Inverness Radar [Archive]

Highland Director

19th Sep 2005, 11:01

I'm watching this thread with interest. The Highland jungle drums have indeed been beating. ;)

I'm sure that minimising costs will be the prime factor for HIAL.
As far as I'm aware, Hial have listened to 3 proposals for establishing approach radar at Inverness. :ok:

The parties invloved were NATS, Serco and Marshall Aerospace.

By all accounts, the proposal by NATS included siting of a new radar for Inverness, and feeding this to Aberdeen - nice and simple. However, the cost quoted by NATS caused the Highland eyes to water somewhat and I'm led to believe it's a non-starter. :oh:

Marshall propose aiding HIAL to provide the service in house. (ie, providing the shortfall of ATC staff in the initial stages, thereby enabling Hial ATCOs to complete the requisite APS course followed by validation at Cambridge so that Inverness is not a 'first tour'. SRG are twitchy at the thought of 'green' radar controllers going into a green field unit. :hmm:

But who knows for sure? Hial are going into very much unchartered territory for them. :uhoh:

On a side note, I couldn't help but notice that as soon as the 'Inverness Radar' thread appeared, another thread appeared titled, 'End of Radar for ATC?' Made me chuckle anyway! :}

throw a dyce

19th Sep 2005, 13:00

Ayr TC,

Always Lossie to be very helpful as there is a lot of traffic works directly between the two units and never talks to ScACC.In fact 50% of our traffic never talks to ScACC ,and that is the traffic which is easiest dealt with.
As for the image of Aberdeen,well I think that NATS management and the unions have managed that beautifully over the years.ATCO2/3 farce,high turnover of staff,Downgraded to Band 2.Highest growth of the BAA airports in the last few months,and with oil price at an all time high,probably one of the most vital airports in the UK.Wait for the next Oil boom.What will we get;Probably Band 1 next!
As for your last statement then if you admit it then thats fine.Just wait til you get busted to Band 1.

:ok:

bekolblockage

19th Sep 2005, 15:48

throw a dyce

Sounds like you're ready for another stint in the Far East!

Still, if they keep downgrading ABZ, we could always catch the train instead- if we could get a seat!! ;)

throw a dyce

19th Sep 2005, 20:29

Hi Bekol,

I'm already in the Far East (of Scotland). You could be right though about revisiting the Plaza for another stint.Food for thought that my housing allowance in 99 is the same as take home pay here.We have to have TWR,APP,and APP Radar to be Unit Valid.Unlike lots of NATS units,which are single discipline for a lot more pay.
As for the original thread you can't get the job done without paying for it.HIAL already has a contract to provide Radar into EGPB done from Aberdeen.If they wish to go elsewhere for EGPE then that's up to them.It will be interesting to see the outcome,especially since it's a Green Field site.
In the meantime we wait to see what the Union/Management has stitched up for us in the next pay round.I would stick to the train or Megabus if my guess is correct.
Living on the edge.
TAD:cool:

D80/90

19th Sep 2005, 20:57

throw a dyce

What's the matter with you, get a life and stop the ranting. All you're doing is making yourself look stupid and trying to bring the rest of ABZ down to your level. I'm sure most of the readers will be able to work out that your comments are NOT what the majority of controllers up in the cold north subscribe to - in fact most of us enjoy the 'Ice Station' and have an excellent working relationship with adjacent ATC units.

niknak

19th Sep 2005, 21:07

The big jungle drum told me that Marshalls has definately got the "contract", although where they are going to get the ATCOs from I don't know.
The Drum also told me that Marshalls had been given a contract to "oversee" the management of ATC at Norwich, so that would fit in with the Marshall idea of validating ATCOs elswhere before they go to, for example, Inverness.

Looks like competition for Serco & NATS. :oh:

letMfly

19th Sep 2005, 21:57

although where they are going to get the ATCOs from I don't know.
Although many would consider Inverness to be in a remote part of the country, it has a lot to recommend it. If Marshalls (or anybody else) has got the contract, I reckon they wouldn't have too much of a problem filling the posts if they paid a reasonable amount, say NATS band 2 equivalent.

There are probably several NATS controllers (including one or two at ABZ) who would consider taking early retirement and moving to the Moray coast to enjoy the good-life.

Heathrowinnit

20th Sep 2005, 07:52

Throw a Dyce should maybe come to the sunny South....he'd have his eyes opened I suspect. 3 miles between aircraft is expected, not an exception. This goes on all day every day....it's hard work sustaining that level of traffic and concentration, believe me the salary doesn't compensate for the staff shortages and extra stress that ensues because of it.

Still, if he's keen maybe he should come down and try it!

bekolblockage

20th Sep 2005, 16:22

Funny.
I don't recall seeing too many helicopters coming down the ILS at Heathrow the last time I was there.

throw a dyce

23rd Sep 2005, 21:16

D80/90,
You obviously can't get what I said.I stated that I have an excellent working relationship with Lossie,and ScATCC can be interesting but I help them out a lot.As for Ice Station,then it does have a history which isn't pleasant,and everything stated there was fact,like or not.If ABZ has a reputation for being difficult as far as ScATCC is concerned then that's the reason.

Heathrowinnit,

Sorry mate but my eyes don't need opened.Work in the FE with the big stuff,in an airport the same as LL and got twice $ as much as NATS offers.Keen? Well offer me HK rates,paid accomodation,travel every cycle, a company car, and who knows.Anyway you lot ain't interested as I'm over 40.

Bekol,
You're right about not too many wopters on the ILS at LL.Didn't see too many Tornados up their backsides either.Or R22's in the circuit etc.

Anyway I will stop my "rantings'' and get a life.How about some beers in the plaza soon?:cool:

Heathrowinnit

24th Sep 2005, 12:52

Over the hill at 40!!

I'm surprised to hear that NATS won't take you down South if you're over 40....I can assure you that this is unlikely (personal experience). If you want to get here I suggest you apply and then see if there is an age restriction.

With your experience of a twin runway airport that moves nearly as many aircraft as Gatwick you must be in with a shout!! ( sorry couldn't resist!)

Razors Edge

24th Sep 2005, 13:19

...of course Marshalls is run by an ex-serco GM and an ex-serco Safety Manager. How good's the service going to be?

bekolblockage

24th Sep 2005, 15:57

With your experience of a twin runway airport that moves nearly as many aircraft as Gatwick you must be in with a shout!! ( sorry couldn't resist!)

Touche.
Lets put Mainland Chinese airspace, operating metric levels and radar sep in km, speaking mainly Putonghua, 8 miles to the north and west and see how well they go though. ( sorry couldn't resist!)

parkfell

25th Sep 2005, 20:19

Any timescale as to when Inverness radar might be turning and burning? Can only be an improvement compared to the present Lossie radar arrangement.

And might CAS follow in time?

:cool:

arctic radar

28th Mar 2006, 09:18

Are the 'spies' able to report anything further regarding EGPE radar? All seems to have gone quiet.

Are Lossiemouth going to continue to provide the service on the ADRs to/from EGPE until the new service is in place? :confused:

NorthSouth

28th Mar 2006, 12:47

From the minutes of the last HIAL Board Meeting:HIAL had originally invited three suppliers to tender for the contract to install radar at Inverness airport. The project is separated into two elements phase one, which is to take the radar feed from Lossiemouth and set up a consol in the Inverness control tower with HIAL trained controllers, and phase two, to install a dedicated HIAL radar. One of the suppliers had taken no account of HIAL s long term view so was discounted. One of the remaining two suppliers then advised that it was not interested in continuing with discussions. The Board asked about the costs involved with phase one. Mr Lyon explained that the budget for 2006/07 provided for costs of £500,000 for phase one. This comprised costs for a project manager, staff costs for training, radar feed from Lossiemouth and capital costs of creating a consol in the control tower. The Board asked whether we would be able to recharge the cost to operators but was advised that this was unlikely. The Board requested a further paper which clearly outlined the costs and risks so it could consider in more detail.

AGEDMIL

2nd Apr 2006, 11:58

Well who ever it will be at Inverness - good luck! It can be a busy bit of airspace around there - not just a sleepy hollow! During the Neptune Warrior exercises with departures/recoveries to Lossimeouth and Kinloss - it can be quite sporty!:uhoh:

Egbert Bear

3rd Apr 2006, 15:47

HIAL's web site had been advertising an ATCO vacancy for EGPE for the past couple of weeks, looks like it has now been filled.

arctic radar

21st Jul 2006, 20:35

Quote from the Inverness Courier Friday July 21, 2006

'Seven-day radar cover should be in place at the airport by summer 2007,...'

Now, I know it's only a local paper and that journalists have a tendancy to mould throw-away, off-the-record remarks into facts, but is this true? :confused:

Have Hial placed any ads for radar ATCOs recently? I saw the ad for Radar rated Atcos with OJTI a few months back but did I miss any others? Has there been anything in Flight?

My understandning is that HIAL have no radar rated ATCOs (I may be wrong though). They'd have to go some to be off the ground next summer without some serious recruiting. Unless of course they've had a program of sending their own staff on APS courses for some time.

Do the spies know anything?

throw a dyce

21st Jul 2006, 23:26

The only HIAL unit that has radar is Sumburgh.That service is provided by NATS from Aberdeen.
Good luck to HIAL if they want to do it themselves or with Marshalls.Experienced approach radar controllers are difficult to come by....;)

NorthSouth

22nd Jul 2006, 10:05

Confused me when I passed through Inverness area on a FIS the other week and was given a discrete squawk - and it wasn't a Lossie squawk because Inverness changed my squawk prior to handover to Lossie.

What was that about?

NS

chevvron

22nd Jul 2006, 11:31

If you were given anything other than 7000 but not told you were identified, then it's just conspicuity for other units ie this aircraft is talking to Inverness.

NorthSouth

22nd Jul 2006, 15:56

If you were given anything other than 7000 but not told you were identified, then it's just conspicuity for other units ie this aircraft is talking to Inverness.Thanks for that. Wasn't aware Inverness had any conspicuity codes allocated and it's not listed in the AIP, unlike other non-radar units such as Carlisle and Dundee. Can't recall what the allocated squak was but AFAIR it wasn't one of the familiar 37xx Lossie ones.
NS

Red Four

22nd Jul 2006, 16:59

'Seven-day radar cover should be in place at the airport by summer 2007,...'

Glad to see that Inverness will be MARSHALLing their resources for this improvement.
Could be a historic moment when the first radar service is due to be provided, make sure you take a video-CAM; BRIDGE too far? Who knows!

stevieiz

23rd Jul 2006, 06:45

Nice to see HIAL are taking the move to radar for EGPE. Given the current level of traffic at the airport and the plans for the future, it's definately the way forward.

chevvron

23rd Jul 2006, 12:05

Being so close to Lossie/Kinloss, I would have thought radar would be essential for the safety of PT aircraft in the absence of regulated airspace, especially when carrying out iap's in IMC.

arctic radar

25th Jul 2006, 09:03

Any jobs in the pipeline? :hmm:
Can anyone 'in-the-know' at HIAL dilvulge any info? :E

niknak

25th Jul 2006, 14:54

HIAL have an excellent record of training their own atco's from scratch.

Although they're going to need a few experienced, fully qualified atcos to get the project up and running, I would hope that they can find the cash to invest in training some of the younger atco's who've served HIAL so well doing ADC/APC at some of the far flung points of the Scottish universe.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the age range at Inverness is not as young as it used to be. If that is the case, although they're entitled to be considered for radar training, they'd have to pass the apptitude tests and convince the company that they'd be a good investment.
That's not a dig at the older atco's - being old and decrepid myself - I know what the practicalities of such considerations are.

Highland Director

25th Jul 2006, 22:27

I've resisted posting here until now, but I have to respond to that niknak.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the age range at Inverness is not as young as it used to be. If that is the case, although they're entitled to be considered for radar training, they'd have to pass the apptitude tests and convince the company that they'd be a good investment.
That's not a dig at the older atco's - being old and decrepid myself - I know what the practicalities of such considerations are.
There are 8 full time Atcos at Inverness. The majority are mid 30s to mid 40s and would appreciate the opportunity to progress to APS. The remainder in the upper age bracket have no desire to undertake any such courses.
I would hope that they can find the cash to invest in training some of the younger atco's who've served HIAL so well doing ADC/APC at some of the far flung points of the Scottish universe.
It is worthwhile stating that each and every one of the Inverness staff have spent several years working at the more remote units of the HIAL empire. Indeed the only way to land an ATCO job at Inverness (until now) was to work up from the outstations.
Inverness is the busiest procedural ATC unit in the UK by far and for many years now, the ATS staff there have been 'making it work'. The Mon-Fri Lossie agreement is clumsy at best and dangerous at worst.
Weekends can be madness. 4 Instrument Holds and co-ordination with 3 different ACC sectors - 1 telephone line. GMC/TWR/APC - 1 frequency.
Have Hial placed any ads for radar ATCOs recently? I saw the ad for Radar rated Atcos with OJTI a few months back but did I miss any others? Has there been anything in Flight?
My understandning is that HIAL have no radar rated ATCOs (I may be wrong though). They'd have to go some to be off the ground next summer without some serious recruiting. Unless of course they've had a program of sending their own staff on APS courses for some time.

The only advertising HIAL did for Radar ATCOs was through their own website. From this, they managed to recruit 1 Radar Atco with limited experience. Other than that, they intend to train their own staff.
At this stage however, only one Inverness ATCO has been sent on and completed a radar course. HIAL ATS Management have had the opportunity to send 2 or 3 other Inverness ATCOs on courses but have elected not to. This has caused much consternation within various departments as the time keeps ticking away! :ugh:
Rumour says that the Lossie agreement will end early next year whether the Inverness radar project is ready or not. :uhoh:
'Seven-day radar cover should be in place at the airport by summer 2007,...' I doubt it! :(

Sage of the North

26th Jul 2006, 09:37

From yesterday's Press & Journal:

08:50 - 25 July 2006
Plans to introduce local radar cover at Inverness Airport will increase the numbers of flights and reduce noise, airport bosses claimed yesterday.

Highlands and Islands Airports Limited (Hial) has awarded a six-figure contract for the construction of a new radar room to Belgian-based airport specialists Barco.

It is hoped that seven-day radar cover will be in place by summer 2007, using specially-trained radar controllers based at the airport.

The airport's radar cover is currently provided Monday to Friday through an arrangement between National Air Traffic Services and the Ministry of Defence, using the radar heads at RAF Kinloss and RAF Lossiemouth.

Four Hial air traffic controllers are undergoing radar training and one man has already gained his qualification. Externally qualified radar controllers are also being recruited.

Earlier this year Hial signed a contract with Marshall Aviation Services to develop the radar project and is working closely with the UK Civil Aviation Authority's Safety Regulation Group on the scheme.

The project is being funded by Hial and has been awarded a grant of £50,000 from regional transport partnership Hitrans.

Inverness Airport manager James Walton said: "The arrangement we have had with the MoD since 1999 has served the airport well but as the airport continues to develop the time has come to move to providing our own radar.

"This is a major project that will offer significant benefits to the airlines, minimise delays to passengers, and mitigate the environmental impact of aircraft movements at Inverness in terms of reducing noise and emissions.

"We are working closely with the industry regulators, the MoD and our specialist consultants to ensure that this project is properly phased and ultimately delivers the radar service a rapidly expanding regional airport like Inverness requires. Barco has extensive experience of providing radar control rooms in Europe and we are delighted that their first UK project will be at Inverness."

Passenger numbers have been increasing at Inverness Airport in recent years as a result of the introduction of several new routes.

In the year to March 2006, Hial's 10 airports handled a record 1,153,000 passengers.

How many ATCOs will be required to provide radar cover for the full opening hours 7 days a week?

I imagine 5 ATCOs (one recruited radar controller with limited experience and four HIAL ATCOs who are being trained) will not be enough.:confused:

SotN

niknak

26th Jul 2006, 13:16

Highland D.

thanks for the information, I hope that everyone, where ever they are, is given equal consideration for further training.

As for radar seven days a week, 0600 - 2200, without checking the precise formulae, a minimum of 11 fully rated atco's would be required.
I would imagine that if HIAL pay scales are proportionately applied to radar scales, they'd have no problem recruiting enough experienced staff to get the ball rolling (if they advertise in Flight), I would hope that they also go balls out to train more than four of their own staff, wherever they eminate from.

flyingbricksh

5th Aug 2006, 19:15

Management have had the opportunity to send 2 or 3 other Inverness ATCOs on courses but have elected not to. This has caused much consternation within various departments as the time keeps ticking away!
From what I hear the reason for this is that they can't get the staff at the other units to release the said ATCO's for training:(
And the ATCO's that have the abillity for radar are going elswhere anyway:ok:
Still it will all come out in the wash:{ "or end in tears

chevvron

6th Aug 2006, 08:30

Gisajob I think you're needed!

Highland Director

6th Aug 2006, 10:07

Gisajob I think you're needed!
Please God spare us that!

In terms of Air Traffic Services however, the Hial vessel may very well be holed below the water line. With the number of ATCO vacancies which have been appearing in Flight lately, there are certainly 2 or 3 and possibly as many as half a dozen Hial Atcos with very itchy feet.

Shame really. The Inverness Radar debacle looks like it might ruin what was once a happy place to work.

Management are not in a position to treat ATS staff the way they have been of late. Hial is not a call centre, nor a bus depot and certainly not a military organisation. By the time the new management regime come to their senses, it'll probably be too late though.

Coventry, Liverpool, Ronaldsway.......take note!

chevvron

6th Aug 2006, 10:22

I was only being sarcastic; I nearly said the 'S' word!

happ1ness

6th Aug 2006, 18:11

Well said Highland Director. :D I hope someone from HIAL management reads these lines and realises the way things are going. The controllers at Inverness probably work at one of the busiest procedural units in UK, certainly at weekends. Additionally over the years having followed some of the threads on their Radar agreement with Lossiemouth they have probably made a difficult match work. It is a great shame when Radar is eventually coming to this airfield that management have not recognised the endeavours of all their staff to the degree of causing so much unrest!:ugh:

As for Gisajob would he have anyone to put in place? He's been very quiet of late.

throw a dyce

6th Aug 2006, 22:26

Gisajob,;) ;) ;) ;) :8 :8 :8 :cool: :cool: :cool: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
Comon Gissa where are you.Got any ATC contracts lately?:rolleyes:

throw a dyce

6th Aug 2006, 22:37

HD,
As I say experienced approach radar controllers are very hard to come by.If you guys decide to look elsewhere then good luck mate:D
We look across to the west there and often it's :mad: I don't like the look of that.
Far too much military around.On radar you'll C:mad: ap yourself.:ok:

chevvron

7th Aug 2006, 07:33

That's why I avoided the 'S' word; SERCo don't seem to have too many radar rated ATCO's for airfields, and where they do, they seem to discourage them from actually using radar, presumably so that ADC and APP can be done by the one controller.
As a 'radar only' approach controller, I have a great deal of respect for 'procedural onlys' considering the amount of traffic they can shift without radar.

NorthSouth

7th Aug 2006, 07:54

We look across to the west there and often it's :mad: I don't like the look of that.
Far too much military around.On radar you'll C:mad: ap yourself.:ok:
But surely the plan was to introduce controlled airspace as well as radar? Without CAS, as you say TAD, controllers will often look at the screen and wish they didn't have radar because they'll have to vector their traffic all over the place. With a procedural service ignorance is bliss!
Anyone know what's happening to the Inverness CAS proposal?
NS

chevvron

7th Aug 2006, 07:58

Probably delayed because the main objectors to CAS will be the military, considering the proximity of Lossie and Kinloss.

NorthSouth

7th Aug 2006, 08:21

Probably delayed because the main objectors to CAS will be the military, considering the proximity of Lossie and Kinloss.Sweet irony!

happ1ness

7th Aug 2006, 18:38

But does Lossiemouth Radar really want to continue doing the Inverness Radar task as Inverness becomes busier? Depending on what Airspace dimensions are decided on will depend on how restrictive the Military will see the perspective of airspace restrictions?
Additionally who will eventually do the LARS task?

Gisajob

7th Aug 2006, 20:36

Hi Happ1ness

You are spot on. This is/was an ideal opportunity for both HIAL and Safeskys to develop Inverness. We are the easijet of the ATC world. Quality low cost operations which deliver. Sadly HIAL did not include us in the bidding process (too late they said) and Marshalls (with Chris Stock) will manage their transition to a radar environment.

The UK ATC contracting world is a real 'Catch 22' situation (as Gibraltar, Wattisham, Birmingham and Gloucester have shown). In all of those airport contracts Safeskys was invited to bid, was totally technically compliant at the lowest price, yet we have never been awarded our due prize.

Who is missing out here? The eventual payers for the services, the airports and most important for the readers of this site, the ATCOs who would have been recruited and encouraged by a company which is managed by ATCOs (not bean counters), and which understands ATCOs and would treat them properly.

happ1ness

8th Aug 2006, 13:34

Gisajob I think chevvron mentioned you first in this thread. Any mention of the "S" word is I trust totally said in jest !!!!!!

Lifes2good

23rd Aug 2006, 21:32

So Highland Director have the lifeboats been launched or are the pumps holding their own !!!

Best of luck to all at EGPE !!!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :)

NorthSouth

23rd Aug 2006, 23:33

So Highland Director...Some of us are old enough to remember Highland Radar. With typical aviation logic it was based at RAF Buchan!
NS

Lifes2good

24th Aug 2006, 07:51

Yes indeed NorthSouth would that have been in the day's when the North Scottish sector was all procedural and life was good for all of us ????
Remember it well!:)

NorthSouth

24th Aug 2006, 08:40

and BEA Viscounts used their registrations as callsigns...

Lifes2good

24th Aug 2006, 08:54

GAMON & GAMOG happy days !!!!

NorthSouth

24th Aug 2006, 09:18

Ah well you've got me there LTG, I only go back as far as G-AOHG

055166k

24th Aug 2006, 14:30

G-AMON & G-AMOG were Cambrian when they operated the Prestwick feeders to EGPH/EGAA and were in BOAC colours [I think].

Lifes2good

24th Aug 2006, 18:24

Yes true the EGPH carried on up to Sumburgh if I remember correctly.:)

NorthSouth

24th Aug 2006, 18:30

I think it was Aberdeen. Even in the good old days of massively subsidised air transport I don't think BOAC would have funded a return VC7 trip to Sumburgh for the odd single pax. Lovely aircraft though:). I think one of them (MOG/MON) is about to go the museum at East Fortune?
NS

Highland Director

25th Aug 2006, 00:52

I'm glad that you guys have such fond memories! :)

By the sound of things I've only been in this game for a relatively short period compared to some, but I have some fond memories also. When I started in the frozen north, every scheduled aircraft was a box with wings - the glorious shed!. They still fly of course, but these days they carry the mail rather than the old self-loading freight.
Back to the real issue though.....:E

Last week, Stornoway airport came within a 'ball-hair' of closure - and I don't mean the Sratcoh type. Only direct action by SRG prevented a situation whereby the airport would have had no SATCO and no accountibility. :uhoh:
The sheer arrogance of ATS management was willing to risk the integrity of the unit through nothing more than stubborness and a determination not to be dictated to by 'ATCO upstarts'. :hmm:

The tragic irony in all of this is that the "ATCO upstarts" concerned have been HIAL employees for eons and actually have the company interests at heart.

I have enjoyed working for HIAL for 9 years now and believe it or not I'd like to give the company the rest of my career. But there are too many :mad: in postions of authority now, with no aviation/ATC experience. A big cloud of :mad: is forming over HIAL and anyone within spitting distance is liable to be covered in it before long. That is why I have submitted applications to Liverpool, Isle of Man and Belfact City. I know of at least 2 others who have done the same and I'm convinced there will be others besides. We wont all get jobs, but with HIAL staffing already extremely tight, even 2 or 3 leaving will create major problems.
Of course, the Bus Conductor will no doubt employ a few dozen drivers from Poland to replace us. The Call Centre Queen will write up terms and conditions accordingly and the Military man will blow his trumpet loudly in the corner until his face is purple.
By the way, HIAL are under-going rebranding. HIAL will no longer be HIAL. They will be HIA (pronounced "HI") But the best is yet to come.....

There are plans for the new Approach Radar service at Inverness to reflect its future status as a multi-function radar approach service for several HIA airfields. Therefore it will not be "Inverness Approach" but "HI Radar". So there you have it chaps.

"Hi Radar, this is Midland 692U" :D

What a farce...

Yours mightily :mad: off,

Highland D.

bottom rung

25th Aug 2006, 05:45

Hi HD
If you fancy staying in the frozen north I hear Scatsta are running short of ATCOs.... but then you may find that the grass isn't always greener elsewhere! If PPrune is to be believed, morale at a couple of your other possible destinations isn't brilliant either. Best of luck whichever you choose.

Hooligan Bill

25th Aug 2006, 06:52

That is why I have submitted applications to Liverpool, Isle of Man and Belfact City. I know of at least 2 others who have done the same and I'm convinced there will be others besides. We wont all get jobs, but with HIAL staffing already extremely tight, even 2 or 3 leaving will create major problems.

Situation was similar when a ten years or so back when a couple of us left. They managed to stumble on then and I expect it will be the same this time. At least the pay is half decent these days.

chevvron

25th Aug 2006, 07:46

Makes you wonder why NATS sold HIAL in the first place.

happ1ness

25th Aug 2006, 08:17

Think they thought they could save considerable amounts of money!!!
Hasn't happened really. If all is to be taken into consideration are more fingers needed to shore up the HIAL dyke?
Good luck HD with your endeavours.:) :ugh:

Hooligan Bill

25th Aug 2006, 08:28

Makes you wonder why NATS sold HIAL in the first place.

They never actually sold it and it was also a part of the CAA rather than NATS. In 1986 the CAA tried to sell off the group for a penny. Although there were companies interested in the money making airports at Inverness and Sumburgh, the deal was all the airports, which as a whole just about broke even due to subsidies.

In order to cut costs the group became known as HIAL, a wholly owned subsidiary of the CAA. This allowed them to employ staff on different contracts to CAA/NATS staff (my basic ATCO wage when I left 10 years or so ago was about £18K). To a certain extent this worked well because the company could still take NATS staff (who were interested) to plug any staff shortages, although there was no right of movement the other way.

The big problem arose though when the privitisation of CAA/NATS became part of the agenda. There was absolutely no way this could happen when part of the company was attracting large subsidies from both the UK Government and the EU. Hence ownership of the company was passed from the CAA to the Scottish Office.

NorthSouth

25th Aug 2006, 18:36

There are plans for the new Approach Radar service at Inverness to reflect its future status as a multi-function radar approach service for several HIA airfields. Therefore it will not be "Inverness Approach" but "HI Radar"Wow, so they're buying over-the-horizon radar are they? Very futuristic. Or is there some other way that a radar at Lossiemouth can see even as far as Wick to provide a radar service?
NS

BLAKEYS MATE

31st Aug 2006, 21:16

The Stagecoach wizard will wave his magic wand and the Magic Circle will all stand to attention and believe the radar project can be achieved and completed on time. :D Highland Director is right, HIAL is no longer a pleasant working environment with politics outstripping the day to day business of operating an ATC unit. If some of us do leave the brown stuff WILL hit the fan and very quickly, we're not all bonded, watch this space.......:ugh:

Sage of the North

8th Sep 2006, 09:16

Anyone able to update the situation with Inverness Radar - is the equipment in place and staffing issues resolved?

If radar is to be in place, during full opening hours 7 days a week, by summer I suppose the project's progressing apace and most staff needed are recruited and currently training to some degree.

An earlier post hinted that the Lossie agreement may end early next year whether the Inverness radar project is ready or not - is that likely? :confused:

I understand delays of more than 30 mins are common on the ground during weekends and at other times Lossie aren't providing a service. Can't see the airlines accepting that for long. :*

SotN

Lifes2good

8th Sep 2006, 16:02

"I understand delays of more than 30 mins are common on the ground during weekends and at other times Lossie aren't providing a service. Can't see the airlines accepting that for long."

A lot of the delays at times are unfortunately caused when QS are doing the Radar service. Certainly seen a few aircraft held up during the week due to QS not being willing to depart aircraft! From a pilots point of view weekend's can actually be less delayed than during the week, especially in good weather. VFR aircraft are just passed as traffic info and not required to squawk ident before almost every movement. Probably no fault of Lossiemouth though they have their rules to obey.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Kiltie

8th Sep 2006, 16:32

Hear hear Lifes2good. The Lossie agreement and its peculiar restrictions is now commercially penalising HIA and its airline operators with the dreadful delays it causes.

I'm sure the most tempting thing the INV ATCOs could do is leave the QS phone off the hook, launch everyone and go home!

Lifes2good

8th Sep 2006, 16:42

Thanks for that Kiltie, I'm sure a few of the pilots around Inverness also feel the same way at times.
Remember though it was only an interim agreement that has probably overstayed its course.

Highland Director

12th Sep 2006, 16:36

Anyone able to update the situation with Inverness Radar - is the equipment in place and staffing issues resolved?
There is no equipment in place; not one single piece. :uhoh:
If radar is to be in place, during full opening hours 7 days a week, by summer I suppose the project's progressing apace and most staff needed are recruited and currently training to some degree.
HIAL have recruited ONE 'experienced' ATCO (6 months Approach radar experience to be precise) - Not yet valid in TWR/APP at EGPE.

Marshall Aerospace are providing ONE ATCO on a 9 month contract - Not yet started UTP at EGPE
ONE other ex Scatsta ATCO originally recruited for Kirkwall who holds an APS rating is being transferred to Inverness - Not yet appeared never mind started UTP
ONE other established ATCO from EGPE has been sent on and successfully completed an APS course. :ok: Now working toward validating that rating at EGSC
The above 4 are the only staff that will realisticly be in a position to provide an APS service next year. That is of course assuming that the equipment is in place and approval is granted and there are no training foul ups either before or during the greenfield training. ;)
An earlier post hinted that the Lossie agreement may end early next year whether the Inverness radar project is ready or not - is that likely?

Yes absolutely.
I understand delays of more than 30 mins are common on the ground during weekends and at other times Lossie aren't providing a service. Can't see the airlines accepting that for long.

Delays are common on any day of the week sadly. Everybody in ATC at EGPE and Lossie try to do their best. People are quick to point the finger at Lossie but the problems go beyond that. The airport has suffered for years due to a lack of infrastructure. The reality is that HIAL has spent years scratching it's publicly funded ar*e and done naff all about it. :(

Are those roosting chickens that I can see making their way home? :E

leftwind downhand

14th Sep 2006, 18:02

HD,

It appears that all is not well in the frozen north. Judging from what has gone before in this thread I gather that it is not simply a matter of the project being miss managed by HIAL.:ugh: There appears to be a deeper rooted problem with Management. Those of us in the south keep hearing whispers but nothing concrete. Care to enlighten us:confused: I have always fancied seeing out my time up there but reading between the lines would think twice at the moment.

Highland Director

15th Sep 2006, 10:02

It appears that all is not well in the frozen north. Judging from what has gone before in this thread I gather that it is not simply a matter of the project being miss managed by HIAL. There appears to be a deeper rooted problem with Management. Those of us in the south keep hearing whispers but nothing concrete. Care to enlighten us I have always fancied seeing out my time up there but reading between the lines would think twice at the moment.

Where does one start?

Well.....

The HIAL board appointed a new MD last year. He has a degree in Transport technology and was previously the MD of Stagecoach East having worked his way up from depot manager (hence the numerous bus conducter jibes).
When he arrived at HIAL, he quickly created a stir by sacking two senior managers. Not long ago, the operations manager resigned. His departure left HIAL without any credible authority on Airport Operations. The current Manager of ATS (whose operational experience in civil ATC consists of a handful of years on a remote Hebridean island) has made a catalogue of poor decisions. Many staff at EGPE and beyond have grievances over many issues.
Last week, HIA anounced the appointment of a new operations manager before the internal vacancy notice had even closed. It is little wonder the majority of staff don't trust the regime.

The MD is on a mission to errode the current company Terms & Conditions and in addition to his intoduction of a second rate T&S policy, he has proposals to introduce a new redundancy policy with reduced benefits. The ultimate goal is to cut costs no matter what. He would appear to have little regard for regulators, viewing certain requirements as unneccessary expenditure. Staff at EGPE who are being de-skilled by being forced into 'tower-only' positions fear for their jobs.

There is no communication whatsoever from management throughout all this and all the long serving staff (not just ATCOs) feel well and truly shafted.

I hope that is sufficient enlightenment! :)

055166k

15th Sep 2006, 21:18

I do have some sympathy with management [puts on steel helmet and flak jacket]. While some of the measures seem completely out of order and questionable on the legal front.....from what you describe anyway....I am not too surprised. I did a tour in H&I and I worked alone on a five and a half day week.....loved every minute.
I visited the place more recently and found a situation beyond credibilty....a raft of controllers and reliefs.....a Fire service doubled in size.....about half the traffic level....and the actual aircraft significantly smaller in size and passenger load. The economics of a mad-house.
On the other hand there appears to be an airport run on traditional H&I mentality that is clearly no longer an H&I airfield.....it is a busy and expanding regional airport that requires a different mindset.
I think market forces and operator pressure might be employed to good use in bringing home reality. By the way, I hope the team are union members....what does the union say?

Hooligan Bill

16th Sep 2006, 08:05

I visited the place more recently and found a situation beyond credibilty....a raft of controllers and reliefs.....a Fire service doubled in size.....about half the traffic level....and the actual aircraft significantly smaller in size and passenger load. The economics of a mad-house.

Rightly or wrongly, depending on your point of view, this has been brought about by regulation, SCRATCOH and the removal of CAA derogations for the RFFS being the obvious ones. However, the airlines also bear some of the responsibility with their demand for longer opening hours and Sunday openings.

055166k

16th Sep 2006, 10:18

Hooligan Bill....Good points made....thanks for that.
Now we're getting nearer to the root problem. Completely ineffective management has failed to grasp the unique qualities needed to run H&I airfields. Regulations seem to be applied in a one-size-fits-all methodolgy; surely the ATC regulation needs of an "Inverness" are not the same as a quiet remote location that has only one or two movements per hour. When H&I management realise the penalties of such draconian rules and start to negotiate special exemptions from inappropriate application then there will be light at the end of the tunnel. Inverness should be the crown jewel but instead it is starved of proper resources. You can't run a major regional airport on a shoestring budget that also has to support money-hungry remote airfields that operate to provide grossly uneconomical social needs.
Perhaps there is an argument for a Scottish CAA as part of the Scottish Parliament that is far more in tune with reality.
At one location you seem to have controllers that work busy Approach procedural [in my view the most demanding of all ATC disciplines] and at another location you have one controller who works the one inbound and takes a relief break to allow the second controller to work the one outbound.
Time to get political!

falcon777

17th Sep 2006, 13:29

I have been following this thread with interest as I am amongst those in HIAL (or HI!):confused: who are either actively seeking alternative employment or desperately trying to ride out the 'storm' by keeping our heads below the firing line.
We all know that the Bus Conductor Bully, his Employment Law 'bending' Queen and Monty Python Sqdn Leader have utilised every underhand tactic in the book to get what THEY want. Then the BCB's Spin Doctor creates a gloriously fictious piece of blurb for the press, telling all and sundry about BCB's fantastic progress. Omitted from this blurb is the fact that BCB's apparant success has come at the cost of many well respected and experienced people being driven out of the company and many of HIALs assets being left to rot around the patch.
In his short reign, The Almighty BCB has single handedly managed to alienate himself from anyone (and everyone) who has an ounce of credibility in the Aviaiton world...to name but a few he has :mad: off ....NATS, the CAA SRG Lead Inspector, various influential Scottish Exec members, the Unions, the HI Chairman and Board, DfT Security and last but not least, 99.9% of HI staff!:oh::=
The INV Radar Project is yet another example of BCB's ineptness and inability to actually listen to those who know better. So take heart HD from what I hear, I don't think it will be too long before we see a VN for the Managing Director's post?:ok: Come back Cpt Bob?????:oh:
F777

Lifes2good

21st Sep 2006, 17:53

Can anyone from the Highlands let us know if there is anything people can do to stop this malaise that appears to be at the heart of this thread? Is it really as bad as the picture that is being painted? Surely someone from HIAL Management must be reading this thread? Are they all just keeping their head in the sand or just not interested in their staff? Surely the ATC staff must be finding it hard to carry on as normal with so much happening or are they nearly all keeping their heads down???:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

SRG fan club

21st Sep 2006, 20:30

The picture's every bit as bad as being painted. Controllers who've been with HIAL for years, been through the bad times before and stuck with them, are now looking to leave. Sadly HIAL Head Office Management's heads are collectively in the sand. If they are interested in their staff they've an odd way of communicating this. ATC staff are finding it hard to carry on as normal with all the unrest within the company. The regulator is only too aware of this - low morale does not engender a good safety culture. One ATCO is leaving HIAL at the end of this month, a few have job offers in hand and others have job interviews pending. Before the year end it's likely airports will have to shut for periods due to staff shortages. The remaining staff will receive flak from the travelling public and press for this and what little morale is left will go. Unlike the BCB they don't have a PR guru to make them look good. :{

HIAL ATC staff are not alone in suffering, the company's Airport Fire Service is similarly affected by the malaise and are losing staff rapidly. :*

As far as Inverness Radar is concerned HIAL Head Office Management stubbornly purport it'll be in place by 31 March 2007.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: Not a chance.:=

falcon777

22nd Sep 2006, 12:41

Hi Lifes2Good, thanks for your concern and in answer to your questions, Can anyone from the Highlands let us know if there is anything people can do to stop this malaise that appears to be at the heart of this thread? What can we do when the main man is the root of the problem and his :mad: is flame proof?
It doesn't matter how many times he abuses his position of authority or intimidates the minions, if we, the so called staff 'rebels' dare to voice our opinions, BCB arranges 'private consultations' with us so that it will always be a case of 'our word against his'! Once summoned to the inner sanctum we are told to put up, shut up or ELSE!! I'm afraid most of us still need to pay the mortgage!!!
Is it really as bad as the picture that is being painted? Unfortunately the only way morale in the company can be ressurected is by getting rid of the rotten apple and his hangers on!!:\ We are all waiting for the moment he trips up and makes one enemy too many.:)
Surely someone from HIAL Management must be reading this thread? But do they care? Yes, but only about preserving their own heads. :yuk:
Are they all just keeping their head in the sand or just not interested in their staff? Some have never taken their heads out of the sand and many of the ones who actually showed signs of caring about the staff have already left.
Surely the ATC staff must be finding it hard to carry on as normal with so much happening or are they nearly all keeping their heads down???:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: It is VERY hard and BCB has made it more difficult by falling out with the regulators!! ATS used to have a good rapport with CAA SRG but the Monty Python Sqdn Leader recently banned us from having any direct communications :suspect: with SRG. :ugh: :ugh:
However the light at the end of the tunnel is that the CAA and other government agencies are beginning to see through the :mad: ! Bring on the Showdown!!!!:D

Highland Director

26th Sep 2006, 09:36

Hi Lifes2Good, thanks for your concern and in answer to your questions, It is VERY hard and BCB has made it more difficult by falling out with the regulators!! ATS used to have a good rapport with CAA SRG but the Monty Python Sqdn Leader recently banned us from having any direct communications :suspect: with SRG. :ugh: :ugh:
However the light at the end of the tunnel is that the CAA and other government agencies are beginning to see through the :mad: ! Bring on the Showdown!!!!:D
Fabulous! Well said falcon777 :D I couldn't have made a better summary. :ok:

055166k

26th Sep 2006, 20:15

Couple of tips for you:
1. NEVER attend an "interview" alone.......it is your right to be accompanied.
2. You have an absolute right to contact the regulator.....your licence is issued by CAA and not by your employer.
By the way...what on earth is the union doing?....if anything?

Lifes2good

27th Sep 2006, 16:43

Well said 055166k surely the powers that be SRG must be very concerned about these state of affairs.
I'm sure all the HIAL ATCO's are reading this thread with great interest, perhaps firemen too. The advice given by 011166k is not to be ignored.

Good luck to all who sail in the Good Ship HIAL.

falcon777

29th Sep 2006, 08:15

Couple of tips for you:
1. NEVER attend an "interview" alone.......it is your right to be accompanied.
In HIAL we no longer have the same 'rights' we used to:( BCB has ZERO respect for anyone, regardless or rank or experience, we are just mere numbers to him and he takes special delight in trampling the 'rebels' underfoot as his Employment Law Bending Queen covers his :mad: .
2. You have an absolute right to contact the regulator.....your licence is issued by CAA and not by your employer.
That is our understanding too, but we know we would be disciplined for disobeying a direct order from a member of the Senior Management Team:=
By the way...what on earth is the union doing?....if anything? He has fallen out with them too! They have had numerous complaints, but with his Queen digging him out of the :mad: BCB has managed to avoid being caught, so far:ugh: :ugh: The Unions are lying in wait and when dinner comes, they will rip BCB to shreds!!!
Also SRG are majorly clamping down! That's why we expect a 'show down'

Meantime his bully tactics and scare mongering means an increased number of valued members of HIAL staff are 'speaking with their feet' and walking! Some haven't even given more than a days notice!

As for having enough qualified personnel to cover the Radar project in early 2007, pigs will fly first!!!
F777

ADCAPP

2nd Oct 2006, 21:21

The latest installment in the tale is that the previously mentioned Squadron Leader in charge of ATS (who banned ATCO's from ever communicating with SRG:mad: :oh: := ) has now, in turn, been banned from doing the same by the MD:confused: :confused: :confused: .......A SOMEWHAT ILL-ADVISED AND DANGEROUS GAME TO PLAY!, watch this space. Messing the Regulators about will not go unnoticed, especially if you are caught trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

Stay tuned, the fireworks are going to be fantastic.

London Mil

3rd Oct 2006, 07:01

Just out of interest, why is he known as the 'Squadron Leader'? A quick look at his internet resume indicates a career starting in 1971 in the in the DTI; I see no military links.

That said, I agree that an individual is licensed by the CAA and therefore has a right to approach the Authority about any issue which is encompassed by the terms, conditions or responsibilities of his/her license.

Seat13C

3rd Oct 2006, 18:33

Is it still safe to fly in and out of HIAL airports? Those in the towers and fire stations will be professional to the end but can they be expected to operate to their full potential with all this going on over their heads? Especially if this is going on hand in hand with (training?) budget cuts. I am concerned this will turn out to be a flight safety issue but everyone is too scared (and I'm not surprised) to report it. Has anyone thought to use the anonymous CHIRP system?

falcon777

3rd Oct 2006, 18:52

LM

I think you must be mixing up the Sqnd Leaders. Ours is definitely an ex RAF man and I believe he used to visit some of the HIAL units during military activations prior to joining the company.

NEWS FLASH Two more HIAL personnel resigned within the last 24 hours. :eek: Another ATCO and the Company Fire Officer! Both have found an alternative to the current HIAL drudgery and I know I am not alone in thinking " I wish it was me!!":{ Also, I believe the staffing situation over in the 'west' is reaching crisis point and guess what management are doing? Sweet :mad: because BCB is on AL:ugh:

BTW, SRG ARE aware of what's going on;) :ok:

F777

Highland Director

3rd Oct 2006, 19:37

NEWS FLASH Two more HIAL personnel resigned within the last 24 hours. Another ATCO and the Company Fire Officer! Both have found an alternative to the current HIAL drudgery and I know I am not alone in thinking " I wish it was me!!" Also, I believe the staffing situation over in the 'west' is reaching crisis point and guess what management are doing? Sweet because BCB is on AL
Ho Ho! Would the last person to leave HIAL please leave the lights on a 15 minute timer switch! :}

ADCAPP

4th Oct 2006, 12:44

The company would probably try to get a dispensation from the CAA to have the lights switched off after 5 mins.....to save on electricity!:p :ok: ;)

niknak

5th Oct 2006, 22:15

Direct contact with SRG by HIAL ATCOs has been going on for many years.
When I was with the company, there was so little faith in management that the Head office was bypassed by the ATC staff as a matter of course.

It would appear that, as ever, the head office management are only interested in asking "how high?" when the puppet of a MD says "Mc Jump".

What HIAL really needs is to be put into the private sector, then the taxpayers of the UK (not just Scotland) would really see how much money it costs to run this poorly managed and unnecessary organisation.

But I don't suppose that will ever happen....

KintailWalker

8th Oct 2006, 11:24

I've been following this thread with much interest... :bored:

I am definitely looking forward to the fireworks :ok: Let's keep our fingers crossed that the brown stuff hits the air conditioning and the de-sanitation team can clean up quickly, without causing TOO much more stress...

P***ing off SRG, let alone everyone else and their dog, is never a good idea.

:D :D Well done, that there management! :D :D

Hang in there, guys! It can surely only get better... can't it?

Egbert Bear

8th Oct 2006, 16:24

Just been looking at the HIAL web site and guess what, they have vacancies (plural) for non-radar ATCO's !!!!

Gisajob

8th Oct 2006, 19:43

Isn’t this saga sad. No ATCO can take any pleasure from reading such a sorry story of ATCO mis-management, but have we been here before ???

Why do we have continuing stories on pprune of non ATCO managers cocking up the vital management of the only two professions who can close airports (ATC and RFFS).

ATCOs need to be lead not ordered about. Most ATCOs are bright individuals who will respond to good leadership. When will airport managers realise that management of ATCOs is totally different from managing baggage handlers or security staff ??

I despair

Highland Director

12th Oct 2006, 12:22

http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=149664&command=displayContent&sourceNode=149490&contentPK=15659898&folderPk=85696&pNodeId=149221
I was particularly impressed by the following quote..."Hial in particular seems to operate in a very cavalier fashion with no regard for the community. In discussions over this matter, and previous dealings with Hial, the arrogance and insensitivity displayed by their management has been incredible."

Sounds like a fair summary to me. ;)

Highland Director

12th Oct 2006, 13:01

A radar project update has been issued.

Good progress continues to be made towards the planned Greenfield Radar Operational date of 31 March 2007. Fantastic! :)
The whole Phase 1 project will be reviewed in December 2006 by which time we should have training results available and a clearer picture of where we are - So the picture is unclear and we don't know where we are? :confused:
it must be recognised that certain aspects have yet to be delivered such as the radar room and radar data. I think that says it all really. :ugh:

I suppose we shouldn't really fret over such trivial matters. Radar data....? Approach radar room.....? Minor minor details really..... :hmm:
Can it get any more farcical? :{

NorthSouth

12th Oct 2006, 19:33

Good progress continues to be made towards the planned Greenfield Radar Operational date of 31 March 2007Surely a mistake? AFAIK they haven't got the money to buy a new radar yet, let alone ordered one. To get one in place and operational by 31-3-07 they'd have to be installing it on site NOW. 31-3-07 is supposed to be the operational date for the feed to a radar room at EGPE, not the new radar.
But in among all this there is also the question, what about controlled airspace? Sure, they won't get CAS until they have radar, but having radar - especially a feed from a head 25nm away - without CAS still leaves a lot to be desired. We now have announcements of yet more new routes - Southampton, NEMA, Belfast City - and CAA stats show Inverness handling more ATMs now than Bournemouth and DTV, both of which have CAS, and almost as many as Prestwick, which got its CAS back in 2003.
NS

niknak

12th Oct 2006, 22:01

Surely a mistake? AFAIK they haven't got the money to buy a new radar yet, let alone ordered one. To get one in place and operational by 31-3-07 they'd have to be installing it on site NOW. 31-3-07 is supposed to be the operational date for the feed to a radar room at EGPE, not the new radar.
But in among all this there is also the question, what about controlled airspace? Sure, they won't get CAS until they have radar, but having radar - especially a feed from a head 25nm away - without CAS still leaves a lot to be desired. We now have announcements of yet more new routes - Southampton, NEMA, Belfast City - and CAA stats show Inverness handling more ATMs now than Bournemouth and DTV, both of which have CAS, and almost as many as Prestwick, which got its CAS back in 2003.
NS

You think that Inverness have problems at the moment, these are a walk in the park compared to the application for CAS.

Firstly, radar with SSR is required for the entire opening hours of the airport with a guarantee that full staffing will be available.
Todays CAA stats count for nothing, DAP will consider such things when the above criteria is satisfied.
There are a miriad of organisations who have to be informed, consulted and kept updated, continuous proof of tis is required.

I doubt that HIAL have the nouse or competence to do the above, unless of course, they employ an outside contractor who knows what they are doing.

NorthSouth

13th Oct 2006, 18:14

I doubt that HIAL have the nouse or competence to do the above, unless of course, they employ an outside contractor who knows what they are doing.It's fair to say that very few ATSUs in the bearpit that UK ATC provision has become have the resources and knowledge to compile, submit and manage a CAS application. They're too busy controlling! But HIAL is publicly-owned, and if their owners the Scottish Exec are so keen to throw taxpayers money at Ryanair, Emirates, Delta etc in order to subsidise business travellers and Michael O'Leary's pockets, one would imagine that their officials might regard the 100% funding of a CAS application as a sensible contribution to the safety of the public who they are encouraging - paying! - to travel by air. CAS at Inverness has been under discussion for YEARS. What have they been doing?
NS

Single Spey

13th Oct 2006, 21:12

CAS at Inverness has been under discussion for YEARS. What have they been doing?
NS

AFAIK last time they applied they put forward a number of airproxes as justification. Most would have been outside the proposed CAS, many were non-risk bearing and the rest were contributed to by the Inverness controllers. :ugh: Although Inverness is getting busier I don't believe that there is the density of other traffic in the area to justify CAS. Most of the military will be low level unless on approach to Kinloss or Lossie and they should be under a service from Lossie anyway. The fact that most inbounds to Inverness now fly stonking great instrument patterns in VMC when previously they carried out visuals suggests that the evidence is hoped to be gathered by increasing the exposure time over the Moray Firth to fast jets operating into and out of the Tain ranges. := Wouldn't be surprised if some of the recent moves to close Tain were also being prompted by those with Inverness interests at heart.

As it stands, radar at Inverness and a LARS service in the area should in itself, if properly applied and implemented, go a long way to maintaining safety in the area without the restrictions that CAS would inevitably bring. :ok:

Kiltie

14th Oct 2006, 03:45

"The fact that most inbounds to Inverness now fly stonking great instrument patterns in VMC when previously they carried out visuals"

Would you care to qualify this?

NorthSouth

14th Oct 2006, 09:51

And how many of the airproxes involved IFR inbounds declaring a visual? I suspect the reason they all fly the procedure now is because with increasing traffic levels and no radar the controllers can't be sure where conflicting traffic is. I've had one unnerving experience of flying a VFR transit across Inverness when an Easyjet was cleared for a visual, apparently descending through a hole in the cloud below which I was flying. The only thing giving accurate information on our proximity in that situation was the 737's TCAS. Not nice!

As for "Most of the military will be low level" that's precisely the problem - not speaking to anyone, VFR, autonomous, very fast, and likely to change heading/altitude at the drop of a hat. Not quite so much of a problem now than when Inverness had lots of SH360s, but ask Doncaster or Prestwick or Norwich controllers what it's like maintaining separation on FJs crossing the final approach path.
NS

jack-oh

14th Oct 2006, 18:00

This is a fascinating thread, and one that doesn't surprise me having had to negotiate with HIAL in my previous Job.

It beggars belief that since 1998 when the requirement for radar service provision was called for by the airlines operating to Inverness (primarily to deconflict with Mil ac) and was agreed to by the RAF,CAA, NATS and MOD, as an interim measure, that no progress has been made by HIAL to sort themselves out.

However, since then the amount of IFR GAT traffic going into Inverness has continually grown and grown.

As I understand it, come what may, the RAF will pull out of the Inverness task on 01 Apr 07. I don't blame them at all; the level of ac being worked now is far beyond what it was at the tasks conception and is likely to continue to grow, if recent press releases are anything to go by.

chevvron

16th Oct 2006, 09:57

Another problem for CAS at Inverness is within the consultation process; the major objector to ANY CAS in this area would be MOD, followed by BGA, both of whom would have to be included in the 'informal consultation' carried out prior to the actual application. I've done this process several times, yes it does take a lot of man-hours and however meticulous you are, DAP always find something amiss with your methodology eg insufficient environmental consultation.
Provision of LARS in class G airspace is suitable as a short term measure, especially if you can make it a service that's useful to all pilots; that would give some measure of a 'known traffic' environment, but wouldn't of course, mitigate for the low flyers suddenly pulling up from low level, 7001 or not!

chevvron

17th Oct 2006, 11:07

Forgot to mention; any airspace change will take between a 8 and 12 months from commencement of informal consultation to implimentation, so if the process were started now, it might be established by July next year at the earliest provided there are no objections to hold up the procedure.

Single Spey

17th Oct 2006, 11:55

... it might be established by July next year at the earliest provided there are no objections to hold up the procedure.:=
Surely you mean if a case can be made to support it.

chevvron

17th Oct 2006, 13:05

True, the DofT and DAP have specific criterea for regulated airspace which they (AFAIK) won't publish, it's up to you to fulfil them without knowing what they are!!

Highland Director

17th Oct 2006, 17:36

Controlled airspace at Inverness is years away and could never happen anyway without a robust radar control service being in place. Heaven knows when Inverness will actually have the latter. No staff - no radar data - no radar equipment - no contracts - no approval........
If you are eagerly anticipating CAS at Inverness - expect a long wait :(
If the idea of CAS upsets you, then sleep well. ;)

Lifes2good

17th Oct 2006, 20:03

Posted by jack-oh :
"As I understand it, come what may, the RAF will pull out of the Inverness task on 01 Apr 07. I don't blame them at all; the level of ac being worked now is far beyond what it was at the tasks conception and is likely to continue to grow, if recent press releases are anything to go by."
Just out of Interest has anyone thought what will happen if the military do pull out of providing the service at the end of March 2007. Surely the airlines will be very seriously concerned? Even if the Military are required by their bosses to continue the service will they still have the staff there to provide it? Lastly who will pay for the task continuing? if HIAL have to pay surely it will be more money taken from their radar budget ??
This thread seems to ask more questions than are being answered but it certainly makes interesting reading. I wonder if HIAL are making provisions should Radar not come on line at the stipulated time ?

Highland Director

18th Oct 2006, 00:07

Just out of Interest has anyone thought what will happen if the military do pull out of providing the service at the end of March 2007. Surely the airlines will be very seriously concerned? Even if the Military are required by their bosses to continue the service will they still have the staff there to provide it? Lastly who will pay for the task continuing? if HIAL have to pay surely it will be more money taken from their radar budget ??
This thread seems to ask more questions than are being answered but it certainly makes interesting reading. I wonder if HIAL are making provisions should Radar not come on line at the stipulated time ?
Lifes2good - Interesting question. If Lossie do pull out (as looks likely) then there is no option but for Inverness to operate in the same way as the other 4 procedural HIAL units. ie some poor sod in a poorly equipped tower working miracles on his own. Of course the airlines wont be happy. However, some have suggested that the regulators would not allow this to happen. I disagree. The regulators are satisfied with Inverness currently operating a one man band TWP/APP set-up on Saturdays and Sundays as things stand. If they deem that to be safe, then how can they possibly insist on a different system on weekdays?
Yes of course there is much more military flying on weekdays but I reckon the regulators would be hard pushed to make a case for insisting that a radar service is available to aircraft operating into an aerodrome situated in Class G airspace.
I do not know what the current financial arrangements are between NATS,MOD and HIAL for the current letter of agreement. I would expect that the MOD receive appropriate remuneration from NATS since a portion of the ADR structure is delegated to Lossie by SCACC. However, for the last 8 years, HIAL have been sitting fat dumb and happy enjoying a 'free radar service' and ignoring the desperate need to modernise the aerodrome infrastructure.
New company motto - 'HIAL - Too little - Too late'

niknak

18th Oct 2006, 13:40

We had a similar agreement with a nearby military unit until early this year.

The difference being that the MOD paid us to have our bods on console there, this being considered to be the safest option given the adjacent nature of our two units.

The annual costs at the end of the contract worked out at about £98K per year.

If HIAL have been getting the services of Lossi' for nowt all these years, they're in for a big suprise - my man on the inside at the RAF dept' of deals tells me that the MOD bean counters are looking closely at the contract we had, in anticipation of presenting HIAL with the harsh facts of commercial reality.

PPRuNe Radar

18th Oct 2006, 15:54

I understand the Lossiemouth service was funded by NATS, recovered from the En Route charge. So every operator who flew within UK airspace was paying for it ;)

SACrIGGER

18th Oct 2006, 16:29

A Lossiemouth controller told me that Inverness simply funded one extra controller at Lossie.

niknak

18th Oct 2006, 21:45

I understand the Lossiemouth service was funded by NATS, recovered from the En Route charge. So every operator who flew within UK airspace was paying for it ;)

If that is the case, questions should be sevrely asked in the House!!!
:rolleyes: :mad: :rolleyes:

jack-oh

18th Oct 2006, 23:54

NATS fund the Inverness task, as Highland Director said, it all comes down to the the deligation of airspace from NATS to Lossiemouth. The original deal was for the installation of an additional console (plus comms etc) at Lossiemouth and and the provision of 2 controllers, based on a 55hr week. At the time HIAL were not even in the loop as to funding, as the App task was not part of the deal. NATS tried to state that the task should simply come under the LARS banner and no additional funding was required. This didn't go down to well, but the whole contract was swept up with a much larger NATS/MOD deal and the details were lost in the haze. In effect, HIAL got the whole thing for free and has continued to do so. The original contract was tied up with so much more, that it was not revisited until the FMARS concept was agreed to. Once the deal was looked at afresh, and in light of continuing growth, the RAF has been trying to wrench itself out of the deal whilst still trying to be seen as the good guy and provider of a much valued service. That is why when HIAL stated that at a certain date it would be capable of providing its own service, all at Lossie and above were more than happy to draw stumps.

Single Spey

19th Oct 2006, 07:07

NATS fund the Inverness task, as Highland Director said, it all comes down to the the deligation of airspace from NATS to Lossiemouth. .

What :mad: right do NATS have to do any delegation of uncontrolled airspace?

In effect, HIAL got the whole thing for free and has continued to do so. .

So if Inverness finally get a radar shouldn't this mean that they will take on the Kinloss/Lossie app task for free for a few years to restore the quid pro quo? :)

aluminium persuader

19th Oct 2006, 16:08

What right do NATS have to do any delegation of uncontrolled airspace?

I'd imagine it's historical; from the days before NATS when it was all CAA - regulators & providers in the same happy company.;)

NorthSouth

19th Oct 2006, 19:44

What :mad: right do NATS have to do any delegation of uncontrolled airspace?It's Class F - Scottish provide a service to participating traffic on it/them. It's this that was delegated.

Coming back to CAS, the other big problem they'll have is that even if they get an Inverness CTR, DAP will want it to be connected to something. Not much point having the protection of Class D around Inverness if you get dumped into Class F or G just as you enter cloud in the climb. The days of isolated stand-alone control zones/SRAs, like Newcastle, Tees-side, Southend and Lydd used to be, are gone.
Ns

chevvron

20th Oct 2006, 17:21

I see HIAL are advertising for non-radar APCs in Flight last week.

jack-oh

20th Oct 2006, 18:25

The delegation of airspace from NATS to Lossiemouth was for the Advisory routes W3D and W6D.

As for controlled airspace, I presented to a meeting at both Lossie and Kinloss for the introduction of CAS around Inverness in the summer of 2003. The Intiative was at that stage taken by the 2 stations as the writing was on the wall regarding the growth of Inverness. I then remember going to a meeting at HIAL HQ in which the agreed proposal was delivered to them on a plate. The dimensions of the Inverness CTA/CTZ were carefully worked out, regarding the base levels, that would allow for FJ to transit underneath them. This proposal took HIAL by surprise, but it was carefully planned by the 2 stations at the time.

The design allowed for something looking rather like the current Durham CTA/CTZ, but was extended to the west to allow for high terrain and the subsequent longer approach for a 3degree glidepath, additionally there was a stub linking the CTZ to W3D.

This proposal was put in place because it is impossible for Inverness to have an exclusive zone due to the position of Kinloss. The 7nm final point for both Kinloss RW08 and INV RW23 being almost coincident. Furthermore, consideration was given to a Moray Firth TMA surrounding all 3 airfields, with individual airfields having there own CTAs. However, this was rejected as the size of the thing would need to be huge and the amount of exemptions required for Mil FJ (speed, VFR at night etc) were considered too numerous to be worth it. With that said, without the ability for IFR ac under the control of Lossie to penetrate an INV CTA/CTZ the whole arrangement would not work, and would in effect prevent Kinloss from using 50% of its RWs. Shared access was the the overall requirement and thus the imputus for Lossie and Kinloss to be pro-active.

This proposal was submitted to the MIl DAP who declined to take it any further for "political" reasons.

Single Spey

20th Oct 2006, 21:14

What would be interesting would be to know how many movements Lossie and Kinloss have and the number of airproxes aircraft under their control have been involved in. If as I susppect these are not of sufficient cause for major concern, then it seems to suggest that large airliner aircraft, fast jets and numerous GA aircraft can operate in the Moray airspace with a level of safety assured through the provision of a radar service without the imposition of CAS. So how does the number of movements at Inverness compare and why isn't provision of a radar sevice without establishing CAS made a prerequisite before further expansion of traffic levels at Inverness?

And with the likely imposition of Mode S for all aircraft in the next few years, TCAS would add another level of safety that has hitherto been unavailable.

bigelz1215

6th Nov 2006, 14:31

It seems to have gone quiet in snekyland - are there any further developments.

chevvron

7th Nov 2006, 16:25

May be wrong but I believe the 'mandatory mode S' rule only applies to civil aircraft; lets face it, very few military aircraft even carry TCAS (probably only those which might operate in controlled airspace for long periods)

Single Spey

7th Nov 2006, 18:16

The mandate does apply to military aircraft, but they have a later compliance date of 2009 I believe. Currently MoD is looking to find the funding. :)

NorthSouth

7th Nov 2006, 22:08

The mandate does apply to military aircraft, but they have a later compliance date of 2009 I believe. Currently MoD is looking to find the funding. :)But in the real world as opposed to Eurocontrolia NATS radars will continue to see military Mode C returns and since the amount of mil tfc in CAS is minimal anyway this is a minor issue. They'll presumably equip the airways-frequenting types first (VC-10, Tristar, C-17, C-130) then worry about the pointy types later.
NS

BDiONU

8th Nov 2006, 08:47

The mandate does apply to military aircraft, but they have a later compliance date of 2009 I believe. Currently MoD is looking to find the funding. :)
Military will/have applied for exemption and will get it as state aircraft. Similar to 8.33 where even the eurofighter is not equipped.

BD

Single Spey

8th Nov 2006, 11:49

As I understand there will be very few military exemptions granted. The latest CAA Mode S Partial RIA hits everyone with its 'improved technical interoperability' dogma. Many military fast jets are included in the SIFF (Successor IFF) programme which includes a Mode S capability. Exemptions may possibly be applied to non-capable aircraft (gliders), histioric aircraft and aircraft within twelve months of an out of service date.

Single Spey

8th Nov 2006, 11:51

Similar to 8.33 where even the eurofighter is not equipped.

BD

But isn't 8.33 only applicable to certain airspace - unlike Mode S which will be all pervasive?

mad_jock

8th Nov 2006, 15:59

http://www.egpe.demon.co.uk/html/news/images/CASmap2.jpeg

I don't know how out of date this pic is.

MJ

BDiONU

8th Nov 2006, 18:42

But isn't 8.33 only applicable to certain airspace - unlike Mode S which will be all pervasive?
8.33 is applicable within Controlled Airspace and with the DFL coming down to FL195 in March that area gets much bigger ;)

BD

Spotter99

10th Nov 2006, 07:02

niknak

11th Nov 2006, 20:54

Good luck to you Spotter, apply via the HIAL website but be aware that they regularly trawl the local population of each airports catchment area for bright young folk who are a lot younger than you and want to do exactly what you desire.

When I worked for the company, they had a very pro active approach to applicants from all sectors, although it would help your cause by a factor of 1000 if you already had the ADI rating - something to think about spending any resettlement funding on at CATC Bournmouth, ASTAC or Bae Cwmbran.

At the best its worth blowing £300 on an assessment, then you can either fund it yourself and be in a position of power to partially dictate your future.

Back to the CAS - although I have enormous respect for
C.S and the work he is doing at Inverness, until they get their own radar with SSR and passenger numbers exceed 1 Million, it won't even be considered - thats the latest gossip and goal post figures from the DAP.

Highland Director

12th Nov 2006, 14:51

I am presently serving in Cyprus as an ATCO with the RAF. But have had enough and looking for a new lease of life. I served at Lossie and did the Inverness Radar Task while there. I thoroughly enjoyed this job and always said to the Inverness boys that I would love to do this full time. My only problem is that being military I hold no officially recognised licences but would like to apply for an ATCO post. The job when I was at Lossie worked fairly well in my opinion with only the odd bust up over the landline especially when Inv on 24 and Kinloss on 08 with who had the priority. Their traffic levels now necessitate their own radar. Highland Director is it worth my while applying?
Spotter99 - I wish I were in a position to advise you but alas I'm just an ATCO - the lowest form of life within HIAL. I've long since given up trying to predict what management might do next. I wouldn't trust anything they tell you either.
Stornoway is the crisis unit at present in terms of Atco shortages - so beware. You wouldn't be the first to have fallen victim to a broken HIAL 'promise' only to find yourself banished and bonded in the Hebrides for years on end.
Be aware also that HIAL management find it difficult to conceive that anyone over the age of 40 is worthwhile investing in. There are middle-aged ATCOs at Inverness who've spent their entire careers working for the company who've been overlooked for Radar training. The £13,000 course is seen as too much to risk. Suggestions that consideration ought to be given to the operatioal experience of these guys, tend to be met with lots of sucking of teeth and shaking of heads by the non-operational management types.
Sorry if that's not exactly what you were hoping to hear but that's the way things are from my perspective anyway. It'd do no harm to contact them though. HIAL advertised in Flight just a few weeks ago with the slogan 'Ten Airports - One vision'. As far as I'm aware the number of valid ATCOs who were considered for interview was zero. :uhoh:
There is just a chance that next time the Ad will read - 'Ten Airports - One ATCO.' :)

OCEAN WUN ZERO

12th Nov 2006, 18:44

until they get their own radar with SSR and passenger numbers exceed 1 Million, it won't even be considered - thats the latest gossip and goal post figures from the DAP.

niknak

how firm are these pax numbers in the gossip?

OWZ

niknak

13th Nov 2006, 22:17

Ocean,

all I can say is that DAP have finally woken up to the fact that you don't have to have a million air transport movements to get a million passengers, Inverness should be able to achieve the required figure in the next couple of years but if they don't get their own radar with SSR, they won't get CAS.

Egbert Bear

8th Dec 2006, 16:30

Page 28 of the just released Inverness Airport Master Plan, says that by 2010 the airport will have developed its own radar on site. Currently phase one is under way. The provision of seven day radar cover will facilitate the move towards designation of controlled airspace.
Anyone care to comment

Egbert Bear

NorthSouth

8th Dec 2006, 17:00

madlandrover

21st Dec 2006, 00:08

Remember that part of that so-called Master Plan involves GA leaving the airport totally by 2020, and ideally by 2010 - anyone with the correct figures care to hazard a guess how many of the annual movements are down to GA? The figures I've had from a few reputable sources hardly place HIAL's latest policies in a favourable light. No GA, no radar, if it's purely based on movements...! Alarmist? Yes. But possibly also realistic, I didn't enjoy reading through the master plan while down south on an ATPL groundschool course supposed to let me make light aircraft flying a job rather than an expensive hobby.

NorthSouth

21st Dec 2006, 08:38

No GA, no radar, if it's purely based on movements...!It's not the radar that's dependent on movements, it's controlled airspace, and I suspect the radar's coming faster than some may have imagined. This could benefit GA at Inverness if the GA operators play it right and get talking to the controllers early about how the VFR/IFR mix will work. At present, the inordinate time taken by an IFR to complete a procedural approach means that the knock-on effect in terms of delays on VFRs is significant. But with radar they can be more confident about separations and so reduce those delays.
The other thing is that Inverness still has two runways. If I was a GA operator at Inverness I'd be talking to the HIAL ops people about the benefits of keeping those two runways open and having simultaneous ops to maximise the movement rate and assist separation of VFRs from IFRs.
NS

Chilli Monster

21st Dec 2006, 10:22

At present, the inordinate time taken by an IFR to complete a procedural approach means that the knock-on effect in terms of delays on VFRs is significant.

Why is VFR being delayed that much anyway? Class 'G' airspace, pass traffic information and it's up to them to stay out of the way. Whether they have radar or not shouldn't be making any difference.

madlandrover

21st Dec 2006, 10:30

True - I can only see radar vectored ILSs as a positive thing, although it will take a while to get a radar head close enough to the field for SRAs. Equally, I'm quite in favour of Class D airspace as long as it's well managed - more separation and control can't be a bad thing, especially if it stops people hanging around just outside the ATZ... On the other hand, I'm still nervous that coupled with that Master Plan document GA could end up being very much at the bottom of the food chain. Of course we'll give way to IFR traffic on final approach - but recently I've been held long enough to get carb icing due to a bizjet backtracking the full length when I could've gone and turned clear before he was ready to go. And then I had to be held for wake turbulence etc... Slightly petty I know, but it could be a bad sign.

Might as well give them a chance anyway - things can always change.

madlandrover

21st Dec 2006, 10:34

Why is VFR being delayed that much anyway? Class 'G' airspace, pass traffic information and it's up to them to stay out of the way. Whether they have radar or not shouldn't be making any difference.

In theory, yes. In practice... Lots of time orbiting before being allowed joins, near the ATZ, etc. Will it changed with controlled airspace? Maybe - it's almost a virtual control zone now the way it's handled, so who knows.

NorthSouth

21st Dec 2006, 10:48

Why is VFR being delayed that much anyway? Class 'G' airspace, pass traffic information and it's up to them to stay out of the way. Whether they have radar or not shouldn't be making any difference.Ah yes, I thought it wouldn't take too long to get back into the old "do you separate VFRs from IFRs" debate. This could run and run!
NS

NorthSouth

21st Dec 2006, 10:50

it will take a while to get a radar head close enough to the field for SRAsHmmmm, watch that space! May be sooner than you imagine.
NS

madlandrover

21st Dec 2006, 10:53

Hmmmm, watch that space! May be sooner than you imagine.
NS

Good :) The sooner the better.

mad_jock

21st Dec 2006, 18:39

madlandrover

21st Dec 2006, 18:46

After a question from the tower while getting beasted in a OPC. I believe they have a feed in the tower and they can see you down to 200ft on the 23 end.
NS :E
Is there a new lot in Lossie Radar? Some very strange instructions recently while VFR again. The old "not below" clearance to VFR traffic has started again. And the old "they are under my control"

200'? In that case I'm impressed - I was under the impression the dead zone was a lot higher than that, given the radar head being 27(ish, off the top of my head!) miles away. If it's really that good then the sooner "we" get a feed and set up Inverness Radar the better, although I remain impressed by the service from Lossie Radar, even today when they're NOTAMed as being on leave they were still providing Inverness Approach within their normal schedule. And they've got time to a) be nice to GA b) identify us from heading changes!

mad_jock

21st Dec 2006, 20:23

Lossie radar is open all year round. I can't remember if its Kinloss or lossie is a mil divert airport. So even at the weekend Lossie radar is operating. They just don't get involved with civ traffic.

The primary head is at Lossie.
The secondary head is at Kinloss.

They arn't providing a service during the week from the goodness of thier hearts. The only reason they identify you isn't for any service which will help you. Its so they can satisfy there operating requirments for launching and recovering aircraft into the CMATZ. If INV traffic wasn't near enough to stop them launching or recovering they really couldn't care what you do. As soon as you accept a service off lossie be ready to be on your toes. They will try and radar vector you in class G VFR which maybe into cloud. They will give you "not below xxxxft" which is a IFR clearance. The reason why they give you a turn for identification is because the secondary radar is tits up again at Kinloss and they are trying not to tell any one. And be ready to stick up for yourself and don't except a not above instruction which gets you 500ft off Saddle Hill just for W3D inbounds.

The primary radar is a heap and from various discussions on the RT is some what suspect in relation to geographic range from the danger areas. And the secondary radar is out more than they tell you.

The service from Lossie has its peaks and troughs depending where the controllers are in the training cycle and what attitude the controller has to civi aircraft. The peaks can be extremely impressive letting you do visual climb against's decending traffic which civi controllers can't do. The troughs can be sub sea levels of service with such a marked difference to normal civi controlling practises and RT that nobody has a clue what is going on.

"G-xxxx cancel IFR decending QNH 10XX"
"Rodger IFR flight plan cancel at xxxx"
"G-xxxx RAS turn heading 120 deg stop decent FL90"

As they refuse to band box UHF to VHF as Luchars do you don't have a clue how over worked they are or what mil traffic is doing. The fact that most mil pilots make a point of trying not to talk to them if they can help it, due to years of fighting doesn't help.

The whole thing is a political hand bags at dawn.

madlandrover

21st Dec 2006, 20:58

Hmm. Those who actually work in/with it may correct me later, but for now... As far as I'm aware Lossie are contracted (free...) to operate Inverness Approach until this March, when the contract ends whether we want it to or not. Personally I've had nothing but excellent services from Lossie, partly of course because I very very rarely accept RAS, I'd far rather take RIS and maintain my own brain - then again, I'm not exactly Public Transport so can do as I like.

Yes, they operate in a military manner, but that's a problem for whoever thought up the initial contract rather than Lossie themselves, personally as an ex-military (not for long, but every hour counts...) pilot I find them a bit crisper and more responsive than most civvy units, and it does help that they're nowhere near as commercially focused as Inverness! A couple of times Inverness have denied me IFR inbound slots and the weather's been VFR but without the safety margin I'd like, and Lossie have got me IFR slots straight away with no fuss. Yes, I'm biased, but it'll be interesting to see how the transition period goes - on a serious note, I do of course hope Inverness Radar is successful!

mad_jock

21st Dec 2006, 22:46

Are you Instrument or IMC rated?
If not its illegal for you to accept a RAS. Not that you will have any choice if Lossie want to seperate you.
Do you carry the instrument plates for INV, ABZ, WIK or Kinloss and the fuel for the divert?. Do you have the instruments fitted on the aircraft to do all the approaches (I have 800 hours on LP and ZA and 200 on YR) ?

Or are you banking on doing the timed VOR approach onto 23 at 90knts for a cloud break onto 05 thus totally scewing inbounds for nearly 30 mins, who if they are on min fuel with 30min hold with one in front doing the proc ie 13 mins are now going to have to divert. And if you are in a DME kitted aircraft at 90knts you are going to take 20 mins (it takes a 737 13mins to do the procedure) at max blat, if you config and all the rest of the things they teach you its going to be more like 25mins again.

If not why are you fannying around pretending to be an IFR inbound?
Its no wonder the airport want to get rid of GA.

The last prat that turned up that I heard on the RT was last month. Booked into tower at FL60 on a low QNH which put him below the MSA for that sector with 15 miles to run IMC and the hold was active at all levels down to 3500ft (I was in it). Lossie hadn't seen them on primary or secondary radar. They didn't have any plates and it took over 45 minutes before they were on the ground. All with the hold full. Its fannys like that which are putting the nail in the coffin for GA.

I really wouldn't put faith in crisp RT the lady that came out with my example was crisp and correct to the letter but she obviously didn't have a clue what canceling IFR meant.

madlandrover

21st Dec 2006, 23:33

IMC rated with a certain amount of military experience, so I'm comfortable with SRAs and PARs if offered. Clearly I suit my flight profile to the conditions and weather - usually IFR to within 20D if necessary then VFR if possible from then on, but occasionally it's easier on the controllers for me to remain IFR. Common sense dictates that if I'm offered a service I should at the least seriously consider taking it, therefore if they offer it they should expect me to take it. Yes, I carry diversion fuel (actually, I usually carry alternate fuel and hold fuel well beyond the basic JAR OPS requirements, unlike airlines now landing without enough fuel for a missed approach at the alternate!) & full plates, and have practical experience of all the relevant approaches, both day and night. The timed VOR approach to 23 with cloudbreak to 05 does not remove the 05 ILS for 30 mins - I'm not quite sure where you get your timings from, but it's only 3 mins outbound, 1min10s in the base turn, and I would expect to be able to change to a VFR (and therefore visual...) approach during the inbound leg, thus removing me from the IFR equation. Total time? Maximum 6 mins in real life, and I can accept unusual hold heights that aircraft with passengers are often unable to accept. If doing the more standard approaches, 18-19nm plus a base turn doesn't add up to 20-30mins last time I used a CRP5 (this morning). If I fly at all, let alone IFR, I fly with the correct kit & reference aids & plan properly - I can't answer for everyone, but please don't assume all GA pilots blunder around randomly with nothing more than the legal VFR minimum of a stopwatch! Oh, and as I'm sure you're aware if you fly into INV regularly, Kinloss hasn't been available as a diversion for over 6 months - as advised in the relevant AICs.

90kts in the DME equipped aircraft? None of the DME equipped aircraft I regularly fly carry out procedures as slowly as 90kts. I'm not sure what DME equipped aircraft you've flown at INV that carry out the procedure at that speed, the ones I regularly fly maintain at least 105kts until 4D, significantly more in the retractables. Not a major difference I know, but it does help to get the facts spot on.

Yes, of course there are prats who mess up the procedures for everyone - I remember the times when EZY were averaging 1 conflict a week, not to mention coming on frequency asking Inverness Tower for radar approaches, asking for the Ground frequency, etc. As far as I'm concerned we're all aircraft despite such differing approach profiles, while good airmanship suggests booking in for the less busy times. Equally, if ATC do clear me for a slot when they know the aircraft type then it's only fair for me to assume that they're aware of their expected inbound traffic, fuel states, hold times, EATs, etc! As another example of how commercial traffic can also mess up the pattern, a few months ago I was held orbiting outside the ATZ for nearly the full 45 minutes (reciprocating engined aircraft hold fuel as specified in JAR Flight Planning) thanks to a J32 practising visual circuits at as high a speed as possible between scheduled approaches. I could just have adjusted my speed to slot in nicely (I'm quite happy to maintain cruise speed down to very short finals - when the Calibrator was working recently at night on the 05 ILS ATC asked me to position for 23 "tight, fast, and to turn off by the intersection", an interesting combination!), but it would've made everyone's life easier for the Jetstream to reduce speed for a circuit or 2 rather than hammering around at 1000' and high power. Good airmanship surely?

In conclusion... I'd far rather we all operated & worked together - everyone has to start somewhere, and therefore start off in GA and gain valuable experience that way. It's unwise to lump all GA pilots together based on the lack of a company callsign, bearing in mind the current range at INV from basic NPPL doing a couple of hours a month at most with little currency, airmanship, and understanding of aviation all the way up to a tame 747 training captain or 2 instructing for fun. Yes, of course there are pilots who let us all down, but please don't assume we're all the same - personally, I can think of a couple of examples of extremely sloppy commercial flying purely from the flights I did today, scheduled aircraft misunderstanding procedural arc-ils approaches and attempting to gain a clearance to descend below MSA, etc... If I can successfully fly an arc-ils solo at night for the first time without any problems without annoying anyone, I have every right to expect a ATPL holder to do the same! Yes, being accused of "fannying around pretending to be an IFR inbound" by someone who doesn't know me or the flying I do does annoy me, with justification I think.

Rant over - can we all get along, or would everyone but me rather that GA at INV followed the path of the suddenly closed flying school at ADZ??

mad_jock

22nd Dec 2006, 09:50

Data Dad

22nd Dec 2006, 14:27

Mad Jock,

Are you Instrument or IMC rated?
If not its illegal for you to accept a RAS.

errmmmm.....are you sure? You can fly IFR in Class G without those ratings as long as you remain VMC

From the UK AIP concerning Radar Advisory Service:

(a) The service will only be provided to flights under IFR irrespective of meteorological conditions;
(b) controllers will expect the pilot to accept vectors or level allocations which may require flight in IMC. Pilots not qualified to fly in IMC should accept a RAS only where compliance with ATC advice permits the flight to be continued in VMC;

DD

madlandrover

22nd Dec 2006, 14:51

fair enough I apologise. You have all the ticks in the boxs.
And no I definately don't want GA to leave INV. But I supect that things will happen like at Leeds and Newcastle which will kill it off.
And yes the none local commercials don't read thier plates properly and there are some very shoddy arc's flown.

Accepted & no offence taken - it is hard to get the right tone sometimes online! Yes, I'm have a feeling that GA will struggle to stay at INV, it probably doesn't help when the SATCO states that he wants all GA to leave "his" airport (yes, he really did say that...). That wouldn't be a problem if there was somewhere for us to go - I for one would have no problems leaving the HIAL umbrella to go somewhere where we felt more valued, didn't have to fight bureaucratic inefficiency on a daily basis just to get what we're actually paying for - hangar charges to name just one - but sadly there is nowehere else. Dornoch only has so much room, I can only safely get my own aircraft - 4 seat STOL retractable tourer - in & out of Knockbain on a very favourable day with half load, etc... Maybe HIAL build us another airfield we'll move?? Unrealistic, but I can dream.

chevvron

22nd Dec 2006, 16:08

Regarding the integration of GA with commercials; when radar arrives it should surely include an ATM which should make the tower controller's job much easier.

heading is good

26th Dec 2006, 16:40

Oh I do like reading rumour and ill informed arguments, esp those that are bent in order to make the writer's view sound better!
From my understanding, Lossie provide the radar service along the advisory routes to mitigate the risk from other traffic flying about, such as GA and more importantly fast jets, be they from Lossie or elsewhere. As they are advisory routes, the controllers are mandated to provide RAS to participating traffic. They are not providing an approach service to Inverness as SRG said they couldn't, although it seems to make sense that they did. Therefore, at Inverness ATC's request, the tracks are sent to Inverness approx 15-20nm from INV; this means that the aircraft are flying through open FIR in the region of INV under procedural service even though there is a radar unit that can see them. Lossie do, although dont need to, provide advisory actions to aircraft, via Inverness, if aircraft come into confliction.
As to the radar - the servicability of both the primary and secondary as well as the radar coverage both provide, I am sure, have been disclosed to HIAL so they are aware of the level of service they are getting. If the radar at Lossie is not performing well, be that primary or secondary, the controllers will limit service accordingly. Surely the drivers would prefer to know what they are getting rather than bimble about in an air of ignorance? It is probably unhelpful for Ppruners to throw rocks unless they know the full picture. However I am sure that all pilots are fully aware what RAS and RIS mean and the level of service that that implies. ("I'll just take a Radar Advisory...its quite sunny up here" springs to mind!!).
Is it worth asking why you need CAS when you have a radar doing the vectoring and providing RAS? Surely it is safer to have radar than not at all; if Farmer Giles is lost, he will still be lost whether CAS exists or not....! Maybe another argument!
As to the provision of service during the period Lossiemouth is NOTAM'd as closed - I hear from a good source that Lossie are not obliged to provide radar to Inverness during standdowns or leave periods, as, if you recall above, there is no fast jet traffic to mitigate against; however as good neighbours they are controlling during the Xmas period, although for restricted periods. Strictly speaking, the radar service is an MOD - NATS contract so neither Lossie nor Inverness are involved in the grubby cash element.
I'll just go and get my helmet and body armour ready for the returning chest poking!!:=

BuchanLoon

4th Jan 2007, 15:35

-snip- Yes, I'm have a feeling that GA will struggle to stay at INV, it probably doesn't help when the SATCO states that he wants all GA to leave "his" airport (yes, he really did say that...). -snip-.

No he really did not! What he has said, consistently, is that unless the ground infrastructure at Inverness is improved, or better information to ATCOs concerning effects of vortex or jet blast is provided, he would like microlights banned.
This would be purely for safety and flight regularity reasons, in that order. He would greatly miss the presence of most of the GA at Inverness, indeed is extremely grateful for its presence at quiet times as it helps keep his hand in. This is particularly true as he is most definitely middle-aged!:=

madlandrover

4th Jan 2007, 15:58

I suppose that makes the airline pilot - among other people - he said it to a liar then...? You're a braver man than me. The microlight question is, I think, a separate one, and one that's being fought hard by several people as we speak. The prescence of the flying school is also a different matter, being as it is one of the greater providers of movements at INV. I was referring purely to private GA, something that is most definitely not popular with certain (and I must make it clear that I'm not referring to all!!) controllers and management types.

1 thing I should add. I most definitely do not blame INV ATC for the current developing mess, they often do a very good job working in the face of a purely profit conscious management, even if there are certain controllers who have a slightly biased view of the "priorities" of traffic. Like anywhere else we have to survive alongside each other, so personal battles are a poor idea. Unfortunately, for most people flying at INV, be it commercial or private, the controllers are the only public representatives of HIAL that we have any contact with on a regular basis, so it's inevitable that they'll get a certain amount of the feedback from questionable company decisions. Sad, but true, I really wish life was different!

AGEDMIL

8th Jan 2007, 03:31

The provision of ATS to Inverness departures/arrivals by Lossiemouth ATC has been, I understand, provided against a combination of manning (detachments)/endorsement/training problems and increased military flying in the ' Moray Bowl' area (EGQS/EGQK/EGPE). Lossiemouth ATC are not just providing arrival/departure ATS to Moray Bowl aircraft, but also LARS to military aircraft that climb out from low level requiring identification and handover to ScATCC(Mil) - and the reverse when aircraft are handed over by ScATCC(Mil) to Lossiemouth for low level in the Moray Bowl area. I understand that at ScATCC(Mil) they have a list of Priorities of Service to aircraft with Emergencies then ATS to UAS aircraft at the top and RIS then FIS at the bottom. I do not know if a similar Priorities of Service operate at Lossiemouth - but if EGPE do not get their radar soon - ATS to GAT may take 2nd priority to OAT, or maybe 1st come 1st served!:eek:

There will be every likelihood that EGQS will remain as busy and maybe get busier with their own aircraft, and EGQK will get busier once the next generation of Nimrods come into service. It is also rumoured that EGQK may well get station based FJ aircraft as well.:bored:

Military exercises are going to get more frequent north of the STMA, therefore the airspace between EGPE and the STMA will become, at times, a lot more congested! Interesting times! :ugh:

chevvron

8th Jan 2007, 14:33

According to GATCO sources, Inverness' new control room has radar displays now in place and controller training on a new simulator will begin in '2007'.
Which controllers would they be then?

goddammit

8th Jan 2007, 14:41

I once worked with a part-italian, with a part-italian temperament, he was good and great fun, they should get one of them:ok:

Highland Director

10th Jan 2007, 22:36

According to GATCO sources, Inverness' new control room has radar displays now in place and controller training on a new simulator will begin in '2007'.
Which controllers would they be then?
Tis indeed true that the righteenuffers have radar displays in place displaying the primary radar data from Lossie and the SSR from Kinloss.
The new simulator is housed in a beautiful brand new portakabin which also doubles up as the training classroom.
2 'RATCOS' (as HIAL like to refer to them) have been recruited externally.

1 further 'RATCO' is on a temporary contract until summer 2007.

2 further Hial ATCOS have completed APS courses. They however will not be afforded full 'RATCO status' until valid. They each signed contracts which state otherwise but that's another matter.

The new Director of Ops who arrived 4 months ago? Fired on Monday morning and escorted off the premises. :eek: Boom boom boom......another one bites the dust.

NorthSouth

11th Jan 2007, 09:19

Sounds like it's hats off to the people who have completed at least the technology side of the Phase 1 radar project, seemingly against all odds. I'm impressed. As to training/recruitment of "RATCOs", to be fair to HIAL there is a nationwide shortage of the right people so no surprise that they might be a bit behind. But what is it with all these sackings?!
NS

Amadan

17th Jan 2007, 10:58

Western Isles MSP Alasdair Morrison is apparently unhappy that Stornoway ATC held up his Glasgow flight while they went off for a cup of tea. He was amongst passengers on board waiting for the delayed 8.10am flight to take off from Stornoway on Tuesday morning.

But engines were shut down at 8.30am as the airport now closes between then and 9am according to the response the MSP received from Hial HQ. Hial say temporary closures (8.30 to 9.00am) will be implemented for two months starting January 6th to meet ATC training needs as well as working time regulations.

The teabreak story is in Wednesday's Press and Journal.

PH-UKU

4th Feb 2007, 22:43

Anyone get any response from HIAL after submitting ?
Anyone got any idea how long this was in the public domain ? (I only heard about the day it was ending.)

PS I have utmost respect for INV ATCOs at moment - when trying to co-ordinate inbound releases/outbound clearances they sound VERY busy - Gorund/Tower and Approach all combined .... I take it when the radar is up and running HIAL won't be expecting you to be single manned like that ?

PPS What you offering for ADC/APC/APR/OJTI rating qualified ATCOs .. :E

chevvron

5th Feb 2007, 12:44

They'll have to work 'split'; providing radar service while providing ADI/ADV (other than with an ATM) is illegal in the UK

TWH

27th Mar 2007, 11:11

"Tis indeed true that the righteenuffers have radar displays in place displaying the primary radar data from Lossie and the SSR from Kinloss."

There must some pretty large holes in coverage, it would be really interesting to see the maps?
And then look at any proposals for controlled airspace!

pimpernel

1st Apr 2007, 18:19

I believe the radar coverage offered by Lossie and Kinloss is sufficient for the task. Whilst the primary radar is some 25nm away from INV, which would usually give you a poor base of radar cover, the fact that the terrain is so high in the area actually acts in your favour in this instance. Aircraft must fly above the lumps and therefore into coverage.

bigelz1215

16th May 2007, 08:24

Highland Director

16th May 2007, 13:04

As I understand it, come what may, the RAF will pull out of the Inverness task on 01 Apr 07. I don't blame them at all; the level of ac being worked now is far beyond what it was at the tasks conception and is likely to continue to grow, if recent press releases are anything to go by.
As this date has now come and gone - is there any update on the situation at Inverness, have the RAF now pulled out of the Inverness task as mentioned. When are the newly trained Inverness radar controllers taking over ?
The RAF have not pulled out of the Inverness task as yet. However they no longer provide a service on public holidays and have stated that they will cut back their service provision in June to Mon-Thur 9am-7pm & Fri 9am-5pm. There is a suggestion that there might be further cuts in service provision come July.

It's hardly surprising really. HIAL loudly trumpeted that Approach Radar provision would be in place by 31st March and subsequently Lossie, who have staffing issues of their own, have not given much priority to training individuals on the Inverness task.

The quoted 'newly trained Inverness radar controllers' are very few in number with several yet to even commence the necessary rating course.
The start date has gone from 31st March to early April to late April, to early May to early June.......and has now become 'delay not determined due several ATCOs holding for management improvement'.

It could have been so different, but would they listen?

ComJam

19th May 2007, 13:17

I did the ILS calibration at Inverness this week. I was amazed at the increase in the level of traffic that seems to have occured in the past year or two.

ATC did a great job in fitting us with the rest of the traffic and all on the one frequency. I hope life becomes a bit easier for you when the radar's up and running :)

Cheers

Egbert Bear

27th Jun 2007, 20:55

Highlands and Islands Airports today signed a contract with Thales ATM Ltd. to provide a primary and secondary radar unit at Dalcross which will enable the airport to provide full independent radar cover to air traffic for the first time ever
http://www.hial.co.uk/Default.aspx.LocID-014new19t.RefLocID-01402w00h.Lang-EN.htm

Neptune262

28th Jun 2007, 04:09

Can anyone who works at Inverness please pm me as I am trying to find an old ATC College buddy.

Thanks.

NorthSouth

28th Jun 2007, 11:50

Highlands and Islands Airports today signed a contract with Thales ATM LtdAnother first-of-type in the UK (with yet another to be announced shortly). Brave people, hope the tech support's good.
NS

airman sam

4th Jul 2007, 23:14

Looks like you are a go, full radar services from inverness by friday, best of luck

chevvron

5th Jul 2007, 11:12

Knowing Thales record with NATS/CAA, I would be afraid - very afraid.

NorthSouth

5th Jul 2007, 21:41

What, worse than Raytheon?

DONCASTER SHEFFIELD (EGCN):
RAC : Q)EGTT/QSPLT/IV/BO/A/000/999/5328N00100W005
FROM 07/06/07 16:54 TO 07/09/30 22:59 EST C2561/07
E)SRA PROCEDURE NOT AVBL.

NS

chevvron

6th Jul 2007, 08:18

My sympathy; we're also lumbered with Raytheon primary. I believe the first airfield to get it was Manston when they went civil; look at the trouble they've had; surely the lesson should have been learnt long ago.

NorthSouth

6th Jul 2007, 08:34

Even Raytheon can't be blamed for the weather! Manston had an old AR1 which was knocked out by lightning; now an AR1/S511 hybrid; future...?
NS

AyrTC

7th Jul 2007, 09:37

Well how is it going then?

AyrTC

agent007

18th Jul 2007, 20:59

Just as Ayr ATC has asked how is the new radar operating at Inverness.
If it does go u/s out of interest will Lossiemouth offer a service or does it revert to Procedural Control?

ToweringCu

18th Jul 2007, 21:27

Inverness use the Lossie radar, primary & secondary.

PPRuNe Radar

19th Jul 2007, 00:20

When did Lossie get SSR ?? Apart from the Kinloss head they use I mean ??

NorthSouth

20th Jul 2007, 12:09

They don't have SSR - head is still at Kinloss.

NS

pimpernel

21st Aug 2007, 19:22

I understand the radar approach task is now up and running. How is it going?

The Fat Controller

22nd Aug 2007, 12:56

From the ScACC end, my personal view is that the new radar service is working fine, it just needs to be open for longer !
Lossiemouth are no longer involved with the Inverness Approach task, so if the radar FEED to Inverness fails then it's back to procedural service.

Barryprice

23rd Aug 2007, 01:39

Inverness is working fine and just need thats bit to be done with it and now all we need is sids and stars and we will be jus like most airports if you know what im talking about.

agent007

27th Aug 2007, 08:11

SIDS & STARS may be a good addition at some time but surely some airspace protection is needed first!

niknak

27th Aug 2007, 17:40

No Controlled Airspace = No SIDs and STARs.

Inverness faces precisely the same uphill battle that many other similar airports do against the numpties in DAP.:rolleyes::ugh:

(Tell SID if you see him........).

pimpernel

29th Aug 2007, 21:09

NIK-NAK, DAP are not numpties, examine who gets CAS and who seems to fight and fight but get nowhere!
The answer is, if you are not a part of NATS with all thier backroom clout and therefore in the MOD/ NATS clique you are going to have a long uphill strugle.

niknak

30th Aug 2007, 00:44

Pimpernel - you are spot on in respect of once an ATC unit becomes part of the "NATS Family:rolleyes:", CAS is almost a cast iron guarantee.
Unfortunately, I disagree with your assesment of DAP, they are easily influenced by political clout and that makes them open to question but not answerable to common sense.

pimpernel

30th Aug 2007, 10:47

NIKNAK, OK point taken about DAP, but ask yourself why? Is it because that it is supposed to be a joint civil / Mil organisation where the vast majority of civil representatives are in fact ex-Mil.

All NATS seem to do is turn up with a lot of complicated figures and charts and bamboozle them into submission. The old adage bull**** baffles brains, can be loosely used in this instance. Is it any wonder that the Mil has subcontracted out to NATS to demonstrate the requirement to increase CAS around Brize Norton. More graphs, stats and hey-presto job done. Moral of the story, if you want CAS then you have to get in bed with NATS, as UK airspace is pretty much sewn up by horse trading between them and the MOD.

groveaviation

30th Aug 2007, 13:16

Thales: Another first-of-type in the UK (with yet another to be announced shortly). Brave people, hope the tech support's good.

What, worse than Raytheon?

So with this advice, where would a chap buy a PSR from these days?

danieloakworth

30th Aug 2007, 13:18

Personally wouldn't trust NATS as far as etc.

There are a few regionals making perfectly good progress with their CAS applications without using NATS.

NorthSouth

30th Aug 2007, 20:30

niknak:once an ATC unit becomes part of the "NATS Family", CAS is almost a cast iron guaranteeAre there any new NATS units that didn't already have CAS? Only one I can think of is Farnborough and it doesn't have CAS and I'm not aware it's applying for it.
NS

niknak

31st Aug 2007, 00:54

N.S.
Fair point, in my humble opinion I wonder if CAS would hamper the operation and airspace in the vicinity of Farnbourough, perhaps those more qualified than us could comment.

However, reversing your arguement, lets look at what happens when a NATS staffed ATC unit loses the NATS contract - in every single case, the surrounding CAS is immediately withdrawn. Just as when NATS take on an ATC unit, the surrounding CAS structure is immediately implemented or improved to accomodate said airport.

NorthSouth

31st Aug 2007, 08:47

OK, you've got me there. Where are the ex-NATS units? I presume they must be Prestwick, Southend, Lydd and Manston since those are the only airports I know of which have lost CAS in the last 25 to 30 years. How many of those were NATS and are you saying that DAP attitudes towards NATS/non-NATS units hasn't changed in 20-30 years, during which time NATS has been privatised and the process for applying for CAS has changed significantly?
NS

danieloakworth

31st Aug 2007, 09:09

Wouldn't happen. Just because an airport decide to sack NATS doesn't indicate anything about it's need for CAS. The process for justification of CAS has changed so much over the years, and with an increasingly litigeous society would like to see DAP try and remove CAS from someone without very good justification.

Green Flash

1st Sep 2007, 10:40

As a late comer to this thread, and with more than a passing (mostly historic) interest in the subject, can someone give me a brief heads up of where the Inverness radar situation is please? I presume the radar hasn't been built yet; two sites I heard rumoured are the south ridge (near where the Bandit mail plane went in, ironically) or over the Firth on the Black Isle near the TV masts; anyone confirm?? Ta.

groveaviation

4th Sep 2007, 21:29

Someone else will have to give you the siting details. The contract has been signed with Thales ATM to provide PSR/SSR and the programme has begun. In the meantime the feed from Lossie will continue.

Liobian

8th Sep 2007, 15:45

I understand it will sited on the airfield - location on the BI was ruled out for tech reasons.

Egbert Bear

9th Sep 2007, 15:48

If you go to www.hial.co.uk and look at Appendix 3 of their master plan you will see the proposed location for the radar head
EB

heading is good

3rd Oct 2007, 20:39

Sorry, a bit confused over this huge desire for controlled airspace when the controllers have a radar for the provision of a radar service? If an aircraft is receiving Radar Advisory, as I understand the majority of their commercial aircraft ask for, then separation standards are prescribed....and so if these services are correctly applied, why do you need to build further protection when the controllers there are quite capable in providing it using the expensive equipment they have got. The RAF controllers seem to have managed for a huge number of years for Inverness traffic; surely you are not saying the controllers are not up to the standard or are not applying the correct separation standards for the radar services being provided! :ooh:

PPRuNe Radar

3rd Oct 2007, 20:53

why do you need to build further protection when the controllers there are quite capable in providing it using the expensive equipment they have got.

How do you guarantee protection against unknown traffic, which may or not be squawking ?? You don't. You try to provide separation but it can never be guaranteed.

Inverness is building up in to a busy little place, in an area where there are lots of legitimate discrete operations by uncontrolled aircraft. I can understand therefore why they are looking for something to protect the approach airspace.

Cactus99

4th Oct 2007, 09:55

Heading Is Good,

Why CAS?
Because its not the first time that a bugsmasher decides to fly through the ILS onto 05 at 6 or 7d, not talking to a soul, causing all sorts of involuntary reactions on the flightdeck!! :eek:

Not illegal because its class G and theres nothing to stop them doing it. Not good airmanship, but we aren't all blessed with that are we?

There are a lot of homebuild's in the area without transponders, which as RADAR says above, would make it impossible for the radar controller to provide protection to IFR traffic, esp. when established on the ILS.

agent007

28th Oct 2007, 23:19

Any update on whats happening at Inverness? Radar still only appears to operate Mon to Fri. The weekends seem to be really busy whenever I'm up there must be one of the busiest units to operate non radar with so many scheduled flights about.

danieloakworth

29th Oct 2007, 11:26

Thales project ongoing, not due for installation until middle of next year, operational by autumn. Radar projects generally take a couple of years from flash to bang (safety cases etc).

bad bear

30th Oct 2007, 09:43

Forgive me for laughing my socks off! What I am hearing right now is that the CAA, ATC units and the Airlines judge it safe to have CAT hooning around without radar on the days that most recreational pilots are also flying , but will some time in the near future explain that CAS is needed to protect these same flights, even after there is radar at week ends. So is what is going to happen on this coming weekend safe or not? If it is acceptable and safe now..there is no need for CAS in the future ! Some level of consistency in views is required.
While Inverness has seen an increase in flights recently I have heard that several are unlikely to continue and traffic could reduce again, especially if oil remains expensive and taxation continues to rise.
My view is that Radar 7 days a week is essential and I cannot understand Inverness being allowed to operate without it, but CAS is totally unnecessary.

danieloakworth

30th Oct 2007, 13:49

Agreed, radar is essenitial, and Inverness have taken steps to address the issue. The CAS topic is different in many respects, radar will protect you from the guy wearing SSR, but non squawking pop ups are a different matter altogether. If you look at Inverness, what exactly is that pop up, an aircraft or one of the many wind turbines which show exactly the same characteristics on radar.

Places like Inverness are merely trying to create a small 'known environment' where they know their traffic is safe during departure and arrival. The establishment of CAS should not in reality hamper other airspace users, provided you are willing to talk to the airport you're flying in close proximity too.

NorthSouth

30th Oct 2007, 15:12

DO:If you look at Inverness, what exactly is that pop up, an aircraft or one of the many wind turbines which show exactly the same characteristics on radarDoes the Inverness radar actually see any wind turbines?
NS

bad bear

30th Oct 2007, 15:15

"The establishment of CAS should not in reality hamper other airspace users"
I agree it shouldn't but sadly it does. Look at the volume of airspace that is the Scottish TMA (inc EDI and GLA) and think how much of it is actually needed. Then think how aircraft that do not get clearance through have to take large detours you will see why CAS is a problem. Most pilots don't mind a known traffic environment but sadly they become a "no traffic environment" too often, as the above is. If one were to plot the actual tracks that are flown it would represent a small percentage of the volume of airspace. Airspace reserved for cross runways that are seldom used. Airspace down to the surface 10 or more miles from the airfield. Airspace below RVA. SIDs that reflect climb gradients of aeroplanes long since consigned to museums etc.
Is the reason for no radar at weekends due to the cost of staffing or the lack of staffing? If so It would be likely that non CAT would be refused entry to any CAS due controller work load/shortage ?

danieloakworth

30th Oct 2007, 15:46

Does the Inverness radar actually see any wind turbines?

Not sure whether the Lossie PSR currently has line of sight to any Wind Farms, but I know there is a lot of planned development in that region that will be visible to radar.

NorthSouth

30th Oct 2007, 16:12

Bad Bear:Look at the volume of airspace that is the Scottish TMA (inc EDI and GLA) and think how much of it is actually needed. Then think how aircraft that do not get clearance through have to take large detours you will see why CAS is a problem.EDI and GLA virtually never deny clearances through their CAS unless you want to plough right through their SIDs/STARs at 90kts in IMC
If one were to plot the actual tracks that are flown it would represent a small percentage of the volume of airspace.Then again a fair chunk of the Scottish TMA is Class E allowing you to blunder through VFR without even speaking to anyone - and that's a bit which is extensively and intensively used by Glasgow inbounds!
Airspace reserved for cross runways that are seldom usedBut those bits of airspace are also used for the jet SIDs off EDI 06 and GLA 05 so not much would get released even if they shut the cross runways.
Airspace down to the surface 10 or more miles from the airfieldA legacy, I suspect, of the fact that the GLA and PWK CTRs used to be one big CTR called the Scottish CTR i.e. there used to be more CAS, not less (maybe you didn't know that).
Airspace below RVAThe EDI example has been raised by 1000ft in the last 2-3 years. The GLA chunk is Class E so hardly an imposition.
SIDs that reflect climb gradients of aeroplanes long since consigned to museums etc.Both EDI and GLA have some quite demanding SID climb gradients and they were increased when the airspace changes were implemented 2-3 years ago.
NS