How often?

[Sans Anoraque]

Do you have students who, for whatever reason, are just incapable of going solo? (And presumably, your opinion of their abilities is not necessarily accepted by them!)

[unfazed]

Yes - Not very many but occasionaly there will be a candidate who is having problems, I have one at the moment.

You need to identify the source of the problem and then set out to verify that there is indeed a fundamental problem. Once you have satisfied yourself you should then get a colleague (preferably the CFI) to fly with the candidate and assess things in an open way to see if they can fix the problem.

Once you have consulted the CFI and are both in agreement then the candidate needs to be put in the picture (hopefully this will not be a bolt from the blue as you will have been communicating openly and honestly with the candidate all along so the training record should back up your decision).

If done sensitively then the candidate should accept your decision, I would not give up on someone until we have given it a fair bash !! e.g. 30 hours still unable to get around the circuit safely and land ?? let's not waste any more time and money.

If the candidate won't accept the decision that's OK but they have been told.

[Sans Anoraque]

Thanks to unfazed - but 119 views, only one reply. C'mon people give us the anecdotes!

[FlyingForFun]

I've had students who are very over-confident, and think they are ready for solo well before they are.

I generally find that regular in-flight correction and a serious de-briefing after the flight brings them back down to earth, and they realise that they still have quite a way to go. This isn't a technique which I would suggest for the majority of students, but it does seem to work for those who think they are ready for solo but aren't - in my experience, they generally seem to go away a little dispondant, and come back for the next lesson ready to learn. It's not usually too much longer before they are ready for solo.

That's not to say that I won't come across someone like you describe in the future.

FFF
---------------

[foxmoth]

I had one student who had got to over 40 hours when I got him, he had already been advised by previous instructors that he would not go solo and should give up but he wanted to continue because "i enjoy flying" - my recommendation then was that we forgot pounding the circuit and did other flying that he would enjoy and just finish each detail with 2 or 3 circuits, he thoroughly enjoyed his flying and finaly got solo at about 60 hours, eventually finishing his PPL.:ok:

[funfly]

I know a lady, not exactly young, who could not manage her solo at the 'usual' place and seemed to stick there. Her difficulty was only in the 'rounding out' and there were no problems with her general flying or circuit work. Change of flying school and they took the attitude of leaving it 'til later but continue with instruction. She has now completed most of the course including navigation work and is coming up to 80 hours, still hasn't gone solo (although this is now more weather related than her ability). Point is that she is a really good flyer and loves every minute of her flying. Theoretically she should have been 'dropped' a long time ago but in practice she is having a great time.
I am also aware of a very elderly man who will never get to fly on his own - and he knows it - but he still has his regular 'lessons'.
I learned with my own flying that you have to forget about targets, it's not a competition - it's about personal fulfillment and enjoyment.

[wonko the sane]

> e.g. 30 hours still unable to get around the circuit safely and land ??
> let's not waste any more time and money.

Interesting opinion.

I was one of those students who took more than 30 hours to first solo (haven't got my log book here, but it was somewhere between 35-45 hours). There were a few reasons, such as fragmented training (for financial reasons). I took a long time to start landing consistently. Also, as I discovered through later discussion with some of the instructors at the school, the instructor I spent my formative first 20 or so hours with was also a significant contributory factor - and my recollection is that my ability changed quite quickly when he left and I started with others (but let's forget all that for now).

Anyhow, I got through, got my license, I've done a nice bit of flying, I'm just about to go for some night training, .... I've had a few check flights where my flying has been generally comented on as being pretty good for a low hours PPL.

I think giving up on someone after 30 hours because you see it as a "Waste of time and money" is harsh. If people aren't natural pilots, do you think they they can never be trained to be good pilots?. Sure, it takes time and patience and, yes, money - but if that's alright with the student, surely it should be alright with the instructor.

Foxmouth: yes, getting out of the circuit bashing and actually doing some flying makes a big difference. It reminds you why you started flying in the first place, which after 20+ hours in a circuit you can soon forget.

[unfazed]

OK Let me clarify

What if I said 1000 hours of circuit bashing and still can't land. The number is not the important point, the point is that flying is definitely not for everybody. There are some (not many) who have very poor coordination, concentration, eyesight, motor skills or just cannot make a decision WHATEVER it is there are people out there who cannot safely fly an aircraft solo.

I am simply saying that if we have an assumption that nobody gets washed out then are we being realistic ? On the subject of naff instructors have a look at the failure rates for FI courses, same rules apply, there are some people who should not be qualified instructors because they haven't put the time in to gain experience and have simply paid for the rating.

[funfly]

unfased..what you say may be correct for those whose flight training is towards a career but for many it is a hobby and they do it, and pay for it, as a way of enjoying themselves.
As a skilled instructor (which I assume you are) are you too 'big' to allow yourself to give training to people who are not quick learners but are prepared to subsidise your earnings on condition that you give them the flight experience and training that they ask for? They are not doing it because you are forcing them, they are doing it because they are prepared to pay for the experience which, I assume indicates both their enjoyment of the sessons and their appreciation of their own limitations.
My previous point about the elderly gentleman who will never fly on his own but loves his regular lesson - would you refuse to take him up just because he will never go solo?

[cleggs]

> e.g. 30 hours still unable to get around the circuit safely and land ??

I was one of those. It took me 32 hours before going solo, nearly 100 hours to get ppl. I thought I was hopeless and wondered whether I was wasting my time and money. Just a slow learner I think because I perservered and got a CPL. When I spoke to the Chief Flying Instructor of my school about training to be an instructor I got a job offer on the spot, completed the training and now work as a flying instructor.

Some poeple take longer to pick things up than others but now I know not to write poeple off too early.

[unfazed]

Guys, I have thought many students of all ages (one lady of 70plus). I realise that students are all different and learn at different paces. No I am not too "big" to teach somebody who is going to take a lot of TLC.

What I am saying is that there are some people who just will not be able to do it for whatever reason (most likely a funadmental problem which may be medically related / NPPL medical standards are minimal).

99% of people will get with enough time, money and determination HOWEVER there are a very small number who won't pass muster and who would be bloody dangerous to themselves and others if let loose in an aircraft.

These people know themselves that they have a problem and will readily admit that if you are open and honest with them and have tried hard and exhausted all possible avenues. You guy's are obviously not in that category.

[FlyingForFun]

Hmm, very interesting discussion.

I think this thread has veered away from what Sans Anoraque was asking initially? If I understood him correctly, he was asking about students who thought they were far better than they actually were?(And presumably, your opinion of their abilities is not necessarily accepted by them)However, since we're now on the subject of people who are just slow learners, how about my ex-student? I would describe him as an older gentleman, but certainly not elderly, and very capable of going solo. His problem was that he would come along for a lesson every week or two. Often he would make progress, but he would also often go backwards. He used to get frustrated with himself because he could not see the progress when he did make progress, and was not sure what he needed to do to go solo.

I suggested that he was quite capable of aquiring the necessary skills, but he lacked continuity in his training, and that's why he hit a brick wall. I recommended that he take a couple of months off, and put aside all the money he would have spent on flying in that time. Then, he should come back to me and book two flights a day, for a full week, with the money he saved. I pretty much promised him that he would be solo by the end of the week.

Unfortunately, he decided not to take me up on my advice, and I haven't seen him for quite some time - all because he didn't have the self-belief that he was capable of soloing.

FFF
------------------

[A Sayers]

Two.
A gentleman who's father was head of 'secret police' for a north african state.
A young lady who was the perfect student, mind like Einstein, (home address in a palace), wonderful personality but she just could not fly.

Thats in about 3 thou instructing hours.

The first refused to accept the situation and always blamed it on the instructors (he got thru lots). Supprisingly he liked me even though I eventualy got him chopped - downwind, DME read 6, still heading on crosswind. That was after about 40 hours. He went on to train as an aircraft engineer. The lady was very realistic and worried about spending so much of her fathers money, she left voluntarily after about 18 hours.

[Genghis the Engineer]

An acquaintance of mine who runs a microlight school once had a student take 110 hours to pass their PPL, of which about 70 were to go solo.

A couple of hours after getting his licence, he bought his own aeroplane and had an EFATO taking-off from a strip. Then put it down, perfectly along the furrows of the ploughed field off the end of the runway without a scratch - an impressive piece of flying by any standard.

There's always hope!

G

[Sans Anoraque]

FFF - don't worry about it going slightly off topic. I'm finding it interesting reading as well.

In the same way no one ever admits to being a bad driver, I assumed there may well be some flying students (males mostly) who couldn't accept that they should never be allowed in charge of a flying machine. Or perhaps the 'cocoon' effect is stronger in cars?

[unfazed]

Flying For Fun

I don't think that the subject has veered off topic. Do you have students who, for whatever reason, are just incapable of going solo? pretty clear to me what the question is.

Your chap who didn't return may well have had the determination - just not the Dosh.

Yes it is true that given enough hours and training most people will achieve the required standard BUT.....some are unable to fly competently on their own for whatever reason. I am talking about getting people fit for SOLO flying, not babysitting those who just want to fly with other PPL's for whatever reason.

[funfly]

I am talking about getting people fit for SOLO flying, not babysitting those who just want to fly with other PPL's for whatever reason.

I think I would be looking for an instructor who was prepared to share his own wonder of flying with me, no matter how slow a learner I was.

I just checked my old logbook and I went solo after 13 hours but I was 63 at the time.:ok:
I do, however, know first hand about the frustrations of getting solo from the determination of my lovely wife - you tell her to stop her training and she say :mad:

[unfazed]

FUNFLY

, no matter how slow a learner I was.

I am not talking about slow learners, I am talking a minute minority who cannot fly solo for whatever reason. As a flying instructor I have a duty of care and will not sign somebody fit solo unless I am confident that they will not get killed, or kill somebody else.

If your determined wife turned up for a lesson I would be very pleased as I assume that her determination means that the homework has been completed, she is passing ground exams and has bothered to get a medical. She would definitely be fun to teach.

Lets look at the candidate from hell......No study "I am too busy and haven't got any free time", How are you this morning Bloggs? "absolutely knackered I had a late session at the pub and still have the shakes", did you plan a short nav trip "No", Bloggs the aircraft is right in front of your nose !!!!Oh dear we may need to review the circuit as you seem to think that it is a cross country flight whilst evading enemy fighters on our tail. Bloggs exits the aircraft yawning after an hour of very dangerous yaw and roll manouvers at 50 feet agl nowhere near the runway threshold.

I kid you not ! - And I am supposed to give this guy 100% Not unless I'm an aviation prostitute

[foxmoth]

I think the important thing in all these cases is that the student is advised about the situation, there are some schools that will just keep taking peoples money without saying anything and IMHO this is unethical. If you have explained the situation and the student wants to continue that is fine. This even applies to those who are nightmare students, they can either listen to what you say and sort it out, or ignore it in which case they just don't get to solo standard - and I quite agree that you no longer need to give 100% - if they don't want to why should you?:\

[funfly]

UNFAZED
Bit of a truce here 'cos I'm not getting at you and I understand fully where you are coming from.
My wife has had a problem landing - well not really landings just rounding out - try as she does she just cannot get it to 'click'! and of course the more people who tell her the 'trick' of rounding out the more difficult she finds it.
She has done all her exams and all her training up to XC but at 80 hours this little bit has eluded her.
Currently she is with the MSF and they have taken the attitude 'let's skip that bit and carry on with your training then come back to it later'. She has ended up a competent flyer and now feels ready to fly on her own, I think it is only the weather that is preventing this.
It would have been very easy for an instructor to have told her a long time ago to give up if the opinion was based only on her ability (or lack of it) to go solo.
I suppose you may consider that she is actually capable of 'flying' solo, what she can't crack is 'rounding out' in the landing phase :rolleyes:
I accept that your own observations on ability would be based on the student's overall flying ability and not just one part where something hasn't 'clicked'. In which case I agree that your reservations should be passed on and the student would then have to make his/her own descision about their continuation.
I do think, however, that if you are asked to give instruction to a person who is aware that they will never qualify then you should be happy to do this and not consider it a prostitution. You will achieve a 'result' not necessarily an exam pass but the result that the person concerned wanted. After all you are happy (I assume) to give 'air experiences' to many people who have no intention to study for a flying qualification

[unfazed]

Funfly

Tell your wife to forget flaring and simply approach at a very gentle ROD, when she gets to the numbers chop the power and carry out a carrier deck landing with no flare. Problem solved !

Seriously though - Some just cannot make it due to medical, attitude, lack of determination, etc etc etc

If somebody is happy to fly knowing that then not a problem. Might be a smarter idea for them to save some money and fly with a club PPL on a coat share basis. If money is no object then happy to keep going but need to be honest about the specific training "contract" and the "end game"

[jerezflyer]

I went solo at 15 hours - no problems and I was completely thrilled.......

[FullyFlapped]

Funfly,

What happens when your wife tries to flare ? I ask because that, for me, was a real problem also for a while ...

FF :ok:

[funfly]

She's cracked it - 10 circuits with perfect landings - 'bout bl**dy time
:ok:

[unfazed]

Funfly

Well done to your good lady !

[planemad_bk]

G'day guys!

Just while we're (sort of) on the topic, a good mate of mine is having a bit of trouble with his flying school in SA.
Shes feeling a bit de-motivated (nearing the end of her instructor training) and she told me that the CFI pulled her into a meeting with him and basically told her that theres been no progress as of late and to give up on the instructor stuff and go to the country to get some charter experience. Reason shes not motivated (anymore) is because after every lesson its just one booking (sometimes none) after another, they don't even bother to book in a flight test for her (before you say "thats because he wasn't ready"......they had never booked her a test from day one). Basically she doesn't see an end to her training, therefore not motivated, although determined to get it, to do well, as a result her standards dropped. As i said before CFI suggested that she go to the country to get charter and give up on instructor training. My question to you instructors is, can a flying school refuse to train a student to the required standard despite the student not wanting to give up?

[mad_jock]

Yep you can always refuse custom .

But as i was holding back with other people on this thread for saying its impossible to teach some people how to fly. I have heard similar comments with teaching people how to drive.

I have had the dubious ticket to check ride disabled pilots which i though was in the remit of FIE but isn't its through one bloke in the medical branch at gatwick. Who i might add through my dealings with him is a top bloke and and has only one thing in his mind which is get people flying.

I persoanlly have only missed with a student once which was more a personality clash and an end of career as an instructor thing than anything to do with the student.

I earned quite a bit of money dealing with the cast offs from other schools which couldn't be arsed with the addition effort working out what the student needed to be able to learn.

GAwd that Pink headset thread lasted most of my career as an instructor. And even though most of you though she was a dizzy bint that lady has had flights in machines i could only dream about . And the chaps taking her up have comment **** me she can handle the machine and hold an attitude. And thats anything up to areo's in Yaks.

the hard ones give the most job stisfaction.

MJ

BTw does anyone have the email for the CFI for the disabled flying club as i am missing instructing these days and i can' think of a nicer way to spend fanny about in aircraft unpayed

[FlyingForFun]

Planemad_bk,

Different schools work in different ways, obviously, but I have never had a test booked for me until I was ready for the test, and I try never to book tests for my students until they are ready for them.

Right now, my school has two students who are friends, neither of whom has flown a single-engined aircraft for over 7 years. Both of them had multi-engine IRs until around two years ago, and both of them are very good pilots. The only areas of their flying which need anything more than a quick brushing up are, not surprisingly, PFLs and VFR navigation. I say "not surprisingly", because almost all of their "recent" flying has been multi-engined IFR, hence no practice of PFLs nor of VFR nav.

Both of these students are very keen to get their renewal tests done asap, to the point that they are insisting we book their tests for dates by which they can not realistically expect to have reached the expected standard. In one case, if every lesson which the student has booked goes without any weather problems, and without having to repeat anything, he still will not have covered everything which we agreed needs to be covered before the date he has arranged for his test.

As an instructor, all I can do in this situation is continue to raise the matter with management to try to stop people from being able to book tests until they are ready (but management don't seem to care), or brief the examiner as to the lack of readiness of the student.

As a student, your friend has two choices. Either believe that she is not ready for her test yet, and trust her instructors to get her ready in however much time it takes. Or, if she believes her instructors are failing her (either because their technique isn't resulting in her making progress, or because they are deliberately extending the length of her course to make more money for themselves), she should find another school. But there is absolutely no point putting pressure on the school for her to take her test if she is not ready.

FFF
----------------

PS - After typing all this, a further thought occurs to me. If your friend is pushing for a test date, but the school think she is a long way off, maybe she genuinely doesn't understand what is required of her, or how far away from test standard she is? The skills required for being an instructor are not flying skills. I wonder if she thinks her flying is fine, and most probably it is - but the reason she is not ready for her test yet is because of her teaching skills not being up to scratch? If she doesn't realise this, she won't be in a position to fix it. Just a thought.....

[unfazed]

Planemad_bk

I might be totally wrong but based on the small bit of info I would hazard a guess and say that your friends instructor has identified a lack of flying experience, we often forget that experience gained flying from a to b in different seasons and on different types of flights is what is needed to pass along to students (i.e. not just technical skills). This is where we build up a mental database for good decision making.

Sounds like your friends instructor is saying go and get some real world experience first. Refreshing really as most others simply take the money and run.

[Whirlybird]

I too was one of "those" students. When doing my PPL(A), it took me 48 hours to go solo, 90 to get my PPL. At the time, I just thought I was a below average pilot, though it was hard for me to accept that. But I had loads of determination and enough money, and I hated the idea of giving up.

Now, however, 8 years later, with a PPL(A), CPL(H), FI(H) and around 750 hours TT, I have a clearer idea of why things happened as they did....

1) It's true that I wasn't a natural pilot. My first instructor told me early on that I'd make it as I had lots of determination, but it would take me more than the minimum hours. He wanted to make sure I had enough money - no problem with that, and he wasn't being critical.
2) My next instructor caused most of the problems. Young, inexperienced, and not very good with people, he'd be nice as anything one minute, quite abrasive the next. To cut a long story short, I annoyed him with my constant difficulties in learning to land, and he ended up completely destroying my confidence. I gritted my teeth and carried on, but that's not a good way to learn to fly.
3) I tried other instructors; the school by then realised there was problem, and to a certain extent a personality clash. For a while nothing seemed to work. I think I'd got into the habit of expecting not to be able to land - and I couldn't. The chap who eventually got me to solo standard was very quiet, very persistent, and non-critical, and that eventually worked for me. But the early destruction of my confidence affected the whole course, and way, way afterwards - possibly still affects me.
4) I now realise the basic problem. I have fairly poor depth and distance perception. Even after driving for years and years, I find overtaking hard, as I can't easily judge the distance of cars coming the other way. I know this, and compensate for it by being extra careful. If anyone had sorted out the problem in my flying early on - and it wouldn't have been that hard - I think it would have been overcome much, much earlier. I remember once being told was much too low on final, and saying I just couldn't tell. But no-one picked up on this as the basic problem; we just circuit-bashed, and extra hours didn't help.

I heard afterwards that various people thought I wouldn't make it. I've met other pilots who've been told the same thing; I can think of two are are now instructors. I think my experiences make me a better instructor; it's hard to appreciate problems if you found something easy. So nothing has been wasted, but it could have been made easier. And I've been told that most people to whom this sort of thing happens give up - what a waste!

Anyway, possibly there are people who can never go solo; I don't know. Perhaps they should be told this; I'm not sure. But I think you need to look at WHY they're having such difficulty, as that's the most important thing.

[funfly]

have got to report that today my lovely wife Pat went solo:ok:
over 80 hours, every lesson finished with a :D :D

[Whirlybird]

funfly,

Please congratulate Pat for me!

8 hours or 80; who cares - she's now a fellow aviator.:ok:

[unfazed]

I now realise the basic problem. I have fairly poor depth and distance perception. Even after driving for years and years, I find overtaking hard, as I can't easily judge the distance of cars coming the other way. I know this, and compensate for it by being extra careful.

Whirlybird - Just curious as to how you overcame this problem for flying helicopters ?

Or was your depth perception problem a "perceived" problem ? i.e. can't be a problem if you now hover and fly with no problem ???:confused:

[Whirlybird]

unfazed,

Practice, practice, more practice, and keep in practice! That's the only way. Which means I'm much better than I used to be.

For "ordinary" flying it's no big deal. But I suspect I still find it harder than a lot of people to land in tight confined areas, and to judge my height for autorotative landings...hard to say though, as we all find those sort of things difficult. As with anything, I bear it in mind, now I know where the difficulty lies. This meant I refused to fly into a difficult hotel landing site quite recently, in a type I hadn't flown for a while, in difficult wind conditions. Maybe someone else would have done it. But I know my capabilities and limitations, and safety comes first. I'm not the world's greatest helicopter pilot, and probably never will be, but that's not the point.

When I was doing my PPL(A) if someone had recognised the problem, or even told me to look for a specific difficulty, I think I could have recognised it and worked with it, and things would have been a little easier.

[pilotbear]

I have found with slow learners that it is often the strange syllabus with which we are supposed to stick to that causes sticking points. Some people learn better in a different order of things. For example, there is the serious lack of rudder usage in the UK, and I believe that is down to the lateness in to which it is introduced.
If someone has learned in a tail dragger then they have had to learn it earlier and usually they are better handling pilots when it comes to CPL.


I teach right from trial lesson that the throttle never moves without a rudder input and the control wheel/ stick never moves without a rudder input. In that way they don't know that there is an option.
Given that directive from the start it is just a matter of finesse as the training progresses.

I have had 'impossible students' but they all seem to get it eventually. I also find a good method is to get the student to tell or teach me out loud what they are doing as they are doing it (after I have shown them, of course)...then I know whether they have understood it, rather than me repeating or sitting in silence

Find out what the person does or is interested in then change the teaching method to use analagies from their hobby or job.


:ok: