WestJet

[Mostly Harmless]

Well, after all of the rumors they have actually lowered the minimums to 2500 hours.

[flywestjetcr]

I have seen that too. We'll see what happens though once everything shakes down from the big changes in Pilot Hiring. I'm sure that KM will put his own stamp on how things are done. Thanks to GB for the hard work you have put into this department.

[chockstarfish]

Good to hear for guys wanting to fly a shiny jet, but are they paying any better, great to fly a multi million dollar airplane then when you are finished work hop into your 1984 ford fiesta with an 8 track in it

[yoohoo748]

It is a sweat shop. WestJet, or rather Canada. There is really only one carrier in Canada that is really worth working for, and I would be quite amazed if all the W. Jetters didn’t' have their CV in the pile. Much better pay, greater lifestyle. The lifestyle we have all worked so many years after. As a lover of Canada, I would love to be there, but I have chosen to take a tour of the world to explore, make some decent dough, and escape the Canadian tax system (is it not a killer?!!?!)

For those of you at WJ (or other low-cost/start-up) now, get your CV together and get it to A/C ASAP or overseas if you know what is good for you. The days of making good dough at WJ are over. While there are a few rich folks riding around in the 73, those days are over if you have not figured that out. WJ stocks are not worth it. And profit sharing? How were your last few cheques... especially after Jetsgo hit the ditch!!

For those of you with the min requirements for WJ; get your ass into A/C. Keep you asses out of low cost, low pay. Low cost does not have to mean low pay. Look at S. West. Are they underpaid? Not from what I hear.

There are a few reasons that the Canadian industry is in the toilet; miss-management is one, supply and demand is the other. The jobs are out there boys (and girls), but you might have to leave the country to get the one that pays. Don't be scared of crossing the pond, being over seas rocks.

AND>>> for those of you living in Calgary, living with your wife and two kids in a one bedroom apartment because WJ simply cannot pay the bills, give me a call.

Ciao for now, talk to you on the flip side.

Ex Canada guy.

[medflyer]

Ok, nice post, but is it really that simple? How do you go overseas without the jet time that WJ would provide?

[in limbo]

Hey medflyer.
I tried to send you a pm but your mail box is full.
cheers:}

[medflyer]

Should be all cleared out now :ok:

[Slapshot]

O.K. I'll bite...

"It is a sweat shop. WestJet, or rather Canada. There is really only one carrier in Canada that is really worth working for, and I would be quite amazed if all the W. Jetters didn’t' have their CV in the pile. Much better pay, greater lifestyle. The lifestyle we have all worked so many years after."


Sweat shop... How do you figure? I've got a minimum of 12 days off a month. In the last 3 I have had an average of 15 days off. I'll work 60 - 70 hours of sticktime a month. We fly one of the most technologically advanced aircraft in the air today. We use the FMS to it's fullest with RNP and "own navigation" for approaches. We are pioneer's in the field of RNP. We fly all over Canada, into the U.S. and Hawaii, not to mention most places in the Caribbean and Mexico. Hardly a Sweatshop...

Lifestyle. In addition to the days off my requests are more often than not given to me when I build a schedule for the next month. No one, and I mean NOT ONE of our pilots is sitting around on reserve waiting for the phone to ring... How's that for lifestyle?

Vacation. I've got 6 weeks to do with as I wish. We run a "point" system so all pilots have an equal shot at getting Easter and Christmas off. None of the, "You'll be senior one day." B.S. regarding vacation bidding...

"As a lover of Canada, I would love to be there, but I have chosen to take a tour of the world to explore, make some decent dough, and escape the Canadian tax system (is it not a killer?!!?!)"

While I know nothing about your job or your lifestyle - something that doesn't deter you from slagging my "lack thereof" - I would hazard a guess that things are not as rosy as you would lead us to believe... Having worked overseas I have experienced the lack of work rules to protect "lifestyle" and the lack of rapour between Pilot's and Management that creates friction and animosity in the workplace...

"For those of you at WJ (or other low-cost/start-up) now, get your CV together and get it to A/C ASAP or overseas if you know what is good for you. The days of making good dough at WJ are over. While there are a few rich folks riding around in the 73, those days are over if you have not figured that out. WJ stocks are not worth it. And profit sharing? How were your last few cheques... especially after Jetsgo hit the ditch!!"

I have worked oversea's and have come to realize that the grass is not always greener... That "Big Paycheque" that I chased was not nearly as big as it had looked on paper before I left Canada. Do not underestimate the cost's involved in working oversea's. It was very expensive...

As for the Profit Sharing cheques... I took home an extra paycheque thank you very much. Free money and much appreciated. As for stock not worth it... Your ignorance is showing. We buy at 1/2 price. The company matches our contribution. We are virtually doubling up on shares right now with the "downturn" in the market of last summer... Now with the low oil prices and stabilized market the rebound is increasing the worth of those shares we bought "at a discount" last summer...

I spent a number of years flying oversea's for a "respected" carrier... It's not all it's cracked up to be. It was an expensive, trying adventure. It was a struggle adapting to an Airline that saw a Pilot as piece of meat to do with as they wish. No work rules, no penalties for "misusing" an asset. Try misusing their equipment however and you'd hear about it...

A schedule that was handed to you with no regard whatsoever for my requests. A schedule that changed with a phone call. Looking forward to some overtime to pay for a little luxury? Sorry, you are now on Stand-By, no overtime... Roster "balancing" was something I was very acquainted with by the end of my tenure...

I'll stay where I am thank you very much. With 12 Boeing's coming in 2006, and more announced for 2007 and 2008, command's will be coming quickly again as they had before the last "downturn".

I encourage anyone with the right attitude to come here and join the team.

[Left Coaster]

Would you mind "explaining" to the rest of the aviation world just how WJ is a pioneer (!) in the RNP business? I would think that at least a few other carriers are WAY ahead of you when it comes to leading the way in navigation...It wasn't that long ago when all you had were -200's...What's next? You invented ETOPS?

[lostav8r]

As a 1900 driver, I've nothing to compare it to, but, I've seen Westjet's RNP approach plates for Kelowna, and it's fargin amazing. If there are other carriers out there "Way ahead" I want to see it.

[breguet]

One of the pioneer of RNP approaches is Alaska Airlines. Westjet did not invent the concept nor pioneered it. They are just the first one in Canada to use it. It was used bu others weel before pilots at Wesjet knew about it....:suspect:

[Slapshot]

We are currently the only airline in Canada and the world's first in using RNP approaches/navigation down to .1. We are acquiring data, building approaches, liaising with Transport and designing the manner in which these approaches are implemented. We are the only airline flying ILS quality approaches to non-precision airports. Kelowna is an example to runway 33.

Our aim is to use RNP for CAT I ILS approach minima to what are currently non-precision approaches. Our goal is a .01 RNP.

Transport Canada is very interested and has been on board from the beginning. They see RNP as a way to reduce their costs, offer precision approach service to many more airports, without the cost of ground based nav aids or instrumentation.

If that is not a Pioneer, I don't know what your definition is...

Alaska is embarking on the same programme in the 'States. We are working together in many aspects of the programme. Their programme revolved around the HUD in the old 727 when they flew it, ours revolves around the Smith's FMS in the Boeing 737 NG.

Alaska now flies RNP approaches into Palm Springs, Juneau and several other airports in Alaska with their 737NG's. We fly to many more cities using the RNP approach and have the unique ability to acquire more data and experience in a shorter period of time.

"I've seen Westjet's RNP approach plates for Kelowna, and it's fargin amazing."

It's just as amazing to use in our day to day operation.

World's first to use RNP .1 Navigation (http://sev.prnewswire.com/aerospace-defense/20040915/SFTU08714092004-1.html)

[CaptW5]

Naverus, the company that develops the RNP approaches, was started by some Alaska Airlines pilots. Not sure if they still work there or not.
Naverus also does work for Qantas and AirNZ now.
http://www.naverus.com/index.htm

[b612]

Don't forget WJ's area of world leading expertise - corporate espionage!

[rotornut]

WestJet faces new allegations Air Canada alleges WestJet ran campaign to steal confidential data from 'evil empire' By BRENT JANG

Friday, December 9, 2005 Posted at 4:15 AM EST

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Air Canada alleges that WestJet Airlines Ltd. ran an espionage campaign code-named the "007 Project" to steal confidential data from the larger carrier's "evil empire," allowing WestJet to strategically launch flights to the United States.

In new court filings, Air Canada further alleges that WestJet's snooping was designed in part to thwart the Montreal-based carrier's emergence from bankruptcy protection.

Not only did WestJet spy on Air Canada and defunct Jetsgo Corp., but it also gained access to secret statistics at CanJet Airlines of Halifax, according to documents filed in the Ontario Superior Court.

Air Canada said the latest revelations came to light after court-appointed forensic auditors scrutinized hard drives seized from Calgary-based WestJet.

In April last year, Air Canada launched a $220-million lawsuit accusing WestJet of corporate espionage. WestJet denies any wrongdoing and none of the allegations have been proven in court.

Air Canada sought protection in April, 2003, under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act, and emerged from bankruptcy protection in September, 2004.

Benjamin Smith, Air Canada's vice-president of planning, said in an affidavit that WestJet "attempted to undermine" the CCAA process.

Mr. Smith attached 24 exhibits to his affidavit, including a copy of an e-mail exchange between WestJet co-founders Mark Hill and Clive Beddoe, WestJet's chairman and chief executive officer.

Mr. Hill said in an e-mail from his BlackBerry, dated Sept. 11, 2003, that WestJet obtained a list of Air Canada's 200 weakest routes. If WestJet were to leak such information, "AC would have some serious back-tracking and explaining to do to potential investors, and would further weaken their credibility in all quarters," Mr. Hill said.

Another e-mail written by Mr. Hill, WestJet's former vice-president of strategic planning who resigned from the airline in mid-2004, points to the "evil empire" database, referring to Air Canada's load factors, or the proportion of available seats filled.

Code words used in the subject fields of e-mails included "Schtuff" and "Wayne," to alert recipients that the topic would be the 007 Project, and "WestJet and Hill often used the term 'evil empire' to refer to" Air Canada, according to Mr. Smith's affidavit, dated Nov. 28.

Various e-mails show that Air Canada's confidential data was used by WestJet to help plan transborder flights to the United States from Canada, Mr. Smith said.

Air Canada and a subsidiary allege that their smaller rival hacked into a confidential website for Air Canada employees and retirees.

Forensic auditors have determined that Mr. Hill "was analyzing the plaintiff's confidential employee website information in order to assist WestJet in expanding its routes into the United States," Mr. Smith said.

Mr. Smith alleges WestJet gained access to confidential data from CanJet and Jetsgo, and that WestJet found it "both useful and valuable" to obtain Air Canada's "real-time, flight-specific" information.

He added that Mr. Hill sent an e-mail "thoroughly analyzing Jetsgo's, CanJet's and Air Canada's load factors into Florida's destinations" in an effort to plot WestJet's new flights. "The information in this e-mail is not publicly available and could not have been obtained from manual counting of passengers at airport terminals," Mr. Smith said.

Air Canada alleges that WestJet's 007 Project grew increasingly sophisticated as the discount carrier found a way to automate "the accessing and analyzing" of Air Canada's internal data.

Air Canada said it uncovered e-mails from Mr. Hill at the address "[email protected]" (MH are the initials of Mark Hill; YYJ is airport code for Victoria, where he lives). The e-mails appear to indicate he had access to sensitive information, including a letter written by an Air Canada employee to Victor Li at Trinity Time Investments Ltd., which had offered to bail out Air Canada but later withdrew its offer.

Mr. Smith complains that WestJet has yet to produce documents to shed more light on why WestJet transferred its Central Canadian base to Toronto's Pearson International Airport from Hamilton.

[Tan]

All sorts of rumors of WJ operating a 737/7/800 at 430...Is that also a world's first?

[Slapshot]

Tan, there is a rumour of a 737 being operated at FL430. No Airline has admitted one of their machines being at that altitude.

One of my bretheren here at WestJet informs me that it was not one of our machines...

rotornut, nothing new there... Lot's of "He said, She said" allegations... Nothing has been proved in court. Until the facts come out in court it's a thinly veiled attempt to smear WestJet and those that work here...

[WJman]

Would you mind "explaining" to the rest of the aviation world just how WJ is a pioneer (!) in the RNP business? I would think that at least a few other carriers are WAY ahead of you when it comes to leading the way in navigation.

Insert foot in mouth..............now!! Then remove and wish you had researched before commenting.
Do over as needed.

[Tan]

Slapshot

I have to admire your faith in denial of all the facts it does prove that brain washing works.

[Slapshot]

What "facts" have you seen? I put it to you that the only "facts" that you, or I for that matter, are privy to are the ones reported in the newspaper's...

We all know how accurate newspapers are with respect to aviation...

WestJet's position is that they used information obtainable by a variety of sources - all legal - in the day to day operation of our Airline.

Air Canada's position is that they have suffered harm in a monetary sense and seek compensation.

Air Canada, however, neglects to spell out the damages by allowing the court to see documented evidence of the damages... By showing the books, by providing evidence of the damage and putting a dollar cost to it, the case would be over.

However it is not in the best interest of Air Canada to end the case. By trotting out press releases they can harm our reputation and attempt to undermine our morale with impunity by adding the tag line- "None of the accusations have been proven in court".

[Tan]

Flying at 430 with all that WJ brain washing must have affected your common sense, whatever good luck..

[Slapshot]

I don't know what you are talking about, and I dare say neither do you... Do you even know where the supposed aircraft was at FL430? Was it even in Canadian Airspace or a Canadian Aircraft?

I have it on good authority that no WestJet Aircraft have exceeded FL410. I doubt the incident you refer to ever occurred...

There have been references to poor lifestyle and quality of living in this thread. I have undertaken to rebut those accusations. After I have stated facts others have countered with supposition.

As someone more eloquent than I once said, "Common sense ain't that common..." Good luck to you...

[Tan]

Funny how some rumors always have an element of truth in them..

Good Luck on your court case.

[Left Coaster]

WJman...
Insert my foot in your backside you mean...where is the proof you state I should be looking for? Show me HOW WJ is pioneering this system. I agree that it's a very good approach and yes you are putting a good ole Canadian spin on it! But I challenge you to show us that WJ is a pioneer in this area. As a someone who looked long and hard at implementing it at an airline he once worked for, I know more about it than you might think...:p

[WJman]

http://www.itp.net/business/features/details.php?id=2904&srh=&tbl=itp_features

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/11285p4.xml

Up to now, RNP has only been implemented where a particular airline, such as WestJet or Alaska, has driven the process and done the work itself or subcontracted to a third party, such as Naverus. However, in the USA, the FAA is starting to approve public approaches that can be used by all aircraft, beginning with an approach to Reagan Washington National Airport. Reagan is clearly not in a mountainous area, but the numerous restricted flying areas in the US capital, especially since 9/11, make it a complex approach.

One item found on a simple search.

WJman...
Insert my foot in your backside you mean.

Watch where you put that thing, I'm not your type of guy.

[Slapshot]

Show me HOW WJ is pioneering this system.

You must not have read my post on the previous page... I'll post just one paragraph here:

The newly-approved procedures provide WestJet with the highest level of navigational precision currently available. To date, no other airline has been given operational approval to fly RNP 0.10 procedures. The approval caps a year-long process of design, flight testing, and review by WestJet, Naverus and the Canadian regulator. "This is an exciting milestone for WestJet, and means great things for our guests," said Tim Morgan, WestJet Senior Vice President and Co-Chief Operating Officer. "Naverus is unlocking the advanced navigational systems in our 737-NG fleet with their expertise, and Transport Canada has responded with the right combination of scrutiny, knowledge and willingness to make advances that benefit Canada."

If no other Airline has been given operational approval to fly to .1 Nm would that not make us a pioneer? Are we not using the approaches no other airline is attempting at our Airports? Are we not acquiring data for Transport to formulate policy for the rest of the industry?

[Willie Everlearn]

What are your new 'minimums'?? as a result of this RNP .10 gimmickry?

:confused:

[rotornut]

Going back yo my earlier post, you cannot bring a frivolous or vexatious lawsuit without very serious cost consequences. So I suggest Air Canada has merit in it's claim as was stated in the Globe & Mail article. But who cares? I have flown WJ regularly as well as AC. If AC wins against WJ I'll still fly WJ when the price and schedule are right.

[Slapshot]

"What are your new 'minimums'?? as a result of this RNP .10 gimmickry?"

Right now we fly to .1 Nm on the approach (lateral navigation), but our Decision Altitude is predicated on .3 Nm for safety and data gathering. For YQM it's 316' above aerodrome elevation and 1 mile for runway 24, for YLW it is 456' and 1 1/2 for runway 34.

That compares to 347' for the VOR app in YQM and there is no published straight-in approach in YLW for 34.

After a year or so of data gathering for Transport Canada, we hope to lower the minimums for the RNP approaches we conduct. NavCanada is working with us as well, gathering data towards our goal.

Cheers.

[WJman]

Left Coaster,
will you know please insert foot in mouth. You have what you need, and..................................begin!!! :O

[Left Coaster]

Hmmm...let's see sonny boy...I challenged a statement that WJ was a (to paraphrase) "pioneer" in the business of RNP and the like, nowhere did I ever slag the company! Or more simply put, it would seem that proof was asked for after you bragged that WJ was top of the heap! (We all know how WJ gathers it's info these days and how your CEO conducts his business, but that's not my concern.) You have some very excellent people in your flight operations and flight training departments, and the ones I know quite possibly would appreciate a "quieter" approach to thier successes. So I will ask politely (first) that you remove your own foot from whatever orifice you enjoy sticking it in and remember an old saying..."It's better to keep one's own mouth shut, and have people THINK you're stupid, than to open it and PROVE it"
Bye for now...junior
:eek:

[WJman]

I couldn't find the bragging statement you were talking about.
I also think you should take your own advice. The again what do I know eh! Grandpa.

[Saltaire]

It does sound interesting to see this RNP technology reduce minimums on non precision approaches and possibly save some fuel on long procedures to the final approach. Places like Kelowna come to mind, and I guess Regan if WJ fly there. The only issue is that in all the high density airports with radar vectors to an ILS it won't really have any cost benefit. Places like YVR, YUL, YEG, YYC and YYZ to name a few. Think of the HUD's WJ paid for and tried to implement....where are those things? Having said that, the new tech does sound great and if it does save some $ then you can't argue with that.....especially as an Owner ;)

[Slapshot]

I was told recently that the approach we have mapped out for Abbotsford (CYXX) that begins at the HE beacon would save us enough money in fuel and time over the course of one year's operation to pay for the whole RNP programme.

RNP is a big deal and it will save us money, getting people to where they want to go in all kinds of weather.

There is a procedure for CYYC and CYEG that involve overflying the airport saving time with no radar vectors. NavCanada likes this procedure as it puts us at a defined place at a defined speed consistently. Easily fitting traffic in and around us as we perform the profile. As for CYVR and CYYZ, they are "lost causes" as far as radar vectors and "controller input" on the approach IMHO...

[Left Coaster]

Guess I've been "told"! I should have remembered that jousting with a "westjetter" (whatever...) will never lead to anything but frustration...no way to win a koolaid drinking contest with a guy like you...too much practise! Have fun and remember that even though you work for wj...you're still in Canada and paying taxes on that profit sharing cheque (although I hear it's a little smaller these days)...Am I?
Bye Bye:p

[WJman]

Great sound advice filled with the same old jabs every one else uses when they can no longer come up with anything worth writing.
I suggest you worry about the size of your profit sharing and your own airlines success beofre deciding to try and tell me how mine is. I'm happy, we're doing great and I work at the best airline in Canada.

[Left Coaster]

Thanks for proving it for me...:rolleyes: Gotta go...chilly ones by the pool and the BBQ will be ready soon...All the best to you and yours this season. Happy Holidays...:ok:

[yoohoo748]

Slapshot; far too much cool-aid for you. Same for WJman (nothing personal guys… I am sure that you guys would be good guys to go for a pint with) I don’t know what carrier that you worked for overseas but if it didn’t work out for you that is too bad. Working overseas can really open ones eyes to the rest of the world. I have only been overseas for a short period and I am already looking to get my first Porsche (could never dream of that in Canada… Even if I was working for Canada’s number one carrier (A/C if anybody is wondering)). Keep in mind that I was never really an a/c fan; Canadian was more my choosing… just realize who really is number one in Canada. I am not only talking passenger numbers, but also lifestyle and pay. To think that WJ can hold a candle to what A/C can offer us is silly. Absurd. I know that all (most?) people at westjet think that they are at the top of the heap, and that is the culture. That is ok... but one has to realize that while they may be number one in a few areas, they really are number two wanting to be number one.

Back to my original point. The industry in Canada has been headed for the toilet. Low cost airlines might be a good place to gain some time, but if you can some how avoid that pit, do so. A/C or overseas. Get yourself out there. For our sakes and for our future peers. Low cost is here to stay, but that does not have to mean low pay; if we play hard to get by not taking the easy route the ‘wj’s’ of the future will have to buck up to find people. We have put too much blood and sweat into this to be paid peanuts. For the responsibility and hard work we all need to be remunerated accordingly. We put in long days and our job is on the line up to 4 times a year when you consider rides and medicals alone. I have seen competent guys fail rides, and healthy guys fail medicals. NO guarantees. A colleague of mine who is close to retiring said that if you are able to get a seat at a legacy carrier, get it, then never let it go. That is what he has done, and he has done very well. There are a few people in Calgary who might consider WJ to be a legacy carrier, but others might not see it that way. Perhaps WJ will make it, I don’t know. But A/C is the proven and they are looking (last I heard, but I am out of the loop). Overseas for those that don’t get on is a great choice, maybe not for all though. Some can’t hack it and put the blame on ‘the high cost of living overseas’. What they forget is with this higher cost comes a larger disposable income and better lifestyle.

Oh, and one more thing. My facts are not what they seem to be; they are feelings. WJ might be able to provide a ‘decent’ living, and stock options might be working out for some; but there is nothing better than seeing my paycheck with no deductions. None. Two months holidays a year? To start? And making the equivalent of 160k CAD to start? Not bad…. I kinda like it. A Canadian outfit would have offer me much more than that for me to miss out on the experience.

Have a good day.

PS… If some of this post does not make ton’s of sense chalk it up to Gentleman Jack. He was serving a good bit of flavour tonight.

[Tan]

WestJet CEO Clive Beddoe said some staff betrayed the company.
Jason Kirby, Financial Post
Published: Saturday, December 17, 2005
VANCOUVER - Clive Beddoe, CEO of WestJet Airline Ltd., spoke out yesterday about the corporate espionage lawsuit filed against the airline by rival Air Canada, calling it "malicious," while at the same time indicating the actions of some WestJet employees were "inappropriate."

Air Canada filed documents last week as part of its $220-million lawsuit that contained e-mails sent to senior WestJet executives, including Mr. Beddoe. The lawsuit claims the e-mails, which discuss a "007 project," are part of an alleged effort by WestJet to steal Air Canada's confidential information.

Mr. Beddoe, in Vancouver as part of a charity event to deliver a planeload of toys to sick children at a local hospital, initially declined to comment on the revelation of the e-mails or the allegations.

"All I can say is judge us by the integrity of the organization that we are, and not by the malicious ways in which we've been depicted by our competitors," he said.

Mr. Beddoe said the lawsuit, which has not been proven in court, has not hurt WestJet's public image, judging by the company's strong performance.

But he did say some employees betrayed the company's trust by taking things "too far."

"We're a company that believes in trusting people and I would always rather trust people than not trust people," he said. "Sometimes when you trust people, you get burned, and sometimes people make mistakes. That's just life, but it's not our corporate style."

He acknowledged the company is paying for those mistakes.

"When the odd person does something that is inappropriate, we're going to get slapped for it," he said.

WestJet has argued it did not break any laws by gathering data on its rivals.

Mr. Beddoe arrived from WestJet's Calgary head office on one of the last remaining planes from the company's original fleet of aircraft. Westjet has retired virtually all of its 737-200 series jets to replace them with newer, more fuel-efficient aircraft.

Mr. Beddoe said WestJet plans to grow the airline at a rate of six or seven new planes a year.

It is a popular belief among some analysts that WestJet will have a hard time repeating its past growth rates because there is less room to grow in Canada.

But Mr. Beddoe said the airline sees opportunity in both domestic and cross-border routes.

"The other guys have 20-odd flights a day from Vancouver to Toronto and we've got four or five," he said. "There's plenty of opportunity to add additional flights as we get new aircraft."

He said the company has a list of cross-border destinations it intends to fly to, but would not provide details, citing competitive reasons.

[royalterrace]

yoohoo

You make some good points but I think you are failing to recognise that there are different strokes for...

I did the overseas thing also with better T&C's than what you mentioned , but I chose to come back. Never thought that I would agree with that old saying that there's more to life than money! My overseas road trip was an eye opener too and I am grateful for the experience but living away from home grew tiresome for me.

The old koolaid comment. Sure , some WestJetter's can come off as somewhat annoying but I think we have a right to be pretty damn proud of our airline and what we have done over the last 10 years. Think about it. From 0 to 60 brand new 737NG's , brand new hanger and office's , ground equip. , etc and about 250M in the bank to boot. No one has ever challenged AC and been as successful at it as we have. No one. You are right , we are No2 and aspire to be No1. Nothing wrong with a dream and trying to attain it is there?

I'm not even going to go there re:low pay. Everyone at WJ knows what has happened in the past and are hopeful that it will continue in the future. Enjoy that Porsche. I have one and am considering another. They are a fine automobile. If you are in Europe make sure you go to Stuttgart. Well worth the trip.

[yoohoo748]

Royalterrace

You hit the nail on the head... you are too right. Different strokes for different folks. I do hope that things continue to work out for you and my friends at WJ, as I also hope the my ventures keep working out here.

Cheers.

[Slapshot]

"Slapshot; far too much cool-aid for you. Same for WJman (nothing personal guys… I am sure that you guys would be good guys to go for a pint with) I don’t know what carrier that you worked for overseas but if it didn’t work out for you that is too bad. Working overseas can really open ones eyes to the rest of the world. I have only been overseas for a short period and I am already looking to get my first Porsche (could never dream of that in Canada…"

I don't think I've had too much kool-aid. Just the right amount of respect from the people who employ me... As for where I worked oversea's, I spent 4 years in Hong Kong. 4 years with guys from all over the world. I learned a lot about the way other parts of the world operate and how different it is to work in North America. A Wife and a family will make one appreciate the way things work in North America. Lifestyle and the ability to build a schedule to adapt to the lifestyle one desires...

"... but also lifestyle and pay. To think that WJ can hold a candle to what A/C can offer us is silly. Absurd. I know that all (most?) people at westjet think that they are at the top of the heap, and that is the culture. That is ok... but one has to realize that while they may be number one in a few areas, they really are number two wanting to be number one."

We have been around for 9 soon to be 10 years (Feb. 28 2006). In that time we've made some extraordinary strides. We now fly to more destinations outside of Canada than inside. We have the youngest fleet in the country. We are using the technology to it's fullest. I could go on but you get my gist... We are a progressive, expanding company that is giving the "Traditional" Airlines a run for their money. I think we are winning. The public seems to think so too... Do we have a way to go? Sure, but that's part of the expansion and the wave forward isn't it? People getting on now get to ride that wave.

"We have put too much blood and sweat into this to be paid peanuts. For the responsibility and hard work we all need to be remunerated accordingly."

I agree with you on this point. What I disagree with is your assertion that WestJet is some kind of cheapskate outfit that does not pay. We have some non "traditional" salaries. I'll trade T-4's with anyone who's been in their company the same amount of time that I have. I'll also compare lifestyle. In that dept. I think I'll come out ahead... I've got a good gig, lot's of time off and the spare dosh to get the "toys" that make the time off worthwhile. I also enjoy the airplane I fly, the destinations I fly too and most importantly, the people I fly with. I've no real complaints. Life is good here in Canada, don't kid yourself that it's headed for the toilet...

"A colleague of mine who is close to retiring said that if you are able to get a seat at a legacy carrier, get it, then never let it go."

"Never let it go" would be a neat trick with the bankruptcy's, layoff's and salary rollbacks that have been commonplace in the "Legacy" world... Just ask a United Pilot how his Pension is doing... Or how the Delta Pilot is doing with his Aircraft bid... Before you mention the Asian carrier's - how many pay-scales does Cathay have these days? What are the difference's from one scale to the next? How have changes to the Conditions of Service at Emirates been received?

"But A/C is the proven and they are looking (last I heard, but I am out of the loop)."

Ask an Air Canada Pilot what his salary has done in the last negotiations. Ask what "just about" happened to his Pension... There is still the Pension shortfall to be funded...

"Some can’t hack it and put the blame on ‘the high cost of living overseas’. What they forget is with this higher cost comes a larger disposable income and better lifestyle."

I would argue the "larger disposable income"... With a larger salary come larger demands. What looked like a great salary on paper in Canada, turned out to be a working wage with some saving's once I arrived in Hong Kong. When little mouths came along and their schooling had to be taken care of, the "saving's" portion dwindled considerably... A single guy with his or her eye on an adventure will find it a great experience oversea's, but I would suggest going over with eyes open...

"WJ might be able to provide a ‘decent’ living, and stock options might be working out for some; but there is nothing better than seeing my paycheck with no deductions. None. Two months holidays a year? To start? And making the equivalent of 160k CAD to start?"

I too had a wack of holiday's to start at the outfit I was at, and thought that was pretty good... Until I realized that I was still working 80 hours in the month that I had the leave... It wasn't really "leave" it was an "optimized" schedule so that I had maximum days off for that month. They still got their pound of flesh out of me to the tune of 80 hours and I had the two weeks off for the month. Then on occasion I got the phone call, "So sorry, F/O _____, your leave has been canceled you are required to operate ____. " It goes back to scheduling and lifestyle. My days off and my family are important, I'm not in "indentured servitude" wearing the "golden handcuff's" to a scheduling dept. that has no concept of a life outside the "Company"...

I'm glad you're happy and enjoying your adventure oversea's. I'd be curious what the "power's that be" would do if they found your "Gentleman Jack"... Contraband and a Judge sound like a distinct possibility...

I know many who are happy in the desert. I also know many who wish to be home. Some have left here and yearn to come back. Contracts and debentures force them to stay. Others think it is the lesser of two evils.

I guess that's why they make Chocolate and Vanilla eh? So everybody has a choice. Good night and good luck to you.

Merry Christmas!

[Tan]

Wow that’s the longest WJ kool-aid fairy tale that I’ve seen so far, regardless have a Merry Christmas.

[Slapshot]

What do you find so hard to believe? If you have some facts to dispute my position I'd be happy to debate you.

[yoohoo748]

Yip Slapshot, you are right. Chocolate and Vanilla. I don't really mean to Bash WJ (although it did seem like I was... and to tell the truth maybe I was in a round-about sort of way) but I do want to let the new guys on the block that there is a world out there ready and waiting to be explored. It may not work out for everybody, but it does seem to be working out well for me and the buds. I really don't see myself returning to work in canada any time soon. I am LUCKY that my wife is able to work here in the ME... Gets her out of the house.... and out of the mall. Life here is good. More open and accepting than I could ever have imagined. Pass a cop and not have to worry about paying a fine. Have a pint when ever you feel like it. Give a guy a buck or two and he/she will clean you house or car or get your groceries for you.

I worry about the future of aviation. Wages have really taken a dive in the past 15 or so years. While doctors and lawyers remuneration has climbed, ours have fallen. How can we change this? I don't have the answer, but as a group it is our best interest to find a way. Slapshot... Good for you for doing so well where you are.

Cow town is a decent enough place, and weekend at Fernie is not that bad of a treck. Still, the taxes in canada are a killer. I wouldn't mind so much if the Canadian government were responsible with the dough that we give them every day... but they just seem to squander OUR money. Could I do any better? Probably not. Again, there are far too many 'special interest groups' in canada that demand far too much cash; That must be put in check before the money runs out. K guys, time to eat. Take what I say with a grain of salt. I might have my opinion, but that is not to say that I know what I am talking about. :)

[FFP]

Would anyone be kind enough to explain how the taxes affect you in your currrent flying jobs ? In the UK I'm taxed 40% on anything over £30 odd grand. Is it similar ?

[Slapshot]

"Still, the taxes in canada are a killer. I wouldn't mind so much if the Canadian government were responsible with the dough that we give them every day... but they just seem to squander OUR money."

You'll get no argument from me on that one... It seems you and I agree more than not. ;)

"I do want to let the new guys on the block that there is a world out there ready and waiting to be explored. It may not work out for everybody, but it does seem to be working out well for me and the buds."

I felt the same way when I first arrived in Hongker's in the mid '90's. I was telling everybody how great it was and asking why they weren't over there with me. After a few years, it started to wear me down, after 4 I had had enough.

Good luck to you, Merry Christmas!

[Azzurri]

Attn: yoohoo748,

By chance are you in Abu Dhabi or Bahrain?...

Azzurri

[yoohoo748]

Azzurri,

Yes... |Chances are really good that I am in Bahrain. You?

[Saltaire]

If you're stoked about BAH, then Dubai must be a real haven with all the enhanced facilities.

[yoohoo748]

Yeah... Dub is pretty cool, for me not a bad place to visit. BAH is doing well for me. Looking to spend a few days in MCT too, beautiful place if you like the out doors. ME's secret and up and coming.

[Azzurri]

Yoohoo748,
Did you used to have a bike with a fouled-up second gear?
Azzurri