Whats going on at CATC [Archive]

Johnny5

28th Sep 2005, 10:46

Hi,

Just looking for advice, I have recently passed the selection for NATS, and am awaiting a start date for CATC.

I have heard however from a couple of people at CATC that the pass rate has fallen drastically, and that there are loads of people waiting for a training interview. Also that the college has a new policy of trying to get rid of as many trainees as possible as early as possible.

I really want to do this job, and will be giving up a reasonably well paid job to do it, as well as moving down my girlfriend with me. However i am getting a bit nervous about doing this only to be shown the door a few months after i start.

Can anyone clear up exactly whats going on as i may have to reconsider doing this for purely practical reasons.

Cheers in advance
Johnny

mickrobbo

28th Sep 2005, 12:50

Johnny5, a career in ATC imho is worth giving up any well paid job. The pass rate at CATC has fallen slightly over recent courses, but if you stick in, do the book work, and don't make a nuisance of yourself then you will be fine.

Throw caution to the wind and do it, you won't regret it.

Not sure this helps any but hey!

Johnny5

28th Sep 2005, 16:20

Thanks for your reply mickrobbo, and i agree with your comments however ive been told its more the practical aspect that people are being failed for and thats a worry, as ive heard the courses are also being made shorter, with less time to get to grips with it all.

My girlfriend is giving up a lot to come down with me, and it would put a lot of strain on our relationship if i were to put her through all this only to be chopped a short time later.

I really am confused as to what to do at the minute. Is there anyone else at the college who can clear up this issue for me, or is there anyone in the same position?

nnelgcta

28th Sep 2005, 16:45

Hi Johnny, I have just left NATS as i have had the rug pulled from under me too many times. I passed the old aerodrome courses, radar skills all first time but failed area 1 and was not given a re course. Had few other options but all stopped by someone. HR decide your fate and they have no clue of the job of atc and no interest in your personal sacrifices. The job itself is great but be aware that the failure rate is mega at the college and at area units and you might be one of the unlucky ones who now with the new courses get chopped with nothing. This is the reality and you should be aware of it for your sake and your Girlfriends. As i said the job is superb and i have met people who have become mates for life but lots of pitfalls too. Best of luck for whatever decision you make.

mickrobbo

28th Sep 2005, 17:21

Johnny5, I covered all bases, or at least attempted to when I joined NATS.
I didnt burn any bridges with my previous employer, my wife and I decided it would be better for me to go down to Bournemouth on my own until I had finished the course (fortunately I did aerodrome, so it was only 7mths). This can be very hard on both you and your partner, but we managed by me travelling home each weekend and my wife visited down in bournemouth.

This way if all went wrong I still had a base back home where I could find another job.

You need to, and obviously are, giving serious thought to this.

I hope it all works out for you.

Someone_Else

28th Sep 2005, 17:28

Hi Johnny,

I am currently in the college on the Area course.

All I can say is be prepared to work hard both on theory and the practical. It is achievable! You will have a lot to do in getting through the first course and then the work keeps on coming.

The Area course is changing so I can't comment on the work rate on that. If it is anything like it is now, the learning curve is very steep!

It does feel like you're are putting things on hold whilst working at the college, for me that is not a problem, but I am well aware of the strains it puts on some of my mates on the course. I'm afraid I can't offer any advice on that one; there are plenty people in the college that read here so I am sure you will get some more useful replies. I will point your post out to a couple of people who have brought their girlfriend/wife/children down here to see if they can offer any support.

Bottom line, it's worth it, speaking to ATCOs you realise how good the job is and it is worth the hard work to get to the point of obtaining that licence!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

aaaabbbbcccc1111

28th Sep 2005, 17:55

Hi Johnny,

I am on the Area course with someone else (the id above, not me and another person, things arent that bad).

I brought my wife and kids down with me, and like yourself, my wife left her job, kids changed school, money problems etc etc. I am glad I did, because it is hard work, and I dont think I could have coped travelling weekends, as this is time for me to revise, plus I can spend more time with the family during the week.

It never crossed my mind not to take the risk, because you got to be confident you will pass and not worry about the fact that there is a high failure rate. Believe me, the college is full of highs and lows, and having my family there seems to soften the lows.

Noone is guaranteed to pass these courses, if we could pass on effort alone, there would be no failures, but unfortunately its not like that. Just join with a lot of confidence, dont think about failures rates, and dont let bad times at the college get you down(something I have learnt)

Good luck, if you need any more advise just ask.

abc111

matt_pa31

1st Oct 2005, 22:46

What is the drop out rate at the college?

Inverted81

2nd Oct 2005, 08:49

Hi all,
To be honest there isn't really a "failure rate". Some courses go through without a hitch, others go through with the lows. I've stumbled my way through college passing things eventually, (practical wise) and am presently on the knife edge again. As aaabbbccc1111 said, its not about effort that can make you trip up. Sometimes there are many things that contribute to a non successfull outcome. There are many many views as to why this could be, however, i believe we all have to get on with what we have to, to get a chance to do this FANTASTIC job. I most certainly am not going to give up and i am doing everything possible to ensure that i am successfull in the end.
I moved down with my long term girlfriend. I was lucky in the fact that we had both left uni so had no real ties back home. I know a few people who leave family back at home, but if there is any way you can bring them down i would really look into it. Bournemouth is great and the surrounding areas are out of this world. So much so we're almost set on living down here for good if the commute will let me! Have a chat with everyone that the move will have an effect on.
My advice is "just do it!" (Nike: Greek god of victory) you will certainly not regret it, and there is no reason why you should fear becoming one of those bad statistics.
81

REVOLUTION

2nd Oct 2005, 12:26

When I look at the course I was on at the college, of the 30 who started, approx. 10 got through the college first time, another 10 using a recourse, 10 didn't make it. Of those 10 though probably 5 where offered jobs within NATS.

Pretty much everyone who got through the college went on to validate at a unit. Some units are harder to validate at than others normally if someone gets chopped they will then be sent somewhere less busy and are then normally successful.

Until you are a valid controller I would say don't buy a new car/house and leave your Mrs. where she is!

Spamcan defender

5th Oct 2005, 20:15

Hi Johnny, just to basically back-up everything that has been said I will add my own little piece :D .
Started at the college late '02. Gave up a decent job and moved to Bournemouth from Scotland. Left missus at home (which was hard!) and travelled back as often as I could. To be honest, I feel it was probably better for me to stay there myself as there were no distractions from the bookwork. This is really fundamental stuff and is hard enough without wife/girlfriend etc moaning that your not spending enough time with them.
The courses themselves were quite brainmashing to say the least. I did the old aerodrome courses which I passed first time along with radar skills. Managed to fail Area 1 by a whisker but thankfully passed it on the second attempt. Area 2 was dispatched, again, by the skin of my teeth :cool: . I was absolutely over-the-moon to say the least. Unfortunately many of the friends that I had made during my time at CATC fell by the wayside after being chopped. In my case, during the time at college I bought a house and a new car against my better judgement but the way I saw it at the time was that you just cant put your life on hold!!
At a unit now so things are looking up :ok: . However, THIS is the hard bit. Its what all the time at college was leading up to. College was difficult but I agree with the comment that if you apply yourself then theory stuff will not be too much of a problem. With the practicals, well.......you can either do it or you cant to be honest!.
Did hear that the pass rates for the new courses were less than encouraging but I also hear that they are being 'fine tuned'.
To summarise....Yes its a daunting thought leaving your present job for a 'chance' to become an ATCO; Yes its difficult being apart from loved ones; Yes you need to apply yourself and focus on the courses; yes theres a lot more of the same at the units but I wouldnt trade my job for all the tea in China!!!!
GO FOR IT MATE.......If (hopefully when) you make it then you'll be as happy as a pig in S**t; if you dont then at least you can hold your head up high and say you gave it your best.
Thats all people can ask of you and you of yourself (bit profound but true nontheless) :O

A I

6th Oct 2005, 06:37

Now Kevan Quinn has been moved to CASPIAN what do the people at CATC think? Has he had to fall on his sword because of bad results or are his particular skills needed at CTC?

A I

Bern Oulli

7th Oct 2005, 07:44

When did that happen? (Being a retired and out-of-touch instructor.)

Who is in charge now?

Edited to add a bit.

Scotslivedit

7th Oct 2005, 14:16

Johnny5, my advice to you would be to go for it with this in mind. If the worst happens and you end up failing once maybe twice and ending up in one maybe two Training Reviews, the following are sure fire ways of ensuring continued employment at the College:

1. Try to fail more than one course.

2. If your sim runs aren't going that well, run out mid-excercise crying.

3. Blame your instructor for number 2.

4. Try and turn your whole course against said instructor especially if he is a popular and well respected individual and do so in such a way as to guarantee you get a warning out of this.

5. If 3 and 4 don't work, blame the ATSA input and complain about them.

6. Try and turn your coursemates against each other and yourself. A good way to achieve this is to control in such a way as to directly affect your partner's sim run and then interupt their debrief to tell them what they are doing wrong.

7. Ask your instructors for an honest opinion of how you are progressing. Put in a complaint about them if they dare to suggest anything other than you are the greatest ATCO to grace the world ever.

8. The more thick-skinned and insenitive you can be towards others the better - especialy if they are struggling.

I hope this helps you. I can assure you they are all guaranteed to work.

Best of luck.

Jerricho

7th Oct 2005, 14:20

I bought a house and a new car

Have you not heard about the curse of buying a new car at the college. I'm only half joking.

sr562

7th Oct 2005, 14:29

Scotslivedit, thats a very pessimistic view of the college. Although in light of recent events rather true.

:confused:

Someone_Else

7th Oct 2005, 16:12

Bern Oulli When did that happen? (Being a retired and out-of-touch instructor.)
Who is in charge now?

Edited to add a bit.

Susan Rudzitus

(edited to put the correct surname in)

terrain safe

7th Oct 2005, 16:13

Bern

T shirt for you.. http://www.teefly.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118&osCsid=f7de130c02066f9ccf0d984682b20eef

:ok: :ok:

rodan

7th Oct 2005, 16:44

sr562/anyone

I don't want to put anyone off, but I've been hearing some stories recently about the pass rate at CATC since the change in the structure of training. Are things particularly bad at the moment?

Northerner

7th Oct 2005, 18:49

I'm not at the College, I work in the Black hole where the nightly smell of burnt out cars still prevails.

I've also not been in work for two days.

However, just before I finished my last shift (so three days ago) I read an announcement by Ian Hall that Kevan Quinn was leaving the college to go and work on a bit of Caspian. (to answer Bern Oulli's question)

Now I don't know exactly what reasons are behind this. I'm also not totally au fait with courses at the moment, but I know that the last couple of lots haven't done too well numbers wise. Whether this is a failing at the college, or a failing of the new courses, or merely due to the quality of the student intakes I couldn't say. But perhaps they are trying to do something about it. I sure hope so, because some of the folk I am being asked to mentor these days (and incidentally I love training people, it's a part of my job that I value most) lack some of the most basic of knowledge that I had when I left the college.

I understand the pressures of getting people through asap to get them live asap because there simply aren't enough of us. However, that isn't going to work if we have to train them for much longer at units because of the knowledge and experience they lack (not necessarily their fault!)

I'm waiting to hear about Kevan's replacement, will post when I know unless someone beats me to it.

Cheers,
N

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

slink

7th Oct 2005, 22:48

Yes, it can be tough. The initial tear away from an existing job, especially if you've been there for a while and enjoy it. The move down to Bournemouth, leaving the wife & kids at home, going mad at your own company in a cheap hotel or rented room for 6 months (or a lot more!). The feeling of fear (and the smell) everytime summatives come around - even if they're not for your course! Oral boards, just to give you an extra roasting if the writtens and the summatives aren't enough. BUT, once that's behind you, nothing can describe the feeling of receiving your "yellow book", knowing you've beaten the odds, and that you survived the initial part of your training.

It doesn't stop there though, I'm now in my 22nd month away from home - 12 months in Bournemouth, and now 10 months at a unit, and the wife / kids still haven't managed to join me. But the highs keep coming - the further through the training you progress, the more you get to do, until eventually the "man from the ministry" is summoned to see if you're up to the job. Fortunately, I was, and am now in my 2nd month of being a valid controller, and enjoying it tremendously. The stress has subsided a little for now, as has the bookwork (until I really start progressing with my approach training, anyway), and I can relax a little and do the job, instead of train for it.

Yes, the pass rate seems to have dropped at the college at the moment, for whatever reason, but in the past 10 months NATS have also adjusted the course to try to improve matters. Yes, there is quite a backlog for training reviews. However, the failure rate hasn't reached 100%, so some people are still passing, and if you don't try it, you'll never know. You have to take the decision very seriously, but if you're prepared to put in the work, accept the grief when someone on your course fails, or worse, gets chopped, get over any setbacks you suffer yourself, put up with being a NATS pawn for 6 - 12 months, and possibly beyond, then I, and I am sure a lot of others on here, would wholeheartedly recommend you go for it.

I guess I painted a bleak picture there, but you've also got to remember that Bournemouth's a great place over the summer - there's no shortage of pubs, clubs and bars to visit (and discuss the course work, naturally!), take your MATS 1 down to the beach and enjoy a beer or two, the instructors and other students are always willing to help, and once you're at the unit, my experience has been fantastic, with the ATCOs that will be your mentors, and then your colleagues eager to help everyway they can.

Go for it, work hard, play hard, and enjoy it!

Bern Oulli

8th Oct 2005, 07:43

Terrain Safe, love it! Where do you find them?

Northerner, when I left (end of August), it certainly wasn't the quality of student. It certainly wasn't the College (I assume you mean the standard of instruction). That leaves the new courses. 'Nuff said.

Someone_Else. Cheers. That has really made my day.......NOT!

Experience is what you get just after you needed it.

Scotsliveit

8th Oct 2005, 09:58

Scotslivedit? Interesting little name you've adopted there. I can assure u it's very much still being lived to the full.

cdb

8th Oct 2005, 19:34

How long is the TR backlog? Twas always a month or so before...

foghorn

8th Oct 2005, 21:12

Rodan, I can only comment on the 203 airports-only course.

Out of eleven who walked through the hallowed College of Knowledge entrance in March: one trainee has left training prior to completing a course; two have been chopped having failed courses; two further trainees are awaiting training review having failed courses; one trainee is on a medical recourse.

On the success side four trainees have been posted to units and the last (but not least) of the eleven trainees has an aerodrome licence and is coming back round for an approach course.

updated in the light of recent news

Northerner

8th Oct 2005, 22:03

Bern Oulli:

Now why did I think that might be the case?
:{ :{ :rolleyes: :suspect:

What do you reckon we can do about it? (as in you give me the ideas and I'll go shout about them)

I didn't know you'd left BTW!
Congratulations (I presume!)

Cheers,
N

ex 96 course - 10 years now!

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

Bev Bevan

9th Oct 2005, 12:38

It's quite simple, Northerner.

They should stop trying to slash the training time at college.

Less time there means trainees going out to their units with less knowledge and to a lesser depth.

For instance, I wonder how the OJTI's at TC (APR) find the trainees that arrive having done an approach course but no aerodrome training?

BB

2 sheds

9th Oct 2005, 13:25

...or the OJTIs at the ACCs likewise?

I am afraid that it is now a combination of beancounters, administrators with no idea of ATC, and some ATC middle managers (to most of whom I would not give the time of day) who have dictated the present scenario. Many of us said at the time that it would end in tears.

The imposition by Eurotrash of the current all-embracing Initial Course (or call it what you will) overloads the newcomers with a whole load of information, much of which they cannot relate to their own experience either on a simulator and certainly not in practice. NATS jumped on this bandwagon and used its introduction to cancel the "Aerodrome training for all" principle which had stood the test of time. It is a cause of considerable concern that controllers will be set in an Aerodrome or Approach or Area mould for years with no direct experience of the other disciplines, then, in their turn, to become managers.

Nick Falzone

9th Oct 2005, 14:17

Would just like to sat how much i enjoyed the rant of how to get along at the college by scotslivedit, mucho amuso, and nice to know that things haven't changed too much since the end of the 90s when i was there.

Out of interest, does the sim room still become engulfed in hairspray and perfume during the summative week while the skirts get shorter, and the sales of wonderbras in bournemouth go thru the roof? Am intrigued to know.

The new car/couple curse was a strong one while we were there, anybody having the balls to buy a new car whilst at the college almost instantly failed the course, and if any students paired up as a couple while at CATC one of the two always seemed to get chopped off a course.

Food for thought!

Another tip to survive is go down to the sim room after 5pm, take all the strips and scripts home, and revise the exercise at night, think no-one will notice even though you taxi planes a certain way because you know another will call you at minute 07 etc.

Then moan and groan all the way through the course, amaze your coursemates how you keep passing despite dismal marks, eventually get found out at NERC, and get sent to an airfield far far away, and have to cheek to apply for a transfer to a busier centre about 2 years later. Justice prevailed and the initial assessment was failed, but full marks for trying.

Good old NATS.

Gonzo

9th Oct 2005, 14:50

Mr. Falzone, I have the feeling we were on the same course!:}

Nick Falzone

9th Oct 2005, 16:37

We were indeed, mr errrm Zo!

And what a course it was!

Jerricho

9th Oct 2005, 16:39

We were indeed, mr errrm Zo!

:suspect:

Gonzo

9th Oct 2005, 17:02

No input Jer? That's a first! :E

JuniorX

9th Oct 2005, 17:05

Think I was on that course as well Falzone, as your story bought the memories of aerodrome flooding back!! I remember the amazement when one of the other guys from our course mentioned that the person was looking to come to our unit!!

Certainly glad I went through the college when I did rather than now, it seems we had a more enjoyable time!

PPRuNe Radar

9th Oct 2005, 19:52

Out of interest, does the sim room still become engulfed in hairspray and perfume during the summative week while the skirts get shorter, and the sales of wonderbras in bournemouth go thru the roof? Am intrigued to know.

I think the girls go even further :D

Warped Factor

9th Oct 2005, 22:38

For instance, I wonder how the OJTI's at TC (APR) find the trainees that arrive having done an approach course but no aerodrome training?

That's bad enough but at least one of our latest EGLL approach trainees will not have spoken to an aeroplane for real until the first time they sit down and plug in with one of us.

Nothing like throwing people in at the deep end, anyone going through the training system these days has my deepest sympathy.

WF.

sr562

10th Oct 2005, 09:13

cdb

The waiting time for TR is around 2 months, but there have been quite a lot to be done recently.

Jerricho

10th Oct 2005, 15:10

I remember the amazement when one of the other guys from our course mentioned that the person was looking to come to our unit!!

Really? I thought they came as a pair (or more) :E :E

matt_pa31

10th Oct 2005, 15:35

Nick Falzone

10th Oct 2005, 16:33

silence from jerricho probably due to the often forgotten fact that he was best man at the wedding of the year 1998.

heh heh!!

readback correct!

Bucking Bronco

10th Oct 2005, 17:15

Matt

TR = Training Review

Which is a panel interview with 3 instructors/managers/HR people (I think) which lasts a couple of hours and they go over all your records and make a decision on whether to give you another chance or to chop you.

Cheers

BB

Jerricho

10th Oct 2005, 18:04

Yeah thanks Nick.

I've tried to forget that.

Johnny5

11th Oct 2005, 09:30

Hi,

Had a good look through this thread now and to be honest i probably will go for it, will just have to come up with another plan about whether to bring the missus down.

Cheers for all the comments guys.

Dances with Boffins

11th Oct 2005, 10:19

Actually, since Pe..Bernoulli retired, there have been less short skirts in evidence. I think it was mostly for his benefit.

Keep in touch you wee bugger. Stuff is still occurring.

DwB:cool:

Bern Oulli

11th Oct 2005, 17:20

DwB I can't help my animal magnetism, and jealousy will get you nowhere. However, in an attempt to stop this thread creeping any further (or hem-lines ditto), 2 sheds has said it all really. A trainee ATCO needs time for things to sink in and mature - a bit like making a good wine. Rush the process and you will get something that is just drinkable but won't last.

Once upon a time, training an ATCO took the best part of three years. Now, with a traffic rate umpteen times what it was then, training takes what? a year? OK, OK, I'm just a dinosaur living in the past but, somewhere between the two extremes is where the training regime should be. Trouble is that the people in charge of making these decisions probably think that "ATCO" is a brand of lawn-mower. How is Suzy by the way?

2 sheds

12th Oct 2005, 10:14

As in "twelve-inch ATCO", as I seem to recall one model was called?

siam

12th Oct 2005, 20:18

"im a retired out of touch instructor"

I thought it was an entry requirement to be out of touch if you wanted to be an instructor. Being a washed up letch seemed to be useful attributes aswell.

Dont let your girlfriend give up her job yet. You will have time to go and see her at weekends and she can come see you. You would be better off without the distraction during the week. Depending on which course you do and how successfull you are you may only be at CATC for about a year maybe less.

I would start the course and see how you get on before making any decisions. Good luck.

cb9002

13th Oct 2005, 09:16

Bucking Bronco
No instructors at the training review - curently being done by

* A representative from HR and the "Head of Training Standards"

Johnny5
LOTS of people getting chopped at the moment. Time at the college varies between 6 months (tower only) and 18 months (area). Over the last couple of area courses only about 50% got through.

I would agree with those posters who suggest that your girlfriend keeps her job and flat - that way if it all goes pear-shaped at least one of you has a job, and you have somewhere to go. Girlfriends tend to get bored in Bournemouth too, since you will be spending virtually all your waking hours working and talking about ATC. Go and see her at weekends.

* Leave the names with barbed comments out of things from now on. PPRuNe Radar

Dances with Boffins

14th Oct 2005, 08:07

Bern I'll take the fifth, if you don't mind...

DwB:cool:

Bern Oulli

14th Oct 2005, 08:39

OK, this is positively my last contribution to this thread.
siam That was a bit harsh, or was it jealousy?

As for the rest, I have my own opinions based on 37 years in ATC including 15 years as a trainer. I have watched a good training system go slowly and steadily down the wrong track (IMHO). The perception from an instructor's point of view is that no-one pays much attention to the opinions of those most likely to have their fingers on the pulse. As I said before, there is nowt wrong with the quality of trainee, and there is nowt wrong with the quality of instructor. The quality of instruction is suffering because of the policy of teaching only the bare minimum necessary (in someone's opinion) to pass through the college and on to a unit in an ever shortening time-scale. If this puts the failure rate up then, OK, we'll double the throughput.

The saddest thing about all this, and I think it is almost criminal, is that the "system" is messing about with people's lives and careers for the sake of fulfilling targets (or reaching destinations!) that are unrealistic.

Perhaps senior management might like to consider another potemtial spin-off from this new approach to training. Suppose some unlucky newish ATCO has a really bad day and manages to weld two aircraft together. What will be the managers' position if it can be shown that ATCOs training now is shallow and inadequate? Ask Balfour Beattie or Network Rail.

The latest Approach Radar (sorry, Approach Surveillance) results speak volumes. When this course was re-written not that many years ago by yours truly and a number of other top-class bods, it was done on a bottom to top basis. Never mind how long the course would last, put in everything an Approach radar controller needs to know. Of course, this was based on the assumption (silly me) that the trainees would already know something about an aerodrome, having done the aerodrome course. The results were extremely good. If you failed it the, by 'Eck you deserved to. Now, as the college moves away from basic stuff like what constitutes "downwind", the pass-rate has plummeted. SURPRISE!

I am very disappointed to see where things are going and I feel huge sympathy for anyone taking on ATC as a career now. Great, superb, if you succeed, but I feel the "if" is now bigger than the "when".

Rant over.

BadgerBadger

14th Oct 2005, 10:24

Hi there,

I'm hopefully due to start at CATC on the next course and have been reading this thread with interest (and needless to say a lot of trepidation). Like jonnhy5, I'll be making a big decision to leave my current job and begin working on becoming an ATCO.

In terms of the changes you guys have mentioned in the training, if it is that the basics are being attended to less now, are there any resources you would recommend could/should be read/learned/understood before beginning in order that I could attempt to get up and running before I start? I guess the MATS part 1 is an obvious answer to my question, but is there anything else you might be able to suggest?

Many thanks in advance. These pages are a very useful, if unnerving, resource for people in situations similar to mine.

ann1979

14th Oct 2005, 10:30

From the Partners point of view!

I was one of the ones who wanted to move down with my partner, and to be honest, I really enjoyed it, apart from the weeks away at flying training, oh and then the 8 weeks away training, but still it was nice.

I found a good job in aviation and life was good. My partner had to work very hard, but it was nice to have me as support when work got stressed.

Throughout the training there was always, "he's failed this, or he's only got another retake left. It always seemed like anything could go either way.

My partner passed the training and got to graduation which was absolutely fantastic. Everyone was so happy. You may think, well we are settled now? But no. He continued with his training, which was getting harder and harder. By this time we had settled and bought a house.

The training was intense, everyone was so tired and needed a break from it, but there was no let up. In the end he failed part of his training and was told we would probably have to move.

We are now living miles away from where we lived. My partner is once again enjoying his work and doing well which is great.

I have still not found a permanent job and can't get anything near the same amount of pay I was on. I actually applied to NATS for a lower down job, was kept waiting for nearly two months and then told I wasn't even going to get to the assessment stage. This let down was in the form of an email, how personal. (Bearing in mind I have worked in Aviation for 3 years)

It would be nice if NATS could give some support to the Partners when they move you around at the drop of a hat! We are here you know and I know people have had to suffer this like me.

I just wanted to let everyone know what it's like from the other side. I wouldn't say don't go, but I would say, think carefully!

2 sheds

14th Oct 2005, 10:39

Couldn't have put it better than Bern Ouilli myself - except, perhaps, to be even more forthright about various members of NATS management who lost sight of the high standards of which they are the first to boast.

So much of their approach suffered from "Emperor's New Clothes" Syndrome. As long as whatever they were proposing would save money and therefore earn them brownie points (apparently nothing to do with the Scouting movement, but deriving from "brown-nosing") and further their own careers, then that was the flavour of the month and anyone raising any objections was publicly labelled as "negative" or told to be quiet. The unfortunate fact was that those making the decisions were probably among the least experienced and least qualified to make such decisions. Many of those involved have now disappeared into the woodwork into other posts leaving others to cope with the present second-rate system.

The removal of the "aerodrome training for all" principle in NATS was instituted in a very underhand way so that people would gain the impression that it had been mandated by Europe. That training had been undertaken for the last half-century and its value was well proven.

Phantom99

14th Oct 2005, 11:47

I feel fairly lucky that I was on one of the last courses through the college undertaking the old style course (Aerodrome-radar skills-approach/area). Although it seemed that we were never going to leave (Mar 03-Feb 05) I certainly don't think any of it was wasted.

Yes we had to hold for over 3 months waiting for the area course to start but I learnt quite a bit during that time at LACC which was certainly beneficial back at college. We also had an extra month of aerodrome OJT (that was when we were allowed to actually control!) which gave me over 100 hrs on TWR and APP at EGAA. The confidence of actually talking to real pilots and not crashing anything was extremely useful to take back to the next few courses.

It does appear that the new courses were introduced to fix a short term problem of lower numbers of graduates making it to units, which certainly worked in some ways as I know of many students that started 6 months after me validating in 2004...I am just about to start live training in late 2005! However from my point of view it doesn't seem that the long term future was considered that well (I am happy to be corrected!)

Gonzo

14th Oct 2005, 13:37

I agree with everything the great Bern Oulli has said. :ok:

There was a time, not so long ago, when we used to get up to four at a time from the college. Back then it was surprising if someone didn't validate.

Now however, we as OJTIs find ourselves throwing hours at trainees hoping some will stick, which isn't good for anybody's morale. The justification?......they've been let down by the system at the college.

fly bhoy

14th Oct 2005, 13:55

Gonzo

We've had our "debates" about some of the changes before, but I have to agree with you now. It certainly seems that the standard of knowledge base on completion of the college will be much lower than previous (not a reflection on the trainees I hasten to add!!:ok: )

Previously I was considering my case (and those from courses just after mine, but prior to the course content change) where we didn't have the approach radar rating, but still did the old style aerodrome course and hence came out with the same level of aerodrome knowledge as previous courses, just lacking a bit in radar appreciation.

It seems to be the case, however, that the new style course is going to be churning out trainees who then require a lot more training than before, just to get up to speed with the basics, hence a lot more time under unit training. Kind of passing the buck IMHO just to fill target numbers of college graduates!!:* :{ An ever so slight concern I must say.

FB:ok:

Gonzo

14th Oct 2005, 17:38

FB,

Yes, bet you can't wait to get your OJTI ticket!!!! :ok:

fly bhoy

14th Oct 2005, 19:17

Looking forward to it like a hole in the head especially if i'd have to train anyone like myself!!!;) :O Nah I wasn't really that bad was I?!? Hold on...don't answer that!!!

FB:ok:

terrain safe

14th Oct 2005, 19:25

Have to say when training people on unit it gets very depressing to have to teach pt 1 stuff as well. People leave the college having learnt enough to pass the course, not enough to make good controllers. Of course the best will still do very well, but the ones who would have scraped through before will not any more, so we will end up with less at the coalface, be even shorter on numbers and the OJTIs can take all the blame - trebles for management all round.

Cynical: No just can see it happening, and what about the pay rise and OJTI paymnents, don't even go there......:hmm:

Gonzo

14th Oct 2005, 20:08

FB, I reckon you'd be pretty good! Seriously.

Terrain safe, it's all going to be OK. What we've all forgotten in our bout of cynicism is that our 'Head Of Planning All Things To Do With Training' has created a 'Unit Improvement' workstream in the 'Training 2008' Destination 22 wotsit.

Of course it's blatantly obvious to everyone that up until now all the OJTIs around the country were just sat there with their thumbs up their behinds, y-fronts on their head and pencils in their nostrils. It seems now we actually have to work for our payment.

Bern Oulli

15th Oct 2005, 07:50

Gonzo, you forgot to say "Wibble".

OOps! I wasn't going to add anymore to this thread. Damn.

sr562

15th Oct 2005, 12:54

Just to add to the other comments being made here. Being at CATC it seems to me that all improvements etc to training is geared toward 2008, and no one really gives a toss about the current state of affairs. Except obviously the trainees and instructors.

The morale among students just now is almost non existent, and everyone just wants to get through the courses and get out of the college asap.

rafmannot51

15th Oct 2005, 13:07

Sorry to say that the products from initial ATC training are as much of a problem in the Military as for you NATS fellas. It should be the case that basic ATC skills are fully embedded prior to arrival at the ATC Unit - however it is too often the case that basic things are having to be re-taught by the Unit Instructors (OJTIs in your jargon). In the Military as with NATS the financial imperative seems to be the abiding driving force - tail wagging the dog?? As mentioned before - throwing training hours at a trainee in the hope that some of it will stick is onerous and stressful for the trainee and the instructor!

Dances with Boffins

17th Oct 2005, 13:13

<reaches for yellow and black handle between knees>:sad:

Bern Oulli

18th Oct 2005, 09:16

I know someone who should have one of these operated by remote control!

loubylou

19th Oct 2005, 17:37

i heard the other day that only 5 out of 30 passed the last approach radar course
if this is indeed true - that is truly disgusting
as bern o said the standard of the instructors and students hasnt really changed much - but the course (lack of) content has

what a waste of everybodys ( instructors and students ) time if these figures are correct

louby

Fletchers Left Boot

19th Oct 2005, 18:59

Slight exaggeration - there were only 12 on the course including one cross-trainer.

sr562

20th Oct 2005, 10:33

Just to add to the above.

There were 12 on the course, 2 of which were experienced controllers before, 1 area, 1 ex mil. Out of the other 10, 1 was recoursed for medical reasons leaving 11 on the course.

Out of the 9 others with no previous ATC experience 3 passed, along with the 2 experienced guys.

So to summarise. Out of 11 people, 5 passed, two of which being the xeperienced guys.

2 sheds

20th Oct 2005, 11:54

How very disheartening. At the risk of going over old ground, this is entirely the result of the attitude of NATS management and those others who were toadying to them.

"The recruits are not going to be aerodrome controllers, so there is no reason to train them in aerodrome control". I was actually told this by someone who was busy working her way up the greasy pole. That was the last thing that she would have advocated not long before when she was still one of the troops. Why then, I wonder, did she think that NATS and its predecessors in title had trained new controllers in aerodrome control first for the last fifty years? (Not only NATS, but IAL and other employers also, to my own knowledge).

At the risk of participating in Sybyll Fawlty's specialist subject ("the bleedin' obvious"), a trainee who has had some aerodrome control experience will have an understanding of the problems and criteria of operating an aerodrome, first-hand experience and knowledge of aircraft types and performance, practical RTF use, emergency scenarios, a wider breadth of understanding all round - and a degree of CONFIDENCE on which to build. None of this is possible by completing a largely theoretical introductory course and then being thrown in at the deep end in either approach radar or area radar.

The NATS middle manager who is the first to declare that the Emperor has no clothes, the current system is wrong and that they need to revert to the original principle will have my respect. "Investor in People"? - I don't think so.