Nice 25 Oct

[omega]

Last tuesday morning 25/10 (approx 0900 UTC) I was at the holding point for 04R at Nice. The aircraft ahead was an N-registered, white body 737(probably corporate). He was cleared for takeoff, commenced his takeoff roll and appeared to be well on the way when ATC said 'takeoff clearance cancelled' or words to that effect. He aborted takeoff and asked for the reason a number of times without response. He was then told to clear the runway and go to ground. There was single runway operation at the time so the aircraft on finals had to be sent around.
Does anyone know why his takeoff clearance was cancelled at that late stage?

[Eva San]

Because Fraise!

If you cared enough to know the reason of a non event , maybe you should have listened to the ground frequency !:}

[JW411]

The expression "nosey b*gger" comes to mind!

[Avman]

Considering this question comes from a professional who can gauge that the take-off clearance was cancelled well into the roll, I as ATC would also be very curious to know why. Consequently, the above two answers are weak and immature! Furthermore, with an iminent departure, I would imagine omega had more important things to do than tune in to ground.

Evasan and JW411 : nul points :mad:

[JW411]

There are a million good reasons why someone wanted that aircraft kept on the ground and I think it is you who is showing a degree of naiveté.

Someone in authority wanted that aircraft stopped and that is what happened.

Perhaps they hadn't paid the parking fees!

[Avman]

Yeah, so wait until the guy is (according to the poster) well into the roll to do this. Come on JW411, you're trying to save face for your cr@p posting now.

[Dave]

Heard a story of a 737 at Glasgow a couple of years ago..... ATC called the aircraft to "stop immediately" at about 120kts..... the reason? Inbound holding delays to LHR!

[qwertyuiop]

How many people would stop in this situation? Once through 80kts I don't think I would.

[barit1]

Tower better have a DAMN GOOD reason for this stunt.

I have heard of airlines with a "sterile cockpit" protocol who intentionally turn down the rx audio at throttle advance and don't turn it back up until gear is up, simply to keep focused on the job at hand.

[Lord Fulmer]

As reported by a colleague who was there at the time, the wonderful Nice controllers told Chuck in the Corporate to "Expedite Take Off! " as he was already rolling.
Chuck, quite rightly, queries this and thinks there is a problem stops. Report over.

[unablereqnavperf]

Its clear form his question that omega is a concerned proffesional asking questions as indeed I would had i witnessed something clearly unusual. In his situation I would do the same. Like every other proffesional pilot should do if I see something out of the ordinary I ask why, as that is what keeps me and my SLF alive!!

JW411 you must be related to the other idiot with a similar call sign!!

[Doug the Head]

I have heard of airlines with a "sterile cockpit" protocol who intentionally turn down the rx audio at throttle advance and don't turn it back up until gear is up, simply to keep focused on the job at hand. Now that´s scary!!!:\

Back to topic, NCE has always been a bit of a special airport. ATC are known to issue strange clearances and their situational awareness of isn´t always the best resulting in lousy radar vectors. To make matters worse it´s your typical French airport, so that means lot´s of bla bla in French to helicopters buzzing just south of the runway axis below 500´.

All the above, combined with the high terrain surrounding the airport and the sometimes violent weather makes it a nice recipe for disaster.

[FlapsOne]

So was it 'take off clearance cancelled' or 'expedite take off' ?? They are hardly similar!

(what the hell could 'expedite take off' mean once you had started the take off roll??????????).

[A4]

I concur with everything Doug the Head says. Anyone familar with Nice would also appreciate that the consequences of botched reject at Nice would result in the aircraft going straight into the sea.

On the whole the ATC at Nice is ok, but on more than one occasion I've been left in the lurch and then "cleared for a visual" - in other words, whoops - sort it out yourself :hmm:

A4

[farmer jo]

I have had take off clearance cancelled at the last minute and told to return to stand at Nice ! It was at the request of Customs who are renowned at Nice for trying to claim VAT (TVA?) on Foreign registered Corporate aircraft operating in EU ! After sitting with both engines running the customs decided to turn up and inspect required paperwork, and then go back to there shed disappointed. I know of aircraft impounded at Nice without proper paperwork !!

ATP

[Eva San]

As reported by a colleague who was there at the time, the wonderful Nice controllers told Chuck in the Corporate to "Expedite Take Off! " as he was already rolling.

So it looks as if someone who wasn't there has better info than the one supposed to be at the holding point ! Strange isn't it ?

Then it's the end of the story, but anyway ... I sort of agree with the nosey bugger thing ! If there's something wrong with the ATC, there are some more official channels than this journos-infested web site.

In answer to all the Blahblah about stopping or not or ending up in the water, I think it's pretty much straighforward : below V1 you stop and after... And the ATC did not ask him to stop he did it on his own ( or so I read above).

And now to all those who are unhappy about the Nice ATC I suggest you come to visit us sometimes...We have to deal every day with some environmental limitations that somehow designed the procedures and I could give you a few examples of troubles it gives us but I think this is not the place.

Now I agree that Nice is a very special airport (http://www.niceairport.org/default_eng.htm) in its configuration close to town and mountains. And that is why crews should be prepared for it which is obviously not always the case and I personnaly think that the use of Nice should be restricted and linked to a special qualification and not only preparation.

[the_hawk]

So it looks as if someone who wasn't there has better info than the one supposed to be at the holding point !

I don't get this one who are you refering to?

And the ATC did not ask him to stop he did it on his own

So ATC did tell him to "Expedite Take Off!" as he was already rolling? Or something completely different, if so what? I don't get this too because it will always be the pilot who stops the plane not ATC, but what was it that made the pilot stop? That is the question here.

[T Hairy Henry]

OK OK OK!!

If you must know.............the pilot left the iron on!!!!

[farmer jo]

Eva San.
The problem with Nice is like the rest of France you conduct most of your ATC in French, instead of Standard English !! If as you say the ATC told him to expedite his take off, it was in such bad English that 'Chuck' didn't understnd the non standard instruction !! You guys had probaly spoken to A/C on final in French so the guy had no mental picture as to what was going on ?????? I suggest you people at Nice go and learn English and then use it ?????????It would help improve safety at nice a lot !

ATP

[Topcover]

The knock on effect of that, is when French Light GA pilots fly around English speaking areas, many of them are just barely able to speak ATC English. Anything else and they don't understand.

Experienced this on many occasions from a controller's side (without radar to assist) not good.

[Eva San]

The problem with Nice is like the rest of France you conduct most of your ATC in French, instead of Standard English !! If as you say the ATC told him to expedite his take off, it was in such bad English that 'Chuck' didn't understand the non standard instruction !! You guys had probaly spoken to A/C on final in French so the guy had no mental picture as to what was going on ?????? I suggest you people at Nice go and learn English and then use it ?????????It would help improve safety at nice a lot !

ATP

.

It looks like your spoken english is better than your read one: I've never said that the ATC told that yank to expedite his take off. Unlike you, I'm not assuming anything specific that would help me prove my point I 'm just taking for granted what Lord Fulmer wrote...because I was not there and I won't even bother trying to look for some info on this so called stunt.

Now thanks for your concern about our english level and that's very kind of you towards somebody who is making the effort to answer in your language !
Now if you allow me, excuse my French I will just suggest that : Va te faire voir chez les grecs !:mad: :mad:

[Farrell]

Oh la, Eva San!

Jouez la boule, pas le joueur!! :p

[126,7]

Eva San
Wouldn't you file reports of aborted take-offs at Nice ATC ? Reports get filed at most other aerodomes when something "non-standard" happens. Surely it would be really easy for you to find out what happened here. Why would a B737 abort take-off? Was it customs, or did ATC cock up? If customs asked for an aircraft to abort, I as the ATC would really think twice before I consider giving such an instruction........

[Arkroyal]

Eva San

Don't forget that Nice has a perfectly normal ILS approach available to 04, which would need no special training.

But, of course, you don't use it as it would mean a little bit of noise for the rich people on Cap d'Antibes (who are probably the users of the corporate jets).

[Porky Speedpig]

Ark,

As a part-time resident I can assure you that perversely there is more noise generated on the Cap when Rivieras are in force rather than the ILS to 04L, especially from the "home team" Airbus guys who are inclined to see how close they can come to cutting the corner without getting a bollocking! BA and Easy seem much better at track keeping towards Cagnes.
The BA, Delta and Emirates 767s seem to do the best job - thanks guys!

By the way, I can assure you that very few of us aspire to corporate jet status, you must be confusing us with Cap Martin and Cap Ferrat!

[Doug the Head]

...who is making the effort to answer in your language ! What do you mean with "your languange?" Why do you assume that everybody is a native English speaker?

Let´s be honest, English is the aviation language and the appaling level of English spoken by French pilots and ATC is a serious safety issue. "Making an effort" just isn´t good enough! I´ve heard many stories of pilots needing assistance from French ATC and the reply was that they didn´t understand.

From my personal experience in France: sick passenger on board so we asked ATC to have a doctor meet us at the aircraft upon arrival.

ATC: "Are you declaring an Emergency?"

Us: "Negative, we just need medical assistance when we reach our parking position."

ATC: "errrrrrrrrrr, say again!"

Us: "Negative, we just need medical assistance when we reach our parking position."

ATC: "errrrrrr I don´t understand."

Us: "we need a doctor after we land and reach the gate."

ATC: "errrrrrrrrrrrr???"

At this point a French pilot overhearing our struggle interveined and translated everything in French.

Final result: a lot of additional (and unnecessary) stress and....of course no doctor when we reached the parking stand. :rolleyes:
Luckily it was only a minor problem so the passenger could wait for medical assistance to arrive but it makes you wonder what will happen if you have an engine on fire and you need some radar vectors to the nearest ILS! :\

[Eva San]

Wouldn't you file reports of aborted take-offs at Nice ATC ? Reports get filed at most other aerodomes when something "non-standard" happens. Surely it would be really easy for you to find out what happened here. Why would a B737 abort take-off? Was it customs, or did ATC cock up?

You want more info than already given by that Lord Fulmer guy, you go ahead and search for it. I might take a closer look at it but don't count on me to post anything in here...

Don't forget that Nice has a perfectly normal ILS approach available to 04, which would need no special training.

But, of course, you don't use it as it would mean a little bit of noise for the rich people on Cap d'Antibes (who are probably the users of the corporate jets).


First point, do you think that we controllers chose to design this riviera approach ? You don't have environmental limitations in your place, good for you ! But we do and we have to cope with it everyday . What do you think is easier for a controller: to bring some unfamiliar pilot to understand what this approach is or to put him on to the ILS ?

Second point, what do you suggest for runway 22, that we only accept BAe146 or other capable aircrafts on a let's say 6° ILS ?

Obviously you're not so familiar with the geography of Nice. The Riviera approach causes much more nuisance to the Cap d'Antibes than the ILS 04. The ILS 04 path goes over the city of Antibes which is a much more crowded but less wealthy place than the Cap itself. Let me tell you that even if the prices are quite high in Antibes, they nowhere quite compare to the ones in the Cap d'Antibes.

What do you mean with "your language?" Why do you assume that everybody is a native English speaker?

Let´s be honest, English is the aviation language and the appaling level of English spoken by French pilots and ATC is a serious safety issue. "Making an effort" just isn´t good enough! I´ve heard many stories of pilots needing assistance from French ATC and the reply was that they didn´t understand.

All right ,I should have probably said English instead, but hey nobody's perfect !
And let's be honest, English is not the only aviation language (ever heard of Icao languages ? )...

I agree that making an effort just isn't good enough, but you probably turn a few examples in what you consider to be an undeniable truth ... You always remember the bad points and then you forget that the rest of the time everything goes well.
I 've had some non native english speaker ( obviously not french) almost unable to understand a few basics orders (headings, altitudes...)and yet I don't consider it as a general rule for those pilots. We do have some weaknesses but we're working on it !

[bgt66]

Hey Doug, i completely accept the fact that French ATC's english could be better, but actually it's the same for numerous non-english native speakers.
That's why we (are supposed to?) use standard phraseology.

errr... for your personnal example, have you ever heard the expression "Pan pan medical" til today?

[dunadan06]

Just for information:
The Riviera procedure is not used to protect the rich "Cap d'Antibes" but to protect the middle class downtown.
In fact, the Riviera produces a higher noise level along the "rich" area than the ILS.

A "classic" reason for the ATC (at least in Nice) to ask an acft to "expedite T/O" would be that... it just takes to long!
It never stops surprising new atcos, coming from bigger airport (CDG or ORY), to see that what goes smoothly in Paris, always seems to take close to eternity in Nice. When we ask, prior to the T/O clearance, if an acft is "ready for T/O", and the answer is "Yes", then we expect the guy in the cockpit to release the breaks within a few secs of the clearance, not 1 minute latter (I know that sound stupid, but...)!
If we wait 1 min, then ask to "expedite", chances are the message will be sent when (or just afer) the T/O run starts.

Like Eva San just said, we just append to have some limitations (mountains, cities, rich peoples... being french), and are trying to do our best.

[chiglet]

dun06,
Happens everywhere....."Cleared Immediate TO"....."Sorry I need 90secs" or whatever :mad:
watp,iktch

[sikeano]

There are a million good reasons why someone wanted that aircraft kept on the ground and I think it is you who is showing a degree of naiveté.

Someone in authority wanted that aircraft stopped and that is what happened.

Perhaps they hadn't paid the parking fees!

no ken is in nice airport now it is congestion charge the yank did not pay his and bang look what happened:ok:

[dunadan06]

chiglet,

what I'm reffering to is not the:

"not ready on reaching" type of crew, but the:

"I'm not really ready, but as I don't want to loose 2 min waiting for the next landing (310m between RWYs), I say that I am even if I still need another minute".

[Willie Everlearn]

Just curious.
Despite language...
understandings and misunderstandings aside...
whose flying the aeroplane?
ATC or the designated flight crew?
If this aircraft and crew were required by ATC, Customs, some huffy VIP...whatever, would completion of a normal circuit to a normal landing not have been safer?

I'm also curious to know why a corporate operation flying multi million dollar aircraft for a presumably 'highly paid, responsible for 1,000s of employees and multi million dollar deals' CEO doesn't know his/her ACTUAL weight?

One last question, has the flying of aeroplanes truly been left to a bunch of trained 'monkeys' as several friends so regularly and insultingly point out?

Curious minds wish to know.

:confused:

[the_hawk]

If ATC tells me to abort takeoff and I'm well below V1 how could I know that taking off is safer?

What do you mean with this question about the weight?

Last question: answer No.

[ATCO1962]

Two things;

When I was trained many moons ago, we were advised to issue an abort instruction only if the takeoff roll was a few seconds old and the aircraft's inertia hadn't had a chance to build up to a significant degree. Admittedly, that was a judgement call, but it made sense to me. If the aircraft had reached a point in its takeoff where you, as an ATCO, couldn't easily determine whether an abort should be issued, simply advise the pilot as clearly as possible of the threat to the aircraft and leave it in his/her hands to decide what to do.

Secondly, if you want an expeditious departure (a) ascertain that the aircraft is ready immediate and (b) when the takeoff clearance is issued, clarify it with "Do not stop on the runway, cleared immediate takeoff!!".

[dunadan06]

ATCO1962, I would assume that using this phraseo would be enough:

CTL: P4*** are you ready for immediate T/O?
PIL: P4***: Affirm, ready immediate
CTL: P4***, cleared immediate T/O RWY...


As for the first part of your answer, I do agry.

Only in that case we don't really know what took place! (and probably never will)

[ATCO1962]

duna,

You're absolutely right; that phraseology should suffice, but often wasn't enough. The qualifier seemed to emphasise that the urgency of a speedy takeoff was paramount. Once I started using it, I can't remember having a problem.

As for issuing an abort to an aircraft doing 100kts+ (if this was the case), you're starting to venture towards V1 territory anyway, so why get yourself and the pilot into a very sticky situation?