High, Fast....What to do?
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High, Fast....What to do?
Howdy all..
Say your in a slippery aircraft (like a mooney or something that hates going slow), barrelling into some strip. You stuff up the descent, or ATC leave you up. You're high, fast (above V landing gear extension) and battling...
So whats the best thing to do?
Slow to gear speed then throw it out, flaps down and dive for the deck?
or point it down and worry about slowing it when your lower?
Just interested in hearing other peoples opinions on this.
Say your in a slippery aircraft (like a mooney or something that hates going slow), barrelling into some strip. You stuff up the descent, or ATC leave you up. You're high, fast (above V landing gear extension) and battling...
So whats the best thing to do?
Slow to gear speed then throw it out, flaps down and dive for the deck?
or point it down and worry about slowing it when your lower?
Just interested in hearing other peoples opinions on this.
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you would be better off slowing down to gear and [first stage of] flap speed while you are level up high, get them both hanging out. The resulting lower ground speed will require a lesser rate of decent for the same profile OR the same rate of decent will give you a steeper profile whne compared with a fast/clean configuration. You also shouldn't have the problem of getting too fast, but of course that depends on the aircraft and the specific situation you are in at the time. Much easier to manage.
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agree with Opsnormal. Don't increase your work load if there is no need. In some "slick " a/c you can cut the power and set up fast but it also depends on your experience and knowledge of the machine and it's handling qualities.
Better I think to do orbits or request track miles to regain your profile, then if something bad does happen you won't have to deal with high and fast as well.
Better I think to do orbits or request track miles to regain your profile, then if something bad does happen you won't have to deal with high and fast as well.
Say "Going Round" on the R/T, whilst overshooting.
Take your time, and get it sorted.
...and learn how to make it better on your next flight.
Take your time, and get it sorted.
...and learn how to make it better on your next flight.
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Say "Going Round" on the R/T, whilst overshooting.
Take your time, and get it sorted.
Take your time, and get it sorted.
Whilst an orbit is one way of dealing with the situation, it can sometimes lead you into more "situations" - overbanking, high descent rates, rolling out misaligned with the runway because of improper correction for the wind component, conflict with other traffic.
A go around allows you to set yourself up in the position you should have been.
There is no disgrace in going around - it's a sign of good judgement and airmanship
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I can't comment on ML because I've never flown in there - except in the days when it was EN. However, in SY, my experience has been that, when the traffic situation was tight, I knew that I'd be told, in advance, to expect "highest possible speed on approach and shortest possible landing"! 
That was more than a bunch of years ago though so can't give you an up to date answer.
However, with that sort of advance warning, I was able to plan for an approach that didn't need an orbit. The one thing I knew for sure was that, had I requested an orbit, I'd have been sent around... and become about number 20 in the landing sequence... 
If you get enough advance warning and are very familiar with the aircraft type that you're flying, there's almost always a way to comply that doesn't involve an orbit - or damage to the engine. And, sometimes, it doesn't even frighten the pax!
That was more than a bunch of years ago though so can't give you an up to date answer.
However, with that sort of advance warning, I was able to plan for an approach that didn't need an orbit. The one thing I knew for sure was that, had I requested an orbit, I'd have been sent around... and become about number 20 in the landing sequence... If you get enough advance warning and are very familiar with the aircraft type that you're flying, there's almost always a way to comply that doesn't involve an orbit - or damage to the engine. And, sometimes, it doesn't even frighten the pax!
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From my experience, definately DRAG first then drop the nose and loose the height, rather than the other way around.
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Which is the result of poor judgment and airmanship in the first place...
With an attitude such as that, it's little wonder that some pilots attempt to push the envelope beyond their and/or the aircraft's capabilities, and end up D_E_A_D.
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Hi'er, calm down mate.... 
You are right, there is no disgrace in "going around".
But you are at split purposes here, sure if someone is high and fast then it is a good call to throw away the approach and start again, that is "good judgement and airmanship", but to get into that position in the first place due to poor planning, cannot by any means be called "good judgement and airmanship".
Hope you see where I am coming from now, thats why I took issue with what you said.
Here is a question for you Hi'er... bloke takes off, in say a Warrior, for a 2 hour flight, runs out of fuel after 1 hour (not a tech reason), succesfully sticks it in a field... was this "good judgement and airmanship"...? See my point now? Big picture stuff!
Too many people do not adhere to the 6 P's....
(Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance)....
You are right, there is no disgrace in "going around".
But you are at split purposes here, sure if someone is high and fast then it is a good call to throw away the approach and start again, that is "good judgement and airmanship", but to get into that position in the first place due to poor planning, cannot by any means be called "good judgement and airmanship".
Hope you see where I am coming from now, thats why I took issue with what you said.
Here is a question for you Hi'er... bloke takes off, in say a Warrior, for a 2 hour flight, runs out of fuel after 1 hour (not a tech reason), succesfully sticks it in a field... was this "good judgement and airmanship"...? See my point now? Big picture stuff!
Too many people do not adhere to the 6 P's....
(Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance)....
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Arriving high and fast on final approach can be caused by any number of factors - the least of which being the pic's "good judgement and airmanship".
You are changing horses in mid stream, by trying to compare someone who flight plans inadequately with a pilot caught high and fast during final approach.
If YOU have never gone around during your x number of hours flying, then I suggest to you that it was as a result of either (very) good luck, or poor airmanship on your part - for not recognising when you should have gone around!
You are changing horses in mid stream, by trying to compare someone who flight plans inadequately with a pilot caught high and fast during final approach.
If YOU have never gone around during your x number of hours flying, then I suggest to you that it was as a result of either (very) good luck, or poor airmanship on your part - for not recognising when you should have gone around!
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Great to see these topics being discussed in the forums...just give yourself plenty of time and set up...if you need to go around then go around...G loading does work but I guess you've got to think of your punters. At least you're honest and in so being you will stay alive. well done.
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Options if you are high and fast....
1. "Slow down, then go down"
Level off or reduce rate of descent, allow speed to bleed off. Add drag as the speed reduces below limits.
In most aeroplanes I have flown, the gear limit speeds are higher than any max flap speeds. So instead of getting the flap and gear out in the 'scheduled' sequence you have been trained, throw the draggy devices out as soon at the ASI tells you you can.
Then, as was pointed out above, you can descend at a greater angle (less forward speed, same rate of descent, for instance). And you are probably configured for landing, so less to worry about later.
2. Add track miles.
Orbit. Overfly. Join upwind. Get a clearance to fly through final and re-intercept from the other side.
Descending orbits might add track miles, but I personally like that idea the least. You are probably feeling under pressure, maybe a little embarrassed, and adding a descending 360 turn, requires you to keep a higher level of situational awareness. You also lose sight of the runway, and that is the picture that you are trying to correct.
3. Never continue into a situation that requires ALL of your skill.
If the solution you have in front of you will require all of your ability with none left over, discontinue. Always have a way out, always have a margin for yourself. Who says that your approach stuff up is the only thing that will go wrong for you today?
All you need is a dust devil, or someone to taxi out in front of you, a distracting radio call or passenger request.... you get the picture.
4. Go round.
Anybody that ribs you or criticises you for going round is an idiot. You shouldn't care a fig what an idiot thinks of you.
5. Ask "why?"
Ok, so you stuffed the approach. Ask yourself 'why?' Be honest. Did you have a plan? Was it well thought out, or were you 'winging it?' Did you stick to the plan? Be prepared to learn from it.
1. "Slow down, then go down"
Level off or reduce rate of descent, allow speed to bleed off. Add drag as the speed reduces below limits.
In most aeroplanes I have flown, the gear limit speeds are higher than any max flap speeds. So instead of getting the flap and gear out in the 'scheduled' sequence you have been trained, throw the draggy devices out as soon at the ASI tells you you can.
Then, as was pointed out above, you can descend at a greater angle (less forward speed, same rate of descent, for instance). And you are probably configured for landing, so less to worry about later.
2. Add track miles.
Orbit. Overfly. Join upwind. Get a clearance to fly through final and re-intercept from the other side.
Descending orbits might add track miles, but I personally like that idea the least. You are probably feeling under pressure, maybe a little embarrassed, and adding a descending 360 turn, requires you to keep a higher level of situational awareness. You also lose sight of the runway, and that is the picture that you are trying to correct.
3. Never continue into a situation that requires ALL of your skill.
If the solution you have in front of you will require all of your ability with none left over, discontinue. Always have a way out, always have a margin for yourself. Who says that your approach stuff up is the only thing that will go wrong for you today?
All you need is a dust devil, or someone to taxi out in front of you, a distracting radio call or passenger request.... you get the picture.
4. Go round.
Anybody that ribs you or criticises you for going round is an idiot. You shouldn't care a fig what an idiot thinks of you.
5. Ask "why?"
Ok, so you stuffed the approach. Ask yourself 'why?' Be honest. Did you have a plan? Was it well thought out, or were you 'winging it?' Did you stick to the plan? Be prepared to learn from it.
Which is the result of poor judgment and airmanship in the first place...
Got to jump in here firmly on HI'ers side. Above is a direct quote from you which suggests you consider ever finding yourself high and fast on approach is a sign of poor judgment. This is a VERY dangerous attitude to have both from your own point of view, but particularly if you are in a position to influence others. Let's say your a training Captain. If the guy you're training knows you will consider hes f
d up if he has to go around, what's he going to do? Try like hell to get the thing on the ground!!I've flown in Asia, where it is considered a loss of face to go-around, and seen some VERY ugly stuff to salvage bad approaches (even when it clearly easn't the pilots fault) and now fly in Europe, where it is simply impossible to plan a constant descent becaue of the ever changing ATC requirements.
It is inevitable that every now and then, whether your fault or not, the best thing is to simply say "I think we might have another go at that"- as a NORMAL procedure. Even the suggestion that one should feel they have shown bad judgement by having to go-around is a dangerous attitude which has led to too many meeting with the terrain at the far end of the airfield.
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From my experience in the Mooney 201 with thorough knowledge of the aircraft it is possible to conduct the approach at high speed and some what lower the nose more than normal and then allowing it to slow down naturally with minimal power before extending gear and flap and reducing to a normal speed. However this only works with significant knowledge of the aircraft and a thorough understanding of the aircraft's capabilities.
Hope this helps!
Hope this helps!