2 cancellations over the course of the last 2 days. Seriously disappointing.


Cheers for any info, it would be much appreciated.

[MAN777]

With the closure and operational difficulties at LHR I am puzzled as to why there has been very little discussion about it. Is nobody interested ?

Up here at MAN all you need is a sparrow to fart and there are dozens of posts.

Come on there must be something to discuss / criticise / or applaud.:confused:

[bravoromeosierra]

My observation as a passenger attempting to fly yesterday morning: the airport tried too long to say they were open and were coping, when really they might not of been.

[Enji]

if anyone has any information about qatar airways or british airways rebooking i'd appreciate it very much.

girlfriend is coming from qatar airways to london (which got cancelled) and then from london to edinburgh. British airways put an automated answer message whenever you try to call them so i can't get any info at all. I need to know where i stand in rebooking the flight - i don't know when she will be getting the doha to london flight with qatar so she'll be stuck in heathrow unless someone can help me out.

edit to say: my girlfriend is stuck in a hotel in doha - i can't even contact her.

[Skipness One Echo]

I watched Mr Teacher, the dude with the perm from BAA blame BA for cancelling the flying program and claim LHR was operating normally as he was interviewd from the Radisson on Saturday with 27R departures invisible in the blizzard behind him. The fact that he was claiming LHR was operating through this and BA was at fault actaully made my jaw drop as I knew what was going to happen next with that volume of snow to clear. Why the **** didn't he????

Anyway took the Nikon out yesterday intending to get some shots in the snow and also as I'd never seen anything depart 09L ! Bearing in mind that the snow stopped falling some 20+ hours prior to this. Was out on foot from about 2-4:30pm and in that whole time there were the following movements :

BAW269 LHR-LAX
BAW33N LHR-MIA
VIR3J LHR-JFK
SIA317D LHR-SIN
VIR21 LHR-IAD

with
VIR7X LHR-LAX starting and pushing
VIR9987 LHR-??? ready to go.

From the North Perimeter road the airfield was idyllically calm with a single snow blower around T1. The aprons appeared to be pretty much snow bound. Airlines around T1 appeared to have given up and gone home. There were enough cleared taxiways to tow the Emirates A380 from 590 something to the gate. It seems Virgin Atlantic were pretty hard at work getting people out whereas some has just given up. It's not as if there were hundreds of people visible clearing ice and snow. That's what baffled me. The place appeared to be dead. Was it no longer worth the candle to try?

[Seljuk22]

Delta will fly 70 times a week to LHR next summer and all flights op. by a B764
ATL-LHR 11 weekly
BOS-LHR 14 weekly
DTW-LHR 10 weekly
MIA-LHR 7 weekly
MSP-LHR 7 weekly
JFK-LHR 21 weekly

Air Canada will add a second daily flight to Montreal from 15th May. Both flights will op. by a B763. Calgary will have just one daily flight with B77W compared to 12 weekly last summer. Vancouver also with just one daily flight.

Egyptair is planing the A333 instead of the A332 on MS 779/780 from 1st September. MS 777/778 will op. by a B77W.

Emirates EK 005/006 will op. by a B77W instead of the B773 from 1st December.

[eireoflot82]

pity the passengers and crew on ba 238 on saturday evening.it held over western ireland and then headed up to iceland.

[egnxema]

Iceland!? Really?

Were BHX, EMA, DSA, & MAN all unable to accept a divert? Even PIK?

Surely it is preferable to divert to a UK airport - where if worse comes to worse some pax have the option to terminate their journey and travel overland.

[Ian Brooks]

I think BHX had weather problems, MAN had said it was full and there were
certainly a lot of aircraft on the Saturday evening when I was there, EMA I think was full DSA and PIK I can`t speak for


Ian B

[renfrew]

All the southern UK airports were closed and the northern ones full.
BA had diversions to Athens,Larnaca,Shannon,Madrid,Dublin,Toulouse,Nice and Barcelona.
The Iceland one was turned away from Shannon.

[Violet Club]

There has been no snowfall at Heathrow since lunchtime on Saturday yet the southern runway is still closed. On Monday, the BAA was able to predict that it would remain closed all day Tuesday – and indeed it has – so what is going on?

A procession of BAA officials have been on the TV and radio telling us how "disappointed" they are that Heathrow collapsed in the course of an afternoon – that routine has worn very thin by now.

No-one seems to have asked the question yet, so I thought I would venture it – three days later what is going on with the runways at LHR?

VC

[MAN777]

Its probably part of their "snow plan" to divert all resources to one runway.

[Davidsoffice]

Presumably they are still clearing snow from taxiways and aprons.

[TopBunk]

Yet I am hearing from elsewhere that they were offfered Army assistance to clear the airport from contamination and declined:mad:

[TolTol]

In this day and age why the hell aint they able to deal with a little bit of snow? Would the same amount of snow close other major international airports?

[The Sandman]

The whole thing is an utter joke and a reflection on the inability of BAA to do much of anything right. It only happens every 100 years they yelp, but if memory serves, this has happened with some frequency in last few years.
If we spend money on required infrastructure (snow removal equip) we won't have money for other things, they cry. Like what? More body scanners and superfluous security related muck? Or maybe more shopfront facilities. Or more bonuses for the yellow jacketed ones with clipboards? Gotta set your priorities don't ya?
And the latest clownlike bleat, that : The aircraft must have the snow removed from below them before they can move... Cripes guys get a life. How in "entity-not-specific's" name do they do it in other parts of the world like Stockholm, Copenhagen, Boston, JFK, Oslo, etc.... Wow, they actually taxi OVER the stuff! How un-health and safety can you get? Amazing they don't crash airplanes every day there with such ridiculously unsafe practices.
One 3 hour snowfall, 4 days ago, and Heathrow is still on its knees. Unreal.

[Pilotinmydreams]

From a member of the public's point of view it seems rediculous that one of the world's busiest airports is unable to cope. As has already been mentioned, other counties and even other airports in the UK seem to cope admirably. 'Learning a lesson from the past' seems secondary to bottom line profit and customer dis-satisfaction.

I personally feel really sorry for the front line staff on the desks who are no doubt having to take the brunt of the passenger anger in the Terminals and who no doubt have no more information than the poor passengers themselves who just want to get where they want to go!

[Two's in]

The really telling aspect of this is everybody can come up with a semi-plausable excuse as to why the Airport is closed. Is it a British thing that more time and money is spent crafting the excuse than fixing the problem? On the bright side, it has allowed airports in Gabon and Ulan Bator to finallly measure up to the performance of Europe's busiest International Airport - well done you!

/Can hardly wait for the Olympics...

[JuliaHayes]

"'Learning a lesson from the past' seems secondary to bottom line profit and customer satisfaction."

From where I'm sitting, customer satisfaction seems to be at an all time low.

[Mike-Bracknell]

As I was there last night rescuing 4 relatives, we weren't even allowed to see desk staff but were just shouted at by some faceless BAA employee who looked to be on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

Ah well, at least the carparks were free.....which must be a first.

[DA50driver]

Because of the same people who yell at you for not wearing a yellow west. Because the same people are trying to "outsafe" each other. Because the Brits have allowed their country to be run by CCTV and the people that will keep them "safe". I love it when I am told "taxi at your own discretion". Are they telling me that if i run into something when this is not said I would be free of any responsibility related to said incident? I doubt it.

I went for a walk from the Cheshunt Marriott the other day and felt like a sheep. All along the sidewalks they had fencing to prevent stupid, incompetent people like me from crossing the road at a place other than that approved by someone that obviously knows much better than me what is safe.

During last years snow event I was delayed from unloading passengers for over one hour while they removed snow from my parking spot. Due to extensive cold weather experience I knew I could safely taxi in there, but the dipsticks wouldn't let me.

Maybe Heathrow will open again by April???

[Violet Club]

-- DavidsOffice

Three days later? What can there be left to clear by now? Again, there has been no snowfall on LHR since Saturday

-- Pilotinmydreams

We are not talking about desk staff here. I am wondering why one of the world's most important airports is operating without one of its two runways. This should have been the No. 1 priority for ground ops staff who should have been ready and waiting for this. We all knew it was coming. Clearing snow should have been a 24-hour job, at most, but three days later a runway is still closed.

The chaos in the terminals is another matter, but with a proper snow clearing plan there wouldn't be so much chaos.

Why is that runway still closed? Did someone scrape the surface off in the initial clearing attempts? I am struggling to find a reason, any reason, for this mess.

[Wirbelsturm]

Violet Club,

The problem could lie in the fact that the BAA made a £1 Billion profit last year and spent a massive £6 million in 'de-icing' investment.

I watched, somewhat distraught by the sight, a single tractor (Elf 'n' Safety yellow) with a rotating brush trying to make a dent on frozen snow on a 10,000 x 45m runway the other day. It's laughable.

When they (BAA) were challenged last time about the lack of infrastructure to deal with snow and ice the BAA merely claimed that their risk management strategy precluded further investment as the occurences were statistically too low to warrent it.

Once again the bean counters decide the strategy based upon a probability graph and the rest of us have to live with the results. :ugh:

[babemagnet]

Thats why everebody at my company calls the UK: Monkey Island

[connoisseur]

Never allow PR people to publish claims in the good times that your organisation can't deliver on when the going gets tough................. ;)

All Points North | Heathrow’s army of snow ploughs stretch their wings as snow bites (http://allpointsnorth.co.uk/2010/12/20/heathrows-army-of-snow-ploughs-stretch-their-wings-assnow-bites/)

[Fosters]

The "southern" runway,09R ,is now open. !!

[pabely]

Business as normal from....?

BAA LHR Website.....

Severe weather causing flight disruption
Tuesday 21 December - updated at 16:00

Heathrow is operating around one third of a normal flight schedule until 06:00 on Thursday 23 December.

[RB311]

As a result of the wonderful decision making processes that go on at BAA:

When they (BAA) were challenged last time about the lack of infrastructure to deal with snow and ice the BAA merely claimed that their risk management strategy precluded further investment as the occurences were statistically too low to warrent it.

it can only be good news for the UK branch of the Tree Hugging society. For not only will Heathrow not need a 3rd runway, it will soon not need a 2nd one as international airlines take a long hard look at their choice of European Hub.

I feel desperately sorry for all the people who have been hugely bug*ered up by this, but as I used to try to sell de-ciing/snow vehicles to BAA with very little success, as they simply delayed and delayed decisons, I look at BAA's situation with a certain amount of schadenfreude....

[22/04]

Why oh why if both runways are open is there a restriction until Thursday; is the runway open a euphemism (taxiways not open) or is BAA unable to react at less than 36 hours notice.

[possibleconsequences]

There are several reasons why British airports struggle in unusual weather patterns. Suppose Heathrow / Gatwick etc had spent, let's say 20 million between them on ploughs etc then , hey presto - no snow and disgruntled shareholders. They are in the hands of shareholders and , like it or not, that has a strong influence on their decisions.Working out what to spend based on probability of events is a reasonable approach - we all do it, sometimes it goes wrong.

I'm not trying to justify it , if you've privatised and sold off crucial parts of your infrastructure then, unsurprisingly, the profit motive will over ride the 'let's ensure we can cope with ANY extreme weather' motive.


Also, those who say it's only Britain are wrong, Brussels and Frankfurt airports are in an equally dire mess, as are roads all over northern Europe.

However, i know from personal experience in the industry that the health and safety culture (which is only there through fear of being sued should anything go wrong) and the ridiculous, paranoid security culture is crippling some aspects of the business in the UK. I know of staff who have been forbidden by managers from walking on snow in case they slip and then go for compensation, so god help a pilot if he/she suggests taxying over it!

Believe me, there are many of us in the industry who are sick and tired of the health and safety culture that has grown beyond simple, old fashioned 'common sense'. There are also, unfortunately, some dimwits in key positions who can't think of doing anything without writing a safety case first and don't even know how, at the very least, to inform people about what's going on, never mind run a complex situation

Again, however, those who are complaining loudest about being stuck in terminals and moaning about their ' rights' contribute to the perception in the industry that there must be no risk at all and a fear of having to pay compensation to passengers for situations beyond their control.

An extreme weather 'event', fear of litigation, health and safety regulations and airports which normally work at maximum capacity with no leeway makes for the situation we see now.

There is another point of view; maybe the fact that nobody has died and we should expect to be defeated by mother nature once in a while is a more pragmatic approach?

[Carpedeumuk]

One is tempted to think that this is a conspiracy by BAA to get its own back for being denied a 3rd runway, but seriously all it shows is how incompetent they are at running an airport with 2 runways. Perhaps they can take a leaf out of the premiership football clubs business plans which recognise the value of the playing pitches and actually invest in undersoil heating, well since the runway is the airport's equivalent "playing surface" why not invest in below surface heating to help stop snow accumulations, that and a decent fleet of snow clearing vehicles, could be provided and at a fraction of the cost of a 3rd runway they could afford a state of the art system.

[Violet Club]

I thought my capacity to be amazed by this shambles had been exhausted but then I read this quote from a BBC report:

>>BAA chief executive Colin Matthews admitted they had been "too optimistic" on Saturday.

"We were doing extremely well up to the middle of Saturday, then we were hit by snow which we have not seen in Heathrow certainly in my lifetime," he said<<

BBC News - Has Heathrow's reputation been damaged? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12049482)

As Mr Matthews himself points out there was no snow UNTIL the middle of Saturday at LHR, so quite what his definition of "doing well" prior to that is I have no clue.

The idea that the single fall of snow LHR experienced three days ago is somehow unprecedented is risible.

It now transpires that BAA did not even attempt to clear the southern runway, choosing instead to deliberately operate at half capacity and to therefore automatically fail its passengers without even breaking a sweat.

[Max Angle]

Its probably part of their "snow plan" to divert all resources to one runway.

As I said on another thread, we were told that they did not have enough de-icing fluid to keep two runways open and we were forced to cancel 2/3 of our program as a result. The government have apparently made available 100,000 litres of fluid from the military which is why it is now open. Truly pathetic if true.

[Carpedeumuk]

I don't think shareholders will be too impressed at the revenue losses and less quantifiable damage to reputation of the past few days, so I don't think the profit motive arising from privatisation holds water, besides do BAA have to buy snow clearance equipment or can they perhaps hire/lease it when needed at half the cost?

[Dan Dare]

B%gger the shareholders, what about the £100s of millions lost from the UK economy because another of our crown jewels is in the hands of the shareholders rather than recognised as a vital part of our common infrastructure. If the bigger picture was seen rather than the minutiae of profit margins then none of this would be allowed to happen.

except that it would be back in the hands of HM government, and we all know how successfully theytend to run things.

[True Blue]

Mech

I take it you work at Lhr or have close knowledge of what is happening? You have posted a well written article. Would you accept that a major part of the problem is that Lhr is just too full? When something goes wrong, it all becomes a very big problem very very quickly. If there is some merit to my point, is not Baa/Lhr and the airlines largely to blame for trying to keep putting more and more into a defined space?

TB

[Skipness One Echo]

mech assasin you're analysis basically says that everyone adhered to an agreed plan. Look at the results. Utter ineptitude on a grand scale.

How many children wet themselves?
How many babies cried all night?
How many pensioners went cold?
How many of our non English speaking guests got stuck?
How much pollution was caused by holding and holding and more holding.....?

I'm not going to argue with your argument which was well made. I think the point you need to grasp is that on a strategic level it was utter rubbish and not fit for purpose. The exception handling was weak as the data behind it was wrong. This winter is NOT a once in a lifetime event.
I didn't work. I'm not looking around thinking "This weather is exceptional" as I remember this sort of thing. It's the norm within living memory. A few inches of snow in winter. Not feet. Inches. This may be the coldest winter since 1910, but not in London where I live and Heathrow is a London airport, not in the Brecon beacons at -14 degrees.

My question? Given that some of the harshest winters are in the memory of my parents (1947 etc) wasn't it utterly indefensible to lose the ability to deal with a moderate snow fall in December? Epic fail Britain.

Who wants to own a British airport?
Properly run, LHR is a cash cow.

I sincerely hope that everyone affected, can in some way, find something to celebrate and enjoy this coming weekend.
I have no doubt you are sincere in this, but realistically, do you expect this? The reason I raise this, is that realistic expectations are BANG at the heart of this. It was comedically unrealistic to assume we'd not get snow like this.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Call me cynical, but I have a pretty strong theory about BA's motives for staying single runway.

If LHR stays on singlw RW Ops then it's clearly a weather issue, an "extraordinary circumstance" hence no compensation due.

If LHR goes to full operation and BA are still cancelling flights then they are on a bit of a sticky wicket as that would be seen as an operational decision hence EU261/2004 compensation due.

I reckon BA are trying to buy some time to get crews, A/C in to position before they resume full Ops.

[up & at it]

I have no doubt you are sincere in this, but realistically, do you expect this? The reason I raise this, is that realistic expectations are BANG at the heart of this. It was comedically unrealistic to assume we'd not get snow like this.

Couldn't agree more.

The plan, actions and a result are complete failure.

Here is a link to said "plan":

http://www.baa.com/assets/Internet/Heathrow_Airside_and_Baggage/Downloads/PDFs/Aerodrome_Snow_Plan_2010_2011.pdf

The maximum catagory depth it goes up to is "greater than 2cm". It is clear they were completely under planned and resourced otherwise it would not have taken 4 DAYS to get going again.

The rest of mech assain's text is rather feeble excuses for following the plan that was no good in the first place.




PS I've just read this again:
On Monday the nearly all of stands and taxiways were in use and resource could have been deployed to the southern runway, however a management team from BAA, airlines, AOC and ATC agreed that this was not a priority and that the airlines, due to aircraft in the wrong places, crew out of hours and terminals full of passengers could not meet the capacity of even one runway. A NOTAM was issued explaining the capacity constraints agreed on single runway operation which ran until Wednesday morning.


Are you serious? Not giving airlines the flexibility to get in and out of LHR and clear the backlog and deal with current flights was not a priority?
I read the NOTAM, it restricted all operators to 1/3 of their usual movements or less.
Even now you are not giving them full capacity.
You must be having a laugh with your prioritisation.

[WHBM]

Mech Assassin :

That "plan" is just ludicrous.

and in the event LHR has significant snow fall, just one runway will be maintained.Whoever came up with this one ? At Helsinki (which has more runway length to maintain than Heathrow) they constantly apply winter maintenance to ALL runways throughout any snowfall.

last Friday BAA treated all surfaces with Glycol media to ensure that LHR had initial protection from any snowfall..... this lasted almost two hours into Saturdays snow, before it was overwhelmed and snow began to settle on the runways.So nothing was done during the snowfall at all ?

BA and BAA coordinated on Friday night to treat stands with aircraft on, however due to availability of BA tow crews, only one stand was treated properly after more than a two hour wait for them to become free.So the co-ordination was no co-ordination. How did BAA not know about this non-availability ? Don't forget, it was a "co-ordinated" plan.

the airline community who have supported the strategy set out in this documentYou trying to tell us that Finnair supported leaving runways untouched for four days ? Pull the other one. Over in Helsinki they are just dumbstruck at the stupidity of it all.

[Skipness One Echo]

I'm saying be realistic in having expectations.

People look at other countries in worse situations and see them coping better.
The misguided expectations lie with BAA and the industry.

People aren't stupid and I honestly feel we're being taken for fools. We know not enough contingency was set aside as the stats and assumptions that the risk management was based on seem to be pretty dubious. We can see the snow has not been disastrous, people aren't in the main dying or freezing to death, life is going on. We're not asking for 100%, we're looking for better than "utterly shambolic".

If an airline doesn't agree with the Snow Plan they should ensure their representative on the AOC makes that clear.... do they even attend the AOC at LHR?
If this is what destroyed the strategic operation of a national asset, what does that say about the management?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Snow-Heathrow-Airport-Trains-Pressure-Mounts-On-Transport-Operators-Over-Frozen-Christmas-Getaway/Article/201012415864224?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15864224_Snow%2C_Heathrow_Airport%2C_Trains%3A_P ressure_Mounts_On_Transport_Operators_Over_Frozen_Christmas_ Getaway

so he should:D

[True Blue]

One of the major problems not mentioned here is that the travelling public want the cheapest fares. We can see clearly BA trying to cope with that demand, not very well and one of the results is that airlines want to operate with as few staff as possible. They want us to use the net. When things go badly wrong, there just is not the staff to deal with it all. WE can all see that all handling agents operate with minimum staff, because airlines will not pay to have lots of staff to handle flights. Web sites go down under the pressure of demand. Info is not updated properly, hence you see a flight "on time" maybe about 24 hours after it should have arrived/departed. This whole problem is not the fault of one single company, we all share the blame. If BA were to provide the perfect service, they would have to charge more, but they would be bankrupt as all the pax booked Ryanair or somebody else who is cheaper.

TB

[Violet Club]

Mech Assassin

Your account is the first coherent explanation of the situation I have seen and I appreciate the time it took for you to set it all out.

For all the detail in this Snow Plan it is clear that it failed utterly, and failed in the face of really not that much adversity at all.

There was one fall of snow on LHR during Saturday morning/early afternoon that left about 6 to 8 in of snow on the airfield. After that there was no more snow and by Monday it had even begun to thaw.

The 'one runway' strategy would be just about understandable in the face of heavy and persistent snowfall, but that's not what we got.

I can't help but feel that very little 'strategy' was employed here and that very little of what we have been told was true.

[British Grenadier]

I crossed 27 L/09R at 08.30 am , and then runway had a single cleared lane down the center , the snow had turned to slush , when BAA finally got off their backside's , ( early afternoon ) it took them 2 hours to clear the runway .................pathetic .................

[circseam]

I had a flight with Emirates (EK002) with a departure time of 13.45, I arrived at the airport 4 hours before the flight, the journey while fraught was managed fine with major A roads and motorways fine only to be confronted by a scene from a third world nation at Heathrow. Electronic signs were not been updated outside with flight information so everyone was in the dark as to flight status.

People were being physically prevented from entering the airport at all entry points, massive cues enveloped each entry point which turned in to an uncontrollable push by all to be at the head of the que to be able to hear the "official" persons on the door advising that only Egyptair flights would be allowed in.

After waiting for an hour and with very little information being advised to anyone outside of the terminal I spoke with Emirates UK office whom were not aware that their passengers were being held back at the terminal doors, with one hour prior to the departure time Emirates advised us to gain entry as best we could as the flight was due to leave on schedule.

We gained entry by a little brute force on my part to enter the terminal to find a massive cue awaiting at the check in (Emirates had not allowed on-line bookings for this flight), it emerged that in this cue were people for the flights from the previous day, people for the current flight and persons for the later flight, looking around it was alot more organised than other flights!

We made the flight after nearly a 3 hour delay (we were advised on the plane that a small fire had ocurred in the baggage area and that some of our baggage was still in there!) and arrived safetly in Dubai.

The whole process at Heathrow was a complete shambles on the part of the airport operator, very little informatin was being given out, this was then shouted to the masses, only in English (not good for anyone whom didnt speak English and as an international airport why arnt the electronic signs used to convey information?)

It was embarassing to be English and over in Dubai the newspapers are conveying a message of poor orgaisation and complete dissaray, regretably I have to agree!

[Capot]

I am posting this here because it's a serious problem.

BAA's management, at Heathrow, has demonstrated that they are unfit ro run the UK's major air transport hub, or indeed any airport at all. Whether this is due to under-resourcing as a result of the huge leveraged debt that the Spaniards bought it with, or simply lack of knowledge of how to run an airport, is neither here nore there.

I am qualified to comment as a one-time BAA employee who also ran a UK airport for 7 years. The recent LHR closure should never have happened, let alone continued for as long as it did, and it was easily preventable. This is not hindsight; it is what anyone with the right experience knows.

It is time for the regulator to step in, on economic and safety grounds. They issue and re-issue the licence under which BAA operates Heathrow, and the lack of funds and/or knowledge must throw into question BAA's suitability to run an airport.

I only need one illustration. Responding to an article saying that their stocks of de/anti-icing fluid werre insufficient for financial reasons, an extremely unpropossessing "spokesman" angrily affirmed that they had more than enough. He did not seem to understand that this raised the question of why it was not used properly when the snow falls that closed the airport unnecessarily had been forecast.

What else is unsafe about Heathrow that the management is not in control of?

As an economic regulator, The CAA should also step in now, if necessary to take over the management of a national asset, to prevent further damage to the UK's air transport industry.

Perhaps the real problem that the UK has is the supine complaisance of the CAA and its refusal to do its job effectively, robustly and promptly.

I can undersatand, without condoning, the Spanish owners' focus on their balance sheet. Why would they care about the UK economy? The CAA exists, as any regulator does, to impose its will on such an operator to achieve purposes over and above the operator's profits, such as safety and the industry's wider interests.

Heathrow's management collapse over the last week or two has dealt an economic blow to the UK that will take a long time to recover from. Is the only penalty paid by BAA going to be what appears to be a voluntary handing back of an unearned bonus by a man who is paid a huge salary in the first place? He should have been sacked already, along with his useless "team". Who awarded him this bonus in the first place? One suspects that it was automatic.

[Trash 'n' Navs]

Sheesh Capot, little OTT. Not sure you can draw a parallel between what's happened this week and their ability to operate a safe airport.

By no measure was their performance good this week and I think that EGKK's performance will shine a spotlight on EGLL that gets the attention of government and industry alike.

Colin M should update his CV though...

[Sonorguy]

It would have been unsafe if they'd remained open the way it was. Unprepared, yes. Slow to respond, yes. Unsafe? not really.

[anotherthing]

definitely an OTT statement.

By the way, EGKK may have been better in the publics eye (second time round, not first time) but from an ATCOs point of view, the airfield operator wasn't exactly 'on the ball' either during either snowfall.

Lots of lessons to be learnt all round, including some Airline Operators, in what was very trying circumstances.

[Trash 'n' Navs]

Anotherthing,

These days, perception = reality.

[anotherthing]

Trash 'n' Navs

Aint that the truth.

Capot,

I'd be interested to hear how you would have dealt with it, costings etc. It's very easy to write in hindsight (even if you claim it isn't). You used to be in the business... which probably means that you don't know what went on in the background.

Which airfield did you run, by the way? As busy or complex as EGLL perchance?

There are lessons to be learned by all, but these lessons will only be relevant if all the information is used. Someone on the outside, looking in can snipe... that's easy to do, but unless you know the story from start to finish, including the minute by minute flow of informationduring the week, from all agencies, then personal opinions carry no weight.

I can guarantee that those fully 'in the know' (and I am not one of them, though did have some involvement) will be workng to ensure that disruption is minimised in the future. At a more local level the team I work with have already started that process to share our experiences with other watches.

[Capot]

Another thing...I am still in the business; I just don't run an airport any more.

I'm afraid I sense in some of the replies too great a willingness to forgive and move on.

I stand by my statement that the closure should not have happened and under a knowledgeable and experienced management, with proper resources and finance would not have happened.

That's the rub; you need a knowledgeable and experienced management to run an airport safely in all respects, let alone an owner which understands its obligations, and I saw little of that in the last few days.

In my book "learning lessons and moving on" is a code for "carry on as before, thank God we got away with it without being sacked".

I have noticed over a longish life that very little changes for the better unless people fear for their future if it does not, by reference to what happened to those in charge when it last went wrong.

[Rananim]

Well,Ive always been amused by just how little snow it takes to shut down London's airports(and the roads and the railways:rolleyes:).1-2 inches and theyre screaming closure.Scandinavian airports are (Naturally I suppose) a good example for London to try and follow.They can clear a runway in 20-30 minutes and their remote automatic de-icing gear is first class.In theory,as LHR has 2 runways,it should never have shut down at all(1 rwy being cleared,1 rwy in operation and so on) but I dont know how much snow did actually fall.A snow blizzard will shut down the best prepared airport,but 2 inches of snow?

[Shell Management]

While shutting down when the snow level became unmanagable was a necessary and correct safety action, BAA is an airport operator and its management system is bigger than just its ICAO mandated SMS.

The bottom line is that BAA is meant to be an airport operator and needs to have a safe way to OPERATE its airports not simply a safe way to shut them down.:=

That means having appropriate measures to manage the safely hazards they face.

Although the weather in the UK has been worse this year than usual, snowfalls earlier in the year and those that affected Gatwick earlier in the month all were valid warnings to BAA.

It appears that BAA choose to run risks rather than manage them and thus have suffered a catastrophic clsoure.

The inability to manage business risks suggests that either capot is correct and that we should doubt the inability of the BAA board to manage safety risks OR that if the BAA SMS is funtional, then the underlying safety culture is one of simply doing what the safety regulator tells them.

One can therefore conclude that:

The entire board of BAA are failing in their duties as directors of an airport operator and should be removed
The CAA should seriously look at the management comptence and safety culture at BAA and make appropriate recommendations for the new board
The CAA, as an economic regulator, need to introduce penalties when critical national infrastructure is not resilient to foresseable and controllable hazards

[ILS27LEFT]

I agree with all comments on modern airlines and cost cutting now clearly gone beyond common sense: airlines have moved to lower fares, due to low cost carriers, which meant less Agents on the ground, less staff at check in but most importantly less specialised agents at their ticket offices for reprotections, rerouting of tickets etc.
Having hundreds of self check-in e-machine at the terminals is great when everything goes as scheduled. If there is any type of disruption you cannot go and talk to a machine, the screen cannot do anything for you, only real people with ticketing and fare experience can really help and sort you out with your flights, hotels, car hire, etc.
The recent snow disruption has been massive, thousands of people got stranded at LHR but airlines must remember that clients are important as much as their own staff working on the ground, these people are left alone by Management: to leave a handful of ground agents alone facing thousands of irate passengers is simply criminal and it should be against Health and Safety regulations. I have seen ground Airline Agents literally crying, exhausted and humiliated by the infuriated crowds, left totally alone just at XMas.
Airlines should really act with respect, I do not understand why Unions do not step forward on this issue, these people are underpaid and they get hit badly whe things go wrong and BAA/Airlines are not prepared, Agents on the ground should probably earn more money than pilots and certainly more than cabin crew. They earn peanuts I have been told.
I have witnessed with my eyes crowds of irate customers releasing all their ferocious anger against these under-paid employees only because they have an airline Uniform, they had to call the police regularly to avoid serious injuries.

Our modern society is really upside down: Managers sitting in a leather chair watching SkyNews and incapable of organising a simple snow plan and the base of the underpaid workforce being directly penalised by these awful mistakes, people on 300K p.a. or more doing all wrong at the top, and people on 14K p.a. or less just being abused by irate customers at the bottom.

Would it not be better to pay a little more for a ticket and get the service back as it used to be only 15 years ago?

The world is gone mad.:rolleyes:

I do not blame the airlines, I blame this crazy system now.
It has just gone out of control I think:ok:

[Walnut]

One thng that needs to be resolved in these difficut times is the release of information and the ability of pax at the airport to rebook.
Has anyone considered that one way to help the logjamb is for the BAA to have numerous FREE internet screens dotted around the terminal. These terminals need to have icons on the home pages which give links to all the airlines hotels transport links etc. They must NOT have the ability to be used for any other internet business. I believe all airports around the world should provide this service

[pax britanica]

Driving along the M4 tonight my attentio was caught by a radio ad claiming that if you fly through Heathrow youhave a fabulous selction of designer and top branded goods at prices 15% below Londons West End.The ad ened witha tag line jingle 'Heathrow -making journeys better'!!!

I am sure many people over the last week were thrilled at the shopping opportunites at UKs largest retail park with runways while they were left without information, flights, food etc etc because the people who manage the place spend more on shopping facilties than airport operations .

Sadly however Heathrow is just a poster boy for the muppet show management we have in UK interested solely in their own position and salary while caring nothing for the enterprise they are supposed to run

Happy Christmas all

[Married a Canadian]

As busy or complex as EGLL perchance

Lots of lessons to be learnt all round, including some Airline Operators, in what was very trying circumstances

Anotherthing...the problem I have watching this from overseas in a country that deals with this year after year is that Heathrow can't offer excuses because it is "busy and complex" because so are other airports round the world that deal with this.
What lessons need to be learned...when they are already in place again at other airports round the world with similar movements and equally complex ground movements?

Letting people off the hook with the statements you make should not be acceptable as EGLL can learn from NUMEROUS agencies round the world..but either choose not to..or think they are unique.
It is embarrassing being British in YYZ at the moment.....the "different snow", "unprecedented events", "complexities of LHR" lines all are met with the question..

What was the snow plan then to deal with such things?
An airport that important to the infrastructure closing down at one of the busiest times of year is appalling.

Imagine if we were as poorly prepared in ATC...we'd get lambasted. Nothing would get in and out of the airspace around England if you/we were as inflexible as the snow plan the BAA had in place.
Aviation is supposed to be a flexible industry and also all about handling the unexpected (why do we train for full radar failures when they supposedly never happen...why do the airlines simulate complete engine failures when they hardly ever happen???)
The plan put in place for an airport that deals with 65 million passengers annually get stalled within a couple of hours. That to me from a professional perspective is a disgrace. I don't care about CDG and AMS and FRA and the fiascos there....as a Brit I care about my so called flagship hub..

BTW the only thing I do agree with as has been mentioned before is that an airport that operates at 98% capacity all the time is always going to come unstuck when something screws up the operation. If any lessons are going to be learned then it has to be something to do with spare capacity or cutting the flow rate for bad weather.

[sky9]

BTW the only thing I do agree with as has been mentioned before is that an airport that operates at 98% capacity all the time is always going to come unstuck when something screws up the operation. If any lessons are going to be learned then it has to be something to do with spare capacity or cutting the flow rate for bad weather.

Be prepared to extend the opening hours in similar situations might just help.

[British Grenadier]

****e , ****e , the reaction to the " Snow " was ****e , punter's in Terminal 3 sleeping on the floor , no , sign , of ANY , info !!!! , NONE :D:D:D:D, CLEARENCE OF SNOW :=:=:= bugger all , day 27L/09R got cleared , it took 2hr's , LHR OP's , trying to prove a point ??????... HHhhhmmmm.................

[Seljuk22]

From today until 15th January EK puts the A380 on flight EK 029/030.
They're are 3 daily A380 flights LHR-DXB in this period.

[up & at it]

Two interesting developments....

1. Virgin are witholding payment to BAA because of the snow feasco....

2. I see Mech Assassin has delete his posts on this forum which tried to defend BAA's record and to which many of us responded - in a not too favourable manor.

Any news on the progress of this internal enquiry? If its internal, I bet there's opportunity for some white washing (all puns intended!)

[WHBM]

1. Virgin are witholding payment to BAA because of the snow fiasco....
I see that while it took 4 days to get the snowploughs to the south runway, BAA lawyers were able to get their statement about "no basis for the witholding of payments..." out to the press within minutes of the story emerging.

Sort of shows you where their management priorities lie, doesn't it ?

[FR-]

Sort of shows you where their management priorities lie, doesn't it ?

Im not sure i agree with you, Virgin and LHR have been 'having words' about these patments for a few days before it became public. So more likely LHR managers had afew days to have statement at the ready.

You might want to start asking why does virgin need to hold these payments or is it a cheap PR stunt ryanair style?

fr-

[Skipness One Echo]

You might want to start asking why does virgin need to hold these payments or is it a cheap PR stunt ryanair style?

They don't "need" to, what a blatant **** stirring insinuation. Hurting BAA where it hurts is the only way these people give issues attention. I'm not criticising BAA per se, it's just the way that business, with perpetual firefighting issues works. Under the current regulatory framework, there are few other options.

One thing I do like about FR, is their ability not to take the utter bollocks from some airport operators that some do. BAA basically accused BA of not being willing to run the operation when the snow came. Try and find PR man Mr Teacher (he of the perm), being interviewed on BBC in a blizzard off 27R when the snow came. "Well bmi are still flying" he said as the sound of an invisible aircraft departing into a flurry of snow rumbled past.

[Seljuk22]

UA will cancel its daily flight DEN-LHR from summer. On the other hand UA's IAD-LHR will go up from current 3 daily to 4 daily.

[londonman]

Looking at the list of available equipment in the BAA Snow Plan does seem a bit lightweight. They have 9 Sicards that are towed behind Unimogs but then also list ten Sicard/Blowers which presumably are towed behind the Danline 2000. However, Googling Danline 2000 just comes up with a brush! Can anyone shed any more light on the actual equipment? That's it. About 20 bits of kit.

Helsinki has 250 bits of kit from what I can discover. One article claims that Frankfurt has 42 snowploughs but since the same article states that LHR has 28 I kind of take that one with a pinch of salt. A better article in a German aviation magazine quotes six snow blowers and 42 snow sweepers at Frankfurt. 12 large de-icing vehicles as opposed to LHR with 4 and one of those is a tiddler. Frankfurt invested in 16 million Euros for this stuff. Compared to 600,000 Euros for LHR. A three-shift operation employs more than 300 employees.

Comparing the list in the Appendix with that listed elsewhere in the document reveals a lot of discrepancies which to my mind reflects the cavalier attitude towards investment in snow clearing equipment.

Whichever way you cut it, BAA cut corners.

[sky9]

Whichever way you cut it, BAA cut corners or costs and everyone else paid the price.

[British Grenadier]

Saw a low loader with part's of a very big snow blower or similar type vehicle being delivered to the BAA Snow base by the Midland Hanger last night , does that mean someone has actually realized at the ivory towers of BAA , that their pathetic effort to keep LHR operational during snow , wasn't fooling anybody .....:ok:

[WHBM]

Can anyone shed any more light on the actual equipment? That's it. About 20 bits of kit.
You don't need to actually own all the equipment full time. Although some items like snowblowers don't have much other use, most of the equipment required, tractors, loaders, dump trucks, etc can be either other airport equipment, or hired in by the day for the event. Likewise the operators.

Looking at snow handling in Helsinki and in Canada, much of what they were using was obviously hired in from outside civil engineering contractors and similar, as required. The key is to have your arrangements properly in place ready to go when you say so, and being sure the kit is actually available.

Of course, I am sure some can envisage the gate at Heathrow at the start of a blizzard, with all the dump trucks lined up to come rushing in, and some jobsworth managing to find that the security passes were the wrong colour or something !

[Whalerider]

A few days ago I had the misfortune to travel through Heathhell, as my flight to LGW was cancelled. Arriving at Terminal 4, where most of the gates were empty, astounded to see an enormous queue to pass through immigration. No problem I thought - I will use the IRIS scanner. Only to find that it was blocked off. When I asked why I was told - "Oh its not working". OK, please tell where to queue for the electronic chip passport reader "Oh, its not working" was the reply. It took 25 minutes to get through immigration.

The same day a friend flew in T3, and it took 90 (NINETY) minutes to transfer to T5.

What a joke BAA and Heathhell are ! And they wonder why I and an increasing number of connecting passengers avoid it like the plague.

[WHBM]

Whatever will the imbeciles at Hacan think up next

BBC News - Heathrow night flights ban 'could save £860m a year' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12295411)

"Saving £860m a year" reminds me of those discount frniture shops, where the shoddy £1,000 sofa is reduced to £200, and am told that I am therefore "saving £800".

More particularly, why does every little press release they do get star billing in BBC News ? Do you think that Hacan have somehow managed to get compromising photographs of the BBC Director General ?

[Skipness One Echo]

Commissioned by Hacan Clearskies which campaigns for a ban on night flights, the study suggests savings would be in costs linked to sleep deprivation.

A report paid for and commisioned by a pressure group agrees with the exisiting opinions of the pressure group and make the supposedly "impartial" BBC News. The same BBC based in West London, under finals for 27L / 27R.

Quiet news day then.

[LGS6753]

The BBC has an editorial stance on most things, eg:

EU = good

Labour = good

Cuts = bad

Global "warming" = bad

Aircraft = bad

:ugh::yuk:

[WHBM]

Aircraft = bad
However :

BBC editorial staff all going off to worldwide news and sports events in large numbers = good.

I wonder which airport they use ....... ?

[Out Of Trim]

I wonder which airport they use ....... ?

Err, Gatwick and Manchester I believe........!! :suspect::suspect::suspect:

[natops]

What's going on in LHR Terminal, anybody?

[west lakes]

A quick news search turned up

BBC News - Heathrow's Terminal 5 evacuated due to suspect package (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12701967)

[MagnusP]

Now reopened, according to the BBC.

[El Grifo]

For sure it'll be them Mexican Fundimentalists up to their tricks again :E

[119.4]

Just to close this off properly

British Pound vs US Dollar (UK) GBP softer with dealers attributing concerns over incident at Heathrow airport- The UK media reports that a man threatening to blow himself up at Heathrow Terminal 5. Now in a stand-off with armed police -

Follow up 8:57 EST: The person is now in police custody

[El Grifo]

Would that have been a "Mexican Stand Off" then ?:ok:

[compton3bravo]

Maybe off with his head more appropriate!

[Seljuk22]

Aegean Airlines will use the Olympic Air slots to increase ATH-LHR from 2 daily to 4 daily (all flights with A321) and will start LCA-LHR daily with A320 from 27th March.

[British Grenadier]

Staff Bus Stop T3

Ok , i'm bored and frustrated , but who are the bright sparks that decided to move the staff bus stops at Terminal 3 , after spending all that money on new ones , with a digital display in each one , we now have to cross 2 more main road's to get to work , perhaps the same muppets behind BAA's snow plan :ugh:

[El Grifo]

So what was the final grif on the unattended package, the stand-off and the alleged "blow-up" attempt ?

Anyone able to shed some light ?

[British Grenadier]

It didn't go bang !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

[filejw]

London ?Land Grab? Looms as Branson Mulls Virgin Atlantic Fate - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-23/heathrow-land-grab-looms-as-branson-mulls-virgin-atlantic-fate.html)

What would this mean for VAA workers..??

[DjerbaDevil]

Needs must!!!!

Normally a question mark would be added to the end of the above but the exclamation marks are more appropriate.

[WHBM]

From the article :
a “once-in-a-generation” chance for Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL) (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=DAL:US) and Air France-KLM Group to grow at London Heathrow (http://topics.bloomberg.com/london-heathrow/), Europe (http://topics.bloomberg.com/europe/)’s busiest airport.
The U.K. billionaire is considering options for his Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd., whose 288 takeoff and landing slots at Heathrow are 3 percent of the total. A buyer would be able to use the slots to add lucrative flights to U.S. and Asian business markets
Ah yes. Would these "lucrative flights" be like the daily 777 flight that Air France started from Heathrow to LAX a year or so ago, which was an absolute financial fiasco for them ?

[WHBM]

A significant advertising campaign has sprung up for Heathrow all across the London Underground in recent days, on posters and inside the carriages, describing all the improved resources being applied to the airport over the combined Easter and Wedding/May Day consecutive long weekends.

It opens with the surprising news that Heathrow will be operating 1500 extra flights over this time. That certainly got my attention and I looked hard to ensure I hadn't misread it. Yes, all the posters say 1500 extra flights. I wish I could find the ad on the web.

Now let us say that the whole two weekends span 10 days, including the middle days. And that the 1500 extra flights is counting both arrivals and departures. That's still 75 extra arrivals, and 75 departures, on every day of the 10 days.

I'm sure that operators into this desperately slot limited airport, with its constant holding prior to landing due to continuous maximum rate runway operations, where no meaningful extra slots have been available for a long time, every slot from curfew-off at 0600 to curfew on late in the evening is taken daily, and where a SINGLE slot pair has been said to trade for more than £25m, will no doubt be wondering where all this additional capacity has suddenly come from. And ops departments must surely be planning extra fuel for even longer inbound holding than normally.

But do you know, scrutiny of major carrier schedules over this time shows not a single extra service I can find. Not one, let alone 75 extra departures each and every day. So goodness knows how they will carry any extra passengers if they can't be booked.

Do you think BAA have made just a Teeny Weeny little exaggeration in their advertising ?

[El Grifo]

A petit mot springs to mind. Original it is not.

However !

B ankers !!!

[Jamie2k9]

Delta to reduce LHR - Boston from 2 June after only starting the route a few weeks ago.

Up to 2 June
2 daily B764

From 2 June
1 daily B764
1 daily B757

Delta to Cut Capacity on Boston (http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/108036/delta-to-cut-capacity-on-boston-a-london-heathrow/)

[Trinity 09L]

Extra Easter flights

They know the weather will be better, then there are statistics and misinformation, any advertsing standards folk out there?:bored:

[LGS6753]

1500 more flights than they managed under the ash cloud last year?

[Nubboy]

"I'm sure that operators into this desperately slot limited airport, with its constant holding prior to landing due to continuous maximum rate runway operations,"

Sorry whbm, but had a straight to left base from LAM the other friday evening. Less traumatic than a Westcott snatch, but still good fun and quite challenging to get the height and speed off. Even Nigel managed it a few callsigns behind us. All adds to ther drama of the place, what:ok:

[canberra97]

Star?

Don't you mean Skyteam!

[WHBM]

Sorry whbm, but had a straight to left base from LAM the other friday evening. Less traumatic than a Westcott snatch, but still good fun and quite challenging to get the height and speed off. Even Nigel managed it a few callsigns behind us. All adds to ther drama of the place, what:ok:
No need to apologise for a straight in approach :) I've had one or two there as pax myself. Of course when it happens it's then annoying to come within cricket ball-throwing distance of the gate at T5 and then wait 20 minutes for the ground crew to saunter up.

However, Nubboy, was that you coming overhead my house (close to LCY) late last Friday with the speedbrakes all thrown out, and quite audible from the ground - like a Stuka !

In passing, didn't BA 38 (the 777 accident) unusually get a straight-in approach and so ran right down to finals with things throttled back, rather than some laps round Lambourne at warmer low level with the power on ?

[Nubboy]

Unlikely to have been me, maybe someone else found themselves short of track miles. Give me a time and I'll check my logbook:ok::ok:
However a light A319 does not like going down and slowing down, so sometimes we put the gear out early to add drag.

[NorthernCounties]

Was driving between Ashford and Osterley today and noticed either a 767/777 in an old livery in front of a maintenance hanger which is next to the Jury's Inn. Is this a new aircraft in retro livery or just a very old plane... if so, what is it used for? Cheers, NC.

[bravoromeosierra]

In response to the poster above:

PICTURE: British Airways unveils 'retro' livery as 757 era ends (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/10/05/348135/picture-british-airways-unveils-retro-livery-as-757-era-ends.html)

[NorthernCounties]

Cheers BRS!

[Globaliser]

In response to the poster above:

PICTURE: British Airways unveils 'retro' livery as 757 era ends (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/10/05/348135/picture-british-airways-unveils-retro-livery-as-757-era-ends.html)And also a thread here: http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/429554-ba-retrojet-its-happened.html

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Less traumatic than a Westcott snatch>>

And I always thought you pilot chaps and chapesses liked them.... Scary bit was being the Heathrow North Director and saying "turn right 190, long base leg 09L" at exactly the time that the South man had snatched one off Midhurst!!

[chinapattern]

Quite surprised to see Vietnam Airlines opting for Gatwick over Heathrow - I assume it's down to slots. Airlines such as Avianca, TAAG, LAN and Aerolineas Argentias have all been rumoured to starting up Heathrow for ages I've always wondered where all the slots would come from? Are there any slots avaliable or are they accounted for? What happened to CSA's when they pulled out?

[Skipness One Echo]

Air New Zealand's AKL-HKG-LHR service was down for Gatters as well but some slots became available before launch so it was swiftly transferred to Heathrow. However slots at the times Vietnam are looking to operate are pretty scarce.

[globetrotter79]

Are there any slots avaliable or are they accounted for? What happened to CSA's when they pulled out?

BA bought CSA's LHR slots...this essentially provided the slots that enabled them to start twice daily LHR-GOT.

[Seljuk22]

DL will cancel one of its two flights to BOS next winter.
DELTA initial W11 Long-Haul Operation Changes as of 04JUN11 | AIRLINE ROUTE (http://airlineroute.net/2011/06/04/dl-w11-update1/)

LH Italia will cease its operation starting next winter. LHR-MXP will be cancelled.
Lufthansa -*Lufthansa changes its Italy strategy (http://presse.lufthansa.com/en/news-releases/singleview/archive/2011/may/23/article/1936.html)

SQ will introduce the A380 on its 3rd daily flight to SIN later this year.
Singapore Airlines to Bring Additional A380 to London :: Routesonline (http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/113320/singapore-airlines-to-bring-additional-a380-to-london/)

MH and TG plan to introduce the A380 to LHR next year.
MAS details A380 delivery plan (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/05/27/357274/mas-details-a380-delivery-plan.html)

Thai Airways continues to pioneer and modernise | Easier (http://www.easier.com/88994-thai-airways-pioneer-modernise.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWCdkBoV1c

[jamesp]

just seen a319air Canada take of from heathrow. are they doing a similar business as ba regarding a318 to new York or is there another reason for it being here

[The96er]

just seen a319air Canada take of from heathrow. are they doing a similar business as ba regarding a318 to new York or is there another reason for it being here

I believe it's the seasonal route to St John's.

[Trinity 09L]

There is a lot of nimby commotion in the Berkshire area press about the variation to use 09 for departures * - when the Cranford agreement ceases/or is abandoned. It is commented that London Boro' of Hillingdon will delay planning permission to HAL.

* therefore the majority of landing traffic uses 09L

How much work is necessary at 09L alongside T5 to allow a full flow of departing traffic, and how will T4 traffic reach 09L start up?

[lgwpave]

How much work is necessary at 09L alongside T5 to allow a full flow of departing traffic


Current plans are for a new lead-on to 09L and new links between Alpha & Bravo taxiways in that area.

More work is required to provide Rapid Exit Taxiways for 09R to give access to either CTA or T4 (current RETs only serve 27L).

As for T4 departures from 09L - take a good book to read !!

[GODSK]

Saudi Arabian are to operate a B747-368 into LHR on Sat 30th Jul. The flight is an extra flight due to the number of Saudi's wanting to return home for Ramadan. The outbound flight number is SV3116 departing LHR @ 1700.

[Trinity 09L]

lgwpave
Many thnaks for the reply. I am not the nimby. I did query many years ago with HAL that no space was available at 09L hold, but they went ahead anyway. One assumes the fuel burn from T4 is not in the equation. My simple idea would be to run light weight departures = shorter & less noise footprint, and keep heavies on 09R with a mix of landings. The nimbies in the new scheme under 09R will get more arrivals - hence the nimby division between 09L all day arrivals and 09R fewer :)

[WHBM]

Now Heathrow decided it can't handle the baggage at the 2012 Olympics

Heathrow faces huge freight bill for athletes' luggage | Olympics (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-olympics/article-23976021-heathrow-faces-huge-freight-bill-for-athletes-luggage.do)

If the typical athlete does fly with 5 bags compared to a normal 1.5 average, then the excess bag fees paid to the airlines are going to be huge. For some the baggage fees may be more than the pax fare. Is there however going to be no extra provision to actually handle these bags ? Will they just pocket the money and not do anything for it ?

[european130]

I would have thought that most teams will come in on a chartered flights, l went to ATL for the olympics in 86 to help out at the airport with ops, and the UK, Canada, NZ, Australia and South Africa Teams, all came in on their national airlines chartered 74's etc.. lots of baggage l agree. Maybe, if they are charters they will go into STN and solve the Heathrow problem ? Can understand small countries will send them on scheduled, but the number of attendees should not cause that much of a problem.

[Seljuk22]

AA increase MIA-LHR from 10 weekly to 17 weekly.

Asiana increase ICN-LHR from 4 weekly to daily.

BA will increase Riyadh to daily, GIG from 3 weekly to 6 weekly and transfer MRU (3 weekly) from LGW to LHR.

Air China plans to introduce the B77W on PEK-LHR from 1st January.

[vectisman]

Seljuk22
I think you will find that MRU is being transferred from LHR to LGW this winter and not the otherway around.

V.

[CARNMANORLAD]

I'm looking to go to Dubai in June but am debating whether to fly with Qatar Airways (via Doha) or Oman Air (via Muscat) has anyone had experiences with either?

[jabird]

I'm looking to go to Dubai in June but am debating whether to fly with Qatar Airways (via Doha) or Oman Air (via Muscat) has anyone had experiences with either?

Where is your start point, LHR or LDY?

From LHR, you have the choice of BA, VS, BI, BG and of course EK, who will all take you there direct. Alternatively, you can fly to AUH with EY. From LDY, use EY from DUB to AUH.

If your trip is for leisure, I would suggest allocating time to explore AUH anyway - the two cities are sufficiently close to combine without needing to fly between them. But this is about LHR, so I'll leave the AUH promotion to the Abu Dhabi tourist board!

[PAXboy]

I can't see that this has been linked before, appears to be today.
Heathrow unveils driverless transport of the future - Yahoo! (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/heathrow-unveils-driverless-transport-of-the-future.html)

It's the car park pods thingy.

[ChalfontFlyer]

Interesting report that has been commissioned by Ferrovial published earlier today highlights that Heathrow is losing the battle for new routes to lucrative merging markets. In particular to far east cities including Manila, Guangzhou and Jakarta to other european hub airports like CDG & FRA.

The report said that international hub airports like Heathrow were “crucial” to promoting a country’s economic growth.
It claimed that UK businesses did 20 times as much trade with countries where there was a direct connection than with countries where there was not.


Item here from Heathrow website:



BAA Heathrow: UK risks being cut off from growth by poor trade links, says new study (http://www.heathrowairport.com/portal/page/Heathrow%5EGeneral%5EOur%20business%20and%20community%5EMedi a%20centre%5EPress%20releases%5EResults/40ac4e72f4b82310VgnVCM10000036821c0a____/a22889d8759a0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____/)

[Romeo Kilo]

I've seen a job advertised with a "prestigious airline" opening a new lounge in T4. I get the impression it shall be their own lounge, as opposed to their Alliance/handler.

Can anyone tell me who this is?

[PAXboy]

Whilst the report is produced by Ferrovialand cannot be impartial, it I don't don't that the conclusion is correct.

Fortunately, everyone can stop worrying if LHR is going to lose out since the battle is already lost. The time to allow the third runway was 20 years ago. The big europe hubs, the middle eastern hubs and carriers, have all take the lead. It may only just be showing up in the figures but the war is over.

A pity, because it could have been different.

[Groundloop]

In particular to far east cities including Manila, Guangzhou and Jakarta to other european hub airports like CDG & FRA.

Jakarta? Jakarta was dropped from LHR schedules because it didn't make enough money.

Manila used to be served from LGW. Same reason.

[bcn_boy]

This report is biased and certianly not based on fact. Heathrow used to have Manilla, Jakarta, Seoul and even KL all flown by BA. The fact that our incumbent airline pulled these routes is the problem and used the slots for other more profitable city pairs. LGW has plenty of capacity and can afford to take on these extra connections keeping London and the UK's economy competitive. This is just BAA bias. Get a 2nd runway at Gatwick and you will see London and the UK continue to flourish, we dont need to be tied to BAA and LHR for that to happen.

[MARK9263]

How does a second runway at Gatwick benefit the rest of the UK ??
Just more London-centric bias..

[FlyingEagle21]

I've seen a job advertised with a "prestigious airline" opening a new lounge in T4. I get the impression it shall be their own lounge, as opposed to their Alliance/handler.

Could Quite possibly be Delta Airlines, they will have 28 flights a day out of T4 by next summer.

[600343]

Qatar Airways lounge...... will be opening next summer which is 2012...

[bcn_boy]

I understand your arguement, however it can equally be applied to the LHR centric report that BAA have just published which I was challenging initially.
I would go further and a second runway at BHX, it is on the rail\road and possibly high speed rail network and a prime candidate for development.

[canberra97]

Jakarta was served by BA from LHR but was dropped in the mid 90s.

Manila was served by BA from LHR but was also dropped in the mid 90s.

Jakarta was served by Garuda Indonesian from LGW but was dropped in 2003.

Manila was served by Philipine Airlines origionally from LGW but was moved to LHR in 1995, this was also dropped in 1998.

These routes may have been losing money at the time but it is a completely differrent situation now as these two routes are proving popular with the likes of AF, EK, KL, LH, etc and are considered as merging markets so how can you relate to them being loss making routes today!

Times change!

I would not be surprised if we hear from Garuda in the next 6 months regarding a return to the Jakarta to London route once they recieve all of there new Boeing 777Ws thus releasing some of their A333s for a return to a UK service most probably flying into LGW.

Also Philipine Airlines have stated they would like to return to Europe once they have spare capacity with the arrival on their own Boeing 777ws. I also envisage them going into LGW.

It will be BA that will be losing out and of course LHR and a return to Seoul would be very difficult seeing there is already two well established carriers on the LHR to Seoul route with the likes of Korean Air and Asiana.

With Malaysian joining OneWorld and already serving LHR twice daily from Kuala Lumper I do not see any quick return for BA to KL.

BA should have been quicker of the mark and announced services two some of these destinations long ago and made more use of LGW which in my view especially with the North Terminal is an excellent airport for BA to expand from even though I live closer to LHR I do have a soft spot for LGW.

[pabely]

bcn_boy

Birmingham's own master plan up to 2030 shows no second runway. It would involve moving the A45 road again and flatting current facilities in Elmdon. You would start to get very close to existing housing as well.

The only new runway might be Gatwick, elsewhere is very doubtful in UK.

[bvcu]

canberra
dont think Philipine airlines are allowed into Europe/usa due safety category at present. Think another issue with LHR/LGW is handling facilities, how often are we stuck with widebodies i.e 773 on stands with one airbridge ?

[chinapattern]

Looking at Terminal 5 on GoogleEarth it strikes me how 'messy' the aircraft stand layout looks. Considering the amount of wide-bodies BA has it's surprising that are just a handful of stands with double airbridges attached. Would love to know what the thinking behind that was. At least there attaching 3 bridges for the A380 stands.

[ib26uk]

Cant find the BA or Glasgow threads so will post in here

Does anybody know when specifically BA will be using 767s on the LHR/GLA route?

Wouldnt mind flying up and back on the 767 !!

[davidjohnson6]

ib26uk - if you try to make a booking on BA's website, you can click on the flight number of individual flights - it'll show you what type of aircraft is planned for use

[NorthernCounties]

Just wondering, what are the smallest aircrafts BA have based at Heathrow,

Cheers

[GrahamK]

NorthernCounties

A319

[NorthernCounties]

Thanks GrahamK!

[robtheblade]

I used to fly with BA, LHR- CGK via KUL.The first leg was always quiet full whereas KUL-CGK would sometimes have more crew than pax. There does seem to be very low demand even now for a London – Jakarta service.

A way round it would be to go via the Middle East. Everytime I fly Emirates the DXB-CGK flight is rammed with migrant Indonesian workers returning home.

The Garuda flight was LGW-BKK-DPS and was often very full, but sometimes quiet empty. The nail in the coffin was the Bali bombing which for a couple of years reduced Bali to a ghost island. The last time I flew with them two of us had the upper deck to ourselves both out and back.

Edit to add, the upper deck was P/E. £125 extra each way, sometimes with, it seemed, unlimited champagne.

[Wycombe]

....when I flew to Bali with Garuda from LGW in 1995, the routing was LGW-AUH-BKK-CGK(aircraft change)-DPS, quite a marathon.

[Seljuk22]

Blue1 HEL-LHR and Arik Air ABV-LHR will be suspended eff 30 Oct.

BA will increase LHR-JNB from 14 weekly to 17 weekly from 26th March.

[LD12986]

Any word on who is picking up the slots? Assume Blue1's slots will go to SAS.

[Seljuk22]

BA will add additional frequencies as follows:

LHR-GLA from 52 times a week to 60 times weekly from 30th October and further increase to 67 times weekly from 9th January.
B763 will be used on BA1472 (first flight of the day) every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday.

From 25th March:
LHR-JFK increases to 8 times daily (B744 operates on all flights)
LHR-MIA increases to 3 times daily (2 times B744 and the new flight with B772)

[bcn_boy]

Recent reports by BAA suggest that London is losing out because there is not enough capacity at LHR for slots to serve emerging markets and is impacting on our future economic growth. Now BA has increased flights to GLA, JFK and MIA. There are already numerous flights to all these destinationss, could these extra slots not have been used to various Chinese cities, Jakarta, KL, Seoul, Manila etc.? This is where the growth is and this would nulify the need for these complaints that we just do not have the connections.

[Groundloop]

It's obvious that BA and BAA do not agree on what makes a profitable market!

[WHBM]

If BA want to increase throughput at Heathrow they could consider how on European routes they replaced a whole lot of the 757s with 737-400s, and in turn replaced these with a large A319 fleet, going down in size each time. Total BA European departures are about the same number as they were in 757 times, but they have downsized aircraft twice since then.

BMI even more so. Routes I remember with solid A321s now have 50-seat Embraers !

Regarding the Asian cities, there are actually few practical contenders. Malaysian are not in OneWorld yet so offer no onward connectivity to BA from KL. Seoul is a basketcase for just about everybody from Europe and North America - Korean and Asiana between them just flood every destination with capacity and low fares, no profit potential there, especially as 90% of the traffic from Europe originates from the Korean end, who would never dream of using a non-national carrier. Jakarta and Manila are low-fare markets, much activity but not a lot of F/C/PE potential there.

[Skipness One Echo]

In the case of GLA, the loss of 5 BMI Airbuses a day made prices on BA go through the roof on some days so more capacity is welcomed. At the minute, BA's current services to China are not jam packed so not sure why flying more fresh air around would help. Indeed even Air China only offer a single A330-200 on LHR-PEK, down from a B744M a few years back. The volume on BA Euro services matters little if the yield is at BMI levels, if the A319 works and allows frequency to be maintained, leave it be.

[bcn_boy]

Agree with all of you. Can BAA now explain why then. they were using the ecnonomic arguement of these cities in the Far East to scaremonger the government and push for expansion if the demand is just not there? Besides, Gatwick can easily fill this gap if BA are not concerned about connecting traffic.

[Skipness One Echo]

Noticed tonight that Aegean are operating a LHR-LCA service from T4 whereas the rest of the operation is with STAR in T1. Anyone know why they're splitting the operation?

[jdcg]

LCA flight moves to T1 end of the month

[British Grenadier]

Been looking at the construction of said Terminal , anyone have any info on how this is going to work ?? as present construction is appears to be being boarded up at one end ( nearest present T1 ) so is the plan to open the presently under construction end first ( ready for Olympics ?) or is this going to be another BAA LHR cock up , anyone in the know ??

[pabely]

BAA Heathrow: Rebuilding Heathrow Airport (http://www.heathrowairport.com/portal/page/Heathrow%5EGeneral%5EOur+business+and+community%5ERebuilding +Heathrow/a9ccd1a148e05210VgnVCM10000036821c0a____/448c6a4c7f1b0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____/)

[Skipness One Echo]

The Northern half of T2 satellite opened last year, gates 31-33 and 47-49, the Southern half is going up along with the new terminal.

[WHBM]

Have others noticed the Heathrow Terminal 5 Transit from the main terminal to the B and (now) C piers has become increasingly disorganised since pier C opened.

Still just the two trains running backwards and forwards on their own tracks, but compared to the last few years of the B pier only, when it worked fine, the extension to the C pier seems to have led to much greater and notably more erratic service intervals than before, with the two trains tending to get close to each other, then a very long interval before the first one manages to come round again.

BAA now need to deploy attendants at the B station to "manage" inbound passengers there, as one of the things also happening is that after a long interval one train then fills up at C, and people then cannot get into it at B. Unfortunately said attendants, in best BAA fashion, do not seem to have a clue about how to handle the crowds, and waste even more of travellers time by sending them to the inappropriate side.

[Danny_R]

For those that didn't see it, the BBC Politics Show had a report on Heathrow's 3rd runway today, can be seen on BBC iplayer. SMB and BAA were arguing that the UK economy will lose out on £1.4bn per year without expansion, Transport Minister Theresa Villiers said they wanted airports to get better rather than bigger and the program pointed out that the Transport Secretary is pretty much anti-aviation having promised to oppose Heathrow expansion.

Unfortunately the panel on the show seemed clueless with the reporter on it saying fuel is 'predicted' to reach $500 per barrell by 2015, so we didn't need to expand as the industry would soon be dead, apparently we will have alternative modes of transport instead, she must be expecting the transporter from Star Trek to be invented soon! The other panelist reckoned BA needed to give up on attracting transfer passengers and then all would be rosy.

It will be interesting to see what effect SMB, now Lord Glendonbrook has on the Tory leaders given he is one of the parties largest donors.

[WHBM]

News from the Prime Minister's office :

BBC News - David Cameron vows to boost infrastructure projects (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15517180)

"David Cameron has promised an 'all-out mission' to kick-start infrastructure projects and revive the economy."

Ah, that's interesting. Somehow seems to be completely the opposite of what they intend for Heathrow's infrastructure.

"But he urged people to be optimistic, pointing to growing trade with India and China".

More interest. Remind me, Prime Minister, what is the ONLY airport in the UK that airlines find it commercially worthwhile to operate to India and China from ? Would it be Heathrow by any chance ? The airport with no more slots at all available for such flights ?

"Mr Cameron spelled out a three-point plan based on confronting Britain's debts, improving competitiveness and building global trade."

Right then. So we are going to build global trade by appointing a Transport Minister who HATES, publically, the only significant airport for global business travel from Britain :rolleyes:

[crewmeal]

More hot air from our weak leader. Nothing will be done to improve LHR. We all know the airport is at full capacity. The only thing that can be done is the improvement in terminal facilities such as terminal 2.

The third runway has been talked about for ever and transport ministers have changed. Some for some against. Now we have someone against it so nothing will happen.

I do wish politicians would keep their mouths shut!

[Spitfire boy]

Any word or rumours on if and how IB will be accommodated in T5 (non CUTE terminal) by BA?

[Danny_R]

A Labour U Turn...

Labour Rule Out 3rd Runwayl (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056021/Heathrow-runday-built-airport-expansion-ruled-out.html)

'Plans for a third runway at Heathrow have finally been scrapped after Labour joined the Coalition in ruling out an expansion at the airport.

The controversial plans, which attracted widespread criticism from environmentalists, are now 'off the agenda', despite a third runway being backed by the previous Labour government.

The Shadow Transport Secretary, Maria Eagle, explained to The Guardian that the reason for Labour's U-turn on the proposed runway was due to the local environmental impact.

She said: 'The answer for the south-east is not going to be to fall back on the third runway at Heathrow... it is off the agenda.'

[davidjohnson6]

Comments earlier have made me think a little more. Let us suppose that the demand for flying to/from LHR increases over the next 5 or 10 years. Suppose also that a new runway is not built, and that there is little or no other significant runway capacity increase.

The new T2 / East is being built, and will be largely operational by about 2014 depending on what you count as operational.

Thus, in a few years time, we expect terminal capacity to significantly increase, but runway capacity to remain largely unchanged. Thus no airline can gain a competitive advantage by suddenly adding *lots* more rotations on a route without paying a heavy price for the extra slots.

A good chunk of flying at LHR is to the rest of Europe, some of it in planes of an A319 size - I'm ignoring what BMI are doing to keep slots warm as this will not last much longer.

How feasible is it for the main European airlines over a 5 year timeframe to increase the size of planes flying into LHR - maybe an A319 becomes an A320 while an A320 becomes an A321, but still remain commercially viable ? I note also BA's new use of a daily 767 to Glasgow. One immediate issue, is whether sufficient orders have been placed with Airbus and Boeing in a suitable timeframe given annual aircraft production capacity

Is this just tinkering around the edges, or is this a realistic way to squeeze a lot more passengers through Heathrow without increasing the number of flights (even if noise increases) ?

[Skipness One Echo]

The business model needs frequency and the aircraft are only being filled up to A319 size on a number of routes. Hence you can increase size, decrease frequency and watch your connectivity options decrease as you need to kick your heels between flights and also lose your frequent fliers to whom time is money.

BA moved anything smaller than a B757 out of LHR when Robert Ayling took charge, let's just say they went onto order lots of A319s for LHR a few years later! The politicians are just angling for votes telling people what they want to hear. Without being offensive, the current crop lack business experience and working in the real world, hence their ability to make key strategic decisions in good time is screwed as there are not supposed to be any losers. I suspect LHR will get Runway 3 but it will be late, there will injuncitons and battles all the way to the Supremem Court and someone will probably die under a bulldozer wearing a Guy Fawkes mask. I know this sounds very arrogant of me but realistically and affordably, the only way to keep the country connected and competitive is LHR and runway 3.

All talk of shiny new floating airports on the side of London furthest from the M4 business community, with no noise pollution is pretence. Politicians only see in terms of the electoral cycle of four to five years, which is why so many short term decisions have got us here today. PFI springs to mind. "Schools and Hospitals For All" (off balance sheet) that we'll pay many times over the market rate for but it got the votes. Windfarms, like Boris Island would be, are a disaster for birds, thousands cut to pieces in the name of "Ecomentalism" on a business model whose numbers and subsidy make Network Rail like Ockham's Razor.

[Facelookbovvered]

Have to agree with you on this one LHR is the only show in town, Boris Island has merit but it's the wrong side of London.
The timetable for R3 is more difficult, the biggest risk would come if Justine Greening decides tonallow the sale of set aside land bought to protect the runway option, that would probably game over!

I can't see this coalition government agreeing to R3 and I understand their planned aviation White paper is now shuffled off to 2013, Labour said doing nothing wasn't an option back in 97, but did nothing!

The whole green thing, worthwhile or not is causing huge damage to the people it's meant to protect, the price of food is being driven up by crops being grown to provide fuel, this forces up meat prices, household energy bills are funding all these wind farms and as pilots we get to see more of them than most from our eye in the sky, I can't be scientific about it but I would estimate they are not turning at least 1 in 7 days and at any one time 1 in 10 are not working even when it's windy, sooner but I expect later someone will say enough. HS2 is a joke

[WHBM]

What Justine Greening thinks are the three greatest problems in life for her well-heeled constituents in Putney :

".... Whether its Heathrow, crime, or the District Line, I’ll be there working with residents to make sure our views are listened to and acted upon...."

The Conservative Party | People | Members of Parliament | Justine Greening MP (http://www.conservatives.com/People/Members_of_Parliament/Greening_Justine.aspx)

With ministers like that, who needs enemies ?

[davidjohnson6]

Skipness - I agree that frequency is necessary. However, if there are no new slots available in large numbers, then no airline gets to increase frequency beyond what exists at the moment. Therefore, if IAG, Air France - KLM, Lufthansa, SAS, and all their subsidiaries are unable to gain more slots, they all end up compelled to increase the size of the aircraft in use, or start additional flights from other airports in the south east (e.g. LH to Gatwick)

True, this does not permit the opening of routes to new destinations or increase frequencies, but how much of an impact does this have in squeezing more passengers through 2 runways ?

[Skipness One Echo]

they all end up compelled to increase the size of the aircraft in use, or start additional flights from other airports in the south east (e.g. LH to Gatwick)

True, however the LGW-FRA is an easyJet spoiler, as EZY were looking closely at the route and LH charged in first in a pre-emptive strike. LHR-FRA remains an A320 / A321 route. I don't see LH or SK returning to STN any time soon and SK have just pulled BGO-LGW. I suspect if EZY don't move into FRA then the route will be the next AA STN-JFK...... Also think of Ryanair's response when EZY moved into Ireland, they didn't capacity dump and up frequency for the benefit of the market.

LHR, LGW and STN/LTN are all VERY different beasts, much more so than comparable airports like ORY/CDG or JFK/EWR, however try getting that across and people just can't understand why expanding somewhere else won't work.

[Seljuk22]

Malaysia Airlines plans to introduce the A380 on MH002/003 from 2nd July 2012 with 3 weekly flights (from LHR: Tuesday, Friday, Sunday). From 15th August the A380 will be daily on this route.

[Seljuk22]

BA to launch daily flights to BLQ from 29th April and additional flights to AMS.

Virgin to launch 4 weekly flights to Vancouver from 24th May and will offer additional 3 weekly flights to SFO from 26th March.

[Seljuk22]

Emirates to Add Third A380 Service to London Heathrow
Emirates to Add Third A380 Service to London Heathrow | Emirates | About Emirates | News (http://www.emirates.com/ae/english/about/news/news_detail.aspx?article=740617&offset=0)

[Skipness One Echo]

I read in another place that Singapore were upgrading the afternoon B777-300ER rotation, SQ308 / 321, up to the A380. I was pleasantly surprised to see it's still a good looking Boeing at the moment and into the summer. What happened?

[racedo]

How is the A319 service with SNN stopover doing ?

[Aero Mad]

racedo, unless I'm being stupid do you mean the British Airways service from LCY - JFK using two A318s?

[WHBM]

Heathrow now looking for "volunteers" for 2012.

Team Heathrow volunteers | Team heathrow volunteers (http://www.teamheathrow.com/)

what a great idea - every position that's volunteered for is one that doesn't have to be paid for. What with half the management offices being run by "interns" as well, that's yet more contribution to Ferrovial's bottom line.

[ara01jbb]

what a great idea - every position that's volunteered for is one that doesn't have to be paid for. What with half the management offices being run by "interns" as well, that's yet more contribution to Ferrovial's bottom line.


Obviously can't wait for the coalition to force the unemployed to work for them for free... (clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/nov/16/young-jobseekers-work-pay-unemployment))

[Seljuk22]

Qatar Airways to introduce a fifth daily flight DOH-LHR from March 25 next year.
Press Release | Qatar Airways (http://www.qatarairways.com/global/en/press-release.page?pr_id=pressrelease_pressrelease_20111207)

[FR-]

Just out of interest where does the extra slot come from?

fr-

[PAXboy]

Just a note to say that dear old T5 continues to delight ...

Car park to deliver friends going LH. One level showed 370+ empty slots. But the major part of it was closed for cleaning. That's nice that they are going to clean the surface but could they not have switched off, or capped, the space sensors? One then had to hunt much more carefully for a spot.

Anyway, on the way back to the car, we saw the new 'Find Your Car' machine and we thought that we would try, even though we knew exactly where we were. the machine was not working.

Don't stop BAA plc, you've got a winning formula ...

[Seljuk22]

Maybe these are bmi slots.

Tarom will also increase their flights to double daily next summer
TAROM Increasing Brussels & London Heathrow Service in S12 | Airline Route (http://airlineroute.net/2011/11/27/ro-brulhr-s12/)

[EKA380LHR]

This time next year all 5 EK flight's will be A380!!!! Will miss my 773 though, a joy to turnaround. Just hope BAA sort out some more A380 gates for us in T3 what with TG getting theirs and MH moving back to T3 2013 things are going to be getting a little tight space wise!

[bread&water]

Can anyone give me data or a source for LHR pax numbers by airline ? Thanks B&W

[davidjohnson6]

bread - the CAA website has passenger numbers for each route each month. Have a look under the statistics section of their site

[Seljuk22]

AC reduces YUL from 2 to 1 daily next summer but will add a fifth daily to YYZ from June to the end of September.

[jdcg]

Have read that Air Seychelles are pulling out. Who got their (not very many) slots? Is it likely that BA will take up the route, although probably from LGW?

[BCALBOY]

Male,Maldives has only ever operated from LGW.

Mauritius has moved to LGW this Winter.

[Falcon666]

NZ Herald is reporting that Air NZ is refusing to rule out withdrawing its daily flagship service to London following a review of its loss making flights.
Airport departure tax is being cited as just one of the reasons.
The airline lost $1m a week on long haul operations in the second half of the financial year.