The Abu Dhabi Britannic [Archive]

cheerylittlebottom

18th Oct 2005, 07:21

"Spoken like true manager, ANSA"

Again, we're going to the same place that we were before - anyone who's positive or sees things at a different angle get the same old rhetoric.

Give it a rest, ferret, your views really don't hold much water anymore as you have lost all credibility here.

ANSA - Good on you for sticking to your guns and taking the sensible route of staying positive and enjoying your time here.

Yes, work wise, all is not as well as it should be but the worm is turning. Changes are in the wind and good ones are going to be happening. It's inevitable. Those that have stuck it out will reap the rewards.

This forum is a great place to let off a bit of steam and for chipper discussions on how we can change things for the better of all. But lets face it guys, do you really believe that manangement read this and make changes accordingly? Hardly! (Ok, we know of at least one who reads it - that was a disaster waiting to happen)

That's all I have to say on this matter for now. Let's try and keep
ol' Pinipeds thread going with the good stuff as long as possible. It should make for interesting reading with all the stuff going on with the new contract. Lets speculate and guesstimate. Any opening bets??

Perhaps our friend Foxy has a comment or two to share on recent developements?? :ooh:

AirNoServicesAustralia

18th Oct 2005, 08:37

This whole "spoken like a true manager" and "do you consider yourself management already" rubbish is really old. Doing courses and trying to get somewhere career-wise last I checked wasn't a crime, and hopefully will avoid me ending up "drifting on the tides of fate", as I prefer to be in control of my own destiny.

As I have said all along, I will wait and see what is on offer, and make my choice then. I am just glad that I am still in a position to choose.

cat man do

18th Oct 2005, 12:13

Yes ferris, it is a forum, a forum for intelligent constructive DISCUSSION. You continue to rant and rave and pointing fingers at anyone who doesn't agree with you. Grow up, opinions are exactly that and if some one does not agree with you it doesn't mean that they are managment. Your continued rantings (both here and at home) only makes many consider whether you have management envy?

Can't you move forward, get on with your life Dude? :confused:

yakkity yak

18th Oct 2005, 13:41

People,

ANSA and Cheery bum......why do I detect in your mutterings a hint of jealousy or envy towards ferris and those who are leaving or left?:confused: :confused:

I work in the gulf (it would appear for worse at this time) and yes there is plenty wrong with the place and employer(s), but where we and I dare say you come from is a democracy (unlike the UAE) where freedom of speech is part of our culture (not Serco's or the Gulf's) and those that you claim are "pissing on our parade" are only exercising their god given right to express themselves, whether it be having some fun at our expense or actually attempting to add something to the discussion (which may actually benefit those of us who stay) or just sticking the knife in.

It should make no difference to you what they really have to say especially if you are happy with your lot and your decision to stay (unless you are really envious of these others and the fact they are not there or going). And it is irrelevant as to whether these bods can work back in the Gulf or elsewhere again. Don't fall into the Serco/Gulf way of thinking and try to stifle discussion/expression.

I can see why Ferris sees a management line in your tone, stifle discussion at all costs.

Be a man and take what mud others throw in the discussion and be happy in your own decision to stay, that is if you really happy with that decision----- maybe you cant really decide at all????:{ :{ :{

At least Ferris has made his and will be returning home with nothing firm and that is a harder decision than to stay for unknown prospects, and I think this is why you are pissed off with others making comment because they have been decisive.

Whatever my decision, I will be happy with it and will be decisive with it, just like a good ATC should be.

Chow

cheerylittlebottom

18th Oct 2005, 14:00

why do I detect in your mutterings a hint of jealousy or envy towards ferris and those who are leaving or left?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (breathe)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

AirNoServicesAustralia

18th Oct 2005, 14:03

Absolutely ecstatic about being here. I see great opportunity here, and whilst I could go back tomorrow into a job (unlike some) I choose not to. Interesting choice of words YY, in saying Ferris chose to leave??????

So in short not jealous of being unemployed at all. Very happy with my lot, and just sick of all the negative rubbish from people not working here anymore. But thanks for asking.

AirNoServicesAustralia

19th Oct 2005, 08:25

I've had enough! Going underground - never to be seen again

That makes it the 4th time now you have said that. For everyones sake I hope you keep your word this time.

But since you have other names you post under (Seatstrap??), we will still have to put up with your rubbish.

Why I think things are improving, is because there is a shortage of controllers the world over, and so as the usual places of recruitment get short, they raise the salary, as they raise the salary, so too does the Middle East to attract recruits. Supply and Demand. You are dreaming if you think PPRUNE and the rants of a few negative extremists has anything to do with the improvement of the package about to be offered.

ferris

19th Oct 2005, 08:56

ANSA.
Firstly, it's disappointing to see the comments you are putting up here.
If you think that neither I, nor the dawg, had any influence over what happened to us, you are a little naive.
Secondly, neither the dawg or I are unemployed.You are dreaming if you think PPRUNE and the rants of a few negative extremists has anything to do with the improvement of the package about to be offered. Well, I'll just keep dreaming then. By your own admission, the only reason your conditions will improve is if they can't staff the place. Other posters were trying to make the point that people leaving actually strengthens your hand in that regard. The various people who contacted me via this board re; working in AUH were given nothing more than the truth, and if that caused them to rethink their plans, so be it.
THAT is how this board influences the management. It creates an information flow that will empower prospective applicants to make reasoned decisions, with eyes wide open. They might have to attract people with a decent package, instead of the usual fluff and nonsense.

Guess who benefits out of that?

AirNoServicesAustralia

19th Oct 2005, 10:57

Nice photo in the paper mate. Great way to go out. Very Classy.

African Queen

19th Oct 2005, 11:02

Nice photo in the paper mate. Great way to go out. Very Classy

What day was it in. Post it, I missed it.

ferris

19th Oct 2005, 12:52

Nice photo in the paper mate. Great way to go out. Very Classy. Never claimed to be classy.
Quote from Rhiis; "I know I could never get away with the things I do in a civilised country". Speaks volumes about the man, the place, and the workplace culture. The 'managers' there, both above and below him, are complicit by their inaction. Not much class to be had anywhere. If Machiavelli rules the day, ce la vie.

As for you preaching- very funny.

Hope someone sends me a cutting. How about it Vercingetorex- I mean- cheerybum?

African Queen

19th Oct 2005, 13:43

I must be missing something....either that or your front page of the Gulf News today is diferent from the one at http://www.gulfnews.com/news/2005/1019/home2.asp
under "front page.pdf"

sandborne

19th Oct 2005, 13:51

Now back to the topic at hand.
Communique' received from Serco dated 18/10/05 from contract negotiation team to staff
Dear all
running back to Dubai tail between legs. Reducing contract price and therefore your conditions for next year due fear of reprisal on other contracts in UAE.
Some c#$p about recruiting controllers from centres that are also short staffed and have better pay and conditions.
Please lubricate and prepare for shafting
End message.

For all of those posting until now. It is not the resignations that are the problem it is the total lack of new recruits that is. Never underestimate the ability of managers to underestimate the value of their staff.

cheerylittlebottom

19th Oct 2005, 15:14

How about it Vercingetorex- I mean- cheerybum?

Am having an angina attack. Must now aquire a bald head and rotund little tummy......

Nurse! Nurse! Pass the G & T......

PPRuNe Radar

19th Oct 2005, 15:34

As things once again descend in to 'personal' namecalling, I'll get my big red editing pen ready again :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

cat man do

19th Oct 2005, 16:50

ferris

If you think that neither I, nor the dawg, had any influence over what happened to us, you are a little naive.

Hmmmmmm, and you are telling the truth? I, for one, would be very sceptical about hearing the truth from you ferris. Your postings have been nothing but one sided. What do you consider the truth, your opinion? Once again you, as always, consider your opinion to be the truth.

Never claimed to be classy.

Yes, but you did mention integrity when given a choice to stay or go. You chose to go and yet the method you chose lacked a whole lot of integrity, double standards?. Seems again you have a well balance view on things and a very high opinion of your own opinion. As you have said before, this is an open forum, allow then the fact that many others have a differing opinion.

I support ANSA and little bum about the real issue. The people that have left insist on coming on this forum and lambasting their "opinion" about what they chose to leave. Why? Do you miss the place so much? Do you really think things are changing because you left?

Staffing is an issue all over the world, Aus closing sectors, US backlog of ATC's, training issues in Canada. Why is this unit so special that it deserves your venom?

AQ, check out yesterdays classifieds, Gulf News.

Cat out

:zzz:

cheerylittlebottom

19th Oct 2005, 17:03

33,000 DHS PER MONTH DIRECT HIRE!!!!

Is no one going to comment on burj's little bombshell???

Can we move away, just for a moment, from all the little prima donna's and focus on the reason for this thread??

AirNoServicesAustralia

19th Oct 2005, 17:16

Sorry Cheery, I didn't think that was a bombshell, as I thought everyone already knew that. That's what is hanging over SERCO's head right now.

cheerylittlebottom

19th Oct 2005, 17:52

Yes, we in the loop know. I'm curious to see what those who are
outsiders think of prospects now. Is it enough to attract those with 2 or 3 kids? It's great for the singletons.
What could SERCO possilbly offer if this is what the people employing SERCO are offering us??
On that line of thought, does it not follow that SERCO will at least lose the ATC contract?

Speculation, speculation.....

3 slips and a gully

19th Oct 2005, 18:30

33k DHS/month?????

That works out to $128,000CAD taxfree(?)

Living in Alberta (lowest tax) you would have to make $190K to match that.

That is seriously good coin!!!!

sandborne

19th Oct 2005, 18:44

33k per month
not enough
check real cost of renting and schooling here

yakkity yak

19th Oct 2005, 22:42

Totally agree with you there sandborne

at 33,000 dhs less at least 10,000 for decent accommodation less about 6,000 per mth (avg) school for 2 kids that takes it the nett back to 17,000 and that doesnt include medical, lack of gratuity, etc so that doesn't really make it any better than now.

The reality is that if you are single that willl make a big difference but for families (which would be majority of applicants) there is no change.

ANSA.... you have a bloody big chip on your shoulder son, and I suggest you take a walk and lose it. Same with the "cat".
most people who are there are there for a reason just like burj said, nationality, sexual orientation, avoiding paying child maintenance and having ex wife get money, avioding taxman, and so on and so on.... so these people including yours truly dont like others highligting the shortfalls/ pitfalls of being here in UAE because you are basically stuck here like prisoners of you own fate. Luckily for me my reasons for being here dont apply now so I am happy in knowing I can depart at will.

Be men and accept others point of view because this is reality or dont reply to the thread or use the forum........a forum is a place where people gather to discuss issues:uhoh: :uhoh:

chow

ferris

19th Oct 2005, 22:43

CatHmmmmmm, and you are telling the truth? Yes, I am telling the truth. I stand by my statements. Those who know what happened are quite able to form their own opinion.Your postings have been nothing but one sided. Just because, in your opinion, my posts are 'one-sided', doesn't make them untruthful.What do you consider the truth, your opinion? You may not be smart enough to realise that all 'truth' is subjective. I realise that in the gulf, lots of people, including you, choose to ignore certain things, as it helps you sleep. So be it.You chose to go and yet the method you chose lacked a whole lot of integrity, double standards? So the people who play a dirty game cry foul to the referee? Haha, very funny. All you guys trying to take the moral high ground make me laugh. Once the die was cast, I played with what I had. If it was possible to play a 'fair' game, don't you think I would? But make no mistake, I have absolutely no remorse, given the circumstances. When in Rome....Do you really think things are changing because you left? I pose the same question to you. Do you think things will change because you stay? As mentioned, things are far more influenced by a lack of staff, than an abundance. Why is this unit so special that it deserves your venom? Venom? If facts are venom, what does that tell you? See the post above by a Canadian looking at the 33k figure and thinking it's wonderful. When he gets the facts, sorry 'venom', about the working conditions and the cost of living, he will be better informed about whether to make the move. Maybe if the Authority (and Serco) tried doing it, they wouldn't end up with so many of the problems they do?

edited after seeing Yak's post.
Here here.

cheerylittlebottom

20th Oct 2005, 05:15

ferris

Do you want some cheese with that whine??

Anyway, let's get back to the thread...

Yakkity yak is right. You'll be hard pressed to find a villa in AD for 100 000. Please don't tell me that so and so has one for cheaper because they're either ready for demolition or it was a miracle that it was aquired.

And that 's what this is mostly all about,as well - the poor accomodtion that goes with the SERCO contract. Sure, you can get a large 3 bedroom apartment in the city for about 90 000, (and the rent will proberly go up before you finish unpacking the first box) but your stuck with cronic parking, unbearable traffic and usually the neighbours from hell. Not to mention the spitting on the pavement as you go to get a loaf of bread. Not great when your walking with your kids.

Schools are cronically expensive, as YY says. When the kids are in high school, the fees and other expenses are close to 7 000 a year at the top 3 schools.

So, youre down to 17000 and you still need to pay for all the other paraphernalia and you need to save for all your air tickets for all 4/5 of you and start saving for the big summer holiday.
Its starting to get a little messy now.....

Again, I ask, what more could SERCO offer when the people paying them are offering "top dollar"?
Is this the best it's going to get because it sure is going to leave the family people sucking lemons...

AirNoServicesAustralia

20th Oct 2005, 07:14

Ok YY, lets clear this up once and for all. You are obviously alluding to something about me and I'm not sure what, so I will go through your "stuck here because...." checklist.

Nationality...no problem, sexual orientation...straight (is that a problem?), child maintenance... being paid from here big time, ex wife get money...she's already got it all, avoiding the tax man... well shoot me for not paying taxes. Saying someones stuck here because they don't want to go back to paying taxes, is like saying a Canadian or Scandinavian is stuck here cos they don't want to freeze their fanny off again in a Northern winter. So I will say again I choose to stay here because the work is great fun, and very interesting, and the lifestyle here is also great.

Jeez I love my job and I love my life, I can see why you think I have a chip on my shoulder!!

As far as needing 10,000 dh's a month for rent get real. Go through a real estate agent and pay their prices and yeh you will get ripped off. Get off your collective backsides and go looking yourself and you will find real nice places for 7,000 a month. As far as education goes, IF you send your kids to ACS and IF they are in senior school then yes the figure given is accurate. But if you go to AISA or to the other schools as a junior student, those figures are inflated. As usual you do the figures and work out if it is right for you.

Funny thing is all these moaners surely did the figures before they came and knew what they were taking, but now they are here they complain about it. Bottom line is with the figures I gave
and throwing in money for health insurance, flights home, utilities and gratuity, you still have 17,000 a month in your hand. Now I don't know where in Australia or Canada you could pay income tax, pay rent/mortgage, pay health insurance, put 2 kids in private school, pay utilities and pay for some international air tickets each year, and still have the best part of $6,000 a month (Canadian or Australian) in your hand. In Australia you would be lucky to get $6,000 a month in your hand after just paying the income tax.

But hey what would I know I have a bloody big chip on my shoulder. What kind of chip is that? I never heard of an optimistic chip before.

sandborne

20th Oct 2005, 07:17

Next issue
Single people and people without kids earning less.
This is garbage almost everywhere else in the world you get paid for the work you do not how busy you have been in the sack.
As I sit here in my 25th floor four bed apartment provided by my employer I dream of high 30s for all.:ok: :ok:

sandborne

20th Oct 2005, 07:49

Yes did figures before moving here
Cost of living in AUH rising rapidly
Exchange rate Swazi dollar to the Dirham 1 to 5 and rising
nice place for 7000 per month unlikely, especially not one you can fit both your children and your furniture in (and yes I have looked around).
My estimate of 6000AUD per month in hand at trend exchange rate 17000ishAED. Don't even get that after everything is paid for let alone before.
Flight home money from Serco complete joke. Tried a full price fair anywhere before. I live 30000 hectopascals from AUH and the amount I get for a flight leaves me about 10000 short of my destination.

AirNoServicesAustralia

20th Oct 2005, 07:50

Finally a valid point, it only took 3 pages. Yes single guys earn the same on the contract as married guys without kids, who also earn the same as married guys with kids. The package should be the same for all.

Just another quick point though. We all came here knowing the accomodation was appartment style accomodation, so why now is it a requirement when working out the cost of living to quote the cost of a villa?

Ok I don\'t know where you\'re from sandborne, but the exchange rate has been on the improve over the last 6 months, so from a bad position it is improving, and looks to continue to improve.

Can\'t find anything nice for 7,000 a month that you can fit your kids and furniture in. You\'re telling me that you can\'t find a nice big 3 bedroom apartment for 84,000 a year. PM me and I will give you a list a mile long.

The final point is valid. The flight allowance with SERCO is a joke and is seriously short of what it needs to be.

sandborne

20th Oct 2005, 08:03

One of the main gripes here is accomadation.
Someone posted earlier that they would have over 100k Canadian in the hand if they were earning this kind of money at home. Imagine what sort of accomadation that would provide. Three bed apartment, no, more like five bed house.
I think the gripe is not that it's a three bed apartment but that it is not comparable to other working professionals in UAE. We are in substandard accomadation. Think about what expats left when they moved here.
Also why do things have to stay the same? Everyone has said that there are shortages all over the world. So why shouldn't a company that is trying to fill a contract requirement do a little extra to fill the gap that they have created.

AirNoServicesAustralia

20th Oct 2005, 08:28

Saying that you need to match what guys are leaving behind is not valid. Do you think controllers leaving their 5 bedroom homes in Australia, going to Hong Kong, moved into Houses when they arrived.

For the vast majority of professionals living in Abu Dhabi, apartment living is part of the deal. For 84,000 dh's a year you can get a really nice big apartment. It will also mean we are on a par with what Dubai get accomodation wise, which would be a much fairer situation than the current inequity.

sandborne

20th Oct 2005, 08:41

I said earlier in one of my posts that Serco are unable to get people to come over here in any serious number. I believe that one of the main reasons for that is that this forum has opened peoples eyes a bit about what it is really like. Saying that Serco need to provide comparable accomadation is a perfectly valid point if they are trying to recruit from elsewhere and are having trouble doing so.
You said that we would get what the Dubai controllers get if we get 84000 a year. Sorry but that is not a valid argument for it either. No shortage in DXB huge shortage in AUH. Serco themselves will tell you that each contract is an individual deal and the details of them are made to satisfy the requirements of the contract. How long have DXB had it better than AUH?
I will say that I enjoy working here and living here, but that things should be improving not stagnating

cat man do

20th Oct 2005, 09:08

ANSA and sandborne, quite right. The real issue is the expectation. When we first decided to come here we expected an apartment and subsequently got an apartment. It is only once we got here and saw what others were getting did we start complaining. We all agree that the accomodation needs addressing and quickly. The joke is that it wont take much to improve the current lot. I did not leave my palace at home to live in a palace here but I do expect a decent place. The reason most of us came out here for was the money. the lifestyle etc was an after thought.

ferris

The truth is not something that is based on an opinion, it is based on fact. Your 'statements' and 'truths' are nothing more than your stated opinion, do we assume that YOUR opinion = truth??? No, if we are to give an outsider a perspective then we offer our opinions to which they can then base a judgement. Your facts and truths always seem to be the same rhetoric, offer an alternative opinion to his majesty ferris then you are management or blind to the 'FACTS'. Come on ferris, just cause we don't follow the union line does that mean we are fools? I do sleep well at night as I know what to expect and PLAN accordingly. Your posts lack credibility due to a lack of sincerity. If you really think that your actions, statements, truths or opinions would help the situation here then you are more than just naive.

Yak yak, huge chip on these shoulders. Just like ANSA, must be because I am enjoying the work, the life, the travel, the sun shine (ok it does get a bit much):cool:, cocktails on the beach. Phew, the list goes on, I am starting to get depressed just thinking about it. Maybe I can get a chip on the other shoulder and then I can be well balanced like you and ferris and burj (mate) and lets not forget rat. :ok:

:ok: Happy International Day of the Controller :ok: to ALL of you.

sandborne

20th Oct 2005, 09:22

The thing is before you move here you have basically got the contract manager's word that the accomadation is suitable. That living in AUH you don't need a car and therefore parking not an issue etc. You get here and then you see that some things aren't as good as they should be. Don't start me on the furniture (broken old worn out mattress that about ten other couples have coupled on ).
My point was supposed to be about the future. Serco are bidding for the contract renewal. They will be obliged to position around thirty controllers now and maybe more if we ever move to a new centre. For this they need controllers around the world to want to come here. For that they need to offer something worth coming here for. At the moment they don't.

Tall-Lion

20th Oct 2005, 10:01

Just finished reading this thread...and I'd like to thank you all for the eye-opener. I was considering moving to UAE, but this thread has made me realise that the grass only looks greener from a distance...

I think I'll stay on my side of the hill..allthough the grass is getting less green by the minute :(

PPRuNe Radar

20th Oct 2005, 18:19

I've tried to weed as much of the personal crap out of this thread as possible. For the last time then, puerile name calling, 'witty' twisting of user names and personal attacks, attempting to compromise the anonymity of users (unless they do so themselves or are in the public domain already), or other posts which try to play the player instead of the ball won't find a place here.

The alternative (an easy one for me), is just to delete the whole thread and throw a few people in the cooler. That would of course result in a lot of useful information and opinion (from both sides) being lost forever. It won't help those considering a move to this part of the world, it won't help those posters who play by the rules and put a bit of effort in to their opinions and arguments, and it won't help those who can't seem to resist going back to school playground tactics (actually .. the last group don't matter).

It is very much a case of the usual suspects. Some are in that category by posting inflammatory stuff which has no bearing on the topic at hand except to bait other users. Some are people who see red and reply in kind. And some are those who get sucked in to the maelstrom and are influenced to make similar kinds of posts.

The thread is in your hands guys, and it's hanging by a thin one at the moment. It is clearly an emotive subject to some, but that still doesn't mean you have to reply with personal attacks on anyone. Look at the other persons argument and counter with your own. For those who can't, please let me know that's your position. I can then restrict your access here to our mutual benefit. You won't be tempted to post anything which breaks the rules and I won't have to waste time editing your posts. Win-win :ok:

throw a dyce

20th Oct 2005, 18:58

I think Serco will always struggle to attract people to UAE ACC despite better pay deals,accomodation or whatever.In the past they have been lucky with a supply from the States,Scandanavia,South Africa.From a UK point of view there is almost no incentive for a UK Area Rated controller to upsticks as Nats pays Band 4 and 5 stations well in comparison with Serco.Not forgetting the pension as well.Even Band 2 airport pay is good,compared with AUH,DXB.

I met up with a friend who used to work at UAE ACC last visit to the sandpit.He had just come off doing 4 consecutive night shifts.The 2 standbys were Nights followed by his own night shifts,( maybe the other way round) but he was absolutely knackered.He was one of the guys that escaped and I don't blame him.This situation is highly illegal in the UK.No more than 2 night shifts allowed.

There just isn't the same supply of Controllers anymore.Sure there will always be a few that come across for their own reasons,but money won't be the main factor.After reading this thread there might be a few more with serious second thoughts.

sandstorm inferno

20th Oct 2005, 20:48

Tall-Lion

I was considering moving to UAE, but this thread has made me realise that the grass only looks greener from a distance...

Don't listen to all the bullsh!t from some negative UAE ACC ATCOs. Truth is, honestly, working conditions could be better whereever you work in the UAE. I believe whereever you work in the ATC world. Accommodation could be better, so could management, but overall, the lifestyle here is great, IF you can take the pros and cons. I'm sure it happens in every country. What do you have to lose? I would say try it! It can only get better anyway. Be positive, think positive and the result shall become positive....

PS. I'm NOT management if somebody is going to slaughter me ;)

ferris

20th Oct 2005, 23:23

CatThe truth is not something that is based on an opinion, it is based on fact As I said, I didn't think you would be intelligent enough to understand that 'truth' is subjective, but you only have to read some UAE "incident investigations" to see that;) I am not going to waste the time boring the readers educating you, so I'll leave it at that (for now).

Have a look at Tall-lion's post, and tell me again how what happens on this board and the information flow effected has no effect on what goes on in the UAE ACC. Tall-lion is a Eurocontroller who was seriously considering the move to the UAE. Information is power. Another lesson is being painfully learned!

If you think I am gloating, you are wrong. As others have intimated, if people go there EYES WIDE OPEN, surely that's better? And if they don't, because once armed with the FACTS, they choose not to, isn't that also good for the guys still there? It means "the management" has to improve things (whether that is the money, the roster, the accomm- whatever). Win-win.What do you have to lose? I would say try it! It can only get better anyway What sort of advice is that? It's really crap, but it can only get better.:confused: Lifestyle! Yeah, 7 days off per month affords you a fab lifestyle.What do you have to lose? Where do I start....Your relationships? Your rights? Your ability to return to home country as your pension/superannuation fades away, property prices increase etc etc? Your sanity? The list is endless..... (bear in mind, these are opinions, not facts:ok: )Don't listen to all the bullsh!t Amen to that. Read the thread. It's not hard to see where THAT comes from. ANSA is about the only poster putting forward anything other than fluffy, meaningless, 'lifestyle'-type positives.

The best advice is to read WHAT people post, not just interpretations of WHY they post it.

sandstorm inferno

21st Oct 2005, 05:50

Ferris...

Amen to that. Read the thread. It's not hard to see where THAT comes from. ANSA is about the only poster putting forward anything other than fluffy, meaningless, 'lifestyle'-type positives.

Why should an outsider listen to what aprx. 10% of the UAE ACC ATCO's are thinking/feeling? What about the rest? They might not all be totally satisfied but they're making the best of it, unlike some of the guys in the UAE who wants everyone in the bad boat...

Ferris! tell us, where do you work and why are you there (still)? Why did you join Serco UAE once? Enlighten us :\

sandborne

21st Oct 2005, 06:13

Don't agree with any of you.
I think it is perfectly legimate to complain if you don't like a situation. Yes management do read this forum. They also hear people like tall lion say that they are reconsidering the move here because of what is being said. Stick to your guns tall lion now is not the time to come here.
ANSA the only person not spouting lifestyle fluff. Huh? he is the only person on the thread that is saying Serco don't need to change things. Also lifestyle is not fluff, it is the reason we all work. It is the most important decision when choosing a career move.

cat man do

21st Oct 2005, 06:14

Ferris

Firstly, play the ball not the man. You, by association, assume you have superior intelligence. That is YOUR opinion.
You are right, truth is subjective because it relies on the interpretation of 'facts'. The facts are there and the facts tell the truth, it's how we interpret the facts where the truth starts getting distorted. You are the master at distorting the facts. Who elected you to 'Voice of the People" in the first place? Union mentality is not the solution.

Again I agree with you about this board and the information flow. What I dont understand (and neither does ANSA) is your need to get up on a soap box and dish the dirt. We have all accepted, and posted, that there are problems here but is it necessary that you parade and shout to all and sundry??? You have left, what have you to gain? The guys that remain are still enjoying it here and those that don't will probably move on when the time is right, that is the nature of the game. Market forces (not spite) will sort out the contracts. If other units are paying more with better conditions, people will move thus you have a market force pulling. We will only know as to how strong GCAA/Serco are willing to pull in order to retain or encourage new people.

Ferris, you are posting out of spite and revenge to get back at certain people, not for the due concern of your colleagues. This is what outsiders need to understand.

Sandstorm inferno. right on :ok:
You have hit the button on the head, far more people enjoy it here than ferris eludes to. The only problem is that not all participate in this forum.

CMD:cool:

Tall-Lion

21st Oct 2005, 09:42

This is exactly why I have second thoughts... I'm not in such a bad possition after all, allthough things here are spiraling downwards... The Union is fighting hard to keep stuff on an acceptable level...

I still might visit in the first half of next year, and talk to more people...hopelfully I'll get a more balanced look on things.

Greetz,
TL

throw a dyce

21st Oct 2005, 10:29

Ferris,

They used to take passports away for ''Inspection''.Do they still do that? Was it to stop people doing a runner.:confused:

cat man do

21st Oct 2005, 12:04

Burj, you can write. Yes I am a 'coal face worker' but am getting more irritated by the wanton negative moaning that continues. I tend to keep my mouth shut at work. We are so busy working but we get an endless tirade of negativity of a few. Some shifts are an absolute pleasure to work with and others a complete drag, you get home exhausted, not from the work but from our colleagues. Then again, I do agree with the sentiment that is around, accomadation and money can improve. I am of the 'opinion' that it will improve, due to market forces not soap box operas. What I fail to understand is the continual whining (as if we all want to hear it) that goes on. Its been said before, we come here out of choice and we leave here out of choice, the last thing we came here for is loyalty. Instead of bemoaning our predicament I am ensuring that I am in a position that if I make the decision to go it is on my terms. I will not have to rely on being chucked out and doing the running thing. I do not think (my opinion) that things are not as bad as you make out and instead of encouraging people to stay away I want to encourage people to come here so things can return to what it was. What people also need to keep in mind is that whenever a contract comes up for negotiation these threads pop up, 3 years ago for this contract, the last airport negotiation and now this again. All quiet inbetween, that must also say something?????????

Tall Lion

Do not change and come to the ME if it is greener grass you are looking for, rather come over for different grass. Do yourself a favour and visit the place and form your OWN opinion. We could all go on and on with our own version of events, all you will get is the PRO's - who paint a pretty picture with a few problems and the cons - who paint a dismal picture. Do yourself the favour and visit, meet ALL the guys here, meet with managment, hell, even meet the bus driver, but only you can find the TRUTH.

Cat out:zzz:

cheerylittlebottom

21st Oct 2005, 12:23

Burj

It's true that not all uae atcos participate in this forum , mostly because of fear , fear of being found out and incurring the wrath of management.

What drivel is this that you are sprouting forth?? You yourself haven't really held back on anything, especially regarding Verexigonnagoix (or what ever his name is) and what repercussions did you suffer for that?? Was there a witch hunt?Were there any memo's send out? Any threats made against Pprune users by management???

When you throw out statements like that, please clarify and back up your anecdotes. Do you know something that we don't know?? :ooh: Has something happened to someone in the past and did they disappear???

Nurse! Nurse! Pass the elephant gun, the bloody Russians are coming ...

ferris

21st Oct 2005, 12:44

Throw a dyce
They do indeed take passports away for 'inspection'. I am not sure of their motivation- can only speculate;)
Cat
You are the master at distorting the facts Really?Union mentality is not the solution. I'd be interested to find out exactly what "union mentality" is. And what is it not the solution to? Is that an admission that there are things that require solutions? That won't do your recruitment drive any good!What I dont understand (and neither does ANSA) is your need to get up on a soap box and dish the dirt. I didn't start the thread. In fact, I don't think I've ever started a thread in relation to this topic. I merely respond when I see the blatant "advertising" that goes on here, and attempt to add some balance.
It saddens me when you get ideas that I am motivated out of spite. Ask Tall-lion; at the very start of our correspondence I informed him of my position, and offered to put him in touch with people who might have more positive things to say. Believe me, if you want spiteful posts, I'll provide them. In fact, thanks for the idea. I'll start a separate thread, just so you will get the idea about spite.but is it necessary that you parade and shout to all and sundry Now, this sort of comment troubles me. What motivation can anyone have to stifle the airing of the "dirt"? If you want to be a 'positive little worker', don't read it!! Things will only get better for you if prospectives turn tail. If you have other motivations- a manager, or a serco drone, or a self-delusional type, then that would explain it. I'll leave it to readers to decide "what motivation could there be for wanting to stifle negative info about AUH ACC?" hmmmmm....I am ensuring that I am in a position that if I make the decision to go it is on my terms. I will not have to rely on being chucked out Now THAT is a distortion of facts. Who "relies" on being chucked out? Or doing a runner? Believe what you want.;)
Gotta go formulate some spite!:p

edit after seeing cheery's post.
You do realise you keep giving yourself away, don't you cherrybum/verci? :ok:
Was there a witch hunt? Readers should be made aware that the CATCO at the UAE ACC frequently quizzed staff about who was who on pprune, whilst pretending not to care about what is written here. He would go to lengths such as; checking personnel files to find work histories (to cross-check against info in posts), check work sign-on times against post times, send PMs posing as an outsider looking for info etc. He was kept at bay using a stream of disinformation, and as he isn't as bright as he likes to think he is, this worked for a long time. As this campaign was successful, one can only speculate what would've happened had it not been. Certainly, he 'marked cards' over it.

ATCO1962

21st Oct 2005, 13:00

Here's a little advice for all of you who have read this thread and are considering coming to the Gulf from a long-timer.

Consider well that you'll be walking into almost exactly the same kind of centre you are working at right now, albeit with different overlays of culture, language, expectations, etc. Once you get your head around those differences, it's not too hard to live, work and enjoy life here.

The factor I'd most like to imprint on your minds is the need to be in a position to walk whenever things aren't going your way. You must be able to "go home' or have a second, or third option before coming here. Psychologically, it makes a huge difference and much of the hard-time moaning comes from those who've burnt their bridges long ago and have nowhere else to go.

Having said that, the kernel of truth about life here lies in almost all the postings you'll read here, regardless of the side you choose to join.

Don't just follow the money trail; there are other good reasons why you may want to come here. Whatever happens, enjoy the process and walk if and when you have to without rancour.

Good luck to you.

cheerylittlebottom

21st Oct 2005, 13:24

ferris
he isn't as bright as he likes to think he is

Alas, I am undone......:{

Hurrah for ATCO1962, He has just condensed about 4 pages of endless harping on....:ok:

bathurstmews

21st Oct 2005, 13:38

Ferris

Me little okker, the UAE authorities would welcome you back in a heartbeat. They will have a permanent position waiting for you at their Al Wathba facility. Don't think that the salary is great.

As ANSA said "classy way to go Mate". What you going to tell your kids when they ask "what did you do in the Gulf war Daddy?"

ferris

21st Oct 2005, 14:00

Hey cheery, why don't you create a few more identities and keep agreeing with yourself over and over?:ok: What you going to tell your kids when they ask "what did you in the Gulf war Daddy?" I'll put on a welsh accent and tell them some lies. I learned at the foot of a master;)
ATCO 1962
A couple of thingsimprint on your minds is the need to be in a position to walk whenever things aren't going your way Serco bond you for 2 years, so it might be a long wait to get yourself out (although it is not unknown for poeple to be so disenchanted that they buy their way out of the bond). Also, ATC is not, generally, easy to switch jobs at the drop of a hat. Nor is it easy to change countries with a family.much of the hard-time moaning comes from those who've burnt their bridges long ago and have nowhere else to go. I beg to differ. I found those that had nowhere else to go never moaned, and almost existed in a state of self-delusion about how good everything was, precisely because they had nowhere else to go (or are trapped by the money). The "moaners" are inevitably people who have left, because they have the freedom to speak. Don't just follow the money trail; there are other good reasons why you may want to come here. Whatever happens, enjoy the process and walk if and when you have to without rancour. Top advice. You'll also be a lot happier if you go in with eyes wide open.

yakkity yak

21st Oct 2005, 14:21

Tall lion and others considering coming to AUH Acc these are the bare facts (which is really what this thread is about)

* As far as coming here for lifestyle goes, that may have been the case to some extent when they used to have a full compliment of 32 controllers, but not any more, they have a shortage and it will get worse, and those here are working more hours to make up the gap-----bottom line there is not enough time to have a lifestyle because you are either working or sleeping oh yes or working :mad: :mad:

* For some of the single (or otherwise inclined) staff this may not be too big an issue, but for those with families/kids the lifestyle thing is a myth and as the cost of living rises rapidly its eating into what little is really left, which the way things are going is not going to be a lot

* Accommodation....well I for one HATE apartments and did not envisage leaving a 4 bed home on acreage and moving into a dung heap apartment, we should be on a similiar parity to other expats so should be a villa, Serco made it out like it was the Ritz, NOT!! :{ :{ Again if you are single maybe not such a big deal.

* Schooling here is expensive and if you want to send your kids to a second rate school fine, if you come here you want and should expect your kids to get the best education available and not have to pay for it.

* workwise the rosters here suck big time and in the REAL world would be considered UNSAFE and I am sure ICAO would agree. A lot of the staff in the UAE ACC are fatigued, and it is only a matter of time until a major occurence happens.

the risk management here is nil and the MIS management ot the ACC is rife. Because of the roster which infringes on ones free time frequently and the ever reducing conditions of employment. The one thing we dont want CAT is more people coming there as will not help with getting the pay and conditions improved. Remember we are not talking about 1st world country here it is still classed as somewhere between 3rd and 1st world and the pay and conditions should reflect this and they dont. I also believe that they never will.

I agree with those who have said come here and have a look, but make sure you come during Ramadan and during mid summer so you can really get a feel for reality, but dont bother speaking to any of the supervisors or Serco managers or GCAA as they will just piss in your pocket.

Chow

bathurstmews

21st Oct 2005, 14:31

Ferris
it is often said that a Welshman's truth follows a curve.

Haws twyllo mahban na gwrachan.

Yakkity

if the roster is like as it was before we then worked/attended about 33 hrs total a week averaged over a calender month.

Not a lot compared to what other highly qualified, i.e MBAs etc, expats do for comparable salaries.

I think that if you took this to the media and they published your salaries in comparison to the general public they would nail you as whinging and not working hard enough.

HAY MSL management consultants have done numerous controller studies in many countries on this. Check them out.

However, your choice. Go for it

sandstorm inferno

21st Oct 2005, 15:32

Remember we are not talking about 1st world country here it is still classed as somewhere between 3rd and 1st world and the pay and conditions should reflect this and they dont. I also believe that they never will.

just like this thread then :confused: :E

cat man do

21st Oct 2005, 15:42

ATCO1962

Thank you for your posting, well balanced, sensible and (dare I say) truthful.

ferris

I found those that had nowhere else to go never moaned, and almost existed in a state of self-delusion about how good everything was, precisely because they had nowhere else to go (or are trapped by the money). The "moaners" are inevitably people who have left, because they have the freedom to speak.

Oh please, who is delusioned now? People who have the freedom of movement are the moaners? Come on now, you are really scraping the barrel on this one. Those with freedom of movement and choice tend to be the ones who get on with there lives, why even bother 'moaning about something that you have left behind?

And what is it not the solution to? Is that an admission that there are things that require solutions? That won't do your recruitment drive any good!

So what you are saying is that a company like Virgin does not continue to look for solutions? Is it only companies that have problems that look for solutions? Once again , ferris, you are showing your lack in knowledge on issues.

Who "relies" on being chucked out? Or doing a runner?

I don't know, maybe you should answer this one? Maybe you were the only one who wanted to leave but had internal pressure to stay, so you get an opportunity and 'voila' you have to leave. That, however, is MY OPINION and should not be construed as the TRUTH.

Yak yak

You are obviosly not at the centre. Full compliment of 32? Just looked at the latest roster, 32 listed there. November oops 34 listed there (2 newies arriving yippee).

I certainly was not made any promises of what Serco offered me when I came out, contract was pretty clear (including the bond). My contract also included the fact that singlies may even share accomodation, so I guess on that little point things have improved :eek: . No, don't get me wrong, I agree that the accomodation could be better but I would rather have the cash than a better apartment (came here for the money remember). My palace is at home, not here. The money also needs improving, but hey, if it doesn't then off I toodle to my real home in my real country and know that my time here was an experience. I will also be able to get my old job back at the same level of my peers. I will have no regrets about leaving here as it is still (barely) on my terms.

Hey bathie, just checked out your post, have no clue what the welshie thing is though. You make a valid point on the hours. Just did a quickie of my hours, I'm complaining as I worked 1 hour per week more than you :{ . I suppose this is a FACT and can be construed as the TRUTH.

cat out :zzz: :zzz:

Fox3snapshot

21st Oct 2005, 15:56

Howdy sports fans, just stepped off the party boat in the Caribbean and more than impressed by the banter that I have missed whilst sipping rum punches on the deck of our gin palace! :cool:

At 80 US cents a minute though I am not going to get a chance to read through all the quality input from all concerned so I will save that until I get back to work :E

Can I put my Bateen Canteen order in with someone as the Lobster here sux! :p

ATCO1962

21st Oct 2005, 16:04

Foxy, you sure get around! Where do you get your money from and when are you coming home to Muscat???;)

sandborne

21st Oct 2005, 19:06

32 on the roster, what a coincidence, also the number of overtime shifts required for November. See your email if you don't believe me. 2 newees in November wow in three months time we won't be asked to work the 32 overtimes.
Why are people who are just trying to improve their lot being called whiners? UAE ACC controllers work hard and deserve a better deal because of it.
Yes I was told what number of rooms my apartment would have but here is a few new sentences for the contract manager to learn
"Your apartment is so small that there isn't enough room to swing a cat"
"Your apartment has no laundry would you mind doing your washing in the kitchen?"
"Your apartment is so old and crappy that all those who live their threatened to leave Serco if they did not do something about the condition of it ASAP"
"You will not be able to go in to your elevator at night because there will be vomit or urine in it and it will make you sick if you do"
"The furniture in your apartment looks like I stole it from a garage sale and you will not get any help if you try to improve on it yourself"
Sorry just don't buy this things are great and don't need to change around here thing.
Edited after steam cleared from my glasses

ferris

22nd Oct 2005, 00:16

Cat
If you want to keep opening your mouth and removing any doubt about your lack of brains, go right ahead. You finally got the message about the subjectiveness of truth (and obviously it stung, didn't it!), but now you're at it again!you are showing your lack in knowledge on issues I think you are confusing "pursuit of excellence" with "solving problems" in regard to Virgin.
One of the biggest problems at the ACC is the lack of talent in the managers. Witness it on display here in this thread!

Those like Cat are loath to admit there are any problems. The "who is doing the moaning thing" has been done to death; readers can make up their own minds (ps Cat- notice the difference between "there" and "their" - petty, I know, but I think it goes to the core of the 'intellectual rigour' you keep alluding to). But you have to ask questions when things like this are raisedif the roster is like as it was before we then worked/attended about 33 hrs total a week averaged over a calender month Carefully crafted to mislead. Firstly, why would prospectives care about some roster that USED TO BE WORKED? Neglecting to mention that that roster contained a period of 48 hours continuous standby- YES, you read that correctly- 48 HOURS CONTINUOUS STANDBY, during which you could be asked to work ANY shift! Try doing a nightshift of 9 hours after 10 minutes sleep! Illegal under the CARs, but that didn't stop them. When it was pointed out that the roster was illegal, guess what happened? The person who pointed it out was told to apologise for raising the matter, or he would be immediately dismissed! Note how this standby time is not counted as "attending work" by the truth twisters! So 48 hour standby's continued until the staffing got so bad they just rostered you shifts instead of standby's, and asked you to work overtime as well. Here is what a controller working at the ACC IS CURRENTLY ROSTERED
MMAANNSOOOMMAANNSOMMAANNSOOO every 28 days. Do the maths yourself about how many days off, hours per week etc that is (M 7hrs - because that's what the office staff/managers work- A 8hrs, N 9hrs). Then don't forget about the overtimes you are expected to work in those few days off. Now, Cat, how do these FACTS stack up against your 33/34 hr dribble? Wasn't hard to post a roster, was it?

sandborne

22nd Oct 2005, 04:59

Mr Mews, CMD etc
Just checked my own roster. Averages out 41 hours this week, 41 hours next week, 41 hours week after that and so on and so on. Hey look there is a three day break, mark that down for celebration, may even be able to recover from the two night shifts in that time.
I am unable to stop thinking of new sentences for the contract manager to learn so here are two more
"Your roster will, in no way, reflect what your contract with us says that you will do"
"You can get your own apartment if you chose but the 45/65k per year will only allow you to rent a share apartment with three other taxi drivers and their families"

Whinging, not working hard enough? Garbage and said with some spite in my opinion. We work plenty hard thanks and what do you call the general public. It has been proven time and time again that not every one can do ATC. What about safety? Should we work as long as an AUH taxi driver? What is your cut off for safety versus fatigue? If we fill the Nov ot's, for many it will mean seven days on two off.
Tall Lion, I will be posting until the pay and conditions of next year are known to all. At that time I will be putting them up here for review and signing off. Don't make a move until then.

ATCO1962

22nd Oct 2005, 05:17

I must say, days off are what I live for, so I sympathise utterly with the comments about time spent at the face.

How much sick leave are you guys entitled to and when are you "allowed" to take it off? It would seem that there's a valid fatigue problem that any doctor would be happy to sign off on if the standbys are worked as indicated.

What does management think about calling in sick for a standby after a 10 minute pause between shifts?:uhoh: :sad: :ooh:

sandborne

22nd Oct 2005, 05:18

What stand by they are rostered shifts and the number of sick days we are entitled to is irrelevant.
Sorry I will explain what I mean about the sick days.
Overtime equals fatigue
Fatigue equals sick days
Sick days equal overtimes
Axiomatic I would have thought.

ATCO1962

22nd Oct 2005, 05:32

Yep, that's understood; a world-wide problem. What happens, though, if every standby didn't show for fatigue reasons?

sandborne

22nd Oct 2005, 06:11

Again with the stand by. What stand by?

ferris

22nd Oct 2005, 06:21

ATCO 1962
I think you misinterpreted what was written. Never 10 minutes between shifts, but you used to be eligible to be called in on 1 hr notice, even if that occurred 10 mins after you had gone to sleep (ie. you can never be prepared to work because you don't know what time of day or night you could work).
The standby system is no more. Out of the concern for the staff, you ask? No, not enough staff to run it. Simple as that.

cheerylittlebottom

22nd Oct 2005, 14:26

Ferret

All right you . I’m taking off the calf-skinned gloves for a while so that I can focus some of my precious time on you
.
.The person who pointed it out was told to apologise for raising the matter, or he would be immediately dismissed!

Your misinterpretation/version of the events is now being put out as “the truth” . What actually happened was you balls’ed up on the CARS. You were told to retract your complaint because you actually messed up on the interpretation of the rules and regulations, went in with guns a blazing and made an arse of yourself. I’m surprised you brought your embarrassing incident up.

MMAANNSOOOMMAANNSOMMAANNSOOO every 28 days. Did the math and this works out to 36hs per week. Your point??? The overtime is voluntary and there has been no lack of takers so far because the money is great. If people don’t want to work, they don’t. Its that simple.
Another thing, check your own spelling before you lash out at others. How sad are you that you pick up on such a trivial little detail. Still no job??? Lots of time on your hands??

Let me say this loud and clear so that we don't have to go through it again.

1)We are short staffed
2)Some of the accomadtion is unacceptable
3)Salaries need to improve

Phew! Got that off my little chest..... Mr. Hyde will now take his medication for the night and all will be well in La La Land tomorrow..

Nurse! Nurse! Pass the Valium....

Tall-Lion

22nd Oct 2005, 15:44

I must give you guys one thing : no shortage of humour over there :E

I will visit next year...allthough it might not be during ramadan, but more in the first half of the year ( no exact dates set ).

I will -of course- make sure I 've got a bridge to cross back, should it be needed. Luckely, I can take unpayed leave for 3 or 5 years ( not sure on the numbers though )... I would have to re-validate, but that comes with the deal.

One thing I've learned reading this -and other threads : wherever I might be going, everywhere there's something to complain about... won't keep me form looking though :p

yakkity yak

22nd Oct 2005, 23:15

Tall lion

Thats the spirit. As long as you go in with your eyes as wide open as possible, and utilising this type of forum can help, but despite some of the drivel there is some great information as well.

Burj is quite right, most if not all of the accommodation is unacceptable and the cost of living here is and has been rising rapidly for a long time. This is NOT the place to come and make good money and have the lifesyle as well.

We have anal managers here (in fact on most Serco contracts and in most facilities around the world) and I would go far as to say the supervisors as well..(they are not to be trusted and will run to the manager/CATCO and spill their guts, because this is what they are told to do). The ACC contract manager is basically mercenary and only looking after his own skin....to some extent you cant blame him but shafting and intimidating your fellow workers well that is anther story and is unacceptable behaviour. The same for the has-been CATCO, who I dare say has reached his level of incompetence.

The sad truth is that with the locals attemtping to go direct may seem to offer more but in reality once the other "costs" are factored in there is not much difference to the what is reality now, unless you are single

I reiterate that to really attract the best of the bunch they will need to be paying 35,000dhs/ mth + villa accommodation + medical + schooling for kids @ AKS, plus a decent gratuity + 56 days leave and airfares + hire sufficient staff (especially with the new sectors), I figure that around min 36 - 40 would do the job. I can tell you one thing Serco does not want to see a massive increase in UAE ACC salaries as this will really put them under pressure on the other contracts and their staff (incl Bahrain) will most likely riot. The Omanis have reiterated to me that they will only pay the going rate the other gulf states are paying, so once they see this going up this will put pressure on them to put their hand in their pockets. The same will go for Dohar and the poor mans contract on the east coast.

Devise a new roster (this is most important for Safety/risk management - oops forgot Serco and GCAA dont know what safety & risk management is....well gents you better learn quick smart) so that the midnight shifts are the shortest (maybe 6 hrs) as this is also the busiest of the shifts while we are at our lowest ebb (tired).

This will ensure that the crews are relatively refreshed and can enjoy at least 9 days off per mth and the lifestyle that CAN be had here if given the opportunity.

Good luck in your search.

Cat, happy to see you are happy to live in a slum. I for one and I suspect most of the others (except for Seffricans maybe) are not as that is not part of the lifestyle equation - not being forced to live in rubbish accommodation with 3rd hand furniture and beds that have already gone 1,000 miles (with the stains to prove it) from previous couples (both straight and bent) coupling. I guess when you have crossed the sanity line (as said earlier) you cant really complain now can you!:( :( Plus bucko you would have bucklies of getting your old job back at home and on comparable salary to your peers, please ... next joke

Cheeryarse.... what ferris brought up with you was a valid issue irrespective of you slanted view. What you are doing there is illegal by the CARs and downright dangerous and would not be tolerated or allowed in the western world and you know it, so dont try to twist the truth to back up your claim. Like I said you have reached your level of incompetence.

:ok: :ok:

ferris

23rd Oct 2005, 00:28

Cheery/Verci
What actually happened was you balls’ed up on the CARS Thanks for affording me the opportunity to give the readers a first hand look at how things work at the UAE ACC.
Here is the text of the letter that was submitted:

And I quote:

"Dear xxxxx (SATCO)
RE; ROSTERED 48-HOUR STAND-BY DUTY
I am writing to request the stand-by duty system be changed. I believe that the current roster is in breach of the CARs, specifically as follows:

The CARs define a Period of Duty
15.10.1.2.1 Period of Duty: The period between the actual commencement of and the actual end of a shift during which an air traffic controller whose licence contains a rating valid at the unit exercises, or could be called upon to exercise, the privileges of the licence at that unit, and includes prescribed breaks, time spent on other duties such as training, airfield inspection, meteorological observations, administrative tasks and any extension of duty. (my bolding)

The definitions go on to define the different types of Duty, of which Stand-by Duty is one, the others being Operational Duty, Night Duty and Break. Then

15.10.1.2.2 No Period of Duty shall exceed ten hours.

So, by definition, a Standby Duty, being one of four types of Duty, cannot exceed 10 hours.

The stand-by system is in further breach at

15.10.1.2.3 There shall be an interval of not less than ten hours between the conclusion of one Period of Duty and the commencement of the next Period of Duty. This interval may be reduced by up to 20 minutes solely for the purpose of orderly shift handover.
The LATSI also defines standby shifts as duty. Furter, I believe the current standby system allows for breaches of my (and others) employment contract. However, that matter will be raised via the contract manager.

I am making this request purely in the interest of safety. I find it impossible to prepare to work for a particular shift or time of day, when that time could be anywhere within a 24-hour period. If I carry out a normal daily routine, I cannot be well rested for a night duty. If I prepare for a night duty, I will inevitably be tired for a day duty, should one occur the following day. Therefor, I cannot be well rested for any particular duty requirement. Surely the CAR duty limitations are meant to prevent this. It is their reason for existence, both in intent and execution. I am sure other ATCOs the same way about fatigue, and may even have presented for work in an unfit state, too afraid of the consequences to declare themselves unfit. This is an invidious position to be placing staff."
The letter goes on to suggest possible solutions.

Now, Cherry, if the case was that I had somehow "ballsed up", how do you think the response would look? Would it have looked like this

And I quote:

"(memo letter head from contract manager)

Thank you for your letter dated 13 April.
With reference to your letter to xxxx xxxxx (SATCO), I was summoned to the DANS office for discussion.
The CARs were discussed, as were the terms of the Serco-IAL contract.
The CARs will be effected as promulgated. The GCAA has stated that the existing roster clearly meets all the requirements as laid down.
Your letter to the SATCO stating you cannot be well rested for any particular duty requirement, has drawn attention to a clause in the Serco-IAL Contract which states that personnel should be duly qualified, experienced and suited for the conditions in which you they (sic) respectively employed.
The GCAA interprets that your letter as submitted concerning that you cannot be well rested, contradicts the terms of the contract and considers you are undesirable for service. Serco have been informed by GCAA that should you choose not to withdraw your letter of the 13th in writing, they will insist on your immediate removal from the contract.
Employment as an ATC elsewhere in the UAE will not be approved by the GCAA.
Should you wish to retract your letter, this must be duly completed and forwarded to the SATCO no later than 1430 local time on Wednesday 16th April.
Yours Sincerely,
xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx
Contract Manager."

So, it's quite clear. The SATCO at the time, the now CATCO, couldn't even formulate a response. If, as you say, there was some sort of misinterpretation (of what is quite clearly a breach of the law), would you write back pointing out how the writer was wrong, or would you run to the DANS and then issue a dismissal threat? I wonder if ICAO are interested in how things work in the UAE? I wonder if other countries who use Serco are aware of how complicit they are in such things?went in with guns a blazing and made an arse of yourself So if that's guns blazing, I'll go he. Now who has made an arse of themselves? Nothing like a few facts to clear things up. Will your boss be pleased you are causing his dirty laundry to be aired? Does he ever wonder why he keeps getting knocked back by ICAO for a job?

BTW; I have a job, thanks. A very good job in a fantastic part of the world. How about you? Are you just cranky because bog-rat controllers get paid more than you ? (onya Stew):ok:

RustyNail

23rd Oct 2005, 07:36

Tall Lion,

I agree with all of the other comments, it is worth it to come and have a look, and talk to the expat controllers more than management, you will get a more realistic picture of work here.

The bond is also an issue, it can be expensive to get out of if you decide to leave inside 2 years.

Safety in the ME is a low priority, fatigue and over-work is a reality. Procedures are poorly written and heaven forbid if an incident occurs, incident investigation is 20 years behind the rest of the world, the controller will ALWAYS be to blame, not the procedures or the people who wrote them!:(

Make no mistake, this is a third world country. The ATC is run by irresponsible management with no accountability at all.

Coming from Europe you will need to be prepared to seriously lower your standards. ICAO desperately needs to do a safety audit of the ME right now :uhoh:

cat man do

23rd Oct 2005, 12:03

Seatstrap, or is that "master of deception"

I read through cheerybottoms retort, as far as I can read and interpret, what was said was that overtime is voluntary, if no one wants to work it then no problem. The chaps are not FORCED to work the overtime.

As for closing sectors, what do you propose (in the current climate)? Keep the sectors open and overload the guys? Come on ss, thought you had a bit more in you than that. Obviously you need to close a sector and slow the traffic rate down, even Aus do it.

This is what burns me bottom. When fellows like seatstrap distort what is written and then distort it some more. Your threads are an absolute joke, grow up.

ferris

Well written and you are complimented (not sarci) on your efforts. My only comment there (hope it's right) is that you have certainly put your point across and layed down your version of events. I would love to know what the truth is (beginning, middle and end). The reason I say this is that you are well known for your aggresive :} and blunt manner in tackling issues (regardless if the issue is correct or not). To take the point even further, surely you would have not landed in the position (more than once) that you find yourself in today? No need to reply to that statement, as that is an answer for self reflection.

toodles, cat out :zzz:

sandborne

23rd Oct 2005, 14:02

CMD
Irrelevant whether Ferris presented his letter nicely or not. Safety and manners are not coincident. If there is a safety issue you should not have to ask nicely to bring it up. The facts are the two letters and that is all.
As for the optional overtime and closing sectors, well it's going to come to that soon. Not because ATCOs don't want the money but because no one is going to be available to man them according to the seemingly flexible CARs.
How long do you think a certain Sheikh in DXB is going to put up with his planes stuck on the ground in DXB because they have to depart five minutes apart.
We need staff and Serco/GCAA need to make changes to get them, simple as that.

sandstorm inferno

23rd Oct 2005, 14:28

Since most of you complain about the poor lifestyle in the UAE why don't you leave the internet alone and this forum and get something out of the 7-9 days off :}

bathurstmews

23rd Oct 2005, 15:36

Geez Ferris, me ole mate, with an ability like yours you should have been senior management by now. I can just see you in the line up with other illustrious leaders like: Jo Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler, Papa Doc Duvalier, Robert Mugabe , etc.

You have a way of inspiring people to go onward an upward. Per ardua ad astra

Cheers me ole mate.

cat man do

23rd Oct 2005, 16:13

seatstrap

With english composition like yours it is very easy to misinterpret, for that I apologise.

Now that we are in agreement may the games continue.....

Sandborne

Point taken but I am not convinced we are getting the full story. We have heard ferris' version of events and based on recent events how are we to believe that his version is correct. I am not sure that verci... (oops..:mad: ) would hop on line and give his version. Ferris is well aware of this and can thus spread his story to whom ever he wishes. He has even gone as far as quoting excerpts from letters, are we getting the full version? Even if ferris says we are, are we believing him without allowing the others to state their (hope that's right) case? This is a blatant case of believing what you read in the papers (except for absconding notices). Ferris would make a great reporter and would, no doubt, be an asset to any tabloid.

I do not think that you should be naive enough to listen to one sided stories.

sandstorm inferno

nuff said, I'm off.

cat out :zzz:

sandborne

23rd Oct 2005, 16:29

CMD
You say that ferris is not giving the whole story and we shouldn't believe him because of that fact. Yet you and your buddies ANSA Mews etc keep bringing up his departure from here as being inglorious without providing the facts behind it. Yes there was a notice in the paper but what were the circumstances behind that occuring. Whose word do we go on there. Yours? You say that just because something is written doesn't make it fact yet you provide no reason to believe that ferris' departure was nothing but (opinion here only mind and I don't have all the facts) poor planning on his behalf and spite on behalf of his ex employer. If you are a Serco controller let's hope that they don't treat you the same way they (alledgedly) treated ferris.
Mr Mews
Way to attack the man again. Plenty written, nothing said

cat man do

23rd Oct 2005, 17:33

Sandborne

A man of few words.

ferris' departure (absconding) is fact. We don't have to mince words on that. At the conclusion of the affair, management appraised us of the events in a fair manner, no malice, only the bare facts were presented that lent ferris a bit of respect. I was somewhat surprised the manager did not put a spin on the affair. I suppose you were on leave when this happened. ferris on the other hand had nothing good to say, so what I will say is that on this issue managment maintained intergrity whilst ferris shot his mouth off, who would you believe?

Now before you get hot under the collar, I am merely stating the facts that were presented to all during that time (no reference to previos or present affairs). The manager involved was non-judgemental whereas the other party was. I draw my own conclusion from the behavior of said parties.

cat out :zzz:

sandstorm inferno

23rd Oct 2005, 17:51

Anyone got the Gulf News link with his picture?
:suspect:

sandborne

23rd Oct 2005, 18:43

Firstly "I suppose you wre on leave when this happened: you agree to the anonymity of others when registering on this site. No attempts to guess who I am please.
Secondly you use your own arguement against yourself "Management maintained their integrity". Why should I believe that? Because it is your opinion? No one I know, knows the whole facts.
"Ferris shot his mouth off" He has been given every opportunity to do so about this topic on this forum and hasn't. I spoke to him after the fact and he didn't even mention it. Not a ferris fan but as you say there are two sides to every story.

S.I.
Get over it
Goodnight for now

yakkity yak

23rd Oct 2005, 23:47

I totally agree with sandborne's comments re how long a certain Sheikh in Dubai will allow these delays to continue. I think not for long.

This also extends to the dubai unit as well because most of them claiim they are such professional and expert app controllers (read "girls blouses") they will only take so many on freqency at one time, hmmm very professional........:mad: :mad:

So the UAE sectors have to take up the slack of the Dubai prima donnas and this makes them busier. It would be obvious then that Dubai does not have the staff numbers or quality either to cope with major airport congestion.

The same for the outbounds delay heading west. More stupid rules by the prima Donna Bahrainis and Saudi..... all in all this middle eastern mess must be costing the airlines squillions of dollars.

The best you guys can hope for is that the said Sheikh, gets off his bum and takes this hands on and pushes Serco off that contract as well going direct hire either through the Dubai DCA or through DNATA and offer the appropriate rate of pay for controllers (who can really move bulk traffic and to help instigate procedures for this as well) for what is now a major international facility/airport.

The UAE/AUH and Dubai airports and airspace are no longer minnows. These are well out of the Serco management capabilities and this is becoming more evident every day, the sooner they remove the last vestages of British colonialism and RJ from these 2 major contracts and Bahrain for that matter the better off the local will be. The vast majority Serco management have never really operated at extremely busy international facilities for some time if not a long time, the MATO and manager are a classic example, no f?????g idea.

Dont worry for you Serco lover there will still be the little tinpot contracts at RAK, SHJ and Al Ain which Serco are probably capable of running andnot falling into the crap again

HOpe the powers to be are reading this thread and maybe they will realise the incompetence theyare dealing with and have to do something now.

Chow

AirNoServicesAustralia

24th Oct 2005, 02:36

Sandborne, how can you say you work here and not know the facts of Ferris's departure, without us posting them on PPRUNE. As angry as I was about the nature of his departure and the poor light it has put all of us left here in, I'm not going to go into depth about the nitty gritty of his actions. If you do actually work here, then ask around, as pretty much everyone here knows. Either that or pop down to a couple of the banking institutions around town, and you may see the WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE posters on the walls. Cheers.

Mongrel Dog

24th Oct 2005, 05:35

AirNoServicesAustralia please check your PMs :ok:

sandborne

24th Oct 2005, 06:57

ANSA
firstly I don't see how ferris' departure left us in a poor light. Maybe it left him in one, but not me. As for his actions and my comments, I was merely pointing out the fact the other than ferris himself nobody knows the whole story. Do you have his (what must be illegally obtained) financial statements? I was asked that I couldn't be so naive as to believe only one side of the story. I am not so naive to believe that Serco are completely blameless in the runner you so willingly allude to. Any story from anyone here, including you, about the events is merely their side of the story. And yes I do have a version of his leaving here and it isn't half as sinister as some would allude to. In fact the story I have is that matters are in no way settled and that ferris is in fact trying to take care of his affairs here.
If you are that willing to believe what you are told by the people that have an express (read financial) interest in their side of the story being the truth then I have a bridge to sell you.
To me it just seems that you have become the anti ferris and anything said about him that might shed some doubt as to his infamy must be refuted even if there is no real content in your retort.

Ferris
Not fighting your fight for you just trying to expose what can only be Serco or GCAA issued statements posted here to distract from the real issue of the things that need fixing here re contract, staff etc.

YY
Don't go down the DXB vs AUH road. It is non sequitur and can only ruin this discussion about the centre. I personally don't agree with you. We all have to work with each other and with the cards we are dealt. ie procedures equipment etc. I think given the traffic volumes, lack of flow control, loss of one runway etc the DXB people do as good as they can and we are trying to do the same.

sandstorm inferno

24th Oct 2005, 11:52

I think I found him :8 Sandborne IS God :8

burjalrumaithy

I\'m not a manager by the way. But you can believe whatever you want :8

bathurstmews

24th Oct 2005, 13:50

Sandborne
Ferris' asked his company that they delay his work visa cancellation as long as possible as this would enable him to retain his passport until the last minute.
His wish was granted.

In his words he requested the delay in order that "he could clear up his banking & assorted matters prior to leaving".
Info: (Immigration require the passport for approx one week for the work visa cancellation process. The down side is that in this week while the visa cancellation process is happening your banking facilities are frozen and all outstanding balances have to be cleared before your exit is authorised).
Check ANSA's posting on that .

Ferris then departed (absconded) during his requested visa delay period without picking up his gratuity. (That's a first).

All this is common knowledge in the UAE and points east & west.

His actions are less than useful in that his company will now have all sorts of hassle with the immigration dept which will delay bringing in a replacement.

That screws up the roster
His ex colleagues will have scrutiny & limitations imposed on their banking facilities. etc. purely because they work for the same company.

If he was musical he would play the one note samba: Me Me me me.

Nuff said.

sandborne

24th Oct 2005, 14:50

Mr Mews
wow some facts from you
Welcome back
Why up until now has the implication been that ferris went around the banks borrowing money with the intention of stealing it. See ANSA's posting for that information not the information you allude to as being in it. Just checked my banking facilities all working fine thanks. Pay day yesterday now wallet is too heavy to carry around.
Why does someone abscond without their gratuity?
You queried this yourself, isn't it probable there are two sides to this story? Or do you only know one of them? My naivete still not letting me down there.
I also stand by what I said about him trying to clear up his affairs here still. This is information gleaned by someone who is dealing with him financially here.
So ferris' reputation as it were is sullied. So what, does that make things just peachy here in AUH? No. Do you dispute that we are short staffed? Do you dispute that a majority, yes majority of Serco ATCO's are unhappy with their accommodation. For that also read furniture etc. They may not say it to you but they do say it when I am around at work.
Apart from your last post all you have presented so far in my opinion is attacks on ferris and not argument presenting why I for example am wrong about the need to improve on the current contract conditions to fill the staff numbers that are required and retain the staff that are here. Not all of us burned our bridges or are trouble makers at work.

bathurstmews

24th Oct 2005, 17:20

Hi Sandy

unable to comment as to whether Ferris did it intentionally, that would be "sub Judice" and up for further due legal process but it certainly did not do his ex colleagues any favours.

He was in a position where he could have helped many but instead he chose to ride his own high horse. His actions negated many efforts by his co workers (swei Swei).

I'm sure that his ex employers will do a follow up action all the way to his domicile. In these intranet days not too difficult.

Basically very sad really 'cos he could have helped the overall situation a lot.

Messy business, 'cos there's a lot of good guys there.

G'night.

yakkity yak

24th Oct 2005, 21:52

Gents

Get real for a minute please. You make this situation out to be the first time this has happened. Certainly not.:confused:

This has happened numerous times over the years and not just in Abu Dhabi, its happened in all stations including Bahrain, we have had engineers, met men etc at one point or another. It also happens in other industries here as well.

What you need to understand here is that obviously ferris has reached a level of dissatisfaction where he felt he needed to make a point and if this was his way of making then he is the one who has to live with it, not you moaners.

Seems to me like a case of sour grapes from your end that he didnt think of you first. I feel you may be a little envious because he actually got away with it, but you are all holding the baby now. Hey, when one works in this part of the world, at the end of the day it is look after number one and bugger the rest.

Dont think the employer or financial institutions concerned will necessarily chase people around the globe. When this has happened before generally not the case and Serco have never bothered, why, because it costs too much money. The thing to remember is, generally if the event has not occured on his home turf, generally very difficult to chase and prosecute, and that is a fact. How do I know this because of people I know who work in a bank here in UAE and that is the plain truth on the matter.

The banks here even build this into their bottom line because they know this happens (and has been happening for eons)

chow:ok: :ok:

despot

25th Oct 2005, 03:35

I turn my back for a few months, pfft.

The departure from AUH from my own experience is alittle frustrating but I found that the staff where more than flexible.

If ferris absconded, well I don't see how it makes a lick of difference to anyone else bar Serco. The practise hasn't been done in the past 4 years, but before that it was pretty common.

If management is saying that "from now on" para phrase then I think we've all been around enough to understand the word scapegoat.

I hear that things are improving there, and thats great.

You should hire a couple of goons for your jingly problem burj.

AirNoServicesAustralia

25th Oct 2005, 05:52

I'm sorry all, I was mistaken. Because others have committed crimes in the past, it is ok for us all to break the law. I was also mistaken in thinking that as Air Traffic Controllers we were professionals, and as such should act as professionals. We want to be compared to our peers (eg. Airline Pilots), when it comes to salary and accomodation packages, but when it comes to the way we act, it's obviously ok, to be compared to what taxi drivers and labourers do in this country on a regular basis.

You can all defend what he did, and say 1. He's going to fix it all up from Australia ( I highly doubt that), or 2. It's ok cos others have done it (still fraud committed, and no matter how many times done before, still a crime). You may also say, that noone is hurt by this, but as was said earlier the banks factor it in to their bottom line, so we left here with bank loans all pay collectively for Ferris's next racehorse purchase.

As I have said before, the banks may not pursue him in Oz, and neither may the authorities, but the backlash does come when a Serco employee goes to the banks concerned to get a loan and either we are told thanks but no thanks due to recent history, or we are made to pay a higher rate of interest. All in all, a stupid, selfish thing has been done.

AirNoServicesAustralia

25th Oct 2005, 06:38

Thanks Burj for the advice, but I do. I have never stolen money. I have never not paid what I have previously agreed to pay. If you refer to my family situation, I have paid for that many times over, and will continue to. I will not do a runner from that, and will continue to meet my obligations. But again thanks for the advice.

Again I say, no matter how many times it has been done before, it is still fraud.

It is obvious that I am in the minority here, in thinking this is wrong. There is no point continuing to swim against the tide, so you all enjoy your mutual SERCO/GCAA slagging session, and I will save my breath. Just don't moan to me next time your visa has a fraudulent transaction made on it. It happens all the time after all. The person doing it surely had good reasons in doing it. And after all it happens so often, the bank surely factors it into their bottom line. And then don't moan the following month when the Visa interest rates rise by another 1% to cover the lastest rise in fraudulent transactions.

Again why bother with all this, as I'm sure most of you don't have the mental capacity to draw the parallel. So forget it.

Enjoy.

ferris

25th Oct 2005, 07:56

It's bad news for those still there that this thread degenerated into somehow being about me. As stated, what does all this have to do with the AUH ACC and the working conditions there?
I am more than happy to discuss the full, complete story, and will open another thread (the spite thread).

In the mean time, ANSA, you can expect to be served next time you step foot in oz. Fair warning. You never were the sharpest tool in the shed.

cat man do

25th Oct 2005, 09:28

ferris

Grow up little man, you started the ball rolling by attacking the man, now you want to take action against someone who fights back. Well best I get my lawyers onto you for your slanders against my 'intelligence'. The spite thread concept is 'so you'.

ANSA

You are not amongst the minority, quite the opposite. A majority of the guys here agree with you. Yes we have issues and we have posted those several time but our little 'The end is nigh' broom stick protesters disagree.

Burj, guys like you will always give our profession a bad name, go and serve shakes with your mate.

cat out :zzz:

bathurstmews

25th Oct 2005, 12:29

Burgal mate

Your infantile replies give the impression that you and Ferris are co joined at the hip.

Think I'll go for a big Mac. Xtra fries and an up sized coke please.

Gotta laugh, nice one ANSA

yakkity yak

25th Oct 2005, 13:46

Cat and Airnobrains and Mr mews (or is it meows...read pussy)

Get off your bloody high perch and heed your own advice and play the ball and not the man...... yeah gotcha there boys!:p :p

Totally agree with Burj re his comments about "has this not happened before". It is obvious by your remarks you guys are either not very worldly, stupid, ignorant or have not spent much time in the Gulf OR a combination of all.

I know Cat has been there a while and knows this has gone on in the past and gosh yes pilots have done it (oh but they are so professional...surely their s**t doesnt stink either.....plllleeeease, get real they are only human) as well as taxi drivers and labourers and those in the oil industry etc, if they see an opportunity they will take it to, one can only put up with so much in this place.

So if you have no where else to go and/or are supervisor/management you will back the side of Cat and airnobrains.

:ooh: :ooh:

Which bring us back to the original thread, of why this has happened and why it has happened before and why it will happen again and why MOST people are unhappy with our conditions.

They (the conditions) need a major overhaul incl the jettisoning of excess baggage (Serco and RJ) out of all contracts in the ME to maintain stability and safety. This is what it is all about and the quicker we see this begin with the AUH contract the better off we will all be.

Now dont get too cocky as things will NOT improve overnight and will most likely take a few years until the right packages with appropriate conditons are offered. The relevant managements need to think way outside the box here and think laterally like the company that runs the gulf chopper mob throughout the ME and their roster of pilots..... something like a 6 week on 6 week off OR a variant of that 6 on 5 off and therefore the pay and conditions to highlight this, but the employee actually gets plenty of time away to recharge their batteries in home country with family and then back for six weeks with a roster that still meets CARS and most likely no leave will be required because the employee only actually works half the time so no leave needed.

No wonder my chopper pilot mates are laughing not only all the way to the bank, but having a great lifestyle as well. This would negate the need for the employer to provide extra amounts for accommodation, but a similiar rudementary type Serco accommodation as this is most likely all that would be needed here as most would be singles for the 6 week on bit and it would be cheaper over all for the employer as the actual wages would barlely need to rise and they would be able to most likely to pay around the current pay per month mark and most likely would be able to negotiate airfare deals with Gulf Air/Emirates to fly these guys home around 9 times per year (for very little infact), bloody good lifestyle if you ask me and as long as the employer paid you into a local UAE bank account all should be OK for tax. I for one would certainly sign up for this kind of offer, my chopper pilot mates love it, and still do some cashies back home.

PPR I am trying to drag this thread out of the mire, so please give us a chance to keep it running

Chow

bathurstmews

25th Oct 2005, 14:07

Yak Yak

Let me get this correct. You are suggesting that Serco recruit people to come on a six week off six week on basis and use simple basic accomodation! Somehow can't see professional married guys with young families seeing this as a big inducement.

So little sweet pea, how many staff will this require to run a 24/7 operation?
Do your chopper mates fly all through the night? Don't think so.

Suggest you go back to school and study some economics.

Engage brain before opening mouth little fellow.
Work out a business plan, simpleton.

cat man do

25th Oct 2005, 14:47

bathurstmews

Hey don't knock the man he is only thinking laterally, flat on his back after a pint or 22.

Yak yak, can't see it working. The cost per employee would be enormous, we are needing more staff as the traffic increases and yes, I agree, a package like that would certainly sound too good to be true but realistically that travelling back and forth would kill you. What's wrong with staying here?

It is quite amazing, we are arguing (or healthy debate, you choose) with each other about the same thing viz, salary must improve, accomadation must improve and conditions must improve. In between the nitty bitty detail we have only managed to turn on each other. I suggest (as ANSA started with) that the problems here are ours. Those that are leaving or have left should mind there own business (big Macs or otherwise).

burj dear boy, no nerve struck and agree with mr mews regarding the infantile replies, go on sue me, make my day punk :E .

cat out :zzz:

bathurstmews

25th Oct 2005, 15:29

Yo Ferris

yur street cred man is uncool 'cos:

on 21st Oct 05 you say "It saddens me when you get ideas that I am motivated out of spite"

& then

on 25th Oct 05 you say "I will open another thread (the spite thread).

R sole, you are flying off de planet into well deserved obscurity.

Reckon that why Melbourne has no vacancies, man!

AirNoServicesAustralia

25th Oct 2005, 21:45

Have to agree with the above posts. On one side is the guys who think everything is doomed and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. On the other side are those who feel things will shortly improve. Both sides agree that things need to improve drastically. Neither side will agree as to the future, and so all that we can do is wait and see. Therefore the thread has run its course and so no harm would be done in ending it.

yakkity yak

25th Oct 2005, 22:26

Gentlemen (and I use that term loosely for some)

firstly, Menstrual fool/ cherry bum/ Verci , a typical Serco management response, quash the discussion before maybe people start to think as a group and you are batting against an unstoppable tide. Too late for that bucko.

I quote airnobrains

[QUOTE]so all that we can do is wait and see.

This is definitely the last thing you want to do is sit and wait. We guys to be proactive with this. Yes, I know they dont like unions or the hint of group activity but that is what will actually accelerate our increase in conditions and pay, but the problem is you will actually have to be all prepared to fall on your own sword if necessary, and as you all seem to believe you have other "fantastic" jobs and places to return to them this should be no problem. Ferris did this (irrespective of how) but had to do it alone as some other have done in the past, but as has been proved one little voice at a time does little.

If we all went in to RJ (forget Serco here) on masse (at least a third of the staff) and basically said this is what we want (list of claims) and this is when we expect your positive response to this (say 7-14 days) and if the answer is no then we should be prepared to resign enmasse together. I can guarantee you that RJ will drop like a plum at our feet and give in. The centre cant survive with that many staff gone (and he knows that) and cant train that many in that space of time.

The only problem with this is that the Seffricans will not be party to it but they dont make more than half the roster. Like I said if you have such good job to go back to then this should be no problem. Remember that some of you shortly could be working as a Serco employee along side (or training) some expat as a GCAA direct hire who is earning more than you and will be better off than you, so maybe you should think hard about that one, I bet that will stick in your craw a bit, because it would mine.

You really have nothing to lose. IF you do nothing, you are drifting on the tides of fate and allowing someone else to dictate your future. At least Ferris bless him made his decision did what he felt he had to do, and left. At least he made a decision, whereas airno brains, cat and co want to sit and wait, well you should have a plan B like Ferris did (to go out on your terms) so you can pull the pin when required, mine is now in place (if required).

chow

Number2

25th Oct 2005, 23:57

Can someone please end this thread - you have all become offensive beyond any realms of humour or decency.

You just belittle yourselves and IMHO achieve nothing.

Hardly professional

sandborne

26th Oct 2005, 03:31

Looks like this thread is about to end so to all my sparring partners thanks it has been real and I just want to say I have nothing more to say
Better run Mewsy has got his intranet out to catch some fish and I don't want to get caught in it

cat man do

26th Oct 2005, 04:26

birdseed

Welcome to the healthy debate. Keep in mind the the unhappy (whinging) guys posting on this thread do not even live/work here anymore. Those that are providing some sort optimism are those still here. Now, why would guys who have left be so negative about this place? Makes you think? Burj, don't even try to convince me that you work here, how is the wx by the way? As for SS/rat, as one who might even be burj in another guise.

Yak yak, still yakking, done with the knitting dear? What's the deal with seffricans, took your job?

Ok, that is my last cat fight, time to get my cream, purr purr.

cat out :zzz:

sandborne

26th Oct 2005, 10:05

I said I had nothing more to say and don't worry I'm one of those people who can shut up when told to shut up because there's nothing worse then when someone goes on and on and on and on..... Where was I
Oh yes pprune radar can you leave this thread on here until we can post the contract details of next year and argue about those all over again. I promised I would post them. If things do improve I am not going to hide and not say I wasn't wrong here, just head off to the souk to haggle over the price of the extra large "Vuitton" wallet.

cheerylittlebottom

26th Oct 2005, 13:09

Is there not a man amoungst you with more that half a brain cell firing at full throttle??

I cannot believe that you have all followed my rapier sharp wit, my razor sharp humour and my needle sharp observations ( am running out of sharp things here) and still compare me to he-who-cannot-be -named.

Your lack of imagination and poor,poor guessing skills have left me underwhelmed. Well, ppruners, you dissappoint me. You are about as wrong with my id as you are with most of your points in your threads. It goes to show who is backing a dead horse here, dear friends.

You, burj and ferris, have attacked me with unwarrented ferociousness. How silly you are going to look if you eventually get to find out who I am. You latch onto a bad idea, run with it, making as much noise as possible, get it all wrong and end up with egg on your face, much like you do in the work place, eh, ferris. (and I'm not talking about MacDonalds)

This will probably be the last of me on this thread as it looks as though its spiralling into the black pit of oblivion. But I'm not making any promises.;)

Piniped, you haven't uttered a word since you opened this thread....

Nurse! Nurse! A last G & T and then you can pull the plug, dear........

divingduck

26th Oct 2005, 13:13

Well I go away for a week or so and look what happens!!!:sad:

All the slagging off at each other is hardly becoming guys, does not show our profession in a particularly good light.

As I am sure has been said an nauseum, argue the point. Don't play the man.

Your point of view will be much better received if put across in a calm, well reasoned and thoughtful manner.
Much of this drivel makes us all look like immature teenagers, both those posting and those that are trying to respond.

For the benefit of those that may think that they can get away with anything illegal in the future, an anecdote from Dubai (farily recent past).

Someone did an allegedly deliberate runner from his workplace, having racked up some fairly hefty debts.
Went back to the UK and, apparently knowing UK banking laws, thought he was bulletproof.
However, the Dubai bank were a little more aggressive in following it up, to the point of "selling" the debt to a third party collection agency.
The Dubai bank manager was congratulated by his management for at least regaining a small portion of what would have otherwise been written off as bad debt.
Our chap in the Uk however, had a knock on the door from two rather large men in long coats and baseball bats. No joke, he apparently spent some time in hospital with damaged legs.
He had been "encouraged" to pay back what was owed to them.
Not saying or suggesting anything about anyone mentioned on this thread, just a salient reminder to all that not everyone is a nice polite banker, who will just take losses on the chin.

Apart from that ,had a great time up in UAE and a fabulous couple of dives in the Musandam..including a dive during a coral spawn! Don't see that every day!

Foxy, welcome back, good to see that Wilma didn't get you!

:ok:

Fox3snapshot

26th Oct 2005, 14:42

Cheerz mate....Wilma did actually get me, it was one of the KLM girls but that's another story :E

Its good to be home, most of my spare time has been taken up trying to wade through all of these posts....seems a lot of people out there need a hug :p

Keep smiling guys and gals things can't get any worse and after all if you are all good Santa will bring you a new contract and everybody will live happily ever after :O

yakkity yak

29th Oct 2005, 04:16

Gents

gone very quiet on this thread all of a sudden.

I guess the GCAA and Serco mangagment crisis meeting about what to do about the PPrune posters has started to have impact. I guess they are threatening to fire if they suspect anyone. :mad: :mad:

Well management wallys keep looking and keep threatening, you are on your last legs and you know it. For those of us still here, some are working on exit strategies as we speak, which will only make matters worse for you.

Foxxy how about comment from you as you are only 8 or so weeks from exit or did the DANS offer you better than Muscat?
Iam guessing the latter >30K dhs/mth so now your direct and you get your gratuity from Serco still?

Si ti would seem Muscat now have 4 holes to fill the 3 who's contracts were rescinded plus it would appear Fox.

Bet the SATCO down there is pissed off.

Have they lost the contract yet?

Chow

Fox3snapshot

29th Oct 2005, 11:18

Your callsign is quite appropriate...:E

All will be revealed in good time.....:cool:

bathurstmews

29th Oct 2005, 14:28

G'day guys.

been a fun thread. Think I'll fly away on my magic carpet.

Good luck to all the 3rd spear carriers in the 2nd act.
May you continue to believe that one day you might become leading men.

Nurse, nurse, pass the ZIT cream.

Burj, corner shop doing ok?

Ciao, bambini

Apologies to the good guys/girls out there

sandstorm inferno

29th Oct 2005, 20:34

its funny how some atco's on this thread is talking about poor management, second-hand furnitures, lousy accomodation, sh!ty airlines etc., when there's quite a few second-hand expat controllers as well :} Feel free to comment :cool:

yakkity yak

29th Oct 2005, 23:52

KK (sfb)

:} :}

Good to see you have finally come up for air. If you had bothered to read all earlier posts I have already said I did not work on ABu Dhabi GCAA contract, but elsewhere in the sandpit, so I am probably one of the last to recieve info, but usually is reliable though.

I am just boxing with foxxy and as he said all will be revealed shortly. Dont worry fox you're OK son!

KK I sugguest you hop back in your box (and Beamer) in Doha and stay there, unless you have something positive or interesting to add this thread, that does not involve playing the man or attempting to discredit others.

Again, you like the others (ie ANSA, cheery twit, sandstorm, cat... most of whom are management or would be management) who are attempting to back up their reasons for staying there (because like you they have no where else to go unlike me who does and will).

The sooner and the longer this thread goes andthe more people who actually get to see what Serco and the GCAA is really like ;the better off those of us who are left here may be in the long term because the pay and conditions will have to improve to fill the voids left by those who are leaving or about to leave, simple market forces will see to that AND PPrune of course. And mark my words, if the GCAA start offering contracts out at different levels of pay (which would appear to be actually what is happening) then there will be a riot down the line.)

The potential losers short term here will be those Serco supervisors (mainly Seffricans and hasbeens ...who are like kaffirs as they are bootted around and told what to do by management and obey!!) who may end up being under paid compared to the directs...like foxxy and being a single guy will be laughing all the way to the bank or the pub. (lol)

My closing remark is to CS the Satco in Muscat is, it looks like you were incorrect when it was said that that sort of money would not be on the horizon in the Gulf, well think again my friend, it would be wise to get the check book out if you want to get the quality controllers there, and you will be needing to pay in the vicinity of the equivalent of 33,000 - 35,000 dhs per month.

Chow

cat man do

30th Oct 2005, 03:14

KK I sugguest you hop back in your box (and Beamer) in Doha and stay there, unless you have something positive or interesting to add this thread, that does not involve playing the man or attempting to discredit others.

If you had bothered to read all earlier posts I have already said I did not work on ABu Dhabi GCAA contract

The potential losers short term here will be those Serco supervisors (mainly Seffricans and hasbeens ...who are like kaffirs as they are bootted around and told what to do by management and obey!!)

Want to contradict yourself a bit more. You are nothing but stupid and offensive.

cat out :zzz:

Tweety

30th Oct 2005, 08:42

All

Have been watching all the antics on this thread. In amongst the drivel is also a lot of very good info for those thinking of making a change to AUH/GCAA contract.

IN a nutshell, go if you dare as it is a bloody nightmare.

Considering the amount of management types who have attempted to hijack this thread, Cat, cheery arse, CMF, ANSA, sandborne, and so on and so on in an attempt to put the Serco and the whole contract in a good light have failed miserably I must say.

I must agree with Ferris, burj and Yak that you are all attempting to qualify your own reasons to stay (and must assume from this that you do not have anywhere to go to) as you have no choice.

While that is the case you will always get the raw end of the prawn and be treated as second class employees, but then I guess you are used to it by now.

As for procedures and keeping to CARS well it has never happened, and doubt it ever will while the current mangement clowns Cat, cheery arse, CMF etc are in charge.

:mad: :mad:

quadradar

30th Oct 2005, 09:33

It could be worse you know .....

You could be living in a 5 or 6 storey high Khaladiya Block having your toilets flooding and water pipes bursting .... and workmen falling off the new floors being built above your heads (with their rubbish chutes coming down past your bedroom window ....)

Working all night on AR5 at Bateen with pipe smokers (2) and ciggy smokers (nearly all the rest !) and rats pinching your sandwiches .....

You lot have it so good now !
:\

Fox3snapshot

30th Oct 2005, 13:56

Yeah...but we don't have Arlene's scones, and the boss doesn't shout morning tea on Friday's! :{

See you in January, make sure you have a dozen cold Mac's Ales in the fridge and don't skimp on the whitebait paddy's for beer snacks! :ok:

throw a dyce

30th Oct 2005, 17:37

Quadradar,
Khaladiya! Sheer luxury.Try Choitrums(forget spelling been so long) Any floor below 4th no go area.No doors in the lifts,and outside turns into a lake if it rains.Good point was it was away from Management and a supermarket at the bottom. wow!!.
Khaladiya had 10 or 11 floors eventually but I think it was condemned, fell down or something:ok:

letMfly

30th Oct 2005, 17:54

Quadradar
You could be living in a 5 or 6 storey high Khaladiya Block having your toilets flooding and water pipes bursting .... and workmen falling off the new floors being built above your heads (with their rubbish chutes coming down past your bedroom window ....)
You were lucky mate! I was living in Al Slummit Block having my toilets flooding and water pipes bursting .... and workmen falling off the six new floors being built above my head (with the rubbish chute coming down past my bedroom window).

After a long battle with management I was moved to .... the 5 or 6 storey high Khalidya Block etc etc!!!

Wasn't it Margaret C who had a workman leave his flip-flop on her balcony as he raced by at terminal velocity?

Ah, memories!

Fox3snapshot

30th Oct 2005, 19:13

Ahhh yes those were the days eh? Tiger Moths, Vary Pistols, Biggles, "chocks away" and all that good poop! :p

quadradar

31st Oct 2005, 01:17

Actually it was a boot not a flip flop ! (Minus the foot thankfully !)

But then we were so lucky - we got moved to Abandoned Villas knee deep in sand and geckos with leaky roofs and stuffed air con units .... such luxury sitting in the third seat of a 504 driven by Graham Fangio W at 160 kph on unlit camel strewn roads from Jebel Ali ....

Amazing we are all here really isn't it !

Fond memories of fish and egg rolls from Bateen canteen and "Emirates Burgers" from EAS ....

Shwarmas to die for at Satwa ....

Watching a bloodshot eyed Mal C digging a dhow out of the beach at the Corniche in the middle of Ramadan ....

"On On" you lot ....

bathurstmews

1st Nov 2005, 13:47

Yep

and guys sitting in approach sucking on oranges. Happy Daze!

Tweety, Yak Yak: All same person, uh? Reckon you flew away on Burgal's magic carpets?

Burgal mentioned his wardrobe before. Did you take that or where you in it when he came home?

letMfly

1st Nov 2005, 14:18

Fox3snapshot
Ahhh yes those were the days eh? Tiger Moths, Vary Pistols, Biggles, "chocks away" and all that good poop!
Sad thing is, your not far off the mark! BTW We were on 7000AED/month and nobody moaned (probably because PPRUNE hadn't been invented). Come to think of it, computers hadn't been invented!

quadradar
Amazing we are all here really isn't it !
Tell me about it. I was in the number two seat when OBJ had a 140kph blow-out 10k short of Jebel Ali after the afternoon shift. Thinking ourselves lucky to have survived we then discovered that there was no spare, so the three of us (Warren effing E was in the back) started legging it in the sweltering summer heat. We thought our troubles were over when we were stopped by the fuzz who wanted to know what we were up to on the main highway in the middle of the night . Having tried to explain our problem, he then grunted and drove off! If it wasn't for four locals in a clapped out Sunny who gave us a lift (think of it - seven big blokes in a Sunny!!!)we would have been in a right old state.

Do you remember the spoof LATCI after the new cleaner binned all of the days flight strips. Mike B, the deputy SATCO blew a gasket and introduced the "handwriting specimen book" to try to identify the spoofer. Does it still exist, I wonder?
Fond memories of fish and egg rolls from Bateen canteen and "Emirates Burgers" from EAS ....

Shwarmas to die for at Satwa ....
mmmmm - almost makes me want to sign up for another tour!

Apologies to Piniped for hijacking the thread.

On with the bun fight.

letMfly out

Fox3snapshot

1st Nov 2005, 15:40

Blimey...7000 AED back in '37' would equate to about 38,000 AED now. No wonder you weren't complaining! :E

BTW don't worry about hijaking Pinipeds thread, I know who he is and I think he is quietly amused by the results of the hand grenade he threw into the forums with this topic...:p

piniped

1st Nov 2005, 19:14

The thread had run its course anyway.

I may change my handle to the scarlet pimpernel...they seek him here, they seek him there, etc etc

good to see a bit of friendly banter for a change:ok:

throw a dyce

1st Nov 2005, 20:55

LetMfly.

Sign up for another tour??!! What would the ZZZZZ team do without you?
Hey you didn't mention a certain Ronnie Renege and his Bloody Mary parties after the doggos.The Cardinal took no prisoners especially in Ramadan.
I also got kidnapped a few time as those guys had run out of booze licence;After 2 days into the month!!!

I think this bun fight has finally been torpedoed into the Straights of Hormuz.Then again:cool:

bathurstmews

2nd Nov 2005, 18:22

Good to see that that some nice guys with good stories and pleasant memories have turned up.
Also good to see that all the little gribblies, 2nd hand jobs, etc i.e Ferris, Yak Yak, Burj, & other assorted losers have wandered off into the wide blue yonder.

Now, the world will be a better place.
Salam Al aleikum.

quadradar

2nd Nov 2005, 23:38

My first night in Abu Dhabi kinda says it all about ATC Management .... although there was a tech at the airport to meet a new arriving tech there was no-one to meet the two new ATCO's .... Keith K and myself ....

The "local" tech said "I think you usually go the transit flat on first arrival - I'll take you there ... ...."

At something like 3am we hammer on the door of said flat ..... door opens to reveal a toothy bleary eyed Pakistani in a dishdash ..... tech tells him the story while we stand there thinking "what the hell have we come to ......" .

After pondering the story said dishdash speaks ....

"Welcome darlings ...... do come in ....."

Never slept a wink that night ..... (!) but soon got to know the Great Man "Huss" of ancient Bateen Tower fame !

Many a urination I had on Huss's Bateen Tower balcony escape hatch toilet after that !

Wasn't long after that John W (Al Dhafra / Muquatra Manager) got escorted from the base after offending the Base Commander at morning briefing and Cliff C got the job.

Must have been about the same time Ron H pinched the royal boat in the Maldives and got kicked out of there .... God bless you Ron - rest in peace mate.

You lot missed the "Best" years !!!