What are we doing wrong?

[flapsforty]

Course mates and I greatly enjoying the ups and downs in the new Senior Purser job but are in wholehearted and solid agreement that the biggest challenge bar none is how to get along with long haul Captains in such a way as not to impinge on their fragile LH Egos while at the same time not having to feel like a cheap crack-whores after yet another self debasing visit to the cockpit. :sad: :sad:

What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft? :confused:

Not having had to deal with them in the decision making process as an FA, this phenomenon had never been on my radar.
I am entirely aware of and happy with the chain of command. I know all the rules and regs inside out. I wouldn't dream of letting my FAs treat pax with anything less than total service mindedness. I make sure that the FAs check the cockpit every 30 minutes and look after the pilots properly. I take great pains to always ask the pilots if they need anything every time I visit. I keep them informed about what's happening in the cabin so they are not faced with unexpected problems that need instant deciding. I never write something in the Cabin Maintenance Log that is part of the MEL and should go into the AML instead. I respect the captain's authority on and off the aircraft and I take great pains to be pleasant, diplomatic and suitably humble.
Yet some captains STILL lecture us on all of the above.
If the captain is the manager of the flight, the company should bl**dy well teach them some managerial skills!!
After only 5 trips in my new role, already the interaction with these guys is what I dread most.


There must be some other way of dealing with men like this. A way that keeps the atmosphere between the front and the back pleasant and cooperative while not requiring me to quietly sit there like a brainless smiling bimbo taking their humiliating lectures as if it were manna from heaven.

Good Morning Ladies and Gentlemen, my name is Flaps and I'm the Senior Purser on this flight. On behalf of Captain LordoftheSkies welcome aboard. We are here to make your flight as enjoyable as possible but I regret to inform you that my time will be largely spent on keeping the Grizzly in the left hand seat fed watered and appeased enough to keep him off the CC's backs so they can get on with looking after you passengers to the best of their ability. :uhoh: :mad: :* :ooh:

Advice & suggestions gratefully accepted.

[Caudillo]

What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft?

Absolutely nothing. Although perhaps such an attitude towards them may have some small effect..

[flapsforty]

Hey Caudillo thanks for posting on this. I understand what you mean, but it is not relevant here.
All of us are very recently ex-short haul. We've spent 5 years on the 737 where we have had very pleasant working relationships with our captains.

We expected many things to be difficult in our new jobs, but that it would be the Captains who would be our biggest challenges never crossed our minds.

So there was no negative attitude that could have provoked this.

[Micky]

hi flaps

just wondering, I do not work for an airline so only here say...but I know from a friend of mine who is a dispatcher that told me that as they got a new a/c a few years ago everybody was irritable and aggressiv to each other...:(
but after about a years time things went back to normal.
Everybody was used to the new operation, and so people started to trust each others abbilities again.
Mayby if you all new to this type of operation everybody wants to do it right, and in that does not realise that they are putting you down.

well I hope you can sort it!


Bye micky

[xetroV]

It could be just the flagship-syndrome; the biggest Boeings somehow tend to attract the biggest gold-barred ego's. (MD-11's, on the other hand, attract easy-going not-so-lonesome cowboys. ;) )

[tallsandwich]

Flaps,

My small contribution:

Guy/Gal gets promoted, worried about doing it well, but also worried about being seen to be doing it well.

Method of ensuring it goes right - he/she makes sure (and does this more often than normal) that everyone else is doing their bit. Comes across as a lecture, and comes too frequently due to concern, and missing confidence.

1st method of response - acknowledgement that you recognise that this (insert the relevant subject of lecture here) is a concern to him/her and that you are equally concerned etc etc. Thank him/her for bring up the subject, it was a good time to discuss it etc...try not to take the piss as this will make it worse.

Subsequent responses as follows: Reconfirm acknowledgement of the importance of subject, ASK if there was something that you did wrong, or could have done better, or was he/she just checking up again to be sure - as this is an important subject?

He/She will get the message that you know your role....and make sure that you enjoy the sound of being told you did nothing incorrectly. Repeat his/her words back to him/her - so he/she knows you listened, and especially make sure he/she hears you repeat the bit about you having not made any mistakes.

Note: Above "could" be applied to you, when you check up on the FAs since you are now promoted. Above also happens in offices shops factories when responsibilities change or are messed up.

Did you say 5 years of FA under your belt? The above should be a piece of cake for you...remember, you are the one in control in this situation.

Good luck!

[Bealzebub]

Clearly you have had a bad day/week, but I am not entirely clear what it is you are saying. You are a new purser with newly promoted Captains ? You are a new Purser with long established Long Haul Captains ? Both perhaps ?

Whatever it is, the statement.. "What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft?" seems a rather rude and sweeping generalisation from one so newly promoted I feel.

Perhaps a more introspective attitude might alleviate your present difficulty. I am happy you "know the rules and regs inside out", because after 27 years in this business I certainly can't make the same claim. Presumably that is why I have to carry so much reference material around with me, and perhaps your Captains are similarly challenged ?

Promotion is a double edge sword. On the one hand it brings greater responsibility and hopefully reward. Equally it presents an entirely new set of challenges and a different position on the established learning curve. As with anything new it can take some considerable time to settle into a comfortable regime, and I would suggest you give it significantly longer than 5 flights. Bear in mind that whatever the reality or whatever your opinion, these same Captains may well have been in this type of operation for many years and it is unlikely they remain there soley by virtue of the attributes you are assigning in your post.

Are you sure it is not a case of having spent a long time in a previous role now making you unsure and uncomfortable in your new one ? As you will know from your passenger management training when dealing with aggresive and aggitated individuals you do not adopt an "attack stragegy" or become overly defensive. However your post albeit directed at your colleagues seems to do just that. Scanning over the post I note (you): all knowing; take great pain ; totally service minded ; informative; humble; pleasant; diplomatic. (They) : Big headed; egotistical; Lordoftheskies ; grizzly. I appreciate this is your rant, but perhaps you see my point ?

Whilst you may have many valid points they are rather drowned in this one sided version of life. Perhaps you should seek to learn ( that isn't unquestioning acceptance ) rather than espouse your frustrations at such an early stage of your new appointment. If you still feel this way in a few months time then you must obviously re-address the situation. In that event communication will be serve you well although hopefully it will present itself in a slightly more mature manner than that shown here. ;)

[flapsforty]

Thank you all for the input so far; very kind that you take the time.
I will certainly think about the things said so far; it all helps the thinking process.

Perhaps some additonal info will clarify a few points.


I have been working as cabin crew for 24 years. 18 years as long haul FA, 2 years as long haul Assistant Purser responsible for the tourist class and 5 years as Purser responsible for the cabin of a 737. Recently promoted to Senior Purser on the 747, 777 and Airbus.
Until today I thought that the problem was mine alone and that I obviously needed to give it more time as Bealzebub suggests. That the problems I am experiencing were due to my prickly personality or a surfeit of pride. But today all of us on the Senior Purser course, 12 in all, did a mail update of our on the line experiences so far, and it emerges that all 12 of us are experiencing our biggest challenge in the field of how to deal with our Captains. Which is why I dare to make such 'sweepong statements' after only 5 flights. 5 times 12 makes 60 trips after all.
Our Chief pilot has 2 years ago started a project to stimulate the Captains to become managers of the flight without actually providing the Captains with any management training. This has apparently lead to the current situation where many able pilots to the best of their ability try to mange the whole flight process without having the managerial skills to do so effectively.
The problem is not that I get into disagreements with Captains because I don't. I don't think arguments are conducive to a safe and pleasant operation and I have no wish to 'score points' off Captains. But having to subjugate myself to humiliating lectures on subjects I know as least as much about as the Captain does, and having to conform to his wishes with good grace while knowing for sure that he is mistaken, is making me (and many of my colleagues) feel like sh!t.
The comapny pays a lot of money to get us trained to a high standard. They then pay us a respectable salary to manage to the cabin under the Captains responsibilty. To then have us turned into angry frustrated people by the very colleagues with whom we need to cooperate most closely seems to me a monumental waste of effort and resources.


And yes it probably sounds conceited, but on each of the past 5 trips so far it has happened that I have sweetly conformed to the Captain's view of some cabin regulation while knowing (and afterwards being able to prove) that his memory/understanding was wrong and mine was correct.

I know my cabin stuff as wel as most Captains know their pilot stuff. I am happy to come next in line to a 20 year SO and have never had a problem with understanding or adhering to the chain of command.
What I do have a problem with is being managed in an inept way by chaps who know little or nothing about how to manage people, who know less about cabin rules and regs than I do and who do not for one moment even contemplate the fact that this might be the case.



Bealzebub I do take your points, I really do, but do you take mine?
Frustated from Norway ;)

[Bealzebub]

Yes now that you have come down from 35,000 ft ( so to speak) I do indeed take your points.

I remember as a new F/O talking to others on my intake, and like yourself we also all had the same names we found it difficult to get along with ( I am sure that came to more than 60 trips as well), but after time there developed a better understanding of their personalities and a better understanding of the interaction between those personalities and the role of said individuals. That is not to say that I would invite them all around for dinner even now, but a better understanding provides a greater degree of self confidence and less opportunity for overt frustration.

I think it is often the case that our personalities may not change, but as we don another set of clothes, stripes or badges other peoples perception of our personalities changes. This coupled with the natural uncertainty that any change of role (promotion) brings with it, is often bound to cause an upset (imbalance) to us as individuals. Here we are moving from a role that we are experienced and comfortable with, into a new role frought with new challenges and responsibility. It may be the case, or we may perceive, that others are not being as helpful or co-operative as they might. It is also natural ( even if we are reluctant to admit it) that there is a real fear of failure in being able to adapt to the new role and the leadership that others may look for in us. Sometimes others may intentionally or unconsciously challenge us in our new role to see how we handle it. Their perception of how we respond to that challenge may well influence their future attitude and behaviour towards us. By way of example the last line of my previous response may well have been such a challenge, and if so you responded very well by not rising to it Which I perceive as a more realistic insight into your character than you might have actually portrayed by your first post.

At the end of the day I think that be it a new company, a new promotion, a new fleet, it takes time for us to understand and appreciate the new situation and personalities. It is a mistake to think that things will necessarily be the same or even similar. Give it time and settle into your new role in your own time. Not every body you meet will be helpful, charming or right, but until you have found yourself comfortable and experienced in the role, take the time and apply the necessary filters to listen rather than react to a situation.

Finally I should mention that although this is clearly only my opinion I am a long haul Captain, so of course I am right ! ;)

[flapsforty]

Of course you are Sir, thank you Sir! ;)

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I couldn't agree more with you about the "but until you have found yourself comfortable and experienced in the role, take the time and apply the necessary filters to listen rather than react to a situation.". Fact is, with this whole thread I am trying to f igure out just how to go about buying myself that time without getting totally frustrated by, and rebellious towards, the very captains I will work with for the rest of my career.

Exactly because I do not react but quietly and pleasantly let them pour all their 'wisdom' over my poor head, do I get so frustrated and annoyed.

If i told them what I thought of their methods, or would point out chapter and verse where they are mistaken, I would feel better but harmony would go out the window, and that's not what I'm after. So I don't.
But by keeping mum and conforming for the sake of harmony I come home feeling angry and humiliated.
Catch 22.

So I come here looking for some wisdom in how to deal with this situation in a way that saves me (and the others) from turning into bitching uncooperative bats before we have even settled into our new jobs.

Again, much appreciate the input. :ok:

[Bealzebub]

Yes! But of course that is what home is for. To share your frustrations with your nearest and dearest.

Many is the time I have sought sympathy and succour from the other half after a particularly frustrating day with those Pursers who will insist on coming in in the middle of a particularly protracted clearance to inform me about something "vital", or want re-inforcement of some or other cabin matter that I am happier leaving to their own judgement, rather than having to recollect some company edict that I may have read in the distant past somewhere. Cabin crew always seem to have a veritable "Doomsday book" of endless edicts and pronouncements bestowed upon them, that rarely (thank god!) ( and please don't think the lack of capital G in god was an oversight), make there way into my in-tray. Anyway I digress.

As the other half perhaps unfortunately is also cabin crew, she seems strangely reluctant to universely offer the desired level of agreement and sympathy that I may be seeking. Though this sometimes results in the children retracting their necks and creeping off to any other room with a working TV set or computer console, to the background noise of embattled parents, it does occaisonaly result in some subsequent introspection, though almost never an admission of fault on my part of course.

If you have teenage children then you are indeed at an advantage, since it really will not take long for you to appreciate that however frustrating things may be at work, nothing but nothing could be worse than this !!!;)

[BlueEagle]

Flaps, would it be fair to say that you actually knew most of the 737 captains fairly well, either by flying with them a lot or possibly knowing them when they were FOs on other fleets and that over the years you have been able to build up a familiarity with those crews that is, at the moment, totally lacking among the long haul captains most of whom you are meeting for the first time?

If that is the case, or part of it, then time is the only cure and it will take longer than usual as you won't see these captains so frequently as you did on short haul but in the meantime you will be gaining in confidence and possibly feeling a little more relaxed and less on edge.

Is there a history of recently appointed Chief Pursers coming straight off course and being rather, 'full of it', that the captain would be aware of and possibly reacting too?

I think, as I mentioned, that you have to give it more time, you are all having the same problem which points to the Pursers rather than the captains having a problem, easily identified as inexperience in the role which can only get better trip by trip;)
Best of Luck,
BE.

[Ignition Override]

Flaps Forty-I feel sorry for you. The hardest working pilots at my company are the First Officers who fly the old 100-122-seat jets, with NO automation, through, or around, various weather on short legs in crowded airspace and up to five, six or seven legs per duty period (often no rest during 12-14 hours). You should see the work when combined with de-icing procedures and landings on gusty, slippery runways in the winter.

And so a number of your widebody Captains somehow forget about their "roots" (previous aircraft positions)?

You might figure out some method to remind the most puffed-up "blow-hards", as to just who and where the hardest-working pilots often are-in the smaller, oldest planes, flying at least five approaches (or more) per day, and at times with RVR often near minimums. And the smaller the plane, generally speaking, the smaller the airport and the most uncontrolled (few updated weather observations) late at night, never mind the unforecast fog and snow. Give them a copy of this with my regards.

As a fellow pilot, who has very clever insight, recently told me, "pilots sometimes look forward to going to work, so that they can BE Somebody", which means somebody important. And many prefer to never remove their uniform hat (even when the company decided that it is not required): they probably have very limited authority over their private lives at home, and so therefore...

Isn't authority and a vertical chain-of-command the subject here?

What regulation or company policy states that Command ( even in an airplane) requires total authority and unquestioning obedience?
:suspect: What rule or reg. states that the pilot in the left seat (who often has far less transoceanic experience than many of his/her First Officers or Flight Engineers who flew the P-3, C-130, DC-8 charter or especially the C-141/C-5 type of missions) must micromanage?

It is most unlikely that a Captain, or his XO on a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier (formerly a Naval Aviator) must instruct all of his subordinates as to just how to run their departments and deal with the various personalities. If this is the case, then why is it so difficult on just one airplane?

[BlueEagle]

Don't think we are talking about a few old "blow-hards" here IO.

Written as it is, we are talking about sixty crusty old blow-hards who have just come in contact with the latest from Chief Purser school. That leads me to think that the latest from CP School have just had to leave the very top of a very tall tree to join at the bottom of the most senior tree in the forest and a few egos have been scorched, perhaps?

I believe that given time mountains will become molehills.

[BOAC]

Firstly I speak with no experience of l/haul command, just s/haul, but sometimes that involves going 'on tour' for a few days with the same crew, and although the problems are essentially smaller, they are little different in reality, despite the sometimes portrayed 'hype'. Indeed on some occasions due to time pressures s/haul can claim a more challenging task.

I agree with 'all the above', but an alarm bell rings faintly in the background. Should we be reading 'behind the lines' rather than 'between' as we are?

No disrespect to Flaps, but the initial reaction is 'she is just having a bad day?'. Now on closer inspection we find 100% of the course of the same mind-set. I have seen this elsewhere, the great ?perceived? divide at the f/deck door, the 'struggle' for supremacy between senior c/crew and Cpts.

Not good, and if we are all such 'gods' in the LHS, then surely it is something we should be capable of sorting out? After all, no-one else is 'in charge' of the flight nor has the overall responsibility. Are we all 'mature' enough to both recognise and defuse this small bomb? The LAST thing any of us need is a 'reluctance', real or sub-conscious, for the c/crew to be at ease and to exchange information freely with us. That adversly affected at least one UK accident.

It is an interesting topic Flaps has raised, and one which would benefit all of us with further exploration. I would like to hear from some 'seasoned' l/haul senior crew. Does the 'rift' worsen or improve with time/experience as suggested above? Is a less-than-ideal stalemate developed with the metal barrier in place and 'sod them, let them get on with it?' If so, Flaps and her coursemates will settle down to that philosophy and 'all will be well'?? Is that where Blue Eagle and Bealzebub are pointing the course? Is there a deeper problem? Can/should the 'god' help a bit here? We should be easily able to recognise both 'new' seniors and the possibility of 'scorched egos' - why can WE not handle it? Who is in command and has THE responsibilty? There is no-one else. Is it sufficient to say 'oh, they'll get over it'? The question really is what is there 'over it'?

Perhaps it IS the airlines' fault? Is enough emphasis placed on teamwork and leadership as in the military world? Is it the perceived idea that the Captain must 'run the show' rather than make quietly sure that the 'show runs'? I'd be interested to hear from marine Captains/senior ships' crews. How is it there?

Gentlemen (and Ladies - is it a gender thing?:eek: ) of the LHS - are WE doing our best?

[tallsandwich]

Some (most) people are just bad a management or leadership duties, and no amount of training will change that. It is typical of organisations to promote those who are techncial profcient and then expect them to be good at holding a team together. Sending them on training only makes matters worse as there is an expectation that somehow this fixes the problem.

I agree with flaps that being good at flying a plane is no qualification for being a good leader, and sadly, waiting for training will not help. However, someone has to be in-charge, and that person had better be able to delegate.

Faced with a poor leader, it is the only the actions of those under him/her that affect the outcome, so Flaps should really be bitching that the company did not train her on how to manage her new "bad" manager.

[Hawk]

God.. Madam Flaps. You ask such authentic and important questions.

You have had some very good replys already here. Wish I could come up with some strategies off the top of my head. Give me a week to think about it. ;)

One of the difficulties is the constant change of technical and cabin crew that a Senior Pursar has to manage.
I'll come back to it.

[xetroV]

What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft?
Flaps 40, this question suggests that you have actually witnessed this transformation from easy-going pilot to B.H.E.B., but after reading your other posts, I wonder if you actually knew these guys when they were still driving 737's. Perhaps you just encountered several pilots who may have been B.H.E.B's long before they got that promotion. Fact is: there are cultural differences between aircraft divisions, even within the same company; my earlier tongue-in-cheek reply about the flagship-syndrome did have a serious undertone. I have never once felt belittled when I was a second officer flying the MD11, but I know some horror-stories by friends of mine who flew a different aircraft type. Could be down to individual pigheads, but it could also be a deeper-rooted attitude within the division as such. Perhaps the chief pilots of these wide-body aircraft try to push the 'manager of the flight' issue just a little harder than their 737 collegue, who knows?

The attitude of these pilots can also be caused by bad experiences on their part. In my experience there is quite a large variation in managerial skills of junior and senior pursers alike, even when they have all been subjected (in theory at least) to stringent selection criteria. If only all people were as enthousiastic and dedicated as you seem to be, life would be much easier. Believe it or not: even as a second officer I have still had to tell some very senior pursers not to write down airworthiness complaints in the cabin maintenance log... go figure!

Also, I imagine that quite a few of these 'senior senior' pursers are not at all happy with the chain-of-command (sometimes even being B.H.E.B.'s themselves). In fact, the captain being 'manager of the flight' is not a new concept at all, it's been this way ever since the Wright Flyer first took off. The very reason for this concept to be highlighted (again) is that over the years many parties involved in the execution of a flight tried to capture some of the captain's decision making powers, although it is still the captain who ultimately will be held accountable if things go wrong. Saying the captain is the 'manager of the flight' is just re-iterating long established rules.

Now don't get me wrong: these issues are no excuse whatsoever for captains to treat you like a child! These are just some observations by me, trying to figure out why such things happen.

When I, in my role as a first officer, experience a captain who constantly tries to explain the obvious, I usually interpret this as someone trying his best to give me good advise (maybe to compensate for his/her own insecurity, or perhaps just out of genuine consideration for a junior collegue). Such comments may seem belittling if you already know the story, but on the other hand I know I try to give such advise myself if I am flying with a less experienced captain. Most of the time this initial assessment of the situation turns out to be right, and only very seldomly I meet a truly B.H.E.B. captain. But even then I am careful in picking my battles: I'll let him discuss his pet-issues as long as he keeps it safe; if not, I'll tell him.

In your case, I'd surely tell the captain if he is interfering to a point where you can't do your job right. If that doesn't help, and if safety is not being compromised, I would do what he told you, but write a report about it later. And if he is just being an asshole... well, I wouldn't waste my precious energy for that.

[flapsforty]

In order not lose the plot here and to aid structured thinking (mine that is ;) ) I have made a list with the 3 categories of possible causes proposed on the thread so far.
List of proposed solutions will be next.

Possible causes:[list=1]
The airline places too little emphasis on teamwork and leadership & doesn't provide joint CRM trainingProbable
The airline stimulates Capts to be real Managers of the Flight without providing them with appropriate managerial training Probable
The constant change of cockpit and cabin crew Possible
New type of operation for all concernedNot applicable

SPs own attitude towards Captains Not applicable at this stage yet
SP has spent a long time in a previous role and is now unsure and uncomfortable in new one
Possible
SP objetcs to being talked down to by Capts on subjects SP actually knows more about than Capt Probable
SP's time in new job too short to understand and appreciate the new situation and personalities
Possible
SP tends to disturb Capt with irrelevant non-issues while Capt is busy with important matters.
Possible but I know better than that! ;)
SPs knew 737 pilots well but do not know LH Capts Just the opposite; we have been with the company for about the same time as these Capts and we know them rather well from all our years on LH
SPs are newbies and full of it Possible but from what I have seen, all of us are fairly humble and know that we are no more than a small cog in the whole operation
SPs have just had to leave the very top of a very tall tree to join at the bottom of the most senior tree in the forest and a few egos have been scorched Unlikely since the 737 was no tall tree, both the pilots and ourselves worked like dogs and never felt in the least glamorous or imporatant.
SPs are unhappy with the chain-of-command Not applicable

Flagship-syndrome & Capts' inability to contemplate the fact that SPs are competent & qualified in their own field Seems likely
Newly promoted Capt worried about being seen to be doing it well.Not applicable
CC have bestowed on them endless lists of doomsday edicts that never make it to the Capt's in-tray so the Capt doesn't know about them Information that touches both is distributed to both groups, so not applicable
Capts can 'be somebody important' at work and are full of it
Possible
Captains' inability to recognise both 'new' seniors and the possibility of 'scorched egos'
Possible
Bad past experiences on the pilot's part
Possible
Captain lacks understanding of situational management and has adopted a 'one style fits all' way of management that fits his own personality rather than the level of development of the SP he's managing.
Seems likely
[/list=1]

[LanFranc]

Q.
What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft?

A.
A purser like you!

While I don't "know" you, I know your type. Bitch and moan in a public forum, with anonymity, seeking sympathy and validation under the guise of looking for a "solution." Your perceived problem, I suggest, stems from you and not the Bastards in the left seat. Might I suggest you walk a mile in our shoes? Failing that, an honest and frank discussion with said Bastards regarding your hurt feelings. I think most of them will make some accommodation for your apparently more needy ego.

Your comments are not helpful and contribute nothing to the discussion. The post qualifies as a personal attack something we do not allow on this Site. You might like to reconsider.
Hawk

[Empty Cruise]

Ahemm, LanFranc...

...I thought that most people determine for them selves how they behave. I would never leave such a big decision to "...pursers like Flaps" :rolleyes: I prefer a moaner every day to one who just keeps it wrapped up until they explode. And, frankly, Flaps does not come across like a moaner - she has a genuine concern (what's wrong?) and shares it with others to find solutions. How can that be bad???

Anyway, Flaps - as several others have spotted, being the upgraded one is not always that easy. Nor is it easy to implement new managerial procedures without managerial tools.

Have you tried to have a chat with one of the less big-headed ones down-route? Maybe the 2 senior managers aboard the aircraft need to co-ordinate a bit more - before check-in? Maybe the base exec. or your superior could have a chat with one of the management pilots in question - in that way it need not be you sticking your lovely head out, but could be something approached top-down :confused:

Anyway, hang in - we are all only human (even us bigheaded ones :p )

Brgds fm
Empty

[flapsforty]

LanFranc I find your post needlessly aggressive, personally offensive and jumping to conclusions about something you know too little about to actually make a valid judgement.

Very much like my own first post on this thread in fact ;)

And just for the record, while you and I might not know eachother, many regulars here know my name, what I look like and where I work. Anonymous is the one thing I am not.

[flapsforty]

I-FORD I am not aware that I use any bad language in my first post.
It certainly could have been written in a less confrontational manner (as I have already acknowledged in my post above yours) but the starting post does accurately reflect a state of mind.


I don't know why the large old-grumpies-in-the-LHS community isn't stoning me any worse. Being a Mod has certainly never saved me in the past from getting an earfull.
Perhaps they don't think CRM is an interesting subject and don't read the forum? ;)

[Captain Stable]

I am seriously concerned by the aggressive responses that have been posted to Flaps' very sensible and thoughtful questions.

Several show no predisposition whatsoever to the use of effective CRM and they make me wonder why people like that would bother to read this forum.

Hawk has sent me a copy of a PM she sent to one contributor. Be glad she got to it first, because I would have banned the contributor concerned - not that I would criticise her at all, just we have different tolerance thresholds.

As I get older I find that Modding here at the end of a long, tiring day does not dispose me to suffering fools gladly. Perhaps I'm a grumpy old sod nowadays, but my wife still loves me.

So tone it down, folks, take Flaps' posts in the spirit in which I know she meant it - presenting an interpersonal problem that is not only hers but also belonging to others with whom she works, and please present sensible, thoughtful, incisive and well argued responses.

Anything that is ruder than "Please pass the salt" will earn further wrath.

[wobble2plank]

IMHO I always thought it was Crew resource management, not cockpit resource management :p

My point being, that the jet, as a whole, is the crew. Irrespective of the poling or the personnel keeping the SLF happy each is entitled to input their concerns, ideas or opinions to the aircraft captain. As an ex SAR captain I felt it absoloutly necessary to consider all inputs. Okay a slightly different scenario but I always feel that someone might have seen something I haven't.

I probably don't have the inter personal skill set required to placate the SLF on a LH flight and I respect those that do. Purely for the fact that I wouldn't be able to do it day in day out. I can fly the thing around which is where my skill set is aimed.

Always listen, if not the day that the CC spot something critical might be the day they won't tell you or you won't listen.

Good post Flaps, keep listening and pecking away at those ego's.

:ok:

[Hawk]

What are we doing wrong?

That is an interesting start to your post flaps. I guess it assumes there is "right and wrong" ways of managing the cabin/technical crew CRM environment. You go on to summarise some good replys.

I think this sort of thread can offer a lot in the way of shared experiences. In the end though it's about strategies that have come from real life examples, what has worked and what has not.

It is important for contributors to look at strategies for managing, rather than solutions (assumes some linear relationship in the area of human interaction) this allows the topic to stay fresh rather than bog down into argument. :cool:

IMHO I always thought it was Crew resource management, not cockpit resource management

Wobble2. Technically speaking both are correct. The term Crew Resource Management evolved in the \'80s to include not just the flight crew but all others involved in the safe operation of the aircraft. ie. cabin crew, engineers, dispatchers and management. I think it was United Airlines that first invented the term as part of their formal training program in human factors and communication.

[flapsforty]

Hawk any chance of you giving an example of what you mean by 'managing strategies' in this case?
I do tend to think fairly linear, so it would be helpful to look at this from your perspective as an outsider-insider-expert-witness so to speak.

[GlueBall]

"Flaps"...as a 24 year veteran of inflight services you must have learned a great deal of psychology in handling extraordinary situations, and in handling people with larger than life egos.

As it pertains to captains with inflated, fragile egos you may be well to do to send only the youngest and best looking female cabin attendant to the cockpit. Encounters with youth, sexiness and beauty magically transform rude captains into tame and friendly beings, ...even when the coffee is only lukewarm. :eek:

[Hawk]

OK flaps, but first how about we pose it as an addition to your original question and open it up to discussion.

Is there a difference between the terms "solutions and strategies" in a CRM environment?

[flapsforty]

Glueball very true! ;)
In fact, encouraging the younger FAs to disregard the Steel Barrier and actually go and visit the cockpit for a chat is something I always do. It cheers up the chaps no end and it makes the girls realise that there is in fact more to an aircraft than just the cabin. :)

Still, sheer politeness and the importance of a good working relationship dictate that Ye Olde Battle Ax also has to pop in regularly, preferably without causing major rises in everyones bloodpressure.
And that's what this thread's all about. :cool:


Hawk eeerrrmmmm .... :confused: ... you tell me?

[OzExpat]

I'll have a go at that, Hawk. A "strategy" is a plan that is intended to achieve a desired outcome. A "solution" could be considered the same way because both words imply the use of a method.

Howzat? :D

[Captain Stable]

I-FORD, a post does not have to be "politically correct" to demonstrate respect for other posters, nor to demonstrate at least some of the precepts of CRM - which is, after all, one of the basic subjects of this forum.

I have made it clear in the past that I will not tolerate agressive, insulting posts here. If that's too much for others to deal with, then they can leave, and I'm glad they won't be sullying such threads as this with their rubbish.

Flaps has made it quite clear that she admits her first post could have been better worded, and that it was written in the heat of the moment. However, it was a very long way from deserving the aggressive and insulting responses it engendered.

Your posts have not been addressed by either myself or my fellow Mods because they have stayed within the rules. I am perfectly prepared to admit I am an arrogant BHEB myself, both here and on the flight deck, but I admit it, I and people with whom I work can have some fun with it. Even my wife teases me about it. We can't change our personalities. All we can do is recognise our failings and allow others to work round our failings. But that recognition is, for some, a step too far.

[flapsforty]

I-FORD I would like to re-focus the thread on the management strategies alluded to by Hawk instead of continuing to dwell on my own and/or other people's individual failings, if at all possible.

I'm happy to address the points you raise about my personal doings onboard via PM, if you enable your private message function, or via e-mail.

[bear11]

Flaps, if I may draw a parallel from another industry - I had a similar conversation recently with a friend who was having serious difficulties with a senior manager he had recently come into contact with. My friend is very good at what he does, and a very rational person with the precious ability not to take himself too seriously. But he found himself engaged in a nasty battle with this manager which was always going to end in tears for him – because, in simple terms, he is lower down the food chain, and we all know which direction the sh!t flows in. Despite this, he just couldn’t let it go, and it had got to the stage that his own direct manager (who he had always been on excellent terms with) had started to take sides and handbag him.

Coincidentally, the company had a psychologist giving the industry equivalent of CRM courses with them at the time, and my friend talked it through with her. She pointed out that the crux of this for him was the implied lack of trust from the senior manager, plus of course his personality type, which had sent him into unreasonable orbit.

So, there are 2 possibilities at least as to what has caused this – the first could be “first day at new Skool” syndrome, where BHEB feels the need to show who’s the boss. If this is the case, you would reasonably expect things to settle down after a couple of months once everybody “knows their place”, and unfortunately, you just have to suck it up as you are and wait for normality – as I-FORD suggests, the mountains morph into molehills. The second is that you may be having an extreme reaction, which is not so much a question of your own ego being bruised, but due to your personality type – how could BHEB not trust you, given you have so much experience and are a very professional and competent lady? How can you deal with some of the prize retards you must have met over the years in the cabin, but still react so strongly when you enter the flightdeck?

My apologies for the windy post, but I find this an interesting subject that struck a chord with me after my recent experience. I would wager that as an industry, aviation has a far higher quotient of individuals that are “up themselves” than many others, and the question is, are those people attracted toward the business or bred within it, and why is the training insufficient to stop it dead when it walks onto the aircraft, given it undoubtedly causes CRM issues?

[BOAC]

I think it is worth re-stating that this 'sentiment'/'personality failing' was experienced by 12/12 of the course?

How does it go?

once is a happening
twice is a coincidence
....................

That is what makes me feel there is a deeper problem than egos or whatever, and I still feel the BHEBs,if they are as good as the think they are, should be able to defuse this, as, indeed, should the senior pursers. The lead however, is at the sharp end.

[BOAC]

I-Ford I never underestimate the effects of older age and jet-lag on somebody’s behaviour, they are subtle but noticeable. It sounds like a joke, but there is, I think, a difference between a 40sh years old B737 captain, fast reacting, smart and socially skilled and the same bloke ten years later, 50sh years old B777 captain, drowsy, bored and used to eat alone at impossible hours in 6 time-zones-away-from-home layovers.
Same applies to Pursers. - have you 'put your finger on it'? Is it really THAT simple? It seems an attractive explanation which covers the story. The only thing that would change that is if the 12 had experience of a few "40sh years old B737 captain, fast reacting, smart and socially skilled" BHEBs on the 747 - if that is possible in that airline! Equally there are, presumably, grumpy old gits like me on the short-haul fleets?

PS No need to apologise for your English!

[Rananim]

You meet all types of people in your chosen profession and it is up to you how you interact with them.Pilots can be difficult but so can lead FA's.I have always found female cabin crew from the Far East to be the most charming,especially Japanese and/or Singaporean.But in an emergency,I think I'd want one of my countryfolk or similar(ie.western).Of course,its just a generalization in any case.
The best FA's know how to cope with "difficult" passengers and/or colleagues without showing any signs of stress or impatience.
You could also consider the bigger picture;the social/cultural/sexual revolution that took place many years back has diluted manners and respect for authority and emphasized youth and independence.
CRM,good CRM that is,not the pc version,is all about mutual respect and teamwork but not at the expense of a structured hierarchy.A rudderless ship always founders on the rocks.

A pilot who believes that his skills are all about pointing the plane in the right direction and nothing more should take up crop dusting or go work for Ryanair.A Captain of a vessel carrying up to 400 people over vast oceans has evidently a lot more on his plate.

[wobble2plank]

Rananim,

I feel that last point was probably aimed at my comments so I feel free to reply,

I stated that I respect the CC for dealing, day in day out with the SLF. I have spent a vast amount of time, as a Captain, dealing with injured, traumatised and shocked victims of accidents and incidents. I can sympathise and deal with these people on a one to one basis.

Once those people were then loaded onto the aircraft I handed them over to the professionals in the back who administered the approprite level of medical/psychlogical care required. I however got on with my primary job of getting them quickly, safely and professionally to hospital. Does this make me a poor Captain?

Credit where credit is due. A good manager delegates the duty of care to those who are best trained to conduct the job. If a particularly difficult decision comes up then, fine, lend a well balanced opinion and, if necessary, make a decision. But always remember the a decision based upon bad information will always be a bad decision so we get back to utilising your crew effectively.

This is where CRM needs to be pushed. A poor man manager, irrespective of his/her flying ability will, generally, rub people up the wrong way. It's not all about telling somewone how they should do their job, a well aimed suggestion towards a soloution to a problem, bringing the person to the correct conclusion on their own promotes far better self esteem in both parties.

A subject that should be covered more in the CRM from both sides of the cockpit door :E

[411A]

Having been a long (and sometimes medium) haul Captain in three/four engine heavy jet transport aircraft for over thirty years, I have found the ultimate solution for any problems that might crop up with cabin crew, from time to time.

I always tell the cabin chief (male or female)...

YOU are in charge of the cabin, and if any problem should develop that you are unable to solve, just let me know and I will solve it, one way or another.

This has avoided any problems generally and, in one particular case, I offloaded a entire junior cabin crew, but kept the cabin chief, simply because they would not follow her directions.
I told 'em once, shape up or ship out...they did not so I did it for 'em.

Cabin chief's deserve respect, and I provide same.
It's a two way street, and works very well.

[Dream Land]

Flaps,

I have a great deal of respect for the job that takes place in the cabin, I too choose to delegate authority and back up any decisions made in my absence within reason, I try my best not to micro manage and to be team orientated. My impression from your posts is that all captains are messed up in some way, maybe I am missing something, are you a frustrated pilot wanebe or were you married to a pilot by any chance?:}

[BOAC]

Flaps - we've kicked this around a bit, you have survived the beatings and seen 'the advice'. Have you and your course-mates come to any further conclusions? Have things 'changed' at all after trips 6 and onwards?

You cannot just leave us in suspenders like that:D

[Miserlou]

Dear Frustrated, of Norway,

Could it just be that the new colleagues are just trying to be extra helpful or protective to help you settle in to your new position. This could be perceived as condescending and arrogant.

Some captains, with ideas above their stations, try to act like instructors and others jst try too hard to help.

They are sizing you up, as well, you know. You know the score, with your experience. Bite your lip, smile, and agree with them.

Good luck with it.

[flapsforty]

BOAC you look rather cute in those Santa Claus suspenders. ;)

Middle of next month the company will chase us 2 days and night around the winter woods with a bunch of tasks to complete and some military types to keep us in line and from doing ourselves irreparable harm. This apparently to impress on us the fact that only by working as an effective team can things be accomplished.

We will have down time as well, and I am sure that this subject will be discussed extensively. :} If anything interrsting comes out of it, I will post back here.

For now, this thread has been really useful and has made me realise that there are many good reasons why things are the way they are. And that often, no malice is intended where we see condescension and lecturing.
It has also made me realise that some things will just have to be approached with a 'water off a duck's back' mentality.
I am practising my zen. :)

Thanks to all who have taken the time to add their thoughts. :ok:

[BOAC]

you look rather cute in those Santa Claus suspenders - and I thought the webcam was off..................... :eek:

[Hawk]

Oh! an adventure learning retreat. :uhoh: Sneak a hip flask in for the debriefings flaps. :\ :E Last one of those I went on I was left in the dark, top of a tree to scared to go down the flying fox. Everyone pretended to go home without me. :{

[BOAC]

er.................you're not STILL up there, are you?:D

[flufdriver]

In our outfit we don't do longhaul, but I am a senior Captain and I do fly the biggest Iron we have.

After reading all the comments to the original post, I'd like to offer a few myself:

It would be interesting to know if these LH Captains have other things in common, perhaps age, background etc. things that set them distinctly apart from your typical thirty-something shorthaul captain that grew up in a post 1960 world and the attitudes that come from that.

I have definetely come across my share of older Captains who seem to have forgotten where they came from and that they are not god's gift to aviation. The old "do as I say and not as I do" concept was something many of them subscribed to and when they couldn't handle a situation with knowledge or skill, they tried to make up for it with blustering and pontificating.

Of course, the problem with all of this is that I myself am now one of those "old Captains"

There used to be a saying, that as an F/O you had to be a diplomat if you wanted to keep harmony in the cockpit. As a Captain I have often felt the same way and perhaps as a senior cabin crew at the point of contact with the flightdeck, the same goes for you flaps!

So, coming back to my first question, if all the LH Captains are of the old school and all of the new senior cabin crew encounter the same difficulties, perhaps you folks need to get to know each other to a) recognise each others idiosyncracies and b) to build a level of mutual trust but especially from the top down,that will (hopefully) eliminate the skippers feeling that he must be seen to be proactive in guiding these newly minted senior CC's and instead feel confident that he/she? can leave the cabin to their partners on the team and that if there is something that requires the Captains direct involvement, the senior CC will gently suggest a course of action that will allow the skipper to look knowledgable, dignified and omnipotent. Works for me!

Flaps, over time I have read many of your posts and quite frankly I am a bit surprised that you have not been able to solve this situation given the level of human knowledge and critical insight I have seen you display before, perhaps you're a bit insecure in your new slot too? BTW, what happens on layovers? don't you guys talk to each other?

Don't let it get to you!

[heights good]

Im from a military background and my way of dealing with baby pilots who are overly keen is simple too be twice as bad. Let me explain

"can you tell me when they are secure"

"sure thing skipper"

after 5 second pause

"are they secure yet?"

"no skipper"

another 5 seconds pass

"are they secure now"

"no skipper"

and so on

easy cure for this

"let me know when there secure"

"sure skipper"

"1 pax secure"

"2 pax secure"

"3 pax secure"

etc. etc. etc.

After a few hours they are telling YOU to stop being so keep

Always worked for me, play them at their own game

[Hawk]

Thank you flufdriver for your observations. The more valuable because they come from a senior captain who has been in a position to observe the cabin/tech interaction over some time.

I am sure Moderator Flapsforty values your comments about her insight and experience. Nevertheless, she was raising an issue at a very conceptual level, struggling at that early stage of the thread, more with the questions to be asked than the answers. It is a commercial aviation issue and a emotive and important topic...that is why she raised it.

We have all had a bit of fun and drama with it. (BOAC ..you naughty boy ;) ) I think it needs to continue as a discussion, but let's do a paradigm shift. I do not believe there are solutions as such to this issue...I think the best we can do is to come up with strategies to manage it.

Thanks to all who have contributed some valuable insights, both military and commercial and Madam Flaps for raising the topic.

Flaps, look forward to hearing about your journey.

[flapsforty]

As promised, a final installment of the saga. :ugh:
It is long & unreadable, so feel free to skip straight to the conclusion in the last paragraph. ;)
Here goes.

Woods expedition takes place from a hotel 3 hours drive away from the airport. To avoid morning rush hour probs, to make sure we are well rested for the day & nigt ahead and to meet up again & prepare before the official bit starts, we decide the 12 of us to book into the hotel the night before at our own expense.

0900 hrs we assemble in conference room with 2 trainers; 1 woman from the company who has stood for our training so far, 1 chap specialised in outdoor training
from external consultancy.
As expected, we start the day with everybody having to state what they have found the biggest challenge so far & what they want to learn more about during this training.
As agreed, I say the following.
‘My biggest challenge is how to deal with captains when they require me to do something which I know is wrong. To keep the peace and preserve a good working relationship, mindful of the chain of command, I go along with their wishes. Which as expected leads to various complications due SOP deviations and also leaves me feeling frustrated, angry and confused as to why this is happening. The peace is kept, the captains are happy but I arrive home feeling like sh!t’

All 12 have different points, the trainers take notes and schedule us for various roles during the day and night. All according to what they percieve as the level of situational leadership where we are experiencing the problems.

http://www.chimaeraconsulting.com/sitleader.htm

Outside there is a mass of material we use for the various tasks. We learn how to build stuff out of tall fence posts and heavy ropes, all the while training the various levels of situational leadership, starting with straightforward S1 working upwards to end at night with far more complicated S4.

During the day, I just ‘do’ stuff and get no leading training. Which makes me fear the worst for the upcoming night. After dinner, while we are already fairly tired, 2 of us get explained the next task. I’m still not leading anything.
The 2 colleagues assigned as ‘leaders’ tell us that we are to transport the heavy building materials through the forest, to a location on a map.

The leaders do a very creditable job of letting us divide the tasks so they suit our different skills. Result is a group of well motivated people starting out with some apprehension but also the idea that we will manage this fine. The trainers make it very clear that they are strictly there as observers and will not participate in the decision making process nor the execution of the tasks.
From the company grapevine we know that it is during the night part that colleagues have failed, that groups have become unstuck and people have ruined their promotion.

Living in Norway the way I do, I am the only one with experience going on forest walks and having to read maps, so map reading falls to me. We set off, singing and carrying all the heavy gear. Me up front, with map and an assistant map reader with a torch. On my back a heavy backpack where I have surreptitiously packed a camping gaz burner, tea & coffee, cups, sugar & milk powder, 4 liters of water and 14 miniature booze bottlles scrounged from the crew on my flight in. The map is a poor black and white copy, A4 size, but readable by torch and moonlight.

The most logical trail to get where we’re going has been closed off, so I need to decide on an alternative route.
It later turns out the trainers have never before taken this alternative route. To avoid the whole group having to stop at every fork and put down & pick up their heavy load, I try to stay a distance ahead of them to be able to take my time in deciding where we are and which fork to take. Despite having explained my reasons for going ahead a few times, there are a few people who get apprehensive when I walk off. So I double back to rejoin the group as often as possible.

After 90 mins we take a rest at a point where the trail splits in 3. I know exactly where we are and where we need to go, we are only about 30 mins away from our goal. Which is just as well, since the carrying is becoming more and more of a burden & people are getting thirsty. I don’t let on that I am carrying supplies, wanting to save this news for when I finally will get a leader role and will have to motivate this tired and thirsty bunch to yet again perform some crazy task in the middle of the night in a cold and wet forest.
The group is stil fairly positive, the atmosphere is good and nobody grouches much.

As we set off again and I take the right fork, I suddenly hear my assistant map reader call ‘we’re going to the left here’ This is so out of character for him, apart from being the totally wrong direction, that I run over to him and ask WTF is happening? He whispers in my ear that the male trainer, the one who does this every few months, has stepped out of the observer role and has quietly told him that we need to go to the left.
This is unprecedented as the trainer is not supposed to interfere. So while I know that this new routing will make us walk at least an extra hour, I go along with it. Figuring that there will be a very good reason for his getting involved and sending us this way.
After a few minutes, I get a very uncomfortable feeling. So I also step out of my assigned role and call the male trainer to me, a bit aside from the rest of the group. I ask why he is sending us this way? He claims the group is getting tired, my map reading is off and his route is quicker.
I get out the map, point out to him the route we have taken, where we are now and how he is sending us off on a tangent. He gets somewhat agitated & I can not get the facts across to him. He insists that I am off and that he knows where we are.
He’s the trainer and as such higher in ‘rank’ tahn me, he’s done this many times before, he is getting fairly irritated and short with me, so I suspend my belief in myself and to avoid a conflict that would upset the rest of the group, consent to go along the path he wants.

We carry on, the ‘animator’ is very good at keeping the mood upbeat and has an endlesss repertoire of songs. I get more and more annoyed, seeing on my little map how we are getting further removed from our goal for every step we take. But I can’t let that show, so pretend everything is well. After another 30 mins we hit a paved road, another ca 45 mins away from our final goal.
I fake joy at having come out exactly right, group relieved that they can now walk on asfalt and we set off again.
I fall back, call the trainer and point out to him again where we are, where we were, how we went wrong.
He falls silent. Then tells me that he has never walked this particular route before, got confused in the woods and admits having sent us in the wrong and extra long direction because of it. He says he’s sorry and can we keep it from the rest not to destroy morale?

And suddenly it hits me right between the eyes.
Exactly like what happens onboard, I have let myself be overruled by the bloke in-charge, against my better knowledge, and am now walking around presenting a cheerfull and optimistic face to the rest while feeling like sh!t for being such a weak fool and doing something so blatantly wrong.
I rush up to the trainer. He looks very doubtful at my flood of words and then suddenly, when the truth hits him as well, starts giggling. And then laughing. He swears blind that the whole thing has been unintentional, but at the same is very happy for it having turned out this way; precisely the lesson I needed. We agree that we will talk about it tomorrow, during the evaluation,

Once at the goal around 0100 AM, a colleague and I get the leader roles. We need to get the group to build a giant chair out of the building materials using only S3 and S4 styles.
The ithers get secretly briefed to be difficult and unmotivated.

Once we explain the task, 1 woman angrily refuses to do another thing before she gets a sip of water. When I blithely take a bottle of water from my backpack and ask her to share it with the others, she forgets her instructions to be difficult, and happily starts handing out water to the thirsty group. 2 women claim aches and pains and an inability to do anymore heavy tasks. I give them my backpack, point out a spot of level ground and ask them if they would care to have a look at the contents and be in charge of the catering? This surprises the heck out of them, and they too forget their instructions to be akward.
The other leader gets on with the rest of the motivational stuff and before we know it, the Giant Chair is standing proudly in the middle of the moonlit glade. The process helped along by her excellent motivational skills, my assisting role and the delicious cups of coffee and tea brewed & enthusiastically handed out by the caterers.
Part of the task was to make everybody sit on the chair, so we make a bit of a silly ceremony out of it, with applause and shouts. After everybody has sat on the Chair, I ask the caterers to break out the miniatures, and everybody starts laughing and joking and exclaiming wonderment at the fact that there is company boozy in the middle of the forest. I invite the trainers to join us, there’s a miniature for them as well, and after a slight hesitation, they do so, expressing great amusement at the fact that we have brought along ‘catering’ and regaling how this has never before happened in all the years they’ve given this training.

The shots do the trick, and, by now having been awake and busy for 19 hours, we dismember the chair, re-assemble the materials and set out on a short-cut direction hotel and bed. Still singing and having a great good time of it, feeling over the moon at having accomplished it all without a bad word having been uttered by anybody, and nobody having flipped nor fallen by the promotional wayside. :ok: :ok:

Evaluating next day, trainer and I admit to having caused a long extra trek through the woods. This gives rise to some good natured ribbing but the conclusion is that I needed that lesson badly ( and so did the trainer).

What I have to learn is not to get stuck in a «Yes - No » situation with a captain. I need to train myself to rise above the level of the factual disagreement and to find out WHY the captain is taking such a vehement stance on a matter.
Learn not to consent-and-secretly-fret, but to find the reason for the underlying lack of confidence from my superior and address that instead of the immediate facts.
That way enabling both myself and the captain to keep face and reach a solution we can both live with .

[Bealzebub]

A case of being able to see the wood for the trees perhaps ? ;)

[Rollingthunder]

Well at least you didn't have to eat any bugs. :yuk:

[johnfairr]

Falps,

Outstanding narrative - great way to greet 2006 - well done

jf

[Captain Stable]

Extremely good narrative, Flaps. Knowing you as I do, I could just see the scenario as it unfolded! :ok: :cool: ;)

On the CRM aspects, is there some room there for that old technique of examining not who is right, but what is right? Having extra input on the keyboard here from MiniStable, so can't stay to debate.

[Out Of Trim]

flapsforty

I'm not crew but, as a humble dispatcher; :suspect: I'm thinking.. Why not ask the senior Pursers with your airline how they handle dealing with these senior Captains.

Is it just down to earning respect and trust as you begin to know each other better or, do they themselves encounter this same lack of trust despite, working closely with them over the years.

They should be able to shed some light on this and give you some pointers to enable you to work in the same way they do.. It's maybe that doing things by the book - Just after a training course is slightly different than how things are usually done in hindsight after gaining a lot of experience in the role.

Perhaps they only share information that these Captains only want to hear, and deal with everything that crops up without going into much detail; absolving the Captain from having to get involved in matters that can be resolved without their direct input; which indirectly takes some pressure off the Captains themselves!

Anyway - Good Luck - I'm sure you'll get these problems squared away in due course.

[Dream Land]

Dreamland, one more post like this one and it will be your last in this forum.

Captain Stable

[sailor]

Flaps,
Great tale! Slightly off track- we had a skipper on shorthaul who had a bad day if he did not manage to make at least one of the CC cry - yes,cry- on his flight.One day on finals he had what appeared to be a heart attack. Copilot calls for ambulance with details, lands aircraft and waves LHS off.
All company CC chip in and send HUGE bunch of flowers to the nurses at the hospital!
Skipper recovers -from severe indigestion it turns out - tries to sue copilot for slow call for ambulance, airport authority for slow provision of ambulance both of which fail; and on seeking to rejoin company has the offer of his services declined. So what goes round comes round as the saying goes.
By the bye not many of us flight deck colleagues had much time for him, and our attempts at sorting his behavior out had no effect; this was about 20 years ago now and I cannot see it occurring in today's more enlightened environment - or so I thought until I came across your post!
I hope things improve rapidly for you in 2006!
If you have a 70 year old skipper with initials M.K. that you recognise from this it must be him!

[Piltdown Man]

Flaps: Deepest sympathy - but this is something you should bring up at your recurrents with your Flightdeck (I presume Mainline have these as well - I'm on the Kindergarden Fleet, KLC). I'm always impressed with the professionalism of the "Four ringers" in the company and I'm really surprised (and disappointed) by the way you are treated.