EC135

[eurocopter beans]

Didnt say it was a difficult situation... for demo purposes. Any idea why it would be illegal?

[212man]

Is there no cyclic trim switch on the overhead panel?

[FloaterNorthWest]

Been a while since I was current on the EC135 but from memory I thought you could switch off A TRIM using the switch in the top left corner of the photo.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z29/rich902cove/ATrimcopy.jpg

212 Man is correct about the CB, only way to fly without trim is to keep your thumb on the FTR.

FNW

[212man]

FNW, I think you mistook my question - in the 155 there is a switch on the overhead panel that turns off the cyclic trim 'mag-brake' to give you a 'floppy stick' (ooh er missus, to pre-empt any comment!). This is equivelant to holding in the FTR button, but without the force required. Turning off the auto Tri
will just mean you can't engage any upper modes that use the cyclic, and the SEMAs may saturate and require cyclic position to be re-datumned to centralise them. But that's the 155 a the 135 may not have such a switch. I'd be surprised if the autotrim cb would yield this outcome.

[RVDT]

212man,

There is no switch in the 135 to turn off the "force trim".
This may be helpful.


http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5377/ftrjb4.png (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ftrjb4.png)

[Land of LA]

Very convenient when you fly with the P/R sas inop for 7 days. Sure wish I could just turn it off and hand fly it. UUGH!

[CyclicRick]

We've had an awful lot of inverter captions lately(t2+), engineers think it's due to the cold which made me wonder how you chaps in Norway or Austria get on. It's very intermittant and as far as my experience goes, completely unpredictable. Anyone else?
Rick

[RVDT]

FYI,

The latest FMS 9.2-48 AFCS. Third Issue 18.02.2008.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4158/fms9248my1.png (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fms9248my1.png)

[zorab64]

CyclicRick - don't know how cold it's been with you but, I imagine, colder than our infrequent -5 deg, which we think is "cold"; but I've not seen an inverter caption, in same type, in over 5 years. :ok:

[cvlux]

Hi,
has anybody of you any experiance to operate an EC135 for pax charter operations?

[Phoinix]

More questions arising...

Radioaltimeter on EC135. I can't seem to find it in the supplement section of FLM to find answers to my questions. We fly NVG and from time to time rely on radioaltimeter for operational usage. I've noticed that the system does not detect trees or rough terrain. For example as we fly over trees the relative height indicated is not to the tree tops but mostly to the ground. That could be a 100ft difference when we would already be scraping the tree tops. I'm not use to having this problem on our older models (212, 412). I was told from our engineers that bell uses first radar echo as a indicator of height no matter how small the surface under the radar is. As EC135 has a logic of average surface area from echo. For example if a tree is right under the radio altimeter and the ground is a 100 below, the system will due to trees smaller surface average out the tree to a few feet only thus showing slightly less height than the height to the ground is.

Any clue or literature on that EC135 radio altimeter logic?



Second question is also the kind that I could not find in any manual. I know that I could access inflight EPC resoults from maintenance menu but I can't seem to do that now. I follow the procedure published in training manual but the inflight EPc resoult menu is empty when the system asks me for the flight number. I'm not sure if the EPC inflight tests are done regulary as we have 8 pilots flying one helicopter. I know that the flight report only shows the data for last 30 flights from maintenance menu. Is that the case with EPC menu also?

Thank you!

[handysnaks]

Radalt--Don't know

EPC results, if they're not in there, they are probably not being done, simple solution, do one yourself, then check once you've landed to see whether it's there!!

Our results seem to store correctly

[RVDT]

Rad Alt - Bendix King KRA 405

Normally pretty accurate (<1m ≤ 200m Rad Alt).

The issue of course is the density or variation of the trees below you. Would you like it to indicate the height of each tree you have just passed over? The antennas are on the tailboom after all, it doesn't look forward. If the trees were ~ 100' each I guess as the indication would be wildly fluctuating you would assume that you were over trees! Having used them for geophysical work and from memory at a cover of >50% they would read the distance to the tree tops. That information was "smoothed" in the indicator to the pilot. The raw data which was recorded was all over the place and was smoothed in the data post processing. As opposed to your requirement we actually wanted to know where the ground was so estimated the tree height and flew at a lower Rad Alt accordingly until passing the trees. There is obviously a damping algorithm but who knows what it is. I would guess that it is probably the same as your old Bell was. Sounds like you are pretty low on NVG's in uncharted territory and relying on data that can be "incorrect". Rather you than me.

If you have some time on your hands you may be abe to work it out from here - TSO C87 (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5Crgtso.nsf/0/2C417369F3ACFDD886256DC70062A5C1?OpenDocument)

As for the EPC - see the previous. Only so many kept "on file". An EPC trend is required if you operate "Cat A" - see RFM Supplement. Be aware EPC data, ECD Ground Power Check, and engine manufacturers data/method may vary. You cannot mix the 3. ECD EPC data is acquired at 2 x 60% Q at S & L. ECD Ground Power Check done using airframe data and "eyeball" with one engine in idle. Engine Manufacturer check normally on the ground with one engine in idle and acquired by ground based software using EEC parameters. See RFM Section 5.

[Phoinix]

It's not so much of uncharted territory as to unusual of being relatively lower than the RA would show. Colegues had the problem I described, but I've also noticed this before; during confined area T/O-LDG as the RA didn't catch any of the trees that we have flown over during departure.
Our pilots are aware of this "misleading" reading and we take some safety altitude with it.


I'll perform an EPC test today. We perform checks as per manual at every 100HRS for CAT A and we are some 50 HRS from that check, no wonder it isn't in the memory any more.

Thank you! :ok:

[nodrama]

From a couple of pages back....

P.S. WTF is a BACON Relay?

Boolean Autopilot CONnected, logical signal

[3top]

Hi all,

back to the same over and over again!

Gentlemen, the EC135 is on order and we are getting real close to freeze the ordersheet.

We are aiming for the lightest possible configuration (still needs to be dual/single IFR), but in our environment we are a little limited with IFR infrastructure, so we are aiming to delete what we cannot use.

One fundamental question is still engine choice.
All the fleet is Turbomeca (...ok we have one lonely Bell206), but the question still is if Pratt's would be the better selection or not!

I saw the post about EC135s in Asia (pref. PW).
Our application is hot & humid, sea level to max 12.500 ft (highest elevation in the country .....)
The P&W wins with some 20+ hp better power in some situations, but the question is what is preferable overall in our specific environment.

So, if you guys/gals (mechanics/engineers) have any experience with the EC135 in similar conditions, please advice or let me know where this was already posted!


THanx!

3top:cool:

[FloaterNorthWest]

3top,

I hope you haven't deleted the air con in the weight saving exercise? Life in a hot and humid environment would be unbearable without it! The 135 is a hot, stuffy aircraft even in a British summer.

FNW

[3top]

Thanx Guys!!

On the A/C I will try to push the Aircomm unit - least weight and best performance, no trouble!

Good point on the "guaranteed" weight - will definitely recommend this to the boss!!

Eddie1, is there anything specific pro/con P&W?
I mean start-up issues is a good one anyhow and maintenance/spares too.
However we probably will go with the power per hour program, so spares may be out of the equation.

I know the Arrius only from the EC120 and it does have a few issues there, but the donks in the 135 are different models....


Thanx again, ....and keep it coming!


3top:cool:

[Phoinix]

When I was in Donauworth for EC135 type rating I was told that PW compared to TM had a 1:10 FADEC failure ratio (partial or complete failure). I don't know if Turbomeca did anything on their systems to correct the problem since then.

[Phoinix]

EC135 does not have a particle separator. It has a sand filter system. We have a sand filter in our storage, but we really didn't use it for the last 550hrs. Depends on your enviroment. I saw saudi arabia using it, german army had it on, but removed it.

If you are intending to use your 135 in a cold enviroment, consider PW as it has fuel/oil heat exchanger.

Spot on on the dirty tail boom. PW's are really smoking. We have a metalic blue on the tailboom and you can hardly see any difference up until 50-70hrs unless you really look up close.

[jayteeto]

Not sure about this non-start first time thing. I have 1500 hours in the police role, short flights + lots of start/stops. It has never ever ever ever failed to start first time. Turbomeca engine. What are you doing wrong???

[jayteeto]

:ok: I didn't mean it like that, sorry if I caused offence. I just wanted to balance the argument. If you don't put the prime pumps on first, it doesn't start very often. The big UK consortium are going for the PW option, so I guess it must be ok as well.

[Helinut]

Just to add to JT2's comment, I have flown a number of EC135s with TM power over a few years in the UK.

There were starting problems with the early versions, if you did not let the prime pumps have a few seconds to do their thing. There were also early problems with the HMUs. However, apart from that and certainly with the later machines my experience on starting is exactly the same as JT2. Perhaps the reputation for poor starts came from that early experience?

[Ian Corrigible]

There are now two inlet barrier filters (IBFs) offered for the EC135 - one from Eurocopter and a second from FDC/aerofilter. AFS is also working on a third system.

Here in the States, the EC135P2+ has been outselling the EC135T2+ by about 3 to 1, though there has been some concern about P&WC's support in recent years due to its heavy focus on the PW600 turbofan (a situation that may improve now that the VLJ market has cooled). To its credit, TM has also been stepping-up its support, despite record production levels.

I/C

[Brilliant Stuff]

I believe the big consortium buy for PW was down to the fact of available machines in a short time since the TM ones appear to have a longer waiting list, also TM want ultra clean water for their engine rinses which used to be daily but PW are happy with tapwater things like this had a bearing as well.

Well this is how I understand it.

All most all of Germany's Air Ambulance use the PW. The one in Berlin (I think) even has airfilters.

[skadi]

All most all of Germany's Air Ambulance use the PW. The one in Berlin (I think) even has airfilters.


DRF and ADAC mostly PW, the orange and blue ones of Federal Police are T2i ( TM ).

Berlin ( Christoph 31 ) is equipped with sandfilters: Christoph 31 testet Sandfilter (ergänzt) | rth.info - Faszination Luftrettung | Rettungshubschrauber online (http://rth.info/news/news.php?id=820)

skadi

[3top]

Hi all,

good info!

The start-up failure of the TMs:
I had that happen on a Arriel (B3).
MY FAULT!
Started to cut down on the primer pump time!
The occasion was with very low fuel and the primer on less than 10 sec...
Manual says 30 sec!! Pilot Error!!

My next concern is what engine is better for hot,humid climate!

PW has 20 more horses at MCP, but slightly lower performance on OEI...

Someone mentioned that TM looks better on "paper" - what's the real life situation?

THanx!

3top, :cool:

[3top]

Another question for all 135 drivers/mechanics/engineers:

Obviously we will need an Airconditioning System or we'll be fried!

EC offers a tropical version....

My question is if someone has experience with either EC aircon and/or the aftermarket AirComm - system.

Going by either companies reputation, this is a no-brainer with the winner being AirComm...

But, I'd rather go for some real life experience.

Thanx,

3top,:cool:

[RVDT]

The EC Air Con is known to have issues with vibration and cracking in various areas, it's weight notwithstanding.

The Air Comm is not the only aftermarket A/C. Metro Aviation builds a similar one. The difference is the compressor on the Metro unit is not in the engine inlet flow. Always wondered what a refrigerant gas leak would do to the engines. Flameout?

[Brilliant Stuff]

Cheers Skadi.

[916]

3top
Someone mentioned to me recently that PW had halved their power by the hour (I think) costs on these engines, in order to win sales.
Can't remember specifics but presumably worth looking into.

[3top]

Thank you gentleman!

Keep it coming! All great info!

I will let you all know how this ends up!


3top,:cool:

[zorab64]

I'd concur with JT2's comments (19th Apr #514) re starting - after over 5 years and around 2000 starts, putting both TM engines to Idle at the same time, the ONLY time they haven't started straight away was when I'd rushed & forgotten the Prime Pumps - my error, not TM!

Brill Stuff (#519) also comments re water rinses. TM used to insist on daily, now happy with weekly unless in salt laden environment, which could be done "hot" (at idle) or "cold" (using vent switch). Hot makes very little difference to operational availability, cold keeps the aircraft off-line for about 10 mins longer. PW still insist on daily and only have a cold procedure, I understand, despite being happy with tap water. Rather depends on what role you're using the aircraft for.

As far as tail boom colour goes, would concur that a dark tail is a must for Police or lots of hovering operations, whether TM or PW. It's the long hovering that cooks the tail - a nearby Air Ambulance (all Yellow) keeps a nice shiny tail as they just go from A-B & the tailboom stays out of the dirty airflow!

Good luck with whatever you end up with - it's a fabulous machine.:ok:

[tpknueven]

Does anyone have pictures of the electrical panel, instrument panel, cyclic and collective controls of an EC135P2.
I am looking for pictures that show the lay out, design and placement of all the controls.

Thanks in advance

[Brilliant Stuff]

TPK the instrument panel should not be any different between the P and T.

Zora just to add, the hot rinsing is a weekly doddle if you have an engineer standing by reason being it needs an engineer to unplug the hoses from the engines since since the connectors are sadly right under the hot section instead of being routed to the outside like the latest 355s

If you only have the pilot it's a bit of a faff.

But fortunately these rinses are now weekly.

[tpknueven]

Thanks for the info. I was able to find exactly what I needed.

[skadi]

As far as tail boom colour goes, would concur that a dark tail is a must for Police or lots of hovering operations, whether TM or PW. It's the long hovering that cooks the tail - a nearby Air Ambulance (all Yellow) keeps a nice shiny tail as they just go from A-B & the tailboom stays out of the dirty airflow!



TM is definitely cleaner. Wipe with your finger in the exhaustpipe and you will see the difference! That has nothing to do with the flightprofile ( hovering operation ). Maybe the Air Ambulance use their time off for cleaning their machine....

skadi

[Brilliant Stuff]

We operate two TM powered 135 50% in the hover and both need their tails painting on a regular basis. Using the thermal camera you can see the abuse the tail gets in the hover. Air Glaze is being trialled next to see if that improves the longevity of the tail paint. The affected area is just after the exhausts up to the stabilizer.

[skadi]

We operate two TM powered 135 50% in the hover and both need their tails painting on a regular basis. Using the thermal camera you can see the abuse the tail gets in the hover. Air Glaze is being trialled next to see if that improves the longevity of the tail paint. The affected area is just after the exhausts up to the stabilizer.


But thats a different cause, the heat. I saw the newer Ts have extra "heatshields" right behind the exhaust pipes.
http://www.helionline.net/463-239890-484354/picture/22916/big.jpg

[3top]

Hey Skadi,

is that the tall/high landing gear?

3top:cool:

[skadi]

@3TOP

Yes, thats correct!

skadi

[3top]

Hi Skadi,

thanks for the speedy reply!

Besides more MR clearance, is there any other advantage with the high gear?
At 26 kg MORE weight then the low one it seems quite heavy ....

3top

[skadi]

These HEMS machines, operated by the German Federal Police are equipped with HELLAS ( Helicopter Laser Radar for obstacle warning ), therefore needing more groundclearance.
The other two major HEMS operators in Germany are using the normal landinggear with the EC 135. Loading a patient its a little bit easier then and ground clearance is also ok.

http://www.helionline.net/539-825022-634025/picture/23745/big.jpg

[Fortyodd2]

3top, Eurocopter are about to make an intermediate skid available for the 135. 100mm more ground clearance and 150mm wider footprint than the Low Skids. According to the 135 project boss, they weigh less than 4Kgs more than the Low Skids.
We have the high skids fitted due to the fact we also have the belly pod with the camera and Nitesun. Even so, given some of the places we land, I'd still prefer the high skid to protect the tail. High skids also give you a better sloping ground capability.

[Retro Coupe]

High skids also give you a better sloping ground capability.


According to the flight manual (EC135T2) they don't.

Slope Left, Slope Right, Nose Up, Nose Down (degrees)

Low Skids: 14, 14, 12, 8
High Skids: 12, 12, 12, 8

With MMI (Mast Moment Indicator) inoperative or not installed : 6 degrees all round.

Any advantage to sitting on High skids (for a Police machine) is removed by having a Nightsun that is only 23cm clear on level ground.

[RVDT]

Metro Aviation in the US have had an "Intermediate" skid extension for years. STC though. Not liked or condoned by ECD.

[Fortyodd2]

"High skids also give you a better sloping ground capability".

....in that your tail/frange is further from the ground in the first place.

But I agree about the nitesun - especially if it is not stowed quick enough before the Radalt switches the power off - at that point, if it's not stowed correctly, the clearance on flat ground is insufficient.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Can floats be fitted to the intermediate-size skids?

[Brilliant Stuff]

ECD now also are selling an intermediate skid if I remember the recent bulletin correctly.

[FloaterNorthWest]

EASA EAD 2009-0106 EC135 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/easaad20090106e.pdf)

[3top]

Hi all,

getting close to close the order (actually we are late, but I hope I still can adjust it to accomodate our changed requirements!)

Guys/gals, anyone with experience on the "hight adjustable pilot/co-pilot seat", with lumbar support, etc....

According to the info from EC it basically allows to lower the seat.

The pilots who will fly this ship are everything from tall to short!
Tallest about 1,87 m.

I would like to know, from tall pilots, how are we dealing with headroom (planning to use my helmet!) and seat/pedal adjustability!

I am at it right now! The sooner you answer the more frosty cold ones I own you!!


3top :cool:

[Phoinix]

We fly helmets with NVG that require a little bit more head space - if you don't want to crack a set of googles. You won't get anywhere close to scratching the interior unless wou want to change pedal setting with NVG tilted upward. Compared to A109, 135 is a wide body concept, even for the tallest pilot we have - measuring 188cm.

[3top]

Hi Phoinix,

thanx for the quick reply!

Well, I rather asked!
I have about 1400 hrs in the EC120 without a helmet and never realised how small it is until I tried it with a shell!
Basically the EC120 is useless for me and a helmet....
In the 350B3 the helmet limits visibility for external cargo ops severly (though one gets used to this...)

Back to the 135:

So you say that your tall guys are just fine with the standard seats?
non-height adjustable ....

How are the standard seats for lumbar support?

( I mean the tech data on the adjustable seats suggests, "" that they are the best of the best and we better get 2 of these...")

However, they certainly cost a lot more and weight more too,...

If your tall guys are happy with the standard seats, we most likely would be fine too...

Thanks for your time!

3top :cool:

[Phoinix]

We have stock seats, only adjustable AFT/FWD. I'm 180 cm and these seats are one of the most comfortable seats I've flown in. We have one smaller pilot, just over 165cm and he also doesn't have any comfort issues on 3 hour flights.

As far as visibility goes, from these seats it isn't a problem. I haven't tryed the height adjustable seats though.

[3top]

Phoinix,

thanx for your info!

I am the 187 cm, but based on your replies I will take a chance with the standard seats! Cheaper (...... less expensive!) and lighter (3.7 kg each seat....)

Another question:
What kind of landing gear are you guys using?
Standard (low), high or custom (like the Metro Aviation 4" leg extension kit)
Any comment on these?

Save flights!

3top :cool:

[jayteeto]

The standard seat is the most comfortable I have used (182cm). We use a sheepskin type cover that is comfortable all year round.

[3top]

Great!

We stay with the standard seats!

Another question:

We will get single/dual IFR - MEGHAS (Avionics Solution 11).
One option is the "fuel management system" - flow meters

I hope/aasume that fuel flow and quantity information would be available on the VEMD (or whatever that part is called in the EC135 - Vehicle and Engine Management Display).

Does anyone have details about this?

Would it be advisable to get the Fuel Management Option and what info does it provide, that is not available on the standard glass cockpit equipment?


I appreciate all your tips on this!!


Cheers,

3top :cool:

[RVDT]

Fuel Management?

What is wrong with the method you have been using to date? The gauge system in the 135 is very accurate. It even accounts for the aircraft attitude. You can change the units from the front end of the VEMD.

The fuel management system uses flow meters. I can't understand why it was done this way as the data is available from the EECU, which would have been a far simpler solution and accurate enough. The A109E/S does it this way.

[skadi]

Even with a height of over 190cm ( 6'4" ) and helmet the standard seats are ok, better than the ones on some of the bigger machines though.

skadi

[3top]

RVDT,

I don't know "what's wrong" with the method up to date!
What is the method in your IFR135?
I never got even near a EC135....

That's why I ask - I know how the 350 and the 120 work and I wondered, why the 135 would not provide this data on the VEMD (or whatever this part is called in the 135) in the standard MEGHAS?

Factory rep informs me that the data derrived from the "Fuel management option" is not available on the standard panel (Avionics solution 11 - MEGHAS).

I assumed that the IFR 135 would have all the latest EC-toys in it!
(There is no Analog Instrumets - IFR option anymore)

According to factory info, the fuel management option gives you fuel remaining in the 3 tanks, fuel flows to the engines and time to engine-out at present powersettings (based on main fuel tank level).

This same data I get in our 350B3s from the VEMD .....

So, those of you who drive MEGHAS-135s, should be in the know!
Maybe you have the option installed! (It is a no-weight option, so I assume it is just some extra-paid software!!)

The option illustration shows a 3-tank symbol with different volumes, the RH tank has less volume and shows a bottom corner cut out.

If you are certain, that you do not have the fuel management option, and you still get the above data with a direct (pictorial and numerical) readout from the panel - I will save some bucks (probably a lot!!), forgoing the option!

Keep it coming!

I also appreciate any other tips, complaints, suggestions, etc.

On Monday I have the last chance to modify the order specs!


Thanx!

3top:cool:

[Tango and Cash]

My understanding is that the VEMD in the EC135 functions slightly differently than the VEMD in the AS350. Probably has to do with German airframe and French electronics, some things got lost in translation. :}

[Brilliant Stuff]

Well in our CPDS machine from 2002 we do not get any fuel management apart from the gauge for the three tanks. Which is within 4%-6% accurate as it says in the manual. But maybe the current machines are more accurate or have more standard options.

[RVDT]

3top,

I assumed that you may have flown a helicopter before but maybe your watch no longer works. Do you keep a log of your fuel flow/consumption based on past history?

Trusting the gizmos implicitly is probably not so wise in any respect.

Study the available tech data you have and work out what is "wrong" with the fuel system. (Read between the lines).

Get back to me when you have worked it out.

BTW MEGHAS and CPDS are not related. A B3 or a 120 are pretty simple compared to a 135.

[victor papa]

It is simple. The b3 and/or 120 has 1 tank which serves as the storage and feeder tank. This means the VEMD display only has one transmitter telling it the fuel available for the whole system and then as you said before the DECU tells the VEMD how much it is using vs the airflow available and power setting. Simple sum for the VEMD and accordingly you get on the B3/Ec130/120 time remaining on current fuel. The 135 has more than 1 tank per engine and the "storage tanks do not feed their info to the vEMD. The result is that the vEMD still gets from the DECU how much fuel is used, but it does not know how much fuel in the system so 1 halve of the sum is gone.

[3top]

Okay guys,

that's all good.
What I don't get, is that EC wants to charge extra, what I would call an essential item, considering the rest of the equipment.
I would certainly assume that it should be a standard/basic feature on a full-blown IFR-MEGHAS ship. Maybe on an old VFR ship you sell this as a "useful" add-on, but on a glass-cockpit-IFR ship - it should be included....

Anyway, based on the answers given, I understand there is no way to look at the panel and get a direct info on "flow + time remaining", without having to calculate - so the fuel management option will be added! (And again, it is a "no-weight option" - just software, extra charge....)

RVDT!

YOU assumed right! I have a few hours rotor time (11.5K and counting)
I know what you get at, and you certainly right!

Just as a basis for discussion, here is what I did in the past/present:

ALL VFR in mostly hostile terrain.
My first two jobs, I did not have a fuel gauge! Everything done by watch!
Of course it is possible to do it by fuel level and watch alone, but:

At my present job (long lining in a mining project) you would have an extremly hard time to do the watch thing, due to the ever changing weights you fly. Flying time with the same fuel load can vary as much as 30 min (50% fuel load).

Fuel gauges are regularly checked/calibrated (tanks drained and refilled by the gallon to check low fuel light and quantity indication).
So they are actually VERY acurate!

I got very appreciative of the "time remaining" feature on the 350 VEMD (by the way in the EC120 you have to pay extra for this too).
It is extremly helpful to know that under pick-up load time remaining may show 27 min to "zero fuel", however once under way power required drops and I will get some 7-9 min back (35 min) - indicated on the VEMD (no need to guess fuel flow and calculate).

One of the missions for this ship(EC135) will be SAR, medevac - over generally hostile terrain. Although we certainly will not plunge into this from zero, we expect to work up to night and IFR missions fairly quickly.

As it is, the EC135 seems to be a rather heavy ship already and fuel will be a limiting factor. Being able to get a few more minutes, based on exact data available may be crucial someday.

But don't worry RVDT, if I ever get close to my empirical flight times on the same fuel load and the gauges/indicators didn't change - I'll be on the ground before the big silence screams at me!

Thanks for all your inputs!

Is there anything else I should consider? experiences? suggestions?

Tomorrow (Monday) is the last round with EC to freeze the order spec sheet ....


Cheers,

3top :cool:

[southerncanuck]

sir, for your SAR mssions, will you be using searchlight or flir camera? if so, do you need mounts?

[3top]

If SAR becomes a need, this will be only a daylight affair for a long time to come...

why? you got mounts to spare?


3top

[southerncanuck]

yes we do, easa and faa stc'd
send a pm, will reply with all the data
cd

[Geoffersincornwall]

Can somebody settle an argument for me and confirm that the EC 135 is certified to +45 degrees C.

[RVDT]

RFM Section 2 Page 5 -

Maximum air temperature is .......................ISA+39C (max +50C)

With the proviso if you have MEGHAS (Glass cockpit) ground or hover is limited to 30 minutes with OAT ≥40C.

EASA Approved Rev. 14 P2 CPDS

[Phoinix]

FLM:

2.10.1 Ambient air temperature limitations

Minimum air temperature is -35°C
Maximum air temperature is ISA+39°C
(max. +50°C)

[Geoffersincornwall]

Thanks, I assume that was a typo and you meant ISA +35

G. :ok:

[RVDT]

Geoff,

No typo it is at it says - meaning I assume you can operate up to ISA +39 not to exceed +50.

ISA +39 at sea level would be ~54 but at ~2000' it wouldn't.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Not being a 135 man I'm not sure of the implications of the 'glass-cockpit' side of things. Are these aircraft in the majority or minority and what sort of intrumentation do you have if no glass cockpit. Is it back to analogue dials and basic DH/HSI ? What if you need an IFR capability with 2 pilots?

G.

[What Limits]

Although the T2/P2 option is now the weapon of choice, I believe that it is still possible to choose between the traditional 'analogue' style intruments (CDS version) or the 'digital' style (CPDS). IFR and two-pilot intrumentation is also an option for both.

I would imagine that most are of the CPDS style although a few T1 CDS linger.

[skadi]

Although the T2/P2 option is now the weapon of choice, I believe that it is still possible to choose between the traditional 'analogue' style intruments (CDS version) or the 'digital' style (CPDS). IFR and two-pilot intrumentation is also an option for both.

I would imagine that most are of the CPDS style although a few T1 CDS linger.


The CPDS is not the same as "glasscockpit", just the engine instruments are "digital style, while in the CDS they are traditional. The actual machines are sold only with CPDS as standard, but you can choose between analog or digital ( "TV screens" ) flight instruments.
The reason for the temp limits with glasscockpit is, that these screens produce a lot of heat and with high OAT may come offline.

skadi

[RVDT]

And so I am told, (without looking it up) the "steam" instruments are heavier.

Appreciate there are about 15 flavours of EC135.

I was also told "never again!"

The MEGHAS (which is now probably the norm) does generate a lot of heat. Add Garmin GPS, FM's etc etc...................................

Death on a hot day!

Appreciate also that the operation/installation or not of the A/C is not within the certification criteria.

We have 9 displays.

[Helinut]

The boys and girls using the EC135 in the Middle East will have much better information than me, but all that glass cockpitry is a bit sensitive to high temperature. Flying for the police in the UK we occasionally get a warmish day and if the aircraft is left out on the pad it can cause problems. Various units use portable radiation shields in the cab to reduce the heat soaked into the instrument panel, which seems to help.

Generally, the glass cockpit is pretty reliable but it does play up when it gets hot. EC have setup the vent system so that it diverts the air to the instrument panel rather than the crew, so they obviously are aware of the issue. I don't have an FM to check but I recall the whole issue starts at 30 C.

[vortexadminman]

Sadly nothing will pass muster with the bean counters. However in this never ending saga of 135 vs 902 for police/HEMS go and ask ALL off them what their (the user or customers) view is. Am sure all of them will say their machine is best................ then ask the ones who have used both.... or more. I prefer 902 as it is a stable. non shaky platform blah blah blah . But yes I am biased.

[Phoinix]

Any information on Switzerland 635's that were grounded lately?

[Phoinix]

Can someone tell me where to find information on "VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT" displayed after shutdown on CAD's lower edge.

[Phoinix]

I cought something while doing type rating, that TOT is still high after shutdown so you are more careful during next start. The message normaly goes away until the next startup, but I want to know what exactly it is.

[MightyGem]

Can someone tell me where to find information on "VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT" displayed after shutdown on CAD's lower edge.

Yep, we get it after every flight, and ignore it. I think it's because the generator out goes out of limits for a few seconds during the start(but I could be wrong!).

[handysnaks]

MG, I think the warning may be down to an MMI issue as the nr slows down rather than a genny.

[eagle 86]

Engine T's & Pressures. Note the red lines.
GAGS
E86

[zorab64]

Phoinix - suggest you put VEMDs into maintenance mode and scroll around for the failure code. We get it regularly and, like MightyGem, give it a good ignoring.

When we first got the aircraft, we looked into every similar issue until we realised that they were invariably code 103 or similar, all occurring at 00:00secs - i.e. probably some small electrical hiccup with no likelyhood of it having occurred in flight or anything to do with handling errors.

Unfortunately, our experience has led us to follow the ignoring procedure above and ECD/TM (don't know whether it happens with P&W) have not addressed what appears to be a CAD/VEMD/FADEC electrical sensitivity issue to remove these "cry wolf" CAD warnings - one day it might be important/relevant, but we're unlikely to find it until the engineers download FADEC data. Only time we check it out is when we feel we might have mis-handled, which is hardly ever, of course!! :ok:

[Phoinix]

Eddie, i understand your concern, but... Can you help me find a standard procedure for this indication? I might be blind for not finding it in flm or training manual.

[victor papa]

Eddie1, my understanding is that the engine manufacturer will not be concerned as the VEH parameter indicate that it is caused by the airframe and not engine. If it is not electrical system related check the pitot static lines and temp probes. Had it a few times that it is caused by the VEMD not thinking that the PO and outside T can be for the same place and then records it as a VEH parameter out of range.

[FloaterNorthWest]

We have a similar problem in the A109 Grand where the aircraft throws up MAINTENANCE on start due to an electrical disturbance during the normal start procedure.

In the age of software driven aircraft surely these glitches can be written out?

[skadi]

@eddie1
If the warning illuminates at start up because of to high amp loads from the Generator is one thing. This indication goes off after startup.



But thats a different message : GEN PARAM OVERLIMIT

skadi

[eagle 86]

At the risk of repeating myself - check my previous post (581) - on shutdown the engine and transmission oil pressures drop to zero - the VEMD detects this and sends the message - it is logical and normal - note the red lines under the pressure strips! Please don't ignore something you don't understand particularly in a helicopter as complex as the EC135!
GAGS
E86

[Phoinix]

Well, finnaly I got an explanation from Ec guys. VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT is suppose to be a message warning the crew, that one of the parameters has been in the caution area - in our case MM was in yellow at one time not exceeding 7,5'' (manitenance acknowledged) - and so you don't have the safety factor of reaching that level of exceedence once again without manitenance action taken - expensive.

Funny that EC manuals don't say much about it.

[skadi]

So in this case, there should have been an postflight entry in the maintenance page, section overlimits ( VEMD ) for this Flight-Nr.?

Nice to get this info finally

skadi

[Phoinix]

Yes, the entry was done some time ago, but went past me.

[skadi]

I went a little bit deeper into the maintenance staff. If VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT shows up in the flight report after shut down, you should switch the CPDS into maintenance mode, select FAILURES and then the approbiate FlightNr ( normaly the last one ) with the +/- Buttons. Push ENTER and you get numbers of failures for the CAD and the VEMD. Select the one with at least 1 failure, press ENTER and you get the Failure Diagnosis. The first line shows the time of the occurence and below the respective failure code. There are some more than 100 different codes in the technical manuals ( SDS System Description Section 31-65-00-9 ).
One common failurecode is 109R, which indicates a failed selftest of the MMI, but if the MMI is indicating normal, this failure could be ignored. Its caused by the selftests ( During startup of the CPDS ) of the two VEMD Lines and when the analysis of Line 1 finishes earlier than the analysis of Line 2, the VEMD deactivates the results of line 2 and the errorcode 109R may be stored in the system.

skadi

[RotorDompteur]

Can someone tell me where to find information on "VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT" displayed after shutdown on CAD's lower edge.

A number of different explanations has already been offered, but I think you really have to distinguish between the various messages.

When the "VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT" is displayed on the top VEMD screen it is due to the fact that the Flight Report occupies the lower VEMD screen.

Think about it;
The situation is right after engine shut down.
Right before the Flight Report appears you have engine oil pressure low and red underlines flashing on the lower VEMD screen.
When the Flight Report appears on the lower screen this information cannot be shown anywhere.
So what the "VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT" is telling you is that some parameters are presently out of limit , that is engine and MGB oil pressure low.
The idea of the system is that you should always get an indication that there is something wrong.

The same would happen if you are shown the System Status page while having low oil pressure.

In fact, try this; next time when you are done with the Flight Report press Reset to remove it. Then press Scroll to see the System status and "VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT" will pop up again.



If you on the other hand are shown “OVER LIMIT DETECTED” or “FAILURE DETECTED” it is another story and you should consult the maintenance page for details.


RD

[skadi]

When the "VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT" is displayed on the top VEMD screen it is due to the fact that the Flight Report occupies the lower VEMD screen.



RD, thats it. Thank you.
I just switched the battery on and switched off the lower screen.
VEH PARAM OVERLIMIT went on!

skadi

[helipeek]

I need to do a comp wash on an EC135 P2+. But can't seem to get hold of the procedure from anyone.

Can anyone out there help please?

Either point me in the right direction or tell me what the procs. are.

many thanks

helipeek:confused: (Vainly pushing buttons hoping the bonging noise will stop!!)

[Marco]

Get in touch with your engine manufacturer, Pratt & Whitney presumably?

[What Limits]

Or ECUK if that is where you are.

[RVDT]

As it is a maintenance procedure, i.e it is in the maintenance manual, you may want to contact your maintainer!

PWC 71-00-00 POWER PLANT - CLEANING

ECD 71-65-00 7-1 Cleaning Engine Compressor

Depending on the aircraft it may involve removal and blanking of the bleed air lines. Some A/C have optional quick disconnect bleed lines. Reason being that you do not want compressor wash goop in the BA heater and subsequently in the cabin.

Read up on PWC's policy with the difference between desalination rinse and performance recovery wash. They recommend a recovery wash only if it needs it as determined by power check / trend.

[ZEEBEE]

Can anyone tell me where the fuel tanks are located in an EC135.

it looks as if they're under the floor as in a Huey, but maybe someone can correct me.

[What Limits]

Under the floor is absolutely correct.

[ZEEBEE]

Thanks What Limits.

Any idea of how far they extend ?

We're trying to mount a spectrometer on the floor (approx 1 meter X 80cms) in the cabin, but looking through fuel will interfere with the operation of the instrument.

Do you have any references to documents that show the location of the tanks ?

[Ian Corrigible]

The two-piece bladder tank sits between frames 3 & 5. Frame 3 is about 1.5 ft behind the forward landing gear fitting, with frame 5 located at the rear landing gear fitting.

I/C

[RVDT]

The two-piece bladder tank sits between frames 3 & 5. Frame 3 is about 1.5 ft behind the forward landing gear fitting, with frame 5 located at the rear landing gear fitting.

And then you have the 2 SUPPLY tanks after that which extend pretty much to the rear of the boot floor.

RFM Section 7 Manufacturers Data.

If your spectro is upset by the fuel system you probably won't be putting it inside a 135.

[ZEEBEE]

Thanks to all.

Doesn't having the fuel spread over such a large area play merry hell with the CG as it burns off. ?

[eivissa]

Maybe this helps you to understand how it works:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/1775/135tank01.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3640/135tank02.jpg

[ZEEBEE]

Thanks Eivissa A picture is worth a thousand words !

(It took words to say that though):}

[Coconutty]

What about mounting the spectrometer below the fuel tank ?

I'm thinking along the lines of the "Mission Pod" as fitted to Police aircraft,
designed and fitted by McAlpines ( Now ECUK ) at Oxford -
they might be able to come up with a variation of this that might do the job,
although you may also need to factor in the cost of converting to High skids ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/MissionPod.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Phoinix]

I saw the latest revision to the FLM (6.3) and I got to new Supplement 9.2-86 Night vision imaging systems / NVG.

Effectivity: observe FMA 11-24 with annex.

What is FMA 11-24 and where can I read it?

[ILblog]

Hi

If a company wanting to do a charter flights around Europe want to buy EC135 VIP should we buy the with PW or Arrius?

Any ideas how not to make bad decision?

[Phoinix]

Depends on the colour of your tail. P&W will smoke it up real nice very soon.

[Coconutty]

P&W - Very reliable, and comparatively economical, but also :

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Sooty.jpg


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Brilliant Stuff]

Some people use Airglaze to make it easier to keep the tail clean.

Turbomeccas respond faster compared to the P&W I am told.

I am also told the P&W are less fussy.

I think it's customer service what has people jumping ship to P&W.

[zorab64]

TM engines start faster & more traditionally (TOT up to 750 ish), P&W take ages before the TOT starts to register and you wonder if they've actually lit up, as it's so benign - but they all get there in the end.

As has been said, TMs much cleaner than the P&Ws.

The biggest difference (certainly with TM's power by the hour (PBH) or P&W's equivalent Eagle programme) is that you own your P&Ws. It means that when one is removed for unexpected maintenance, you'll get a loaner, which you're then obliged to swap back for your "own" engine when they've fixed the problem, almost as soon as you've got it back, or you'll pay. TM will just replace your engine (the old one goes back into the pool when it's fixed) - so one change rather than two. For some, this may be good news (as you know how you've looked after your own engines), for others it could be more annoying - certainly if they're fitted in a 902! (yes, I know we're looking at a 135!)

P&W require a daily rinse, TMs every 20 hours, unless when operating in saline environment (recently re-defined), when it's daily. You can do a hot or cold rinse with TMs, cold only for P&W.

On a daily basis, it's a lot easier to put oil in the TM, as you can do it standing on the skid - you need to be more of an acrobat to get it into the P&W, as you're almost hanging off the blades!

We've had TMs for 6 years, 6500 hrs - fantasically reliable, start together straight away every time (with 40 AH battery). PBH, admitedly, but never had a spares problem and only shut one down once, in that time (oil loss due to bearing seal failure). Don't notice any difference in power available betwen the two.

If it were my choice, I'd go for TMs again as they're so much cleaner; start faster & more obviously; & are easier to top-up oil. Pilot's viewpoint, mind, not engineers - they might see it differently?! :ok:

EDIT to explain Coconutty's humour: if you're not familiar with British children's shows in Prague, take a look at The Sooty Show | The Official Sooty Website | Home of Sooty, Sweep and Soo! (http://www.thesootyshow.com/) ;)

[Phoinix]

A question for all gurus out there:

H-V charts in the FLM are for Single Engine Failure, so OEI flight regime, right?
Certain emergency procedures, like T/R failure bring us to a point where we need to (in some situations) roll both twist grips off and perform autorotation.

OK, we got that covered in the FLM also (autorotation). But, OGE hover T/R failure or IGE for that matter: how do we know at what height can we roll off the throttle, gain speed and land.

Do these maneuvers have to be proven for certification? If so, why there is no normal (all engine fail) H-V chart?

[Shawn Coyle]

There is no dual engine HV chart in any twin engine helicopter I'm aware of. The reason is that the engines have enough isolation that no single failure should be able to take both engines out at the same time.
And if there was a dual engine HV chart, you wouldn't want to know how large it would be...
A benefit of having two engines.

[ILblog]

And if there was a dual engine HV chart, you wouldn't want to know how large it would be...

Well I think that if both engine fail on EC135, the will autorotate as any other helicopter with similar rotor and weight. So I think the HV chart would be similar to any other heli.

Just my opinion of helicopter newbie.

[Phoinix]

ILblog, its not that simple as I'm sure you'll soon learn. Autorotational capabilities depend on rotor (disc loading, rotor inertia, rotor solidity,...), weight and some other fuselage-rotor interactions and mostly all types of helicopters have different autorotational capabilities, that also vary with atmospheric conditions.

[ec135driver]

Why would you want to do that?

With a FADEC that has frozen at (say) 20% just open the throttle when more power is needed (coming to a hover?)

You would not want to overtorque/temp one engine when the other has a perfectly serviceable manual throttle reversion that will allow you to fly (carefully) almost any profile

[Ox cidental]

You should theoretically be able to trash the engine with excessive fuel if operated manually, since there is no supervision of the engine limits.

With full FADEC fail of one engine, you will also lose the TQ and TOT figures (its a function of where the data routes through the FADEC black boxes, whereas the N1 is direct from the motor) and also the FLI needle since it has lost 2 of 3 inputs. You can only match engines by N1 figures. This is quite fiddly, especially with stiff twist grips. An easy procedure starts with noting your take off TQ and N1 figures.

With a FADEC freeze at 20-25% TQ leave it alone as you should have sufficient power for climb, and be able to descend.

On finals, as power demand builds up thru 7.5 FLI on the good engine, set manual engine to the hover N1 figure and leave alone. This will give you both engines for hover landing. Lowering the collective, wind off power to avoid Nr rise. :)

Hope this helps.......from an EC135/145 beefer.

[TeeS]

Hi Eddie1

To answer your question (based on my understanding of the system so could well be wrong!) yep if you keep raising the lever the good engine will continue to provide more power right up to 128% TQ (and beyond if you droop the Nr below 95%)

Whilst we aim to keep both engines below 75% TQ (on a T2) as we come to the hover, FLI 10 is actually a gearbox rather than an engine limitation so the good engine is not exceeding its limitations by going into the 2.5 minute power band. That is not to say that you won't reduce the life of that engine by using more than FLI 10, that would be up to your engineers and the TM manuals. However a mis-handling of the manual throttle leading to an overspeed or overtemp may well write the engine off!

Ox, I also find it helpful to raise the lever while in stable flight to get an FLI reading of just under 10 on the good engine. If you then note the N1 of the good engine that will give you a maximum N1 figure to open the manual throttle up to for landing.

Hope that helps.

TeeS

[Phoinix]

Just a note, based on my last IFR training flight (where my instructor failed to activate train mode and turned one engine to IDLE).

The engine has a 2.5 minute limitation and based on what we got back from eurocopter, transmission has only 2 minute limitation (not noted in any book to my surprise).
Our flight on one engine lasted for 1' 52'' so we avoided the 2' limitation by just a fraction. The engine was limited by the amount of TQ and time. 2,5' being absolute top, but at a TQ value we were at ~112% (dont hold me on that one, takem from what i remember) ment that we just made it with a 1' 52'' so the engine didn't come off. The transmission has a notice for this event, as if one XMSN chip light comes on, the transmission is of to germany.

[echelipilot]

Hi eddie,

"If you have one engine freeze at 20% Torque can I pull the 128% with the other engine? Will the FADEC of the good engine approve the 128% if the failed engine is officially only "freeze" not "eng fail". What is max. possible TRQ?"

As long as you have frozen the "ill" engine below 30 % Torque you will have the OEI-Power on the "healthy"engine. But as others already stated, why not set the Torque of the frozen engine manually as much as you need it?

Best regards
Tom

[skadi]

@echelipilot
so if one engine produces less than 30%TQ, the Fadec assumes OEI-Limits for the other one?
From where did you get this information? I`ve found nothing in the approbiate manuals...

skadi

[echelipilot]

Hi Skadi,
"@echelipilot
so if one engine produces less than 30%TQ, the Fadec assumes OEI-Limits for the other one?
From where did you get this information? I`ve found nothing in the approbiate manuals...
skadi"

I´ll check the books when back on duty next week.
regards
Tom

[zorab64]

eddie1 - But if you had 1 engine shutdown within 6500hours, how does this go together with the message of Eurocopter "below 1 fail in 100.000hours" for JAA CAT A procedure certification purposes in Europe?
That's one that had to be shut down in 6500hrs flying - so it's actually 13,000 engine hours. There will be plenty of engines that have flown the full 3500 TBO without problem, and so the average that will make up the certification figures.

As to your other question, If you have one engine freeze at 20% Torque can I pull the 128% with the other engine? Will the FADEC of the good engine approve the 128% . . . ? the answer in my boook is No you shouldn't but Yes you can and FADEC will give you as much as you want. Basically, if you have one engine providing power, taking the other into the OEI zone is possible (the only Tq limiting factor is your left hand) but, if you do it, the engineers will be talking to ECD & doing over-torque checks on the transmission. Following the Flight Manual "If flight situation requires max engine power, Tq setting of affected engine may be increased" or similar, should be observed. :ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

If both engines are running, even with one operating at a lower than optimum level or frozen due to FADEC malfunction, you are still in an All Engines Operative condition (they are both still working all be it one in manual) therefore you should observe the AEO limits.

[skadi]

But at which constellation is the system changing from AEO to OEI-Limits respective OVERLIMIT Indication? I think, thats the reason for the original question.
Is it TQ<30% on one engine or 0%TQ, is it related to N1 of the faulty engine?
Its a theoretical question, beside the option of manual override!

skadi

[TeeS]

The good engine doesn't know and doesn't care how much power the other engine is producing. When the other engine Fadec fails, it stops communicating with you and it stops communicating with the good engine. That's why you get a 'DEGRADE' caption on the good engine.

It makes no difference to the good engine whether the failed engine is producing 10%Tq or 100% TQ, it will make a difference to the gearbox though!

TeeS

[zorab64]

skadi - But at which constellation is the system changing from AEO to OEI-Limits respective OVERLIMIT Indication? and your other questions re Tq etc.

There is no changeover to OEI limits, they're on the FLI all the time, it's only the start limits that appear & disappear. The Flight Manual tells you that the 2.5 min countdown timer activates as soon as either engine exceeds OEI MCP - but it still stands that taking one engine over OEI MCP, whilst the other is producing power, will result in a XMSN over-torque.:=

[skadi]

In AEO you get the red LIMIT light with gong at 75% TQ ( T/P2 ) and an steady engine exceedance for >80%/10sec. If you are OEI , you can pull more ( 86/125/128% ) MCP or time limited without the above mentioned light/tone at 75% . Thats what i meant with "change to OEI mode" . So there must be some information going to the FLI to decide whether ist OEI or AEO?

skadi

[WOMBAT45]

Guys this is not torque related. The system senses an engine fail (and displays ENG FAIL on the CAD) when it senses less than 50% N1. When this occurs it changes to the OEI limits. That said the engine is still running but only just.

Try winding off the twist grip next time you shutdown (make sure you go the correct way) you will see it happen before your very eyes.

A lot happens at or less than 50% N1. ENG FAIL caution, start cycle terminates and Fire bottle discharges if EMER OFF Sw pressed.

[skadi]

But if you put one Eng in Idle ( >50% N1 ! ), you can still pull 86% MCP on the other one without red LIMIT . Thats what we did for OEI training before the "training mode".

skadi

[TeeS]

Quite true Skadi, however if you are still talking about post Fadec failure, selecting idle will do nothing because the switch just tells the Fadec to put the engine to idle. Sadly the Fadec is not listening to the switch at this point because it has failed/frozen.

Cheers

TeeS

[RVDT]

A lot happens at or less than 50% N1. ENG FAIL caution, start cycle terminates and Fire bottle discharges if EMER OFF Sw pressed.
and you have a FIRE indication.

Otherwise all the EMER OFF does is close the fuel valve.

[Phoinix]

There is no dual engine HV chart in any twin engine helicopter I'm aware of. The reason is that the engines have enough isolation that no single failure should be able to take both engines out at the same time.
And if there was a dual engine HV chart, you wouldn't want to know how large it would be...
A benefit of having two engines.

Thank you Shawn. For some strange reason I found your post today.

If I understand correctly, than there is no safe procedure for a T/R failure in a hover, lets say under 500ft AGL? I remember a japanese 135 video crashing while at slow speed, low height maintenance flight.

I'm asking about this because my colegues retured from 135 sim with an idea about this. After fenestron failed in a hover 1500ft AGL they tried gaining airspeed while spinning and 1500ft wasn't enough height-red screen. Than they encountered the same situation, stopped spinning by rolling off the twist grips, entering autorotation, gaining airspeed and while at more than 65kts, roll back on the twist grips and you have T/R fail during cruise flight scenario - more survivable. They lost about 1000ft height during that maneuver.

[echelipilot]

@echelipilot
so if one engine produces less than 30%TQ, the Fadec assumes OEI-Limits for the other one?
From where did you get this information? I`ve found nothing in the approbiate manuals...

skadi



Hi skadi,
basically the information is from several training flights with our TRI´s. It seems that there is no written information, for example in the FADEC-system-description which says “If TQ is 27 % you have OEI Power on the good engine”. The only written evidence I could find is a NOTE in the “FADEC Fail” emergency procedure (EC 135 P2, page 3-22).
“If the flight situation requires maximum engine power, …….tq-setting may be increased. ….Do not exceed the N1/TQ value of the normal engine and the AEO limits.”
Cheers
Tom

[Phoinix]

Hmm, that's valuable information that should be entered in the FLM. Some facts about the EC135 are just not stressed enough in the FLM.


There is one more thing about these "windows" helicopters that I don't understand. A few cautions on the CAD have the importance level at which the manual says "don't start the engines, don't fly..." if one of these appears. One example is "check CAD for no INP FAIL or CAD/VEMD FAN..." that may be listed on the second page of CAD and not straight forward visible to the pilot. Why isn't the system capable of filtering those out and write accross the whole CAD screen "DON'T START, press F1 for more details". It's a straight forward caution or warning using plain logic.

[ILblog]

Hi

We are just purchasing EC135P2i, completelly new, with 2year warranty.

Should we opt for Parts By Hour program or not? The heli will be operated up to 150hrs a year, with best care, flown by owner only.

[REGLER]

The conventional wisdom is that these OEM supplied contracts achieve most for their clients when they fly more than 400 or so hours per year, but that 'wisdom' hides a truck-load of questions which might lead to a YES or No answer for you.

The significant issue concerns the perception of PBH/SBH contracts and what it is thought they deliver and what they really do deliver. This can only be determined by carefully reading the contracts and seeing whether the contract guarantees parts availability (with compensation etc) or simply parts 'when ever possible'... or 'when available'. The two approached are significant when you are clutching the contract in-hand and drumming your fingers on a desk waiting for a part you thought would arrive v quickly and for which you now wait with a grumpy owner asking why he signed some contract.

If the owner signs the contract, what does he expect.....? A guarantee that his helicopter will be 's' whenever he needs it.....? If that really is his motivation, get the contract read very carefully before recommending it or signing it...

Warranties on helicopters are, at their best, pretty awful bundles of documents. The airframe is covered by one, the avionics by another, the engines another and so on. The admin of all of this when flying loads of hours can be a task in its own right.

The 'gotcha' clause tends to be - if you have a snag on your helicopter, you have to diagnose the problem (at your own expense), and with a telephone line open at the OEM factory, remove the part and (all at your expense) ship the part to a factory gate - which might not be where you collected the bright new machine from. Then, at the OEM's discretion, you sit and wait (with a part absent from your helicopter) while the OEM considers what it will do. Only then will a decision emerge and a part may come back to you finally shipped at the OEM's expense. You may still get a bill for pro-rata use of the part you sent back.... and the new part's own warranty might still only last until the anniversary of the original new aircraft warranty!

The answer to your question is found, as the phrase, goes buried in the details of not one contract but the several you will need to cover the EC135's total system - engines, airframe, avionics, and customisation. The same applies to warranties where the cover may vary from avionics to engines.

I wish I could say YES... go for it at 150 hours per year or NO... don't... but there are simply too many factors involved and I've only mentioned two.

A gut feeling suggests that you might simply get the owner to pay the full PBH/SBH rate for engines, airframe, avionics etc. into his own helicopter account as hours accrue to fund the necessary spare parts and associated costs, but make sure the owner understands that there are no guarantees that the part will be with you when you need it.

PS.... PBH and SBH contracts tend to have lists of the parts they cover... unless you feel rich and go tip-to-tail.

[helipeek]

Can anyone tell me when the 135 was fitted with CDPS as standard (from which ship number)? And have any of the earlier machine been fitted with it?

Bit of a long shot, but any info would be greatly rec'd.

Helipeek

[RVDT]

# 172 and on at least.

With the proviso that there are aircraft earlier than that which are fitted with it.
Hence the aircraft are referred to as EC135CDS and EC135CPDS respectively.

For a period there were a mixture of the two and some aircraft have been retrofitted by the factory.

The only real way is to ask as the info is specific to each serial number.

[helipeek]

Many thanks for the info. Should help with the search.

Helipeek:ok:

[zorab64]

ILblog - you are probably aware, but just in case you're not, you're really dealing with two contracts; PBH for the engines & SBH for the avionics etc.

P&W call their PBH "Eagle service program", and it operates a little differently to the Turbomeca PBH contract. You "own" your P&W engines, so that if one goes away for attention, you get a loaned spare until yours comes back, whereupon you have to change engines again. With TM you just get a replacement engine & therefore one engine change. Advantages & disadvatages of both schemes - just a different way of doing it. (In a 135, an engine change is a fairly quick job - not so for the same engines in a 902, or much else! :\)

SBH can be designed for each customer with as many, or as few, items on the list as you're willing to pay for. Obvioulsy, if a black box fails, it'll often be expensive to replace without SBH, and probably an un-planned cost too. On the other hand, if you're only flying 150 hours a year, the cost of SBH is unlikely to be so great, especially for the re-assurance of relatively quick parts supply under a SBH contract and the knowledge that you won't have an un-expected bill for that box!

A lot of high hour (1000-1500) public service operations in UK have PBH and SBH contracts for two reasons:
1. They can budget more accurately for the hours they're planning to fly.
2. If their aircraft needs a (PBH/SBH) part, they'll be supplied as top priority & will be operational again as soon as possible.
Some units put the equivalent money aside instead - if they're lucky, they'll save plenty of it; a run of bad luck might have them more out of pocket.

At the end of the day, it's an insurance policy to provide (some) peace of mind, which costs, of course - as with most insurance policies, the financial winner is more often the service provider!! :ok:

Re CDS/CPDS - I know of one operator who investigated retro-fitting CPDS into their older CDS T1 and the sums made no sense whatsoever.:= Buying a CPDS replacement will have worked out a lot better value in the long term.

[helmet fire]

Hi guys,
Just comparing our current 109E with the P2i in discussions the other day. Questions we couldn't really get to the bottom of in regards to the p2i:

What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at SL and 40degrees C?
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at 3000ft and 30 degrees?

What is a realistic CAT A weight (clear heliport) at SL and 30degrees?

What is a realistic fuel flow and cruise speed in HEMS equipped aircraft (with winch, but no wire strike or nightsun/FLIR at 2900kg)? We understand 120kias and 175kg/h is Vlrc, but some operators say they cruise around at 130 to 135 kias burning 200 kg/h

Does this vary for dash speeds by much?

Is the total fuel capacity of the P2i 560kg or 535kg?

Thanks all. I would be happy to add the 109E figures if there is any interest.

[Airglaze 1]

Hello Skadi,

I have just read your article, and I can assure you that the product that you have on your helicopter is not what it claims to be, our coating is approved by Eurocopter and after checking back our records it would appear that your helicopters has never been worked on by my company.

[skadi]

Airglaze-Aviation
Hello Skadi,

I have just read your article, and I can assure you that the product that you have on your helicopter is not what it claims to be, our coating is approved by Eurocopter and after checking back our records it would appear that your helicopters has never been worked on by my company.

Which article????
I never posted an article about the use of airglaze...

skadi

[helmet fire]

Hi guys, I previously asked this on the 135 thread with no response. Wondering if a kind pruner might help fill in some answers?

Just comparing our current 109E with the P2i in discussions the other day. Questions we couldn't really get to the bottom of in regards to the p2i:

What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at SL and 40degrees C?
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at 3000ft and 30 degrees?

What is a realistic CAT A weight (clear heliport) at SL and 30degrees?

What is a realistic fuel flow and cruise speed in HEMS equipped aircraft (with winch, but no wire strike or nightsun/FLIR at 2900kg)? We understand 120kias and 175kg/h is Vlrc, but some operators say they cruise around at 130 to 135 kias burning 200 kg/h

Does this vary for dash speeds by much?

Is the total fuel capacity of the P2i 560kg or 535kg?

Thanks,
hf

[RVDT]

Realistic means BOW?

What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at SL and 40degrees C?

GROSS MASS LIMIT

What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at 3000ft and 30 degrees?

~2870 KG

What is a realistic CAT A weight (clear heliport) at SL and 30degrees?

GROSS MASS LIMIT


What is a realistic fuel flow and cruise speed <SNIP>but some operators say they cruise around at 130 to 135 kias burning 200 kg/h

CLEAN - MTOW 1000' 30C 1013 hpa 135 KCAS = 218 KGH (TAS would be ~ 140 KNOTS (Unapproved data of course ;))

Working backwards from 200 kg/hr would give you 130 KCAS or 135 TAS

Is the total fuel capacity of the P2i 560kg or 535kg?

560.4 KG

Can't help with the other numbers as I don't have the performance penalty data from the RFM Supplements. Winch will have an effect on certain things.

I have done a little bit in each model ~ 300 hours.

They are not really comparable aircraft each is just good at what it does and conversely. Due to "legacy" issues the 135 will not get any bigger/better performance wise. Can you winch a patient "into" a 109? Noise? T/R versus Fenestron. etc. etc. blah blah.

[[email protected]]

Has anyone got a color image of the EC135 caution advisory panel. I cannot find any info on the colour illumination anywhere in the rfm or tm for the panel. Eg is Active red, amber or some other colour. I can guess some like FIRE but would like to get them all right :uhoh:

For the caution warnings and messages generated for different failures, I presume that they are colour coded as well, so if there is any info on that, it would also be appreciated. If I've missed something in the tm or rfm my humble apologies, but I'm just using the info for a project and the manual copies I have may not be complete. I also realise that there are many variants between the Pratt and TEC versions so I'll take whatever anyone has.

Tia

[helmet fire]

Thanks RVDT.
Not familiar with "BOW" but what I am after is actual operating observations, not just RFM outputs. I realy appreciate your feedback, I guess there are few EC135 pilots out there in Prune land.

Were these figures from the RFM, or are they what you would see during your time on them?

[nodrama]

I'm more familiar with CPDS, as opposed to CDS but.....

If it's on the warning panel, it's RED.

If it's on the cautionary display (CAD) it's mainly AMBER. The exceptions to this are advisories such as bleed air and landing light being on, which are GREEN.

The LIMIT warning on the FLI is RED.

Messages at the bottom of the FLI are AMBER, but a self test INP Failure is WHITE.

If an FLI engine parameter (Tq, TOT, N1) moves into a limit, the value stays WHITE, but will be underlined with an AMBER or RED line.

To answer your question about the fire extinguisher system ACTIVE caption....it's WHITE.

[RVDT]

BOW = Basic Operating Weight

-is the basic weight of the aircraft when ready for operation, including crew but excluding any payload or usable fuel.

What do you mean by "realistic"? The RFM data is factual certified proven data.

Be wary of "additional performance data" which is not approved and clearly says so.

If the aircraft won't achieve the performance in the RFM there is something wrong with it. And I am certain that any customer that found that it didn't would certainly be making a case with the manufacturer and the authorities very smartly.

The 135 I fly "does what it says on the tin."

[[email protected]]

:ok:

thanks for info nodrama. much appreciated.

[ILblog]

Hi. I have just started to fly ec135p2+. When I wanted to plug in my Bose Aviation headset I have relized, that some strange type of connector is used in this helicopter. It is connector with several small pins, similar to Lemo Bose standard, but placed in a different way. Does anyone know what is a name of this connector. Is there any conversion from this connector to Lemo connector?

[[email protected]]

Nodrama

If you don't mind - go here RotorInfo Home (http://joom15.rotorinfo.com) and select Rotorask from the menu and then EC135.

This idea comes from another thread where an app called Isafety from Eurosafety was thrown out. They are basically demo-ing a cap panel iphone app for a 350B2. The demo app allows you to select a CAP caution/advisory warning button and display the appropriate actions. A user called Gordy suggested there are more Droid users than Iphone users, which makes it difficult to develop an all encompassing native app (or less straight forward).

I personally believe that web apps are the way to go, and negate all the different screen size/phone issues. I thew up the attached test site since the post and looked at it on a Blackberry, Droid and Iphone ( as well as native browsers like Safari and IE). I would like to address standard CAP and more modern EFIS type displays, providing the same training functionality.

I'm working on a different project, but this caught my attention and I am looking at throwing it in to my general development site RotorInfo Home (http://www.rotorinfo.com) for rotor types. I've generated a lot of screens for different types, but have not yet added all the actions.

The example for EC135 only has an active action for the FIRE CAD and Hyd for AS350BA but if you take a look at the EC135 to see if this looks kind of right and might be useful, I'd appreciate it. Just select an aircraft type and click on the button for actions. Any other comments welcome.

[nodrama]

All the amber captions on the warning panel need to be red (except EMER OFF SW, which isn't a caption but just a light to indicate when the fuel shutoff valves are closed...the lettering will be white when lit, same as ACTIVE)

Your notes might be for a different configuration and possibly FAA spec, as the layout of the warnings are slightly different than what I am used to seeing. e.g you show individual AP1 & AP2 failure captions, I'm used to seeing just an AP A.TRIM failure caption.
Also, haven't seen stby horzn caption on the warning panel. I would have thought this would be cautionary (an amber CAD caption), that is unless it was, up to the time of failure, the only AH still working!

[[email protected]]

Thanks NoDrama.

I checked the RFM for the T1/T2 P1/P2 CDS and CPDS (various revisions) and they all indicated what i had, but I did think it strange that the standby horizon would be on a warning panel ??. I agree with you.

I checked what i had for the TM and it is just as you say with no AP1/ AP2 and a AP A. TRIM in place of of the stand by Horizon. I've taken note of the Active and Emer Sw lighting also.

thanks for your help.:ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

ILblog, More than likely to be ANR connectors that are fitted. These can be replaced with standard NATO, they should be just a push/pull fitting into the roof.

[ILblog]

Hi

I have just started to fly EC135. As a computer hacker I am unable to accept the fact, tahat I have one wonderfull display in front of me, and this device is good just for IFR flying. It is fine to have airports, VORs, NDBs there on MFD, but this machine is flying 99% as a VFR.

I started to think, that I would like to hack lower Thales display in EC135 and put there some video input form some good VFR GPS, with terrain, airspaces, obstacles.

If there is anyone, who has desdription of some input connector and signals, I would appreciate any help.

[Brilliant Stuff]

You can have what you are thinking of as a factory option. It's just here in the UK we are no allowed to use it.

[Ian Corrigible]

http://techdigest.tv/asus-eee-pc-warranty.jpg
..........
I/C

[unstable load]

+1 I/C
Add to that the reaming you will get from your authorities and insurers and lawyers if you ever have an incident/accident and that bit of extra tampering comes to light.
If you don't like the display then find a type with a likeable display, IMO.

[krypton_john]

Hmm, why invalidate the insurance, warranty and certificate on a $2million ship when you can just install a $10k MFD?

[Shawn Coyle]

ILblog:
While on the surface, this may appear as a reasonable idea- it's not. The underlying software is not like Windows or Mac OS, the certification implications are unbelievable and you'd better be familiar with DO-178.

[malabo]

Why don't you just do what everyone else does and bolt a Garmin 696 on the dash? Dart Helicopter Services has approved mounts for a lot of helicopters.

Like Shawn says, it is all tied up in tech standards and approvals, so don't expect anything panel-mounted to change soon, or inexpensively. Even the IFR argument for idiot instrumentation is weak, with far better means of presenting information and improving safety with new displays (look at the SV stuff on the new S76D panel). Patience, it will come.

Don't most EC135's come with the big Garmin 530 GPS units anyway? That should give you everything you need - maybe not quite as good as a 696, but pretty close.

Have you checked out the iPad panel in the iCub (http://icub.aero/)?

[krypton_john]

Yikes! They really *are* using the iPad accelerometers for the EFIS attitude display?

[VFRIFR]

Could anybody let me know the cost of the EC135 Factory Gnd school & flight training? I need this info as I need to settle part of my training bond when I leave my present company?:*

[GoodGrief]

A new machine comes with two pilot type ratings.
If you walk in the door it should be around 28000 Eurones.

[VFRIFR]

Thanks GoodGrief, but isn't that a hefty sum for such a small machine? Does anybody disagree with the sum?

[Bravo73]

...but isn't that a hefty sum for such a small machine? ...

Not if Eurocopter are setting the prices... :eek:

[eivissa]

From second hand knowledge Ive also heard a price just below 30k€ :ugh:

[VFRIFR]

You've said it guys.:ugh::sad::*:(:confused::ugh::ugh::uhoh::ouch::mad:

[Ian Corrigible]

If your training bond small print allows the training to be done in the States, you could save 40%. The local factory EC135/EC145, B429 and AW109 transition courses are all IRO US$25-30K.

I/C

[aegir]

what about write directly to Eurocopter Germany training accademy and ask them?
Reference - Eurocopter, an EADS company (http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/ref/Training-Academy-Donauworth_1070.html)

[Avbuff]

I have found the problem lies with the vent above the #2 Master Box. In forward flight the vent extracts air from the area, however in hover this does not occur. Because of rotor direction air and debris / water is blown up the vent. I found # Box with grass and sand inside it. Take the side panel off where the removeable circuit cards are and the top two cards will be contaminated. Fix for land operations is to fix a screen at the top of the vent (inside) plus if desired fix a screen above the vent holes on the Electrical Master Box. Water ops.... Haven't had to address that.
Hope this helps

[RVDT]

Avbuff,

This is an ongoing issue with the 135 that is yet to be recognised / accepted / adressed fully by ECD.

There is a GSE cover for this vent available now to stop the weather from going in one side and out the other when parked and for aircraft washing.

This (http://www.eurocopterusa.com/images/support/TechBriefings2010/EC135-tech-briefing-Heli-Expo-4-12-2010.pdf) is a good source of info.

There was a recent Customer Conference in Europe and a briefing of that is available electronically. Get your friendly Tech Rep to supply you with one.

[Brilliant Stuff]

I was told that the cover inside the engine bay on the floor of the engine bay in the top third of said engine which has a very big electrical cord going into the area of the pelican bay is the where water ingressed hence now there is lots of silicon going around it in order to stop that.

The water was able to run along the cable through to the inside and then to the box but with a pressure washer the plate itself wasn't standing up to it.

Than again who uses a pressure washer on a £4.000.000 aircraft, I wouldn't use it on my £1.000 car.

[RVDT]

Brilliant Stuff,

That was more than likely just a "story" to keep people happy and divert attention from the real issue.

[zorab64]

This vent, on both sides, is "7" shaped, if that makes any sense, where the long leg of the 7 is roughly vertical (leading up from the master box space) and the short leg (to the exit vent) points slightly down and towards the rear of the aircraft. Thus, when in forward flight, air from the master box area is indeed extracted. If you're washing the aircraft, squirting a hose (or even jet-wash) at that area from anything aft of the vent is plain foolish.

Having flown many hours in the high hover in pi**ing rain, it's not a problem, as you'd need some very interesting airflows to get any water into the vent.
ECD put out some advice (3-4 years ago?) to cover the vent when washing the aircraft. Actually, so long as you ensure any water that goes near the vent is only directed from the front, or above, and along/down the aircraft skin - (i.e. as rain would go when on the ground, or in flight) you shouldn't have any problems, vent covered or not. That's from approx weekly washing experience of 5 years + on an aircraft flying 1000+ hrs per year.:ok:

The other area to watch out for is the air ducts under the chin - squirting water in there may affect the air blower, as it's mounted with the electrical bits under the motor. The result is that any water sitting static in the motor fan area may seep its way into the electrics & the fan eventually stops playing. Fit the suppplied blanks while washing & you'll be OK. :D

[Earl of Rochester]

UB0AlcniJek

Wot .. no FADEC? (Poor battery) :E

0iluGpnpG_Y&feature=related

Wot .. no headsets? (Wot next)

[iorgasilviubogdan]

I'm quite sure that the last movie is shot in a simulator

[elro]

Its a sim, the cockpit would be alot brighter if it was real and they would both be wearing headsets. Great view aswell which would be difficult to achieve if it were the real thing.

[skadi]

Looks like the CAE-Sim of German Army in Bückeburg.

skadi

[MightyGem]

And with the needles on the FLI moving around, it doesn't look like an auto.

[yencopter]

Last year City Air Services started a shuttle from the Mori Building in downtown Tokyo to Tokyo Internation Airport.

The transfer take approx. 15 minutes and costs about Y50,000.

The helicopter used is the Hermes version of the EC135.

http://weekenderjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Heli3.jpg

EC135 Hermes approaches the MORI Building in downtown Tokyo

http://weekenderjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Heli1.jpg

EC135 Hermes landing on MORI Building roof pad

http://www.luxuo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/japan_hermes_helicopter-468x311.jpg (http://www.luxuo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/japan_hermes_helicopter.jpg)

The 'helicopter hostesses' of City Air Services

http://www.luxuo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/japan-hermes-helicopter-468x313.jpg (http://www.luxuo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/japan-hermes-helicopter.jpg)

'Helicopter Hostess' to assist with passenger embarkation and taking fare from passengers

http://weekenderjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Heli2.jpg

Passenger compartment of EC135 Hermes

http://www.luxuo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/view-tokyo-helicopter-468x315.jpg (http://www.luxuo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/view-tokyo-helicopter.jpg)

View over downtown Tokyo on route to airport

http://www.mutantfrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/tom_cruise_valkyrie_helicopter.jpg

TC landed on MORI building during the promotion of his 'Valkyrie' film

[Phoinix]

What's with the latest FLM/PCL revisions?

"Ground IDLE (within ~45 sec) - Check N2 ~74%"

Rough estimate or a startup limitation? Normal startup takes 42-43 seconds every time and if it takes 46''?... shut it down, enter the discrepancy in helicopters log book?

When is the startup completed? At 50%, when the engine is autonomus and starter becomes generator, or at stabilised RPM (~74% N2)?



Looking at EC's FLM after each revision more and more useless and mindboggling stuff is entering the pages with no logic support. Like the change in the preflight (cabin roof instead of cabin top). More and more idotic revision pages that come in great numbers changing nothing. Don't get me started on Supplement revisions. Whole supplement changed once because of a picture being lowered two text rows.

Is PCL an official checklist from eurocopter or just a help for crews; being revised long after the FLM changes?


The latest ENG switch guard is a joke, isn't it? You almost have to reposition the ENG switch back to flight to remove the guard for shut down. I was told that the modification is to prevent unintentional shutwodn of the good, healthy (only) engine. I mean, If I previously removed one IDLE guard to shut it down, if it's in my mind I will remove the second, third and tenth guard and shut it down.

I don't see anything like that happening to agusta (109). It seems that they have to change the helicopter for every accident it happens, instead of making it better, they are making it worse IMHO.
The one thing that EC never thought of is maybe a light at the end of ENG swtich that would glow bright red if engine is at idle or off and green for flight. They never thought one would be flying it at night and you can't see the damn switches without a light.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Ah, but Phoinix, knowing Eurocrapter cockpit design philosophy you'd find that in order to operate these switch-lights in the dark, you'd first have to turn your head 90 degrees and look up at the rear of the cockpit roof to pick one of 3 identically designed busbar switches, move a guard and then operate it, then automatically cancel some new alert that it will have brought up on your advisory panel (with associated audio 'bong', identical to that for all other occurrences...)

I really do wonder if the engineers who build EC135 cockpits for the convenience of other engineers ever consider inviting a pilot into the design process. Someone who's heard of coriolis disorientation, perhaps...

Yes, I KNOW the 135 is the light utility heli of the future, but PLEASE could someone who's seen an MD902 cockpit advise Donauworth on how best to put together a future T3/P3?

[Phoinix]

Right, and the new EC blooper... this one is getting it's imprint down the idiot lane.

Check engine warning light being introduced on newest ships some weeks ago is to be disconected by an ASB effective before next flight. Right... :) Nice job...

:ugh:

I guess no pilots are present at the desk when these dumb decisions are made. I imagine two lawyers and a couple of christmas tree engeneers making making the call. Maybe a new SB is coming out for holidays so that the cockpit lights flicker on weinacht baum tune. At operators expenses i'm sure.

[Rigidhead]

Phoinix,

Would these consultants be the pilots that managed to take off with one engine in idle?
Or the ones that tried to take off with the cyclic locked?
I agree that perhaps it would be best to not try to engineer solutions to
all people issues.
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek)

Rigidhead

[What Limits]

Yes, I KNOW the 135 is the light utility heli of the future, but PLEASE could someone who's seen an MD902 cockpit advise Donauworth on how best to put together a future T3/P3

I actually did this whilst sat down with the Chief Design Engineer of the EC135 some time ago. His look said it all - I had two heads or something like that.

[Phoinix]

They will have to figure out a better system than they have at the moment. One day they install CHECK ENG warning light that proved to be confusing during training mode. Dooooh, every idea they have is only 10% thought out.

It seems every incident and accident that happens influences a huge change that is not thought of thorough enough (or not at all) and causes even more confusion.

I'm sure if I fall of a helicopter during preflight and tell that to EC we will have a retrofit carabiner mounted in the next SB.

[emsmech]

Two engines vs one engine, large cabin vs no cabin, more capabilities vs limited capabilities, seems like a pretty easy choice EC135

[Thud_and_Blunder]

emsmech,

I'm not quite sure from your post - what comparison are you making?

[DavidD135]

I am writing a EC-135 study guide. I am looking for the answers to the following questions:
1. Main rotor hub hinge offset Value
2. Normal landing attitude
3. In a hover, pitch attitude that will result in the helicopter accelerating
4. Normal hover attitude
Thanks.

[nodrama]

Main rotor hub hinge offset Value

It's a hingeless rotor hub...can you elaborate?

[RotaryWingB2]

1. See nodramas post above.
2. Skids first.
3. Anything above 0 degrees.
4. Rotordisk on top.

[nodrama]

:E I was thinking it!

[RotaryWingB2]

Somebodies lost/never had a sense humour.:}

[Brilliant Stuff]

2. On high skidded aircraft rear left skids touches first.

Don't know about low skidded one's since I wasn't allowed to land those.

[skadi]

With low skids the same :p

skadi

[DavidD135]

I know the EC-135 has a hingeless rotor head where there is no mechanical hinge to speak of. However, there is a area or spot somewhere along the span of the EC-135 main rotor blade where the flapping motion occurs. It could be called the flapping point.

On the Dauphin's hingleless rotor head the main rotor hinge offset value is 6%.

On Bell two bladed main rotor head the main rotor hinge offset value is 0%.

The larger the main rotor hinge offset value the move maneuverable the
helicopter.

The Dauphin's normal hover attitude is 4 degrees pitch up and 3 degrees right wing down. This hover attitude does not change unless the helicopter is load outside its CG limits.

With the helicopter load within its CG limits, I just want to know what the EC-135 normal hover attiude is.

Thanks

[Phoinix]

I'll try to get that data today for you.

[eurocopter beans]

What do you use as your standard hover height when taxying etc, i have heard various figures (skid to ground)? 2feet? 3 feet? 4 feet? 7 feet? etc etc

One train of thought is to keep it close to the ground (2-3ft) so that in the event of an engine failure or TR drive failure you have got less of a drop, the downside of this is that if the aircraft is mishandled you increase the chance of a tail-strike or skid strike?

Any opinions??

[Phoinix]

We had two bumpers damaged already and no engine / tail rotor / drive shaft failure. I would say we normally taxi at around 10ft.

[Phoinix]

DavidD135, hover attitude for our 135P2+ is 7° nose up, CG within limits.

[ILblog]

Hi

In summer I plan to fly with EC135 to Norway. Since the trip requires some small sea crossing and there is a lot of Fjords in Norway, my question is about floats. I am pretty sure, that any chopper goes under water like rock, and spinning rotor can kill anyone who tries to escape.

During my type rating, my instructor enjoyed shutting down one engine almost constatnlly, so I know thay EC135 is able to reach shore with OEI under any situation. Do I really need the floats for my trip or not? which other survivable emergencies I can have, where floats can help?

[Hyds Out]

Besides a double engine or tail rotor failure, you need to look at how short your sea crossings are. Don't forget that a minor issue over land of Fuel Transfer Pump failures can make you sweat over the sea if more than ~20mins from land (if fuel in the main tank isn't high enough to slosh over in the supply part).
At least with floats it does give you an option, albeit not the best one.

But, if it is a private flight, the choice is yours.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Fuel transfer pump failure worst case scenario would be you can't get the last 60kg if you go faster than 80kts with the forward pump failed but if you slow down to below 80kts then it's only 4kg. If the rearward one fails and you go faster than 80kts minimum unusable fuel will be 7.5kg.

I hope that helps.

If it was me flying private and I know the machine I would be happy to go without floats.

I personally think woodland would be more dangerous compared to water, and they don't do floats for woods.

[ILblog]

Hi

Several months ago I have started to have problems with fuel QTY meter in main on my 2008 EC135P2+. The symptoms was FULE QTY DEGR message, and faulty indication in main tank. Talked to maintanence, they suggested water in fuel so I have drained tank, refueled and added a little bit of Priest in order to get rid of water. When ever I put some priest I went to fly to consume the prist with fuel. It helped.

When the chopper went to 100hrs inspection I suggested to check fuel QTY meters in main tank, and WHAT A SH.....T!!!!!!

The main tank in the rear area is completelly unbonded and separated. Sending photo. Eurocopter suggest to get new main tank, and since chopper is still under warranty, my main concern is what is the cause of the problem and who will pay for it.

Have you ever seen something like this. The helicopter was a long time in Malaysia on the ground, waiting for customer. Do you thing that some kind of bacteria can cause this? Do you thing Priest can destroy the tank in such a way? Except for Priest I am not aware of any other additives in fuel. And I have personally refuelled only in HEMS heliports, and good airports in Czech Republic a Switzerland, where good quality of fuel can be expected.

http://files.tocna.webnode.cz/200000085-4e89a4f82d/DSC07259.JPG

[Brilliant Stuff]

I see in last Month's MORs that G-SPHU had a birdstrike which entered cabin through the chin canopy.

Anyone know more and maybe even has some gory pictures?

[Rigidhead]

ILblog,

I have seen Prist eat fuel tanks before if the concentration was too high. On
different aircraft types with bladder style tanks.
(I mean way too high. I can't bring to mind the proper ratio but I want to say
something very low like .16% is good and the one case was caused by a bad
injector on a fuel truck which left globs of Prist in the tank.)

As a side note, are you not draining your sumps before the first flight of the day in order to eliminate any water from condensation etc?
I would like to put that question to the general populace on here as well. Over
the years, the number of people I have met who cannot be bothered boggles
the mind.(That does not include operations in sub-zero temperatures for those who were going to bring it up.)

Rigidhead

[blakmax]

IL Blog

From the photograph, there appears to be weak fillet bond failure where the core disbonds from the adhesive fillets. The adhesive fillets are formed during the initial bonding process, and they are essential for the strength of the bond. There is a conference paper on this:

Davis, M.J., Chester, R.J., Perl, D.R., Pomerleau, E., Vallerand, M., Honeycomb Bond and Core Durability Issues; Experiences within CREDP Nations, Aging Aircraft Conference, Williamsberg, VA, Aug 31-Sep 02 1998.

If you google that, there is a copy on my web site.

Essentially, the core simply separates from the adhesive layer leaving very little damage to the core or the adhesive layer. Typically once the core to adhesive bond is degraded, the flat-wise tensile strength (the strength of the core out-of-plane) falls to about 10% of original manufacture. This has been the cause of a significant number of rudder faiiures on one type of military aircraft. It is caused by water entering into the honeycomb panel itself, not just into the fuel tank, but actually penetrating the space between the inner and outer skins of the panel. This can only occur if there is a defect (such as a disbond of an edge member or a panel penetration which may have been repaired) which must occur first to enable the water to enter the core.

This type of failure should not occur if the water can be kept out of the core, so it is important to find where the water is getting in, not just to repair the part.

Regards

Blakmax

[Brilliant Stuff]

When you select Instrument lighting the VEMD dimms a bit but not great lot which means you manually have to dimm it further.

How come when you enter the Maintenance pages it dimms out right proper?:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[RVDT]

Brilliant Stuff,

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

How come when you want scroll through the flight reports and other data pages you press - to advance the number and + to go back?

Transverse lobotomy = FR?

Try turning both VEMD lanes off and watch the resultant analog data in the CAD. Ng or TOT whether TM or PW. Sometimes does some weird things!

[polikou]

Re: need for floats, an engine fire that wont go out is an immediate landing.

[Thomas coupling]

It's not just that (mechanical - fire/hydraulic/mgb etc) if I were you, I would check with my insurance company also! If you do stoof overwater without floats (even though you don't legally need them) the insurance company might seriously reduce the pay out because you haven't taken appropriate steps to protect the aircraft.

[Phoinix]

I'm refreshing EC knowledge and I can't find an answer to my question:

Herr Balick (the one just under the god of EC135) :) was my instructor for ground school and I made a note on Mast Moment Indication System:

"Caution range 50-66% yellow - NO TIME LIMIT"

Why did I wrote that as we can clearly find the accumulated time for both yellow and red MM range on VEMD?

I checked what I could find in the maintenance manual - found nothing except how to take it apart - so, does yellow "caution" range represent maintenance action after certain accumulated time or not?

Nothing in the FLM supplement also... except for the red markings - entry in logbook + maintenance action.

[WOMBAT45]

As I understand it the system records (and retains) events of greater than 66% and then greater than 78%. It retains the % figure and duration for the life of the aircraft, both by flight number and total time in the >66% and >78% areas.

As I interpret the book the 50-66% area is purely a caution area and no maintenance action is required.

[Phoinix]

You are right, i didn't bother to look at the numbers on vemd... Caution area has no time limit (50-66% MM).

Thank you.

[Pilot10000]

Given "up to 59.5 kg" unusable if the forward transfer pump fails...

How about "no fail indication" (i.e. caution) of a forward transfer pump? No light? What's the possibility of this occurring?

Our EC 135 'seems' to transfer fuel normally until about 27 gallons. At that point, the supply tanks start depleting. I am told that other tail numbers have this same functionality? However, other ships reportedly use all their MAIN fuel to ZERO. The later seems normal. Correct?

Does your main fuel always go to ZERO - BEFORE the supply tanks begin to be depleted.

However, if during this anomaly (i.e., with supply tanks depleting as the MAIN fuel goes below 27 gallons), the forward, then aft transfer caution lights illuminate, would this not suggest that the forward and aft transfer pumps are functioning properly - but the MAIN FUEL indication is OUT OF CALIBRATION?

Thanks for your expertise.

[Brilliant Stuff]

On ours the forward fuel pump caption comes on anywhere between 100kg - 150kg if we are steady in the hover.

As for the supply tanks running down this can happen when the main tank is showing 20-40kg.

The way I understand it the forward fuel pump feeds No1 Supply and the Rearward feeds No.2 Supply. Which would make sense with what you have been noticing.

Clear as mud?

[handysnaks]

Brilliant Stuff, I believe that both transfer pumps feed both supply tanks!

[SilsoeSid]

IIRC,

Both transfer pumps are connected to a common transfer pipe that transfers fuel from the main tank to both supply tanks equally. If one pump should fail, or is switched off when for example the caption comes on, the remaining transfer pump will still supply fuel to the transfer pipe and in turn to both supply tanks.

One transfer pump can supply fuel at a rate that means that the supply tanks will not run dry before the main.

Or something like that !

[Brilliant Stuff]

HS & SS,

Thanks for the refresher, I had a look now and it confirms what you said.

[SilsoeSid]

No worries B.Stuff,

I wouldn't get too hung up about the quantities when the cautions come on, we landed yesterday with 15 kg in the main with no cautions throughout. Normally at those levels I'd expect the fwd to come on when on approach/taxi. I guess the combination of wind, ac attitude and CoG position meant both pumps still pumping throughout. Both supply tanks still full.

Isn't it funny that when that balance ball spirit level thingy and nice little amber triangle on the PFD point to the right, the right hand supply tank reads a bit low, regardless of main contents ;)

[RVDT]

the right hand supply tank reads a bit low

Which it always will because it's a smaller tank?

[Phoinix]

I think (acc. to my experience) SS is trying to say it indicates less than full although it is full (main tank not empty).

[SilsoeSid]

I think SS was trying to highlight, yet failing dramatically, that he might not always be flying in perfect balance :rolleyes:

[Brilliant Stuff]

SS
your quite right the cautions come on at random since the pumps IIRC need two minutes of running dry before they cautions come on usually by then we changed attitude again and the pumps got a suck of fuel again restarting the clock again if you know what I mean.

Cracking helicopter though.

[SilsoeSid]

Heard about it, talked about the rumour, but never experienced it, until that is this morning.
Trying to balance the blaring radios, one by one as the calls came in, and my metal watch strap must have rested on the end of the collective...ZZapp!! :eek:

A cracking shock that certainly alerts the senses during the umpteenth orbit round a dimly lit church in the middle of nowhere in the dark.

Anyone else admitting having had the collective shock, or will you just snigger at the thought of me bolting upright going..."What the flip!" :\

[TeeS]

Hi Pilot 10000

We regularly land with 80-90kg of fuel remaining and often see the following sequence:

In the cruise, fuel decreases till the aft pump is uncovered, followed by aft fuel pump light a little later. Reach up, switch off aft fuel pump.

Approaching final, gentle decelerative attitude to reduce speed. Front pump becomes uncovered. No warning light because of the inbuilt delay but fuel now not being transferred.

Supply tank contents drop, followed by FUEL caution and then finally the fwd pump caution illuminates.

That may offer an explanation for what you see.

Cheers

TeeS

[Aerobot]

Does not the fuel xfer pump switch itself off after running dry for three minutes? Or am I misremembering...maybe the Caution light means it already has been dry for three minutes? Can't look it up here.

[skadi]

No, the Caution just indicates, that the pump is running dry for a certain time and has to be switched off.
In the early times of the 135 there was no such time delay. the Caution came up as soon as the pump went dry. Very disturbing when doing checkrides or other flight with many attitudechanges and the fuel comes well below 100kg.....

skadi

[RVDT]

Sid,

Go ask you engineer how the TXPDR goes into STBY or other bits and bobs that require Squat or WOW switching.

Normal.

[SilsoeSid]

Thanks RVDT, fully aware of the technical side, which you may have been able to pick up in my post, ("my metal watch strap must have rested on the end of the collective...")
:rolleyes:

Fyi, our system is setup for a 5 second switchover from ALT-GND mode.


All I wondered was whether or not anyone else was prepared to admit to being zapped.
:eek:

[TeeS]

Hi SS

I've never even heard of this before, let alone had it happen. I've discussed it with our engineering department and they suggested a smaller watch :)

Cheers

TeeS

[Fortyodd2]

Never been zapped but I have noticed the odd spark during the Check A. On Police machines, it is also the switch that allows the crew to eject a video tape from the Britannia Recorders when the aircraft is on the ground.

[handysnaks]

If you'd stop wearing all that polyester and nylon.........;)

[SilsoeSid]

I've never even heard of this before, let alone had it happen.

I did use one of those military type wrist straps when I first heard about this, then I came round to the 'what's the chance of that happening' stage. :ouch:

Depending on fit/setup, next time you land, pause with the collective fully down and note transponder and/or TCAS indications. They probably still say ALT and Normal/UNR/ABV/LW depending on type. Without doing anything, those indications will remain. Now lock the collective and within around 5 secs the indications will change to GND, STBY and/or something else.

You can sit for hours without making the contact waiting for the status to change, just incase you think its some other system at play.

Watch straps, contacting the locking nipple at the top of the collective and earthing through the body, as I said, certainly wakes you up after the umpteenth orbit of a dimly lit church in the middle of nowhere at sparrows fart!

[SilsoeSid]

Just tried to video the spark (so much for the need for sparkproof torches etc) but it doesn't show up too well, despite being able to see it with the mark 1 quite nicely.

However I did discover something not normally noticed, in that when you connect/disconnect the nipple/locking device there is some 'wiggly amp clicky business' going on around the base of the collective area. (awaiting correct technical terminology) :8

[Brilliant Stuff]

SS
I have never suffered from the spark but ours is a T2 from 2001 isn't yours a P2+ or am I mistaken, I think over the life of the 135 production there are three systems employed to tell the boxes when the aircraft is on the ground.

[SilsoeSid]

Keep your watch, wear gloves :ugh:

Does that mean we should wear our watches on top of our gloves/flying suits?
We could pretend to be astronauts or deep sea divers ;)

If you release the pitch then you can feel the voltage by your arm: just fly a little while and then there is enough power between the "black" parts and the silver shining PIN.

If the pin is insulated, then there shouldn't be any other circuitry going on...should there?

[SilsoeSid]

fully aware of the technical side, which you may have been able to pick up in my post,

And enough of the head-banging !

[helisdw]

SS,

Why not combine your glove and watch...?

http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz92/helisdw/watch_glove.png

Simon

[SilsoeSid]

White gloves !!!!!

[Brilliant Stuff]

Glad to hear I am not the only one re: White Gloves.

[helisdw]

SS + BS,

Apologies for the sartorial faux pas.

The suggestion was merely in response to the concern about having to adopt a watch-over-glove solution and not an endorsement of any particular colour!

Simon