HEATHROW

[HZ123]

As someone who has been in the employ for 32 years and still is, I am totally confused. Therefore it must be the same for everyone else which is a bit alarming?

[Skipness One Echo]

So it's cheaper and simpler to use the Heathrow Connect with it's 37 ( count them ) moronic robotic auto warnings ("Please help as and be ready to have your ticket inspected" at EVERY F****** STATION ) from T4 than try and connect to the (no longer ) direct Heathrow Express. Actually the Connect is a fine service at an OK price just the patronising announcements wind me up all the way out to the airport.......

My prediction for announcement 38 by the way is :
"please remember to wipe your bum clean if you use our on board toilets"
If only I was kidding !

[Baltasound]

Re: Heathrow and ground connections. A Transport and Works Order has been submitted for Airtrack (the southern connection to the Feltham/ Staines Loop) - there is one major conumdrum in that the ruling linespeed through that part of Sarf Lunnun is not particularly high and that capacity at Waterloo (although there are 4 new shiny platforms with the departure of Eurostar) is tight as a badgers bottom.

The best option would be a westerly connection off Airtrack (I haven't seen the order - it could be planned) SO a connection could then be made at Staines via the SR to Reading and the South. The fly in the ointment is of course that Swatchtrains franchise would have to be relet to take account of this.

To the north and HEX/ Connect. Nice as it is a westerly connection onto the GWML and wires up as far as Brizzle and Brum New Street. Minimum. Some on here who have the contacts should start lobbying for that now as part of a general campaign by the railway industry. Heathhell will benefit by having better public transport, which can't harm; can it?

[HZ123]

27 march - all airbus 767 and T1 1/3 longhaul routes move to T5

BEG moves from T4 to T1
WAW moves from T1 to LGW



30 march

IAH/DFW move from LGW to T4
ALG moves from LGW to T5
DTW terminates


30 April

All T4 flights move to T5 (except ISA including BKK SIN and SYD)


21 June

All T1 flights move to T3
BCN BEG HEL LIS MAD NCE

14 Oct

Remaining T4 flights (Jsa) move to T3

Is that any clearer?

[Swedish Steve]

Yes but last I saw the June move is now Oct, and the Oct move is now Jan 2009.
Are you sure about BEG?

[SWBKCB]

What's the latest situation re the BA B.777? Has it been moved yet, and if so does this mean the airport is back to normal or is there further work to be done?

[Skipness One Echo]

27L is being used for departures but not full length. Heavies requiring full length are taking delays and waiting at the 27R hold for gaps in the inbounds. When I left at 2pm, the damaged B777 was on wheels thahad beem placed under the fuselage for a slow tow away from the scene. More on www.bbc.co.uk

[Ian Brooks]

Would think runway 27L threshold will be closed for a while yet whilst checking work is done/repairs and also the graded undershoot repaired and skid marks removed and any lighting replaced

Makes you think doesn`t it when you look at the undershoot area as there are a lot of airfields no where near as good as that

Ian

[WHBM]

Back into Heathrow last night SLF, hour's delay departing due, presumably, to flow control, 4 times round Lambourne, finally landed, engines shut down, then about 40 minutes stopped on the ground before on stand.

The 777 responsible ? Well the last bit seemingly not. The skipper said that where there were normally two people manning a key position in ground movements, there was only one. Now is that correct ? Seems so unlikely that during such a critical time for the airport they had gone short-staffed.

[Geffen]

Definitely bandboxed air yesterday.

[akerosid]

The eco-mob is going to love this ...

http://www.propertyweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=36&storycode=3104342

The BAA is looking ahead and apparently planning a fourth runway and seventh terminal. Well, you can't accuse them of lack of vision!

[MUFC_fan]

The scary thought is that they could would probably fill all the slots!:eek:

There is going to be a point when all the available slots made available by the restructuring at LHR are filled and further expansion will be needed, it is just when...

[Gonzo]

WHBM......Heathrow Tower is short of staff. It has been for the eight years I've been there. It's very bad at the moment, as there was a pause in training while we prepared for the new tower move and then again after we moved as we got used to the equipment.

As things get busier and more complex, with fewer staff, we all end up working harder, value our time off more, and so less likely to agree to come in for overtime.

It's not going to get better for a few months yet.

[Farjer]

Sounds like we are back to runway alternation (i.e. 27L is back in use for landing). Good job, cleanup crew!

Of course if you want to see it on http://lhr.webtrak-lochard.com/template/index.html you'll have to wait 2 whole days, because of those darn terrsts who hate our freedom.

Now where is the webtrak data for the 17th? It will be fascinating.

[Gonzo]

I've just read a story on the BoingBoing blog that there are no external power points available at the departure gates in T5.

That's a good feature for business travellers, isn't it.:ugh:

[747-436]

Now where is the webtrak data for the 17th? It will be fascinating.

Yes seems there is none there for that day, would be good to watch as all the planes coming in to LHR get scattered elsewhere!

[Farjer]

Yes seems there is none there for that day, would be good to watch as all the planes coming in to LHR get scattered elsewhere!

Well I think we deserve to know. Kick up a fuss ppruners!

In the past I've noticed a few other holes in the data and have even come up with a conspiracy to explain it all (see another post).

[Hartington]

Can people please post their impressions of what Terminal 5 will be like. If you have been on one of the test/trial days please refrain from posting. I want to try and get an impression of how BA and the BAA have influenced our expectations not what the reality is.

My own view is that they are promising something special and new. To say I'm expecting Nirvana is an exaggeration but their pronoucements so far have been very positive and raised expectations.

[hamsco]

I think it will be spacious, pleasure to use, impressive, somewhere I would choose to fly from.....

[PAXboy]

I expect that it will be squeaky clean and most of it will work very well. However, there will always be something that annoys every Nth pax.

After two years, it will begin to look a bit shoddy and they will be cramming in extra shops.

After five years, it will be the same as T4 or STN. Yes, I know that I'm too cynical but using LHR for the past 42 years will have that effect on a person ...

I am sure that they are planning more 'wonderful' things that will make their life easier and look great on paper and at the PR launch BUT the problems of getting pax to learn new routines - just to make the carrier's life easier (under the pretence that it will make out lives easier)??

If the rumour about no external power points at the gates is true - then they have missed a beat. If they did not install them, it will have saved some cash and cost them in other ways.

Some years ago, I was able to recharge at Grand Central station by sitting on the ground at an outlet normally used by the cleaners. No one stopped me and I was very pleased to be at the station and using their facilities and vending machines.

[Hartington]

Thank you for the (two) replies. The reason I asked the question is that I've been on one of the trial days at T5. Prior to going I'd been reading comments from BA and the BAA about new processes and a better experience so I was really hopeful.

Now, I have to admit that (a) the building is not yet complete and (b) I'm an old cynic. That said, I was disappointed. Yes, it's a nice new building and in many places it's light (in daylight!) and airy. But it's difficult to tell whether that's because of the lack of passengers - I can't help feeling that in full flow it's not going to be a big bit better than any of the other terminals. The processes haven't really changed - more self service (which for me isn't a substitute for service) and "fast bag drop" (is it really "fast"?), The search areas seem to be big enough to cope *provided* they man them. There's the stupidity of having to go through the biometric processing if you're on a domestic flight or connection which means a two stage process at the gate.

One of the lounges (Silver/Club?) was open yesterday and seemed quite nice (but it's up two escalators).

Plenty of shopping and eating options (I noticed a Wagamams which I have a liking for). What else would you expect?

The flight we "boarded" was long haul and they were experimienting with fast track signage - total failure, everyone went through the fast track! To give them their due it was experimental and I gathered that the signs used were noweher near the final design.

Generally signage is standard BAA. The flight connections signs are purple which I've not seen before. One thing I felt was a little silly was that the flight connections centre is in the A terminal. If you arrive at the B terminal and your connecting flight is also from B I didn't feel it was clear that you could stay in B if you choose to.

The baggage hall is vast but I found it quite difficult to find the exit. There is no sign projecting from the wall so if you miss the small overhead as you get off the escalator it's not easy to see where to go.

I said I am a cynic. I overheard a researcher questioning a couple of ladies about their experience. They were waxing lyrical and saying things like "there's nobody else so it's so easy and spacious". If that's reflected into their answers I can't help feeling the wrong impression will be given to BAA.

[apaddyinuk]

Hartington...

Thanks for the interesting comments. I am CC for BA but did my T5 Tour way back in September when it still seemed like a building site so it will probably look totally different to me the day it opens (I am lucky enough to be working the Inaugural Arrival from HKG on the 27th...woohoo).

I just want to query your comments about Flight Connections. It is my understanding that passengers will be segregated on arrival and will have to proceed from T5B to T5A before arriving at Flight Connections so they will be unable to stay in T5B regardless as there will be no access to the departures area...am I right??? I was unable to go to T5B as it was still being fitted out when I was on my tour.

It is also my understanding that as per usual (FROM SOME VERY DAFT REASON) that BAA will not allocate the gates on the info screens until the typical 90 minutes or so before a flight departure so although chances are if you are on a LH flight which more than likely will be departing from T5B it will not be confirmed until shortly beforehand meaning you will be expected to remain in the main T5A holding area first!!!

Thanks

[Hermano Lobo]

I have just been part of the trials of the new Terminal 5 at Heathrow. I played the would-be passenger with about 300 others.

It was an exercise conducted in an amateurish manner !

I am sure you have heard of Feng Shui ? Well this building breaks all the rules. It is hideous, gross in more ways than one.

"Souless!" said a pretend passenger behind me.

I thought that Suvanabhumi was too much grey concrete and steel but at least it has some Thai style. Large classic statues etc. When the rain came through the roof a pretty Thai lady ran up to me with an umbrella. The Thais have tried to stamp some images of Thailand on the building.

But Terminal 5 = Yuck !

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/home/blog_data/5/5/images/hirst-pharmacy.jpg

You can have any colour as long as its GREY - to paraphrase Henry Ford. Talk about a Damian Hirst pharmacy artwork in the Tate Modern Gallery. Well at least that had some humour.

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/home/blog_data/5/5/images/Hirst2.jpg

This monstrosity is nothing but bad vibes off of straight edges, all in an untasteful light green glass, white and grey steel gurders, and just about grey everything else.

There are a few maze-like traps as well. Coming down one escalator it is quite easy to turn into the equivalent of a broom cupboard as the next direction is not apparent. There was almost a Rugby scrum at the top of one escalator as a bottle-neck at the beginning of the next one caused a pile-up at the top of the previous. All in all a very illogical design.

Let me outa here ! AAAAaaaaaggghhh !

The points that came out of the visit:-

1) Not a simple and user friendly design although they had plenty of space to play with.

2) A train system is needed between the two Terminals in the '5' area.

3) Geoff Want(In effect Willie Walsh's No.2) the ex-British Airways Director of Operations did the video on the T5 presentation. None of the British Airways staff I spoke to hade heard of him ! Can you imagine an England supporter not knowing who is Sven Goran Eriksson ?

4) Purposely my friend and I pretended that we did not hear the last calls for the flight. This was not picked up. When asked who we were I answered,"No speaker da Inglish!" They ran away and found a German speaker who was convinced I came from Bavaria.

5) The general design has no logic, section 'A'does not seem to follow section 'B'. Pus there were a few blind allys.

6) The whole operation was conducted in an amateurish fashion. There was no realism, no problem passengers and no difficulties to solve. If the volunteers did not follow a preset set of instructions the staff were clueless.

7) The automatic check-in kiosks asked if I hade packed my baggage and if anybody had given me something to take on board. What is the point ?

8) The fingerprint and face recognition system worked OK but made one feel like a in house convict. It did not like me scewing up my face like Harpo Marx.

9) The colours and interior design is cold and souless. With lots of grey and pale green windows. I could not get out of the building fast enough.

10) Like all modern airports it will be a shopping mall with runways.

11) The signs were poorly located and did not indicate direction. Many passengers will be standing around scratching their heads.

12) The flight arrival boards are too small and too low, other passengers easily obscure the boards. The writing is far too small.

13) Going through immigration there are massive words saying = UK Border . What does that supposed to mean ? A new breed of dog ? All in all the place is a dog's dinner !

The new Terminal 5 is due to open on March 27th 2008. There were still many contractors(Russians and Poles in hard hats and yellow dayglo vests) trying to finish the job. It will open on 27th March but there will still be people working on it.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/10_01/heathMS0610_468x514.jpg

[nesboy 1976]

Not a big fan then??

[Hermano Lobo]

Correct ! I didn't see a GE90 anywhere.

[Mr Flaps]

T5 is nothing great. BA and BAA have made into something big and amazing. Its not!!!
It's Stansted Airport in a terminal and an oversized shopping mall. Its an airport not Oxford Street. BAA only say get to the airport early so you can get lost in thier shopping malls with poor signs so you cant find your gate.
T5 will work but at peak hmmm. We wait and see.
One thing there are no clocks in the main check-in concourse. opps! What time is it please?
Plus fast bag drop. I think BA need to change that to slow bag drop.
LHR is dead. They should have built a new London Airport out in the Thames in the 1970's. The M25 is gridlocked as is the M4. All stops on the underground to T5 from central London no thanks and the LHR express rip off comes to mind.
Plus T6 and a new runway. BAA are barking mad. Lets see T5 struggle first. I could do with a good laugh.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Strange. From every T5 "test dummy" I've spoken to, I've only heard great things.

Time will tell.

[Andy_S]

I wouldn't say Heathrow is "dead". It will never be dead, but it will become increasingly unsatisfactory and unpleasant as more flights, more people and more terminals are shoehorned into the same area.

I'll probably get shot down in flames for even mentioning it, but I don't understand why the possibility of moving lock stock and barrel to Stansted has never been seriously considered? I know you'd need to build at least two new runways and a couple of huge terminals, plus all the infrastructure, but at least it could be purpose built for the most part.

[frostbite]

That looks like a very public lavatory in picture #2!

What is it?

[egnxema]

Well we'll see.

Gotta say Hermano, that your list gives the impression that you were looking for every thing you do not like. You don't like Steel and Glass. ok.

Screwing up your face like Harpo Marx probably made you feel more like a convict than looking at a camera.

Automatic checkin kiosks are not new - they have asked those 2 questions, as have check in agents, for years. They are DfT questions.

And I guess the large sign that reads "UK Border" is meant to indicate you are at the UK Border?? Seems pretty clear to me.

Most contractors wear hard hats and HiViz vests, irrespective of their nationality.

[Hermano Lobo]

Picture #2 is an alleged work of art from Damian Hirst.

Terminal 5 looks like an alleged work of art by Damian Hirst.:yuk:

Perhaps T5 should be entered for the Turner Prize ?:yuk:

There were many negative comments from the punters around me.

Bad direction signs or lack of. Sterile design, not user friendly etc etc.

Yes but it is a BIG building.

UK Grenze, oder Stalag Luft Fünf ?

"Most contractors wear hard hats and HiViz vests, irrespective of their nationality."

Really, what a fascinating piece of information. I would have never have guessed. I bet you are wicked in a pair of steel toe-tectors ?

[apaddyinuk]

WOw...you just kept repeating yourself!!!

And yes, there IS a train between T5A and T5B!!!

As someone who has to work in the thing, I do not think its all that its trumped up to be but its definately the best thing going in the UK because lets face it, you brits are not good at developing infrastructure. Some may not like its contemporary feel but I rather like it, personal preference I suppose. There are clocks ALL OVER the place....they are on the flight info screens. The UK Boarder thing is a new concept which is being introduced by immigration all over the UK. As to point 4, you clearly were acting the maggot, they did the best they could with two people who clearly did not want to play along. Perhaps the trial day that you were taking part in did not require the need for "DIFFICULT" passenger trials. They may only have been running tests on systems and jettys etc.

T5 will definately be a vast improvement on the rest of LHR. You may not like the look of it but you just need to go over to the central area or T4 and realise that you aint gonna do much better!

[Hermano Lobo]

apaddyinuk - you must be a UK boarder. I hope you don't pay too much rent?

Their computer system should have picked up that two passengers did not check in at the gate. If the trial is not realistic why bother? You speak like an apologist.

[Angry Rebel]

Uh careful there, us paddies don't exactly have a stellar record either. :O

On the other hand, I did note a comment in one of the newspapers that T5 has been the longest piece of infrastructure in UK history. Something in the range 15-20 years?!

[Hermano Lobo]

Bad vibes from Perry Oaks sewage farm:uhoh:

[Hermano Lobo]

Flyguy-

Who is Jade Goody ? One of the stewardesses you are friendly with, or is that a steward.


Apart from a few interesting comments I have not yet read a constructive, knowledgeable rebuttal of the points I have made.

[daelight]

I thought the Irish were building Terminal 5?

That has to be one of the most one-sided tosh I've taken precious minutes of my life reading. Agh , the muppetry ...

[Alan Tracey]

I visited T5 last week and I thought that it was amazing....

The sheer size, the natural light and the views must make it one of the best terminals in the world. I think that it's "minimal" design is based on the practical need to process millions of passengers, but also a place to enjoy whilst killing time waiting for your flight.

Like the idea of no floors reaching the sides of the building, giving the impression that they are floating and so maximising the light from the glass shell.

I guest you must see it to make your own opinion....

[Stretchwell]

Hermano - stick with T1/2/3 then if T5 is that bad. I've never heard such a load of amateur ill-informed drival. What kind of person takes part in such a trial anyway? Probably someone who hasn't the slghtest idea about such a topic I expect!

From what I've seen of T5 it was very impressive and light years ahead of anything else I've seen in the UK. It is similar to Hong Kong which has been hugely popular and a great success. Doubtless there will be teething problems as there are bound to be with such a huge project.

I hate it when someone just has to whinge and moan when something positive arrives.

Regards...........

[Skipness One Echo]

Putting my anorack for a second, are there any vies of the apron or airside views before security?

[Hartington]

I too have been a "trial passenger" at T5. I quite like the building. At the moment you get a great feeling of space. But I have my reservations. Many of the trial passengers don't seem to be regular travellers (nothing wrong with that as such), The result is an element of the herd instinct (just follow the person in front) which has some relevance for arriving passengers but not for departing. I'm also doubtful how much thought they are putting into their questionnaire answers.

The result is that I think there are a lot of shining reviews which may be leading BA and the BAA into a false sense of security. In particular I think there are some missing signs. For instance, acting as a transit passenger I found my way from T5B to the connections centre in T5a (using the TTS) and went back upstairs to be rescreened. But on exiting screening the gate wasn't promulgated and there was no indication what to do/where to go which resulted in people milling around immediately after security. Then as an arriving passsnger I got into the baggage hall and thought "where is the exit?" I'd missed a small illuminated overhead sign (which wasn't illuminated) at the foot of the escalator. There was no other sign pointing to the exit and when I questioned one of the hosts I was shown the (non) illuminated sign and told that the design of the wall in which the exit is situated called for it to be flat with no protruding signs which meant they couldn't put one up to point at the exit!

Anyway I'm taking the plunge and using it for real on 1st April so wish me luck. At least I now know where I'm likely to have to go.

[Hermano Lobo]

Thank you Hartington. First sensible reply !:ok: I experienced the same as you plus a bit more.

Big airey building but a sad use of modern fashionable grey.

There is a whole science to the use of angles and curves to create a feeling of well being. Large and functionional but in some areas the practical design has a lot to be desired.

Does anybody remember the 1960's Pan Am Terminal at JFK ?

I quite like Abu Dhabi

TWA Building
http://look-closer.net/VT010406_003.jpg


Pan Am Building

[Hartington]

The connection I made(!) was to domestic and I understand that the general preference is going to be to use the low numbered gates in the A terminal for these services so I had to go from B to A. The signs for flight connections lead you that way. I did query B to B connections and I think I was told that if you wanted to it would be possible to stay in B. There was a sign not long after we got off the plane about flights within 90 minutes departing from B but I didn't read it because I never transit Heathrow, I was in herd mode following everyone else and in any case I knew I needed to get back to A. The main signage I saw was for flight connections and I believe that most connecting passengers will follow that (as I did) rather than look at the 90 minute sign.

As for segregation I was with arriving passengers all the way from the gate, on the TTS through to A and only segregated myself when I headed for the connections centre and they all went to arrivals.

Gate allocation is interesting. When I exited screening for my connecting flight the gate wasn't promulgated and there was no indication where to go so I (and others) ended up milling about just airside of security. The trouble is that if a turnaround is what, an hour, if you put up the gate before the inbound has actually arrived and occupied the gate you run the risk of having a gate change which is probably not in anyones interests. But then, how often do incoming aircraft get a stand change?

Talking about stands I was looking at the stop bars on the lead in at the gate we were using. No A 380. So I looked at some others and found one which included the 380. Then I realised that it effectively had 3 lead in lines. The primary had all sorts of stop bars (747, 757, 767, A319/320/321 and A380 from memory). Then, either side, two secondary lines with stop bars only for airbus narrow bodies. So it appears that when a 380 is not present two narrowbodies can occupy the same space.

[Viewedfromabove]

The main advantage of the TWA and PAA terminals at JFK was that they were both quite close to the BOAC terminal where, after a week of getting a frozen gullet in blacked-out US bars, at least you could get a decent warm English beer before boarding the late night VC10 to LHR.

Back on topic, no doubt T5 is an excellent piece of architecture with some relatively minor bugs, that will need to be ironed out in the early stages of operation.

The real problems will come over the coming years as the BAA (B Awful Airports) gradually turns it into a giant shopping mall, leaving little space for its intended function of getting passengers to and from surface transport, from and to the aircraft.

From there its a short step to the squalor of T3, from the dungeons linking it to the public transport system, through the endless queues tailed back from the ineffective security, passing insanitary toilets, dodging round said endless shops to trudging the endless piers where the travelators seldom work.

Do the sensible thing, and use your friendly local airport to access a continental hub airport that works, not one of these BAA ghettos.

[Gonzo]

There are quite a few multi-stands in T5; so for example 544 is a 'Heavy' stand, and 544L and 544R are 'Medium' stands. This would apply if an A340, A330, 747 or 777 were parked on the 'Heavy' stand, not just a 380.

[egnxema]

Again, Hermano, you seem to be deliberately trying to provoke reaction rather than start discussion.

Maybe "Brother", the clues are there in your name, you have certainly entered here with the social skills of a Wolf.

[EC-ILS]

Hey everybody, just a quick question on the side.

Im flying BD later on this year DUB-LHR-BRU and return, does anyone have any idea what the transfer between the 2 parts of the terminal are like?

[Hartington]

So BRU-LHR-DUB on BD won't use T5. T5 will be BA only (at least that's the current plan).

See my previous post for some idea on the transfer process within T5. Someone else asked about T5 to/from the other terminals and the answer was "airside bus" (surprise).

[Hartington]

The amount of shopping in T5 is already pretty awesome. One thing I did notice is that they seem to have several eating places which I think is probably good.

Unlike the other terminals where the shops have been added as an afterthought in T5 they've been part of the design from day 1. As such, if you need to get to the gate I don't think they really get in the way.

[Viewedfromabove]

It'll be an even bigger one once the dreaded BAA bean counters get to work! The current BA senior management is just too weak to stand up to their slum landlords!

Witness their misguided support for the totally misguided LHR expansion plans.

[Hermano Lobo]

Viewedfromabove wrote: "T5 is an excellent piece of architecture"
As a piece of construction it is no doubt excellent, but as a piece of architecture, that depends on one's view.

I have given my views based on the experience of the trial. It is my perception, someone else would see it differently. I have given an honest opinion what I think, I don't need to go along with popular opinion. If you don't like my opinion, well tough luck.

It is no doubt a large and bright building but as another trialist next to me said,"Soulless!" - That is OUR opinion. We don't have any company or managers to please or show that we are 'on-board'.

Otherwise it is down to personal taste.

[WHBM]

endless piers where the travelators seldom work.
Actually the travelators are often in working order but are either shut down to save on running costs or nobody can be bothered to come round and start them (probably because the somebody who used to do that has been "efficiencied" out of a job).

Went to Manchester for the day a short while ago, in Underground to T1 passage on the outbound an overloaded luggage trolley jammed on the slight rise at the end of the travelator, then overturned. Lots more people coming along behind, I pressed the emergency stop button to deal with it.

Came back after lunch, nobody had got round to starting it again. It's a simple press button inside the control box.

[Skipness One Echo]

Am travelling with BA to Germany through Terminal One in March and I was wondering if I can wander down to take some airside shots in Terminal Two airside, as it will be closing soon. I know T1 and T2 share some gates between the Europier and T2, is it possible to move freely between the two when airside on the departure level ?

[daelight]

Hey guys , any news on why there's such a stack this morning? Are flights diverting?

[tigermike]

Fog is the reason for the holding. Not sure if there has been any divs yet.

[PAXboy]

Looking through the BAA website for information for my sister-in-law, who has to make a connection at EGLL that I never have to.

As I live close by, I do not need to get from the central bus station to T4. Memory says that she must:
Take the lift to the Train Station
Heathrow Express to T4
Lift to the Departures level
Needless, to say, the website gives no information about this at all. If it does then 30 minutes of poking around has not revealed it. I was 'amused' that the maps of the whole site simply mark the bus terminal with
no indication about getting to/from it. Obviously I know that there are tunnels to it but the map says nothing.

Was the Express closed when the Tube was - for the T5 expansion?

[Dave Gittins]

If the airlines concerned are transferring the baggage, don't they also have some appropriate shuttle busses as well ???

The alternative is get on a 285 bus which serves central and T4 (and then disappears to Kingston) but I wouldn't like to do it carrying all my suitcases.

DGG

edit ... asked a couple of guys who had done it and the HE is OK andf free between terminals .. there are also interlining shuttle busses.

DGG

[speedbird9]

What do you think about heathrows third runway and T6 also does any one know if the DC10/MD11 has reverse thrust on engine number 2 (tail engine)

[akerosid]

LHR Third Runway: needed yesterday. Probably won't be with us until at least 2015. Planning, legal challenges, Swampy brigade etc.

My only reservation is that the length seems to be "inching" up a bit; the original plan was for it to be about 2000-2200m (can't remember which) and now the latest plan has it being extended by a few hundred metres and I doubt if that will be the last. My understanding and hope was that this would be a runway for short haul aircraft, allowing easier feed to long haul flights, since short haul is being squeezed with demand for the current two runways. It wouldn't surprise me if, ultimately, the intention was to have the third runway at close to the length of the current terminal, in which case, short haul will ultimately be squeezed again.

As for T6, it is necessary, because without it, acft using the new runway will have to cross what is now 27R/9L and that will have an impact on operations on that runway; a new terminal close to R3 should avoid this.

As for the DC10/MD11, they definitely have three reversers, including one on the No2. I guess operation depends on the runway, but I flew j/s with Varig a few years back and was told that they prefer to use RT on 1 and 3 only, because if the No2 is locked or otherwise damaged, it would take longer to fix.

[Suzeman]

Talking about stands I was looking at the stop bars on the lead in at the gate we were using. No A 380. So I looked at some others and found one which included the 380. Then I realised that it effectively had 3 lead in lines. The primary had all sorts of stop bars (747, 757, 767, A319/320/321 and A380 from memory). Then, either side, two secondary lines with stop bars only for airbus narrow bodies. So it appears that when a 380 is not present two narrowbodies can occupy the same space.

As far as I remember, BAA calls (or called) this sort of arrangement MARS stands and I think there have been similar examples on some 747 stands at LHR for some while - whether they are still in use I don't know. And I can't remember what MARS stands for (Multiple Access R..... Stands?):confused:

Manchester has a similar arrangement on most T2 pier served stands (which have been there since the terminal opened in 1993) and on the Apron outside the Cargo Terminal.

It makes sense to make the best available use of your concrete as the aircraft mix changes throughout the day.

Suzeman

[warehouse man]

Hi All

I know how much of a pain security clearances are, going through customs etc but how about this for poor.

I have recently got a part time job at LHR in a warehouse trying to save for my atpl. One my first day i parked outside the shed, some lads were smoking outside, i introduced myself as being a new starter, was led inside the warehouse not seeing any manager/supervisor at all.

No passes or checks had been completed (i havent even filled in an application form!!) they had no details of me what so ever. I walked striaght threw and went airside, with no passes and found myself 50ft from a parked up 747-400...

Most of the staff there regularly go for walks airside when bored, and the guys driving the fork lifts airside dont have licenses or airsides passes.

I couldnt believe it, would'nt have been hard for me to slip something in one of the aircraft bins i was loading or wander of airside and cause havoc.

Warehouse man

[inbalance]

don´t feed him

[Il Duce]

You didn't get the job on your spelling and grammar skills, did you?

[warehouse man]

why do people here always just shoot people down?!! all i was trying to do was highlight what any sane/sensible person would think is a risk? maybe i shouldnt say anything to management then and let it slide eh??

idiots.

[Flightman]

No, maybe you SHOULD say something, to management first, and not on a aviation forum! :mad:

If indeed this is true, which I doubt.

[warehouse man]

i would have said something at the time but like i said i didnt get introduced to any managers/supervisors!! there were none there!

i kid you not i was shocked at this place....

[Musket90]

I think that operators with aircraft maintenance areas, cargo warehouses etc are supposed to manage their own security so "authorised" personnel only can access their secure areas, including where aircraft park. Many of these areas are leased by the operators concerned and therefore may not come under the same UK DfT regulations as for controlled and restricted airside areas. However I understand EU Security requirements may require this situation to change.
What you say suggests that the warehouse is mis-managed, so for you it may be best to consider financing your ATPL by another means.

[Avman]

Warehouse Man,

Most airport security is a total sham. It's based on fooling the public into thinking that they're safe. Large airports are in reality a security nightmare and it is totally impossible to keep them anywhere near 100% secure. Those on here who mock you obviously don't work at airports because they would know! Don't waste your time getting frustrated. Do your work, collect your pay and stay focused on obtaining your ATPL.

[Skipness One Echo]

Imagine in 2009 if we are re-reading this after a 747 is blown apart over London on departure from Heathrow, after an Islamic terrorist acts on this weakspot. Surely, without being hysterical, this is a serious matter that needs addressing today.
Let's also remember that we must be aware that Osama's acolytes are also capable of reading pprune.....

[pwalhx]

I work in freight and I can assure you that all parts of the airport are covered by Dft requirements and rather than worry about the guys spelling we should worry about the lack of security.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Exactly which cargo shed are you referring to ??

Because as far as I know the only one that has direct ramp access is BA, and the chance of getting out through the front and out the back are virtually impossible.

Surely this isn't a journo coming out with a load of lies looking for stories .... :suspect::suspect:

[EC Does It]

Warehouse Man,

Perhaps you should be saving for your ATPL instead, you may find it annoying but............. being factually and grammatically accurate is what separates us men from the boys. Comprehensively.

[sikeano]

Warehouse Man, Are you a Journo in disguise
Getting a Job without filling in a application form :D

Question : To work as a freelance Journo, do you have to fill a form :p

Stay clear from this Forum Journo, I am sure you will be back under a different name :yuk:

[Viewedfromabove]

Please don't shoot the messenger. Lack of security is something that puts us all at risk. And don't just assume that UK airport terminal security as practised by the BAA is really making us any safer.

[Llademos]

Beware if you're hoping to pick someone up from LHR T4 - you now have to park inthe short term car park, which costs £1.50 to get in and (I think) 9p a minute after that! It cost me £1.70 and was only there for 2-3 minutes, tops! :mad:

To further wind everyone up, the traffic management into T4 is appalling - queues back to the roundabout at 8am Sunday! :mad:

Ll

[warehouse man]

I can assure you all I am not a jorno! as some of you have pointed out my spelling is not of the required standard to work for the papers! (normally because my g/f is rushing me to get of pprune as "dancing on ice" is on and she wants me to watch it with her :ugh:)

Today again i was 50ft from a 747, most cargo sheds have airside access, horse shoe and sandringham road. I was told today that the warehouse staff normally go up to the in-flight caterers and get them to throw down meals! none of these people have a/s passes.

When i left for work for the day the supervisers were outside the front of the shed smoking dope, these are the same goons that drive the forklifts airside.

I have however been informed that the company is trying to arrange passes, so hopfully the bosses are aware of the issues..

[warrior28]

all sandringham road/shoreham horseshoe cargo sheds have airside access.

[fantom]

This morning:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7254455.stm

[green granite]

BA, the main airline based at the terminal, is warning its customers that they may not be able to travel if they have luggage to be checked in.

Are they seriously telling us that they can't handle luggage without a computer? What's wrong with people reading the labels on the bags and putting them on the correct plane.? Gross incompetence in my opinion not to have a manual back up system in place.

[hatters united]

Just had the daughter on the phone in tears stuck that mess :ugh::mad: Having to get transfered to a Gatwick flight to Oman tonight :mad:

That's a day gone out of her holiday already, bet the BAA don't give a damn or any sort of compensation either.

WHAT A SHAMBLES !!! B.A.A. SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELFS.

But I suppose they will just hand themselfs a nice big bonus :ugh:

[FlexibleResponse]

Perhaps BAA could benefit from a few lessons on how to run an International Airport from Singapore or Hong Kong, for example?

Obviously, the expertise doesn't seem to exist in the UK?

[deep_south_gb]

is this a BA or a BAA problem - who is actually responsible for this? It does seem crazy that they can only handle F & J passengers luggage - every one else is told only 2 pieces of hand luggage... but only the 100ml of liquids....

[EagleStar]

Don't forget that there is no customer service at BAA anymore. They only teach their staff the BAA/Ferrovial One Rule of Customer Service... i.e. The middle finger!

How they can expect anyone to fly longhaul without hold baggage is beyond me but don't worry... I'm sure their fabricated monthly reports will be doctored to show how efficient LHR and BAA are and how disruption was kept to a minimum!

Heathrow stinks!

[3Greens]

Deep south

F And J pax have differant carry on luggage allowances so i imagine they are being allowed to take their luggage with them; don't know about oversize items though as they won't fit through the x-ray scanners. BAA is responsible for the infrastructure, BA are only the tennants.

[EagleStar]

It's a BAA problem! I fee sorry for the airlines (even BA at the moment) as the infrastructure of the Terminals is not maintained properly... The good news for BA though is that Bluewater2 is only a few weeks away

Feel sorry for the rest of the airlines who use LHR!

[WHBM]

Yes, apparently they are indeed telling pax they can't travel with any checked bags - and the handbaggage restrictions remain in place, so if you have a suitcase you are stuffed. Expectation of delivery of hold bags at destination if you do check them in foir later handling is being given out as 7 days, but we all know the chances are too high you will never see them again and BA will send them all to auction eventually if that proves to be cheaper.

Of course some of the lazy, latte-stuffed, paper-pushing lot from Waterworld, hundreds of them, could have come over and done it by hand, as the baggage handlers won't do anything beyond their contract, but they can't be bothered either. Actually on reflection security would probably veto that, saying anyone from Waterworld without an airside pass must automatically be Al-Qaeda.

I'm given to believe that if the flight actually operates, but the pax can't/won't travel without their bags, then no EU compensation is payable, which is probably why it is done this way. When will carriers realise that carriage of pax bags is not somehow optional?

What a shower.

[The SSK]

WHBM Things must have changed, I recall baggage strikes in the 1970s when half the occupants of Speedbird House turned out to help, evenings and weekends. Getting an airside pass, scooting around the ramp, crawling through holds - marvellous. Only gripe was that the Supreme Boss bagged the job of tractor driver.

[jimma]

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/flightops/public/en_gb?p_faqid=3148

This is the BA "article" posted on their website. Feel really sorry for anyone wanting to travel through terminal 4. Hopefully this wont affect the new terminal 5 when I fly out in April.

[WHBM]

WHBM Things must have changed, I recall baggage strikes in the 1970s when half the occupants of Speedbird House turned out to help, evenings and weekends. Getting an airside pass, scooting around the ramp, crawling through holds - marvellous. Only gripe was that the Supreme Boss bagged the job of tractor driver.
I remember that too - as soon as the Trident came to a stand one evening a whole lot of the office staff pitched into the hold and the bags were delivered quicker than usual.

One of the beancounters told me all the extra time was paid at baggage handlers overtime rates, and one of the guys built a house extension wth the proceeds !

[hatters united]

The SSK,

You seem to think this is funny.

I don't care what happened in 1970 or whatever:{

As far as I'm concerned management are ultimately responsable and the LOT OF THEM SHOULD BE FIRED for gross neglegance :D

[egbt]

Here is the announcement:

Due to system malfunctions there is severe disruption to the carriage of hold baggage at London Heathrow Terminal 4, this includes flight with Air Malta, BA, Qantas, Kenya Airlines, KLM, Sri Lankan Airlines.

BA has made the following announcement:

The following passengers flying from London Heathrow Terminal 4 on Wednesday 20 February:
Should not bring luggage to be checked in.
Long haul passengers in the following cabins
· World Traveller (economy)
· World Traveller Plus (premier economy)
As well as all transfer passengers
Passengers who do bring baggage to be checked in will not be able to travel
The following passengers are not affected
· Passengers in Club World, First and those holding BA Silver & Gold cards.
· Transfer passengers flying from Terminals 1, 2, or 3

[Flame]

Coming through LHR T1 security (PAX) yesterday evening, I was in a line where everyone was asked to take their shoes off for examination....no problem at all, except that in the line beside me, the people were being told that there was no need to take shoes off.

When I asked about this after I passed through, I was told its a random examination that they do at LHR T1...great idea, except that if I did not want to have my shoes x-rayed, I could have picked the line to go through to make sure they were not looked at!!

[WHBM]

I don't think SSK, or indeed any of us, find this funny. It is perfectly reasonable to cite a situation from the past when things were overcome without gross inconvenience to pax, and to compare it to the current posiion when nothing like it happens.

[egbt]

Look guys, have a sense of proportion.

No company with an automated system is going to keep enough people on immediate standby to manually operate the system, even if is physically possible to do so (and don't forget the health a saftey jobsworths who will probably stop "untrained" staff doing the job). Clearly IT systems should have backups and there should be some redundancy but sometimes things do go wrong.

[WHBM]

Are KLM (who presumably use the same BAA baggage system in T4) and the other T4 carriers also stopping pax checking bags today ?

[747-436]

I presume the rule about no hold luggage for non-premium passengers might have come from the BAA and not the Airlines?

[Flying Grasshopper]

This is effecting ALL the airlines at Terminal 4, what a bloody shambles BAA are not fit for purpose.

[green granite]

Look guys, have a sense of proportion.

No company with an automated system is going to keep enough people on immediate standby to manually operate the system, even if is physically possible to do so (and don't forget the health a saftey jobsworths who will probably stop "untrained" staff doing the job). Clearly IT systems should have backups and there should be some redundancy but sometimes things do go wrong

What a load of :mad:, their JOB is to get passengers onto the aircraft with their luggage. It's called providing a service, if the company (BAA) is not able to provide that service then the senior management should be removed and more competent people put in their place, There should always be a back up system for any failure mode and failure to have one in place is incompetence. It's probably due to worshipping the great god of "profit before service" or ":mad: the customers the share holders are more important" syndrome.

[BahrainLad]

Are BA honestly suggesting that a pax checking in at say, JFK in WT+ with a flight transferring to say, Dubai who may have spent $4,000+ on their ticket will be told at the desk that can only travel with a small laptop bag?

If so, the wheels have well and truly come off this shower of an air transport system.

[Hydroman400]

What a :mad:.....I am flying through t4 tomorrow and was planning to bring a large case to fill it up with some decent food from old blighty...as forgein food is gash ;) There goes my cunning plan:ugh:

Bugger Anyone Always

[Suzeman]

Obviously, the expertise doesn't seem to exist in the UK?

Probably as all the good UK airport expertise left to go and help with new projects all over the world (incl SIN & HKG) sometime ago. :}

I would be totally hacked off if I was a T4 pax today which is another reason to avoid LHR like the plague.

And now the big question - will life get any better when T5 opens? :hmm:

Discuss

Suzeman

[hatters united]

Green Granite,

Couldn't agree with you more, Senior heads should ROLL :ugh:

[EagleStar]

Oh yes... I'm sure T5 will be superb! You'll be able to buy a Gucci bag, drink a latte from one of 50 coffe shops, have a £15 sandwich and buy a different scarf / tie from one of 1000 Tie Rack stores...... and then maybe if you are really lucky you might be able to take a plane trip

BTW - No hoodies allowed in T5 aka Bluewater 2

[groundhand]

My sympathies to anyone who has had, or will have, travel plans disrupted by this failure.

Whether this is a software problem within the baggage transfer and delivery system or a facilities failure itself; it shows a lack of managment skills on behalf of the BAA in that they do not seem to have any back-up plan to mitigate the failure.

Any airport knows (or SHOULD know) the volumes of baggage going through their systems at any time; models worked on histories and flight programmes can acurately predict the anticipated volumes.

BAA should be held to account. Unfortunately I would predict that the airlines will not be able to take action because of the terms and conditions imposed by the BAA for operators and there is no breech of contract involving individual passengers as they have no direct contract with the BAA.

Will T5 be any better - don't make me laugh, almost guaranteed that there will be major disruption at some stage within the first 6 months of opening.
The BAA are more interested in investing in ambience to encourage shopping than rock solid infrastructure behind the scenes.

[EGBE0523]

Will T5 be any better - don't make me laugh, almost guaranteed that there will be major disruption at some stage within the first 6 months of opening.

Start of the school summer holidays or the August bank holiday weekend are my bets, better get onto William Hill before the odds shorten!

[radeng]

It's about time there was a passenger's charter in which incompetence of this level counted as a criminal offence. At the very least, BAA should be made to compensate passengers - say to twice the value of their ticket. And have a limit placed on how much they can increase their charges.

I totally agree with green granite. This is the usual BAA management incompetence. Knowing what happens if the baggage system fails, they should have emergency back up procedures of some sort. Of course, less automation and more manual staff could actually be less likely to have these cock ups.....

[speedrestriction]

If only passengers were to vote with their feet and, where possible, take flights from alternative airports where they wouldn't have to put up with the nonsense and excuses maybe then customer satisfaction might find its way onto the agenda. :ugh:.....what was that...did someone mention monopoly?

sr

[bar none]

Big Airways Boardroom.
Willy agrees that there are many international standard airports in the UK but he decides to concentrate his resources on one only.
Which one should he choose?
Which one is the biggest hell hole that several times a year, every year, has two or three melt downs, and always will despite T5.
Answer, Heathrow.
Sound business decision or what?

[spekesoftly]

According to BA's latest/updated announcement things have improved a little for some of their pax travelling from T4 today (20th). Hold luggage for some destinations can now be checked in, irrespective of cabin.

See link on post #11

[intortola]

If you are visiting the UK surely you have no choice but to check in luggage if you are returning, its not like you can just leave it in a hotel etc. Not so bad if you live in the UK but still seems totally unreasonable, can passengers change their travel dates without penalty?

[merlinxx]

BAA = British Applied Arseholes


I rest my case, I thank my luck stars that I don't have to go near Hounslow Bus Garage.

[Paradise Lost]

Absolutely scandalous state of affairs yet again. At least BA shouldn't lose too many bags today, just the passengers this time!
I'm a corporate driver and every time I read of these horror stories, I just think it makes my job more secure. Scheduled travel from or via LHR or CDG are amongst the most unpleasant experiences one inflicts on oneself. I'd rather have a root canal job without the novocaine!!!!

[4potflyer]

Yes some people who cannot delay their trips and have no UK relatives or colleagues to take their baggage to LHR later are going to end up fedexing their luggage if BAA won't let it be checked in and held until the system is back up.

I hope BAA will reimburse such passengers.

What a cock up.

Glad I am flying back to the UK via Munich to MAN. LHR always has some unplanned adventure in store for me...

[stormin norman]

If the baggage belt problem was caused by a computer reload ,did anyone in the BAA think to keep a copy of the last one and reload that ?
Probally not ,that would be far to simple for them.

[Flightman]

If the baggage belt problem was caused by a computer reload ,did anyone in the BAA think to keep a copy of the last one and reload that ?
Probally not ,that would be far to simple for them.

You mean:

did anyone in the THE COMPANY THAT SUPPLIES THE BAGGAGE SYSTEM think to keep a copy of the last one and reload that ?Probally not ,that would be far to simple for them.

[Re-Heat]

Look guys, have a sense of proportion.

No company with an automated system is going to keep enough people on immediate standby to manually operate the system, even if is physically possible to do so (and don't forget the health a saftey jobsworths who will probably stop "untrained" staff doing the job). Clearly IT systems should have backups and there should be some redundancy but sometimes things do go wrong.
I have to strenuously disagree; if Fedex for example were unable to process the huge number of packages that they do 24 hrs a day at their processing centres, the company would be on their knees. Their business is to deliver passengers and baggage from one point on the globe to another, therefore BA and BAA should be capable of sufficient management foresight to consider the possibilities if IT is not working.

[lowlypax]

According to one report in the papers I saw today they did try and reload the software.

Even on a good day Heathrow is a bloodly awful place to fly from and bearing in mind that it is the first thing new visitors to the UK see, it is a disgrace that it has been allowed to become so shabby (dirty/torn seats and carpets, water stains on walls, ineffective cleaning, badly maintained plumbing etc). In addition to this we have the security hassles and stupid carry on luggage weight restrictions. Contrast this with HK, Tokyo and Singapore. They have the advantage that their facillities are run by people who care about and take pride in what they are doing.

As far as BAA performance goes people have to be held accountable and heads must roll when they screw up. Personally I favour shooting them as it stops repeat offending and is a most effective motivator for the next one in the job, but I am just old fashioned.

Rant over

[raveng]

In response to the post from green granite, er, how many people would be needed to
1. heave 'x' 000s of bags per flights, never mind transfers.
2. go through security searches
3 any additonal search - where would all the bags go in the first place.
4 once 'OK', then go back through the maze of T4 to get back to apron and then to an aircraft. PLEASE, think about it.

B.A.A. shambles all over again.
Again it'sthe likes of BA,it's poor passengers and staff who will bear the brunt and cost of this.

IMHO, I hope the various airlines BA, KLM etc operating from T4, act together and litigate. Enough really is enough. :eek:

[Rwy in Sight]

Isn't there anything on the contract of the top BAA management that obliges them to meet a certain level of service (like amount of delays, baggage delivered within x amount of time) and based on that they receive their bonus?

I seem to recall some years ago that Royal Mail managers received salary invreases based on the perception of the users.


Rwy in Sight

[king surf]

Wait till the pilots strike starts,baggage will be the least of peoples worries:{

[bill_s]

In my trade of fixing engineering cockups, it is often more difficult to persuade management to bring in a fresh mind than it is to fix the bloody mess. And I have never heard the lot who invented the mess admit their mistakes.

So Airbusses ignored TOGA unless you pushed the magic button, and machines eat luggage placed in their care. I think DEN had the same situation when they fired up their computerized system, only they discovered the problems while they were testing the system.

[perkin]

HK, Tokyo and Singapore

Why look so far? We've got AMS little more than a couple of hundred miles away in the most densely populated country in Europe, it has 6 runways, airy, light & clean terminal buildings, plenty of spare capacity, a baggage system that largely works as it should, sensible public transport links, I could go on and on...LHR is an absolute disgrace in comparison! LHR doesn't handle that many more pax per annum than AMS to justify its 3rd world condition.

[PC767]

re getting waterworld groupies to load bags - they don't possess airside passes and at the moment in nothing works UK it is taking 6-7 weeks for new cabin crew to be processed through the checks to get an airside id. So no chance for the latte mob in an emergency.

As an aside, whilst i pray t5 helps solve this baggage problem, a chat with a TRM recently revealed that the a trial where by 2000 bags were checked in and delivered to the aircraft failed. NOt one bag made it in time for the fictional departure.

[CorkEICK]

The easy "Ryanair" type solution is make the passengers carry their luggage to the aircraft. Indeed I can remember in the late 70's or early 80's having to pick up my hold luggage at the steps of the Cork to London BA trident and hand it over to be loaded. This was due to "the troubles" in northern Ireland. Only difficulty is how do you security check the baggage....! Maybe all the people not handling the bags cos of the belt breakdown cud do it. They have airside passes etc.

[PJ2]

I travelled through T4 just once on my way from YVR to CDG and I will never, ever do that again - the journey from T3 to the T4 gate was simply the poorest managed, ill-staffed, unfriendly I have ever experienced anywhere, anytime at any airport including transfers at Toronto. Huge long line-ups with only two security lines open, no toilets, hallways festooned with cast-off "illegal" plastic whatevers and one set of security staff talking about shutting their booth/detector until they thought the better of it when "word" spread down the line... It is an atrocious assault on the traveller who simply wishes to pay his/her little all for a journey from here to there.

Frankly speaking, I know people now who are actually willing to board a ship on the North American east coast to make a civilized crossing to Europe than take an airliner into such cauldrons, and that isn't even "lo-cost" treatment. I know...you're "buying time" and business is important isn't it, not convenience, and even half a day in line like cattle is better than a day at sea being served comfortably and civily....

Hmm....

[Lucky B]

Just like their handling of PAX following BA38 crash BAA couldn't handle a p..s up in a Brewery! Interesting that many of the people bemoaning BAA this time are the same people that said the PAX from BA38 should be just thnakful to be alive and not complain about the treatment post the crash. How things change!:)

[manrow]

PJ2,

I sympathise with your views.

Unfortunately London Heathrow far from being our showpiece airport has been a hotbed of union discontent/bloody mindedness exacerbated by incompetent management for many years. Our dithering government don't help any either.

It might be preferable to plan to close Heathrow eventually and start again with an international interlining airport elsewhere on the Thames if we can ever get the flora and fauna groups to agree that commonsense must prevail? I don't hold out much hope of that!!

[pulse1]

It doesn't take computer sytems and complicated handling equipment to lose baggage. My son was working airside at T2 last week and, in 1 hour, he saw five seperate incidents of baggage falling off trolleys on the way out to aircraft. Presumably this will get even worse with more passengers and baggage being bussed longer distances during the rebuilding work on T2

[PAXboy]

Whilst we are all give BAA a good kicking ...

EagleStarBTW - No hoodies allowed in T5 aka Bluewater 2Interesting, a teenage boy wearing a hooded sweat shirt shows more of his face than a Roman Catholic nun. Better bar the nuns. :rolleyes:

lowlypaxbearing in mind that it is the first thing new visitors to the UK see, it is a disgrace that it has been allowed to become so shabbyIt is my view that BAA cannot be blamed for this, neither it's previous or current owners. The Conservative Party sold off LHR saying that it would then regulate through the CAA. The CAA have singularly failed to do so.

As far as BAA performance goes people have to be held accountableBy whom? As long as the money comes in, their shareholders don't care. The CAA? The govt?

EGLL is a license to print money and it was sold off as a short term financial gain. Let's identify the politicians who sold it off but, wait, they are no longer on the scene and will blame the CAA. Can we identify the people in CAA who have let it slide in the past 20 years? I doubt it very much.

So, will pax go elsewhere?
Some will and many transit pax will, but those who live within a 75 mile radius? And that is why it is a license to print money.

[blackace]

Oh yes... I'm sure T5 will be superb!

Yes, I am sure it will be (after years of debugging the software). But as I know many of the people and companies working on it I would not count on it.

I am an unfortunate who has started working on T4, it is ready to be closed down for the transfer of BA to T5 and ready to accept the star alliance crowd including US carriers.

There are many jobs to do and it will be a much better terminal when it is finished.

Nuff Said. Give us engineers a break.

After all, we don't call you pilots useless wan**rs every time a plane crashes.

No one died, no one was injured. In fact it was in the interest of everyone to shut down operations to ensure that no unscreened baggage was passed clear to go on the aircraft.

Suppose there was a bomb and they resorted to manual handling, would you be happy with that ?

Contrary to popular belief, all hold baggage MUST pass a 5 level process of screening before it is allowed anywhere near an aircraft. If that system fails in any way and the baggage cannot be screened then they cannot be allowed on an aircraft.

Blame the terrorists for forcing the airports to have such stringent checks. But for gods sake don't complain when those systems go wildly wrong and just cannot perform. With the best will in the world things do go wrong and with the complexity of baggage systems you should count yourself lucky this is not a once a month occurrence. As it is the redundancy built it can cope most of the time, but every now and again it will fail big time.

Deal with it, these systems are for everyone's safety. Remember that when you call in and complain that you cant take off because a bulb that tells you someone's smoking in the toilets isn't working in the cockpit.

[PJ2]

blackace;

I suspect every professional pilot on this forum will grant the respect engineers rightly deserve - it is upon the engineering professions' knowledge and expert skills and experience that we rest our substantial trust and we hope that they all got good marks at university!

I don't think it's the "workability" of the design but the infrastructure design in which work must be done, the "people management" aspect, and, frankly, trying to do a huge and complex job under-resourced: on-the-cheap. One can have a mausoleum, a monument-to-ego such as Toronto's Terminal One which Lou Terpen built, for whom we do not know, or you can have a run-o'-the-mill terminal which does not yet look like yet another ugly shopping mall and is actually an airport terminal - it is the design and subsequent management of resources and appropriate services for passengers which separates outright hatred of airline flying from mere strained tolerance. People will put up with a great deal if they know their needs are being respected and cared for even if it falls short. Many arrangements however, virtually shout disrespect for the traveller and it is that diffidence towards the very sources of revenue which makes such mausoleums and what-have-you's possible, that is making people actually consider POSH again...

[blackace]

PJ2

The system that failed today is nothing to do with passengers. It is a faceless system they never encounter. However, I do understand your comments when applied to Heathrow. As a passenger there myself I can see the concrete shoulder, hard nosed, wish I could have been a policeman crowd rule supreme there.

Infrastructure is rank, knock it all down and start again.

But while we cant do that we have to make what we have work. Some decisions are good, some are bloody terrible.

But be sure, there is a lot of complexity in the baggage systems that is never seen by most on this forum. Everything is done not to ensure baggage loss, but to make sure one of you guys doesn't get a rude awakening in the cockpit one day.

We are not immigrants on low pay (Baggage handlers excepted :)), we are highly paid engineers who take pride in our job. But every now and again things go wrong beyond the capacity of the systems. We are not talking about the VP or passenger scanners here, this is some hard nosed sophisticated equipment.

And when it goes wrong, I would rather cancel flights than let them take off with unscreened baggage. Wouldn't you ?

Geez, Just read GG's post number 2.

What's wrong with people reading the labels on the bags and putting them on the correct plane.? Gross incompetence in my opinion not to have a manual back up system in place.

Not a friking clue about the real world.

There is a manual back up system in place, get yourself a £500,000 scanner. Validate it to BAA with at least 10,000 bags that all pass or fail correctly, build a conveyor system around it to handle multiple check ins terminals and airlines and one that accepts transfer baggage from other flights or early flight baggage that needs to sit in the system for 2 or 3 days, then purchase a level 3 and 4 scanner at £1,000,000 each and get that validated in a similar fashion and then convince the government that you are trustworthy and there is your manual system. Eventually I might just come and work for you.

Either that or get a train instead.

I am well paid and love my job, I make sure bombs do not get on planes and spend hours throwing semtex through scanners to make sure the worst never happens.

Manual System, Sheesh, yea right.

[emaint2003]

It is little wonder that BAA is a shambles. If you look at their "senior management team" not one of them is an aviation professional, plenty of retailers and financial people. How can you run a business when you nothing about it? Ferrovial have destroyed BAA's finances by taking on huge debts to pay for the company in the first place. I have heard that the penny pinching going on is quite incredible! Anyway maybe Mr Nelson will go and recruit some people who know what they are talking about.

ps used LHR 3 weeks ago it was awful!

[FlightlessParrot]

Just in case anyone from BAA is reading this, I'm Brit-born, resident in NZ. I will now do almost anything to avoid Heathrow, aka sh1tehole of the universe. Specifically, we're making a trip to Europe in a couple of months. It would have been significantly cheaper to fly via LHR, but no way, Jose. Just a few hundred dollars to avoid that place -- a bargain.

Once upon a time, Air NZ operated into Gatwick. They complained at having to be made to move there, but even though Gatwick's taxi monopoly is a disgrace, I'd gladly choose an airline that flew there (or Stansted) rather than LHR.

Yes, blackace, it's difficult to run an airline and systems fail, but LHR is a pestilential hellhole even when everything is working normally, and no-one seems to have been given the idea that helping passengers is part of the deal. It's a relief to get on a bus.

[chillie]

BAA could learn something from the old Soviet Union.

Just carry you own bag out to the apron and stuff it in the hold ourself. Used to work for them.

[Seloco]

So, today BA is saying:

On Thursday 21 February, ALL transfer passengers through London Heathrow Terminal 4 should not bring luggage to be checked in as they will not be able to travel

On Thursday 21 February, all passengers starting their journey and checking in at London Heathrow Terminal 4 can check their luggage in as normal.

On Thursday 21 February, all passengers starting their journey from or transferring through London Heathrow Terminals 1, 2 or 3 can check their luggage in as normal.

So, if I arrive in T4 on KLM from AMS and want to transfer to BA long haul with checked bags, I will NOT be allowed to travel. However, if I arrive in T1 on BD from AMS, for instance, and want to transfer to BA long haul from T4 with checked bags, I WILL be allowed to travel?

By the way, if you want the above information from BA you have to log on or register for their site, it's not freely available news for all, and if you go on to the BAA site they say that everything should be OK today!

You couldn't make it up really, could you?!

Some questions:

If T4 is going to be closed for conversion soon once T5 opens, why on earth change the baggage handling system there NOW?
Normal good practice for any mission-critical IT system is to test, test and test again to ensure that any possibility of failure is reduced to negligible proportions; so what went wrong here?

I've been travelling through LHR since 1957 - and several times a month for the last twenty years. Each experience makes me more ashamed of it.

I also seriously question why the UK actually wants it to be a premier hub for Europe. As emission regulations really begin to bite over the next few years it is likely to become a major liability to have large numbers of aircraft polluting one's country's low-level airspace. We should recognise this and be grateful that the Dutch and the French and the Germans seem both more willing and more able to shoulder this burden on Europe's behalf! If we accept that then there should really be no need for the "second Heathrow" being proposed for north of the A4, should there? Spend the money on a high speed monorail linking LHR, LGW and STN and run them as a single "virtual" airport I say........

(Edited to add website information above)

[DingerX]

Sometimes I think what separates Albion from Albania is the whinging.
Yes, airport management sucks. And, these days, when something fails groundside, the whole system has lost elasticity, so that the results are rather inconvenient for the people involved.
That doesn't make LHR any less of a pit, to be avoided at all costs.


There is a manual back up system in place, get yourself a £500,000 scanner. Validate it to BAA with at least 10,000 bags that all pass or fail correctly, build a conveyor system around it to handle multiple check ins terminals and airlines and one that accepts transfer baggage from other flights or early flight baggage that needs to sit in the system for 2 or 3 days, then purchase a level 3 and 4 scanner at £1,000,000 each and get that validated in a similar fashion and then convince the government that you are trustworthy and there is your manual system. Eventually I might just come and work for you.
Okay. So you've got some expensive scanners and even more expensive v&v.
Figure how much that costs. Now go figure out how much the current failure is costing every day in terms of load factors, compensation and lost business. Those scanners and red tape are chump change. So perhaps you could explain why the claim of "Security" is anything but a red herring?

On the other hand, there's the conveyor system and the sorting system. Now here's the technological marvel, and this is the one that cost DEN so much money. It is conceivable that these things are designed extremely efficiently, such that it would be prohibitively difficult in terms of training, cost and maneuvering space to keep enough people around in case it fails. And if it fails, it costs a huge amount of money. That makes it a system that "cannot fail".

So what have I missed? Either you have a system that can fail, in which case some backup should be in place, or you have one that cannot fail, in which case it doesn't.

[spekesoftly]

By the way, if you want the above information from BA you have to log on or register for their site,Near the top of BA's website there's a link headed:

"Essential information for longhaul passengers departing from or transferring London Heathrow Terminal 4"

It takes you to the relevant information without any log in or registration.

[Maufe]

Blackace: I am well paid

Then presumably you will have no problem with personally compensating inconvenienced passengers for their increased costs caused by your (self admitted) failure to keep the system going.

[Seloco]

Near the top of BA's website there's a link headed:

"Essential information for longhaul passengers departing from or transferring London Heathrow Terminal 4"

It takes you to the relevant information without any log in or registration.

Agreed, does now (albeit via "choose your country"); didn't earlier this morning!

[PAXboy]

blackace Thank you for contributing a most interesting sidelight on your work, of which most of us know little.

Whilst some in this forum are attacking anything that moves at EGLL, I think that the regular traveller wants to criticise the BAA mgmt for their lack of communication on the day and at the time of need. Since the infrastructure is 'fronted' by the carrier, BAA are often able to hide behind them.

One of the hallmarks of modern companies is not providing cogent and timely information when things go wrong. In days gone by, manual intervention could often save the day and you have helpfully told us why that is not possible in this case. Had BAA given more information and explanation, then customers might not be so aggrieved - but I doubt it. The accumulated grief of paxing through LHR means that BAA have used every last drop of customer tolerance.

Thanks again for telling us the real information.

[Woofrey]

Perhaps it won't be as bad in Terminal 5.

I recall hearing some time ago that British Airways were putting in their own outbound baggage system, paying for it and running it themselves.

So it'll be just fine then, and with back up and contingency like no other.

This would seem to hold up as the BAA website for T5 only refers to the arrivals baggage carousels as ones they have put in.

[radeng]

Blackace,

Passengers (and airlines) pay for the system to work. It would therefore be fair for BAA to pay back all the bits of the payment they receive for the service they have failed to provide. Alternatively, make the investment in back up systems, but stop swindling the customers! Because that's what BAA are doing - charging their customers and then failing to deliver the services they have charged for.

[DCS99]

I wrote this about a major ATC systems failure a few years ago.

Plus ca change, plus la meme chose:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=499138#post499138

So what bit didn't happen with your changes to T4 Baggage system?

[Final 3 Greens]

Blackace

You say "Not a friking clue about the real world."

In the real world, service providers are expected deliver what they promise.

With the unique security regs, a large airline who seems to be constantly under the threat of strike action and an airport operator which is frequently cited as failing to deliver appropriate service levels, London is becoming top of the list of places to avoid changing flights.

The chickens will come home to roost and the UK is p*ssing away its competitive advantage as the gateway in/out of Europe, thanks to an attitude that the massess will have to accept what they are given.

As 411A would say, it ain't so and some folks will only find out the hard way.

[747-436]

Imagine if this had happened to Ryanair at STN, Mr O'Leary would have made Ryanair's feelings on the matter known!!


The BAA website is also talking crap, what they say below isn't correct.

BAA T5 Website:

"We've designed a world-class baggage handling system for Terminal 5 to ensure your bags get from aircraft to carousel as efficiently as possible."

BAA have nothing to do with getting the luggage from aircraft to arrivals belt for arrivals as they state, that is BA's job!! The world class system for doing that is called a baggage tug and dollies!!!

Back to the topic in hand, I too hope that BAA aren't p***ing away the UK's competitive aviation market by being useless at running LHR, or any other airport. Perhaps the people who run Bluewater should come and run Heathrow!!

[infrequentflyer789]

PJ2
And when it goes wrong, I would rather cancel flights than let them take off with unscreened baggage. Wouldn't you ?
[...]
Not a friking clue about the real world.


In the real world today, BA are saying that the luggage ban now applies only to "ALL transfer passengers departing from..."

The transfer bag is already airside, having been checked at an airport where the system works (unlike LHR), has just come off one plane, and gets put on another. So what has the ban on transfer luggage got to do with "security" today ?

[Need to Know Basis]

Just to add to the previous. Totally Agree. The aviation company I work for based in the US and its sales people have long held the view that LHR is to be avoided at all costs. Not just T4 or BA - the entire airport. The BAA own it and run it so the blame lies with the BAA. The general view being " They could`nt organise a p**s up in a brewery " I have never been able to defend it or excuse it. Its a 3rd World airport. God Bless all the US carriers straining to launch out of LHR after 30th Mar with Open Skies......mind you the alternative or existing airport being LGW is not much better than LHR. Toss a Coin ! Guess what ? BAA runs both. :ugh:

[Suzeman]

It's about time there was a passenger's charter in which incompetence of this level counted as a criminal offence. At the very least, BAA should be made to compensate passengers - say to twice the value of their ticket. And have a limit placed on how much they can increase their charges.

And other similar demands for compensation.

As far as I know a compensation regime already exists under the existing pricing controls which runs to 31st March. BAA pay - I think to the airlines not the pax :* -a rebate for failing to meet certain service standards which I would assume includes the availability of the baggage system. Or is it just when shops are not open? :} So I think the airlines trouser the rebate which no doubt take ages to agree, probably at least a year in arrears and the poor pax is just left out of pocket and with a sour taste in their mouths.:ugh:

The CAA are currently consulting on the price controls for the 5 years from April and as far as I can find out are proposing the following

Increasing the maximum rebates for failing to meet service standards from three per cent to seven per cent of total airport charges revenues

Raising the standards that the airport will be required to achieve to avoid penalties under the service quality rebates scheme (in particular, in respect of security queues)

Broadening the scope of the service quality rebates scheme to cover additional key areas that were identified by the Competition Commission - not sure what these are.


Strengthening the use of capital investment triggers for agreed project milestones, where failure to meet a milestone would result in significantly greater financial penalties than at present.

There is also a proposal to reward BAA if they exceed standards, so I guess they won't be factoring too much income from this stream :}- unless the targets are unrealistically low. But I doubt this will be the case as the airlines and AUC have all been asked to comment.:)

Suzeman

[EagleStar]

BAA supposedly has service quality rebates. If they fail to meet their targets they are fined - Atleast that it what is supposed to happen but they have somehow managed to get an exemption from paying out any money!

I, unfortunately, have the experience of having worked at T4 as a senior operational manager for BAA and know full well that much of the figures and data relating to security and customer service is falsified!!!!!! I left after discovering that there were senior managers forging official documents. These managers know nothing about aviation, air travel or airports and are all from a retail background. The company does not give a damn about its customers or staff anymore and standards are continuing to slip for all airport users!

Whilst the general public continues to lack confidence in LHR and BAA, Britains airports are never going to improve and will continue to decline day by day. Britain's airports and BAA are the equivalent of what happened to our railways and British Rail.

I think I'm going to go on driving, rail and cruise holidays from now on!

EagleStar

[Woofrey]

Suzeman, Eaglestar

BAA DO pay service quality rebates at Heathrow and Gatwick - monthly. They are, of course, paid to the airlines (on a passengers carried basis ) - how could they possible pay the rebates to passengers individually ?

Only problem here is that the outbound baggage system is not included in the SQR scheme. This is known to both the CAA and Competition Commision, who made the final decision regarding what's in and what's out.

For reference the SQR scheme includes availability of stands, airbridges, pier service, FEGP, escalators, lifts, pax conveyors, security queuing, arrivals reclaim, cleanliness, flight information, wayfinding and departure lounge seat availability.

[EagleStar]

and fraudulent most of the figures are... Especially for security queue wait times!

[radeng]

>For reference the SQR scheme includes availability of stands, airbridges, pier service, FEGP, escalators, lifts, pax conveyors, security queuing, arrivals reclaim, cleanliness, flight information, wayfinding and departure lounge seat availability.<

Then either BAA must be paying through the nose or the required standards are so low that they are meaningless. Meantime, the poor passengers are being swindled by having to pay for services they don't get. Anywhere else, this would lead to criminal charges.....Why should I have to pay to stand in line for 10 minutes because the Xray operator in T4 gets up and walks away and management/supervision is so useless and inadequate that they allow the queue to be stood there, not moving, for 10 minutes?

[Woofrey]

Radeng - There are some shortcomings to the scheme in my view, such as the weighting and amount payable being about the same for long security queues as it is for stand availability, airbridges and pier service.

The other issues are that there is a maximum annual amount at risk, and the number of times the operator can fail is also capped, i.e. if the maximum amount payable for failing to provide a certain standard on a particular measure is reached in 7 months, then failure to reach the standard on any of the remaining 5 months incurs no financial penalty whatsoever, so not much of an incentive there ! ( only reputational and that seems not to bother too many people, and is shot anyway ! ).

The other point is that there are specific times in the day when the service standards apply, these tend to be the peak times, and according to the CAA document I have (May 2003) covering the current 5 year period ending March 2008, for T4 this would be "security waiting time to be less than 10 minutes on at least 95% of occasions checked" and the "core time periods over which performance shall be measured are 09:00 - 11:00 and 19:00 - 21:00".

You're all clever enough to draw some conclusions from that.......

[radeng]

Woofrey,

I'd say that there a a LOT of shortcomings in the scheme! There shouldn't be any cap on how much the operator has to pay, but more importantly, the people who eventually pay for the service they don't get (i.e. passengers) should get their money back. As it is, it seems basically a government sponsored swindle.

[theredbarron]

Arn't the monopolies commission (or some similar body) not looking at the BAA's monopoly position at the UK's major airports right now ? The sooner they break the monster up the better: LHR, LGW and STN all under seperate ownership and competing with each other. Up in my neck of the woods, GLA and EDI start competing as well. Situations like this at T4 wont help BAA's defence and so it might be worth the pain in the long run if this helps to dismember the dinosaur.

[Currock Base]

Blackace - I think your attitude to this issue is regretable. You're right nobody died. However you claim to well paid - great, that suggests you have a sense of professionalism. In the real world of software things are tested. In the real world of software you manage risk and don't let 2 different suppliers change 2 things at the same time. T5 systems have been tested for month or years in some cases. Why didn't the changes to T4 get some decent testing? Does this sound professional to you?


Were the changes being made early in readiness for the Skyteam people moving into T4? If so, I hope BA sue both the BAA and the suppliers for the consequential loss they've inflicted on BA and more importantly the customers. You'd all deserve it.

CB

[radeng]

If the problem was cased by poor engineering, then the engineer in charge should fall on his sword. Otherwise, he's being unethical. Yes, us engineers DO have a code of ethics, whcih is more than can apparently be said for BAA management.

Sir Thomas Bouch is a good example of what should happen.

[Musket90]

I think whoever operates LHR, BAA or not, would have or will continue to experience the same problems. All caused by squeezing too many flights into an airport that was full to capacity many years ago, so not surprising that with the slightest hitch, whether it be enhanced security, baggage breakdown, strong winds, fog etc etc there is just no flexibilty available to manage each situation with effective contingency plans without major disruption. Airlines see LHR as a big money maker and I'm sure put much pressure on BAA to get access, so it seems like first priority is to obtain runway slots and fingers crossed that the rest of the operation works, so in my view it's BAA, airlines, schedulers and Government all to blame for the mess.

[Trinity 09L]

I have noticed this comment elsewhere on pprune

"Whilst the A380 will mostly use 27L/09R, due to the proximity of the stands it will use. It can also use 27R.
Have a look at the A380 taxiway charts found in the UK AIP under LHR"

Is this correct? Could the A380 be stranded -unable to use 09L? :eek:

[point5]

A380 can use all 4 runways. If it lands on 09L must no come off earlier than A5 think it is. If lands 27R cannot vacate earlier than A10E.

[Skipness One Echo]

I rather wish it also said "BA flights get to land 09R" as they use Terminal 4.....I wish !! * sits ageing waiting to cross the active :p*

[Trinity 09L]

P5 - I understand it can use all runways to land, my "point" is, can it use 09L to depart - fully loaded, or has T5 restricted its ability (or other large a/c) to get to the start. If the future consultation on mixed mode and the removal of the Cranford agreement allow use of 09L for departures will it be able?:confused:

[jack_essex]

Just noticed on the BAA departures these two BA flights departing T5

22:20 BA9915 NEW YORK SCHEDULED Terminal five
23:40 BA9916 NEW YORK SCHEDULED Terminal five

Any ideas?

[point5]

Part of T5 trials. I believe BAW9174 from Cardiff is also part of the trial but will park as normal in T4.

Ta.

[A and C]

I am told that the provision for airline staff at terminal 5 is lacking to say the least.

Rumour has is that the enginnes have no wash rooms and have to go up into the passenger area to clean up................. that will go down well after a wheel and brake change!

The aircrew will have to check bags with the pax and recover the bags in baggage reclaim after a flight.

Only one staff rest area for all staff................ that will be interesting, the cabin crew having to mix with the baggage loaders!

H&S rules about walking on the ramp turning a short walk to an aircraft into a mile hike (or take the tool box and the brake unit to the aircraft via the passenger area)

I don't know how true this all is but it would seem that the only thing the BAA have got right is the shops, still the staff will be able to eat well at Gordon Ramsey's restaruant with the starters at about £40 it should be well within the budget.

Comments please from the people who will have to work in terminal 5

[londonmet]

A and C,

I have absolutely no idea as to whether it is true or not. Call me a cynic but I have very little faith in BAA and all things relating to huge projects in the country. I'm cringing at the thought of how the olympics will turn out...

Anyway not really of any help is it? Sorry. Looking forward to the replies though.

L Met

[bmi330boy]

True the staff areas are quite small but in reply to a couple of coments in ur post:

"The aircrew will have to check bags with the pax" - Not true, dedicated crew check in is located behind 1st class check in.


"Only one staff rest area for all staff" - There is only one (huge) staff canteen offering full meals.... however the CRC (crew report centre) has a branch of Cafe Riazza, a quiet lounge and a TV lounge. All for only flight/cabin crew (they are somewhat small tho).

[Hotel Mode]

Mostly untrue.

Yes Crew have to collect bags from baggage hall but thats standard practice worldwide.

I Can count 2 sets of staff toilets and showers on the apron level of T5a and 2 on arrivals level alone. 2 sets of locker and drying rooms airside on arrivals level. 2 rest rooms in t5a for ground staff and 1 for crew plus 1 in t5b. 2 landsides staff coffee shops, 1 airside staff coffee shop in t5b. 2 staff snack/sandwich bars airside in t5a. Plus 4 full meal canteens one in T5a landside, 1 in t5b plus one in EAA and SAA buildings.

[Il Duce]

How do you get the enginnes up to the passenger area in the first place?

[rasobey]

I'm still working out how you fit a wash room inside an enginne (presuming that is supposed to be engine).

Oh, engineers. Sorry :P

[Il Duce]

I hear that Rolls Royce are working on enginnes (or engines) that have tiny wash rooms fitted behind the compressor blades. This will mean that the engineers can save time but will also mean that they too have to be tiny.

[Seloco]

I was "privileged" to take part in a trial at T5 a couple of weeks ago, playing (along with 2000 others!) the part of a passenger departing, arriving and transferring through T5 throughout the day. The trial was professionally and realistically run, and as a frequent flyer it felt all too familiar.

I was however disappointed with the new terminal. It really is a very large (and noisy....) shed, and is missing that "wow" factor which the same architect (Richard Rogers) managed to achieve at Madrid's Barajas, for instance. Navigation through it is very much dependant on being able to follow the signage, which, although profuse, appears currently less than complete. My first "departure" was not helped by using a remote stand, so the supposedly enhanced check-in/security/gate procedure was somewhat spoiled by then being herded into the usual cattle truck for the journey to the plane!

I can only hope that the terminal's professed efficiency and mega-shopping experience is enough to recompense for the lack of architectural delight.

[darrylj]

from what i saw on my t5 course, your right there's kinda very little room for staff.

the only thing what made t5 shine was the vast amount of good shops & shopping one could possibly do.

i also hear the first day will be chaos for us @ cargo so call in sick !....:\:ouch:

[king surf]

Call in sick!!.You must be really proud to work for BA:ugh:

[BIGBATMAN]

From what i hear.

Staff wont have time to go to a rest area. all the staff will have little PDAs that their jobs get sent to, i know they are being used now however judging from what i hear by the time staff finsh one job they will be onto another, with less time to pop back for a drink than they do now if they having anytime at all.

Making BA get their moneys worth out of everyone.
Big

[Sallyann1234]

the only thing what made t5 shine was the vast amount of good shops & shopping one could possibly do.
It's supposed to be an airport terminal, not a ****ing shopping mall !!!

[londonmet]

Arrgh yes but is it run by BAA?

[tristar500]

Isnt life tough... :{

Iam sure that somewhere in the 'biggest greenhouse in Europe' there will be ample and adequite provisions for the staff (What, no subsidised catering?)

Nevermind. I have it on good authority that BA has spent approx £60 million on fixtures and furnishings for the executive and business lounges in T5 :ugh:

Willie, make sure you look after the right people first eh... :ok:

[pelagic]

I've been told that its not possible for staff travel standbys to get to the gates after flight close-out at check-in, due to the requirement to be at certain places within the terminal a minimum of so many minutes before departure. Has anybody here done a trial run based on being a standby passenger?

(Also, the same source says that the baggage conveyancy system has been trialled using empty suitcases, but now that properly weighted cases are being used, the system cannot physically cope once its running near to full capacity.)

[apaddyinuk]

Im not too bothered about the limited staff rest facilities....Because lets face it...all the cabin crew will be littered around Krispy Kreme adding to our robust figures!!!! :E

[tristar500]

My my... BAs magnificent new home.

Not big enough for BA - before its even finished, baggage issues, staff facility issues, crewing reporting time issues, containerised acft only, security issues... The list of 'niggles' goes on...

Who is in charge of this B-Class movie gone straight to DVD... Skyteam and Star Alliance must be jumping up and down like kids in a sweet shop.

What with recent massive fines for the 'illegal' fuel surcharges, pending pilot strike, Openskies (not the latest attempt by BA to play catch-up) starting and the issues over a third runway hitting the headlines, what is wee Willie going to do, and thats before the new A318 BA LCY-JFK service flops.

Certainly isnt a case of 'Luck of the Irish' - so far, and its only MARCH! Good on ya William :D

The only person certain to make money at Terible 5 is the window cleaner :ok:

[Railgun]

Did my walk around a while back. Staff travel will be a shambles, i will be making my way over to t1 to bmi to get home!

Apparently the ground staff and pushback rest rooms are in the bowels of the terminal with no windows to the outside world. We were never shown them though so i am not sure this is totally correct.

What we were shown was some swarovski crystal chandeliers in the exec lounges. I am sure the prem card holders will stare at for hours before getting on there 747 for a 13 hour flight with no avod and realise it was all money well spent!

[Hotel Mode]

(Also, the same source says that the baggage conveyancy system has been trialled using empty suitcases, but now that properly weighted cases are being used, the system cannot physically cope once its running near to full capacity.)

Not true all the cases i saw were all loaded with different weights.

Apparently the ground staff and pushback rest rooms are in the bowels of the terminal with no windows to the outside world. We were never shown them though so i am not sure this is totally correct.

Also untrue there are no staff rest rooms (as opposed to toilets) on apron level, although they are on the inside of the building so yes they have no windows.

Theres a lot of rubbish being talked about T5, mostly by those with a vested interest in its failiure. Whatever the teething troubles its better than T1 and T4 and their useless systems and infrastructure. If I were Skyteam and Star jumping up and down like kids in a sweet shop would not be my first response to the chaos they're moving into.

[SOTV]

Also untrue there are no staff rest rooms (as opposed to toilets) on apron level, although they are on the inside of the building so yes they have no windows.

The concept of rest should mean just that, rest. Sit down, eat, listen to radio, watch TV, read a book. Anything rather than watching your normal job. By observing that job being performed by other people you are not resting but comparing.

Handlers etc, are safety critical employees and need a stress free place to have their breaks in.

It really pisses me off when employers put more emphasis on exclusive lounges for the privileged few when it would cost a mere fraction of that expense to provide a quality environment for their staff to enjoy the few breaks they get.

Bit of a no brainer really.

[Joetom]

Did I hear that staff car park is to small?
.
May be all staff will get a smart car, re-line the car park and it will be ok!
.
April and May should be an interesting time at T5?

[apaddyinuk]

Well BA staff are more or less keeping their old car parks!!! Dont know about the BAA staff!

[Leezyjet]

Rumour also has it that the wrong concrete mix was used for the aprons at T5 so they are already breaking apart from being used by the current T3 airlines as remote stands for the last year or so.

:hmm:

[BWBriscoe]

With less than two weeks till T5 goes live, does anybody have info on the gate assignments (if there are any).

Will set flights go from T5A and others from T5B?

Cheers,

Ben

[TCX69]

What with it's first revenue flight tomorrow does anyone know what stands at LHR are equipped for the A380? I believe there is 4? Guessing 301 303C 305C and 307?

[Joffyh]

Yeah these are the stands, I believe some will be added to Terminal 5C.

[Suzeman]

Reported to be using Gate 307

Suzeman

[Gonzo]

T5a will be mainly short haul, the domestics going from the gates at the north end of T5a (501-505).

T5b gates are all Heavy gates, so predominantly long haul.

We've been told that the idea, until T5c opens in 2010ish, is that long haul outbounds will depart from pier gates from T5b, and many long haul inbounds will park at the as yet non-pier gates on what will be T5c, and inbound pax will get bussed to the terminal. The a/c will then be towed to a pier T5b gate for it's next sector.

[22/04]

Why did we have to have a showdown on finger printing- Was it a "promo stunt" for T5?

As an older gent I despair as to why somethng like this couldn't be discussed and thought through in advance.

I feat that today there is no in advance- only here and now. is the fuure more scary than in let's say 1975

[Railgun]

Less than 24 hours till the biggest London let down this side of the olympic games.....

[BOEING777X]

Well, Terminal 5 is alive (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/03/27/terminal-5-is-alive/) and is in the throes of being put through its paces...wonder how long it'll be before baggage goes missing! :eek:

[Skipness One Echo]

Looking at BAA site, all BA departures are running one hour plus late this morning, much like yesterday when they ran out of staff to get the 767 that was taking me to Dusseldorf from maintenance.

[PPRuNeUser0162]

Not too long Boeing777X...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7314816.stm :E:D:{:ugh:

[derekvader]

Well that's one way to make sure no baggage goes missing, just to refuse it altogether :ugh: :eek:

[Ph1l1pncl]

Does anyone know why the airbridges in Terminal 5 some are glass and the others got HSBC down the side? It just doesnt look right.

And for the domestic flights into terminal 5 is they a seprate area like they was in terminal 1 or can the domestic passengers mingle with the international passengers.

Thanks

[GraemeEUK]

Domestic and international are totally mixed. Flew out of T5 as a domestic passenger today, what a difference to the horrible domestic T1 departures area!

[derekvader]

Well a large number of the airbridges are of incredible length (I'm sure the day I was there they said that two of them were the longest in the world) so maybe that affects why some of them are metal and some glass-sided. Perhaps to do with the length of span of some of them across roads and mini-roundabouts etc.

[apaddyinuk]

Actually, none of the airbridges have glass....but the passage ways that lead towards the Airbridges do! LOL!

[01475]

Nooooo ! :( Why oh why oh why is it that Heathrow just can't ever seem to manage to do luggage?

[HZ123]

MA; You are wrong BAA will not relinguish their hold on the building. The T5 steering group in 1998 put forward the scheme for BA to manage own and operate everything at T5, facilities & security. At first BAA were all for it but then changed their mind as they wished to keep control. Such reasons were what might happen in the event of BA going bust and if any of the companies BA used going to the wall.

On the other issues of unionisation sadly you are correct as the whole company is riddled with it from the Captains to the loaders. everything involves the question 'How much'. Many of the movers and shakers involved in the project from the outset were consultants who knew nothing whatsoever about airports and airlines and these were assisted by BA / BAA staff that did not have jobs but could not be fired.

My thread from March 20th
FIASCO @ 5 STARTS ON THE NIGHT OF THE 26TH WITH THE RUNWAY BEING CLOSED AND TURNED INTO A ROAD FOR THE EQUIPMENT TO BE DRIVEN ACROSS FROM 4 BY THE MOST DIRECT ROUTE. mANY OF THE mON -fRI STAFF ARE VOLUNTEERING.

If I knew it was likely to be a fiasco why didn't the BA / BAA and HAL management know it.

[WHBM]

When you go to checkout at the supermarket.....Supermarket operations are much smaller than airports and can afford to provide help for some people (mums with kids and the elderly), but what if every single customer wanted help? They couldn't cope.
You've obviously never been to a supermarket in ther USA (and many other countries) where every single shopper has their bags packed by supermarket staff.

And this is a microcosm of the management structure at Heathrow. Well paid people going round saying things can't be done, whereas the real truth is they can, but those in management are thick, don't understand, don't know how to do things, are mesmerised by compliance with budgets, and a series of other stupidities.

I think the Minister of Transport should call for Willie Walsh's resignation if things are not running very well indeed by the end of today. And do you know what we would see if such a demand were made, it would happen. It's possible.

[beamender99]

The BBC is showing on the map below some significant LHR expansion west of T5 and beyond the M25.

I was totally unaware of this and I have missed the "Heathrow Expansion Road Shows".
Can anyone enlighten me with details or point me to some web sources.
I guess it is zero newsworthy as it has a low population unlike north of the airport.



http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7107693.stm?dynamic_vote=ON#vote_heathrow_expansion

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44509000/gif/_44509901_heathrow_exp_new_416.gif
Source: Department for Transport

[unk tantor]

That's the landfill site for the lost luggage.

[Hand Solo]

Maybe car parking? Can't get an aircraft there and the multi-storey car park prevents T5 expanding westwards.:confused:

[CaptJ]

another little clue as to the intentions is the layout of the trains tracks below T5. The tube station is designed as a through station, not a terminus.It is clearly intended that the Piccadilly line is to extend west of T5.

Car Parking, Car Hire, Hotels, all to be displaced by the development required for the third runway.

[nickmo]

If you missed the Roadshows for the Consultation (now closed) the major docs for the discussion are at the DfT site:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/closed/heathrowconsultation/technicalreports/runway3study.pdf

and the related tech docs at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/closed/heathrowconsultation/technicalreports/

The docs cover the technical aspects of the need for expansion - not what happens to passengers......

Hope this of some interest.

[derekvader]

Terminal 7, when they decide to close T5 and pretend it never happened :E

another little clue as to the intentions is the layout of the trains tracks below T5. The tube station is designed as a through station, not a terminus.It is clearly intended that the Piccadilly line is to extend west of T5.

That may be a design possibility but it's more likely that the reason the tunnels run on past the tube station platforms is (1) because that's what "tube building law" says must be built - new dead-end tunnel platforms haven't been allowed since the Moorgate tube disaster of 1975; (2) to provide space beyond the platforms to store a couple of trains at night or perhaps but broken trains during the day until the night when it's easier to go fetch them.

[Currock Base]

The station is designed for expansion. There are 6 platforms with 4 in use and 2 reserved for future through rail. There is an idea to link this to the line which goes to Reading from Waterloo. It is known as project AirTrack. The idea gives several possibilities - Paddington to Reading via T5 (possibly onto Bristol etc.), Waterloo to Reading via T5, Woking etc. T5 to the South West.

[electriclightfoot]

This is top secret news and cannot go any further....:oh:

Heathrow Expansion Plans

Terminal 6 has already been built......I kid you not!

They are disguising it as Wembley Stadium but trust me their intentions are indecent. Some conspiracy theorists (I'm not one) even go as far as stating that the Millenium Dome was built as Terminal 7 for their eastwards expansion.

As for Wembley, I'm really concerned for the England team as they'll feel orphaned again. They might end up having to play their matches at the Fremirates Stadium (French-Emirates) in norf london......:eek:

We must act quickly!


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42722000/jpg/_42722513_wembley_aerial_pa_416.jpg



http://wwp.greenwich2000.com/millennium/images/millennium-dome/millennium-dome-aerial-view.jpg


Sorry, I've been on the vino tonight and couldn't resist some humour.....

[Panman]

Sorry, I've been on the vino tonight and couldn't resist some humour.....

And we are all eagerly awaiting some.

[Viewedfromabove]

When T5 was first being mooted about 20 years ago I recall seeing an unofficial drawing indicating further possible LHR terminals 6, 7 & 8 exteding westward from T5. T8 was roughly located on the site of a well-known medieval castle that will become surplus once the present tenant passes on.

[The SSK]

'Heathrow West' is what Ryanair plan to call White Waltham when they introduce service there.

[BOU_PAX]

"'Heathrow West' is what Ryanair plan to call White Waltham when they introduce service there."

Nah, Heathrow West is the new base at Bournemouth which opens on Thursday..... :ok:

[Viewedfromabove]

No - far to close and convenient for Ryanair - it would have to be Newquay, or Penzance.

[Skipness One Echo]

Saw that the BA B757s are now using the old domestic stands on the old Novemebers and Alpha stands. I guess there are no domestic flights now are BA using the old Shuttle lounge on pier 4? Are BMI still using the bombsite that is Pier 3 or have they got the Europier.

I guess United and Air New Zealand will be getting the newer facilities on there?

[EI-BUD]

Whats happening at LHR today, there are some Cancelled flights, Belfast, Dublin and Belfast City have 1 each. Is it weather? I am a bit out of touch today!!

[sealink]

a little bit of snow and slots all over the place. ei bfs cancelled ealier, bmi hit with delays to bhd.

[42ongo]

yes we could not expect the chaps to manage the bagagge problems at T5
and deal with the snow at the same time could we ?

[green granite]

From today's Sunday Times

PLANS for a third runway at Heathrow, the world’s busiest international airport, flout safety guidelines by placing a proposed crash-landing zone on top of a motorway junction.

If true doesn't seen very sensible.

Full article here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3736233.ece

[roll_over]

I'm not educated on this, but with something as controversial as a third runway it would seem sensible to give the opposition as little ammo as possible.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It also said that documents released under FoI Act had revealed the possible conflict with Northolt traffic. Wow! They'll be using FoI next to find out if it's intended that aeroplanes should use the new runway.

[green granite]

I think HEATHROW DIRECTOR that that is a way of suggesting that the government is being selective in what it publishes in the consultation document, rather that what you are implying. :)

[A4]

The thing that strikes me about the article is the proposed cost. How the hell can it cost £12.7 BILLION to build a new runway + other bits? I know they've got to compulsory purchase some property/land but £12,700,000,000 :eek::eek: is totally preposterous! A strip of concrete for heavens sake! How long to get back the return on investment? :confused::confused:

A4

[Witraz]

A4,
This is Britain in the modern ages. £10 Billion will have been set aside for political correctness to cover things like making sure all illegal immigrants get a fair hearing and are satisfied that the new runway will be to the required standard should they fail in their application and be required to depart off of it. Me an old cynic……..never :ugh:

[antic81]

That is of course if they remain on budget...
And when they do open up for business they will probably lose all the aircraft and cancel half the flights...and Heathrow will come to a grinding halt for a month while they try to figure out what to do next...:}

[Spitoon]

Interesting read. I particularly liked the document in which the CAA outlines its concerns - there appears to be at least one page missing (great for conspiracy theorists).

[green granite]

I wonder how many people in the industry really think that perhaps it might be better to start dusting off the plans for an airport on the Maplin Sands in the Thames Estuary, but can't really say so.

[Avman]

Why a 3rd runway? With the rising cost of oil, Heathrow will soon not even have enough traffic for two runways. Visions of a ghost airport with tumble weed blowing around :E

:D I like it witraz.

[Doors to Automatic]

The last time I looked it cost about £100,000 per meter to build a runway. By my calculations a new runway would therefore cost between £200 and £400 million depending on its length.

Double this for taxiways etc and you could just about get to £1bn for a 4000m runway. How on earth does this one (which I understand is only 2200m) cost £12.7 bn ??? :confused:

(Thats around £2m per meter!!!)

[A4]

You're correct GG. LHR is simply not sustainable. It's already at breaking point, T5 is a disaster and adding another runway will overload the surrounding infrastructure to breaking point. Coupled with the fact that it's in completely the wrong location necessitating approaches over one of the most densely populated cities in the world only adds weight to the arguement to cease any further expansion at LHR and build in the Thames estuary. Why "waste" £12.7 billion on a compromised expansion of LHR?

If they did build in the Thames estuary, then that would negate any requirement to expand STN and all the billboards and endless moaning letters in my local paper would also cease - and my Council Tax wouldn't be funding the Stop Stansted Expansion campaign so the council could then fill in all the potholes in my town. It's a WIN, WIN, WIN situation!

A4

[Flying Grasshopper]

£12.7 BILLION...................it is simple, cost of runway £2.7 BILLION, cost of lawyers and barristers for public inquiry £10.0 BILLION.

[HeathrowAirport]

Adding a third Runway would not Cripple the Infastructure it would make it more relaxed.

Yes there would be major airpspace changes LIKE ANY OTHER AIRPORT that is new or runway added on.

New SIDS, STARS, New TWR and GND Movement frequencies and maybe APP but i think personally the residences get 11:40z-04:20Z with no traffic just late buggers coming in, Like Emirates from Dubai lol.

So instead of a third runway, the option is stuff HACAN and run 24hours ops or the best option is to have 3 Runways and cut that time down and give more sleeping hours.

Up to them residences and tree hugging muppets.

Regards,

Rob

[Backoffice]

I wonder how many people in the industry really think that perhaps it might be better to start dusting off the plans for an airport on the Maplin Sands in the Thames Estuary, but can't really say so.
Today 11:25

:confused:Why didn't we do that then Nigel ?

:8Because of a rare snail sir.

:ooh:Oh of course, wild life, far more important than those plebs in Sibson.

[A4]

Heathrow, I wasn't talking about the SID/STAR infrastructure, I was talking about the M25/M4/A4 etc etc. How anyone can stand operating shorthaul out of LHR amazes me. Delayed in the air, on the ground for stands,to the car park and then the commute............ insane!!!!!!!!!!

A4

[llondel]

How about a high-speed, dedicated rail link between Heathrow and Stansted? Then you could put the runways at Stansted and reach your connecting flight via a connecting train.

In order not to diminish the scheme's appeal, the crash zone could be projected to be junction 8 of the M11.

[batninth]

I do wonder if there is a measure of positioning this to force the Thames Estuary plan but make it "Let them think they came up with it themselves".

First we have the decision to build the 3rd runway with the compulsary purchase around Sibson. Then, ooops, we find that the noise & pollution estimates have been understated. Next we find, ooops, the cost is a whopping £13bn+. Now we find, ooops again, that they forgot to state that a crash zone was right over a major motorway insection.

So now Joe Public may well be starting to think that there may be merit in a wholly new airport. "Oh alright then, if that's what you want..."

Or am I giving our leaders more credit than they deserve?

[flatfour]

I would be highly sceptical about the Times article. I read somewhere that they have the highest number of bought-in (some say un-checked) stories of all the broadsheets. Certainly an estuary airport is the answer but Parliaments are only for five years so there are all sorts of stumbling blocks.

[old,not bold]

Once again, we should remember that all the reasons why a 3rd runway at LHR would not be feasible environmentally or financially were brought out during the consultation leading upto the White Paper called The Future of Air Transport, produced by the Department for Transport (Alistair Darling in charge) in 2003.

Public Safety Zones, pollution levels etc were all cited as problems that would be nearly impossible to overcome.

Notwithstanding, the determination of the Department and its supine Secretary of State (A. Darling) to give BAA what it wanted, regardless of the interests of the country or indeed the facts, led to the infamous conclusion that each BAA airport round London should have a new runway; a conclusion that could have been written on a fag packet before £100m was spent on consultants.

The placement of around 26 BAA staff in the Department to "assist" with the evaluation of other proposals meant that it came as no surprise that these were all kicked into touch.

Since then BAA has been sold to a bunch of Spaniards who had to borrow heavily to finance the purchase; a debt which is now encumbering the business.

The safety zone issue is only one; the White Paper reminds us that thereare mandatory EU limits for levels of pollutants in the air, irrespective of the source. In supporting development of a new runway at Heathrow, it specified that this support was "provided that stringent environmental limits can be met".


Unfortunately, they cannot be if a new runway is built with the stated increases in ATMs and passenger movements. The ATMs generate pollution from aircraft, and the passenger movements generate pollution from surface transport. The increase in pollution from both these sources would put the air around Heathrow far above the EU limits.

So while the Department said what BAA wanted it to say, it covered its ass by adding the proviso "provided that stringent environmental limits can be met", knowing full well that they can't be. Both they and the BAA hoped that when they said, 3 or 4 years later, that the runway should go ahead this little caveat to the Government's support would be forgotten.

Mind you, one solution under discussion at that time was to control the surface transport emissions by tunnelling the M4 from Chiswick to Reading, and possible quite a long stretch of the M25 as well. Doing so would allow the 3rd runway to go ahead, and probably wouldn't cost much more than £12.5bn; the reason that it was rightly deemed to be an absurd solution at the time.

Of course £12.5bn is a ridiculous figure as an investment in a third runway.

But, hold on, tunnelling the M4 and M25 as suggested would solve the PSZ issue, now wouldn't it! In a Government that is clearly incapable of even basic financial arithmetic (Northern Rock?) crazier things have happened.

[PAXboy]

Thames Estuary did not proceed for the simple reason that not enough pax live that side of London and all the ground routes lead neatly into EGLL, due to history.

Many pax come from the central and southern part of the UK, the Shires of: Oxford, Warwick, Buckingham, Hertford, Berk and Hamp, as well as Surrey and Sussex. Whilst many Londoners could cheerfully go East or West to get to the main airport, it is all the rest that cannot. If Thames Estuary was built, you will still need a field somewhere to the west of the capital. Airlines would not run flights from two airports and the problem would not be solved.

Further, property (both domestic and business) has been built and priced around EGLL, West London and the M4 corridor for 50 years. If you cut the traffic of the airport in half, you would remove profits and investment from millions of people and companies. No politician is going to do that.

LCY took care of much of the European commuter problem for the City and has done well for many locals in Essex and Kent too.

So ... expand EGLL or leave it the same? Personally, I agree with the view that they have missed the boat (pun intended) and the peak of air travel will be over. Keeping an artificial cap on EGLL expansion makes it more profitable than a larger site operating at less than capacity. BAA will find that they might encounter the law of diminishing returns. The 3rd might be needed but it is not required.

[derbyshire]

If the required approach and departure angles are anything like those shown in the Sunday Times graphic, count me out!

[green granite]

Thames Estuary did not proceed for the simple reason that not enough pax live that side of London and all the ground routes lead neatly into EGLL, due to history.

The minority report from the Roskill commitee opened with the statement that made that very point and recommended that Cubblinton should be the site, not the Maplin sands, for the 3rd London airport. However I have a feeling that nowadays Maplin is about the only place that would stand any chance of
being acceptable, and of course would have the major advantage that it couldn't be surrounded by houses.
Certainly a considerable amount of transport infrastructure would be required, but with maglev trains capable of reaching 300mph+ a suitable system could easily be designed that could make it viable.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

""The minority report from the Roskill commitee opened with the statement that made that very point and recommended that Cubblinton should be the site, not the Maplin sands, for the 3rd London airport. However I have a feeling that nowadays Maplin is about the only place that would stand any chance.""

I agree, but Cublington was thrown out on environmental grounds and popular opposition even 35 years ago - remember "no wings at Wing" ? It was then that Maplin (ne Foulness) was reconsidered (it had been one of the three options under Roskill). Maplin was dropped due to the mid-1970s economic crisis, and so we then went with expanding LHR, LGW and later STN.

[windytoo]

The BAA would prefer the 3rd runway to be built at Bluewater as their desired infrastructure is already in place.

[Doc Strangebrew]

If...or maybe when....the third runway gets built..far to much ego and face saving going on for it to be stopped methinks...then what will scupper any benefit... will be the tender loving intelligent handling by BAA...

If their oppo's in nefarious bizzynes BA are involved in any major way...like having it named summat like ' Willy's way' the fate is well and truly sealed...EGLL will never recover...they cannot even get a baggage system sorted...

12 & 'alf billion quid...

A few specialist hossy's or an education system that might not creak so much...but I suppose a bit of concrete slabbing with a few fancy lines drawn this way and that...is a tad more aesthetic to the average politico's eye...

Alternatively how many wars could be funded by our glorious leaders with it?...either a couple of minor skirmishes or a moderate sized spat I would wager...depends on how lucky they are...:=

Is a third runway needed?..probably...but they will screw it up somehow...'tis wot they do'....

[Scylla]

Forcing the Thames Estuary Airport plan? Nah - thye're just trying to encourage our nice shiny new second (third, fourth) runway proposal for Stansted.
Seems such a good option now.