What are we doing wrong?

[flapsforty]

Course mates and I greatly enjoying the ups and downs in the new Senior Purser job but are in wholehearted and solid agreement that the biggest challenge bar none is how to get along with long haul Captains in such a way as not to impinge on their fragile LH Egos while at the same time not having to feel like a cheap crack-whores after yet another self debasing visit to the cockpit.

What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft?

Not having had to deal with them in the decision making process as an FA, this phenomenon had never been on my radar.
I am entirely aware of and happy with the chain of command. I know all the rules and regs inside out. I wouldn't dream of letting my FAs treat pax with anything less than total service mindedness. I make sure that the FAs check the cockpit every 30 minutes and look after the pilots properly. I take great pains to always ask the pilots if they need anything every time I visit. I keep them informed about what's happening in the cabin so they are not faced with unexpected problems that need instant deciding. I never write something in the Cabin Maintenance Log that is part of the MEL and should go into the AML instead. I respect the captain's authority on and off the aircraft and I take great pains to be pleasant, diplomatic and suitably humble.
Yet some captains STILL lecture us on all of the above.
If the captain is the manager of the flight, the company should bl**dy well teach them some managerial skills!!
After only 5 trips in my new role, already the interaction with these guys is what I dread most.


There must be some other way of dealing with men like this. A way that keeps the atmosphere between the front and the back pleasant and cooperative while not requiring me to quietly sit there like a brainless smiling bimbo taking their humiliating lectures as if it were manna from heaven.

Good Morning Ladies and Gentlemen, my name is Flaps and I'm the Senior Purser on this flight. On behalf of Captain LordoftheSkies welcome aboard. We are here to make your flight as enjoyable as possible but I regret to inform you that my time will be largely spent on keeping the Grizzly in the left hand seat fed watered and appeased enough to keep him off the CC's backs so they can get on with looking after you passengers to the best of their ability.

Advice & suggestions gratefully accepted.

[Caudillo]

What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft?

Absolutely nothing. Although perhaps such an attitude towards them may have some small effect..

[flapsforty]

Hey Caudillo thanks for posting on this. I understand what you mean, but it is not relevant here.
All of us are very recently ex-short haul. We've spent 5 years on the 737 where we have had very pleasant working relationships with our captains.

We expected many things to be difficult in our new jobs, but that it would be the Captains who would be our biggest challenges never crossed our minds.

So there was no negative attitude that could have provoked this.

[Micky]

hi flaps

just wondering, I do not work for an airline so only here say...but I know from a friend of mine who is a dispatcher that told me that as they got a new a/c a few years ago everybody was irritable and aggressiv to each other...
but after about a years time things went back to normal.
Everybody was used to the new operation, and so people started to trust each others abbilities again.
Mayby if you all new to this type of operation everybody wants to do it right, and in that does not realise that they are putting you down.

well I hope you can sort it!


Bye micky

[xetroV]

It could be just the flagship-syndrome; the biggest Boeings somehow tend to attract the biggest gold-barred ego's. (MD-11's, on the other hand, attract easy-going not-so-lonesome cowboys. )

[tallsandwich]

Flaps,

My small contribution:

Guy/Gal gets promoted, worried about doing it well, but also worried about being seen to be doing it well.

Method of ensuring it goes right - he/she makes sure (and does this more often than normal) that everyone else is doing their bit. Comes across as a lecture, and comes too frequently due to concern, and missing confidence.

1st method of response - acknowledgement that you recognise that this (insert the relevant subject of lecture here) is a concern to him/her and that you are equally concerned etc etc. Thank him/her for bring up the subject, it was a good time to discuss it etc...try not to take the piss as this will make it worse.

Subsequent responses as follows: Reconfirm acknowledgement of the importance of subject, ASK if there was something that you did wrong, or could have done better, or was he/she just checking up again to be sure - as this is an important subject?

He/She will get the message that you know your role....and make sure that you enjoy the sound of being told you did nothing incorrectly. Repeat his/her words back to him/her - so he/she knows you listened, and especially make sure he/she hears you repeat the bit about you having not made any mistakes.

Note: Above "could" be applied to you, when you check up on the FAs since you are now promoted. Above also happens in offices shops factories when responsibilities change or are messed up.

Did you say 5 years of FA under your belt? The above should be a piece of cake for you...remember, you are the one in control in this situation.

Good luck!

[Bealzebub]

Clearly you have had a bad day/week, but I am not entirely clear what it is you are saying. You are a new purser with newly promoted Captains ? You are a new Purser with long established Long Haul Captains ? Both perhaps ?

Whatever it is, the statement.. "What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft?" seems a rather rude and sweeping generalisation from one so newly promoted I feel.

Perhaps a more introspective attitude might alleviate your present difficulty. I am happy you "know the rules and regs inside out", because after 27 years in this business I certainly can't make the same claim. Presumably that is why I have to carry so much reference material around with me, and perhaps your Captains are similarly challenged ?

Promotion is a double edge sword. On the one hand it brings greater responsibility and hopefully reward. Equally it presents an entirely new set of challenges and a different position on the established learning curve. As with anything new it can take some considerable time to settle into a comfortable regime, and I would suggest you give it significantly longer than 5 flights. Bear in mind that whatever the reality or whatever your opinion, these same Captains may well have been in this type of operation for many years and it is unlikely they remain there soley by virtue of the attributes you are assigning in your post.

Are you sure it is not a case of having spent a long time in a previous role now making you unsure and uncomfortable in your new one ? As you will know from your passenger management training when dealing with aggresive and aggitated individuals you do not adopt an "attack stragegy" or become overly defensive. However your post albeit directed at your colleagues seems to do just that. Scanning over the post I note (you): all knowing; take great pain ; totally service minded ; informative; humble; pleasant; diplomatic. (They) : Big headed; egotistical; Lordoftheskies ; grizzly. I appreciate this is your rant, but perhaps you see my point ?

Whilst you may have many valid points they are rather drowned in this one sided version of life. Perhaps you should seek to learn ( that isn't unquestioning acceptance ) rather than espouse your frustrations at such an early stage of your new appointment. If you still feel this way in a few months time then you must obviously re-address the situation. In that event communication will be serve you well although hopefully it will present itself in a slightly more mature manner than that shown here.

[flapsforty]

Thank you all for the input so far; very kind that you take the time.
I will certainly think about the things said so far; it all helps the thinking process.

Perhaps some additonal info will clarify a few points.

• I have been working as cabin crew for 24 years. 18 years as long haul FA, 2 years as long haul Assistant Purser responsible for the tourist class and 5 years as Purser responsible for the cabin of a 737. Recently promoted to Senior Purser on the 747, 777 and Airbus.
• Until today I thought that the problem was mine alone and that I obviously needed to give it more time as Bealzebub suggests. That the problems I am experiencing were due to my prickly personality or a surfeit of pride. But today all of us on the Senior Purser course, 12 in all, did a mail update of our on the line experiences so far, and it emerges that all 12 of us are experiencing our biggest challenge in the field of how to deal with our Captains. Which is why I dare to make such 'sweepong statements' after only 5 flights. 5 times 12 makes 60 trips after all.
• Our Chief pilot has 2 years ago started a project to stimulate the Captains to become managers of the flight without actually providing the Captains with any management training. This has apparently lead to the current situation where many able pilots to the best of their ability try to mange the whole flight process without having the managerial skills to do so effectively.
• The problem is not that I get into disagreements with Captains because I don't. I don't think arguments are conducive to a safe and pleasant operation and I have no wish to 'score points' off Captains. But having to subjugate myself to humiliating lectures on subjects I know as least as much about as the Captain does, and having to conform to his wishes with good grace while knowing for sure that he is mistaken, is making me (and many of my colleagues) feel like sh!t.
• The comapny pays a lot of money to get us trained to a high standard. They then pay us a respectable salary to manage to the cabin under the Captains responsibilty. To then have us turned into angry frustrated people by the very colleagues with whom we need to cooperate most closely seems to me a monumental waste of effort and resources.

And yes it probably sounds conceited, but on each of the past 5 trips so far it has happened that I have sweetly conformed to the Captain's view of some cabin regulation while knowing (and afterwards being able to prove) that his memory/understanding was wrong and mine was correct.

I know my cabin stuff as wel as most Captains know their pilot stuff. I am happy to come next in line to a 20 year SO and have never had a problem with understanding or adhering to the chain of command.
What I do have a problem with is being managed in an inept way by chaps who know little or nothing about how to manage people, who know less about cabin rules and regs than I do and who do not for one moment even contemplate the fact that this might be the case.



Bealzebub I do take your points, I really do, but do you take mine?
Frustated from Norway

[Bealzebub]

Yes now that you have come down from 35,000 ft ( so to speak) I do indeed take your points.

I remember as a new F/O talking to others on my intake, and like yourself we also all had the same names we found it difficult to get along with ( I am sure that came to more than 60 trips as well), but after time there developed a better understanding of their personalities and a better understanding of the interaction between those personalities and the role of said individuals. That is not to say that I would invite them all around for dinner even now, but a better understanding provides a greater degree of self confidence and less opportunity for overt frustration.

I think it is often the case that our personalities may not change, but as we don another set of clothes, stripes or badges other peoples perception of our personalities changes. This coupled with the natural uncertainty that any change of role (promotion) brings with it, is often bound to cause an upset (imbalance) to us as individuals. Here we are moving from a role that we are experienced and comfortable with, into a new role frought with new challenges and responsibility. It may be the case, or we may perceive, that others are not being as helpful or co-operative as they might. It is also natural ( even if we are reluctant to admit it) that there is a real fear of failure in being able to adapt to the new role and the leadership that others may look for in us. Sometimes others may intentionally or unconsciously challenge us in our new role to see how we handle it. Their perception of how we respond to that challenge may well influence their future attitude and behaviour towards us. By way of example the last line of my previous response may well have been such a challenge, and if so you responded very well by not rising to it Which I perceive as a more realistic insight into your character than you might have actually portrayed by your first post.

At the end of the day I think that be it a new company, a new promotion, a new fleet, it takes time for us to understand and appreciate the new situation and personalities. It is a mistake to think that things will necessarily be the same or even similar. Give it time and settle into your new role in your own time. Not every body you meet will be helpful, charming or right, but until you have found yourself comfortable and experienced in the role, take the time and apply the necessary filters to listen rather than react to a situation.

Finally I should mention that although this is clearly only my opinion I am a long haul Captain, so of course I am right !

[flapsforty]

Of course you are Sir, thank you Sir!

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I couldn't agree more with you about the "but until you have found yourself comfortable and experienced in the role, take the time and apply the necessary filters to listen rather than react to a situation.". Fact is, with this whole thread I am trying to f igure out just how to go about buying myself that time without getting totally frustrated by, and rebellious towards, the very captains I will work with for the rest of my career.

Exactly because I do not react but quietly and pleasantly let them pour all their 'wisdom' over my poor head, do I get so frustrated and annoyed.

If i told them what I thought of their methods, or would point out chapter and verse where they are mistaken, I would feel better but harmony would go out the window, and that's not what I'm after. So I don't.
But by keeping mum and conforming for the sake of harmony I come home feeling angry and humiliated.
Catch 22.

So I come here looking for some wisdom in how to deal with this situation in a way that saves me (and the others) from turning into bitching uncooperative bats before we have even settled into our new jobs.

Again, much appreciate the input.

[Bealzebub]

Yes! But of course that is what home is for. To share your frustrations with your nearest and dearest.

Many is the time I have sought sympathy and succour from the other half after a particularly frustrating day with those Pursers who will insist on coming in in the middle of a particularly protracted clearance to inform me about something "vital", or want re-inforcement of some or other cabin matter that I am happier leaving to their own judgement, rather than having to recollect some company edict that I may have read in the distant past somewhere. Cabin crew always seem to have a veritable "Doomsday book" of endless edicts and pronouncements bestowed upon them, that rarely (thank god!) ( and please don't think the lack of capital G in god was an oversight), make there way into my in-tray. Anyway I digress.

As the other half perhaps unfortunately is also cabin crew, she seems strangely reluctant to universely offer the desired level of agreement and sympathy that I may be seeking. Though this sometimes results in the children retracting their necks and creeping off to any other room with a working TV set or computer console, to the background noise of embattled parents, it does occaisonaly result in some subsequent introspection, though almost never an admission of fault on my part of course.

If you have teenage children then you are indeed at an advantage, since it really will not take long for you to appreciate that however frustrating things may be at work, nothing but nothing could be worse than this !!!

[BlueEagle]

Flaps, would it be fair to say that you actually knew most of the 737 captains fairly well, either by flying with them a lot or possibly knowing them when they were FOs on other fleets and that over the years you have been able to build up a familiarity with those crews that is, at the moment, totally lacking among the long haul captains most of whom you are meeting for the first time?

If that is the case, or part of it, then time is the only cure and it will take longer than usual as you won't see these captains so frequently as you did on short haul but in the meantime you will be gaining in confidence and possibly feeling a little more relaxed and less on edge.

Is there a history of recently appointed Chief Pursers coming straight off course and being rather, 'full of it', that the captain would be aware of and possibly reacting too?

I think, as I mentioned, that you have to give it more time, you are all having the same problem which points to the Pursers rather than the captains having a problem, easily identified as inexperience in the role which can only get better trip by trip
Best of Luck,
BE.

[Ignition Override]

Flaps Forty-I feel sorry for you. The hardest working pilots at my company are the First Officers who fly the old 100-122-seat jets, with NO automation, through, or around, various weather on short legs in crowded airspace and up to five, six or seven legs per duty period (often no rest during 12-14 hours). You should see the work when combined with de-icing procedures and landings on gusty, slippery runways in the winter.

And so a number of your widebody Captains somehow forget about their "roots" (previous aircraft positions)?

You might figure out some method to remind the most puffed-up "blow-hards", as to just who and where the hardest-working pilots often are-in the smaller, oldest planes, flying at least five approaches (or more) per day, and at times with RVR often near minimums. And the smaller the plane, generally speaking, the smaller the airport and the most uncontrolled (few updated weather observations) late at night, never mind the unforecast fog and snow. Give them a copy of this with my regards.

As a fellow pilot, who has very clever insight, recently told me, "pilots sometimes look forward to going to work, so that they can BE Somebody", which means somebody important. And many prefer to never remove their uniform hat (even when the company decided that it is not required): they probably have very limited authority over their private lives at home, and so therefore...

Isn't authority and a vertical chain-of-command the subject here?

What regulation or company policy states that Command ( even in an airplane) requires total authority and unquestioning obedience?
What rule or reg. states that the pilot in the left seat (who often has far less transoceanic experience than many of his/her First Officers or Flight Engineers who flew the P-3, C-130, DC-8 charter or especially the C-141/C-5 type of missions) must micromanage?

It is most unlikely that a Captain, or his XO on a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier (formerly a Naval Aviator) must instruct all of his subordinates as to just how to run their departments and deal with the various personalities. If this is the case, then why is it so difficult on just one airplane?

[BlueEagle]

Don't think we are talking about a few old "blow-hards" here IO.

Written as it is, we are talking about sixty crusty old blow-hards who have just come in contact with the latest from Chief Purser school. That leads me to think that the latest from CP School have just had to leave the very top of a very tall tree to join at the bottom of the most senior tree in the forest and a few egos have been scorched, perhaps?

I believe that given time mountains will become molehills.

[BOAC]

Firstly I speak with no experience of l/haul command, just s/haul, but sometimes that involves going 'on tour' for a few days with the same crew, and although the problems are essentially smaller, they are little different in reality, despite the sometimes portrayed 'hype'. Indeed on some occasions due to time pressures s/haul can claim a more challenging task.

I agree with 'all the above', but an alarm bell rings faintly in the background. Should we be reading 'behind the lines' rather than 'between' as we are?

No disrespect to Flaps, but the initial reaction is 'she is just having a bad day?'. Now on closer inspection we find 100% of the course of the same mind-set. I have seen this elsewhere, the great ?perceived? divide at the f/deck door, the 'struggle' for supremacy between senior c/crew and Cpts.

Not good, and if we are all such 'gods' in the LHS, then surely it is something we should be capable of sorting out? After all, no-one else is 'in charge' of the flight nor has the overall responsibility. Are we all 'mature' enough to both recognise and defuse this small bomb? The LAST thing any of us need is a 'reluctance', real or sub-conscious, for the c/crew to be at ease and to exchange information freely with us. That adversly affected at least one UK accident.

It is an interesting topic Flaps has raised, and one which would benefit all of us with further exploration. I would like to hear from some 'seasoned' l/haul senior crew. Does the 'rift' worsen or improve with time/experience as suggested above? Is a less-than-ideal stalemate developed with the metal barrier in place and 'sod them, let them get on with it?' If so, Flaps and her coursemates will settle down to that philosophy and 'all will be well'?? Is that where Blue Eagle and Bealzebub are pointing the course? Is there a deeper problem? Can/should the 'god' help a bit here? We should be easily able to recognise both 'new' seniors and the possibility of 'scorched egos' - why can WE not handle it? Who is in command and has THE responsibilty? There is no-one else. Is it sufficient to say 'oh, they'll get over it'? The question really is what is there 'over it'?

Perhaps it IS the airlines' fault? Is enough emphasis placed on teamwork and leadership as in the military world? Is it the perceived idea that the Captain must 'run the show' rather than make quietly sure that the 'show runs'? I'd be interested to hear from marine Captains/senior ships' crews. How is it there?

Gentlemen (and Ladies - is it a gender thing? ) of the LHS - are WE doing our best?

[tallsandwich]

Some (most) people are just bad a management or leadership duties, and no amount of training will change that. It is typical of organisations to promote those who are techncial profcient and then expect them to be good at holding a team together. Sending them on training only makes matters worse as there is an expectation that somehow this fixes the problem.

I agree with flaps that being good at flying a plane is no qualification for being a good leader, and sadly, waiting for training will not help. However, someone has to be in-charge, and that person had better be able to delegate.

Faced with a poor leader, it is the only the actions of those under him/her that affect the outcome, so Flaps should really be bitching that the company did not train her on how to manage her new "bad" manager.

[Hawk]

God.. Madam Flaps. You ask such authentic and important questions.

You have had some very good replys already here. Wish I could come up with some strategies off the top of my head. Give me a week to think about it.

One of the difficulties is the constant change of technical and cabin crew that a Senior Pursar has to manage.
I'll come back to it.

[xetroV]

What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft?

Flaps 40, this question suggests that you have actually witnessed this transformation from easy-going pilot to B.H.E.B., but after reading your other posts, I wonder if you actually knew these guys when they were still driving 737's. Perhaps you just encountered several pilots who may have been B.H.E.B's long before they got that promotion. Fact is: there are cultural differences between aircraft divisions, even within the same company; my earlier tongue-in-cheek reply about the flagship-syndrome did have a serious undertone. I have never once felt belittled when I was a second officer flying the MD11, but I know some horror-stories by friends of mine who flew a different aircraft type. Could be down to individual pigheads, but it could also be a deeper-rooted attitude within the division as such. Perhaps the chief pilots of these wide-body aircraft try to push the 'manager of the flight' issue just a little harder than their 737 collegue, who knows?

The attitude of these pilots can also be caused by bad experiences on their part. In my experience there is quite a large variation in managerial skills of junior and senior pursers alike, even when they have all been subjected (in theory at least) to stringent selection criteria. If only all people were as enthousiastic and dedicated as you seem to be, life would be much easier. Believe it or not: even as a second officer I have still had to tell some very senior pursers not to write down airworthiness complaints in the cabin maintenance log... go figure!

Also, I imagine that quite a few of these 'senior senior' pursers are not at all happy with the chain-of-command (sometimes even being B.H.E.B.'s themselves). In fact, the captain being 'manager of the flight' is not a new concept at all, it's been this way ever since the Wright Flyer first took off. The very reason for this concept to be highlighted (again) is that over the years many parties involved in the execution of a flight tried to capture some of the captain's decision making powers, although it is still the captain who ultimately will be held accountable if things go wrong. Saying the captain is the 'manager of the flight' is just re-iterating long established rules.

Now don't get me wrong: these issues are no excuse whatsoever for captains to treat you like a child! These are just some observations by me, trying to figure out why such things happen.

When I, in my role as a first officer, experience a captain who constantly tries to explain the obvious, I usually interpret this as someone trying his best to give me good advise (maybe to compensate for his/her own insecurity, or perhaps just out of genuine consideration for a junior collegue). Such comments may seem belittling if you already know the story, but on the other hand I know I try to give such advise myself if I am flying with a less experienced captain. Most of the time this initial assessment of the situation turns out to be right, and only very seldomly I meet a truly B.H.E.B. captain. But even then I am careful in picking my battles: I'll let him discuss his pet-issues as long as he keeps it safe; if not, I'll tell him.

In your case, I'd surely tell the captain if he is interfering to a point where you can't do your job right. If that doesn't help, and if safety is not being compromised, I would do what he told you, but write a report about it later. And if he is just being an asshole... well, I wouldn't waste my precious energy for that.

[flapsforty]

In order not lose the plot here and to aid structured thinking (mine that is ) I have made a list with the 3 categories of possible causes proposed on the thread so far.
List of proposed solutions will be next.

Possible causes:[list=1][*]The airline places too little emphasis on teamwork and leadership & doesn't provide joint CRM trainingProbable[*]The airline stimulates Capts to be real Managers of the Flight without providing them with appropriate managerial training Probable[*]The constant change of cockpit and cabin crew Possible[*]New type of operation for all concernedNot applicable
[*]SPs own attitude towards Captains Not applicable at this stage yet [*]SP has spent a long time in a previous role and is now unsure and uncomfortable in new one
Possible[*]SP objetcs to being talked down to by Capts on subjects SP actually knows more about than Capt Probable[*]SP's time in new job too short to understand and appreciate the new situation and personalities
Possible[*]SP tends to disturb Capt with irrelevant non-issues while Capt is busy with important matters.
Possible but I know better than that! [*]SPs knew 737 pilots well but do not know LH Capts Just the opposite; we have been with the company for about the same time as these Capts and we know them rather well from all our years on LH[*]SPs are newbies and full of it Possible but from what I have seen, all of us are fairly humble and know that we are no more than a small cog in the whole operation[*]SPs have just had to leave the very top of a very tall tree to join at the bottom of the most senior tree in the forest and a few egos have been scorched Unlikely since the 737 was no tall tree, both the pilots and ourselves worked like dogs and never felt in the least glamorous or imporatant.[*]SPs are unhappy with the chain-of-command Not applicable
[*]Flagship-syndrome & Capts' inability to contemplate the fact that SPs are competent & qualified in their own field Seems likely[*]Newly promoted Capt worried about being seen to be doing it well.Not applicable[*]CC have bestowed on them endless lists of doomsday edicts that never make it to the Capt's in-tray so the Capt doesn't know about them Information that touches both is distributed to both groups, so not applicable [*]Capts can 'be somebody important' at work and are full of it
Possible[*]Captains' inability to recognise both 'new' seniors and the possibility of 'scorched egos'
Possible[*]Bad past experiences on the pilot's part
Possible[*]Captain lacks understanding of situational management and has adopted a 'one style fits all' way of management that fits his own personality rather than the level of development of the SP he's managing.
Seems likely [/list=1]

[LanFranc]

Q.
What is that changes many perfectly normal, socially skilled and easy to get along with 737 pilots into Big Headed Egotistical Bastards as soon as they get the command over a Wide Body aircraft?

A.
A purser like you!

While I don't "know" you, I know your type. Bitch and moan in a public forum, with anonymity, seeking sympathy and validation under the guise of looking for a "solution." Your perceived problem, I suggest, stems from you and not the Bastards in the left seat. Might I suggest you walk a mile in our shoes? Failing that, an honest and frank discussion with said Bastards regarding your hurt feelings. I think most of them will make some accommodation for your apparently more needy ego.

Your comments are not helpful and contribute nothing to the discussion. The post qualifies as a personal attack something we do not allow on this Site. You might like to reconsider.
Hawk