EC135

[SilsoeSid]

AnFI(really!)'

Where does the fuel pressure warning come into your theory?

Your swimming pool emptying with a straw as opposed to a thimble 'parallel' has no relevance, as the transfer pumps are at the bottom of the 'pool', so the transfer system is more like a bath plug than a straw! Likewise for the supply, as when the fuel pressure caption comes on you switch on the prime pump!

Thank you Arkroyal, would that be sufficient fuel in the supply tanks or the main?

[AnFI]

Sure SS

The narrow point of the swimming pool, is lost on you. No it would not be like the bath plug at the bottom in cases where the unuseable is so high - there is a big difference - think about sharpness of 'fuel out event', (once you have got yourself to the point where you are running out of fuel). The difference between v high and v low unuseable quantities is the main point i make and i think is lost on you.

[SilsoeSid]

AnFI (really!);

From where exactly is your straw sucking up the fuel in the supply tanks?

[pilot and apprentice]

AnFI, and any others still confused about this:

***before you listen to me, reread post #83, brilliant description***
***I don't fly 135's, but the design features are not unique***

What SS is trying to point out is that the goal of designing small feeder tanks, and it is a common design feature in one iteration or another, is to prevent the scenario you are describing.

Yes, the main tank transfer pumps will move in and out of fuel but they do not supply the engine. They are there to keep the supply tanks full.

The smaller feeder tanks and feeder pumps supply the engine, with significantly less space for sloshing fuel.

Yes, there is a possibility of a pilot moving from hover to forward speed and leaving the transfer pumps in an inappropriate configuration, but it is a known issue. And as was posted, the checklist response will address this.

Finally, if the pilot has turned off a main tank pump because of a light (indicating run dry) then it will not be intermittently sucking fuel later.

-----
I am not trying to start a pi$$ing match, just to point out that the system is not unique, particularly complex, or obviously flawed. Design is compromise. We get paid the big bucks to figure it out.

[PieChaser]

P&A,
You really need to look back through postings! I recommended reading post 83 to AnFi and he recommended it to others.
Take a look at post 1471 onwards on the Glasgow thread also.
I can't remember anyone suggesting transfer pumps cavitateing, I certainly hav'nt, that would be fairly normal.
My concern with the 135 fuel system is fuel not getting to the supply tanks and being trapped in the main. Transfer pumps spitting fuel into the supply tanks, and the engine pumps then not being able to keep up with demand.

If fuel is being intermittently pumped to a hot turbine, this in theory could cause popping banging etc. on some turbo props when doing a wet start you get this effect.

Hope that's clear, I know I'm not very articulate.

[Ornis]

To state the obvious: When the system is working correctly it works correctly.

The problem is not the big bucks paid to pilots to figure that out, it's the time a pilot has when it goes wrong.

In Glasgow: Engines out, backfiring noises, adequate fuel remaining, experienced pilot and failed autorotation. Reassurance from 135 pilots and engineers.

The explanation will not be obvious until it is known.

[pilot and apprentice]

P&A,
You really need to look back through postings! I recommended reading post 83 to AnFi and he recommended it to others.
Take a look at post 1471 onwards on the Glasgow thread also.
I can't remember anyone suggesting transfer pumps cavitateing, I certainly hav'nt, that would be fairly normal.
My concern with the 135 fuel system is fuel not getting to the supply tanks and being trapped in the main. Transfer pumps spitting fuel into the supply tanks, and the engine pumps then not being able to keep up with demand.

If fuel is being intermittently pumped to a hot turbine, this in theory could cause popping banging etc. on some turbo props when doing a wet start you get this effect.

Hope that's clear, I know I'm not very articulate.

I did read the post #83 and referred to that. I was specifically addressing AnFI's obsession with unusable fuel and analogies to swimming pools.

My post was to reiterate that it is not a horribly complicated fuel system, and to support SS in explaining that simply reaching the limit of a transfer pump to reach fuel does not result in unreliable flow to an engine. Just less flow to a supply tank.

Glasgow is a different thread/discussion. That is why I posted here.

[AnFI]

Well I'm pretty happy that people are taking seriously the point i made. it does fit with the witnesses. I don't know the 135 operationally

and/but SS the answer to your question is: at the point where the fuel is becomming unuseable - which must logically be at the top (not bottom) of the remaining 95litres. (and a high unuseable is inherently different from a low unuseable, like the swimming pool) I can't say whether this results in a supply tank being filled with fuel foam or not, nor whether this foam gets to the engine nor how the engine will respond to being fed fuel foam, but it looks on the surface to be something not to be thrown out of consideration without some thought, fair enough? (ESPECIALLY as it fits the information available) Can you be certain it is NOT a factor? If so that's good enough for me.:cool:

[SilsoeSid]

SS
AnFI (really!);
From where exactly is your straw sucking up the fuel in the supply tanks?

AnFI (really!)
SS the answer to your question is: at the point where the fuel is becomming unuseable - which must logically be at the top (not bottom) of the remaining 95litres.

Firstly, just to remind you, we don't know that the ac only had 95 litres in it.
Secondly, doesn't foam tend to be on the top of a surface of fluid
Thirdly, the engine sucks it's fuel from the bottom of the supply tank

"Well I'm pretty happy that people are taking seriously the point i made. it does fit with the witnesses. I don't know the 135 operationally"

Just who are these people you think are taking your point seriously!
If not operationally, how?

[Ornis]

If a pickup is sucking air then clearly it is not fully immersed in fuel.

Looking at the schematic, if a 135 were steady on the ground in cruise attitude and the forward transfer pump is not functioning, when the fuel quantity in the main tank drops to ~95 l, no fuel will be pumped to the supply tanks. The supply tanks will run dry and the engines will stop.

What happens when the aircraft is flying and fuel is sloshing around? Partial fuel prior to stopping?

What might a pilot do when he thinks there is sufficient fuel aboard but the engine(s) falter minutes from base?

[Fortyodd2]

Ornis,
In a nutshell, if you had read any of the many postings on this topic your question should read:
"What might a pilot do, when he/she sequentially gets a "fuel pump aft" caption cos it has no fuel to suck, a "fuel pump fwd" caption cos it has failed, reducing supply tank indications with fuel shown in the main, an Amber "Fuel" caption, 2 Red FUEL LOW captions with audio when he/she thinks there is sufficient fuel aboard but the engine(s) falter minutes from base?
To quote Silsoe Sid - "round & round & round" etc.

[AnFI]

well fortyodd would you say that the improbability of the scenario you paint is sufficiently improbable that we can say IT WAS NOT FUEL ?? 1^10-9??, you can't??

1 true but seems probable
2 yup
3 appreciate that Supply tank would act as seperator, which would work until the unfoamed fuel had gone. We don't know what the fineness of aeration would be nor how sensitive foaming is to different additives or blends of JetAorA1.
and also i don't think it takes much detergent contamination to make foam very persistent.

Infact if you think about it the separation action of the supply tank would be to collect a tank of foam.

It would be amazing if this were not fuel related especially with such a complex fuel system with so many permutations of event possible.

Like maybe fuel foam satisfies capacitative fuel quantity detectors.
FSII can also form a gum with water.

The point about testing is that you discover problems that (closed minded) people would not envisage. test and learn

[SilsoeSid]

AnFI (really!)
The point about testing is that you discover problems that (closed minded) people would not envisage. test and learn

Here's a test you might be interested in;
With this mornings daily check fuel sample (after testing that all was well), I placed 1 litre of Jet A1 into an empty 2.27 litre milk container. I shook it vigourously, as you would when mixing a sports drink, for a timed 10 seconds.
Once I finished shaking the fuel in the container, I timed how long it took for the bubbles to go. After 5 seconds all the bubbles had gone.
I then added a quarter of a litre of water to the container and repeated the test, with exactly the same result.

In respect of 'foaming', what have you learnt from that?

[Fortyodd2]

Morning Sid,
Glad you know what he's talking about!

AnFI, I have never said that it was not fuel but, if it was a causal factor, then there would have been some clues and cues to the crew that something was about to go wrong for several minutes before it actually did.

"Like maybe fuel foam satisfies capacitative fuel quantity detectors".

But not the thermal sensors that operate the LOW FUEL warnings.

"I don't know the EC135 operationally"

Then how exactly??

[SilsoeSid]

Morning Fo2 :)

Anticipating a certain reply from AnFI (really!), I have since added 5ml of fairy liquid (washing up detergent) to the mix. and again shook vigorously for 10 seconds. After 6 seconds any bubbles had dissappeared leaving an 'island of scum' on the top of the surface the size of a 50p piece.

I suspect that the scum is the residue left from the milk, however without scientific analysis I am unable to confirm.
What I can conclude from these tests;
1. 'Foaming' as described by AnFI (really!), does not occur.
2. I now have a very clean 2.27l ex-milk container.

[SilsoeSid]

AnFI (really!)
FSII can also form a gum with water.

Please tell us, does Jet A1 contain FSII?
;)

[chopjock]

Sid,

To make your milk bottle test more realistic, consider what would happen if pumping the resultant mix from one bottle to another with an electric pump, ensuring you are cavitating it at the same time. Also do it outside where it is cold.

edit: I presume during your shake test that the lid was on? Therefore no more air being added to the mix.

[SilsoeSid]

Chop, Describe what you want in order to get the result you need and I'll see what I can do :rolleyes:
Temp was 4 deg.

I presume during your shake test that the lid was on? Therefore no more air being added to the mix.

Much like the fuel cap? :ugh:

[chopjock]

Much like the fuel cap

Even you should know the tank is vented to allow air in as the fuel is being used.

[SilsoeSid]

Chop;Even you should know the tank is vented to allow air in as the fuel is being used.

Of course, Tesco milk containers are renowned for being totally air tight :ugh:
Besides, if I didn't spill any, there wouldn't be any replacing required :rolleyes:

[chopjock]

Sid,
I believe if you mix liquid and air in a sealed container, then the air will come out of the liquid quicker than in an open container. Reason being is the sealed container will create a partial vacuum above the surface of the liquid, helping to suck the air bubbles back out.

[AnFI]

Good work SS - the pprune R&D dept is on top form !

underfunded maybe? perhaps sponsorship from Tesco is in order?

(JetA1: FSII not neccessarily, although i think shell used to include it as standard)


Whilst the R&D Dept is in full swing perhaps you could look into the variability of Electro Static properties wrt capacitative fuel probes?

and

Temperature Probes for Low Fuel warning - can it be fooled under some temperature conditions?


So many complications to assess ! Keep up the good work.

(and SS cut the "really" (haha) jibe eh?)

[SilsoeSid]

Chop;Sid,
I believe if you mix liquid and air in a sealed container, then the air will come out of the liquid quicker than in an open container. Reason being is the sealed container will create a partial vacuum above the surface of the liquid, helping to suck the air bubbles back out.
Well, wasnt it a good thing that I had to take my hand off the top in order to see what was happening to the liquid? I didnt have a lid as it was somewhere in the depths of the bin and I wasnt going to rummage around for it, and had to use my latex gloved hand to cover the top while shaking.

Therefore my test proves AnFI's theory, and your loyal support of it, to be flawed :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

AnFI :suspect:
JetA1: FSII not neccessarily, although i think shell used to include it as standard

Best you don't go into Battersea on a cold day then;

http://www.londonheliport.co.uk/downloads/Jet_A1_without_pre-mixed_AL48.pdf
:ok:

[AnFI]

jibe? "used to" - as in don't anymore, something wrong with that answer?

btw when is 'no-go cold' now without FSII? -40C at alt? or subzeroC fuel temp?


Glad we can rule out that cause then.
Pls let us know when the R&D dept can rule out those other two possible issues.

(and do you intend to publish a paper on the anti foaming qualities of milk additive :} :confused:)

There's an answer in here somewhere and the wild speculation dept (PPRUNE) should be able to stumble accross the answer before the AAIB, shirley?
Pulled wrong FCL? LASER blinded? Medical (Heart Attack)?
(talking about Glasgow but on this thread for some odd reason:confused::confused::confused:)

[SilsoeSid]

AnFI :suspect:
Remaining on the 135 theme, you still haven't told us your experience on the 135, however there's probably no need to now, as with comments such as;
There's an answer in here somewhere and the wild speculation dept (PPRUNE) should be able to stumble accross the answer before the AAIB, shirley?
Pulled wrong FCL? LASER blinded? Medical (Heart Attack)?

... it's perfectly clear :D

btw when is 'no-go cold' now without FSII? -40C at alt? or subzeroC fuel temp?
According to the 135 FLM, no anti-icing additives are required down to minus 30 degC fuel temperature.
At fuel temp range -30 down to -35 an anti-icing additive is required.
:ok:

[AnFI]

I have more ground school on 135 fuel systems now than anyone doing a type rating. I feel confident that I have a 75% chance of passing the one(?) multi choice question on fuel systems for this type contained in the exam.
This I feel would easily equip a pilot with the ability to analyse clearly the thousands of lines of detail contained herein. What's the point? It's all fine as long as there's enough fuel and everything working correctly.:rolleyes:

If you can turn off the wrong transfer pump it will happen, afterall it's only 50-50 between answer c and answer d

How are the other experiments coming along?

[SilsoeSid]

AnFI :suspect:

The thing you've missed about the thousands of posts about the fuel system is that despite being told very clearly how it works from very early on, others, just like yourself, have brought their own version of the system onto the thread. If you were doing a type rating, you would be told the information contained within that one post, and all the others would be ignored. Now, is that simple enough for you?

"If you can turn off the wrong transfer pump it will happen,"

..and if you do turn off the wrong transfer pump, the system, after telling you which one to turn off in the first place, will tell you that you have turned off the wrong one!
Besides, a pilot turning off the wrong pump, isn't a fault within the fuel system now is it!
Is that simple enough for you?

How are the other experiments coming along?
You're coming along nicely, well done :E

http://www.furrytalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/1.gif

[Ornis]

Ah, the pilot and the dog ... The dog stops the pilot touching the (wrong) pump?

I'd enjoy a picture of the flying milk float too.

[yellowbird135]

2. I now have a very clean 2.27l ex-milk container.

Although the smell is probably a world apart from how it used to.... :suspect:

[TeeS]

Brought across from the Glasgow thread:


Come on Sid, I'm sure that you know the PFD triangle has nothing to do with balance?
Cheers
TeeS

Mmm, it goes away when I 'step on it', I get reminded about it on OPC's and it does feel nicer when it's not on the screen.
You're not confusing it with the track triangle on the ND are you TeeS?

Hi Sid

The triangle is letting you know that the yaw SEMA(s) are running out of authority. If this was to have happened in pitch or roll, this signal would go, via the autopilot, to the trim motors attached to the cyclic - the cyclic then moves allowing the actuators to reposition towards a more central position. Since the yaw pedals don't have trim motors, you take the place of them.

So, assuming the yaw SEMA finds itself towards the limit of applying right pedal, the triangle will appear to the right so, you apply right pedal - as you apply the right pedal, the SEMA can wind back towards the centre of its range; however, there has been no actual input to the fenestron.

This is why you can often get the triangle asking for right pedal and the ball asking for left pedal. I usually clear the triangle first and then the ball, mainly because I usually fly out of balance anyway :-)

Cheers

TeeS

[SilsoeSid]

Thought so, but I like things simple :\

[Art of flight]

"Since the yaw pedals don't have trim motors, you take the place of them."

Great to know the pilot is trusted with something!

[TeeS]

That would be a Bo105 Sid, happy days :-)

[SilsoeSid]

Right, I'm getting the red string fitted, blow the cost!
:ouch:

[SASless]

How crass.....Mauve looks much better!

[SilsoeSid]

Lol,

I looked up what mauve should be and found;
"Mauve is more grey and more blue than a pale tint of magenta would be."

Then I found;
"Magenta is not found in the visible spectrum of light. Rather, it is physiologically and psychologically perceived as the mixture of red and blue light, with the absence of green."

So in a nutshell, the 135 already has or might have a Mauve-ish bit of string fitted, just that we can't see it :confused:

[chopper2004]

I do recall it was the 20th Anniversary of the EC135 the other day? Don't think it was on Valentines Day lol but the day after?

Anyone celebrated it? Any special color scheme by Airbus Helicopters?


Cheers

[chris59]

Hi Any EC135 drivers in southern UK who might be able to answer a few questions please PM me Thanks in advance

[SilsoeSid]

I have a question .... When do we stop the clock?

[VNAv8r]

Greetings

Like to run the performance numbers on capabilities of the newer models to operate in a continual ISA+20 environment from SL up to 8000' PA. Max payload, range, endurance, IGE/OGE hover....

Appreciate if some interested folks can pm me and send soft copy of Flight manual extracts. I have an excel template that can send out to be filled in also. Checking to see feasibility to getting one working here.

[skadi]

AHD added a fifth blade together with some major design changes on the tailboom:

Helionline.de (http://www.helionline.net/865-620732-350557/photogallery///41688.html)

http://www.helionline.net/865-620732-350557/picture/41688/big.jpg

skadi

[Lima Oscar]

Maybe the new fenestron, main rotor and blades of the X4 project ?

[skadi]

Maybe the new fenestron, main rotor and blades of the X4 project ?

The X4 will be the replacement for the Dauphin/EC155 class, for the 135 it is called the X9 project.

skadi

[Lima Oscar]

I didn't know about the X9 program but the EC135 s/n 001 seems to have been the testbed of a lot of things from Eurocopter so...

[skadi]

Heres a listing of the different programms of AH:


http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/507723-eurocopter-4-new-rotorcraft-2020-x4-x6-x9.html#post7688603

skadi

[SilsoeSid]

After 2 shocks today, have they finally got rid of the collective / metal watch strap phenomenon?

[sherpa]

Sweaty hands eh?... Keep your hand on the collective twist grips and you want get zapped. I think is designed to switch the transponder to GND and VEMD flight time recording, although not sure on the later.

[SilsoeSid]

Sweaty hands eh?... Keep your hand on the collective twist grips and you want get zapped.

Far from it sherpa, I'm not one for holding the collective 'top box'.
Apart from missing the bit of my post that says "collective / metal watch strap", its a bit hard operating the radio selection box, which is when the shock occurs, without taking a hand off the twist grips! ;)

[RVDT]

Why you get a shock?

A relay is an electro-mechanical switch that opens and closes under the control of another electric circuit.
When current flows through the coil of the relay, a magetic field is created that causes an armature to move, either
making or breaking an electrical connection. When current is removed from the relay coil, the armature returns to
its rest position. It is important to place a diode across the coil of the relay because a spike of voltage is generated
when the current is removed from the coil due to the collapse of the magnetic field.

The pin in the end of the collective grounds the primary coil of the "Ground Relay 2CX".

As the field within the relay collapses (through your arm) you get a taste of the spike. Ouch!

I have personal experience and it definitely bites.

32-60-03 Ground Relay

PP20E -> CB 1CX GROUND REL -> Relay 2CX -> 8VE COLLECTIVE PIL

It controls various things through TB27 A,T,J and V respectively.

Maybe 2p worth of diode may fix it!

Needles to say that the radios may endure the spike as well?

[RVDT]

EC135-31-070 DISPLAY AND RECORDING SYSTEMS – Vision 1000 - Retrofit of a Vision 1000 cockpit camera

Description
The Vision 1000 is a cockpit imaging and flight data monitoring device and is installed on the center post.
The system captures critical inertial and GPS positioning data as well as cockpit imagery and ambient noises.
The flight data, imagery and noises are stored on a crash-hardened memory module as well as on a removable SD HC card for use in the management and visualization program.

Benefits for the customer

Increased operational safety - Can be used to replay the flight scenarios during training

Recording of positioning data (location, altitude, etc.)

Recording of cockpit imagery (instrument panel, flight controls, partial exterior view) and ambient noises


Analysis of recorded data with the management and visualization software (included)

Additional 3D software available at Appareo Systems (http://www.appareo.com) (not included)

Technical features
Weight: approx. + 0.8 kg
Image resolution: 2 megapixels
Image frame rate: 4 frames per second
Audio frequency range: 50 Hz - 15 kHz

Removable Flash Memory - SDHC card, storage capacity: 16 GB,
Storage time: 4 hours image/audio/GPS/inertial

On-Board Flash Memory - storage capacity: 8 GB,
Storage time: 2 hours image/audio/GPS/inertial

Kits -

Vision 1000 camera EUR 7500.00
Retrofit of the reading light EUR 150.00
Name plates CB I, CB II, SW III EUR 750.00
Standard parts EUR 50.00

Labour -

Electric - ~ 30 Hours
Mechanical ~ 25 Hours

Looks to be a fairly effective solution considering the options available.

[SilsoeSid]

Thanks RVDT, although I think it has been covered previously in this thread. I was just asking if the new design might have a different grounding system, removing the chance of this little shock.

Mind you sometimes it comes in handy after going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and :ooh:

[John Eacott]

Airbus Modifies EC135 as Environmental Tech Testbed
(http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ainalerts/2014-09-25/airbus-modifies-ec135-environmental-tech-testbed)

A German photographer spotted a modified EC135 at Airbus Helicopters’ development facility in Donauwörth, Germany. Most striking is the light twin’s new horizontal empennage, moved to the top of the vertical fin.

The bottom of the vertical empennage also has a different design and the tailboom now appears to have a circular cross-section. In addition, the helicopter sports five main rotor blades–instead of four on the stock EC135–with swept tips. The landing skids also have been redesigned.

Asked whether the helicopter is the prototype of a new EC135 variant, Airbus Helicopters answered that it is “testing environmentally friendly technologies on a demonstrator aircraft.” While the EC135 is being used as a testbed, Airbus said the technologies should be seen as “transversal,” meaning not specifically intended for any one particular helicopter model.

Meanwhile, the manufacturer is gearing up for the first delivery of the latest EC135 version, the EC135 T3/P3, which was previously delayed to the fourth quarter. Announced at Heli-Expo 2013, the new model offers several improvements over the current EC135 T2i/P2i, yielding a 66-pound mtow increase and improved hot/high performance.

http://www.helionline.net/517-967277-601996/picture/41688.jpg

[212man]

I'm guessing some X4 linked technologies...

[that chinese fella]

Can anyone shed any light on a co-pilot reversible seat for the 135?

I see it listed in the IPC, Chapter 25, as 'against FD' (Flight direction I am guessing) and the picture showing it facing backwards, but I have had no luck finding any other ref to it?

TCF

[Jet Ranger]

Yes, usually it's a part of HEMS (single-pilot) configuration, or in hoist operation configurations (HHO)...with hoist on left side.

JR

[tqmatch]

Is it just me, or does that machine appear to have 5 MRBs ?

[John Eacott]

Is it just me, or does that machine appear to have 5 MRBs ?


The bottom of the vertical empennage also has a different design and the tailboom now appears to have a circular cross-section. In addition, the helicopter sports five main rotor blades–instead of four on the stock EC135–with swept tips. The landing skids also have been redesigned.

So it isn't just you ;)

[chopper2004]

Airbus Helicopters? EC135 T3/P3 Receives EASA Certification | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2014/10/21/airbus-helicopters-ec135-t3p3-receives-easa-certification/)

[chopper2004]

The T3 first customer lol

Aiut Alpin Dolomites receives first EC135 T3/P3 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2014/10/30/aiut-alpin-dolomites-receives-first-ec135-t3p3/)

Cheers

[Shawn Coyle]

I wonder if there will be a weight increase to 7,500 pounds....

[tqmatch]

Think I need stronger glasses John

[Phoinix]

The Category A performance, Mass limitations - specified for:
Clear heliport - external equipment is a factor
VTOL(1-3) - external equipment is NOT a factor

Logical, when it comes to Cruise flight OEI, external equipment is a factor at Vy (65 kts) - actually in the exact same way as with Clear heliport.

I'm having problems with understanding how Clear heliport Cat A ops. are effected by external equipment when TDP/LDP's are up to 40 kts (with the same deductions as at 65kts)
and
VTOL ops. are not effected by external equipment even when FLIR and the SX-16 are in the downwash - vertical drag region.


Any ideas?

[Phoinix]

Anybody got the position of RH/LH installed hoist system? I could only find the mass of installed system (approx. 54 kg) but nothing on the position of the system and the lateral and longitudinal position for hoist load.

The supplement manual holds no required information, only a chart showing when you are ok and when not... not very accurate.

[SilsoeSid]

Phoinix,

I have in front of me; FMS 9.2-20 "Supplement For External Hoist System LH/RH Side" ... pages 1-24.

Is this the same info you already have?

Para 6.1 of Supplement;
Mass and Balance Correction says " Refer to Equipment List entries in Section 6 of the basic Flight Manual.

From Sect 6 of FLM;
6.2.2 "An Equipment List form EL-1 is appended to this section and contains optional equipment of the particular helicopter when delivered. Each item on the list is provided with a number and description for identification, together with its mass, arm and moment."

Hope that's of some help :confused:

[Phoinix]

Yes... but the hoist was not installed at delivery and there is no entry. ECD normally had SB's with details what to enter into the Equipment list, but I found none.

Do you happen to have a filled out EL for hoist?


Also the Supplement said nothing about the station for hoist cable (M&B calculations for hoist ops.) The Fig. 3 doesn't cut it for me :)

[SilsoeSid]

Sorry Phoinix, we don't have a hoist fitted, perhaps someone at Bond (http://corporatejetinvestor.com/articles/greater-gabbard-wind-farm-opens-303/) or possibly over on the continent will be able to help you on this one.

I take it you just want to know the mass, arm and moment of the hoist unit when fitted?

[Brilliant Stuff]

Hi Phoinix,

I can have a look at ours, they used to have winches fitted but I can't promise anything.

Otherwise ask Rotordomteur (I think that's his handle) he flies to the wind turbines, he should know. Also one of his aircraft works out of Humberside doing the same thing fi you want to ring them. The company is called Uni-Fly.

[Phoinix]

Thanks guys. I appreciate your help! If you have the chance, please check your FLM, otherwise I'll contact Rotordomteur.

:ok:

[Brilliant Stuff]

Had a look in the EL today but no mention of it, I assume they took it all out since we are not using it.

[Phoinix]

Thank you for looking. I just came to ECD, I'll ask them. If they don't know.... :)

[Jet Ranger]

Hi Phoenix,
check supplement 9.2-117.

Actually, there is nothing in RFM about that. Hoist is directly mounted on the transmission (correction: on transmission mount), no influence. You only have to add this 54 kg to the Gross Mass. After that, there is a chart in supp. 9.2-117 which tells you how much kg you can take on the hoist. It varies from 226 kg down to 150 kg (or 120 kg I'm not sure). So, it's not about the station and longitudinal CG (no influence), it's only about the Maximum Gross Weight and about the mass which you can take on hoist - lateral CG (that is what you must calculate for the conditions).

JR

[TeeS]

Hi Jet Ranger

Hoist is directly mounted on the transmission, so station should be zero (0), no influence.

The whole helicopter is mounted on the transmission so I'm not sure this statement quite stands up to scrutiny.

Cheers

TeeS

[Fortyodd2]

Jet Ranger,
The C of G datum on the 135 - in common with most ABH products is 2.16 metres in front of the leveling point, (approx where the cyclic is).
In other words, out in front of the aircraft - consequently, all data points for things fitted are "minus".

[Jet Ranger]

Sorry if I expressed myself incorrectly...wanted to say...hoist is in line with rotor mast, so no influence on longitudinal CG (you can't find any data about the station in RFM or particular SUPPLEMENT)

JR

[TeeS]

Hi again Jet Ranger

http://www.airbushelicopters.com/w1/jrotor/76/iso_album/rotor76_26a.jpg

The mounting point is not where the mass acts on C of G, it is the centre of mass of the winch (and any load on the winch) that is important.

Cheers

TeeS

[Jet Ranger]

Hi TeeS,

on this pictures we see winch in stowed position, but when is in extended position the mass on winch acts in CG.
I would appreciate if you have any data about it´s station.

JR

[TeeS]

I'll see what I can find out JR, I'm not directly involved in hoisting operations with the 135 but we do have people who are.

Cheers

TeeS

[SilsoeSid]

In the meantime, a vid of the winch in action;

0Op3y9_TCzM

:ok:

[Ian Corrigible]

That 'environmental tech testbed' spotted last September (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/189945-ec135-53.html#post8680518) finally breaks cover:

Eco-friendly and eco-efficient technologies of tomorrow take to the sky with Airbus Helicopters’ Bluecopter demonstrator (http://www.airbushelicopters.com/website/en/press/_1801.html)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJT9qIzWsAAkhPP.jpg (http://www.airbushelicopters.com/website/docs_wsw/img/x1000/RUB_151/press_1801/originals/Bluecopter%2BDemonstrator_Copyright%2BAirbus%2BHelicopters%2 52C%2BCharles%2BAbarr.jpg?t=©+Airbus+Helicopters+Charles+Aba rr&tS=8)

For comparison:

.......http://i.imgur.com/ZNm2UyV.jpg (http://www.military.ie/typo3temp/pics/df0a5b24e0.jpg)

I/C

[laurenson]

Single engine cruise... It look nice but what is behind this concept, an idle or a full shut down? And is the drag reduction allow to maintained the VBR around 135-140kts on one engine?

[Brilliant Stuff]

And is the RCU placed in a sensible place........Love the Fenestron blades.

[bilekhawk]

sir;
As I learn from internet, German Army use EC-135 as basic training helicopter. What is your opinion about it? Can you train all emergency manuevers with that helicopter? As we know, multi-engine helicopters are handicapped for this way. For example have you ever train tail rotor emergencies or full touch autorotations? and also I have more questions about it. If you reply I'll be pleased. Thank you.

[Phoinix]

EC120 is their primary...

[whoknows idont]

EC120 is their primary...

Wrong, you are thinking of the police force.
Army actually does do basic training on 135 as a result of highly successful lobbying from EC. They do a couple of hours of AR training on the 105.
My opinion: Ineffective as a primary trainer. Gigantic waste of tax payers money. There would have been so many better and more effective choices, but if they really had to obey to the EC people so badly they could at least have gone with the 120 option. This is a nice example of the difference between police and military aviation.

[patatas]

Hey guys,
Does anyone have the H135 supplement manual for winch/hoist operations, including performance?

If is there any further material or presentation regarding the H135 hoist operation I would appreciate.
Thank you in advance

[Phoinix]

Indeed, sorry bout that.

Anybody knows the differences training requirements from P2+ to P3?

[skadi]

Anybody knows the differences training requirements from P2+ to P3?

8h "classroom" and 1h flighttime, for what reason ever....

skadi

[Phoinix]

Thank you!

[Phoinix]

Is anyone familiar with the details of Dutch Police EC135 training mode incident some years ago?
After failing to lower the collective when the training mode disarmed (RRPM bellow 92%, 10 seconds buffer elapsed), they overtorqued the engines and XMSN. Another source also claims the rotor overspeed.

What exactly was happening in the cockpit? Any reports out there?

[RVDT]

Phoinix,

It sure will. Pretty sure there is a note in the RFM about it somewhere.

The terminology used might "disguise" the issue a bit.

If you think about what is actually going on I think you will find it is NORMAL.

Exceeding Power ON RPM limits - it disarms so you would expect things to come back to normal in a big hurry.

Of course dumping the collective rapidly to counter the over torque could easily end up with an overspeed as well so ...................

[Phoinix]

Thanks RVDT. Any info on the actual events of the incident?

[captchopper]

I seek inputs from experience 135 drivers and engineers. About a month back we started feeling some vertical vibrations which kept increasing slowly in about 15hrs of flying. We did the Vibrex and found one of my main rotor blades out of track. It was Up around 1inch as compared to the other three in hover. The engineer corrected the tracking by bringing this blade down.
After about 10hrs more of flying v felt the same vibrations still but lesser amplitude. At a gap of around 20hrs we did the Vibrex again to find the same blade higher then others..
What can cause the same blade flying up gradually out of track?
Does anyone know of composite degradation of an EC135 blade? And too in causing increased flapping.

Appreciate you inputs if someone has experienced the similar thing.

[Helilife100]

The first possibility is unlikely but worth checking. You should ensure that the lower lobes of the MRS hub are not cracked on the rising blade.

The next quite likely possibility is to ensure that you do not have cracked main rotor blade tabs. Use a magnifying glass.

There is also a replaceable spherical bearing inside the Blade cuff on a beam that attaches the flex beam to the frequency adaptors. I would check that as well as it can turn into a maraca quite swiftly once it starts wearing, this will also affect the track and hence vertical balance. It is best practice to change all of them if you find one worn.

This depends on the blade part number. The blades do have a tendency to crack and craze a bit along the trailing edges but this should not affect the flight of the blade. The crack to look out for is one that starts about a metre from the cuff on the trailing edge and propagates at an angle of 45 degrees. But I have seen them up to a couple of inches long and only found them on a detailed inspection so they don't appear to affect the flight of the blade. That one will cost you a few bob unless you have been wise enough to buy PBH.

Last but not least: It is always best to raise a Technical Enquiry (TE) in your Keycopter account. If you haven't got one then please do apply. It is worth it. You will have access to the horses mouth and your snag will then become part of product support and improvement for everyone.

I hope this post finds me blathering into the ethernet (which I rarely do) and your engineers have already fixed the problem.

[captchopper]

Actually I have been looking forward to get any reply here.. Thank you so much for taking the time.
👍
We are suspecting the link connecting the dampers and the flex beam. On ground when v are flapping the blade there is a different noice coming.


As u described.
There is also a replaceable spherical bearing inside the Blade cuff on a beam that attaches the flex beam to the frequency adaptors. I would check that as well as it can turn into a maraca quite swiftly once it starts wearing, this will also affect the track and hence vertical balance. It is best practice to change all of them if you find one worn.

Thanks again.

[katismo]

Hi,

I have a question for P3 experienced pilots. This aircraft has a bad fish tail attitude in cruise flight. More wind - more movements left to right. Example 15 kt tailwind it was fighting 5 degreed left to right all the way (NAV mode on). I have a years of experience with P2+, but only few weeks (20h) with this almost brand new P3. I know about difference of the model and heard about this tail movements, but it doesn't feel good. One day we had quite of turbulent weather and it was awful to fly with. Any comments?

[MightyGem]

Has there been a Service Bulletin issued since the Cayman Islands Police incident?

[DEGRADE]

Hi
no SB yet. longitudinal servo failure

AAIB uk and Germany on the case

Hyd pack with Airbus.

And my underwear in the wash!!!!!

[MightyGem]

Ahh, DEGRADE. I take it you were flying it at the time?

[DEGRADE]

Ahh, DEGRADE. I take it you were flying it at the time?
ERIC was hands on for what it was worth!!

[MightyGem]

ERIC was hands on for what it was worth!!
Yes, I was just wondering if you were Eric. :) Good job done, anyway. :ok:

[Brilliant Stuff]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1077x928/fac88324_b689_4c7d_8816_019b32af9c19_387644a43273b671b2f30e6 c39ea39847e9c459a.jpeg
Anyone able to tell me why this 135 has that little damm in front of the static port? Haven’t seen it before on the 8 different 135s I have come across...

[wrench1]

Anyone able to tell me why this 135 has that little damm in front of the static port? Haven’t seen it before on the 8 different 135s I have come across...
Is this one configured the same as the other 8 from an optional equipment stand point? Is it on both sides?

"Dams" are usually installed when something is added that affects airflow at the static port and its sensitivity.

[blackdog7]

Looks like someone in Donauworth might have drilled supporting holes in the wrong spot.

[Flying Bull]

well, we had similar “Ram-blades“ on the BK 117, which had to be changed with different configurations (FLIR build on or not)

[Brilliant Stuff]

Both sides had the same modification. That’s all I know.

[C.F.I. Care]

Anyone ever flip on their battery master switch and not get the low rotor rpm tone? Or get just the gong instead? Or no sound at all?

Some more detail:

Ship is a P1. A previous warning unit worked great for about a year, then it started to act up. Sometimes when we turned on the master battery switch it worked correctly, you’d get the low rotor rpm tone, hit reset on the cyclic, then get the gong. But intermittently, we’d get no low rotor rpm tone, just straight to the gong, and sometimes neither tone, just silence.

We replaced that one and it worked fine for another year. Then we figured out the warning unit we put in wasn’t calibrated for the 95% low rotor rpm threshold for the P1, but instead for 97%. So we got a brand new unit from Airbus (complete with a check engine light…), calibrated for 95% and stuck it in. Now we’re having the same intermittent issue with the tones not coming on when you flip on the battery master.

Could this be a voltage thing? Could low battery voltage cause the warning unit not to make the tones? Could this be a compatibility thing between the new unit and the old aircraft?

Thanks!

[RVDT]

Anyone able to tell me why this 135 has that little damm in front of the static port? Haven’t seen it before on the 8 different 135s I have come across...

135H? Helionix? 3 big screens in the front?

Optional on 1 thru 3 versions and possibly standard on H version.
SB EC135‐34‐045 Valid for Versions: T1, T2, T2+, T3, P1, P2, P2+, P3 635 T1, 635 T2+, 635 T3, 635 P2+, 635 P3
Recommended for helicopters having problems with entry of water in static ports.

[RVDT]

Warning unit shenanigans

Before you go replacing the WU again I would be checking that your ICS is not the issue or the RESET button on both cyclics if fitted.

[gipsymagpie]

I thought I understood the FADEC FAIL / manual throttle logic but was recently given a new perspective from someone who was taught by factory TRI. Looking for some 2nd opinions.

Currently teaching is that when you get a FADEC FAIL / manual throttle, you set the engine to 80% N1 /20-30% torque respectively iaw the PCL. Then (and this the critical part) you are limited to AEO limits on remaining engine. However, people being taught by Airbus TRI are saying the “good” engine is limited to OEI. This of course would make the whole procedure simple. Set and forget in a sea level/temperate environment. Even the roll off on the ground becomes simple. (Obviously it does mention AEO limits in the PCL but only if you subsequently increase the manual throttle above 80% N1/30% torque).

This is discussed in this thread going back 11 years but I was wondering if anyone had anything in writing from the Airbus TRI? There is one mention in the training manual of this in that it says one of the triggers for “OEI mode” of the FLI is a FADEC FAIL but it’s specific to T3/P3 (OEI mode shifts where the “bong” happens - instead of 10 FLI, it’s 13.5 FLI).

[Brilliant Stuff]

I thought I understood the FADEC FAIL / manual throttle logic but was recently given a new perspective from someone who was taught by factory TRI. Looking for some 2nd opinions.

Currently teaching is that when you get a FADEC FAIL / manual throttle, you set the engine to 80% N1 /20-30% torque respectively iaw the PCL. Then (and this the critical part) you are limited to AEO limits on remaining engine. However, people being taught by Airbus TRI are saying the “good” engine is limited to OEI. This of course would make the whole procedure simple. Set and forget in a sea level/temperate environment. Even the roll off on the ground becomes simple. (Obviously it does mention AEO limits in the PCL but only if you subsequently increase the manual throttle above 80% N1/30% torque).

This is discussed in this thread going back 11 years but I was wondering if anyone had anything in writing from the Airbus TRI? There is one mention in the training manual of this in that it says one of the triggers for “OEI mode” of the FLI is a FADEC FAIL but it’s specific to T3/P3 (OEI mode shifts where the “bong” happens - instead of 10 FLI, it’s 13.5 FLI).


I see you are in the Southwest, have you spoken to Jesse, what he doesn't know about 135s is not worth knowing....

[Brilliant Stuff]

Anyone ever flip on their battery master switch and not get the low rotor rpm tone? Or get just the gong instead? Or no sound at all?

Some more detail:

Ship is a P1. A previous warning unit worked great for about a year, then it started to act up. Sometimes when we turned on the master battery switch it worked correctly, you’d get the low rotor rpm tone, hit reset on the cyclic, then get the gong. But intermittently, we’d get no low rotor rpm tone, just straight to the gong, and sometimes neither tone, just silence.

We replaced that one and it worked fine for another year. Then we figured out the warning unit we put in wasn’t calibrated for the 95% low rotor rpm threshold for the P1, but instead for 97%. So we got a brand new unit from Airbus (complete with a check engine light…), calibrated for 95% and stuck it in. Now we’re having the same intermittent issue with the tones not coming on when you flip on the battery master.

Could this be a voltage thing? Could low battery voltage cause the warning unit not to make the tones? Could this be a compatibility thing between the new unit and the old aircraft?

Thanks!


One of our cabs has got the same problem, it's also a P1 of '99 vintage but the warning still works when you toggle the test switch and when you explore the limits.

[whoknows idont]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x900/367988153_692990406199045_2886245072615289834_n_0f1db941f534 f98d5621ee0ce2520a200e496e46.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/828x461/367979097_10227511292305480_4705256186209082603_n_766f74cf1a 6dee4d22cac73e1d52505232f465b3.jpg
source:
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1946x1070/2023_08_24__ebb04b6dca90416fab1d3cc7d9e31b6fdf4a459a.png

5-blade T4 prototype?

[gipsymagpie]

Beanie hat suggests the blades are spaced closer together. Also new tailplane, new cowlings, removed oil cooler fan exhaust and revised oil cooler intakes

[Phoinix]

Only Airbus has the power to make this a variant (yet again).

[RVDT]

This has been bubbling in the background for years.

Due to the design of the rotor head it isn't much of a challenge to add a blade as most of the "components" are in the blade cuff which is now seperate from the blade as per BK117-D3.

The mast is a simple design. I would say the R&D was done for the BK117 D3 and they just scaled it down.

A trade in the design I would bet on as being 5 bladed the ARIS mounts are now gone.

Fenestron looks to be slightly larger and some stator vanes have been removed?

The cab has a lot more composite structure.

And yes it will apparently be a "variant". I know there was a struggle to keep the H145 as a "variant" of the BK117.

Even the 135 is up to about 27 different "variants". Wouldn't be surprised if there is only one engine choice and by the look of the skinny tailpipes a "T" model.

[Phoinix]

So even the cab is of different design, sliding and front doors also. Same type 🤣

H145 and BK117, say C2, have very few things in common…I bet there is a lot of AH workforce in EASA offices.

[RVDT]

I bet there is a lot of AH workforce in EASA offices.

Oh yes!

[whoknows idont]

Might be imagination but in the pictures it seems like maybe they got rid of the broom closet and went all flex ball cables like in the EC145.
Interestingly they seem to have not adopted some noteworthy features from the Bluecopter demonstrator, like the active rudder, the curved blades on main and tail rotor as well as the fancy aerodynamic cowlings.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1584x984/2_de6f03635aaf2ec6fcb637754261064189548cba.png

[FiveBlades]

Is it me or does the fuselage look longer...Single engine HEMS variant for the American market...Electric backup option for EASA Hems approval...

[Agile]

Is it me or does the fuselage look longer...Single engine HEMS variant for the American market...Electric backup option for EASA Hems approval...
I think the tail boom is longer, and the back clam shell doors are taller and a bit extended. Seem to be a preemptive upgrade to fight off any possible advantage that the SH09 (leonardo/marenco) is preparing to offer.

[ReefPilot]

Anyone have any ideas of where I could get my hands on an end of life fenetron blade or other lifed EC135 parts....?

Cheers
RP

[havick]

Anyone have any ideas of where I could get my hands on an end of life fenetron blade or other lifed EC135 parts....?

Cheers
RP

Where do you live? I’m replacing out H135 fenestron blade set in a couple of months.

what do you want them for?

[Sir Korsky]

A mechanic I used to work with made a clock from the whole assembly. It was actually pretty cool !

[212man]

A mechanic I used to work with made a clock from the whole assembly. It was actually pretty cool !
212 TR pitch change links make good bottle openers!

[ReefPilot]

Where do you live? I’m replacing out H135 fenestron blade set in a couple of months.

what do you want them for?

Mate is retiring after a long career, I'm in the UK. Let me know if we can make a deal :}

Cheers!