Enstrom Corner

[stevechowles]

Hi there

I am looking at getting an Enstrom and wondered what the differences between the 280 models is.

As I understand the 280 became the 280C when Enstrom added a turbo and a 280F when the engine was increased to 225bhp. What has been added to get the 280FX?

Being based in the UK has anyone any experience flying either model at maximum all up weight. Was there sufficient power available.

Has anyone flown through the Alps in one.

Thanks in advance

Steve

[md 600 driver]

the fx has the same power plant as the 28 f 225 but its a little faster. the first was f28 the came the c [turbo ]then the fx /f regards steve a

[CRAN]

Hi Steve

Why an ENSTROM? Why not an R44?

Jase:confused:

[stevechowles]

I fly 44's also and own a 22 but it comes down to a number of things:

Mainly that the Enstrom is not lifed like the 44. If hasn't got a 12 year life, I am not forced to change oil every 3 months if I do not do 25 hours, likewise with the other maintenance intervals.

It uses about 3 gallons an hour less.

I am big chap around 235 pounds and I have worked out that I can only carry 3 passengers with full fuel in the 44 which I can also carry in the Enstrom. Most of my flying is either myself or my partner. The 44 rear seats will be mostly empty.

My only gripe will be a 50 minute trip to have any maintenance done but hey, its another 50 minutes flying and thats we like.

I am interested in any other comments.

Thanks

Steve

[Flight Safety]

I've also been considering an Enstrom 280FX, and would welcome any comments regarding this machine or Enstrom products in general.

[Amazon man]

Out of interest what are peoples view on the older Enstrom F28

[Fr O'Blivien]

Did some time on the basic F28 and 28C.

The basic 28 is BASIC, believe me. Instrumentation often consists of ASI, Altimeter, DG, tacho and Cessna style tiny basic engine instruments all in a line in a car type dash. It may have VSI ahd AI but often not. As TOT said it is a delightful thing to fly if well tracked which is a job for a magician, but if you have a nearby friendly Enstrom magician that is fine. Engineers generaally hate Enstroms because of atrocious accessibility of the bits they need to get to regularly, and the total impossibility of reaching those less often touched. However, it's a nice toy, power restricted for hot, or high, or heavy ops, but in the UK a 12 stone me, a 20stone wife and her 10 stone husband achieved a 30 minute sightseeing trip perfectly OK. It is slowish, 100mph seems familiar, but it does everything a real helo is supposed to do with no vices that I ever heard of. Baggage space is good.

The 28C has lots more power, a bit faster, better instrument panel that is likely to be laid out in a T of sorts, more range, payload and a simply wonderful exhaust bark from the stack just behind the pilots door.

Both are stable, very very maneuverable (see Denis Kenyon's legendary displays...awesome) and posess the best possible qualities in autorotation, huge inertia, though not of B47 standards.

I believe that no Enstrom has ever had a critical in flight failure, so the dynamics are considered bullet proof.

I loved my time on the F28 and 28C, though I certainly preferred the C for "Work". Maintenance though may be another matter. These machines are getting rather old now, and engineers never liked them when new, simply for the ease of access problems. Looking in my logbook though I am impressed by the number of tracking details I did. That is clearly not an Enstrm strong point.

Overall, a good private owners machine that will utilise your skills in limited power situations (particularly the F28) and be great fun to fly. It carries 3 - midway between the Robinson products, but treat it as a 2+1 machine. It will be cheap to buy, but check on maintenance costs carefully. Talk to other owners if you can, and if you buy one, buy a good one with a personal recommendation behind it if possible.

Good flying!

[md 600 driver]

hi tot

the n reg yellow and blue 480 flys well too as you know.

its nearly a 480b


please if you get a min will you check your log book and email me or send text message the date you delivered pv to me

see you soon
steve

[stevechowles]

I was speaking with someone at the weekend who says he wouldn't touch an Enstrom again and never sell one to anyone. He mentioned about teeth being lost on the ring gear during startup and cam wear problems if the engine is overboosted due to the engine never being designed for turbo charging. The problem is there is no way over knowing if someone has previously overboosted it. If you buy an Enstrom, be prepared for allot of trips to the engineers. He also mentioned about blade delamination.

Any comments?

[Flight Safety]

I've heard of some serious recent problems with the Tex Lyc 540 series engines when they are turbocharged, but hadn't heard of any real issues with the turbocharged 360 series.

[Thomas coupling]

I had the ocassion to look very close to 2 Enstroms recently. One was about 4 years old and the other looked brand new. Next to these contraptions sat an R22.
What I would like to know is this:
What attracts a sane person to pay a not insubstantial amount of money to climb into these devices and defy gravity.
Even ignoring my background and trying to approach the subject from an unbiased point of view. These contraptions seem alarmingly fragile and heath robinson to say the least:eek:

Is it down to one or some of the foll:
1. Any excuse to fly rotary.
2. Cheapest means of getting airborne in 3D.
3. Blind faith
4. Crass stupidity.

I nearly fell off my penny farthing when I read that someone suggested flying one thru the Alps:eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm not trying to be smug or cocky..only, I would equate these machines in the car world to driving a Sinclair C5 down the M6:D

Why don't prospective purchasers save for a second hand R44 or MD series (500)(not the notar either).

[md 600 driver]

steve i have had 4 enstrom pistons never had a problem with ring gear or delamination. i have heard of people having problems with delamination but these were on 1976 /1980s ships. the rotor blades are lifed on condition when they start to delaminate they usually are very old .
they are not any worse that others read posts about koala vibration..
i know of a md600/900 both having probs with blades even robbos had to change there blades on 44s a few years ago

go try a enstrom its the only way but beware when youve done a auto in one robbos seem a bit [lot] fast and your check book might be coming out

regards steve

[Steve76]

Check out http://www.mckenzieauction.com/past/200203211000.shtml

One of these things sold for $80500 Canadian + fees and tax.

Good component times but then again it was an ex-drug machine.
Very few entries - CYXU DIR PLANTATION, SLING FERTILISER RET DIR CYXU............:D

[stevechowles]

Ok Steve I will go test one at Shoreham and see how I get on.

[Ga. Chopper]

I learned to fly in R22's and now I own a F28C-2, Enstroms are great machines. The transition required getting use to "no governor" and the use of a 4 way trim switch.

I fell much more safe flying the Enstrom than I did in R22's. Autos are much eaisier and the ship is much more stable, especially in gusty winds. I can trim the cyclic for "Hands Off" in cruise which can never be done in a Robinson. The rotor system is extremly smooth. It has plenty of reserve power and tail rotor authority. The NTSB reports a good safety record and my insurance rates also reflect that. My insurance company said that the Enstrom was the most insurable for me, due to my low hours and it's good accident record.

I am also an A&P mechanic and I do all my own maintenace. This heli is not as eaisy to work on as an R22, but I do not find it difficult to work on. I think the reason Enstroms may have a bad reputation for maintenance is because some mechanics may not now how to maintain them. One needs to attend the factory maintainence course, just like Robinson requires, to be properly checked out on how to manitain one. Once, an Enstrom is set up correctly, it flys smooth and reliable. :)

[Flight Safety]

The following link is to the type certification document for the Enstrom helos:

Enstrom Type Certificate (http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/f2f667488a8495328525676200542f0b/706ba452c51dec7d86256a62004c597f/$FILE/H1CE.pdf)

One interesting part is the retirement times for various parts on pages 25-29. This data looks pretty good, however the retirement times seem rather short for some of the TR parts, including the spindle and TR gear set.

Does anyone know if good Enstrom maintenance exists in the Dallas/FW or north Texas area? There does seem to be quite a number of Enstroms being operated here in Texas, so hopefully there is.

I'd love to hear more about other's experiences with Enstrom helos.

(edited to ad request for maintenance info)

[ppheli]

When you go to Shoreham be sure to check out what you are considering buying. This week they took delivery of a job lot of five 280FXs from the Chilean Army and I am wondering whether or not our CAA will give them UK tickets or not...?

Remember what happened with MW when they tried getting round the rules using Swazi registrations on the Gazelles? No more Swazi reg's around now...

PP

[md 600 driver]

pp heli
i belive it is 13fx s from chile
these can go back on the n reg or on the uk reg
these are production 280 fx not as in the case of HT2/ HT3 gazelles These were not AS341g gazelles so to put them on the caa with full c of a would require type certificates for the HT2/HT3 which would be very very expensive

[Ga. Chopper]

Flight Safety,

The tail rotor and main rotor gear boxes are factory overhauled at 1200 hours, for around $4,000 and $14,000 respectively. Everything inside is new except for the case.

Most older tail rotor spindles have been replaced with newer a newer style that has a much higher service life. Most of the parts with the low service life apply only to the original F28 "A" model.

Any of the piston models with the "C" designation or the 480 turbine have higher service limits. And a majority of the "C" model parts are also on the turbine, including main rotor blades. The "C" model parts on the piston powered models, were robust enough to use on the turbine. That is why Enstrom piston powered models are among the toughest built heli's in the industry.

[Lu Zuckerman]

Once when working on the V-22 program I got into a conversation with one of the Boeing engineers. We started to talk about light helicopters and I told him (having never seen an Enstrom up close) that I thought They were a piece of crap. He took a degree of offense to my remark stating that during his summer holidays away from the university he used to work in the engineering department assisting the chief engineer. That wasn’t bad enough, it turned out that the chief engineer who had designed the helicopter was also his father. Later on when I got a chance to see the Shark model I was duly impressed with the design and the build quality.

[Flight Safety]

I understand the 280fx's coming from the Chilean Army were used as primary and instrument trainers. In the US, it can be a real issue to get ex-military helos re-certified for "normal" catagory operations, particularly if the helos come from a "foreign" (non-US) military service.

In the US, some of the applicable information is...

AC21-13, AC20-96, AC21-12B, and perhaps AC21-17. I think FAR 21.185(b) comes into play also. I can't find it right now, but I've read that "foreign" surplus military aircraft might not be certified. Maybe someone with more knowledge can shed more light on this subject. I bring this up since these helos are coming from a "foreign" military service relative to the UK.

FAA Advisory Circulars (http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet)

I think md600driver is correct, these machines appear to have been manufactured as normal production 280fx's when sold to the Chilean Army, so they should be re-certifiable as "normal" catagory aircraft (or the UK equivalent). I just hope the non-UK military surplus thing is not an issue.

(edited for a typo)

[md 600 driver]

flight safety

we have had on the uk register bell 47 ex uk military with full pt cof a also ex uk mil as3130 ex yugo 341g ex mill hillers ex swiss mil allouettes
where it seems to get cloudy is when aircraft have special engines / modifications ie ex uk mil gazzelles .ex french mil allouettes .ex us hueys, th55,th57,oh58 ect
did not some of the oh6 [hughes 500,s ] go on the us register as these were production helis
some one in the us must know more about this regarding us ex mil

[Hoverman]

You can be 100% certain of one thing - if the CAA can find a way of making it more difficult for the aviation industry, they will.
The Gazelles are a case in point.
The ex-mil Gazelles were produced on the same production and to the same standards as the civvy machines. Customers were offered three engine variants (same engine, slightly different specs) but only two were type certificated at the time. The one chosen by the mil was not because there was no need.

The Swaziland reg came about because one of MW Helicopters was exported and the Swazi CAA treated it as a variant of a certificated engine, looked at its long established impeccable safety record, confirmed that there was full manufacturers back-up and, very sensibly, issued a Type Certificate for the ex-mil Gazelle.

The UK Campaign Against Aviation, in their infinite wisdom, refuse to recognise the Type Certificate and will only issue a Permit with silly and completely unnecessary restrictions.
Sadly predictable. :rolleyes:

[BlenderPilot]

We got a 480B, brand new from the factory about 3 months ago, it has been AOG, for two months due to constant tail rotor GB chips, several trim unit failures, the belts slipping constantly, and engine stalls.

Another dumb thing is that our field elevation is 7,341 FTAMSL and according to the charts with a given weight/temp you can hover OGE but you cannot take off or land at this same weight, go figure!

[Flight Safety]

Has anyone else had a similar experience with a 480B (or other Enstrom)?

Also, who in their right mind would buy a helo, with only marginal performance at the operating airfield's altitude and expected temp conditions????? No intelligent person that I know, would make a purchasing decision like that.

(edited for a typo)

[Cyclic Hotline]

See what happens when you don't read one of these threads - you miss the best stuff! ;)

Interesting topic this. I used to maintain a very old F-28, and hated the thing - but I think it was much more to do with the particular aircraft, and perhaps even more to do with the particular owner! :)

I still never really thought of them as real machines, until I had the great pleasure of witnessing Dennis Kenyon flying one! Dennis is able to demonstrate the capabilities of the aircraft in such an amazing manner, that I have never known anyone to not be impressed by an Enstrom after that!

All of the Enstrom owners I have ever met, have had nothing but good to say about them - so just shows you what I know (knew?).

In response to the certification issues, I have addressed some of this in the Swazi thread.

For FAA standard category certification, a product is eligible for certification under a Type Certificate if it conforms to that TC. It is also possible for a product that was not manufactured under a TC to be certified in Standard Category, if it can conform to the TC (unusual situation, but possible).

In the instance of a former military aircraft. FAA Restricted Category certification is limited to aircraft previously operated by the US military ONLY, any foreign military operation removes eligibility (of course you need to have a TC as well). It used to be possible to cobble a Restricted TC together very simply and reasonably rapidly, but those days are gone now.

FAA Standard Category certification is available for ex-military machines, regardless of who or where they were operated so long as they conform to a TC. The key to certification is the ability to conform the product to the TC, and good paperwork which also includes repairs, overhauls etc; - standard fare for the business. This option also exists for many agencies outside the US, as a complete standard airworthiness and certification package exists for the product and the issuance of the TC.

The caveat to this statement, is to ensure that the Serial Number of each aircraft is included in the TC. It is not unusual to see specific S/No: aircraft noted as ineligible on a TC, generally as a result of a configuration or build change that was never commercially certified, typically for military customers, often overseas!

That military operators purchase straight commercial products make good sense for the military and the Operator, as the products retain some useful value at the end of their military life and are generally quite marketable.

Current ex-military aircraft from a variety of sources that are in standard category commercial operation include (not a definitive list), Bell 47, 205, 206, 212, 214B, 214ST, S64E, S64F, MD500D, etc....

Obviously it is important to do the background work before starting, as many people have bought aircraft that are ineligible for certification for one reason or another (saw this very recently!). This includes ex US military aircraft that may be ineligible for certification to a Restricted Category TC, due to the advanced modification state of the current aircraft, compared to the original aircraft used for certification (just been through this issue at great length).

I was recently formally advised by the FAA that some of my Restricted ships did not conform to the TC and would have their Airworthiness Certificates withdrawn in 30 days. The basis for this action was the FAA being advised that the aircraft was not manufactured under the data plate the manufacturer had installed at manufacture, but under the BUNO (mil ID) that is used to track it in the military inventory. We were able to resolve the issue pretty simply, not least by referring to the manufacturers own drawing - but makes you sweat a little when you are first told that on the phone!!!!

I also have had access to the entire UH-1 series engineering reports and life limit package, which makes for some pretty interesting reading with respect to the commercial models! ;)

There are many pitfalls for the unwary - so go in with your eyes open, ask questions and track down the people who know what they are talking about for the specific model.

[md 600 driver]

ive had 2 480 s one oldish one and one new from the factory

i never had a problem with a tail rotor
i have had a main rotor chip light come on when new but it was swarf and did not happen again, my engine never stalled [thank god] but its a allison 250 c20w nearly the same as 206/500 cant see this is a enstrom problem

i never had a trim failure on both 480s
and i didnt have any problems with belts however i do know of someone who did

helicopters all have limitations you dont use a robbo with 2 big men in a hot and high place with full fuel whoever bought this heli should have read the opperation manual before buying as it seems its not very suitable at this height[a lot of other helis would have the same problems]

this experiance was gained in 450 plus hours in 2 enstrom 480,s and approx 400 hrs in piston enstroms

enstrom are not the fastest to respond but 2 months aog sounds a long time i have not had to wait anything like that
you want to ring bob tuttle at the factory and tell him ,he has always sorted out completely any problems ive ever had

i am also a satisfied enstrom customer having 4 pistons before that
i changed my helicopter to another make to get a bigger heli

steve atherton.

[stevechowles]

Steven

I had a demo in a 280FX at Shoresham and enjoyed the ride. Being only a 22 and 44 man, the Enstrom felt allot bigger and stronger and for a large guy like me, the seating and leg room was ideal. I am doing my conversion soon and if all goes well I will be an owner. Doubt if I will have one by the heli champs as someone has oversped my 22 just as I was about to sell it. Trying to build my partners enthusiasm but all she wants is a new kitchen, oh well.

[t'aint natural]

What's going on at Enstrom?
The President and Vice President summarily sacked, and rumours of bankruptcy.
Anyone know?

[PANews]

There is a bit of a story on Rotorhub.com but it still leaves your questions in limbo.

[Thomas coupling]

I wouldn't be surprised. The aircraft hasn't developed much at all really over the last few years. The competition on the other hand has come on in leaps and bounds.

[blave]

The article on Rotorhub

http://www.rotorhub.com/news/0303/ed10.htm

lists Enstrom's owner as "a Swiss national living in the U.S.".

I thought that Dean Kaman (the guy that invented the "Segway" personal transportation gizmo) owned Enstrom - a segment on CBS 60 Minutes last year said something about that.

Did he sell Enstrom, or did I misunderstand the news segment?

[md 600 driver]

i was at the factory after hai the place was busy .steve daniels was seemingly sorting things out lots of new practices and lots of orders seems a shame hes gone

they were also updating lots of things even talking of a speed upgade to 135 kts [cruise] for the 480 with the new dampers assembly they were testing when we were there .

if the enstrom range of helicopters could start volume production they would be a viable competitor for the training market in stead of robinson . remember in the uk nobody has ever has a fatal crash in a enstrom ,its auto rotations are a doddle and as for reliability second to none

i have had 5 piston enstroms and 2 turbines all have been a joy to have and relativly inexpensive to opperate

steve

[OFBSLF]

I thought that Dean Kaman (the guy that invented the "Segway" personal transportation gizmo) owned EnstromThat's Dean Kamen, not Kaman.

[md 600 driver]

no he sold it to a unknown swiss man afaik

[Gunship]

http://www.saflyermag.co.za/Photo's/2002/enstrom-2,jpg.jpg
For several reasons use of helicopters by South African aerial applicators fell out of fashion some years ago. However, the discovery of some Enstrom airframes and spray gear in a dusty Ghanaian hangar may lead to a revival of rotary wing crop spraying

Those in aviation who are plugged in to African politics will know that every so often a leadership change presents new opportunities. This applies to rotary wing aircraft as much as fixed wing and it's amazing what can appear from the dusty shadows of an old hangar.

When Flight Lieutenant Gerry Rawlings came to power in a military Coup in 1981 local government was obliged to mark time until the new administration found its feet. The changes also had a similar effect on aid programs, many of which languished until eventually cancelled. Before the Coup, the country was in turmoil anyway and one casualty was a crop spraying operation allegedly financed by one of many Non-government-organisations involved in Ghanaian development. The program was to use Two Enstrom F28Cs delivered to Kotoka International Airport, Accra, in the late seventies.

Concerned that political upheaval in Ghana would lead to two of their helicopters being maintained in a haphazard fashion, Enstrom kept track of their whereabouts. The company contacted South Africa's distributor, Wonderboom-based Salelease and asked their CEO, Keith Smith, to take a look at them. Keith subsequently flew to Accra in 1989 and indeed found the two helicopters at the back of a hangar, one of which had crashed and was in pieces. Alongside them were two complete sets of spray gear, specially manufactured for the F28C.

Successfully negotiating their purchase, Keith packed the two complete airframes into a container and liberated them to South Africa. One of the two 1977 model Enstroms, ZS-RJT, is still flying in private ownership today. The spray gear was stored in Keith's hangar and was recently dusted off and attached to F28C ZS-HMC, an Enstrom Keith originally sold new in 1981.

The use of helicopters for aerial applicators in South Africa is not new. Using turbocharged Bell 47GBs and Hiller UH-12L4s as their preferred delivery vehicles, helicopters were ideally suited to spraying small areas and undulating terrain. Initially, rotary wing sprayers proved somewhat more expensive than their fixed wing counterparts. Aerial spraying was carried out using dedicated but inexpensive Piper Pawnees, Cessna Ag-Wagons and various other aircraft. Over the years there has been a trend towards larger farms and consequently bigger aircraft. As airframes grew, so too did the need for more power, leading to the almost universal adoption of turbine engines. Predictably, costs skyrocketed to a point today where a new crop duster is several times the cost of a sixties or seventies-manufactured piston helicopter.

A high attrition rate and parts scarcity has rendered 30-year old Hillers and Bells obsolete resulting in a scarcity of suitably-powered helicopters and Keith has decided to fill the niche market that still remains. Amongst traditional helicopter users have been Cape wineries, banana farms and sugar farms. The South African Police makes extensive use of rotary wing sprayers in the battle to destroy dagga plantations. Main rotor downwash tends to allow spray particles to form a swirl, which wineries like as it gives a measure of coverage to the underside of its grape bushes. Banana and cane sugar farms are often located in hilly areas, especially along Natal's south coast where helicopters are the only method of spraying plantations.

Helicopters have a number of other advantages apart from accuracy. Fluids can be placed immediately adjacent to the field so there is virtually no ferry time for reloading. Speeds are more easily controlled over upward and downward slopes and penetration is often better as a consequence of the helicopter's slower speed - about 60mph for most applications. Some operators also maintain that the swathe is more even as there is no propwash to dissipate the spray released under the fuselage.

From a piloting point of view, turns are tighter and hence reduce spray time. A helicopter can make a 180 degree turn at the end of its spray run in 9-14 seconds compared to a fixed wing aircraft that can take between 30 and 45 seconds to turn around. Moreover, the turns can be completed at a far lower speed without the risk of stalling - an area fixed wing pilots are at risk.

If Keith is able to fill his niche, he will have placed himself in a unique position. Although a current model Enstrom F28F can be bought new for US$330K plus an additional US$20k for spray gear, older models, like ZS-HMC can be purchased for R1.5 million in a zero-timed condition. Enstrom quote R900 per hour direct operating cost for a new F28F advising an extra 12 percent for older models. The company currently manufacture two models - the 225hp Lycoming engined F28F and similarly-engined 280FX. The last F28C was delivered in 1980.

[Dennis Kenyon]

Just to add a few notes to this thread.

In the late 70's, I was Chief Pilot of the Shoreham Airport, UK based firm of Spooner Aviation. A subsidiary - Spooner Ag Services operated three 28C models over a three year period. Indeed we made a publicity film of the type at work which I have to this day.
The ag gear was the Agrinautics 3100 equipment for spray work. For dry application we used the Vicon hopper and belt driven rotary impellor. We carried a 600lb load and whilst I might well have preferred a B47 - the Enstroms never let us down and worked reliably over the period. I regularly achieved a spray rate of over 100 acres an hour even on small UK fields. The big 34 foot diameter three blade rotor system downwash gave a deep crop penetration that the farmers seemed to like. We used the ICI Maneb for potatoes and treated for Septoria and rinkosporium I seemed to recall !! The machine was certified for Ag work at 2600lbs, (250lbs over the standard F28C MGW)

I'll happily chat more if anyone becomes further interested.

Dennis Kenyon.

PS I know we shipped one Enstrom down to Accra in the mid 70's.possibly the one that was found.






ek The

[Dennis Kenyon]

Enstrom at Menominee.

The Enstrom saga is indeed a sad one. In 1972 my boss Roy Spooner (indeed a man with flair and an eye for a deal) took me off to Menominee to meet the eminent trial lawyer F Lee Bailey who owned the plant. We signed up an immediate order for twenty-four 28A models at a fixed dollar price.

I was directed to be the sales whizz kid and in spite of the underpowered machine (more correctly overweight) I managed to find buyers for them all in a two year period. So Roy and I promptly went back to the factory and bought twenty-four more !!

These were also sold and I can still recite the serial numbers of them all and their original CAA registrations. Then came the turbo model and the Greg Focella new Shark shape. He also designed the sharper nose layout of the MD 500. This produced another fifty sales from our Shoreham base. In the ten year period from 1972 to 1982 I personally sold 137 in the UK market. But that was before the ubiquitous Robinson hit the scene.

Any secrets for the success ? Hardly, Spoonair used the type on its school as a basic trainer as did CSE and Bill Bailey thereby introducing the type at the buyers entry level.

I used to fly the type at and to airshows, boat shows, car showrooms (alongside what was then the new Camargue) even a shoe fair at Olympia. I did 300 hours in demo rides in one year. The type was featured in the offball magazines on the cover of Mayfair, Building Equipment News, even in Playboy- and it must have worked as the figures showed. The factory was then producing around 80 machines each year and F Lee Bailey was pleased with his investment. He bought the factory long before Victor Kiam got the idea. FLB was a man who listened and reacted by making changes. The product was a good one albeit with some irritating shortcomings. But so is the Ferrari.

Then several things happened. F Lee Bailey sold the plant to the ex Lycoming guys. They kept it for a year or so and sold on to the Bravo Corporation. Then sold again to Dean Kamen.

Lots of factory sales but precious little helicopter production. The UK parts support tailed off. CSE stopped using the type on its school. (at one time they operated six) and more unforgivingly as airframe times increased, the type started to give in service problems. Then Frank produced his innovative R22 which swept the Enstrom aside. At one time I drew up plans to bring the whole factory assembly and production to the UK, complete with the leading factory personnel. The pound/dollar rate was almost par and UK production in sterling would have produced an unbeatable international dollar sales price.

In vain did I write to Bob Tuttle saying what I thought had gone wrong. I pleaded - as did others - for the factory to produce a specialised trainer. Simon Gibson even drew up plans for a lightweight 28T Super Trainer. I wanted to call it the Enstrom Skyline. (after my company) But all fell on deaf ears and the product just died for want of sales.
The 480 might well have put sales back on the map, but with a daft luggage space, no chance of seating five or even four people and a mostly choppy ride, sales were never going to be high. The loyal Enstrom 28/280 owners bought a few, but sadly the patient was dying. I'm sure from what I heard, Steve Daniels may well have been able to put the type back in the market, but it was not to be.

I still feel the Enstrom has a future somewhere, but they need to take the FX and chop around 200lbs off its weight AND/OR fit a Lycoming 540 engine. I once produced an airframe 'plug conversion' for the 280 which would have brought the seating up to five. Something like the one off 280L Hawk that was demonstrated at San Diego in 1981 and which I flew there.

A good sleek and stylish 4 seater helicopter that would have seen off the R44. But that was another good factory project that never got into production.

So on we go. I'm sure yet another buyer will emerge for Rudy Enstrom's great design, For those who still like the type - we can only hope.


Rotorboy

,



)



t














R

[ppheli]

Interesting time line

1979 - R22 launched
1980 - the last year so far that Enstrom made over 15 in 1 year
1982 - end of 280C production
1982 - end of 28A in CSE training fleet (see above)
1984 - Dennis Kenyon buys his first Robinson
1988 - start of 280FX production

I agree, the R22 killed off Enstrom.

I never knew Bailey, but suspect he may not have been the entrepreneuer you make him out to be. Certainly he had a design which sold well for 13 years 1967 to 1980 but he failed to respond or innovate to meet the R22 challenge and the company nosedived there and then. You obviously spotted that in 1984, buying an R22, having already left Shoreham and started at Booker.

Steve Daniels was actually the first guy who showed a flair to turn this round - interestingly Tuttle works for Dean Kamen now!

Finally - your stretched 280 cabin lives on in the dump outside Aces High at North Weald...........

[Flight Safety]

I'd love to buy a new 280FX, but I'm very reluctant to commit because of the present circumstances at Enstrom.

I even thought briefly about buying the company, but there'd be a lot of problems to overcome for a new buyer. While the basic product line is extremely good, product innovation has seriously lagged at Enstrom.

I basically agree with some of Dennis's suggestions for developing the products.

I think the basic F28 should remain just that, basic. This is the machine to develop into a low cost (and low operating cost) trainer, as well as an entry level machine. Perhaps it needs some loss in weight and possibly a switch back to a normally aspirated engine with fuel injection. A very hard look at several possible configurations would be required to arrive at the proper parameters, for this machine to fill these roles.

The F280 needs to have greater differentiation from the F28. The 280 needs 4 good seats and perhaps the 540 engine with fuel injection (which Dennis suggested). It could probably use new rotor blades with a new airfoil for higher speeds. A new airfoil might require a low pressure boost system, which it would have to carry.

The 480 needs better seating and a 4-blade rotor system with a new airfoil and boost system for better speed.

Enstrom has a great reputation for safety that can be built upon by a new owner. I believe that any possible design innovations would have to be done while maintaining this same high safety standard.

All of this would not only require the cash to buy the company, but a great deal of cash for investment in part inventories, people and systems for dealer and maintenance support, and of course the needed product development.

It would be an uphill struggle.

[rotorboater]

So what's the craic? Has Enstrom gone bust or is it for sale?

I am so pleased with my 280C that I would be interested in buying the company, well a bit of it anyway!

FS If you are interested in buying it, send me a PM, I may be interested in doing something.

I hope it can be kept going as it is IMHO a good product.

[Flight Safety]

RB, I can't for several reasons, not the least of which is the cash requirement that I think is needed to really get the company going. My wife and I don't borrow money for any reason, and I think a much greater cash requirement would be needed AFTER purchasing the company. I think a new owner needs to invest heavily in the company for 2 plus years, then he has to wait a while for a good return, while steady investing in it after the initial heavy cash period. Unfortunately I just can't do this right now, even though I see the potential in the company. Besides, I'm more than a little uncomfortable with my present knowledge of the industry. I'd like to know a lot more.

There are 2 nice technical innovations I heard about recently. One is Enstrom seems to have finally come upon the right bearing combination in the bearing stack for the tail rotor blades. The change greatly reduces the maintenance requirement in that area. The second is they came up with a thick wall main rotor drive shaft, that seems to have eliminated all of the touchy tracking problems that Enstroms are known for. Unfortunately the thin wall drive shafts will remain in circulation for a quite while. Additional cash could change that.

I think more product innovations of the reduced maintenance type need to be made, in addition to product development that would make the helicopters more competitive against you know who.

[Gaseous]

If Enstrom do go bust, what is the implication for C of A? Someone told me that if an aircraft is no longer 'supported' by the manufacturer it cannot have a C of A here in the UK. Would it have to go onto a permit to fly?.

I love my F28A, one of the ones Dennis first sold. I learnt in Robbos but prefer my F28A to an R22 for its fuel injection, safety, looks, luggage space, cheap and available secondhand parts and extra (childs) seat. Yes it is slow, underpowered and heavy but it gets me and my family around just fine and is cheap to insure, and so far reliable and cheap to run. Its performance 2 up is about the same as an R22. The 280FX is no competition to R44 and too expensive to compete with R22. If Enstrom survive they need to go upmarket to compete with the R44 or bring back a simple 2 seat updated version of the 28A as a trainer to compete with the R22.

R22 pilots who have been in my 28year old Enstrom have been without exception impressed with the way it flies.


I have read a lot of negative stuff about Enstroms on this and other sites over the years - mostly not true. It will be a shame if the company fails.

[dupontrotors]

Those of us at Enstrom certainly suffered a shock when Steve Daniels was let go!. It seems that he got crossways with the ownership over Enstrom's needs for extra financing to support the expansion that we are presently going through. It was an unfortunate communications problem between him and the owners that got out of control and led to his downfall.

The good news is that owners are solidly behind the program and Enstrom is on firm footing financially.

Peter Parsinen is replacing Steve at the helm at Enstrom. He was Senior VP at Bell during their expansin several years ago and was the guy who recruted Steve originally; he had been advising Steve on the Sales and Marketing initiatives that we had recently undertaken.

The upshot of all this is that the expansion and improvements are moving forward just as they were. The increased orders have allowed Enstrom to add engineers to the staff so that we can go ahead with developing some of the product improvements that have fallen behind in recent years.

I think that you will see Enstrom emerging as a major player in the helicopter world, we will probably always be the smallest, but that will allow us to provide the individual customer support that we have been somewhat haphazard about in the past.

[Flight Safety]

DR, I'm very glad to hear this, as I hope to be a customer sometime in the future.

BTW, how is the product support (for the 280FX) here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area? I apologize that I haven't had time to research this very much.

[Ga. Chopper]

I am orginally a fixed winger and recieved my private add-on for helicopters 2 years ago. I learned in the R-22 and loved it's attributes but never felt real confident with only about 40 hours in make and model. Plus, I never felt safe doing autos with my Instructor , let alone solo.

Then I purchased a 1980 Enstrom F-28C-2 and received the commercial add-on and also plan on getting the CFI add-on this summer. I now have about 100 hours in the Enstrom and 40 in the R-22.

The Enstrom has really improved my confidence because of it's "hands off stability" in forward flight and it's fantastic autorotation characteristics. The only issue of transitioning from the R-22 to the Enstrom was leanring how to manage the manual throttle, since there is no governor or mechanical correlator. After a few hours of dual instruction, I was able to proceed on my own solo. Soon, I was able to do all types of autos, even full touch downs with confidence and without an Instructor.

Then, I was able to manage the throttle by using my ears and not just the tachometer, as well as by the feel. That enabled me to practice loss of tail rotor to a full touch down landing, since I am comfortable using the throttle all the time. When I take other helicopter pilots up in my Enstrom, they are so impressed because the stigma becomes a myth.

I don't want to become over-confident, especially since I am still a low time rotorhead, but I do feel that the Enstrom has made me a better and safer pilot. I am also an A&P Mechanic, have been to the factory school for training and am highly impressed with the personnel at Enstrom!

[dupontrotors]

For Ensrom support in the Dallas area I would try Sky Helicopters in Garland, Ken Pratt is a Dealer for Brand R but I believe he has supported an Enstrom in the past and was great to us when we were at his facility during the helicopter show this year and in the past. Our president Peter Parsinen lives in Dallas so we could probably do some leg work for you if you need it.

[Constable Clipcock]

Finally got the opportunity to get down to some serious work towards that helo rating, and on the Enstrom 280C at that!

My assessment of it - for what a helo novice's opinion is worth - is that it's a solid-feeling machine, but a bit on the expensive-to-rent side for a two-seat training helo.

Gotta travel much further than practical if I'm to get cheaper time on a Robbie or a Schweizer, so I've bitten the bullet to pay the extra money for the Enstrom time. I linked up with an aerial applicator who operates a 280C and happened to have an instructor ticket.

He's essentially the "only game in town", but to get my time on a larger aircraft - fitted with all the usual spraying kit to boot! - actually makes it seem worth the extra money. Well.... SOMETIMES!

[Flight Safety]

Thanks DR, I know right where Sky Helicopters is. I'll try to get the time to go by and visit with Ken. I knew they were a dealer for Brand R and I've seen some Schweizers there, but had no idea they were also involved with Enstroms.

[ppheli]

Enstrom's management and ownership changes have been debated on Rotorheads a lot recently, so I'm sure it's a boost to the company to have this order!

Enstrom Press Release
Menominee, Mich., July 7, 2003 - Enstrom Helicopter Corporation has been chosen by the Indonesian National Police to deliver 18 helicopters over the next 12 months. Enstrom’s 480B turbine will modernize their helicopter fleet in support of typical security mission profiles in its demanding hot and humid environment. Other finalists competing for the contract, which was signed last week, were Schweizer and Eurocopter.

“This is a big win for Enstrom Helicopter Corporation,” said President Peter Parsinen. “The Indonesian announcement is a very important international endorsement stating that Enstrom is a top competitor in building quality helicopters for police agencies around the world. The Indonesian police are a very professional organization and great to work with. The 480B’s performance and price more than fill all the requirements to perform the police’s important security role.”

Parsinen went on to say that this win confirms Enstrom’s decision to rebuild its worldwide dealer network. He said Enstrom’s Asia office and its Indonesian representative, P.T. Poris Duta Sarana, were instrumental in the win.

At home, the deal will mean more jobs and an increased production schedule for the plant.

Founded in 1959, Enstrom manufactures the three-place, piston-powered F28F and 280FX, and the turbine-powered 480B. For law enforcement applications, the 480B is known as the Guardian and the F28F is called the Sentinel.
http://www.enstromhelicopter.com/products/images/480B_indexpage.jpg

[B Sousa]

I dunnno....but if I was out buying Aircraft for a Law Enforcement mission, I think there are better ones out there. Based on the Amount of Money, Location of Purchaser, and the Politics, it appears to me that Bell, MD and Eurocopter got caught asleep at the wheel..... or maybe there is now another rich Indonesian.......

[Flight Safety]

I dunno either...the San Antonio police bought several Schweizer 333s not long ago. When you travel to the city, you see them buzzing around all the time.

If memory serves, both of these machines have seriously derated Allison's. Does this level of derating extend the TBO, or otherwise lower the maintenance cost? Would this be an advantage to some poilice departments with smaller budgets?

[PANews]

Back in May it was announced that the Indonesian police were evaluating three proposals for small turboprops as part of a $31 million procurement of rotary and fixed-wing patrol aircraft.
The fixed wing pitch is yet to be decided but the competitors are the Casa 235, Beechcraft 1900D and PZL M-28 Skytruck.

On the helicopter side, the Eurocopter EC120, Enstrom 480B and Schweizer 333 were shortlisted. The Robinson R44 Raven II, Bell 206B, Kamov Ka-226 and Changhe Z-11 had been eliminated from the competition [by May].

The force have $14M in fixed-wing money and $17M in helicopter order money.

Manufacturers were to provide as many aircraft as they could for the money, plus training, maintenance, hangars and heliports. They anticipated the budget will allow two turboprops and 10 to 17 helicopters.

Well they got 18 turbine powered 480B helicopters.

The current fleet is 20 years old BO105s. As these are twins it looks like the Enstrom's will supplement rather than replace them.

[jerry712731]

Recently I Know of a pilot operating an F-28F who experienced a drive shaft bearing failure.
Has anybody experienced a similar problem, as in the the UK it is unheard of.
The pilot safely landed the aircraft.
After the failure, the pilot was unable to unable to identify the problem using the recommeded checks but visually was able to identify the failure of the rubber around the bearing.
The AAIB have inspected the aircraft.
It would be good to know if this was start of a new issue or a known problem
JJ

[Up & Away]

see your private messages

[Spaced]

Hey guys just after a bit of info on the 480. Anyone operated, flown, seen or been near one of these.
Anyone with rough DOCs?
Anyone know if they usually get through to service?
Thanx.

[overtorqued]

Spent some time flying one...about 350hrs in it.
Typical C-20 operation, torque gauge appears lifted right from a 206, 'cept its redlined at 72%!! as the transmission may have been lifted right out of a Festiva! We actually had a tranny give out on us in low hover...customer support left a little to be desired, but maybe thats improved.
It looks heaps faster than it is, 90kts on a good cool night but had some interesting quirks. As you approached Max Q in flight, you knew that you were approaching 90kts because the airframe twisted in such a way that the passenger door would 'pop' open with a distracting change of pressure! and you knew that 90kts had been reached when the pilots door would 'pop' open as well!
Its a machine that could get you stuck into a confined area as it really couldn't pull the skim off a rice pudding.
The handling, despite being unboosted, was very good and predictable but there was one 'gotchya' in the collective. While at flight idle, it would tend to creep upwards, sometimes rather abruptly.....never forget to friction it down should you need to take your hand off it!!!...I don't know whether it was particular to our machine, or characteristic of the type but was a dangerous quirk.
The auto rotative characteristics were wonderful. Very forgiving, lots of inertia...really no excuse for not keeping the greasy side down!
Great visibilty in all flight regimes, plenty of tail rotor authority, very good adverse wind characteristics.

Hightlights - easy to handle, fairly smooth and quiet
Great autorotative handling
Lots of tailrotor ( but could really be just lack of Q!)
Reliable powerplant....the C-20 is topped to about
240? hp....should easily run to TBO
Fairly inexpensive to operate and purchase

Downsides - Needs more ummmmphh (a better tranny, which I
believe has been addressed in newer models to a
certain extent)
Relatively unimpressive cruise speed
Airframe weakness
Customer support
Exhaust is under the belly....extreme fire hazard
during off-site landings and is prone to cracks
Heater was weak for Canadian winters.

Hope this helps!....insofar as DOC's go....well i jusat flew 'er and fueled 'er.....but I think you could count on about 60% of a 206

[ppheli]

overtorqued - was that a standard 480, or the later 480B model. One would assume that the B model may be higher spec than the original, but you never know!

[TOT]

After reading the earlier post, I would like to add a few facts in defence of the EN480. I have flown just about every 480 in the UK, including the earliest one as well as all the latests 480B'S.
Just like every other product in the world,you will occasionally have a fault that needs attention. However I can catagorically state that all of the 480's are the EASIEST, MOST FORGIVING, EASIEST TO LAND, and least likely to "BITE YOU BACK" than any of the other twenty or so types that I fly!!!
480: MTOW 2850LBS, TORQUE 66.5PSI MAX 125 Knots
48OB :3000 LBS.VNE TORQUE 74.5 PSI MAX 125 KNOTS, Passengers total 4 adults, or 5 smaller ones. USUAL CRUISE 100 KNOTS, Light load 110 knots.
ALWAYS lands LEVEL(B206 DOESN'T!)
Brilliant spot turns on windy days 35 knots!!! B206 17 knots!!
Will land on STEEPER sloping ground than any other heli!
SLOWER ROD in auto than anything else!!
Cheapest turbine to operate!!
22 gallons per hour average.
Last 3 yrs I have flown them approxiametley 500 hrs., major breakdowns:NONE, minor breakdowns: tail rotor gearbox oilseal leaking, faulty engine oil pressure gauge, radio interference on 480B caused by maingear box electric cooler pump motor.

FAULTS:
Very early ones have poor door fasteners
Very early one have cyclic shake about 95-100knots
Collective can "want to rise" if not adjusted properly.

[overtorqued]

I was flying a very early model. As mentioned above, I believe the transmission was uprated and maybe some other improvements. Lets hope they solved the frame-flexing!

[overtorqued]

Glad to hear about other operator experiences....they're a pretty rare bird in Canda.
As stated, I'll concure on the flying characteristics, they are very nice and forgiving. The machine is very stable in the hover and has heaps of tailrotor authority. I would agree that it's the least likely helicopter that I've flown to 'bite you back' . I did see 100kts once.....but I also had 300-400 fpm ROD....and the bad guys were still pulling away from us! Possibily our torque pressure reading was not accurate, but we did re-check it more than once. For our machine to see 125kts we'd of had to find a hard point for the JATO bottle!:E
The door latch problem was never solved but it did make a great secondary torque indicator!
:uhoh:
The major 'breakdown' we did have was the tranny letting go in low hover....and I thank the lord for his mercies everyday!

[Spaced]

Thanx for the info guys, much appreciated.

[md 600 driver]

i must agree with tot[who has also flown my 480s] i have owned 2 x 480s 1 s/h and 1 new

and have nearly 500 hrs on them i found them a joy to fly ,safe and very reasonable in cost ,the bills i got were substantially less than some of my friends 206/500/341s

parts wernt that bad and the doors they were a problem but when the modded doors from enstrom came i didnt have a problem at all

enstrom staff take time to speak with you ,they help out if you have a problem and a vist to the factory is a must i bought a new 480 they treated me as if i had bought the factory great company great people , and a fantastic product ,[i have also had 4 piston enstroms too ] sadly i wanted more seats so i changed otherwise i would have stayed with the product.

note to my knowledge no person has ever died in a accident in a enstrom product in the uk [europe too i think]


steve atherton
N485A
GOSKP
GBPOZ
GOSWA
GOSAB

[widgeon]

OT I assume you were the pilot of the york region police machine . Any idea if it is still parked at Fort Erie ?.
How are they doing with their new machine ?.

Edited due to errors :-

[overtorqued]

Not sure where it is now, and not even sure how the new program is going. Silverline lost the contract....it went to National and thats the last I heard of it.
Flew the 480 for about 6 mos, long enough to get pretty familiar with it and like I said, nice bird, but needed more ummpphh...
Glad to hear the door issue has been resolved in later models.....sure got our attention the first couple of times it happened inflight!

[Banjo George]

Noticed a posting under the 'widowmakers' thread re. the Enstrom.

Anyone got any pro / con views on the Enstroms ?

Cheers, BeeGee

[Leftpedal]

Never been in one myself but my instructor hated them ever since the donkey on his let go (hey Im picking up this lingo eh?) in the mountains. He made a perfect auto but never trusted the things after that. I never did hear what caused the engine failure.

[md 600 driver]

i have had a f28a,f28c,f280fx,f28f,and 2 x 480s i found them all to be inexpensive safe helicopters
relaiable and over all nodody has ever died in one in the uk and we have lots over here

steve

[rotornut]

Niagara/Pan-Air Helicopters of Metcalfe, Ontario had a small fleet of F28Fs back in the 70s and early 80s, before they were sold. According to the owner at that time, the machines gave excellent service -sightseeing in the summer and instructing in the off-season.
He said during the whole time they had them they only had one mid-air mechanical problem which necessitated a precautionary landing.
However, turbocharging apparently shortens the life of engine.

[Flingwing207]

In my limited experience with the 280C, I found it to be safe and predictable in flight. It was also demanding maintenance-wise, but if you took good care of it, it took good care of you. Drag dampers could be a source of irritation, but the only engine-stopper in the aircraft I was involved in came from a failed fuel-injection system.

When using it for training, the CFI must watch boost and RPM carefully, and monitor EGT and CHT as well, otherwise stuck and failed valves are likely (I saw one of those).

However, there's a very solid feeling to the aircraft, and they auto very nicely. The turbocharger is great in the mountains, and the ship is comfy for two and luggage.

[pa42]

Many years ago we got a corporate demo of a turbocharged model to park alongside our f/w jet. Corporate honchos were distinctly UNimpressed by sea level slow speeds with limited weight while turbocharger boosted engine in struggle to stay in the air. Conclusion (cheap shot) was that all that sexy streamlined bodywork weighed so much the machine couldn't get out of its own way. Certainly there wasn't much reserve power, and it appeared that maintenance would be a bear.

But at that time (1987) the Pasadena police department had a sizeable fleet of Enstroms and seemed perfectly happy with them. And it probably wasn't the sexy lines that did it. So we probably didn't give it a fair chance.

(The winner with the corp. honchos was the AS305 at $2 M; not exactly in the same class.)

[Jed A1]

Flingwing207 has it right.

Built well. Flies well. Loads of room.

Can be a maintenance headache if not looked after well.

[RDRickster]

I didn't like the F28C, but the 280FX is pretty nice ship to fly. VERY, I mean EXTREMELY, stable in flight. In fact, with the trim set right you can take your hands of the cyclic and change course by shifting your weight in the cabin (not recommended - just an observation). Auto's are relatively smooth, but it's a little different with that "boat-like" fuselage because it catches a lot of air.

Furthermore, the transmission was made from an old Chevy (I think) and the design hasn't changed much. One of the major CONs is that you have to send the transmission to the factory for any major maintenance or overhaul... they don't allow that job to be completed in the field.

Also, the lamiflex seems to be troublesome for some folks. That, plus the higher maintenance and the difficulty in getting a really good track and balance may lead you to other manufacturers. Anyway, it is a very stable platform and you can do cross-country's in the 280FX for days and days without killing your spine.

[Head Turner]

I am a fan of the Enstroms. Good, solid and ideal for trips around the UK. Two up and luggage and I mean not the piddly stuff that's squeezed into a Robbo.
Good auto as good as or better than the 206/47.
Lamaflex bearings mean that when on the ground the collective lever needs to be set at mid way up. Turbo chargers need plenty of cooling/stabilising temps before shutting down.
F28 trim is a problem but this was sorted on the 280. In the F28 hovering needed cyclic muscle to hold position.

[Banjo George]

Thanks for posts.

So, better than the R22 or 44 for a novice learner type ? Or is the Schweizer better ?

Bee Gee

[rotorboater]

I am happy enough with my 280c, it has more room than the robbo 44 in the front and can lift me (100kg) and a similar passenger with full fuel and luggage.

Pros - Pleanty of power and not calander lifed
Cons - 1ltr - min fuel consumption

[Flight Safety]

BG, I think if you're going to fly an R22 or R44, you should train on an R22 (or R44), as the Enstrom is a much more forgiving ship for the low time pilot. The Enstrom is also more practical (i.e. carrying a load and going somewhere) than the Schweizer, although I think the Schweizer is an excellent training ship. I want a 280fx as my first helicopter, but a late F28 might be a good choice as well.

[George Semel]

I use to fly an F-28 A way back in 1983. As I recall it was not a bad helicopter. We did have a lot of Lamaflex berrings go bad. I think that was a tracking problem at the time. We also had a F-28c as well. As I remember they performed pretty good in the hill for what we were doing with them.

[Ascend Charlie]

Only limited time in the machine, but I HATED every minute of it. For a repetetive job like film work (lots of stops and starts) it was a mongrel to start when it was hot. It shook, it rattled, the fake woodgrain plastic and the dashboard looked like an old car (a Leyland P76, actually) and the dipstick was the worst design I have ever seen.

It needs 29" MAP just to hold level flight, so if the turbocharger quits you are out of the sky, even with the rest of the engine working.

There was a fatality in Sydney in the 80s when a junior pilot on a photo shoot ran out of pedal in a hover and spiralled into the deck. Another Enstrom made a spectacular landing in a front yard when the engine stopped due to "fuel contamination" - it was contaminated with air!

Glad to never fly one again.

[Drooping Turns]

Enjoyed my time in the Enstrom. Very solid feeling machine. I flew the F28A out of Fresno in 78. Very high rotor inertia. Autoed like a dream. The comparison above to the B-206 is right on. The A model, without a turbo, was underpowered anywhere but sea level. It was imperative to lead collective pull with throttle or you were going to loose rotor Rpms. Once lost, and at full throttle, you had to "milk" the collective to get em back ever so slowly.

Having talked to the factory lately, they claim to have extended the life of lamiflex bearings significantly. No AD's or bothersome service bulletins. No calender parts.
I'd buy one again.

Fly safe,

DT

[Flight Safety]

GB, I wanted to add the following two points.

First, Enstrom released a newly redesigned main rotor drive shaft that has a thicker wall, which cured the previous track and balance problems. I understand that new machines come with this shaft, and it can be fitted on older machines. Maybe you can find a ship that has this new rotor shaft installed.

Second, maintenance on an Enstrom can be a little tricky, as some of the procedures (drive alignment procedures in particular) are very precise. If you're thinking of buying one, be sure a good maintenance shop is located nearby, staffed with folks who know what they're doing with Enstroms.

[Gaseous]

I've got a 1975 F28A which I have had a couple of years. I love it.

What kills Enstroms is water. ALL the bearings in mine were shot due to water ingress and corrosion. Lamiflexes in the UK are 5 year items (unless this has changed recently) and are expensive. $1000 ish each. Tracking is not a problem provided the rotor head is in good condition and the blades are reasonably matched. most older aircraft seem to have a random assortment of blades so if it won't track a blade swap may be the answer. Used blades are cheap and available and unlifed. Dampers can be a problem but mine were fixed and are now perfect. After a thorough refurbishment it is pretty reliable with no significant faults this year and only a failed starter last year. It is slow with cruise at 80 mph (not knots) and certainly not overpowered but provided kept under max weight is not a problem at low level in UK summer. I installed a graphic engine monitor and balanced fuel injectors so it will run according to John Deakins principles - well lean of peak - and at that burns around 8 imperial galls per hour and is cool and clean. Not that I do of course as the POH says mixture full rich at all times.;) .

Hot starts are not too bad althought the POH method is not the best in my experience.
It can be trimmed to fly hands off and can be steered by simply leaning in the seat. I do not find the controls in the least heavy. Anyone buying an old one should be prepared to spend a lot of time and money to make it right. When that is done it will be a cheap,safe helicopter.

[Billywizz]

to MD 600 driver,

Lots over here??? there are only three schools to my knowledge in the UK that train on them and there aren't that many about, last I heard there were only about 23 in the country. 480 was nice to fly but the rest were uncomfortable and hard work on the old biceps.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hey Billy Whizz,

Up here in Lanky we have Barton Helis they use em, and sell em, if it was nearer to me that EGNH I would have started on Enstroms not R22's, been in a couple of Enstroms and find them far more stable and slightly quieter than the R22 and just as flyable, although never out in any bad wx with one, quiet a few people who own them are in the locality and seem to enjoy them
Peter R-B
Vfr

[Gaseous]

Billy,

There are 76 on the UK register in varying states of airworthiness. There seems to be a bit of a revival going on at the moment . I know of a couple of dead ones being restored. People are realising that they are actually quite good when restored. Most of the UK fleet is ancient and they got a bad name as a lot were left out and neglected which is a recipe for trouble and expense. (If you go to Barton there are usually 6 or more standing in the rain - and it will be raining)

If you have any doubts about what they will do, just watch Dennis Kenyon in a 21 year old F28.

Peter, In bad WX they are much, much more stable than an R22.

Give me a good Enstrom F28 rather than a R22 anyday.

[The Nr Fairy]

Check the blades carefully - you may find one which has not been back to an approved shop for repair after delamination. I hope it's been destroyed by now . . .

[Gaseous]

Nr Fairy,
There are lots of repared blades out there, and field repairs under 3 inches long are allowed according to my engineer. I don't have any repairs on my blades now although when I got the helicopter it had just passed a C of A with a large, very obvious trailing edge repair.:uhoh: That blade has now been scrapped. I have experienced a large delamination in flight. It caused moderate vibration but only when the lever was lowered. Blades are lifed 'on condition'.

[CountryMember]

I had an F28A followed by an F280C. Both machines were great to fly although the uncorrolated throttle made an overspeed easy. The big problem with the Enstrom was the maintenence costs. I was told that I could run an H500 for what my Enstrom was costing me.

I then bought an H500C and after 15 years they were right, the costs were about the same and obviously there was no comparison on the performance of the 2 machines.

The Enstrom is a safe crashworthy machine that has no time life limitations, but I think engineering and perfomance wise the R22 and R44 are supierior.

[md 600 driver]

you must have had a very poor enstrom and a exeptional 500
but if it worked out for you thats great


regards steve
do i know you

[Ga. Chopper]

It needs 29" MAP just to hold level flight, so if the turbocharger quits you are out of the sky, even with the rest of the engine working.

That may be true if hovering at higher gross weights with calm winds and hot outside temperatures, but that is not true for forward flight at speeds above ETL. If the turbo fails in a hover or prior to accelerating thru ETL, the ship would slowy settle to the ground. With full fuel and two people onboard, I can set 23" to 25" MAP and easily do a "run-on" takeoff, be airborne once thru ETL and climbout conservatively.

I normally use 28" to 29" MAP in forward flight for a cruise power setting which yeilds about 95 MPH, that's only about 1" to 2" of boost above ambient.

In the traffic pattern or for slower flight, I set about 23'"to 25" MAP which yeilds about 70 to 80 MPH. No turbocharger required at these power settings, it's operating just as a normally aspirated engine does without any turbo-boost at all.

For a desent or approach I set about 18" MAP which yeilds about 70 MPH with a descent rate of 500 fpm.

Bottom line: if the turbo quits, the ship "WILL NOT fall out of the sky! But transitioning back into a hover prior to landing will have to be accomplished quickly or a run-on landing at low airspeed will also work fine. I frequently practice this non-normal procedure just in case and it is no big deal at all.

it was a mongrel to start when it was hot
Sounds like there may have been a problem with the fuel servo/idle mixture settings or an improper starting procedure may have been used. If any of the "foil" wrapping was missing from the fuel lines it will cause vapor lock to occur during a hot engine start procedure. I have shut mine down and re-started it repeatingly when it's hot without any glitches, such as when I have tracked the rotors system or refueled.

I didn't like the F28C, but the 280FX is a pretty nice ship to fly.

Sounds like something was wrong with the F28C you flew, the F28C flies much the same as the 280FX; other than it has 20 less horsepower and more drag due to the wider cabin. Since all piston model Enstroms use the same rotor/drive systems, they all fly pretty much the same. The only major component difference between the two piston models is the forward cabin section. If you compare a F28C to a 280C or a F28F to a 280 FX, (apples to apples comparision), you will see they fly almost the same except for a small difference in top speed, (5 mph), due to the difference in frontal area drag. Also due to the lower drag of the cabin, the 280C Shark and 280 FX will glide a little better during decents or autorotations. Even the 480B tubine flies vey similar the piston models and uses many of the same parts in it's rotor/drive systems.

Furthermore, the transmission was made from an old Chevy (I think) and the design hasn't changed much.

This is not true! Externally, it may "looK" like half of the rear end differenitial out of a large truck, but in no way does it resemble or operate like any automotive transmission. This is not an experiemental aircraft, the FAA would not certify a design like that. Besides, the structural loads, gearing ratios and torque would not work in this application. It is amusing how many myths are floating around out there!

Most of the other problems (i.e. lamiflex bearings, tracking, etc.) have been resolved over the years. I have not experienced any of the issues or problems that some of the others have posted here. I am not affiliated with Enstrom in any capacity, other than as an owner-operator, and as a factory trained/certified mechanic. I have owned my F28 for almost 5 years, have flown several hundred hours in it, it has been provided me with safe and reliable operation.

The maintainence is similar to a Schweizer which is not as good as the Robinsons. But I think the Enstrom is better in most of the other areas of flying, especially safety. If you check the NTSB accident and fatality statistics, you will find it is the safest in it's class.

As far as the controls feeling heavy, that goes away after several hours of learning how to properly use the trim, then it becomes rock solid with hands off stability! I can also take my hand off the collective in forward flight and not touch it again untill it's time to change the power setting for the approach and landing.

I got my Private pilot add-on in the R-22 and think it's a great trainer. It is more econonmical to operate and has been great for the flight schools. Since then, I have received the Commercial add-on rating in my Enstrom and should soon have the CFI add-on as well. All the various types of Autorotations in the Enstrom are very safe and easy. These excellent flight characteristics have vastly improved my skills and confidence.

I feel safer in an Enstrom than in an R-22, but the R-44 Raven is the only other piston helicopter that I would feel just as safe in.
:ok:

[Amazon man]

I am considering purchasing an F28/F28 Shark helicopter with the intention of completing my PPL/H and then building hours towards a CPL/H.

Is their anybody who would be interested in taking a half share or perhaps third share in a helicopter to be based in Hampshire somebody with land or hangerage would be especially welcome.

Alternatively is their anybody already owning an Enstrom in the South UK who is considering offering shares.

Many thanks

Please no comments with reference to pros and cons of Enstrom i've done my research and am quite happy with my choice.

[jerry712731]

Where can I get an Enstrom F28F conversion done in the south of England ?
I have looked through the relevant CAA documents and it seems to be a very rare aircraft listed by TRTOs.
Only one organisation seems to be current and they are not in the south
Any ideas would be welcome

[outofwhack]

Pls forgive a first posting from an Enstrom owner wannabe.

I'd really like to know what to look for when purchasing a Enstrom. I have in mind a low houred 72/73 F28A. Comments please.

Questions in my mind are:

Is the big gotcha blade delamination?

I always thought delamination was a fault of laminated structures but aren't Enstrom blades all metal? Where are the laminations?

If delamination occurs what does it look like, how much can be tolerated and how much are new replacement blades and are there options to get hold of low time used blades for southern hemisphere use ;)

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good morning OOW


Why are you asking about Delam, when by your own admission you dont know what it is, the only sound advice I would suggest is to seek out the service of a good engineer.

If you are just asking then it is very difficult for anyone to give youi sufficient information by reading here on this thread, the engineer is THE ONLY SAFE ROUTE.

IF HAVE ANY DOUBT'S about your Enstrom PLEASE do not fly it until it is checked out

WE do not want to read about any accident with any helicopter if it can be avoided

Peter R-B

Vfrpilotpb

[outofwhack]

Do you always bite the heads off newbies? How patronising!

I never said I dont know what delamination is and I didnt say I owned an Enstrom. I do know what it is [from many years with composite fixed wing aircraft] and I am merely looking around for a good second hand helicopter [and Enstroms appear to technically outclass other types in their class].

I'd really like to learn as much as I can so that I can spot a good one.

Certain people on PPRUNE always seem to assume their fellow aviators are stupid.

You suggest an engineer is the only safe route.
When considering buying a house you dont need a licenced engineer to spot if it is falling down. You simply dont buy the house. Do you also suggest paying 200 quid for a building inspectors report before you do your first recce.
You pay the licenced engineer for his professional opinion when you have done your own homework and satisfied yourself and before you have paid over the dosh.

I am looking for useful advice rather than the _____ obvious.

Like telltale signs of delamination on particaulr types.
How long you've got when its spotted?
How much, if any, is tolerated?

OOW

[Aesir]

I´m not a mechanic however I learned that if you suspect blade delamination a quick check could be done by doing a "tap" test, using a US quarter (25 cent) and knocking the blade listening for hollow sound!

In regard to you asking about metal blades and why delamination applies I suspect that the blades are glued together in the same way as R-22 blades and therefore subject to delamination.

May I also suggest that you look at H-300 and R-22 if you are looking for a piston helicopter, both very reliable.

[Maverick Laddie]

Aesir :

I do hope that 25 cent piece you recommend in your check for delamination has been calibrated. !!!:ok:

[ShyTorque]

Does a 25 cent piece work on european helicopter blades - or must one use euros? They are right-hand thread, of course.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good Afternoon OOW


I am sorry if you think I have bitten off your head, or I was being patronising, I was trying to impart into your mind the acute seriousness of what you were asking about.

Obviously you already know the answer to the question you pose, by the way you phrased your reply in your second post, plus you have jumped in on full red alert .

Remember always, Helicopters are totally different than FW craft, and will bite the entire body of any unwary pilot be they high time or low time .

I stick with what I said earlier, If you are going to buy any used helicopter,or you already have one off your mate, it should have a full service history and be checked by a fully competant engineer. if that sort of comment winds you up again, well then what can we say!

PeterR-B

Vfr

[Flingwing207]

And they wonder why so many helicopter pilots are alcoholics...

This is a generic response - with 5.4 and four preflights in a 280C, I don't claim to be an expert on that particular aircraft.

The blades delaminate at the trailing edge, where the metal is bonded. They can also delam at the root. While the delam itself isn't usually immediately critical, the problem is first: corrosion - water gets into the blade, and sooner or later weakens the structure sufficiently to cause failure. The water can also enlarge the delam, especially in winter if it freezes.

The second problem is that the delam changes the aerodynamics of the blade. Of course this problem could also be a blessing in disguise, as it provides a possible warning - vibration due to an out-of-track blade.

The aforementioned "tap test" can help find a delam, but is in no way guaranteed to. The best way that I know of is to be fairly religious about cleaning the blades (with a non-corrosive cleaner of course), and visually inspecting them. Any new rotor vibration is to be taken very seriously! If you have the patience, use a magnifying glass to inspect (say every X hours in service).

Finally, as was previously suggested, start your ownership by having the blades inspected by an A&P who is well versed in the Enstrom, and be sure you have the accurate history of the blades. Since they have no TIS limitations, it behooves you to know "where those blades have been"!

[Heliport]

Peter

Your advice did give the impression you assumed Outofwhack knows nothing. (I know that wasn't intentional.)

All he's doing is asking for advice on 'things to look for' so as to reject some machines without going to the expense of an engineeer - not planning to buy without an engineer's inspection.

Heliport

[outofwhack]

Thank you.
Thats the kind of information I need. Much appreciated!

Albeit a newbie to rotary, I know enough about fixed wing aviation to know that engineers are not supermen and nobody should give their trust implicitly.

Althought I am a new CPLH and an old PPLA, I believe that one doesn't need to pass engineers exams to look along a blade and spot abnormalities. Only to legally condemn them!
Don't get me wrong.
I have the deepest respect for time served, authentic and honest engineers, who know their stuff. Bravo! But there are some that wing it! [like the engineer who was unfamiliar with my wooden fixed wing aerobatic plane at the last 100 hourly and caused many thousands of dollars unnecessary damage to it].

Anyway, I am bored of fixed wing now I have tasted helicopters. Has anyone got any pluses or minuses about Enstrom F28A.

Yours faithfully,

OOW

[Aesir]

Maverick laddie & Shy torque:

Hehe..:O I guess its not really absolutely necessary to use a Quarter, I guess its just more a custom.

Outofwhack:

Im not really very familiar with the F28, however it is my feeling from the many F28´s I´ve seen sitting in hangars around that they are pretty difficult to keep in flyable condition.

Sometimes its cheaper in the long run to buy a newer model helicopter like the FX280, S-300 or R-22/44.

At the very least if you opt for a low cost 1971 or around that F28 be prepared to have an expensive hangar queen IMHO!

However I´m no speicalist in the F28, there has to be someone out there that knows more.

I have heard good things about the Enstrom, but the 15 hrs that I have in Enstrom were not that good. I had a lot of mechanical malfunctions during my IFR training in the FX280 Shark Enstrom I trained in. Out of those 15 hrs I flew there was never a single hour without some problems! However I have known a pilot with lot more hrs in them who really liked them and never had problems.

[Vfrpilotpb]

OOW

A few weeks ago a thread existed that was discussing the merits of Crashworthiness, it was started due to some incident with another R22, from the outcome of that thread it stood out quite well that the Enstrom was or seemed to be the more crashworthy of the bunch of small helis.

I have flown both types and to be really honest whilst the Enstrom are not that popular in the UK, they do seem far more sturdy than the others of the same sort of money, but a lot of people have quite a lot of distrust in the engine dept, most of the Cpls that I know always make the comment, that if you fly an Enstrom, it is either just about to, or just had some sort of engine problem. But the ones I have flown have been OK, and feel solid when compared with the R22, which has its own problems

PeterR-B

Vfr

[oldbeefer]

Having flown most pistons, I would rate the Enstrom highly - very robust, superb EOL performance. Maybe a bit pricy, but a great training aircraft compared to Robbos, IMHO.

[GLSNightPilot]

OOW, I know nothing of Enstroms, but about the blade delamination -
All metal blades that I know of are laminated. Solid metal blades would be far too heavy and far too expensive to mill. Rotor blades have a metal spar at or near the leading edge, with a honeycomb of some sort behind that, tapering to the trailing edge. The metal skin is laminated to the honeycomb, and to itself at the trailing edge. If the bond separates, the strength of the entire structure is compromised. The usual way to detect this delamination is, as mentioned, tapping the skin with a coin. Be careful, though. I've seen blades that could be dented with my knuckle, and taps with a plastic screwdriver handle or similar completely ruined them. If the delamination is severe enough, you may be able to see it visually, by looking along the blade at a very low angle, and seeing a slight bubble. If you can see it, the blade is likely worthless.

[md 600 driver]

if you send me your emailaddress i will send you the page out of the manualMAINTENANCE MANUAL
but for starters
I. Inspection and Rejection Criteria for Bond Line Corrosive Delamination
(1) Main Rotor Blade
Inspect edge of all bond lines for separations, visually and coin tap. If inspection reveals evidence of delamination, depth may be checked on trailing edge and doublers with plastic shim stock .001" in thickness. Do not use shim stock to check spar to leading edge delamination, COIN TAP ONLY.
CAUTION: Do not use anything other than shim stock to check depth of lamination.
(a) Coin tap detectable bond separations at the skin-spar joint in excess of limits in Figure 4-1 and 4-2 are cause for rejection.
(b) Visual or coin tap detectable bond separations at the blade trailing edge of more than 3.00 inches in length or deeper than .25 inch are cause for rejection. (See Figures 4-3 and 4-4)
(c) Any bond separations on the doubler closer than 2.00 inches to the tip, or more than 3.00 inches in length, or greater than .125 inch in depth are cause for rejection.
(2) Tail Rotor Blade
Using the same method as in Part (I) (1), inspect all bond lines.
(a) Bond separations on the trailing edge deeper than .050 inch or more than 2.00 inches in length are cause for rejection.
(b) Any bond separation on the stainless steel cap more than 2.00 inches from the tip or greater in depth than .062 inch is cause for rejection.
(c) Any bond separation on the doublers closer than 2.00 inches to the tip of the doubler under which it appears, or greater than 1.00 inch in length, or deeper than .062 inch in depth is cause for rejection.
NOTE: Delamination as noted in (1) and (2) which are lesser are acceptable, if procedures in paragraph J are performed.
J. Preliminary Repair Procedures for Acceptable Blade Bond Delamination to Arrest Corrosive Action Prior to Refinish
(1) Skin to Spar Bond Sealing Procedure (Main Rotor Blade)
Separations smaller than the limits shown in Figures 4-1 and 4-2 may be sealed using the following procedure.
MM-4-35

i have had 6 enstroms from a f28a to a 480 turbine i found them to be a safe and reliable helicopters ive not had a engine problem or any other major fault and i have over 1000 hrs on enstroms they are also very enconomical to run

there are lots of enstrom engineers out there if in doubt ask one of them
regards steve

[Heliport]

Helpful post Steve.


Outofwhack
If you're serious about getting an Enstrom, you might want to speak to Dennis Kenyon at Shoreham.

[helicopter-redeye]

Do you always bite the heads off newbies? How patronising!

I think that was a bit unfair. Peter's responses are always very balanced and biased towards safety.

For whichever type, get an INDEPEDENT engineer to review and assess the machine prior to contract.

There are not so many Enstroms in the UK, certainly compared to R22/ R44. There must be a reason for there being so many R44 machines compared to the Enstrom piston machines (take the turbines out of the equation for now for simplicity).

Worth looking at the relative maintenance costs and revenue potential if looking to see time as well. If few people have them them less likely to find high hours (safe) pilots to fly them and less maintenance operations to service them.


:ok:

[Gaseous]

I have a 28A which is a good reliable machine. Maintenance costs are a bit higher than an R22 but that is probably because it is 30 years old . Performance is about the same as a 22 but there is the extra seat. There are quite a few second hand blades around with good history at prices which make Robbie owners green. I got one a few months ago for £1100. Reason for the change was a 3 inch spar delamination which was not dramatic. just a bit of vibration. There is no honeycomb in Enstrom blades. Just air. They are not lifed, except on condition.

It has just done a full year with no days out of service except scheduled maitenance. It flew 121 times in the year. a total of 55 hours. Not much but it is only used for fun.

[Flight Safety]

OOW, I don't own an Enstrom and I haven't flown one yet, but I've been looking at them for some time.

There are a couple of mods that would be nice to have on an F28A, if you can find a machine that has them. First, Enstrom makes a new thicker walled main rotor drive shaft, that eliminates the touchy track and balance problems of earlier Enstroms. New Enstroms are delivered with the new rotor shaft, and earlier machines can be retrofitted with it. Unless this has been changed, the typical unmodified F28A with the older thin wall rotor shaft, will have the historic touchy track and balance issues.

Second, I understand that earlier Enstroms can sometimes have issues with the tail rotor drive bearings. This has been corrected on new machines, and again earlier machines can be retrofitted with the new bearing kit assembly.

Also, I understand that Enstroms can sometimes be tricky to service, and most of the drive system alignments have to be done with precision. So when shopping for an Enstrom, be sure to also shop for an excellent Enstrom engineer to service the machine, because you'll need him. An Enstrom that is properly setup and serviced will be a safe, fun, low cost, and trouble free machine to own. An Enstrom that is not properly setup, will be a major headache to own.

[rotorboater]

I have had no real big problems with my 280C and found it reasonably inexpensive to operate.
There are a few 280 models for sale at reasonable prices 50 - 80K Sterling and I would think about going for one of these if you can, it has the turbo which helps in hot and high (although even that struggled to get my fat ar$e off in the middle of summer:rolleyes: ) and has a lot more power. The early 28a can be a bit short of power in the summer or 2 up and probably never goes 3 up.
The only other downside is the increase in fuel consumtion over the R22 but you can get better than 1 litre/min by leaning it.

[sandy helmet]

outofwhack...

I would recommend you talk to owners - I have one guy you can contact - he has been operating them commercially for some time now and can give you a good idea of what to expect and look for.

[email protected]

[goaround7]

I used to instruct in Enstroms and then in R22s and R44s.

Enstrom advantages:

Turbo model can get you out of dangerous situation with extra power (esp at altitude);

easier to learn to fly; good preparation for more advanced training eg. night rating, IR, turbine helis;

Can do autos and tr failures to the ground every time;

Very rugged and tough; crashworthy;

No weight limit on seat and plenty room for 2 (cramped for 3);

Looks like a proper helicopter;

Significant boot space - weekend bag for 2 no problem


Enstrom disadvantages:

More expensive and fiddly to maintain; blades difficult to keep right and lamiflex bearings esp expensive;

SLOW, SLOW, SLOW esp round nosers;

More difficult to adapt afterwards to Robbie, esp 22

Detractors would say that it has to be able to auto to the ground in practice because you are going to have an engine failure but others say that's more due to dodgy maintenance in our neck of the woods...

[widgeon]

http://www.shephard.co.uk/rotorhub/Default.aspx?Action=745115149&ID=dd788bdb-5d6f-49bb-a846-26f7caed1724

Is the 480 4 times better than the 120 , the numbers would suggest LOL.

Is there any one out there that has flown both ?.

I think the selection process for the basic trainer helicopter , won by the 206B , left a sour taste in all the other contenders mouths . The winning helicopter did not meet the specs in several important areas but was still selected .

[alouette]

It is a funny notion perhaps but I think the rift between Enstrom and EADS is based on the fact that France in particular did not partake in this Iraq thingy. And lets face it Eurocopter constantly presents new techology to customers. As for the flying characteristics; I have flown the 480 on a few occasions and I might be wrong but I guess the EC 120 has a slightly bigger cabin though unfortunately can't say much about the EC 120.

This might not contribute to your question but it is perhaps a thought worth thinking of...

What I still cannot understand is the fact that the major helicopter manufacturers in North America seem to be sleeping at this stage in regards to competition. Because Bell Helicopter builds supreme aircraft as well as Sikorsky and MD Helicopters, and each and everyone of them is toppled by EADS. They must have a more agressive marketing strategy. And the U.S. government goes out there and contracts a foreign manufacturer for the supply of aircraft. Where is the spirit gone "Buy American"? Is this tactic simply to put even with Europe to create a less hostile attitude? But when I look around everyone flies Squirrels, the EC 135/145, etc... EADS obviously found a better way to present its products and access customers.

[skydriller]

....but we didnt.... is the way that whole article reads, if anyone has read it. The question begs....so exactly why didnt you then? Maybe thats why they lost out?

Just an observation.

Regards, SD..

[Dave_Jackson]

alouette,

I believe that you may have answered your own question.

" ... the major helicopter manufacturers in North America ....must have a more aggressive marketing strategy.
Where is the spirit gone 'Buy American'? "


IMHO, American manufactures should have been spending more money in their Engineering departments and less in their Marketing departments.

The European VTOL manufactures will eventually see competition, but it will be coming from the Far East.

[NickLappos]

alouette said "EADS obviously found a better way to present its products and access customers."

Not so obvious to me, alouette. The tired old Super Puma line is losing ground to the S-92, I think. 55 contracts for the 92, vice ?? for the EC-225 says an awful lot.

[offshoreigor]

Hey Nick!

You know your'e not supposed to advertise for Sikorsky on this site! LOL!

From one old SK driver to another, Merry Christmas!

Cheers,

:ok: OffshoreIgor :ok:

[Benet]

Simple. The French machine is much better-looking!

Benet :cool:

[Head Turner]

American products have got behind the times and when the catching up is achieved the products will be acceptable.
Just take the Bell 430 as an example. Lovely looking ship with good cockpit and cabin. Systems are old technology. Good engines and rotor head. Tail rotor is vunerable to damage as it sits close to the ground. The ship is heavy and has small fuel tanks. Therefore is suffers from poor payload. It's noisy. Then compare it to the EC155. Modern technology. The commonality of the VEMD, great idea.

[Billywizz]

I'm rated on both enstroms (tho not current) and regularly fly EC120 and I'll take the latter anyday of the week. Head turner got it right with his comments about 'old technology'.
The visibily is so much better in 120 and the law enforcement agency wanted right seat PIC capability, the 120 can be flown PIC from either seat.

Dave jackson
I beleive the airframe of the 120 is made in the far east as eurocopter want to explore that market.

For a long the American air industries have had a huge share in the market so some healthy competition might make them improve their products.
The EC120 is the next generation of 206's but sadly Bell have sat on 30 year old technology for too long.

[Yarba]

I don't know about the Enstrom, but the comments regarding French vs American machines are very true. I regularly fly Sikorsky, Bell and Eurocopter helicopters and there's nothing to beat the Eurocopter products for flying enjoyment, much lower maintenance costs and reliability. I spent the first 21 years of my flying career flying Sikorsky or Bell and it was a revelation changing to Eurocopter helicopters. The American manufacturers rely too much on the loyalty of North American customers to American products, despite the fact that so many of them are old, old designs and technology.

I think Nick has made the point very well, because the S92 is about the only new American machine available out there, but the market for helicopters that big is pretty limited.

[NickLappos]

Yarba,
I have to (gasp!) agree on general principles that the French have shown good ingenuity and freshness in their designs. I see it in their cars, as well. Mostly due to good recent investment, and good sense of innovation, I think.

[DennisK]

Ref the above ..... first can I declare an interest.

Working from Shoreham Airport in the 70's and early 80's for that super entrepreneur, Roy Spooner, the company held the European distribution rights for the Enstrom product. I was their salesman !!

During that time, I sold 138 of the model F28.s and 280 Sharks and thelater 'dash two' series. It was then the success story of its time, before the Robinson came along and swamped it, mainly for training.

The type is a very fine machine but with some difficult areas of maintenance. Many engineers don't like the type, some won't even maintain them hence the 'Hangar Queens' around the country. But as other engineers will tell you (they know who they are and I'll name names if I'm asked !!) .... when the type is properly maintained and flown fairly regularly, it is without equal in its market.

Fast at around 100mph (VNE 117 mph) AND 11-12 gals per hour, big roomy 5 foot wide cabin, (three comfortable seats abreast) 7 cu ft, 60lb capacity luggage locker, (100lbs in the later versions) super looks (it won Fortune magazines best designed industrial product in the 70's) ...... and the later 'Greg Focella' nose on the 280 Shark made it the best looking helicopter you could buy. IMHO !! .... then terrific handling with nicely co-ordinated controls and as my old publicity blurb always said ..... the type can be trimmed to fly 'hands and feet off.' which I still demonstrate. It is fuel injected of course so no carb ice, engine failure possibilities. 40 usg fuel gives around 250 sm range. The turbo version should be leaned to give 83lb per hour fuel flow and 100mph.

Safety ? There has never been a fatality in the UK in over thirty years of operations. The type 'autorotates' almost as well as the 206. And can be safely autorotated to a full stop ground landing in training as will be demonstrated by many instructors who know the type. And it is 'aerobatic' and has twice won the the world 'freestyle' championships. You can buy an F28A model for around £40k - £45k.

In fact one could be forgiven for wondering why anyone bought anything else !!!

But now the downside! (M/R blades later !!)

1. Difficult to track except by the whizz kids above.
2. Poor payload. Usually quoted as 'underpowered' - when in fact the problem is 'overweight' Most machines have a WPS around 1650lbs. (gross on 28A 2150lbs - but can be utility certified to 2600 !!!)
3. Only 205 bhp on a standard day which at a typical weight on a 30 degree humid day needs a pilot who is really well rrpm aware. (overcome to a large extent on the later 'turbo' models) ...... but we are talking 28A models here.
4. Indifferent factory ownership from time to time, mainly masked by an enthusiastic UK distributor.
5. Engine 'overspeeds' common, hence the Lycoming C1A engine often failing to see its published 1500 hours.
6. Occasional 'chronic' starter motor failings AND starting problems with the 'shower of sparks' starting system.

There are a few more downsides but I won't list them .... but now the M/R blades.

In my view this was the cause of so many lost sales when I was actively involved. And as Steve A points out (600 Driver) (Wish you well Steve) .... he has covered the factory MM points nicely. But as a simple pilot on an initial, non engineer inspection. Yes do the 'tap' test. A tap every inch along the leading edges top and bottom listening for any 'voiding.' This will take you an hour for three blades. The SIL allowable limit is 3 inches but even if its one you are heading for replacement. Both main and tail blades here. Trainling edges for bond separation too. You can see it easily with a m-glass. The root doublers Steve has mentioned, (no voiding sound here) and if you want to know what that sounds like just tap anywhere inboard of the blade span. Its hollow!

The blades are a leading edge 'extrusion' made by 'Alcoa' alluminium and epoxy resin glue bonded at the Menominee factory. Low use, damp weather ie humidity and temp changes cause them to suffer from 'exfoliation - inter granular corrosion' This is an absolute visual thing and is often masked by the leading edge tape protection. No excessive corrosion here although it can be trimmed/filed down to MM declared limits.

So to get back to the original concept, yes take a good long look at the marque, do some initial checks as above and if you are happy and still interested GET A FULL SURVEY DONE by a type knowledgable LAE before parting with cash. Then get into bed with the same or similar engineer and let him look after it exclusively ... warts and all as they say.

There's tons more of course, but I've probably bored too many of you. But my enthusiasm for the Enstrom marque remains. Great ship and rewarding to own. Then when the pocket allows, graduate from the 28a/280 to the Turbo C and F models.

Regards to all ppruners and guests out there.

Dennis K

[Benet]

Someone in Newport has one for sale here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4514293916&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)

No bids at the time of posting...

Benet

[MightyGem]

Hi Dennis, came across your Shoreham video for the first time recently. Awesome stuff! :ok:

[Choppersquad]

anyone flying the enstrom 480 turbine.
power
speed
auto,s
running costs
resale value
agent in the uk.

any info would be helpful.

cs.

[ADS]

what are the pro's and cons in owning either of these models. I am in the midst of purchasing a 480b and I am still being told the 44 is a better option - what is the forums view on this.

what is the cost per hour on each and what about maintenance??

ADS - thanks.

[md 600 driver]

send me a pm with contact details ive had 2 480s

[Hughes500]

Buy a 500 D or E more fun cheaper to run and will outperform almost every other helicopter in the sky

[BlenderPilot]

The only non Bell product we operate is a 480B, and here are a few experiences we've had with the thing just recently,

- The thing had a defective starter from the factory which vibrated so bad it broke the starter mount and the FCU mount, fortunately the FCU didn't fall off in flight, Enstrom knows and has decided to ignore the problem.

- Just recenty the bearing inside the pulley overheated, damaging the bearing and the pulley, technicians all agree that its due to a bad design of the pulley.

- The thing just vibrates like crazy the cyclic wobbles all over the place and when this happens its difficult to work on it.

- It is very difficult to find training for this aircraft, Enstrom sent an IP to give recurrent training to us and he chopped one of the fins off, and Enstrom didn't even send an apology note, just like nothing happened.

I have never seen a helicopter require so much maintenance, I really wish the owners would just get rid of it.

[leemind]

Got to agree with H500.. Depends what you want it for of course. Taking you mother in law to lunch at the local hotel you might be better off with something more comfortable, but for fun in the sky a D or an E rocks!

They are damn fast as well, puts a JR or 480 to shame

I've seem a couple that are up for referb in Helidata so you might pick up a nice one.

[TOT]

Blenderpilot, I cannot DISAGREE with you more!!!! I have flown EVERY, YES EVERY 480/480B in the UK. I have taught just about every owner, past and present, including the 480B CAA certification flight test on behalf of the CAA. The 480/480B is without ANY doubt , the smoothest, most forgiving , will not bite you back helicopter in the world!!!!!! . With regard to operating costs, yes the H500 can be reasonable, but the 480 range is cheaper!! take fuel consumption for example, most 500's use 26/28 galls per hour, especially if fitted withC20 R2 engine. The 480's rarely use more than 21/22 gallons per hour. Now just compare that to a modern R44 using 18 gallons of avgas per hour at £1 litre, I reckon the 480 is at least 50% cheaper!!!!!!!!!. Yes 500's may go a bit faster and climb a bit faster, but try flying them in the vicinity of a few hills in 25kt winds and see how comfortable the ride is!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 480 quality of ride is by far superior to the 500, R44 and Jet Ranger. Take a look in the 480 flight manual "This aircraft has been proven to be fully controlable in winds of 40 MPH"!!!!! Take a look in the B206 flight manual "This aircraft has been proven to be fully controlable in winds of 20 MPH"!!!!! -- EXACTLY HALF!!!!!!!!!!!! Close the throtle on a H500 or R44, how long before you die? Come with me in a ENSTROM 280 and I will shut the throttle for 15 seconds before I have to lower the collective! Any R22 or R44 pilot want to compete with me??? What about low G situations? mast bumping etc? I could go on. Speak to ENSTROM owners they all love them,. Blenderpilot, I dont believe you operated your 480 in the UK? I suggest you change your maintenance company asap and get yourself some good instuctors. Just before you say it, thats just my points of view, I am not connected to ENSTROM or any other sales agency, I JUST FLY THEM!!!

[The Nr Fairy]

TOT:

I know you're enthusiastic, but I think your "!" key is stuck.

[md 600 driver]

totally agree with you TOT

pound for pound the 480 beats the r44 hands down

i should know ive had 2 480s and 5 pistons

steve

[EnstromDS]

I cannot claim a lack of interest in this subject as I am the Director of Sales for Enstrom Helicopter Corporation. I am intimately aware of the issues that have contributed to some of the "maintenance" issues with the aircraft and do not want to address those on a forum of this nature.

This aircraft has a long, reputable, history of operation in Mexico and it is interesting to note that, while the company that owns this 480B has researched the possibility of selling the aircraft, they have made it very clear that they do not want to sell this aircraft in Mexico. The reason? Because the operating costs are too low - and whoever purchased the aircraft could very easily out bid the current owner for leased time on the aircraft. The 480B simply is less expensive to operate than the Bell products that make up the rest of their fleet.

This aircraft is managed, maintained and operated by a Bell helicopter CSF and Enstrom has long maintained that there might be conflicts of interest regarding our product and the priority that is put on it when it comes to maintainence issues.

[Hughes500]

TOT

Seeing that 90% of 500's have a C20B engine in the fuel consumption will be the same ! I would challenge you on the comfort in 25 kts of wind, flight is very good and comfortable. I would also look at the risdual prices - they don't hold their money very well do they ! Hm wonder why ?
It is a shame Enstrom did not make the helicopter more attractive, lets face it it is a big 280 with excess scaffolding poles used as an undercarriage !

The 500 is a bucket load quicker than a 480, havent recently seen a 480 go at 130 kts straight and level with power to spare, unless it was going down hill !!!!!!!!!!!

Biting yet tot ?

[212man]

H500,
I don't know much about Enstroms or Hughes', but I do know that saying they ought to have the same fuel consumption because they have the same engine is a little wide of the mark!

[Graviman]

"Come with me in a ENSTROM 280 and I will shut the throttle for 15 seconds before I have to lower the collective!"

Wowsers! How does this work? There has got to be some kind of flywheel in the drivetrain...

Mart

[Hughes500]

212 man

Both machines use the Allison C20 series, they do use the same amount of fuel, just the same as the 206 at max continuous uses the same amount of fuel as a 500 at max continuous, which is around 200 lbs of fuel / hr ( approx 25 gals). If you look at the Allison specs you will find the fuel flow charts at the various power settings. I agree that if each helicopter type does not use the same amount of power from the engine then obviously the fuel flow will be different eg Schweizer 333, but 206 500 and 480 use the same amount of power. The C20R series engine uses about 5 gals more than a C20B it is used in 500's as the hot and high varient as it pulls less tot for a given Tq setting.

[md 600 driver]

hughes 500

the 480 has a c20w engine not a c20r if that makes any difference

having flown the 500 and the 480 my opinion is that the 480 uses less fuel

[diethelm]

R's B's and J's have the turbine exhaust stack facing up. W's have the turbine exhaust stack facing down. Same basic engine. You can not simply turn an R, B or J upside down as the gearbox would not work.

[Hughes500]

MD600driver

Most 500's have a C20B rather than the useless gas guzzling C20R. I will obviously stand corrected but believe the 480 uses about 180 to 200 lbs of fuel an hour at max cont

[the wizard of auz]

Any of you auzzie mustering pilots out there have a comparison between the R22 and the F series enstrom for mustering operations??.
looking mainly at cost and effiancy, TBO's, manouverability, maintanance problems, Ect.
cheers, Wiz.

[Reefdog]

Never seen an enstom mustering...so that will tell you something.

try R-22 V H-300, now your talking

Short term cost a R-22, Long term cost go the H-300

R22 is faster ( so you get back to the pug quicker)
H-300 is fair more manuavable.( yes I know I cant spell)

Check out the post on Mike Keyden, with him flying a 300. and that will give you an idea of about 40% of what a 300 can and will do..
Ask any old mustering pilot that flew 300's back in the 80's... They a fantastic machine

[badbreath]

They have got to be the ugliest machine out there ,I see one in Adelaide when im passing through i think it is on static display at Parafield airport by the roadside.

[Freewheel]

Wiz,

Depending on the model, I suspect you'll find the Enstrom a bit expensive. The A models are cheap to buy and pretty good to run. They're also a bit short on power, but you'll have a hard time breaking them - they're overbuilt, really.

The first time I looked at the tail rotor I saw a couple of straws, but I suppose the chill that runs down the spine brings care and respect. Might be your limiting factor in the heat.


Not sure about the C, did they have the turbo?


The F has the turbo and has been developed into quite a nice thing, but the DOC's are closer to the R44 than the R22.

Lots of inertia, a very solid feel, heavier controls but doesn't take long to get used to it. Autos way, way better than anything else & I've never heard of ground resonance.

The blades are on condition, therefore they don't fall off!

I've never heard of one mustering either, but there's quite a history of them spraying so they can't be that bad, the modern mustering techniques might suit them much better than the old.




Reefdog,

Do you mean Dennis Kenyon? If so, his Enstrom routine is near enough to identical to his 300 routine. Extremely impressive, and I'm not aware of him doing anything similar in a Robbie.

Couldn't believe he did it in the turbine enstrom as well, I wonder if he'll do it in the 333?

[the wizard of auz]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was wondering about the enstrom because they seem to be cheaper to buy than the robbo and have longer time on a lot of the components.
the one little glitch that seem fairly obviouse, is the lack of maintanance facilitys that work on them.
I was guessing it was a nasty little circle that might have kept them from the mustering game. not many about = not to many LAME's required = not to many bought and used due to the dificulty having it serviced and worked on.
not much slower than the Robbo (Ok, a few knots) and uses a bit more fuel, but hey, the 47s use a lot more fuel and delivers a lot less.
Havn't heard of to many pranging in the bush either........... but that could be directly proportional to the number of them out there.
Any one have any figures on them? costs, weights, speeds, Tbo on parts, Ect.

[Disguise Delimit]

For the turbo models:
1. Bitch to re-start when hot
2. Three minute cooldown
3. Needs the turbo just to fly - 29" was the minimum power required in the cruise, so lose the turbo and down you go.
4. Horrible things
5. See 4.
6. Ditto.
7. Engine dipstick seemed like 6 feet long with three twists and turns to get to the oil, easy to bend it when in a rush
8. Horrible things....:yuk:

[Freewheel]

The Enstrom website has a data sheet that gives weights & performance. There's been an Enstrom executive appear on these forums on a 480 thread somewhere who should be able to give you the overhaul times.

Sticking with the F model, I believe the transmissions are an exchange item(?) but the engine & the inspections should be able to be done in your average workshop. I understand there's some issue about the turbo having a different approval. Probably not much of an issue, even if true. Check this with your workshop.

The current model's DOC equates to about Aus $200 an hour. This puts it under the R44, but there are a few people starting to muster with R44's to give themselves more margin. I suppose if I really had to, I'd rather have an Enstrom's inertia and boot than either robbo's kiddy seats, which probably have the esky under them anyway.

On the other hand, the blades droop quite a bit at rest so you get to relax a bit while everything stops - there's no brake. While a bit better than the robbos, the turbo will be VERY hot not far off the ground, still well within spinifex reach. Look after your turbo, you won't go far without it. Some people have a sworn hatred of the clutch arrangement. There's a whole series of things in slightly strange places that some people hate and others just accept.

If I were taking the cocky or training a new kid for the block, no contest. You won't have problems carrying the weight, the fat ones won't squeeze you onto the skid, there's enough power for any DA you're likely to encounter and most importantly you won't ever have to buy the first round at the end of the day!

You don't have to buy a whole helicopter just to get floats either.



And anyway badbreath, isn't beauty in the eye of the beerholder after all?

[goose boy]

A friend of mine told me that nobody has ever been fatally injured in an Enstrom

Is there any truth to this comment or is it just an urban myth

Any feedback would be much appreciated

[VeeAny]

The NTSB Database (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp) has 35 recorded fatal incidents in Enstroms since 1970.

I think its correct to say an Enstrom has never had a fatal accident in the UK.

V.

[slowrotor]

Enstrom buying....

I just completed the Enstrom maintenance class at the factory with the idea of buying an older model. Here are my thoughts:
The Enstrom is marketed as a a kind of flashy sportscar would be marketed, to be bought by someone that doesnt need to ask about cost much. I heard about $2000 for this and $14000 for that and so on and so on.... I lost interest.
The costs may be comparable with other helos... I just cannot afford any helicopter is the real truth.
Enstrom is overbuilt, heavy and has about half the fatal crashes of the R22 based on by own crude look at NTSB reports. The blades dont fall off. But the blades might disbond after 30 years and you need a new set ($30,000) And you need a $15 or $20k chadwick to keep it tracked. Hence my loss of interest. But if I had a real need for a helo I would buy an Enstrom I think.

[and Tompkins]

Does anyone have any experience with this machine that they would care to speak of? Just wondering about the +'s and -'s of the aircraft.

Thanks!

Tompkins

[Ian Corrigible]

Never flown the type myself, but there were a couple of comments on the 480 in the Enstrom Corner thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=190595).

I/C

[helicopter-redeye]

Are there any Enstroms in the UK with pop out float kits fitted? (possibly a turbine rather than a piston engine)??

In curiosity

h-r;)

[md 600 driver]

yes there is at least 2 with floats on N485A and GOSKP at least they had them on when i had them [i belive N485A in in progress of changing to the g reg g meek i think ] both 480 turbines dont know any pistons

regards steve

[flyingdragon]

Does anyone know if is possible to fit pop outs to a 280c? as far as I can see its fixed only. how much speed do the fixed floats knock off?
Price of a mrgb overhaul ?
anything I should look out for ? sorry all the questions but in the process of buying one and any info would be gratefully received
also anyone have the poh in pdf (so I can swot up before it arrives)
Thanks
fd

[Jed A1]

I'm sure it is possible to fit pop outs to a 280C. I'm just not sure that it has been done to date. I guess it depends how much you want to spend!

You can get air-conditioning for them.

With fixed floats installed the VNE goes down to 85mph at sea level. I'm sure you'll be thrasing the guts out of the engine long before then.

MRGB overhaul (exchange) approx US$12,000 (TBO 1,200 hrs) plus freight (both ways, to and from the US), taxes, VAT (if applicable) and removal / fitting labour and incidentals. Don't forget downtime whilst the gearbox is being exchanged.

Things to look for...... a list as long as my arm if you want.

Lets start with, where are you looking to buy from?
Checkout the history of the machine with a fine tooth comb - any doubt ask someone.
Get a third party familiar with Enstrom's to survey the machine. Then run it buy a fourth party.


PM me and I can get a POH to you or if you have any questions about the above.

Get a good un and you'll love it.

P.S.

I Forgot to add, that I believe the quote is, "Nobody has ever been killed due to the mechanical failure of an Enstrom".

[HFT]

Could anyone who operates an Enstrom 280fx advise on their feelings about this type, speed,smoothness,maintenance in Australia, throttle control, tail rotor effectiveness,fuel economy etc, for a private pilot who has flown mainly R44 and H500. Thanks in advance:)

[cyclic flare]

after a 500 or a 44 it will be like flying dead donkey with a bad leg

[md 600 driver]

after flying a 500 it would be abismal but its loads better than a 44

i flew to sloanes to try out the 44 i went in my 280fx the 44 seemed to be not as stable as the fx was ,granted i only flew 15 mins but that was enough i then flew home without any problems the instructor at sloanes said it was a windy day for the 44 the 100 mile flight there and back in the fx was fine




steve

[Fun Police]

you might be able to acces verticalmag.com's review of the 280fx which was in their most recent issue. they do post a lot of their articals on line. good hunting.

[Bladecrack]

HFT,

Have done a bit in the 280fx and found it to be great fun and a real pilots helicopter, I have also plenty of time on R44's. The 280fx is nice and stable and has excellent autorotational capabilities and are quite reliable if maintained properly. They can't compare to the R44 for cost, value for money, fuel economy etc. but if you fancy something different I would recommend it. The key is to get one in good condition and make sure it is well maintained. Naturally when you ask about Enstroms you will get the usual sarcastic comments from pilots who have never flown them or know very little about them so aren't really qualified to comment. I would like to think I have given you a more balanced viewpoint.

Good Luck,
BC.

[Flingwing207]

Put quite simply, the 280 is to the R44 what the 300CBi is to the R22. Completely different aircraft with completely different strengths and personalities. If you want light, fast, frugal and 3 pax plus pilot, go R44. If you want solid, robust, fairly fast, ample reserves, huge safety envelope, go Enstrom.

[rotorboater]

The other big advantage of the Enstrom is that you don't have time lifed parts (except the lamaflex) so if you don't do many hours a year it works out cheaper than the 44 which you only really rent from Frank fo 12 years!

[crunchingnumbers]

Can someone give me a source for an a/c kit for the F28C/F. Is it available as an STC.

Can anyone give me general performance from the POH for 30°C sea level ops eg. MTOW, oge hover ceiling.

Good sources for used aircraft might also be appreciated or a good freelance engineer for survey work.

Cheers in advance for any info.

[TOT]

The CAA have issued a directive which dictates that all G reg Enstrom 480's/480B's on reaching 1275 flight hours must soon have the main rotor hub plates replaced. This is dispite the fact that , to the best of my knowledge there has NEVER been a failure , or related problem in the UK or worldwide. The components in question have a normal life of 5000+hours.
In the UK right now there are a number of 480's already with 1275 + flight hours, these would then be immediatley grounded.
Now just hang on a minute, how is this justified?. Do the CAA experts have better knowledge than the designers and makers ENSTROM. Who is this great expert at Gatwick that knows best? Come to think of it I'm not sure the CAA even have anyone working for them who is rated on 480's/480B's!
Sadly, I hear that EASA is going to back this CAA directive , that means that all 480's in Europe are going to grounded as well when the time comes!!!!!!!
WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE???!!!!! Come on ENSTROM get your gloves on and argue back!!!

[B Sousa]

Sounds like someone at CAA didnt get his share under the table........

[SASless]

The CAA has a lot of issues where they have no one qualified in the aircraft either as a pilot or engineer. Nothing new there. That does not stop them from acting as experts on those aircraft.:ugh:

The fact these same folks make wonderful decisions that serve to boggle the minds of the rational among us is also no surprise.

If there is such danger to life to justify this action....are the FAA wallahs doing the same?

Of course the FAA does some very silly things too....like the Engine AD on the Huey...also without any empirical data to support the action. Owners of the Restricted Catagory Huey's have filed suit in court to protest that action. Maybe that is appropriate here.

[Cyclic Hotline]

The only FAA AD on this part is this one here. (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/7DFCF4EEFB0C60D886256B1F00595E70?OpenDocument)

It would indeed be interesting to understand the basis of this life reduction. Do you have any links to the CAA or EASA rule and AD?

What is the Enstrom position on this?

Alternately, I guess that you will be like everyone else in Europe and put your machine on the N register and tell them to go :mad: themselves. :eek:

Part 2 - edit following a bit more reading.

The CAA issued an AD concerning this part in August 2003, http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/536/G-2003-0002.pdf, so maybe complaining about it years after the event is a little belated?

What is the background to this life limit reduction and determination? Have you spoken to the CAA Engineer named in the AD? It certainly seems a little strange to make a determination of this magnitude, considering this model is manufactured and conformed to FAR 27, although it was originally designed to Part 6 of the CAR. Interesting issue, maybe someone has more insight?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I know nothing about this particular issue (indeed, I'm only about 80% sure I'd recognise an Enstron 480), however...

A few years ago, working for an organisation supporting a fixed wing aeroplane, I had cracking in a critical component (a wing attachment) reported to me from the field. I did a fleetwide survey and discovered that it actually occurred on a reasonable proportion of the fleet and the component had fairly routinely been replaced WITHOUT anybody reporting a trend.

CAA, looking over my shoulder said "you need to ground all of those", I fought back saying that was totally unnecessary for, maybe half a day until I came to my senses. I agreed to a grounding and modification and I'm pretty convinced that if I hadn't, we'd have had a fatal by now.

But, the owners hated it - I lost track of the number of times I had to defend that decision, either in public or private. My organisation and the CAA came under an enormous amount of flack and, yes, there had never been an in-flight failure.

Yet!



So, knowing CAA's competences and approach, plus what we'd all say if there was a failure next week and CAA hadn't done anything about it, I'm afraid that I feel you're being a bit unfair here.

That said, as an organisation, they are lousy at communicating with the public. So your "where's the evidence" criticism is almost certainly valid. I'm sure that they have it, but should also put it on the table for everybody else to have a look if they're costing operators that much time and money.

G

[quichemech]

Well said Genghis.:D

As a rule they don't generally make it up as they go along.

[dupontrotors]

Most of the maintenance complaints came from technicans that were more used to other brands. Once you get to know it the Ensrom is as easy or easier to maintain than other helicopters in its class, but a bit like a sports car it certainly helps to know the critter.

Most difficutlty in holding track went away when the elastomeric feather bearings got fixed in 1994. Since the Enstroms have no airframe life, there are lots around that are 30 years old so some of the maintnance issues just resut from the helicpters having been around for many years without as much TLC as might be needed.

[Indfly]

Hi guys

Anyone operating Enstrom480B's??Would like to know it's performance and the Operating costs.

[Bravo73]

This should get you started:

www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=190595 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=190595&highlight=Enstrom+480B)

:ok:

[Indfly]

Would be grateful if people out there can throw some light on the pros and cons of Enstrom 480B...Operating costs,flying characteristics,performance,spares availability and maintenance issues?

[Indfly]

Thanx...Bravo

[Indfly]

Hi guys

Needed data/wisdom/experience on 480B's safety features,maintenance,life of components,safety aspects w.r.t transmission system,tail rotor design any other issue that you would like to warn before buying.

[bsipos]

Hi there,

could somebody pls advise if the lamiflex bearings should be replaced after 5 years regardless of the time flown? thx. bsipos

[HillerBee]

Yes, it's a lifelimited parts, which should be replaced after 5 years, regardless if the aircraft flew or not.

[bsipos]

Thank you! : )

Do you know of any online source where I could download the 280 C Shark POH from?

[HillerBee]

Send me you email address and I'll send you one.

[email protected]

[bsipos]

:O thank you, I have sent the mail.

[DennisK]

I suppose one of the dubious advantages of being in the flying business for 55 years is that a lot of the queries that come up on our forum are really old hat for we COFs * ... especially when considering the Enstrom marque.

Floats on the 28/280 series are a definite 'YES' I flew and certified the float configuration for the CAA certification in 1974 ! She was serial number 176 with the "Air Cruiser" floats. Contrary to what has been noted on this thread, the top speed isn't adversely affected. In fact when I flew G-BBPO, I was surprised to note a small ASI increase ! The Enstrom designer Herb Moseley told me the aerodynamics of the inflated floats required less power than the draggy skid arrangement.

You can tell the float certified version by the repositioned pitot tube now mounted above the cabin nose.

Best wishes to ppruners all,

Dennis K

* Crusty old farts !

[Avi8tor]

Just a comment on using Enstroms for round -up. We had our FX on a game counting/capture/darting contract in south africa for 2 yrs. The guys loved it. Some of the flying was up at 6000' with 30 deg c days.

As an airline pilot that now owns and instructs, only prob with an Enstrom is that it needs to go on a diet. Darn thing is way over designed. Make it lighter, it will go faster and use less fuel, hence more range.

Oh yeah, Johannesburg is 5500 amsl and 30 deg in the summer. Should see them R22's fall out the sky.

[bsipos]

could somebody pls advise on the typpical cost of an F 280 C Shark MRGB overhaul and the lamiflex bearings? thank you

[EN48]

All,

I have been flying fixed wing acft since 1966, and have intended for many years to add Helicopter and Instrument-Helicopter ratings to my Commercial certificate. My initial intent was to train in and acquire a B206. I went to see Roger Sharkey at Sharkey's Helicopters in Lebanon, NH, an Enstrom dealer and Bell advocate/Part 135 operator with several 206's and a 407 on charter. We spent a few hours flying the 206 and 480B, and I found the 480B to be much less demanding to fly, and the cabin layout to be more appealing for a personally flown helo. After doing some homework, it became evident that the 206 would be about 40% more expensive to buy comparably equipped, and about 1.5X to 2X as much to insure (if I could buy insurance at all for the 206 with my lack of helicopter experience.) Sharkey's was able to get me a quote on 480 insurance which, while not cheap, was acceptable.

I have long considered the 206 to be the ultimate personal turbine helicopter, so even with logic favoring the 480B, I attempted to pursue the purchase of a 206. I called both the local Bell sales office and the headquarters sales office in TX and could not get a salesperson to return my call. I subsequently was told that 206's are sold out into 2009, so they really didnt have anything to sell.

I began training in the 480B in December, and got in about 10 hours before the acft was sold. While waiting for Sharkey's to get a another 480B on the line for training, I began flying an R22 just to keep my hand in. As others have pointed out, the contrast is striking, as one should expect. I have learned a great deal from flying the R22, however, Sharkey's now has a new 480B available for training and I will finish up in that ship.

As part of my evaluation process, I went to the Enstrom factory and spent a day meeting with the President and VP Sales. I was impressed with what I saw and how I was treated. Enstrom actually made it seem like they wanted my business! I have placed an order for a new 480B with the recently announced Chelton FlightLogic EFIS system. Based on the homework I have done, and 40 years of experience flying and owning fixed wing acft, I am confident that I have made an appropriate decision for my present needs, and this decision seems to be supported by the Enstrom savvy posts here. Every flying machine is a compromise involving many tradeoffs - with each choice, you get some things and give other things up.

I also spent considerable time reviewing the safety record for the 206, 480, and other Enstrom models (because there are relatively few 480's in the fleet.) I read hundreds of NTSB accident reports on both the the 206 and Enstrom models. The 480 has a superb safety record with zero fatal accidents to date, and only four accidents total shown in the NTSB database. Only one of these four is related to mechanical issues, and this was a ground resonance event attributed to defective elastomeric lead/lag dampers; I am told that the acft gave the pilot ample warning, which was ignored. This issue has been studied closely by Enstrom and Lord (damper manuf.) and these dampers have been removed from service and replaced with well proven hydraulic dampers until an improved elastomeric damper is available. (In reviewing all 417 Enstrom accidents reports dating to 1965, I was unable to find any other instances of ground resonance, which surprised me given the fully articulated rotor system. Apparently Enstrom solved this potential problem decades ago.)

(As part of my evaluation process, I also looked at the 333 and EC 120. I found the 333 to be too small, and the EC 120 to be the most expensive of the bunch, and with significant questions about post sale support.)

As with many other aspects of life, I have found those with the least experience with Enstroms to be the most negative. I will report back when I have some meaningful experience with the 480.

Best,

RB

[Gaseous]

MRGB overhaul US$14900
Lamiflex bearings US$ 1550 each

Plus taxes & carriage.

[bsipos]

;) Thank you!

[ppheli]

Check eBay listing here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ENSTROM-HELICOPTER-AIR-CRUISER-FLOATS-AS-IS_W0QQitemZ230118371276QQihZ013QQcategoryZ26442QQcmdZViewIt em) for a pair of Enstrom F28F floats in Washington state USA. May be of use to someone?

[Comd John Frog]

There is said to be an enstrom flying with a police organisation in the usa with 37,000 hrs on some major componets (including main rotor blades)

[DennisK]

As the Enstrom plant will tell you ... the Pasadena police used the Enstrom 28 series since around the mid 1970s. When I was actively involved, I had many a conversation with their then Chief Pilot, Nick Augusta. I understand they topped the 25,000 hours with one of the fleet several years ago.

As the factory didtributor, I personally delivered no less than six Enstrom 28s to CSE at Kidlington. I recall G-BBXO passing the 10,000 hour stage in the 1990s.

I have posted here before with the FACTS on the marque .. as opposed to the hogwash I have to read occasionally. I still like the type and enjoy displaying all variants, but one does have to live with the shortcomings ... none of which have safety considerations.

I suppose the good looking Enstrom is like an attractive lady ... terrific fun, but be prepared to open your wallet a lot.

Crash hat on standby for PC flack. (Go on Whirls ........)

Dennis K

[TOT]

The Enstrom is certainly popular in some areas.
During a recent visit to Gloucester airport I noticed
G REAN-480B
G IGHH-480
G IJBB- 480
G MEEK- 480
G OZAR-480
G OJBB-280 FX
G PBYY- 280FX
G OABO -F28A
They all live at Gloucester and there's several others based just local! :)

[born2fly_au]

Can anyone please help me find information on the Enstrom's rotor head as i have searched the Internet without much luck. in particular how it is setup in regards to pitch control as there are no visible linkages that I can see. Is there another shaft running up the centre of the main shaft to control pitch or is done some other way. Any information would be helpful including images.
Thanks in advance Born2fly

[slowrotor]

The Enstrom has three push/pull tubes inside the mast. A small swashplate is mounted below the main transmission.

[born2fly_au]

Thanks slowrotor, that explains a bit but i would still like a bit more detail and if anyone has any images that would also be great.
Thanks Born2fly

[zimb]

Hi Born2fly, Can you recomend a school in Australia that would do an endorsement on a 280c. I may have missed it, but do you own a machine or are you working on one as a LAME? Thanks.

[born2fly_au]

if you are interested in doing an endorsement then i would consider contacting Fox-Air http://www.foxair.com.au/ near Geelong. They are the Australian distributor for Enstrom. He is a qualified instructor who maybe able to help you or put in touch with someone who can. The Enstrom looks like a strong alternative to the Schweizer 300 and i am interested in finding out more about them. The trouble is there is only a small number in this country compared to other types.
Born2fly

[zimb]

Thanks. I think they do training up at Kootamundra, I know they have a 280 f model there. It was in the film "Three Dollar".

[indrek]

Question about C&G, has anyone problems with it on Enstrom 480B? (Pilot 200lbs, 2 passengers about 200 lbs and more) and as much fuel as we can take within limits.

[indrek]

Empty weight is 1925 lbs, i have problem with zero fuel weight, C&G is going little bit forward - outside the limits.

[HillerBee]

I can't imagine you flying with zero fuel!

[EN48]

Perhaps a dumb question, but while having decades of plank experience, I have only recently completed a PPL rating in an Enstrom 480B. I have a new 480B on order, and, in part, my purchase decison was influenced by the excellent safety record of the 480 in particular and Enstroms in general. The POH for the 480B states that the helicopter has been demonstrated to be easily controllable in winds to 40 kts. My research could find no accident reports for Enstroms for which LTE was a stated factor. A very high time commercial Enstrom pilot (and insurance accident investigator) friend states that he is unaware of any Enstrom LTE events, ever, due to the high tail rotor authority of the Enstrom design. He recently demonstrated to me running Nr down to 80% in wind conditions of 12G23 and maintained control easily while hovering/turning downwind. While I know better than to assume that it could never happen, is the Enstrom design as immune to LTE as my current information would indicate?

Thanks for any informed opinions.

RB

[Gaseous]

Rick, Your aircraft and those with the wide chord blades are as immune from LTE as any. I wouldnt assume it absolutely impossible.

It is certainly possible to get in a mess with the narrow chord tail rotor of the 28A and 280 if the RPM is low. If anyone is interested I can bore you with the details.

At Normal RPM the narrow chord blades are more than adequate.
Aircraft built 1975 on, have the wider chord blades which solved the problem at low RPM. Enstrom must have realised there was a problem and solved it. :ok:

[EN48]

Gaseous,

Thanks - the more I learn about the 480, the more impressed I am!

RB

[rick1128]

Rick,

You might consider being careful where you land. A few months ago I was discussing the 480 with the DPE that was conducting my Instrument checkride. He is a high time Enstrom pilot and dealer. His concern was with the placement of the exhaust ports. Instead of going out near the top, they were placed at the bottom of the helicopter. So there was a chance of starting fires when on the ground.

[hypcop]

Is it normal tu burn 20 Gal an hour for this type of helicopter

Thank you

Pierre

[EN48]

rick1128,

Thanks for the tip. I learned this the hard way a few months ago. I have been trying to keep my helicopter activities concealed from my spouse. (No point in causing a domestic disturbance before its necessary.) I landed in our yard while she was out of town and the next day, the grass in this spot was brown! No fire, as it is short, green grass, but my cover was almost blown! (In case you are wondering, I will eventually let her in on my secret. I figure that if this is the only thing I hide from her, how big a deal can it be?)

RB

[Gaseous]

Hycop,
20 Gallons per hour is not normal. Get it checked over and learn how to lean it. You should easily get it down to 16 - less if you try hard.

rick1128,
It is not just the turbines that can start grass fires. The warning equally applies to the piston models that exhaust from the bottom. (280, F28A and Robinsons)

Long dry grass has destroyed quite a few aircraft over the years.

[hypcop]

would any body have a Component times remaining list for enstrom 280c 1977 please. If so is it possible to email-it to me please
[email protected]


many thanks

[zimb]

Would any body be able to give us some advice on tracking and balancing a 280c MR. We seem to have a horzizontal vibration almost like a wobble that gives alot of feed back through the cyclic making hovering very uncomfortable. We have recently put the blades back on after transporting it, they were all numbered and went back to there original grips. Does any body have any useful tips on balancing or tracking? Thanks.

[Chopper Doc Junior]

There is a possiblity that the outboard trim tabs have been moved during transportation. contact the enstrom factory and ask them for details of the original tab sttings.

Also there could be something wrong with the swashplate.

What equipment are you using to carry out the track and balance?

[lartsa]

that sounds like damper trouble to me

[Gaseous]

Balancing is done with a Chadwick or similar machine. If you have simply had the blades off and it was flying OK before its not likely to be balance - plus it has to be quite a bit out to make that much difference.
Most likely, as CD says is an outboard tab bent. The factory may well not have the right settings. I dont think the numerous times mine have been tweaked and blades have been swapped have been reported back to the factory.

If its been knocked out of trim, in my experience it is quicker to start from scratch by zeroing and resetting all the outboard tabs. The procedure for setting the tabs is in the book. Section 12 if I recall right. Dont touch the inboard ones unless you are prepared to get out the chadwick.

Could be a lamiflex gone bad but not that likely.

Unlikely to be air in damper as that usually manifests as big vibrations on cyclic changes. Siezed damper makes it rough all the time. The dampers are easy to check and I'm sure you do it as part of your pre-flight anyway.
I wouldnt bother with the chadwick unless checking flat pitch with reflectors and eliminating cyclic stir with outboard tabs doesnt put things right.

Best of luck.

[zimb]

Thank you all for your input and helpful suggestions. I will work through them. We have not started with the balancing yet as I thought the problem may be Lameflex related, they have one year left to run. The engineer said he did not get much spring back from two of them on his inspection. I will also check the trim tabs. Thank you all once again.
Best regards.

[Chopper Doc Junior]

If there is any doubt about the lamiflex bearings and they are the source of the problem you will not be able to track the blades successfully. This has caused untold amounts of grief in the past. You might also want the engineer to remove the lamiflex bearings and see if there is any surface corrosion between the nut and the bearing. This has been know to happen in the past and cause the bearing to stick. Just remove the corrosion and refit and retest. Only do this if the corrosion is minor and has been assessed by a qualified engineer.

Good luck!

[Gaseous]

If it does turn out to be a lamiflex gone bad, please let us know. Mine just had its annual and I noticed that my four year old lamiflexes have started to bleed a lot of rubber. Bad batch maybe. Mines flying OK at present though.

I'd still be putting money on a tab bent though as it was flying OK before the blades came off..

[zimb]

My engineer seems to think it is the lamiflex. They are bleeding alot of ruber. As you mentioned maybe a bad batch. Damper's seem ok. We are going to try some other Lamiflex's to see if this helps. If it is a bad batch, do you think the factory would come to the party, and do a pro-rata as the machine has not flowen for close to one year, and the lamiflex have still one year to run? So they have been in this condition for two years out of there five year life.

[EN48]

After an 18 month wait, my new 480B was delivered on Wed. (The delay was due to issues with the Chelton software certification.) We immediately set out from the Enstrom factory in MI to our home base in NH. This 1000 nm flight was completed in 9.0 hours on the meter (11 hours on the clock including fuel stops in Chicago, Cleveland, and Elmira). The flight was as flawless as one could want – no acft squawks, and 30+ miles vis over the entire route.

The acft exceeds all expectations. Fit and finish are magnificent! Everything works. Enstrom went far beyond the call of duty to assure that I was pleased with the acft . Very easy to deal with, and even the CEO was personally involved.

IMHO, the 480B is the best kept secret in the light turbine category. The key numbers are very close to the Bell 206, for about 60% of the price – not inexpensive but quite a good value. The 480 is possibly the most pilot friendly of all the light turbines, and the safety record is superb, with only four accidents in the NTSB database since certification in 1994, with none of these involving fatalities.

Update 27.7.08: a few very minor squawks in the first 90 days, all quickly remedied. Support by my Enstrom dealer, Sharkey's Helicopters, Lebanon, NH, has been superb in evey respect. I am now completing the requirements for an add-on instrument-helicopter rating. The 480 is a delight to fly under the hood due largely to its relative stability and the effectiveness of the electric trim system. The biggest challenge in the IR training is learning the Chelton EFIS/FMS; this is an amazingly capable system which makes flying instrument approaches easier than most other systems I have used, as it provides both lateral and vertical guidance throughout the approach. However, it does take awhile to learn to put the capabilities of the Chelton to work. I have been unable to find a CFII-Helicopter who knows the Chelton system, so we (I and my instructor) are learning the Chelton together via the time honored methods of reading the manual and doing lots of experimenting.


EN48


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk245/EN48480B/DSC03650edit3.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk245/EN48480B/CIMG0116edit3.jpg

[k12479]

Congrats, nice choice of paint too.

[rick1128]

Congratulations EN48. Looks nice. Just signed the papers for an older 28C. reasonable times on most everything. With a couple of high time items, but enough time to get out a year or so, before I have to do anything major. Recent paint but needs interior work. Should be interesting. Might be up your way to do my AirSure checkout with Sharky.

It's presently going through an annual/prebuy. When I flew the 28A I was negatively impressed. But again I was in Houston, TX in July with a 260 pound CFI and in an instrument ship. Of course it make power management easy. Only had one power setting "Balls to the Wall". I did my research as well. I saw only two fatals in the 28C since 1975. a few serious injury accidents. Most of them accident reports read 'occupants walked away from the helicopter'.

As for the transmission overhaul. The folks doing my prebuy told me that field overhaul used to be authorized for the Main and tail rotor transmissions, but they had several of these make metal after the overhaul. So the factory stopped allowing that.

[FLY 7]

The 480B would be my choice as a light turbine.

Very nice.

[EN48]

rick1128,

Roger Sharkey is one of the most knowledgeable Enstrom experts around. He has north of 20,000 hours in helicopters, a lot of which is in Enstroms. I did my helicopter add on training with him in a 480 and also a B407 transition. A real resource for Enstrom owners in the U.S. He runs the Enstrom factory insurance progam and works closely with AirSure.

EN48

[rick1128]

EN48,

The impression I got from AirSure, is that Roger is their prime choice. However, I DPE I used for my Instrument and CFII, Tim Salikia, is also well regarded by AirSure. Since I did my checkride with him within the last year, I am hoping they will allow me a couple of months grace to get this requirement done. There are one or two in NJ/ East PA area. If I can get together with them.

[born2fly_au]

EN48, What sort of Fuel consuption did you get on the flight home from the factory? Nice machine with the EFIS Panel.
Born2fly

[EN48]

B2F,

About 180 lbs/hr at 60 PSI torque, 110KIAS.

EN48

[Roflcopter]

Hello everyone!

Soon I'm hoping to start with the t/r for the Enstrom 480b. This is a new helicopter to me and I've never worked with it before. Only seen it stationary but looks promising so far!!

Ofcourse during the TR course I will get a lot of information about the machine but I just want to be a step forward ;). Are there any colleagues here who would like to share some tips/tricks, maintenance issues, flying issues etc (either by post or PM)? I have experience with turbine helicopters (AW139 and Jet/Longranger).

I used the search function on the forum and found quite some information but there quite a lot of old posts in there so this is more a fresh start ;).

Much appreciated!!
:ok:

[FLY 7]

Can't add to your post, but I do like the 480B:)

[airbourne]

Ive been having a read of this thread looking for some answers but I may as well as the question. If one was looking for a cheap and cheerful enstrom, would the F-28c be the one to go for?

Myself and 2 other fellas are about to get out PPLs on the R44. The plan after that would be to hour build for a while and see if going for the CPL is a reality.

Is an enstrom a good buy? I hear lots of tales of mecanical problems? Basically we dont want to have to shell out upwards of £100k for a machine that has a limited life like the R44.

[slowrotor]

It is worth taking the Enstrom maintenance course before buying, in my opinion. I took the course, then decided not to buy a helicopter (cost too much for me). If I had partner, that might have helped.
Send your mechanic or find one with Enstrom experience.

[chopjock]

F-28C nice but a bit slow.
You might like to consider a 280C, just like the one I have for sale.:)

[Tailboom]

Hi does anyone out there have a flight manual for a 480B in a pdf file or know where I can download one, ive spent hours going through the forums with no luck !!

[Clitheroe Kid]

I own a part share in G-LADZ, Serial No. 5001 and have the FM in pdf format. let me have your email address. I'll send you a copy.

CK

[helofixer]

I attended the Enstrom factory maintenance school earlier this year. I was not too impressed. I have 20 years of A&P experience and almost 15 years of helicopter maintenance, both turbine and piston. Having no previous Enstrom experience, they gave you plenty of classroom book learning with almost no hands on...very few airframe mock ups to work on. I'd ask questions like "do you find problems with xxx part or system?" and would get plenty of "no not really" or "not that we've heard of", but while talking to other mechanics in the class with field experience, I would get a different story.
I also am not impressed with the hardware they use to secure rather large panels. Coarse thread sheet metal screws instead of machine screws. Not too smart on a helicopter that vibrates on various frequencies. Also not impressed with the lack of primer anywhere except the pylon. No edge sealant around antennas either. The one we work on is in a very corrosive environment, and while it is a new ship, I for see plenty of corrosion issues, and we already have had to touch up corrosion on both rotors, landing gear and tail rotor drive shaft on an aircraft with less than 500 hours and is not that old calender wise

I do not like working on it, find doing anything to the engine like routine 150 and 300 hr inspections or work on the swashplate/ main rotor gearbox (with its 600 hour retirement life!) a total PITA.

Maybe it will grow on me. But I am not impressed with my first impressions of this aircraft (480B). Your mileage may vary.

[EN48]

swashplate/ main rotor gearbox (with its 600 hour retirement life!)


I have been told that this may change to 1200 hours or perhaps "on condition" and that the 600 hour limit was imposed by the FAA until sufficient field experience was accumulated.


I am not impressed with my first impressions


First impressions are sometimes misleading. The 480B has a surprisingly low number of life limited parts, and the safety record suggests that major failures are quite rare. Just did the 50 hour inspection on my new 480B at 60 TT. Total bill was $89 U.S. Only one minor unscheduled maintenance item in the first 60 hours: a sticking generator relay (not an Enstrom manufactured part) replaced instantly under warranty at no charge.

[Freewheel]

EN48,

I remember reading something about Enstrom planning to have deliveries fast-tracked. Why did you have to wait 18 months for delivery?

[EN48]

Why did you have to wait 18 months for delivery?


I placed the order for my 480B in Dec 2006. A few months later, Enstrom announced the availability of the Chelton EFIS/FMS, and I changed my configuration to include this. As things turned out, it took Chelton and Enstrom considerably longer than anticipated to obtain FAA certification for this configuration. Thats history now and new 480's with the Chelton system are available in a much shorter time frame. IMO, it was well worth the wait.

[Freewheel]

Ahhhhhhh. Fair enough then.


Glad you still like your toy then!

[rick1128]

The swashplate housing is 17700 hours, which basically for all intents and purposes, makes it an on condition part. The swashplate bearings are 1200 hours, unless you add a grease fitting to the housings, then the bearings become on condition. The mechanics I have talked with, tell me they don't see much of an increase in usable times by doing this, for most private owners they only see a 100 to 200 hours increase.

The MR transmission is a 1200 hour item for overhaul. The overhauls MUST be done by Enstrom. Overhaul kits used to be available, however, there have been issues with the quality of these overhauls and Enstrom has pulled the kits.

[chucksweet]

I did the 50 hour check on my 480 and had no problems. I am now at 75 hours and still no problems..and I just love this crazy thing. I am having a blast in it.

Chuck

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x242/Chucksweet/HelicopterN480L.jpg

[chucksweet]

I have a different feeling on my Chelton.

When I ordered my Enstrom it was really hard to get real world information about how it would work. You had not even received yours yet. I ultimately decided to buy the Chelton for any increase in safety it might provide.

5 months later, I am slightly more qualified to make my own assessment. Knowing what I know today, I would not have put the Chelton in. It just doesn't do enough for $100,000. In fact, I recently upgraded my panel with a Garmin 496 to make up for some of the shortcomings.

Here are just some my issues.
1) It takes a long time to boot up - Longer than anything else in my cockpit, by far..which means I am burning extra fuel, etc.
2) I think it is a shame the Chelton requires a different Jeppesen subscription than my 430 (or now the 496, too).
3)The Vertical Speed Indicator in the Chelton is almost worthless. In fact, you can't see it at all from the co-pilot seat, so it make this helicopter pretty hard to train in. I would highly suggest a traditional gauge for VSI in future installations.
4) The terrain awareness feature is cool, but it squawks way too early for helicopters. It is always giving off false alarms. It feels like it is really set up for airplane speeds, etc. I leave it off most all the time.
5) I wish you could see airport diagrams, (like Garmin's "Safe Taxi") etc. Chelton says this will never happen on this product.
6) The Chelton can't talk to my 430, so I have to constantly type airport identifiers into both units...what a pain!
7) Traffic and weather options are unbelievably expensive for it.
8) It can be confusing to operate...some things you set on the MFD, others on the PFD...yeow!
9) It needs a better Turn and Bank indicator - or again, I should have put a traditional gauge in.
10) The "Highway in the Sky" is kind of silly, because in a helicopter you generally are not landing directly to a runway.

In fact, I'd say most of the value of the Chelton would be with airplane based Instrument / IFR situations. Most of the features that they describe in the video or online are directly about working in IFR situations....not relevant to me or Enstrom...as you know, the Enstroms are not certified for IFR flight at all.

All in all, the concept is sort of neat, but it is not really fleshed out far enough. I would much rather have traditional gauges and room on the panel to put in a new Garmin 696, etc.

I do like the ETE and ETA stuff and how it shows wind direction..and basically all of the gauges work fine. The speed and altitude tapes are nice.

Anyway, enough on the Chelton, I don't hate it, but I feel I could have spent my money better.

Edit..later this week the 496 is coming out and I am putting a Garmin 696 in.

Chuck

[EN48]

Chuck,

To each his own on the Chelton. As for me, I wouildnt leave home without it. For me, it makes the machine! I confess to being an avionics junkie, and consider the helo to be a platform to carry the radios around!:ok:

I recently completed an instrument rating in the 480 and found the Chelton to be the most useful of the semi-glass panels I have tried. THe VSI is a challenge, but I have found that one learns to look for it and use it. I feel that light helos are still in the dark ages (steam gages) for the most part re modern avionics. Almost every "advanced" light helo has a Honeywell/King KCS 55 compass system. This thing is a boat anchor that was designed more than 25 years ago. In forty plus years of flying, KCS 55 systems have failed me more than any other. I have added a 696 as a backup (photo here http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/353735-garmin-696-a.html ). It is not without problems as it crashes from time to time (never happened with the Chelton.)

Anyway, we are in violent agreement re the E480 being a great helo.

[chucksweet]

I agree with you, light helicopter's panels are in the dark ages. I guess I covet a panel with a new G1000, or Rockwell Collins etc. How can you not appreciate the panels on a new Cirrus or Citation? Why can't we get those on a helicopter?

I agree the Chelton is better than most anything I have seen on a helicopter, I was just disappointed it doesn't do more and do it better... Faster start-up, better VSI, better declutter, better terrain, airport diagrams, communication to the Garmin radios, (or even have its own radios), etc.

You say the VSI is a challenge...I agree. When I learned to fly helicopters I learned how important it is..I don't want to be "looking" for it. <gr>

Congratulations on the instrument rating. I hope to work on my rating this winter. Maybe as I get into that I will appreciate the Chelton even more.

It sounds like we agree on most of this. Happy Enstrom flying!
Chuck

[docstone]

Trying to gather some user feedback on the 480 for commerical use please - good/bad/indifferent, comparisons with other singles, reliability, AOG support, etc please?

[FLY 7]

From my limited experience they are very nice helicopters.

For commercial use, though, the configuration might limit passenger capacity. Although it can seat 5, it seems best with 3 - so only 2 px.

[TOT]

read your PM, Just sent you 2 pm's
tot

[helirobin]

I have purpose built, free hangerage in return for a little free flying for a 480. I have over 200 hours on type. Very remote SW Shropshire location 10nm SE of Welshpool at 1050ft. asl. Ring Robin on 01588 638648 if interested.