Has Ryanair been hacked?

[HugMonster]

Or is this a joke? Or for real? £50 for the privilege of applying to them? :eek: :rolleyes: :confused: :mad:

New Ryanair Recruitment methods (http://www.ryanair.com/intropilot.html)
For general information regarding Ryanair please see our main web-site.

As of 19th October 2001 our existing pilot recruitment database will be deleted and applicants are invited to submit a new on-line application via our web-site. All applications to this new database must include a £50 Sterling processing fee. Only those applications which include this fee will be accepted. No other applications will be accepted apart from on-line version, dont ring, don't fax, don't post, don't drop-off, this is the only way an application will be processed. You will be required to submit your credit card details * via the on-line application form and your application will then be considered for our ongoing recruitment needs. No other form of payment apart from credit card will be accepted, no cheques, no cash, no bank drafts. Your application will remain on our database for a period of one year.

* Please be advised that the Ryanair on-line pilot application form is not a secure data line at present

Our minimum criteria for submitting applications is as follows;

European or JAA Licence
Eligibility to work in the EU
A minimum of 300 hours total fixed-wing time
Multi-engine Instrument Rating
If you do not meet these criteria, then please do not apply, you will only be wasting your time and money.

Our selection process involves a review of applications received via our on-line database followed by an interview and Simulator Assessment. There will be a processing fee for both interview and simulator assessment of STG£50 and STG£150 respectively. It is our intention to acknowledge all qualified applicants (providing the processing fee has been paid) within 5 working days of receipt.
Please do not call, phone, fax, drop in, or e-mail the Human Resources Department directly as this will impede our ability to process all applications we have received to date. By submitting your on-line application you will have done your part, it's up to us then. Any information you may require regarding the recruitment / selection process will be contained within this introduction section which is updated on a regular basis.

GENERAL INFORMATION

Fleet

We currently operate a fleet of 21 Boeing 737-200's and 15 Boeing 737-800's. We will be adding an additional 8 Boeing 737-800's before Spring 2002. At that point we will have taken delivery of 23 of our 28 confirmed orders for Boeing 737-800's. We have also recently placed an advert in Flight International for 50 second hand Boeing 737's to meet our fleet needs as we continue to expand.

Career Progression

At a time when many airlines in Europe are reducing fleet sizes and crew numbers Ryanair are continuing to grow with the addition of a minimum of five new aircraft per annum we will be recruiting approximately forty pilots per annum. This unrivalled growth will create plenty of command opportunities so if you have the ability and you are willing to work hard and be flexible, there is no better airline to join than Ryanair.


Frequently Asked Questions

Q. Are Ryanair recruiting non type-rated pilots ?

A. We anticipate recruiting both Boeing 737 rated and non Boeing 737 rated pilots. Those pilots who are not type rated will initially be required to complete a Ryanair Boeing 737 type-rating Full Conversion Course, at a cost to the applicants of STG£15,000, and subsequently be hired as rated pilots.

Q. What criteria do I need to meet before I submit an on-line application form to Ryanair ?

A. Generally speaking we would only consider a pilot who meets the following criteria;
a minimum of 300 hours total fixed-wing time
European or JAA Licence
Multi-engine Instrument Rating
the unrestricted right to work anywhere within the EU


Q. Can I apply to Ryanair in a format other than the on-line application form ?

A. NO. We will no longer be accepting hard copy Curriculum Vitaes by post, fax, or hand. Only those on-line applications which include credit card details to apply the processing fee will be accepted.

Q. If I submitted an on-line application form previously will I be required to apply on-line again ?

A. YES. The existing Ryanair pilot recruitment database will be deleted effective 1st November 2001 and only those applicants on the new database will be considered for recruitment. There will be no exceptions.

Q. Do I need to regularly update my application ?

A. That's up to you. Only if your situation has changed significantly i.e. you now possess an additional type-rating, your total time has changed significantly, you have completed a Multi Crew Conversion Course etc. Submitting multiple applications will involve multiple processing fees so obviously chose carefully the timing of your application.

Q. What bases are Ryanair recruiting for ?

A. We have positions available in our bases in Stansted, Luton, Prestwick, Charleroi, Dublin and Shannon. We will also be opening a new base in the Spring of 2002.

Q. I don't possess the right to work in the EU, would Ryanair apply for a visa on my behalf ?

A. No. You will be wasting your time and money applying if you do not have unrestricted ability to work anywhere within the EU.

Q. Do I need to follow up my on-line application with a phone call ?

A. Definitely not. You will receive an e-mail confirmation within 5 working days of submitting your application.


[ 21 October 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]

[maxalt]

HaHaHa...what'd I say!!?

Suckers!

:mad:

[Want To Fly]

If it is true I can´t believe it!!!!

[dv8]

Those pilots who are not type rated will initially be required to complete a Ryanair Boeing 737 type-rating Full Conversion Course, at a cost to the applicants of STG£15,000

Thats cost not bond

[2500]

I thought that such practices were illegal in the UK?? Anyone from BALPA or the IPA care to comment?

[timmcat]

..that is SO arrogant, no employer in any other circumstances would get away with such an attitude..

[Island Air]

2500, Ryanair are NOT an UK airline, and anyway, since when was it illegal for an employer to ask for a certain qualification before offering a job?

<Island Air, not 737 rated! :(

[skymarshal 1]

And this is from an Airline which had an aircraft impounded at MAN due non payment of landing fees about 2 years ago.

What desperate pilots would apply to join this outfit anyway?

[maxalt]

156 Aer Lingus ones maybe? :D

[YakYak]

Who f*cking cares!
Get a Life!
If YOU owned an airline that sold One Punt tickets, wouldn't YOU focus on all possible revenue streams?

Lets not be distracted kids.

[timmcat]

OK.. perhaps this is the sign of the times.. I'm a pure wannabee but presumably those of you who rely on the industry for your living may now have to fight for your jobs and those employers who choose to take that attitude will presumably get away with it if they so wish. Us mere SLF have relied on you in the past but you should not have to endure such arrogance in the wake of Sep 11th.

[Self Loading Freight]

What a lovely advert for the company.

Aside from anything else, that page requires you to submit your credit card details over a link advertised as insecure. A better advert to hackers, I'd be hard pressed to imagine. Does that mean RyanAir will take responsibility if your credit card number is subsequently stolen as a result?

R

[Bally Heck]

Having used Ryanair about ten times in the last two years, I consider them to be mediocre but cheap. Always like to support the up and coming underdog though.

Having read this application, I will never use them again.

Sorry to you guys and gals who work for them and the pubs in Dublin who will lose some custom. Someone has to have some sort of morals.

[HugMonster]

Just received this via email:- Unfortunatly its true, and rumour has it there is a different payscale if you dont have an unfrozen licence. so 50 for the app, 50 for the pleasure of interview, 150 for the sim, then 15000 for rating and if your not unfrozen a reduced salary. Makes me proud to hold an irish passport! not..

[The Guvnor]

Grow up, people - you want to fly for Southwest Airlines - the best employer in the United States according to numerous surveys?

Then go here. SWA Pilot Jobs (http://www.southwestairlines.com/careers/pilots.html) - and you'll see that not only is there an administration fee (in common with almost all SU airlines) for applications; but you're required to come with a 737 rating - or at the very least least be prepared to get it (at your expense) if you're selected.

Southwest Airlines requirement on the B-737 Type Rating: Although preferred, a candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process they have 6 months from that date to successfully complete a B-737 Type Rating course and obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.

I suspect that most, if not all, European airlines will be watching this with great interest and if it's successful will have no hesitation in pursuing a similar tack with their pilots. BA in particular has apparently been looking at this for some time.

I believe that this is the precursor to piloting becoming a true profession - in other words, one where there will be far greater movement of personnel, each of whom will be employed strictly on the basis of ratings already held. In the same way that in the IT market the onus is on the individual to ensure that s/he is trained (at their own expense) on whatever the most sought after process is - SAP, RSA or whatever - then so it will be the responsibility of the pilot to obtain new ratings.

I also foresee the abolition of the seniority system, which will assist in the freedom of movement - people will be employed for specific roles in specific types; and when that type is no longer used their services will no longer be required.

The upside is that airlines will be prepared to pay more money to compensate for this - and for the cost of the benefits (medical, insurance etc) which will then become the individual's, and not the company's, responsibility.

Interesting times ahead, people!

[Squawk 8888]

Makes sense, Guv. For too long it has been considered sacriligeous to question the supremacy of seniority in the workplace, but one has to remember that management derives all of the benefit (illusory IMHO) from such a system because restricting employee mobility ultimately depresses pay & benefits. We could well see more "free agent" arrangements for pilots but the airlines will have to get involved in financing the training (through loans or bonding) because the costs are prohitive for newbies; in IT it only takes a few thousand dollars to get qualified to earn a living and even then a lot of it is picked up by the employers.

As for the Ryanair and SW stunt I suspect it will be short-lived, since such barriers will ultimately lead to a pilot shortage as more wannabes decide to explore other career options. There may be plenty of operators stupid enough to try it but the law of averages dictates that there are still enough people in the industry with enough brains to recognize a non-starter when they see one.

[M.Mouse]

Needs must. I would never apply to them but then I have a job (at the moment). If I was out of work then I would probably cough up.

Many get into much debt for initial qualification. It is surely just an extension of that , more debt to land the job you want.

I can see major airlines charging a fee of some sort purely to weed out some of the many thousands of totally unsuitable applications that they must receive annually.

Sad but true!

[JiveBomber]

They might consider making these fees refundable to succesful applicants, if they are really just trying to weed out the totally unsuitable. However the whole thing is a total insult.It would be a better system than seniority, but I don't see any connection between the two, or how the Guvnor feels it will lead to the demise of seniority systems!

[Hamrah]

Guvnor,

Just so that we're comparing Apples with Apples. A 737 type rating can be bought in the USA for something in the region of $6000. There is no groundschool element, you are just sent the books and are expected to pass the exams on the first day of your groundschool.

These courses do not meet JAA approval standards.

H

[sabenapilot]

Hmmm???
Oh, I see...
Not surprisingly the above is comming for a guy with a level of education lower then a door step...

[DouglasDigby]

Can any FR pilot confirm the new policy, or, has anyone called their Head Office in DUB? I can't believe that they would set up an insecure payment route for a registration fee anyway. :confused:

[BBK]

The Guvnor

I don't agree that this is a precursor to pilot employment becoming a true profession - it already is! I worked for many years as an aerospace technical professional and not once did I ever hear of job applicants have to pay fee towards a prospective employer. These professional companies are more interested in getting the right calibre of individual than making a fast buck at the expense of those unfortunate enough to need a job. I doubt very much that BA would consider such a system for its Direct Entry programme althogh for the cadets perhaps?

I know that Ryanair are perfectly within their rights to use whatever sytem of recruitment they wish, however, in the eyes of the pilot community I think this will just take them even further down in peoples' estimation.

BBK

[The Guvnor]

Hamrah - how much is the cost of a JAA B737 type rating? Is £15k about right - or is that way over the top? I hear from a friend that works for FR that the way they do it is set up a bank loan which is covered by the company as long as you're with them (seems to be a bit of a tax dodge from the way it was being described) - but if you leave then obviously the bank manager comes looking for you!

As I said previously, a lot of airlines in Europe are watching this with great interest. You'll know better than most, H, the high costs of recruitment and selection - and the number of CVs you have to plough through that are from 'chancers' that are patently unqualified for the job. This is simply a way of companies covering those costs and putting the onus on the individual to take a 'sniper' rather than 'shotgun' approach to seeking employment.

It couldn't be clearer:

If you do not meet these criteria, then please do not apply, you will only be wasting your time and money.

When it comes to paying people with FATPLs lower pay, this again is another practice that they seem to have picked up from Southwest. If you join WN, you have to have undergone a command course for the 737 - even if you're coming in as an FO. It gives them the operational flexibility which simply isn't there for someone that's not qualified - as in the case of an FATPL holder. Insurers don't like low timed pilots either, and employing them means potentially sharply increased insurance rates as well as the headache of always having to roster the most experienced pilots with them. In any case, the FATPL holder is getting a pretty good deal; after all, s/he's in the right hand seat of a B737 rather than instructing in C150s or doing air taxi work until they hit the magic 1,000 hrs with lots on multi-turbine!

[Gaza]

In the same way that in the IT market the onus is on the individual to ensure that s/he is trained (at their own expense) on whatever the most sought after process is - SAP, RSA or whatever - then so it will be the responsibility of the pilot to obtain new ratings.

Wrong! The IBM's, Compaq's and such likes of this World recruit graduates and people from other area's and then train them in specialisms. The vast majority who self fund are independant's who don't want to be tied to one employer.

The cost of achieving certification in SAP (or similar) is probably around 10% of the cost of obtaining an ATPL with Type rating. There is a good chance the IT starting salary will be more in to the bargain.

[tunturi]

Guvnor
I know you have your personal agenda on this particular theme but you surprise me with your naivety (again) on two points. As a businesman you are obviously aware that market forces; supply and demand; call it what you will dictate how successful such antics will be. Sadly at this time FR are taking full advantage of the current situation and unfortunately will have some success BUT only as long as the market remains depressed. It will recover and the "good" times will return. I have been in this industry 30 years and if I've learned anything it is the inevitablity of recurring cycles of ups and downs. The reasons may differ but the cycles will continue. Don't believe me? Well that takes me neatly to my second point of disappointment in you: short memory span. Just remind me and others how much Easyjet were charging for recruitment admin not so long ago......oh no they weren't charging, they were PAYING £30,000 golden hellos to some people. Market forces. ;)

[HugMonster]

Guv, the higher insurance rates and the rules about less-experienced pilots flying together only apply to the first 50 hours after final line check in any operation I've worked for. It also applies to any pilot joining, not low-houred as such.

As for the "sniper" versus the "shotgun" approach, it is simply not practicable for people to get themselves type rated for any company wo whom they wish to apply. If it's going to cost £15k to get any type rating - A320/B757/MD80/whatever, then not many people are going to bother to become pilots. There will then be a massive shortage and airlines will be offering other incentives, such as dropping their requirements. We will then be straight back to the "boom and bust" which does not assist either pilots or airlines. What next? Do we demand that all pilots have 1500 hours before they fly for anyone? Do they pay for that experience in a 737? There's a novel idea. Let's make the pilots pay to fly the aircraft, and let the passengers fly for only £1...

In this particular case, it is irrelevant what SouthWest do. This is not the practice in this country, or anywhere outside the USA that I am aware of. You want to employ people? To get the right ones is going to cost you money. Employers will have to get used to it, or, in your words, "grow up". It's not exactly difficult to skim through CVs quickly, and the ones that don't fit the bill hit the circular filing cabinet.

The arrogance and disdain this shows for potential staff is brathtaking. It does nothing for employer/employee relations. It merely advertises the fact that they care nothing for anyone. At the moment, with many pilots out of work, they can get away with it. When the shortage of flying jobs comes to an end, people will remember. And people will exact their toll for past treatment. Is this a good state of affairs for the industry? Very far from it. I don't know how you feel, but I believe in treating people as human beings, and having some respect and human empathy for them. It appears that RyanAir don't.

I suspect that Stelios is probably rubbing his hands with glee. On present going, nobody will apply to RyanAir, with or without a type rating if there's an alternative. There are plenty of 737 operators out there, and just as (un)likely to be recruiting as FR. easyJet will get all the applications, and RyanAir none. I forecast this will be a short-term (failed) experiment.

[Tug]

Done this one before, but I'll do it again.

New guys sarting salary: £6,500. per YEAR
Add sector cheque, nicely reduced by 50%, gives a return of @ £1,500 total monthly pay.
And that will be after a good month, flying max hrs on long trips. Go sick (if you dare)or miss a few days/weeks due excess hrs, then the return will drop by a few hundred. Maybe just about cover the £15 grand outlay.
Providing of course that you are indeed earning sterling, cos if you go across to Belgium or Ireland then it will be significantly less.

Rostering headache? Belgium has brand new Captains with brand brand new FOs.

On the flip side though, not many outfits are taking low hour guys, so those who have the extra ££££ on top of the £50 grand or so they have already spent can get a go. Hope they don't get chopped. Sincerely.

I'm not anti Ryanair, it's a fun place to work and the rewards are good, but not so good for the new guys, especially once the novelty of flying a jet for fun has worn off.

[sabenapilot]

A type rating B737 can easily be done for well under £15,000 on condition you do the training as a crew iso on an individual basis!
At most airlines they team new F/O-trainees up with their Captain-trainees, resulting is a much more efficient and quicker training.
As far as I know the Ryanair system, they simply can not do this, since only their F/O's need the type rating course (the captains joining Ryanair all bically have their typerating from a previous company).
This unnatural flying environment results in an unnecessary slower, longer and thus much more expensive training for the F/O trainees.
How much longer depends of course on the individual capacities of the trainee, but as a guideline I can tell you this:
Occasionally it happens that airlines like LH, AF, SN, etc. put 2 F/O's together for their initial training, but then it is standard practice to include at least 3 additional sim sessions. If you know a normal training can be completed in around 10 sessions, then these 3 extra represent 30% extra time,thus also cost!
If Ryanair charges you 15,000£ it's a real rip off; it can be done for as low 10,000£!

[mjenkinsblackdog]

As usual Guvnor your making a fool of yourself.This method of recruitment is due to supply and demand.
Wait 3 years and see the turnaround. :cool:

[Bally Heck]

I don't think this is a question of supply and demand. I think it is a question of ryanair profiteering from the deaths of 6000 plus people and the subsequent downturn in the airline industry. I thought it was bad when some companies used it as an excuse for a staff clear out, but this is beyond the pale. Particularly for a company which claims to be unaffected by the current crisis.

[Guvnor]

No matter what you put in your recruitment advertisement - 4 out of 5 replies do not have the qualifications listed. There were some 24,000 responses to BA campaign of a few years ago - and they had to employ people (I was one of them) to sort out the 20,000 wannabees who were just "having a go".

I can understand FR's £50 fee.

[dv8]

I hear from a friend that works for FR that the way they do it is set up a bank loan

Guv Can you get your friend at FR to go on the record and clarify the £15K cost/loan/bond. I would talk to FR directly however from the web message that's a no-no

[ 22 October 2001: Message edited by: dv8 ]

[sky9]

Wanted: Kebabs, bring your own stick

And this is the company whose pilots rejected BALPA. It would appear that they are not only applying to be "Kebabed" but paying for the stick as well. :rolleyes:

I would have thought that the recent PPrune history of MOL would make this outfit one to avoid, both as a pilot and as a passenger.

[flypastpastfast]

Hard to believe!

I can't think of any other profession like this where you pay for all training, qualifications etc.. and then you pay (Via an insecure server)for the right to apply to an outfit like Ryanair.

No wonder it only costs a pound.

Incidentally, as applicants are advised of the lack of security, I reckon no credit card company would help if your card details were stolen and used fraudulently.

I just cannot believe this is true!

[MissChief]

Just pax with Ryanair and you can believe anything...the lousiest carrier in Western Europe, in terms of almost anything.

[thedude]

£50.00 for the privilage of having them store your cv on file. It's just the start.
For those low cost operators, who take every opportunity to remind us of the fantastic USA airline model's to which they aspire,
I wait for the day when we see the following recruitment advertisement:-

737 flight time: only £60.00 per hour.

Wanted; 737 first officers
Offering Airline experience, two crew coordination training and 737 flight time whilst operating as uniformed scheduled airline crew.

Submit your c.v. with enclosed £50.00 payment to .......

And yes, for those with short memories, this has been done on numerous occasions, within the U.S. during the last recession. There are always those willing to pay for the flight time. I'm just suprised that the likes of Ryan and Easy haven't suggested it already! :cool:

[birdsong]

50£ :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Squawk 8888]

Hmmm... sounds like Ryanair have the same mindset as Air Transat. Perhaps they should merge- they could do all their recruiting at gliding clubs :D

[Pete Otube]

Well Dude - if they weren't before - they will after reading your post!

[Avenger]

Humm....

15K for a JAA approved 737 rating is cheap! easyJet pay more than that!

GUV.. This business of the bank loan sounds like an old Brymon proposal where the loan was in the individuals' name but the payments were covered by the company whilst you remained there. There was insurance incase the company went tits up to cover the balance. If you left, then the individual carried the can for the balance of the loan. No different than a reducing bond apart from you can't walk away so easily.
Maybe the £50 application fee and £150 sim check should be refunded if you are taken on...
Are they dealing with this in house one asks?
Couldn't the SUN just sponser another G-TITS and pay for the cost.
:cool:

[NextLeftAndCallGround]

I'm not a pilot (only a simple controller) but many of the issues raised in this thread apply to the ATC world also.

Here in the UK if you are not 'lucky' enough to be sponsored by NATS you'll probably have to pay for the college courses yourself and then find somewhere to do the practical training.

In times of controller shortage you'll see training schemes advertised. At other times, some airports (normally the same ones) will seek to profiteer from those starting out in their career (perhaps by charging trainees for practical training).

What is really disappointing is that the people who benefitted from the kindness and assistance from others early in their careers and now have risen to the dizzy heights of manager etc. are often those most likely to take advantage of the current youngsters.

Is it the same on the flying side??????? :confused:

[Flybob]

Jesus Guvnor. you really do excell at being a nobend.
Get a life, then take some where else.

And to any airline that wishes to exploit a terrible situation overall in aviation by requesting monies for applications, note a recent change in policy due to amount of pilots on market, and monies for interview and bonding and/or security for a type rating. I say gitferked.
I am willing to be bonded for monies payed on my behalf by ANY company for my type rating/s. But anything more than this is surely exploitation. ESPECIALLY as this has changed in light of Sept 11th.

And Gov if you mention supply and demand I am going to come up to your trailer park on the perimeter road and kick your wannabe CEO, ATPL, ENGINEER, FINACIAL DIRECTORS ARSE.

[Flybob]

One other point in ref to page one. In the US you do not need a full type rating / command rating to sit in the right seat. A commercial multi will do. However some airlines do require that you do the full left seat FAA ATPL check out, and again some pay for this and some dont.Either way it is a "much" cheaper alternative than a EU equivilent. But I think you have to be very careful drawing comparisons between European training costs and comparisons with US. This however is not to say one is better that the other.

Hey Gov did BA turn down your Nigerian PPL???
Guess so.

[Dockjock]

In the USA, there are many airlines in Florida in which the F/O is paying for the priviledge of sitting there. Just read the ads in FLYING magazine.

Stupid system, and stupid people who think it is a valid way of building a worthwhile career.

[Tosh McCaber]

Thank God they don't have Concord on their fleet. How much would they charge for that??

Taking their logic a little further, wouldn't every pilot in every airline have to pay for the "privelage" of moving from one type to another?

[ 22 October 2001: Message edited by: Tosh McCaber ]

[HugMonster]

I know of a former Flight Operations Director who was interviewing a would-be F/O. During the course of the interview, this guy told the FOD that he was willing to fly for nothing, just for the experience and the type rating.

The said FOD stood up, picked up the guy's CV, ripped it up, and let him know in no uncertain terms that people like him would not get a job if he was the last pilot around, and warned him never, ever again to threaten to steal the jobs of other pilots.

[Guvnor]

Hugmonster - that's a silly fairy story.

------------------------
Now what am I doing?!?

[xsimba]

Well I'm about to be made redundant by Virgin and had already filled out Ryanair's online application form.

If they now expect me to cough up £50 they can ram it. There is a glut of well qualified and experienced pilots coming on to the market and I can't believe that any of them will end up at Ryanair. If this is how they treat you when they are trying to entice you to work for them, what will they be like when you're actually in? (I think we already know the answer to that).

There are plenty of jobs still available, easyJet comes to mind, and I'm certainly not that desperate or stupid to take part in this cynical exercise.

I expect that Ryanair are going to miss an opportunity to get hold of some quality operators.

[Bill prasifka]

With that attitude quality operators are going to miss out on a the opportunity of a well paid job with an airline that can offer something that (almost) everyone else can't -job security

[Guvnor]

We don't want "Quality" operators - just qualified and safe pilots who try and keep to schedule - no more, no less.

So-called "Quality" operators tend to be prima donnas who make constant unreasonable demands while thinking that they are the most important employees in the company.

No thanks - just give us competent pilots, of the non-whingeing variety.

-------------

NOW what am I doing?!?

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Guvnor ]

[THE GUVN0R]

I mean, come on, really - who actually needs pilots? That's why I am cultivating my ever increasing number of identities. In fact, I am currently negotiating with Delta to buy 44 old personalities that they no longer require. Then I will be able to fly ALL my planes on my own with no interference from you upsetting and ungrateful pilots. :confused: :p :rolleyes: :mad: :eek: ;) :o :D

[dv8]

Info from FR
The £15K is not a bond you are paying for the B737 type up front you will not be given a job offer until the course is completed and passed.

[thegirth]

At last! I know have faith in the BA recruitment process!

Guv didn't make it. That makes 3500 people very happy now they are guaranteed not to have to share a flight deck for 12 hrs and more time down route listening to his garbage.

However, if he got a real job, then maybe he would spend less time in this forum boring the rest of us? So go on Guv, splash out the 50 quid yourself and give us all a break!

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: thegirth ]

[The Guvnor]

:eek: :eek: Neither of the previous IDs have anything to do with me! :eek: :eek: Check the name more carefully in future - and the number of posts! :D :D

[THE GUVN0R]

Your multiple identities have everything to do with you, and you, and you as well! :D :D :D

[Vref +50]

Ryanair pay a higher wage than BA. Oh yes they do.

Pre Sept 11th their type rating bond was no more than anyone elses. Their pay was at least 8% above Easy for the SAME hours averaged.

Factor in a share bonus and you are already beatiing those poor CEP or DEP salaries that BA offer.

Now apply a command in 3 - 4 years compared ot the Charters or BA 8 - 9 years and you find that for the average under 30 in the industry that Ryan were the best deal in town.

And don't use the old rubbish argument that they work you to death. Ryan work 5 on 3 off 900hrs a year max. Fixed 11 months+ in advance.

PLUS no Ryan pilot has - or will have - reason to worry about their mortgage in the past few weeks. Something hard to quantify...

I don't work for Ryan. I don't work for BA.

If I had to choose between them I, as a youngster, would be mad to choose BA over Ryan...

Things change,

VREF

[Steepclimb]

I'm in two minds about this, one the one hand there is the considerable irritation of being asked to pay in order to apply for a job. In fact I could be wrong but it may in fact be illegal within the EU to be asked to pay to apply for a job.

On the other hand, when I apply to Ryanair, I will be quite serious about it, £50 is neither here nor there. I'm quite sure they like most companies get stacks of mail from wannabe's, dreamers schoolboys and girls and assorted time wasters. I've seen it myself. All this costs money to process. This cuts through the BS.

But I'm not comfortable with it. It smacks of arrogance and profiteering. If I was a Captain with multi thousand hours, the sort of pilot all airlines slaver over. I would tell them to **** themselves. I think it may backfire on them somehow.

Frankly their record is not good in their treatment of prospective employees. I was interviewed for a ground job some time ago. To this day, I have yet to receive to courtesy of a reply, negative or positive. Even a phone call elicited a vague response.
I don't mind not receiving a response from a CV but an interview? A positive one at that.
Strange, very strange.

[thegirth]

Sent Mr Dooney an email expressing my thoughts on the issue...

"you're taking the p*ss, profiteering, how's your leader gonna spin this one on Sky News?" etc.

Anyone in the Press care to pursue a REAL human issue? You could make a name for yourself............

[airbourne]

Its always nice to sit and read what people have to say about Ryanair. Firstly Ryanair have been and will continue to extract money from any source. Take an example of a recently laid off pilot with a wife, couple of kids and a hefty mortgage. If he had the chance to join Ryanair, youre damn sure he'ed fork out £50stg (£50stg for an Irish company works out at £62.50IR) for the chance of getting another job in order to pay his debts.

At the end of the day, this is Ryanair getting more free press, no matter how good or bad. Everyone here is talking about it, and I'd say for every 3 people giving out about it, 1 has already applied with their £50! Either way MOL and his fellow directors will get a nice bonus when the profits go up at the end of the year.

Ryanair is a cheap airline for the first few seats after that, add it up! You could go cheaper in Aer Lingus premier after Ryanair add in the charges for airport taxes, credit card fees, excess baggage fees, train tickets, bus tickets, drinks and sandwiches on board, and anything else they can think of before you get off the a/c.

As much as you and I may hate, Ryanair will continue to exploit those on the outside of the loop, frankly theres nothing we can do about it!

[Bill prasifka]

Premier with EI cheaper than FR?

Get a grip

[VBO]

What??????????????????
£50 for your own resume send by e-mail? Applying for a job is more expensive than flying with them!(which they are getting sponsored for..)Next thing they might do is charge the Cpt for any extra fuel burn more than the flight plan fuel! Beancounter O'Leary will go down in history as the Ultimate Scrooge of 21st century airlines! Oh Molière, rien a changer!! :mad:

[Bill prasifka]

If it bothers you that much then dont apply. I'm sure there's plenty out there that will. O'Leary may be a 'beancounter' but one thing you can never accuse him of being is stupid. FR are offering an excellent package by industry standards (with the added incentive of job security) £50 is not that much to someone who has spent most of their adult life and a small fortune trying to get into their dream career.
I thank god I'm not in a position to need to apply but there are plenty of people out there that will be grateful for the opportunity

[Suggs]

Pilot Wanted

Please write a blank cheque made payable to Suggs for the following expesnses,

£4,000 PPL (taster)
£50,000 Training Course
£5,000 Accomodation + living expenses
£5,000 MCC Course
£15,000 Type Course
£150 Interview
£50 CV


£***** Cost of lost income

P.S. No garenntee of a job at the end.

Absolutely bloody crazy!

[airbourne]

Bill

Read the first post, it want meant to be taken literally, but its near enough right

Suggs

I wrote my cheque, but see ing as though you didnt give an address, I gave the money to my old mother. ;)

[Celtic Emerald]

He's a cute hoor that MOL if ever there was one & from what I hear recently from a number of people who've met him he's even cheesier in real life. The shoes on the other foot now lads and MOLs no eejit, he knows it & he intends like the go getter businessman with the colourful language that he is to milk the situation for what's it worth. Fraid he's pulling the strings so you'se are going to have to play by his tough cookie rules whether you like them or not. Ce la vie!

Emerald

[maxalt]

Celtic Emerald I believe the IT business is doing very badly in Ireland. Lot's of workers becoming unemployed. Are you at risk of losing your job? I really hope not. But if you do...well...c'est la vie. :p

[Celtic Emerald]

& I luv you too Maxalt baby xxx :)

Emerald

[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: Celtic Emerald ]

[A/c Slave]

Very well put 'Vref+50 and Bill.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to apply if you think it's a ripoff etc,'DON'T!'
O leary or no one is asking or begging you to join them, there are loads of people without jobs that will be happy to have a job with one of the most profitable and secure companies around!
After all it is a buisness they are running not a charity.........

And again, those of you that feel the passion to attack 'the guv' for his contributions instead of coming up with something worthwhile to add to the debate, you are the ones that need a life!


Have a nice day! ;)

[Lou Scannon]

At the moment this wretched little man has you over a barrel, so pay him his £50 and smile.
If you get a job you will have unlimited opportunities to get your own back over the next thirty years.
If you don't get a job with him you will get one somewhere else and then you will have unlimited opportunities to get your own back over the next thirty years.

Aviation has always been a small community with a long memory. What goes around comes around folks!
:(

[PPlum]

I got this 'send us 50 quid or sod off' message from the Ryanair postmaster as well, and almost fell over in disbelief. How would they expect applicants who are applying to even a small a number of different organisations to feel happy about paying for EACH???? I don't very often post on PPrune, but I did want to check the chat carefully to ensure that this wasn't a hoax. I think it's quite outrageous (as far as I know this practice would be totally illegal if they were based in the UK).

So, instead I went to yahoo.com and just typed in 'flight crew jobs'...

I'm still aghast at the arrogance of Ryanair, and it would be natural justice if nobody paid up, but as has been said, it may be a sign of the times.

[PaulDeGearup]

We all have a choice; pay the money or not.

I enquired of the Employment Service whether the £50, and all the others, was a legitimate expense which they would pay for those in search of gainful emlpoyment. The answer was a profound NO !

If you elect to pay the man his pound of flesh that is your choice, however, if there is one single thing we need right now more than anything it is unity; those folks with jobs should be helping those without jobs and if MOL and his admin staff think it's a good idea to stiff people for money when times are bad.......well, why dont we all simply not bother applying and send the Cvs to Stelios instead ?

When MOL has airplanes he cant crew he'll change his mind.

If you run with him you do nothing more than f**k it up for yourself and everyone else.

Those who say pay the money and get a secure job ? Get a life;nothing in aviation is secure.

[The Guvnor]

As I said before, the £50 charge is really just there to make people think twice (or more) before applying and to avoid all of those 'chancer' CVs every airline is inundated with. I'd do the same if I was in his shoes. It means that pretty much every person that's applying is properly qualified and is confident that they would be able to do the job if they get it.

Sure, it will put some people off. But so what? He only needs what, four or at the most five crews for each aircraft, so it's not as if we're talking thousands of pilots required - and given the current market situation I am sure that there will be plenty of suitably qualified applicants.

Given the choice between sitting at home on the rock and roll or paying a few quid and flying again, I know what option I'd take! :D :D :D

[Di - Hedral]

Right then, whats this little bit of spare change in my back pocket?
Good old mummy and daddy won't mind if I spend a tad of pocket money.
Hmm... ten possible interviews and sim rides this year at £50 then £150 comes to about £2000... lets get the calculator out - maths was never my strong point. Oh good, that's just a tiny portion of what I've forked out so far, just need to cut back a bit on wifeys expenses and a few less nappies for kiddo there.

Guvnor - if you want 'prima donnas' this seems the way to find them, not what you suggest. Do you really believe that the best pilots are those with the most money to waste? That those more fortunate are BETTER than those who are not? What right thinking person just puts good money after bad into the claws of aviation scavengers/vultures?

One can comprehend the implications of the costs of going through the CVs of time-wasters, which is why the idea of £50 refunds for successful 'interviewees' would seem to be a good idea. Not too sure about the idea of the sim ride cost, perhaps refundable on accepting employment with the company. At least that way the company will not be financing the 'joy-riders' who go along for the sim ride and then turn down the employment opportunity.

Condoning the 'rights' of these money grabbing employers though is absolutely Draconian. Would you have it that the airlines are full of 'Nigels' (no offence meant to anyone of that name)? Would you go back to the days when the only way you could get a job as a shopgirl in Harrods would be to pay them for the privilege of working there? - Watch out boys, do you have your debutante dancing cards & wear only the best make-up!

Despite the fact that some people will pay their money in desperation, poor s*ds, I for one will NOT be amongst them. This can be done in a more correct manner, including the two suggestions above. This leads on to the idea of individual bank loans for the pilots type-rating. This is currently in practise and is fair. It makes absolutely no difference to the employee pilot so long as s/he doesn't leave the company before the loan is paid, because at that point the onus is on her/him to pay it. As I see it, it just proves that the employee shows some degree of integrity, and the employer does not have the hassle of chasing after someone to pay the remains of their decreasing bond.

Let us get some even ground between pilots and airlines. A bit of double-sided empathy,
instead of the current breeding ground of greed and resentment.

[Invalid Delete]

Greedy M-Fur's !!! :mad:

50 Quid for an ONLINE application !!
THAT is SERIOUSLY taking the **** . What, like it really costs 50 quid (per applicant) for a computer to do an automated search of its database ? :rolleyes:

All they gotta do is print out a list of suitable candidates and phone numbers. Probably that will take a maximum of one minute for the whole process !!!

150 Quid for a sim ride !! Why dont they charge you to park in their car park whilst you are at the interview too !!!

Just imagine if all airline employers started to do that. When I finished my frozen ATPL course I struggled to find the money for 150 stamps to post off applications.
I can't imagine how this must make new graduates of flying schools feel. 150 * 50 quid = 7.5k. Yeah, that is just a little extra on top of the 50k+ to get the basic training, right? no one would mind that surely ? :eek: Or would we just let Ryan charge ? It's the principal of it all too.

It wont filter out the unsuitable candidates either. They will still "try it on". We all know that when employers get desperate they reduce the requirements.

PAY FOR YOUR OWN TYPE RATING (BEFORE EMPLOYMENT,TOO) ?
- NOW THAT HAS GOT TO BE A JOKE RIGHT ?

Last time I fly with that bunch of F-ing, cheap skate, theiving gypsy bastard dick-heads. Even if it cost 50p a ticket, I'd rather swim - Less sharks about too.

Except Perhaps imagine this scenario :
We all apply on line,
Pay the 50 quid,
Get the interview,
Check bags in at the Ryan desk,
Go to the bar,
Turn up at the gate at departure +10mins,
Board,
Get a panic attack and decide not to travel,
Get off, bag does also (20 minutes later - after it is found.)
Get on a later flight....Almost....

....Repeat as necessary.... until you have taken the **** out of them as much as you feel that they have taken the **** out of you...

...Arrive in Dublin.
Leave "dodgy looking package" outside Ryan head quarters as you enter the building.
Go to interview and just before you enter the room tell the receptionist that you saw someone leave a package outside and then you saw them drive off in a car.
Have interview.
Tell the guy doing the interview that you lied on your application form and that you love his tie.
Invoice him for your time at the interview and your costs incurred in completing the on-line application, along with an invoice for your suit, shirt, tie, shoes, lunch, and bar bill.
Leave room at some point (possibly soon after entering )
On way out, go to top floor toilet,
Put all plugs in plug holes, turn on taps,
Fly Home.

Now perhaps that would be 50 quid well spent, after all. :D

When someone says Ryanair to me now I will think of something that starts with "C" and rhymes with PUNTS !!!

[Di - Hedral]

Looks like Invalid Delete is going to be one of the first to literally 'pull the plug' on RyanAir and 'dampen' their spirits. :D :D :D

:rolleyes: But have you got the message yet Guvnor and other RyanAir sympathisers? :rolleyes:

How long will it take, do you think, for the jokes to become actively practised resentment from a group of disrespected professionals?
:( (ref bottom page 5)

[calluback]

How soon before the rated B737 or pilots with £15K spare will dry up? Has MOL given any thought on how to keep them from walking with no bond to hold them back
:mad:

[PercyDragon]

Interesting, this matter of the airline demanding money up front for the privelige of working for them. But this sort of practice is actually very common in the business world. Usually its called 'buying a franchise'. For instance, if you were now qualified to sell financial services products (having passed all the necessary exams, etc) and applied to Zurich for a job, they will actually charge you £2,500 (the last figure I heard) to do the Franchisee induction course.
Looking back through history, too, one could buy a commission in the regiment of your choice. This would then entitle you to do the job, wear the uniform, and also get paid etc.
However, having stumped up with the cash to buy the position then you should be actually entitled TO SELL THE JOB ON (AT THE GOING MARKET RATE) to anyone who might be interested later.

[AJ]

I think this might also have something to do with trying to make as much money as possible other than from charging pax fares.

The more revenue they can generate from other sources, the easier it is for the airline to maintain low airfares, and thus maintain loyalty from the punters.

You as pilots may find the practise disgusting, but it actually makes good business sense.

And despite many saying they won't now apply to Ryanair/fly Ryanair, the fact is there are many more that will, for many reasons, and the charges won't put them off.

That's the reality.

Regards

[Magnus Picus]

Invalid Delete - We shall have the last laugh.....

[HugMonster]

AJ, it doesn't make good business sense at all.

With the policies Ryanair have now adopted, they will end up with pilots (if they get any) who have no sense of loyalty at all. Since they have been taught that the general principle in Ryanair is "Shaft them before they shaft you", when the boot is on the other foot as sooner or later it will be, they will get their revenge. Far more sensible is to engender a sense of loyalty in your staff, and have them defend you to the last breath, and want to work for you whatever.

Furthermore, since they will not be bonded if they are having to pay for their ratings, and, a year or so down the line, with poor pay and conditions, but with a popular type rating and heading for 1000 hours jet time under their belt, they will be out of the door in seconds.

Recruitment costs money. Not just type training, but in using up valuable resources (training captains' time, sim time, difficulties with rostering if you have to pair an inexperienced pilot only with a senior one, etc. etc.

Lose an experienced, qualified pilot, and you have to pay just to replace him/her with an inexperienced one.

This does not make good business sense. Ryanair are storing up many many problems for themselves in the future for simply short-term gain and the pleasure of kicking their workforce simply because they can.