Information on AC

[alwaysflying]

If someone can give the following info on AC it would be apperciated :

1. Are the EMB which AC is getting replacing the RJ, what is the real expansion of the 60 EMB planned in next 18 months ?

2. How many Pilots r there at AC, out of the total what would be the break of Capt / Fo / RP on each fleet.

3. How many yrs of service would the junior most Capt on 340/330/767/320/EMB/CRJ.

4. What is the rate of retirement for the next five yrs

5. What is the pension deal at AC for Pilots , how many yrs do u need to have for full pension.

6. What r the travel perks and what class of travel

7. Is there jump seat policy on AC for Pilots like in the US where one can travel without a tkt .

8. What r the medical benefits for self and family

9. How many new hire courses have already begun since they started in July and what are the plans for the next few months

Thanks in advance

[sepia]

I'm surprised you didn't ask us to derive some obscure math theorm too.

[bzh]

how hold will be the last capt upgrade in the next 6 month.....

roll a dice and mutiply by 10....

answers...

afew
afew
afew
afew
afew
afew
afew
afew
afew
:}

[alwaysflying]

Sorry Guys for asking too many Q's will appreciate any info

Thanks

[meaw]

always flying,

1) 60 Emjets coming , all 25 CRJ"s going. Will provide a net increase of 35 acft if no A320' s are removed ( and at the time none are supposed to go)

2) around 3100 pilots

3)most junior CRJ capt 5 years......most junior EMBJ capt 6 years
most junior A320 Capt 9 years, most junior 767 about 20 years

4) average of 100 retirements per year , maybe even a little more.

5) you must use a pass to use the jumpseat , but they are free of charge these days, you just pay the taxes.

6) unlimited amount of passes on AC and Star Alliance carriers for you and immediate family per year, no limits.
As many ID's as you want.

7) 55 new-hires since July. Next course in late October.

8) defined benefits pension, comes out to about 80% of the average of your best 3 years , full pension after 25 years.(This is a very simplified explanation and I am sure others will jump in on this issue)

MEAW

[saudipc-9]

Anyone know what type of pilots are being hired? I've heard a rumor (Stress on that) that less experienced pilots are being hired first because they know they will work cheaper and take longer to upgrade (read be cheaper for longer) than an older more experienced pilot. Any truth to that??

Cheers
SPC-9

[herc driver]

MEAW:

Some interesting "inside gen" ... thanks. For the retirees, I heard that there was going to be a "massive" retirement of the baby boomers over the next 2 years or so from ACA ... hence the proposed hiring of about 600 new guys over the next 2 years to fill the gap.

How about the 777 deal? Is that completely dead now or may we see that coming up again in the future?

Just wondering if there was a plan to get rid of the gas guzzling 767s and older technology in favour of the new fuel efficient stuff.

/interesting thread for a change ... no name calling and insults flying around. :ooh:

[vrefplus5]

HD,

"gas guzzling 767's"...... my how time flies! I remember when they were replacements for "gas guzzling" L1011's.

[meaw]

Saudi pic,

That rumor is false.Younger guys don't take longer to upgrade because upgrades are done STRICTLY by seniority , no exceptions.
As for young pilots working for cheaper that's not true because there is a collective agreement and the pay is the same regardless of your age and background.

So far the pilots hired this summer almost all have serious jet time or heavy TP time.Some are from Westjet, CargoJet,Skyservice,Bombardier,Jazz, corporate jet outfits, Kelowna Flightcraft and a few from CMA.

Most seem to have many thousands of hours BUT if AC does actually go through with the hiring of 600 pilots like they plan , forsure lower time people will get in , that is for sure and that is what happened in the last hiring spree of the late 90's.
That is the real reason why lower time people will eventually get in.

Herc driver,

Yes there will be a lot of retirements, like I said 100-120 per year for the next decade.The 600 new hires are partly for that but also some growth that is planned with all the new EMBJ's (35 more than the CRJ's they will replace) and because of overseas expansion.

There is no news on the 777 deal as of yet but yes eventually AC has to replace the older ACFT and believe me they will do it profitably even if we don't agree to fly them much below market value......(so much for not slinging mud...)
So I would tell you to stay tuned ......

[jumpy737]

The 600 pilots in the next two years was a rumour propagated by your management during negotiations for the 777 and 787. Have you heard this since then? I didn't think so. With the price of oil hovering around $70.00 I don't think anyone will be hiring a great number of pilots for the foreseeable future so anyone contemplating going should expect to be very junior for a long time. No weekends off, no christmas off, no family birthdays off, and an uncertain schedule every month where you only have 4 days off that are guranteed. I would also guess that more A319/A320's will be leaving than you think which will put more people into the "b-scale".

As for WestJet, things are already slowing down here and for once we are ahead of the hiring curve with no new courses for the foreseeable future.

[the_bug]

Great thread here, many thanks,

What would you say the majority of the flight crews gripes are on the lower end of the scale for working conditions, or could be with the new Emb's coming online? I don't want to be negative, everyone sees greener grass.

Cheers :=

[meaw]

Jumpy,


Guys that were just recalled are already at the top of the EMJ fo list and the new hires in the coming year will become senior on the EMBJ quite fast.I have a friend who was on the second to last course and he is half way up the list.You might be B scale as you like to call it but b scale at AC beats A scale at Westjet.

Think I' m making it up? Go see the any airline pilot paytable website and you will see that base pay at WJ for an FO is around 50K. After 2 years here you will be at 70K if you are still on the EMBJ, 100k if on the 320.
Yes the high price of oil may affect things somewhat, I'll agree with that but there are 2 hard facts:1) 100-120 retirements per year means that even without growth you will need around 300 pilots in the next 3 years.
2) Embraers are arriving 3 each month and you need guys to fly them.There are 60 coming and 25 RJ' going for a growth of 35 ACFT at 5 crew per that' s about 170 crews or 340 pilots.

So 340 + 300= 640. I think that 600 is reasonable Jumpy.Of course Uncle Milton spoke with you and told you of his devilish plot to make us think we're getting 600 guys....Like that would change anything.
I know you WJ guys hope that we do badly and that will justify your decision for staying at WJ (or feel better about not getting in) any company anywhere in the world you run the risk of the hiring coming to a sudden stop and getting stuck junior guy on the totem pole and that applies to you too.

The thing is though that this is a risk a lot of guys cannot afford not to take.Yes the first 2 years aren't great, they coulsd be better.But if you had a chance after let's say 5 years to be a EMBJ capt making 130 K or 340 FO making 140K and eventually retiring a 340 capt at 240K or a 737 capt flying to Grand Prairie at120 K, wich do you think most would choose?

I took a HUGE pay cut to come to AC.
2 years after I was making close to double what I was making at my old company.Been here 7 years , seen the world,make a lot more than a WJ capt flying better equipment around the globe.
I've worked 2 Xmas's so far and eventhough I work some weekends I still get 16 days off.

So don't confuse people with talk of your B scale because it's short term pain for long term gain.

[herc driver]

Yikes - I was hoping that this wouldn't become a WJ vs ACA mud slinging match.

Meaw - what is going to happen to all those guys currently flying the RJ? Will they simply move over to the EMBs as they come on line?

Jumpy - does WJ have expansion plans as well? probably not the same size or scale as ACA but will there be a proportional fleet or operations expansion for WJ?

I know a lot of CF/military guys are right now a little scared (or perhaps just leary) of stepping out to the private sector given the pay cuts, current oil prices, and the possibility of future economic downturns .... much like 2001 - 2003 proved to be for all concerned. Going from a safe 6 figure paycheque to a massive paycut to either WJ or ACA just sacres the "willies" out of a lot of us, but a small handful have made the cross over in the last month.

How many furloughs are going to be recalled back to ACA? While I do not understand the seniority system I am assuming that they will keep their "number" and jump ahead of these new hires that are currently being picked up.

Thanks for the insight guys ..... this is very interetsing reading - from all sides. It's good to hear what the competition is doing and what is happening on the other side of the fence .. as guys like me peer over the top [I'm too close to pension to make that jump over the fence right now].

[meaw]

Herc,

All furlough's are back but yes you would keep your seniority number.

The CRJ guys are going to where their seniority permits them.
A big number are going Capt on the EMBJ.A lot of the FO's are going right seat on the 320.Almost none of the CRJ F'O's are going FO on the EMBJ though as most can now hold something higher......almost all EMBJ FO slots are filled by new hires.

Sorry didn't mean to make it a WJ vs. AC debate ( as there is none)

Cheers.......MEAW

[alwaysflying]

Meauw

Thank you once again ! As before u have been very kind in devoting time to give information to people like myself.

From your posts it appears that with the EMB coming + retirements if AC hires about 600 in the next 3 yrs then approx the first 150 might not see the position group in their 3rd yr since they would prob be able to hold a 320 FO. My calculation is based on the fact that 60 EMB would have the bottom 300 FO's + about 150 for the RP. Correct me if I am wrong ??

With regards to my q's on pension you stated 80% of the best 3 ys with max at 25 yrs service. I would assume that there would be a Cap on the pension or would the guys be getting over 150k in pension ??

Is the entitlement for personal travely Y class or Exec for Pilots ??

Of the 3100 Pilots at AC how many r Capts/FO/RP's

Thanks once again

[meaw]

Always flying,

Sure, my pleasure


I hadn't thought of that but if nothing changes (for the worse or the better) give or take a few dozen numbers you would be right about the first 150 new hires.

Pension: i'm not an expert on the subject so I may be slightly off on my numbers but ballpark: no you are not penalized for staying longer than 25 years, you will get about 80% of the average of your best 3 years so if you were a 340 captain at lets say an average of 220,000 you would get about 176 000 pension.

If you leave before 25 years you get the average of your best 3 years MINUS a penalty wich depending on how early you go can be quite steep.

Personal travel is in Y but you may be upgraded to Business if economy is full or at the agent's discretion.You can pay a small fee for a pass thst gives you an upgrade to Business if space available.

O.K got the numbers

CAPT:1314

FO\'S: 1275

RP\'s:246

[Saltaire]

A bit optimistic.......

Top rate is about 200k now. An uncle of mine has been there 32 years and is due to retire in two years......pension= 110k

176k pension ??? Not a chance

The EMB does have most of the furloughs and will have the new hires as well. Not until you are a 320 fo will you make the 80k. That will take junior fo's and new hires 3-4 years.

It's still a good gig, but the junior guys got hammered with the pay group ie: B-scale and the two year flat pay is ridiculus with probation being one year.

ACPA eats it's young :}

[brucelee]

Jumpy 737 quote:
"The 600 pilots in the next two years was a rumour propagated by your management during negotiations for the 777 and 787. Have you heard this since then? I didn't think so..... No weekends off, no christmas off, no family birthdays off, and an uncertain schedule every month where you only have 4 days off that are guranteed. I would also guess that more A319/A320's will be leaving than you think which will put more people into the "b-scale"
The fact is AC is going through a priod of expansion. Add to that the retirements and the need for 600 new hires is actually an understatement. No management propoganda my friend, just the way it is. Only four days off a month guaranteed? BS. you can multiply that by at least three. The 319/20 leaving is also BS and if they did, most people would not be B scale or whatever you wish to call it. You obviously have no clue as to the way things are in the real AC. Someone has fed you some crap and you are more than happy to spread it. There is no truth to anything you claim. Too bad. This is supposed to be informative and real. As for the 777/87, you will see some in the near future with that dreaded new paint job. Oh well, I'll take them anyway.

[wrenchbender]

Heard today from a Rolls-Royce rep that AC are getting more A340-500's.... whadayathink????

[29chev]

Just ran the numbers on the pension estimator on the ACPA site if you retire in 2025 with 25 years in and your final salary is at $220,000 the yearly pension works out to $104,797/year.
so around 49 % would be closer but this is supposed to be changing to a higher % over the next few years as some improvments are implemented .
29

Also although all furlough pilots have been called back many have taken Leave of Absences and won't be back for 1-3 years and yes when they do they will take their postion back on the list from which they came.

[brucelee]

The ACPA people claim that you make 70% of your best three year's salary. Take it for what it's worth. But I think everyone is missing the big picture. I don't know many places where you can retire with a pension of 100k/yr. plus. At least not in aviation in the great white north. You also have to consider that in your last few years of service, your salary has been close if not more than 200k per year probably allowing you to build a nice little nestegg. And the few years prior to that you were probably making over 100k a yr. too. You get the idea. If you're looking for a get rich quick scheme, you're in the wrong part of the world.

29chev. If I'm not mistaken, the company gives you only a couple of chances at coming back. They won't wait forever. I think most LOA's will be coming back shortly.
On the question of the 340's, I haven't heard anything. But stay tuned next month for a possible announcement on the 777.

[29chev]

brucelee,
As it turns out I'm on a LOA with AC and won't be back until next year and I know of several more who have LOA's out to as far as 2008. I think your confusing LOA and furlough, furlough we could pypass until everyone below us was back and then we had to come or request and get approved for a LOA the LOA is what ever was agreed on between you and the company.
29
I look forward to the 777 news........mmmmmmm

[brucelee]

29chev.
You're right, it is the furlough scenario I was refering to. For some reason though, I thought the company had sent out letters to anyone who was gone. Must of heard it in the crew room. At any rate, next months' bid should see the RJ's gone and 777 in. Bet that will bring some people back to the nest.

[meaw]

Brucelee,

Sounds like good news.please do tell more..............where did you hear that 777's are on the bid?How many, how much growth and all that good stuff......

Thanks

Meaw

29chev,

just curious as to where you are flying on your LOA, are you enjoying it, planning to come back

Thanks

[brucelee]

Management's well kept secret is out, maybe intentionally. I have heard this from many pilots. Caution though, no official statement from God yet. We won't see that untill the bid is out. The 777 order is still on the table subject to ratification (again) but this time there just may be enough yes votes. Something about a seniority solution:p .
I will believe it when I see it though.

[meaw]

Thanks Brucelee,

Seniority solution....Hmmmmmm I wonder what that will be.Maybe our blue friends will have to share the widebodies with the rest of us.

[brucelee]

:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

[nohandsandfeet]

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1127515982.html

So its now official brucelee,

you said that the bid will be coming out next month, does that mean that a vote will happen and pending the outcome a new deal made with Boeing will all occur in 30 days?

sounds pretty quick to me

thanks in advance for the reply!

[brucelee]

The company has until the end of the year to put out a new bid but rumor has it they want the 777 agreement signed asap. The target is to have a bid out by the end of Oct. Sounds pretty quick to me too. Same old story though, no seniority solution, no agreement. Lots of work to be done. Personally, I am confident things will work out. It just may take longer than what's planned.

[29chev]

Meaw,

I'm flying a 340 in Asia, the aircraft and the destinations are fun but living in Asia sucks and I will be back to Canada sooner than later.
29

[Keld]

I have read so many responses about living in various parts of Asia in the various forums, I am curious, from a "Canadian" perspective, what are the "pitfalls" of living in Asia??

[Lost in Saigon]

Same old story though, no seniority solution, no agreement. Lots of work to be done.

No Bruce, It is not the same old story. The seniority solution is NOT tied to the agreement.

There will be an arbitrated solution to the B777/B787 agreement.

Then as a separate issue there will be mediation on the seniority problem. It will be a rather pointless mediation because ALPA who still represents the original Canadian Airlines pilots, has said they will not take part. How do you have mediation when one side is not there? The out come of this mediation will then be reviewed by the CIRB and it is going to be pretty difficult to convince the CIRB that what has happened over the last 6 years has to be totally scrapped and they need to start all over again.

So the pilots at Air Canada will be forced to take more concessions and they seniority issues will still not be resolved.

[29chev]

I should have been more clear...parts of Asia suck parts are great I'm not in a position to say which are which right now....short list: too many people in too small of an area with lots of pollution, and as it turns out I'm not as adaptable as I thought I would be to dramatic cultural differences.

[brucelee]

Lost.
Yes, you are correct about the arbitration process with regards to the 777. But will we still not have to have a vote on that solution? I'm not sure how that process works. Why is it that they can ram that one down our throats, but not a fair seniority solution? Also, if as you say, the seniority issue cannot be resolved, I fear there will be more NO votes in the future.
If the other side doesn't show up, there may not be a solution. However, when ACPA pulled the same stunt, the process continued anyway. I believe this issue is too important to leave as is. If the other side doesn't show up, they just might have to accept the outcome. M.Tepletski knows full well what another NO vote means. In fact, the no vote might be the least of our problems. Strike action comes to mind. That would be an interesting scenario. Some would, some wouldn't. So I guess, no solution, no peace. It's all up to the CIRB.

[alwaysflying]

Hi check this out for some more interview info

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=9475&start=250

[Lost in Saigon]

When the 777 agrement was voted down it should have ended there. The ACPA contract has provisions for the introduction of new aircraft. Failing agreement on both sides the issue goes to binding arbitration. The reason it had to be voted on last time, was because it went beyond the scope of the contract in asking for further concessions.

Air Canada should just order the aircraft they want and let the contract work as it always had before with new aircraft introductions.

But now it looks like ACPA has agreed to binding arbitration on a new concessionary 777/787 agreement without a chance for a vote by the membership.

In effect they have accepted concessions for the entire pilot group merely on the chance that there may be some improvement in seniority for the Original Air Canada pilots.

It seems to be a long shot gamble and I don't really understand why the seniority issue has to be tied to further concessions.

This whole thing is a mess.

At this point I wish ACPA would just go away and we could start all over again with CAW, IAM or even (God forbid) ALPA.

[Rollingthunder]

Uncle Milty named as a member of the board of directors of US Airways

.Air Canada chairman Robert Milton has been named to the board of US Airways Group Inc. after the Canadian carrier's parent company completed its $75-million (U.S.) investment in the American airline yesterday.

Mr. Milton said his new role as a director at US Airways of Arlington, Va., which merged with Tempe, Ariz.-based America West Holdings Corp. -- solidifies Air Canada's partnership in the combined U.S. carrier.

In May, Air Canada's parent, ACE Aviation Holdings Inc., announced it would become a 7-per-cent equity owner in the merged US Airways-America West entity.

Shares in the newly expanded US Airways began trading yesterday on the New York Stock Exchange, closing at $19.30, down from its intraday high of $21.40.

Although US Airways is a so-called legacy airline, it chose the ticker symbol LCC to usher in a new era as a low-cost carrier.

"Our business model will enable us to compete aggressively with any airline, legacy or low-cost, in terms of reliability, amenities and affordability," US Airways chairman and chief executive officer Doug Parker said in a statement yesterday.

The aviation marriage brings US Airways out of bankruptcy court protection and creates the fifth-largest domestic carrier in the United States, Mr. Parker said.

Mr. Milton added that Air Canada passengers will benefit from his airline being in the Star Alliance along with US Airways.

Air Canada, which itself emerged from bankruptcy protection on Sept. 30, 2004, is keen to scoop up connecting U.S. passengers at western regional terminals such as Phoenix and Las Vegas, promoting Asian destinations through Vancouver International Airport.

One of the highlights of the transaction is Air Canada Technical Services' five-year, $1.5-billion (Canadian) aircraft maintenance and overhaul contract for US Airways.

"We expect to see an acceleration of, and increasing growth in, the work that ACTS does for the new carrier," ACTS president William Zoeller said in a statement.

Mr. Zoeller said the finishing touches are being put on final maintenance contracts.

ACTS is scheduled to perform heavy maintenance on US Airways' Airbus A330 aircraft starting Sunday, as well as work in the future on various Airbus and Boeing models.

Still doing heavy mtce for Delta.

[MarkD]

more directors fees for Milty...

anyhoo - going back to a way previous post, meaw mentioned no 320s going but the AC annual report did indicate a reduction in the 32x fleet over the next couple of years - this was pre the collapse of jetsgo so maybe things have changed?

[drageraser]

5) you must use a pass to use the jumpseat , but they are free of charge these days, you just pay the taxes.

What are the taxes[$$$]

Just want to compare. Thx.

[meaw]

Drageraser,

A round-trip pass within canada will cost you about 30$ Canadian, or around 23$ U.S.

To the States it's more because you have to pay the U.S immigration tax, security tax etc...and that will come out to about 50$ CAD or 40 US$ a round trip.
I just used one to Europe and that will set you back about 60$ CAD on taxes.For Asia and the Middle East it varies on the local country's taxes but you will probably not have to pay more than 80-100 $ CAD anywhere.