High, Fast....What to do?

[fixa24]

Howdy all..

Say your in a slippery aircraft (like a mooney or something that hates going slow), barrelling into some strip. You stuff up the descent, or ATC leave you up. You're high, fast (above V landing gear extension) and battling...

So whats the best thing to do?

Slow to gear speed then throw it out, flaps down and dive for the deck?

or point it down and worry about slowing it when your lower?

Just interested in hearing other peoples opinions on this.
:ok:

[OpsNormal]

Don't be in such a hurry, just inform ATC that you "require" an orbit or two to regain profile. Simple as that.

[fixa24]

Thanks.
That's what i'd do. i was interested to hear what other peoples techniques (apart from orbits etc) in that situation would be..

[EngineOut]

you would be better off slowing down to gear and [first stage of] flap speed while you are level up high, get them both hanging out. The resulting lower ground speed will require a lesser rate of decent for the same profile OR the same rate of decent will give you a steeper profile whne compared with a fast/clean configuration. You also shouldn't have the problem of getting too fast, but of course that depends on the aircraft and the specific situation you are in at the time. Much easier to manage.

[maxgrad]

agree with Opsnormal. Don't increase your work load if there is no need. In some "slick " a/c you can cut the power and set up fast but it also depends on your experience and knowledge of the machine and it's handling qualities.
Better I think to do orbits or request track miles to regain your profile, then if something bad does happen you won't have to deal with high and fast as well.

[Runaway Gun]

Say "Going Round" on the R/T, whilst overshooting.

Take your time, and get it sorted.

...and learn how to make it better on your next flight.

[Bevan666]

G loading is a fun way to remove those extra few knots.

Can scare the punters in the back though!

Bevan..

[HI'er]

Say "Going Round" on the R/T, whilst overshooting.
Take your time, and get it sorted.That would be my option as well, Runaway :ok:
Whilst an orbit is one way of dealing with the situation, it can sometimes lead you into more "situations" - overbanking, high descent rates, rolling out misaligned with the runway because of improper correction for the wind component, conflict with other traffic.
A go around allows you to set yourself up in the position you should have been.

There is no disgrace in going around - it's a sign of good judgement and airmanship :ok:

[Meeb]

There is no disgrace in going around - it's a sign of good judgement and airmanship

Which is the result of poor judgment and airmanship in the first place...

Sheez.... :rolleyes:

[OzExpat]

I can't comment on ML because I've never flown in there - except in the days when it was EN. However, in SY, my experience has been that, when the traffic situation was tight, I knew that I'd be told, in advance, to expect "highest possible speed on approach and shortest possible landing"! :eek:

That was more than a bunch of years ago though so can't give you an up to date answer. :sad: However, with that sort of advance warning, I was able to plan for an approach that didn't need an orbit. The one thing I knew for sure was that, had I requested an orbit, I'd have been sent around... and become about number 20 in the landing sequence... :uhoh:

If you get enough advance warning and are very familiar with the aircraft type that you're flying, there's almost always a way to comply that doesn't involve an orbit - or damage to the engine. And, sometimes, it doesn't even frighten the pax! :E

[Highbypasss]

From my experience, definately DRAG first then drop the nose and loose the height, rather than the other way around.

............................................................ ...:cool: H

[HI'er]

Which is the result of poor judgment and airmanship in the first place... And THAT comment has got to go down as one of THE most ignorant, ill-informed, and naieve I think I have read!
With an attitude such as that, it's little wonder that some pilots attempt to push the envelope beyond their and/or the aircraft's capabilities, and end up D_E_A_D.

[Meeb]

Hi'er, calm down mate.... :p

You are right, there is no disgrace in "going around".

But you are at split purposes here, sure if someone is high and fast then it is a good call to throw away the approach and start again, that is "good judgement and airmanship", but to get into that position in the first place due to poor planning, cannot by any means be called "good judgement and airmanship".

Hope you see where I am coming from now, thats why I took issue with what you said.

Here is a question for you Hi'er... bloke takes off, in say a Warrior, for a 2 hour flight, runs out of fuel after 1 hour (not a tech reason), succesfully sticks it in a field... was this "good judgement and airmanship"...? See my point now? Big picture stuff!

Too many people do not adhere to the 6 P's.... ;)

(Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance).... :p

[HI'er]

Arriving high and fast on final approach can be caused by any number of factors - the least of which being the pic's "good judgement and airmanship".

You are changing horses in mid stream, by trying to compare someone who flight plans inadequately with a pilot caught high and fast during final approach.

If YOU have never gone around during your x number of hours flying, then I suggest to you that it was as a result of either (very) good luck, or poor airmanship on your part - for not recognising when you should have gone around!

[GOATRIDER]

Great to see these topics being discussed in the forums...just give yourself plenty of time and set up...if you need to go around then go around...G loading does work but I guess you've got to think of your punters. At least you're honest and in so being you will stay alive. well done.

[Mach.29]

What about the mother of all side slips, that'll get ya down!

[ITCZ]

Options if you are high and fast....

1. "Slow down, then go down"
Level off or reduce rate of descent, allow speed to bleed off. Add drag as the speed reduces below limits.

In most aeroplanes I have flown, the gear limit speeds are higher than any max flap speeds. So instead of getting the flap and gear out in the 'scheduled' sequence you have been trained, throw the draggy devices out as soon at the ASI tells you you can.

Then, as was pointed out above, you can descend at a greater angle (less forward speed, same rate of descent, for instance). And you are probably configured for landing, so less to worry about later.

2. Add track miles.
Orbit. Overfly. Join upwind. Get a clearance to fly through final and re-intercept from the other side.

Descending orbits might add track miles, but I personally like that idea the least. You are probably feeling under pressure, maybe a little embarrassed, and adding a descending 360 turn, requires you to keep a higher level of situational awareness. You also lose sight of the runway, and that is the picture that you are trying to correct.

3. Never continue into a situation that requires ALL of your skill.
If the solution you have in front of you will require all of your ability with none left over, discontinue. Always have a way out, always have a margin for yourself. Who says that your approach stuff up is the only thing that will go wrong for you today?

All you need is a dust devil, or someone to taxi out in front of you, a distracting radio call or passenger request.... you get the picture.

4. Go round.
Anybody that ribs you or criticises you for going round is an idiot. You shouldn't care a fig what an idiot thinks of you.

5. Ask "why?"
Ok, so you stuffed the approach. Ask yourself 'why?' Be honest. Did you have a plan? Was it well thought out, or were you 'winging it?' Did you stick to the plan? Be prepared to learn from it.

[gaunty]

ITCZ :ok: what else is there to be said.

[Wizofoz]

Which is the result of poor judgment and airmanship in the first place...

Meeb,

Got to jump in here firmly on HI'ers side. Above is a direct quote from you which suggests you consider ever finding yourself high and fast on approach is a sign of poor judgment. This is a VERY dangerous attitude to have both from your own point of view, but particularly if you are in a position to influence others. Let's say your a training Captain. If the guy you're training knows you will consider hes f:mad: d up if he has to go around, what's he going to do? Try like hell to get the thing on the ground!!

I've flown in Asia, where it is considered a loss of face to go-around, and seen some VERY ugly stuff to salvage bad approaches (even when it clearly easn't the pilots fault) and now fly in Europe, where it is simply impossible to plan a constant descent becaue of the ever changing ATC requirements.

It is inevitable that every now and then, whether your fault or not, the best thing is to simply say "I think we might have another go at that"- as a NORMAL procedure. Even the suggestion that one should feel they have shown bad judgement by having to go-around is a dangerous attitude which has led to too many meeting with the terrain at the far end of the airfield.

[Altimeters]

From my experience in the Mooney 201 with thorough knowledge of the aircraft it is possible to conduct the approach at high speed and some what lower the nose more than normal and then allowing it to slow down naturally with minimal power before extending gear and flap and reducing to a normal speed. However this only works with significant knowledge of the aircraft and a thorough understanding of the aircraft's capabilities.

Hope this helps!

[Meeb]

Wiz

Sorry mate but you are also not getting what I am saying.

There is nothing wrong per se with 'bad judgement', hell its not a hanging offence... :rolleyes: All of us show it at times in many different ways, but owning up to it seems harder for some....

If you stuff up a descent to the point where you have to go around, so be it, and it is of course good judgement to have made the decision to go around, but it does not cancel out the bad judgement in the first place! Think about it!

All I am saying is own up, and I think that is far from dangerous, in fact it is the safest outcome, an honest pilot... maybe a novelty to you, but thats my standpoint.

And if you think that a 'guy' will try to 'put it on the ground' because he thinks the trainer will be annoyed, come off it, surely you do not believe that! (Having not worked in Asia, lets leave out that location!)

PS For your information, I do not have a dangerous attitude to flying. very much the opposite, how you can even say such a thing based on a misunderstanding is beyond me, and I would never accuse anyone of such a thing on PPRuNe! You dissapoint me old bean... :(

[HI'er]

Meeb, good/bad judgement has NOTHING to do with the fact that sometimes, pilots find themselves in a situation - where, even using their finest skills - NECESSITATES a go around, because of OTHER factors.

Let's take a typical example of an airport with which I am familiar, and which those of you who have accumulated "significant time" can also identify.

The aforementioned airport has a roughly speaking East-West (09/27) alignment of its runway.
Invariably, the wind reported by ATIS, and from Tower, indicates that the surface wind is either a light easterly (indicating that R/W 09 is in use), or L & V.
R/W 09 is the preferred runway, due to high terrain on the 27 end.

But in actual fact, the winds down to about 200'agl are westerly, and frequently at 500' are pushing 15-20 knots + tailwind component (I know this, because I have the luxury of an FMC :O )
However, for the first timer (who is flying in with no previous "local" knowledge), it's a very easy catch.
He turns finals at around 1,000' expecting to chuck out the final flap - and maybe gear - and discovers that his ground speed has INCREASED.... that the runway is now rapidly disappearing beneath the nose of the aircraft.

This was NOT due to any "bad judgement" on his fault - UNLESS he tries to land off what has rapidly deteriorated into a "kamikaze" situation.

If a pilot elects to execute a go-around, then he deserves FULL marks for knowing his own capabilities, and for having the good sense to work within them.

It's the UNSAFE/DANGEROUS pilot who will try to "save the day" by using his "superior" skills - and ends up WISHING he'd had the good sense to go-around!

[Meeb]

Hi'er

This will be my last posting on this thread because I am pretty exasperated... :rolleyes:

The original post was about someone who stuffed up the approach, not as you are saying external factors! Of course you go around if the situation dictates... but I am talking about the original question, something you do not seem able to grasp.

I suggest you read this... Flight Safety Foundation (www.flightsafety.org/pdf/alar_guide.pdf)

I fully endorse everything in the article, so please, no more ranting... :rolleyes:

You need Adobe reader to read it.

[HI'er]

Item 9 Page 2 of your link,
"An approach that becomes unstabilised below 1,000 feet above airport elevation in IMC or 500 feet above airport elevation in VMC requires an immediate go-around".

I get the feeling you're way out of your depth here, Meeb.
A few hundred/thousand hours under your belt will likely sort you out :ok:

And just once more, for the record:-


There is NO disgrace, nor "lack of judgement", when a pilot executes a missed approach (go-around).
In fact, quite the opposite.
A go-around is often a hard call for a pilot to make - one that requires an immediate command decision to take CONTROL of the situation, instead of being suckered in to the belief that YOU have the superior ability to overcome the elements of Nature, the laws of aerodynamics and physics, and that inner gut instinct called Survival that is telling you to "Get the f@ck out of this impending disaster!".

[Meeb]

I get the feeling you're way out of your depth here, Meeb.

A few hundred/thousand hours under your belt will likely sort you out

Dont be so bloody patronising.... idiot :suspect:

You are so blooming thick all you can do is keep repeating yourself... Show me where I have said anything other than a go around is the right decision should the situation dicate? You seem not able to grasp that the sequence of events leading to the go around is what is being discussed.

Suggest you leave it mate... :rolleyes:

[HI'er]

"Show me where I have said anything other than a go around is the right decision should the situation dicate?"....Meeb
Okay - right here:-

November 26, 12:36

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no disgrace in going around - it's a sign of good judgement and airmanship
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To which Meeb responded, "Which is the result of poor judgment and airmanship in the first place...

Sheez...." :rolleyes:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

There is NO "poor judgement" nor (poor) "airmanship" involved ("in the first place"), if a pilot ends up hot and high, due to many and varied reasons.

End of story.

[Wizofoz]

I would never accuse anyone of such a thing on PPRuNe!

Which is the result of poor judgment and airmanship in the first place...

Your words Meeb- Exasperated by being "Misunderstood"?, then don't make inflamatory remarks to begin with!

As to what your actual point is, the best I can gleen is "Try not to get unstable in the first place". Brilliant! Why didn't we think of that??

Any pilot, private , professtional or otherwise does the best he can to achieve a good outcome. What is paramount is that all pilots realise that if, for whatever reason, they are not set up for a safe landing they go around without fear of recrimination and acusation from "armchair quarterbacks" such as yourself.

Would a pilot under your supervision be able to do that without being accused of "poor judgment and airmanship"?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

My vote's for the "get the aircraft dirty then drop the noise". If you really want to push it (assuming you'll break no clearances and you know where other traffic is / won't effect other traffic) actually zoom climb to get the speed back to get dirty quicker. Only thing trying to get an approach like that in is to watch your sink rate near the ground [although it helps if your aircraft tells you "sink rate" :O ] . As someone said, no shame in going around..

(as much as I enjoy joking "Real men don't go around" :p )

[Sunfish]

I respectfully suggest that not only is a go around always a normal option, it must also be practiced. Do you bother to do that Meebs?

I've tried the option of adding drag and reducing power to idle to "save" an approach, but if you do it in an Arrow or Tobago at 300 feet you can produce some pretty scary sink rates with nothing good to look forward to if the engine chooses that moment to quit.


By coincidence I was talking to a friend yesterday who walked away, with his entire family, from a C210 that he had just broken into five pieces at Mataranka.

He was caught by the 210's yaw after deciding to GO AROUND at 50 feet and selecting full power and went left into the trees.

His approach was stuffed up by decreasing headwind (as I understand it) and he realised at 50 feet that he was high and fast. He had recently bought the aircraft and guess what? The only manoevre he hadn't practiced was going around.

He had been flying Pipers for many years, and just got caught by the strength of Cessna's yaw.

I actually tell my passenger that if I stuff up the approach, we will be going back up for another try, and as a mug low time pilot, I do this frequently at "strange" airstrips.

[Wanikiba_pilot]

Request to join the circuit upwind....

Use the track miles to slow down, configure and make it look organised for the punters/pax. Gives you a chance to practise a circuit too. You are either over the destination or in the circuit...a safe, prudent place to be. ATC can easily deal with you as well in that situation (usually!).

Sometimes orbits can be a bit messy, make you even busier and to pax (and maybe the boss) they can look inefficient, and like something is not quite right.


WP

[Mark_Tuck]

Whats the best thing to do if you're way too high ??

Slightly off topic though :

Just ask anyone flying into downtown Port Moresby lately, with no ATC radar available. I recently witnessed 2 x F28's and one DHC8 overfly the aerodrome, unable to get profile descent from ATC due to a twin otter on long final !!!!

ATC - XXX can you make straight in RWY14L from there?

Aircraft - Uhh negative im 6000ft at 4DME

:rolleyes:

[takeonme]

Too easy.


Reef the throttles back to idle, dump all flap straight away and use your knees to push the controls as far forward as they'll go.

Works for me.

[pakeha-boy]

HI er ....your original post is right on!!!....sort of find it hard to understand why Meeb doesnt get the picture.....Its because of people like Meeb,people have to have a pilots licence...the day he cocks up an approach,visual or instument,I hope he remembers his own words :confused:

[DeBurcs]

Say you're in a slippery aircraft (like a mooney or something that hates going slowHahahaaa....

Nothing wrong with a go-around, unless your tight-fisted psychopathic GA boss is watching (like the bloke who runs the show in YPKG).

You should practice your go-around maneouvre, too. Even airline pilots screw it up now and then because it is hardly ever actually done, outside the sim.

[The Edge's Guitar]

Have to agree with Hi'er. Easiest option is to Go Around which funnily is the worst performed manouver pilots do. It also depends on what altitude your at. Higher ones easier to descend close to max IAS then do a flat deceleration to the appropriate speed but close to ground go for the orbit, extra track miles or a go around. Just not worth it otherwise:ok:

[pakeha-boy]

mate!! your right ...the go around is one of the most poorly executed manuvers,for obvious reasons...ie hardly ever practiced,and generally only done on type rides or checks....in the last year in the bus I have done 3,one for wx one not stabilized and the other for traffic ...

But there are also other manuvers we dont practice on a regular basis,...stalls ,steep turns etc(I,m talking larger A/C here).Bottom line here is to evaluate the situation,whether it be your doing or not and try to make the right decision....the superior pilot.......

[ITCZ]

Sunfish, good point. Its not just the C210 that can be a handful in a go around.

Go rounds 'on the line' in jets and turboprops are so rare, and lets admit it, a bit of a surprise sometimes, that quite often they are very badly handled in real life. In the sim they are smooth and practiced -- you are expecting them! I have been crew on three go rounds in a burner, and I humbly admit that they were poor relations to the well rehearsed, anticipated go rounds in sim checks. :horror:

The lesson -- expect the unexpected! Stable on final, have a quick review of how to go round if it all goes to worms.

Should take my own advice ;)

[Jenna Talia]

Sunfish,

I am rather surprised your friend was not shown the effects of yaw in a go-around situation with a C210. It was one of the first manouvres I had to display an adequate degree of competency at when I was first checked out on the type some years ago.

An extreme handful during the go-around, not only due to the yaw, but also the required physical push force to the yoke with full flap selected to stop the aircraft from pitching up.

In my view, it was the most important component of the check.

If he intends to purchase another C210 through insurance, I strongly suggest he attends a Cessna Pilots Association of Australia, Pilot Proficiency course that is held once a year. In the not too distant future, he and other owners may no choice to due to the direction taken by insurance companies. A very worthwhile course.

Apologies for being off topic.

[Sunfish]

No worries Jenna. He told me that he hadn't been shown or done a go around in a C210. I don't think he knew what a handful it could be (I don't either). He hasn't flown since the accident and is now thinking about buying a Chieftain, polishing it into mint condition and getting a professional to drive it for him.

[Lodown]

Cut power. Full back stick and full right rudder. Hold while the ground starts rotating rapidly. Plane comes down very fast in a short distance.

[Mr.Buzzy]

High... Fast.... Sounds great.... sit back and enjoy the view!

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