EC135

[tecpilot]

Eurocopter delivers 400th EC135 - the first offshore examples operated in Mexico

"EUROCOPTER proudly announces delivery of the first Eurocopter EC135 helicopters, offshore version. Delivered to Transportes Aéreos Pegaso, the new EC135’s will form part of an existing fleet of 11 EUROCOPTER helicopters (1 x Ecureuil AS 350, 6 x BK 117, 3 x BO 105, 1 x EC 145) used to provide services to Petróleos Mexicanos.

Transportes Aéreos Pegaso is an Offshore operations leader with over 20 years of experience in the Gulf of Mexico, more than 100,000 flight hours and over 1,000,000 passengers transported. Based at Ciudad del Carmen, they helicopter transport passengers and cargo for Petróleos Mexicanos, as well as providing personnel transport and logistical support to the Schlumberger Group in Campeche Sound and other petroleum companies in the Gulf of Mexico. They also offer pipeline and transmission line monitoring and checking services, executive passenger transport and emergency or ambulance transport support. Outside the Gulf of Mexico, Transportes Aéreos Pegaso also offers external cargo transport with hooks in the mines of Chihuahua."

[Blackhawk9]

Heard on the grap vine that the NEW!! QES EC135 while out doing training with a Eurocopter instructor forgot to select training on the eng . ECU's and cooked both engines.
A quick drive to Redcliff airport showed a EC 135 with no blades, head or cowls over the engines sitting outside the hangar !
Poor old QES have had fun with Eurocopter with this helo in the past ,damaged tail boom that EC only wanted to repair, QES insisted on new one and got it, will EC cough up two new engines now?....... they mite but you never win with EC the next time a service is due or parts are reqd the price will go up!!
I've seen it all before in the UK and Norway where new ac were delivered with stuffups from the factory and EC payed up but it cost the operator in the long term , the french always get there money back.

[ATN]

... whereas Sikorsky, Bell and others are charity organisations.

[SMOUFW]

Att. you were close......


Sikorsky,Bell and others actually provide customer support and SERVICE.

SMO

[ATN]

and EC does'nt ? So how come they outsell SK and Bell in the civilian market ? All the customers know s..t about support and services ? Come on.

[SMOUFW]

Who's talking about outselling?? Support and service was my point. Only yesterday I could here the chief engineer on the phone using the words,"' slow, hopeless and useless"'......One guess what he was talking about.....I can't speak for what happens in France, only in Oz and I know of similar experiences here.....it's a pity as the aircraft(when servicable) are A1.

[rjsquirrel]

ATN,
I don't think the Eurocopters outsell the Sikorski's in their size range.
BlackHawks, S-92 and S-76 are matched against the EC 332L2's (and the new EC 225) and the EC 155's and I believe they hold their own in sales.

[jayteeto]

I am a big EC fan as other posts will show, but if you bend it you should mend it or more correctly, replace it. In recent months they have repaired avionics boxes rather than replace and we were paying, not them!! So they don't rip off every time.
Most companies will attempt to get their money back, however they will not punish one operator as suggested. Prices go up across the board and we all pay. This is basic economics that all companies will do (or go bust)

[SMOUFW]

JE, what happened to your comments?? They were valid points......must have that 1200 hrly coming around soon????

[MightyGem]

Any body know how putting the aircraft into “training mode” protects the engines during training???
And how did they manage to cook both engines by NOT having it in Training?

[helmet fire]

Wow JE, you have me worried about big brother now. Or is that les bro de grande?

Every one has a good yarn about a snafu, no matter what the manufacturer. What is interesting here is who will come to the party given it was a factory pilot doing factory stuff on the QES machine. We all make mistakes, but the question here is who's insurance coughs?

[belly tank]

QUOTE
"What is interesting here is who will come to the party given it was a factory pilot doing factory stuff on the QES machine"

Depends whos endorsed or imdemnified on the insurance policy! as to whom is responsible...if EC still has an insurance policy notation on the insurance then it will be an excess problem....so then who pays the excess!!!

in any case im sure there will be some serious folding matter that is parted with! :{

[rotorpol]

HAMMER
HEADED

Quote:
"Any body know how putting the aircraft into “training mode” protects the engines during training???"


The training mode of the EC 135, permits the pilot training one engine inoperative situations, having both running normally.

So as train. mode is turned on, we can switch one engine off, the software installed shows in the FLI page of the Central Panel Display System, an OEI situation, and allows the crew to experience how the aircraft power changes with one engine on, but the trick is , that this only affects the indication.So both engines keep functioning normally, and deliver exactly the power you can read on the FLI page, while it appears you just have one engine on , actually both are sharing the efford.
Example: entering the 2min. band in OEI situation, and pulling 120% torque (training mode on), each engine delivers 60%, so training is posible without exceeding engine limits.

[Head Turner]

It would appear that Eurocopter offer the aux tank as an option which is fine except that there is no way of installing it as no STC is in force. Strange situation from such a refined company. Or am I wrong?

[Droopy]

What Rotorpol has described is the Turbomeca [T2] version, so the Pratts may well be controlled differently.

[dombev]

Maybe your little bird was not in the cabin at this time.............?

[Vfrpilotpb]

This may be slightly off the direction of this thread, But with all the elctronic equipment now fitted to the police Heli's that give the ability to send realtime pictures to a base station, why is there still any need to have a third person on board, when in fact most of that sort of obs work could be carried out remotely from the ground.

That would give more ability to carry more fuel to stay aloft longer.

Vfr

[TeeS]

Carefull VFR, that's only a step away from suggesting ROV's!!! I still have 12 years to retirement!

TeeS;)

[Thud_and_Blunder]

VfrPete,

The 3rd pair of eyes is essential during high workload police ops such as pursuits. The camera-operating observer is heads-in working the kit, the pilot is monitoring the task but (quite rightly) making flying the aircraft his/her priority, so you need the 3rd person to maintain overwatch/ run air-ground comms. The folk on the ground watching the downlinked pics can ONLY see what the heads-in observer lets them see; there's always a lot more going on than fits into the picture frame. Although you could possibly operate the camera remotely from the ground, visual cueing would be woefully slower and less effective than having a human (or police - nearly the same (sorry Volrider/HnH - cheap dig)) expert operator on board.

EC135 generally,

Our T1s (with sand-filter, aircon, 2B1 donks and permanently-unserviceable-for-over-9-months autopilot fitted) have ZFW of 1912kg. Cat A ops? forget 'em! C of G? We have to make sure that our 2 pilots who are over 100kg never fly together! I have once seen the aircraft loaded with 360kg in the main tank, for a task which involved a quick nip up to the Northern border and back. My congratulations to the Eurocopter sales team; the aircraft is certainly not what I'd have recommended for the job here!

[rotorpol]

quote:

"What Rotorpol has described is the Turbomeca [T2] version, so the Pratts may well be controlled differently."

DROOPY:
Training mode concept is equal for P2 and T2.
The basic stuff in this mode of two models is "the same".
Operation of the training mode is equal in both models.

the only variants are some words the software uses to indicate states of the system and the training torque limitation which works pretty different in T2 and P2 when ther is a Nr droop.

HAMMERHEADED

Data presentation is highly similar in P2 and T2.Major differences come with caution lights, training mode vocabulary and some other things.:ok:

[Head Turner]

I note your gripe about the autopilot. In general I have found the EC autopilots less reliable than Bell/Agusta.
Why dont you send it away for repair? And in the meantime have one on loan!

[Marco]

We operate a EC135T2 police role equipped. Basic weight is 1817 kgs plus role equipment brings the APS to 2040 kgs.

The T2 has VTOL (Helipad) up to +36C (0' PA) at mauw. The Clear Helport at mauw up to +46C (0' PA).

We generally operate at 380 kgs giving us 1h 45m but the max (assuming average weights) is 470 kgs giving 2h 5m.

ECD have developing plans to increase to mauw of the T2 to approx 2900 kgs. All that will be required in modification is a software update to the FLI (torquemeter) with a slightly different oil in the MGB.

[Rotormec]

Our SPIFR EMS EC135 has an empty weight of 1882kgs.(max gross weight 2835kgs) It would have a useful load of 953kgs.
If we subtract 134kgs EMS equipment from the useful load, it would leave about 1087kgs useable.

If you wish to fly with 2 pilots and 4 passengers, figured at 200 lbs each, that's roughly 540kgs. So subtracting 540 from 1087 leaves about 547kgs left.

Since you are flying offshore, floats would have to be added which I am estimating at around 100kgs. That leaves about 447kgs for fuel. The fuel system holds 448kgs in the mains and an additional 92kgs in the supply tanks for a total fuel weight of 540kgs with full fuel.

So as you can see, that extra pilot is holding you back. With a full IFR package coupled to an autopilot system is the extra pilot neccessary?

Since a dual pilot IFR ship would probably weight more than the example I am using, and interior requirements such as seats, passenger baggage,etc would also have to be added, I would recommend you look long and hard at whether or not it would meet your requirements.

An EC135 is a great ship, but it has it's limits.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Regrettably for us all the stats prove that two pilots are safer than one - even if he has all the toys to make the workload more manageable. Hence the oil companies (outside the GoM and some other dodgy areas) like to see a two-pilot operation wherever possible. Still - the upside is more jobs for the boys!

[CyclicRick]

Just passed my 135 T2 check today, nice bit of kit isn't it!
:ok:

[Spunk]

Congratulations CyclicRick,

heart you moved back home, wish you all the best.

Frank

[CyclicRick]

Hi Frank, yes I did but I still have to get the LBA to do my license endorsement! I thought I'd got rid of them :(

Rick

[MightyGem]

Yes, it is nice isn't it. Who are you flying for Rick?

[Hilico]

Chaps, can I butt in here with a massive thread diversion? It's thinking about the 135 that prompted it.

Suppose one were to come into money (in this instance, win the lottery twice in successive weeks, with rollovers), give John Osmond a ring (is he still MacAlpines Sales Manager?) and pick up a shiny new 135. Suppose further one lived in say Harwich (on the East coast of England) and fancied a day job at the Helicopter Museum in Weston Super Mare - about 200 miles away.

Is there any advantage to flying the route in airways at FL100-120, assuming pilot as well as machine were SP/IFR? I mean, is there a reduction in fuel consumption? Is it balanced out by a reduction in performance? Is the money saved in a Skywatch set then used up in an oxygen set? Does anyone actually use a helicopter this way?

I thank you for your answers, if any.

[Thomas coupling]

Hilico:

Why are you flying a helo, the FW way? What is the point of spending 4 million + when you can buy a secondhand piper commanche for £300,000 which will do what you want to do in twice the time and at half the cost???

Our dear friend Johnny Osman has departed McA for pastures greener. He is now an independent consultant, which is another way of saying he's in between jobs.

He will be sorely missed..................

[MightyGem]

But in answer to your question. Yes there is a saving in fuel of between 5 and 25kgs per hour, depending on which graph you use. But as you're a multi millionaire, it's probably not worth worrying about. :D

[John Eacott]

I often used to ferry a 109AII Melbourne - Gold Coast, usually up at FLnosebleed (well, 9-10,000ft: our flight levels don't kick in until above 10k), and the fuel burn would be reduced by 10+%. The cost saving wasn't the point, but the increased endurance was, for IFR flight planning. There are surprisingly few JetA1 stops available in the 800nm trip ;)

Performance was fine, TAS a couple of knots better than 3000ft for the same power setting, but it varied with DA and temp, of course. The S76 would always give better performance at higher levels, with a better fuel burn. Stronger winds at higher altitudes can often provide a better GS, too (or headwind, in which case stay down a bit).

Mind you, Hilico, 200 miles is just a short drive up the road, isn't it? :p

[FloaterNorthWest]

Mighty Gem,

I think you will find it the same company as you. Look slightly right out of your office window and on a good day you may see his base.

Rick is the new Chief Pilot.

FNW.

[MightyGem]

Hmmm...none of my(and yours) company up north from here???

[FloaterNorthWest]

More North West and across the water.

FNW.

[Hilico]

Thanks for the answers chaps! It is a much better idea to fly fixed wing, right up until I want to leave from my garden, or land at the Helicopter Museum. And 200 miles might be nothing where you come from John, but...I still think it's a fair way to travel and then go to work.

And in case anyone's going to dun me for money, I have none and IT WAS A HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION.

[MightyGem]

Ahhh...a very good day with a bit more elevation, I think.

[CyclicRick]

Hilico: You did take the thread off on a bit of a tangent!

FloaterNorthWest: Can't keep any secrets can I? Should have known better. Anyway, cabs here now and looking very nice thank you. A little better than the little green and grey ones across the pan :)

Rick:ok:

[Floppy Link]

New cab, same old area of operations...:uhoh:

[Aesir]

Anyone out there that has the manufacturer´s direct operating cost figures for the EC135?
´
I haven´t had any luck finding the info on the manufacturer´s website!

[Thomas coupling]

Adjust this for inflation:

estimates are based on existing UK operations using a new EC 135 ‘new generation’ helicopter and have been
checked against the Fall 2002 Conklin & de Decker Aircraft Cost Evaluator (Fall 2002) model used by Booz Allen
Hamilton for Total Direct Costs per Flight Hour for the following aircraft: EC 135 T1 (US$538), A109 Power
(US$577), MD 902 Explorer (US$587), AS 365N2 - Dauphin (US$873) and EC 145 - (US$684) – the latter two
aircraft, whilst not uncommon in HEMS operations, are significantly larger than most aircraft used for HEMS work.
It would be reasonable to expect that competitive tendering, inter alia, would result in lower costs. For example, one
significant operator consulted suggested that a flying charge of €500+ per hour would be a reasonable expectation for a
new generation twin-engine helicopter, for example, an EC 135.

[Aesir]

Thank´s Thomas, that´s just what I needed :ok:

[MightyGem]

...having problems with electrical master boxes. We've just had our 5th or 6th failure this year. Always the number 2. Just wondered if anyone else is having the same problem.:(

[TeeS]

Not in the Midlands to the best of my knowledge. As a matter of interest, do you operate with a GPU?

TeeS

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

It is strongly recommended to plug in the helicopter battery PRIOR to connecting a GPU.

The battery will act as a buffer against spikes.

[212man]

What GCN says tallies with the 155, which I guess uses similar architecture. We had EMB problems initially, and this seemed to more or less stop once we adopted this logic.

[Head Turner]

This is interesting as the FLM, Section 4, Normal Procedures, does not give any information on connecting/disconnecting a GPU. Section 3 Limitations gives no clue to what the minimum voltage should be for starting. The Pilot's Check List does not make any reference to the procedure to be adopted either.

The procedure we adopt is to connect the GPU then switch the Battery ON. After start of both engines the GPU is disconnected.

[ec135driver]

Just had the No2 box go (tuesday a.m), it was an internal start though:confused:

[Thomas coupling]

DB check out the national air support forum.

But the latest ECD newsletter tells us to switch the BMS on first then the ext pwr.

IF as was mentioned before, there is nothing previous to this to warn of the correct batting order - there may be a case for clawing back the costs of an electrics box. Latest price for one:
70,000 euros :\

[MightyGem]

No, we don't use ground power for starts. Interesting about switching the battery on first, before connectin GP. That info hasn't reached us yet. Our last two replacement boxes have been free of charge.

Oddly enough, it's now working with "no fault found". If we fly tonight, I'm not laying any odds on it lasting the night.

[Thomas coupling]

Having not experienced one (yet) what are the symptoms when it fails?

[MightyGem]

One or two BUSTIE OPEN captions. Having shut down, the associated engine won't turn over, various red lights when pressing the test button on the EMB. Oh yes, and we've found the info re battery on first.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

At least three master boxes, that I know of, on our 2 EC135T1s in 18 months. Symptoms as described above, although we have a separate continuing saga concerning a possible short with the cockpit vent fan. We also connect GPU after BATT ON, although we also found that taking the engines to FLIGHT, switching the BATT MASTER 'off' and then switching 'on' vent, sandfilters and aircon also helped avoid the spike which trips the busties.

Head Turner, interesting that you say there's no mention of minimum voltage for starting. I'm not at work right now, but one of our engineers said the same thing. I showed him the relevant section in the FLM stating min voltage = 24.0, but cannot give you chapter and verse 'til I have the book in front of me.

National Air Support Forum? You are joking, aren't you? I applied through our company head of training way back last year - they never had the courtesy to reply. Shame really - we do virtually nothing but training on these cabs, so we learn a great deal about the aircraft every day. So do Eurocopter - these airframes operate in difficult conditions for helis, and the 135 has its faults like any other design. It'd be a pleasure to share the knowledge - and to learn what people who do a real job get up to - but we can't do any more than ask, can we?

[MightyGem]

a possible short with the cockpit vent fan.
Yes, we've been down that road, but still getting the problem.

[Head Turner]

Thud and Blunder, I would appreciate knowing where this gem of info is hidden within the FLM. I was told during training that 24V was the limit, but I want to find it in the FLM.

[Head Turner]

With reference to the minimum voltage...it is referred to on page N-15 of the Pilots Checklist and on page 4-10 of FLM....just for the record. But can't find any info regarding use of GPU.

[Droopy]

ECD Service alert 2004-09-22 which contains Thales service letter 4502/3-300/350-24-003. If you're registered for TIPI do a search on "master" and it's the first return :)

[Head Turner]

When flying AEO (both engines) the TOT limitation for Max Continuous is 879C (Arrius 2B2), however in OEI conditions the TOT Max Continuous is 942C.
Why is there a difference in the TOT limit?

[NickLappos]

Head,

Few limits are set at the level where the item blows up if exceeded by 1 degree or 1 percent. Most limits are based on the assumed number of times they are reached, and the number of hours they are flown. That way, a continuous limit for dual engine is lower than the continuous limit for single engine, since dual engine limits are met exch day, but a real engine failure only occurs rarely, so that higher OEI limit is only actually experienced a few times in the engine's life.

The concept of how limits are set, tested and flown is one of the deep mysteries that needs better explanation, by far. In effect, the user (you) the manufacturer (me) and the regulators (the FAA/JAA) are all in a mutual dance, where the limits define the capabilities of the system as tested to the capabilities as approved. Along with this certification system is a means to assure the aircraft is used in agreement with the tested values (limits marking and training and interlocks) and inspected to assure continued safety (HUMS, data recorders and maintenance manual inspections.) The object of this dance is predictable safe operation.

Want to be confused? One type engine can have 4 different sets of limits, and therefore four different dash numbers, even though the parts are all identical. Each new dash number engine can have different power and different overhaul times. It is possible that the same engine can have different power in different countries (due to different ways to interpret the test data.)

Life was simpler when the rules were simple, but those simple rules were never more accurate, frankly.

[407 too]

Nick, do overhaul times follow the different sets of limits ??

eg. country 'a' has a higher limit for eng temp than country 'b'

does country 'a' have a shorter time to overhaul ??


if so, is it a question of trade-offs for TTO vs max temp ??

[CyclicRick]

Is this just a T1 problem or T2 aswell?

[MightyGem]

Is this just a T1 problem or T2 aswell
Only had the problem since we went T2. No idea if it's linked.

[NickLappos]

407,
Exactly, the different power/temp ratings carry different lives, with the higher power leading to shorter lives, generally, but not always.

The method of calculating the life is an art, and each agency has a spin on that art. For example, if the exact same engine is tested to US Navy requirements it will have a given power for its overhaul life. If it is tested to FAA/JAA requirements it will have almost 10% more power for the same life. Why? Because the test sequence for the Navy has many more presumed cycles at high power than does the FAA sequence so the Navy engine has to go to its high power often enough to require that power to be less than the FAA will allow, if full life is to be achieved. We call the sequence the "spectrum" and it is the biggest driver for the determination of power and life.

The funny thing is that we now have the tools to measure exactly what the engine truly experiences, so we don't have to guess at a "spectrum" any more, we just have to measure the real life experience, and dock the remaining life accordingly - except that regulatory agencies have no idea how to deal with this new technology, so they just ignore it (so far.)

[212man]

Sounds like them thar beans again!

[Thomas coupling]

Cyclicrik: Good Q...I havent heard of a T1 failing?

Must be same electrics box / looming though (in the airframe)?

[What Limits]

We have had both replaced in our T1 in the last 18 months.

[Head Turner]

The 'spectrum' selected therefore requires a great deal of cristal ball gestimations to make assumptions on aspects such as (a) how many times single engine temp limits will be used, (b) how many exceedencies occur when both engines are operating etc.
On the Eurocopter range of twins there is a recording of all flight criterior. Does this not provide the data for lifing the engine components?

[407 too]

sounds like the real life experience of the engine (and probably other parts of the drive train) is a tool the operators could use :8

you want light corporate tranfer - X $/hr, you want hot and heavy slinging - Y $/hr, as the latter eats into your TTO faster

can't really see it happening though :O

[Thomas coupling]

I'll raise it at the User Gp meeting next week.

[What Limits]

So it is accepted that the battery should be physically connected prior to plugging the GPU in, but where does it state that the internal power should be switched on?

[Thomas coupling]

Latest ECD newsletter.

[What Limits]

It says connected but not switched on. Also repeated in the Thales service information letter.

[rotorspeed]

Nick

Presumably airframe manufacturers get data on engine life expectancy from the engine manufacturers, based on empirical research including actual destructive testing, from which the acft manufacturer, along with authorities, establish lifespans based on the relevant spectrum.

Out of academic interest, about how long would an engine statistically last before it would fail at say the 2min 30sec OEI limits? Just interested to know what sort of approx % reserve you guys work to.

What about tranmissions? If there is a 5 minute take off limit of say 100% Tq, what sort of Tq would you expect the MGBX to typically actually catastrophically fail at?

[NickLappos]

Head Turner, 407 and rotorspeed,
You have all shown that you really understand the concept, and all your questions are valid. The problem is that the current regulations that we work to were made before it was realistic to be able to determine the actual usage so they froze the state of the art back in the 1950's. Changing the regs is a massive effort that requires a series of civil servants to stick their necks out and advocate change is a more liberal direction - after all, today's system works, so why risk my career messing with it? Remember, the CAA/FAA/JAA don't spend 5 cents operating anything, right, so there is no advantage to changing anything.

Look for a new presentation on my web site discussing this, maybe today!

[MightyGem]

Nick, do you have the link to your website? The only one I have is the old s92heliport.com one. Thanks.

[Head Turner]

Those having problems with the electrics (EMB)must be mechanically lacking because my question is;- Why would anyone need to start an engine without a battery fitted and connected?
I come to this conclusion from the information given above. Connecting a GPU for power to operate the electrical equipment to lessen the drain on the battery during ground training is understandable, but using a GPU for a start without a fitted battery doesn't seem logical to me.

[Thomas coupling]

Head turner:
there is a little lost in the translation between ECD and us ignorant anglofiles!
The battery being physically connected to the electrics system is taken for granted. It is installed and electrically in series with the looming!
Where the confusion came in was whether the alert letter (when it stated battery must be connected) meant the battery must be swithced ON.

I have talked to ECD personally and they say:

Physically plug the external power supply into the a/c first,
THEN switch the BMS on,
THEN switch the ext pwr on.

The battery is there to act as a buffer.

[Head Turner]

Many Thanks TC for the clarity of your information. I have done it as you explained, which is the system in most aircraft.

[Head Turner]

One further point on the 24v issue.

I have seen the voltage drop from 25.4v to 24v during the time it takes to complete the cockpit pre start checks, once the voltage dropped to 20 volts and the GPU was connected, then switched on for the start.

Surely the minumum voltage for starting ought to be stated both in the Limitations section and in the pre start check list prior to putting engine switch to ground idle.

And instructions for disconnecting the GPU.

Failing any instructions we run both engines up to ground idle , with the BMS on. When both engines are stabilised at GI we disconnect the GPU, by switching off the GPU then removing the plug from the a/c.

[TeeS]

Is anybody else confused by the logic of the EC information?

My understanding of the system, suggests that when you plug in the GPU and switch the Battery Master switch on, the battery and generators are isolated from the Primary Bus Bars to prevent any flow of current between Battery and GPU. If this is the case, how does the Battery act as a 'Buffer'.

Eurocopter also recommend that the battery is disconnected when operating with an EPU for an extended period of time.

TeeS:confused:

[Droopy]

TeeS, that's also had me confused. As regards the extended operation, I understand that's for battery carts as opposed to mains supplied units.

[TeeS]

Hi Droopy

The wording in the manuals suggests that it is to prevent the battery running flat since it is still supplying the Battery Master Box and the Essential Bus Bar.

TeeS

[Head Turner]

Has anyone heard when the increase in the AUM for the EEC135 will come into effect and what will be the new weight?

[Helinut]

I understand that it will go to 2,900 kg. No doubt TC will be able to give chapter and verse

[Fortyodd2]

2910 Kgs as I understand it. Due to start appearing around the middle of 2006. It will also come with a change to the "Cat A" system which will make it semi automatic......... and, apparently, it's free of charge to existing T2 owners. :D

[BobbyBolkow]

As an aside. Change to "Cat A" was going to be automatic (allegedly!). Until some bright spark pointed out that if you are flaring a bit heavy and as your airspeed drops below the threshold the Cat A kicks in - you can watch your Nr disappear off the clock! Not a good scenario! So semi-automatic it is.

:ok: Does anybody know how to fly this thing?

[TeeS]

Despite being a committed 135 fan, I could never come to terms with the designer insisting that at two fairly intense stages of flight (just after CDP and just prior to LDP) you take one hand off the controls, look and lean across the cockpit and firmly (if you jab it, you screw the system!) press a button on the far side of the cockpit! All in the name of safety!!

Without doubt, semi-automatic is the way to go - you know you are about to carry out a Cat A/confined procedure, then arm the system! If you are reducing speed for surveillance ops etc. at altitude then don’t bother.

Bobby, I know what you are saying about the Nr/Cat A switch, when I first converted to T2 I was very worried that an overenthusiastic flare would produce an overspeed, however, with many mishandled approaches under my belt I am now ‘reasonable confident’ that the fadec is competent enough to not throw in extra fuel when I am out of control! No doubt I will be proved wrong at some point.

Cheers

TeeS

[Thud_and_Blunder]

The T2 Cat A switch seems like the familiar Eurocopter cockpit/box-office design policy - let the engineers, not the pilots, decide what goes where.

If they have the wit to put a wiper-sweep switch and an ILS go-around button where they are needed, why not do the same with the Cat A? I don't mind what they choose so long as the pilot's hands don't have to move away from their normal positions on the collective and cyclic.

Then perhaps they can start on all the other controls that need sorting... getting rid of switches in the roof would be an excellent beginning.

[Head Turner]

The gripe about the 'CAT A' is a very important and flight safety gripe which I also find hard to understand the logic of putting the switch in such an awkward position. An arming button on the left side of the collective switch box would have been a better choice.

For those who remember the tragic accident in Northern Ireland a couple of years ago which more than likely happened because of a badly sited wiper on/off switch.

There are many gripes about the MD902 but in my opinion the cockpit switch logic and layout is the best I've come across.

However, the weight increase must be eagerly awaited by all users, so EADS get your finger out!

[semirigid rotor]

Now, as I understand it, and I could be wrong - the cat A system is fitted only because of a noise certification issue, nothing to do with safety, its a lot of work just for 3% Nr. The 145 has an automatic Cat A and I believe works just fine.

Interesting that the upgrade will be free to T2 owners, I didn't think ECD did anything for free!

I have to agree with some of the comments about switchology on the 135, some strange ideas about where to put things.:hmm:

[Head Turner]

The increase in RRPM I understand reduces the torque (at the same rpm) and therefore gives more available power for the critical take-off and landing stages of flight. It does not make it quieter or to be complient for noise certification.

[Bomber ARIS]

When engaged, the Cat A switch (i.e. the 3% nr increase) actually makes the aircraft noisier. The threshold at which it is deselected is due to noise abatement considerations. The combination of the higher nr combined with airspeeds in excess of 55 kts cause the EC135 noise signature to exceed the level at which the aircraft was certificated....

...at least that's what the bloke down the pub told me.

[Thomas coupling]

2910kg when ECD get sorted. TM all ready to make the transition. Estimated mid 2006.
T2 only, FOC. Fadec tweak and thermal limits on 2B2's extended.
Over 400 switches and c/b's in an EC135T2:(Mid life upgrade (2012) will see these reduced by half apparently. The PEUG have forwarded 47 amendments to the EC135 cockpit layout, including the sighting of the cat a switch.
Cat a switch fitted exactly as bomber ARIS stated. Unfortunately this has now knocked the T2 EC135 of the top slot for quietest light twin in europe. That honour goes to the 902 variant.
[T1 still retains top slot and now shares it with the 902].

[Head Turner]

Thanks for that ARIS but the vital info that you ought to have included was the name of the pub!

[semirigid rotor]

Wouldn't it be nice if ECD included a short chapter in the supplements for the FLM; which apart from giving the limits of the system, gave a brief description of what it is for :hmm:

An increase in NR for a lower torque does make more sense. I must try hovering and switching the Cat A on and seeing how much the TQ reduces (given that the AUW and wind will not change), and thereby see just how much extra power is available.

[Thomas coupling]

3% of hover torque power I would suggest?

[semirigid rotor]

TC. waiting for the phone to ring so that I can go out and try, but Hovering at 100% Nr with say 65% torque, Cat A pushed to get 103% NR, Tq decreases, but I can't see a direct correlation % for % :hmm:

[N Arslow]

I thought I remembered from the gallop through conversion that the CAT A switch boosted Nr in order to give a bit of flex for the good engine when recovering from a donk stop and subsequent Nr droop... or was I asleep and dreamt that?

[Head Turner]

I think that what we require here is a response from Eurocopter to detail exactly what the Cat A system that is installed on the T2/P2 entails therefore cutting out the guesswork/assumptions. For sure all that has been said is generally near the truth.

[semirigid rotor]

Just come back from harrassing innocent members of the public and the findings are as follows:

OAT +2, 135ft AMSL, wind 040/09, 2795Kg gross weight

4ft hover, without Cat A 58% Tq, with Cat A - 58% Tq

No discernable difference, Tq initially climbs when Cat A selected, but when everything has settled down, same figures on the VEMD. I didn't take the figures for N1 & TOT as they are not a limiting parameter.

Open to suggestions :confused:

[BIT]

The cat a switch was introduced to the uk with the introduction of the 135 t2 variant and was also part of the upgrade for existing t1 models to t2 standard. The raising of the Nr during cat a operations reduces droop following engine failures which means cat a t/o weights are increased. The airspeed at which the cat a mode is deselected was driven by noise constraints ie turn off as soon as possible due to increased noise in cat a mode.

[Capt Hollywood]

So hypothetically speaking a boss asks his pilot to create a wishlist of equipment for a new EC135. The aircraft would be mainly used for VIP transfers and would also be doing quite a few long distance trips. Any suggestions on what I.................I mean what the pilot, should ask for? :E

CH :cool:

[Letsby Avenue]

Air Con......

[Head Turner]

Before you go into all the nice things to have fitted look into the possibility of getting an airframe that can accept an auxillary tank. We discovered that as our airframe was not modded for an auxillary tank, having one fitted would have meant major airframe work. 2hours 20 minutes endurance is a real hindrance for long trips. You can spend as much time on the ground refuelling as flying and it costs you landing/handling fees every time you stop. We also went for low skids as more convenient for embarking/disembarking. Small boarding lights that illuminate the skids and steps are really good. Weather radar we did not consider an advantage nor did we go for air con. Tinted sun shields and windscreen wipers are a must. As performance is a problem we fly usually with only two rear facing seats fitted and a convenient cover is fitted over the third seat fittings. No bar or other weighty fittings.
I have not included here the piloty things as the list is very long.
Try and keep your ship as light as possible. Ours weighs in at 1832.

[verticalhold]

Be wary of the extra fuel tank. The C of G is far enough back as it is. Air con is vital it can get VERY warm in the back, let alone the effects of all that perspex in the front. We normally fly with the middle seat removed. But, I realy wish we had the radar. Also buy it some pyjamas. Its' a joy to fly and the temptation is to take it home at night and cuddle it:ok:

[bellsux]

JC Aviations aux fuel tank kit, Bruces custom covers nose bag, Engle fridge and you do already have a stereo don't you?

[Spunk]

Hi CaptainHollywood,

don't tell me you hit the lottery again. Isn't flying a brand new EC130 more than you can ask for??? What's next? EC 225????

Why does the devil always have to take a dump on the biggest turd?:ouch::{
(Does this phrase exist in english?)

Just kidding, good luck to you CH and if you need a holiday replacement just send me a pm.:ok:

[Head Turner]

Under normal climatic conditions in the UK and Euroland air con is not normally necessary and the penalty in cost,weight and CG is something you have to consider. With air con and an aux tank there will be a aft CG problem. You will have to decide which has the greatest benefit. We would have had the aux tank had the airframe been modded at birth. We have our own solution to long ferry flights.

[Eurobolkow]

Captain Holywood:

How about asking for an Agusta Grand instead, then you might be able to go somewhere far away, very quickly and in comfort too!!:)

[Head Turner]

Those of you who advocate a weather radar I have to ask you why do you need this item. I cannot see an advantage in having one flying in UK and Europe as there is ground radar available which if you are receiving Radar Informantion or Radar Advisory you should be able to request rerouting assistance due to adverse weather. Or am I wrong. It might be that I don't fly in nasty thundery weather because a little EC135 is no match for the brute forces of nature in CU and CB and remember you said it was VIP and for sure your VIP will not like flying in nasty weather.

[aeromys]

TCAS
Sheepskin seats in the front
Big, scalable moving map for finding those out of the way posh hotel helipads

[GmbH]

Chopper spotter, dolly, trolly or movable pad as the ground handling wheels were designed by the Germans to get back at the French for loosing WW2 (the big one) and the 135 is a real "pig dog" to move in and out of the hangar with literally any fuel on board. Oh, and maybe a pilot seat that goes up and down a little bit as after about 2 hours ones legs tend to go to sleep.

[Head Turner]

gmbH - you are right about the ground handling wheels. They are awful because they take all the shiny paint off, they're too heavy to handle and moving the heli on them is difficult. The G/H wheels of the A119/Bell are great.
We land on a platform on rails and pull/push with a little quad bike - works just fine except when it's icy which is not that often.

[tigerfish]

gmbh,
Ive said this before I know, but in relation to ground handling of the 135 you cant do better than to use a TLC helilift. All of the 16 UK police users of the 135 use them & as far as I know love em. I have no connection with the company but just love the bullet proof engineering of it.
check with any of the units.

[SASless]

VH,

Jammies for cuddling?

The TLC handling machine is the cat's meow....and some darn nice folks who make it too. Best ground handling machine I have ever seen.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Fascinating thread - amazed to read that people have problems with aft CofG! Our sort-of-police-role aircraft are restricted to something like an hour's fuel if the 2 heavy pilots are on shift - we'd do anything within reason to get the CofG back a bit. APFS is 1951kg for our heavier aircraft before role equipment is strapped-on.

Agree that air-con is a must, although the ones fitted to our (2) aircraft are often unserviceable at the end of a long supply chain. You may also find that the sand-filter is needed, although our engines have had significant erosion problems. Take a look at the performance penalties for both in Sect 9.2 first, though.

If you're getting Eurocopter's engineer to fit the sunshades in the cockpit, make sure you check the intercom leads BEFORE he leaves the site. Stanley knives can take a big bite out of those things; not very pleasant when you discover it after the man has gone back to Germany.

Our big ongoing difficulty is blade erosion - stay away from sandy landing areas, OK?!

...and finally, that TLC Helilift is one of the few pieces of kit which does everything you would want it to. The customers here have 3!

[Micko]

How about an onboard engineer so the pilot doesn't get oily hands and the all the beer gets drunk!!

[Brilliant Stuff]

Radio's which store some radio frequency's and then can be selecting by a switch on the cyclic.

Air con
VEMD where the scala only goes up to 13.5 which will be closest to you and is more pronounced, and anything below 5 is compressed that way you can judge better how much power you are pulling without getting a magnifying glass out.

Short Dash.

[verticalhold]

SASless;

I like my women in their stockings, my helicopter in its' jammies, and my sheep freshly shorn!!:E

VH

[gadgetguru]

your (new) co-pilot! ;)

[Vertolot]

Hi All,

Seems like the weight is bit of a problem for the EC135 and with an endurance of only 2h 20'! What about if you operate it(P2/T2) CAT A with lets say 4 persons on board, what kind of endurance do you get??

[aeromys]

Oh, and the TLC Helilift has an adapter lead which can be used as ground power when someone leaves the aircraft battery on after a refuel too.......:E

[chopperdr]

thud and blunder: we are about to introduce our new step mount at HAI. you mentioned fwd c/g issues on your airframe. what is your specific equipment fit
- sx-16
- flir camera (type?)

thanks
dr

[Thud_and_Blunder]

chopperdr,

SX16 is on nose-mount, ie forward of the panel where some aircraft have the landing light fitted (ours is moved to the skid crosstube, by the dead-weight PA speakers...). Field of travel limited to just 180 degrees in azimuth, pilot has no controller on the collective - not good.

The camera is the Wescam kit mentioned in the original Eurocopter book - I'm not at work so cannot provide the part number, but it's not the modern (MX15?) turret. Be warned that the weights and arms given for this kit in Sect 6 of the FLM are completely wrong. We wouldn't have been able to fly at all if the book figures (from memory, 207kgs for the entire system) had been correct. However, after reweighing and then getting the figures checked by a Eurocopter engineer we found that the system actually weighed 90.7 kgs. Big difference. However, the customers bought the old-fashioned console (CRT screen, processor, VHS(!) recorder all on a mount IN FRONT OF the rear seats). That's what throws our CofG way forward - make sure you shove all that stuff in the boot where it belongs and get an LCD instead of the heavy tube.

You'd get better info on how the kit should be fitted either from Bond in the UK or the BGS in Germany, who both put the nightsun on the left skid-front mount.

[PANews]

It is noteworthy that this thread has drifted from nose heavy to tail heavy and back again. And all eminating from the same question of what would you fit on a standard EC135 airframe.

All the variety of answers has tended to queer the pitch for the standard question of 'How does type X fly?' ... and underlines that there is no real answer without first clarifying the specification, equipment fit, role and required mission. All tempered with compromise. Yes, fly two pilot but do not forget to slide a few kg of lead down the tail boom.

That neither the 'standard' Eurocopter police fit [everything up front on mounting beams] and the McAlpine role pod solution actually represent a finite answer to the tail heavy bare airframe is noteworthy. The best place for everything might be on a centre line beam... but wait on... here come lateral CoG to mess up the sums!

It all points to a need to be an expert in weight and balance design BEFORE you sign off the final payment!

[chopperdr]

thud and blunder: our mount is very similar to original multipurpose step which has proved to be very popular. on our design we have:

- shortened the length of our tube from the front cross tube forward, to reduce bending moment
- put identical end bosses to receive our gen II dovetail at front and rear so that, landing lights/p.a. / downlink antenna etc can be mounted on the rear of the tube
- increased wall thickness of tube
- added more height to the fwd goose neck for additional ground clearance
- goose neck is mfg from solid billet aluminum and bolted together, no welds
- delron flat step is attached to top of tube to assist entry/exit

as for c/g of external role equipment, that part is out of our hands. we are always looking for suggestions and comments from experienced operators.
p.m. if you want to see some jpegs
thanks
dr

[Oogle]

Captain Hollywood

Look in the brochures for yourself and pick out the nice things that you would like/need.

The one saving grace is that there are companies out there that make fantastic after market products (DART or Aeronautical Accessories). You would get much more bang for your buck if you steer away from Eurocopter products as they are very expensive.

You are on the Gold Coast?? Take a trip up to Archerfield and talk to the QLD Rescue guys.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Chopperdr,

Good for you - have re-read your first post as well, and now see your perspective. Sounds like you're making something genuinely useful. Sadly I have no say in what the customers here actually buy; I think it fair to say that efficiency is way down their list of purchase specifications...

Back to the original poster, I think Oogle has some of the best points made so far. Don't feel you have to buy from Eurocopter - some of the other "completions" people out there, many of whom actually listen to what customers really want, can do a very good deal. Personally I wouldn't have put the 135 as top of my list for VIP work - passenger comfort/vibration/endurance issues mainly - but if that's what you're working with then get onto some of those non-Eurocopter agents.

[Capt Hollywood]

Appreciate all the info fellas. Oogles suggestion is exactly what I'm doing at the moment, just choosing all the toys I want! :ok:

Cheers,

CH :cool:

[Capt Hollywood]

Thanks for all the suggestions but it looks like we're just getting another new EC130! Oh well, I'll just have to make do I s'pose! :ok:

Cheers,

CH :cool:

[Vertolot]

Just interested to know what kind of CAT A Performance the EC135 P2 has. Anybody out there who can give me the maximum permissible weight for the following:

- CAT A Helipad Takeoff/Landing
- OAT +20 C
- Pressure Alt. 1000 feet

What is a typical Equipped Empty Weight (EEW) for a 135 in HEMS configuration?

Thanks in advance:cool:

[ec135driver]

My graph says you can achieve it at 2835kg

I would guess at about 2000kg equipped weight

:ok:

[Vertolot]

Isn't the EC135 Max. approved gross weight appr. 2850 kg???? Are you sure it will have CAT A approved Helipad performance at these conditions close to max. approved gross weight??:confused:

[tecpilot]

Vertolot

to be correct and to avoid misunderstandings, the two CAT A procedures are named "Clear Heliport" and "Elevated Heliport".
On "Elevated Heliports" in 1000ft the weight is 2835 up to 28°C.

What is a typical Equipped Empty Weight (EEW) for a 135 in HEMS configuration?



If you talk about a typical configuration, used in the big EC 135 fleets in Germany, Austria, ... the EET is 1820-1880 kg. The weight of the EMS equipment (hardware) is nearly all the same. The differencies in weight between the producers are small. Therefore the EEW of your EC 135 depends more from the a/c weight. Buy air condition, floats, hoist, hooks, .... use old steel oxygen bottles instead of carbon or LOX... and the EEW is more than 2200kg.

The more than 50 EMS EC 135 in Germany and Austria are mostly only VFR day/night single pilot equipped without any other a/c optionals.

[Vertolot]

Tecpilot,

Thanks for your reply. I just have seen on some other Eurocopter FM's that they use the the worlds Clear Heliports and Helipads for CAT A operations, but the Elevated Heliport is probably the same as Helipad.

Thanks,

[tecpilot]

Only a question of the right charts in the FM EC 135. :)

The Cat A on BK 117 terms are "Clear Heliport" and "Elevated or Restricted Helipads". The BO 105 "Special Takeoff and Landing Operations" terms are the same like BK 117 plus a "Short Field" section.

[tecpilot]

To stay ahead of the competition, Eurocopter has certified an increased take-off weight of 2,910 kg (from formerly 2,835 kg). LBA/EASA certification was granted on February 21, 2006. Deliveries will start as of late September 2006. For customers operating the new variant, which is designated EC 135 T2i or P2i respectively, the benefits are evident: More payload, more performance, more range.

The increase of take-off weight is complemented by a reduction of empty weight to 1,455 kg, giving the EC135 now an exceptional empty weight ratio of 50 percent. Useful load is thereby increased by 80 kg which equals one passenger more, or more fuel allowing for 100 km more range, or 30 minutes more endurance. The weight of the EC 135’s IFR equipment was reduced by 10 kg. Therefore, the useful load for IFR-equipped aircraft is up by even 90 kg. Hot & High performance has also been improved, up to an additional 180 kg hover weight and up to an additional 2,000 ft. hover altitude. Retrofits will be available to customers presently operating the EC 135 T2 or P2.

ECD is continuously working on innovation and optimisation to keep the EC 135 family at the top of its class. The efforts during 2005 concentrated on the complete range of offshore equipment including corrosion protection (with a view to the aircraft’s growing success in the offshore market), increase of CAT A gross weight by 30 kg to 75 kg (depending on outside temperature), qualification of new FADEC software and many other features.

[Head Turner]

For those interested in a retrofit, this won't be available until an SB is written and approved which could be by year end.

[moosp]

If you had the choice of engines, which would you choose and why? The choice is the Turbomeca ARRIUS 2B2 or Pratt and Whitney 206B2 engines.

They are pretty close on TO power and the Pratt has more MCP, but there is much more to it than grunt.

Any experiences please?

[SHortshaft]

We looked closely at the EC 135. We came to the conclusion that in Asia the P&W was the way to go. I don’t think that a Turbomeca powered machine has been sold in this region yet. Even Eurocopter recommended P&W to us!

[GoodGrief]

Quite a few operators actually choose depending on which service center is closest by or they have best experience with.

[skadi]

One advantage of the Turbomecas is, that You dont have to clean your tailboom so often, it seems they burn the fuel better than the Pratts

[moosp]

Thank you for your inputs. We note in Hong Kong that Turbomeca were quick off the mark with the marketing and had guys in town within weeks of the order. PW perhaps do not need the sale, it is such a small part of their operation.

I have seen on another thread ref the choice in the Squirrel, the Turbomeca units were criticised as being very expensive when they go wrong - especially to replace, whereas the Alison/RR units were much cheaper.

Anyone have any comparisons or stories about maintenance of the PW versus the Turbomeca?

Or any other facts, rumour or scuttlebut gratefully received.

[Thomas coupling]

They both do an admirable job, I'm sure. A couple of minor issues but nothing that stands out.
Consequently, by far the biggest decision maker has then got to be:

CUSTOMER CARE:hmm:

Logistics / turnround times/ etc far more important....

[Brilliant Stuff]

Turbomeca need clean de-ionised water for their engine washes and P&W just need tapwater, that is why one of the UK Police ASU's is opting for P&W on their new 135. So I am told.

[moosp]

Thanks for these. Brilliant, that would stangely make a big difference here as in a marine environment we shall need to wash daily. I'll chase it up.

[Big Bucks Bernie]

The ADAC Luftrettung GmbH in Germany has a mixed fleet of EC-135T1s and EC-135P2s. Maybe they or possibly Air Lloyd Luftfahrt Technik GmbH, who do most of the maintenance work for the ADAC helicopters, could help you out in ascertaining the pros and cons of the two different engine types.

[Fortyodd2]

The TM requirement for daily rinsing specified a minimum standard for the water to be used. There are some places in the UK where the supplied tap water would have met that specification but it needed to be guaranteed, day in, day out. Using de-ionised, demineralized or distilled simply guarantees the quality. As several UK operators have discovered over the last few months, there's a lot more to water than you think!!

PM me if you need more.

[Vertolot]

Big Bucks Bernie,

Do you know how many 135T1 and 135P2 ADAC have in there fleet, are they all used for HEMS?

Vertolot

[skadi]

@vertolot
all ADAC Helicopters ( EC 135, EC 145, BK 117 and BO 105 ) are used for HEMS. The EC 135 fleet : 3 T1, 15 P2 and 6 P1.

[Big Bucks Bernie]

According to the ADAC website (see ADAC-Hubschrauber-Flotte (http://www.adac.de/mitgliedschaft_leistungen/Luftrettung/Die_Flotte/default.asp?ComponentID=2176&SourcePageID=7684)), the ADAC fleet consists of 21 EC-135s.

I however would tend to agree with the numbers that "skadi" gave above, i.e. 3 T1, 6 P1 and 15 P2. Now it should be noted that one of the mentioned 15 EC-135 P2s (D-HDCL) belongs to a sister company of the ADAC, called Elbe Helicopter and is based in Bautzen as a backup machine for Elbe Helicopter's BK-117.

[Vertolot]

Is ADAC still using the Bo105s for HEMS? Is there PC1(Performance Class 1) performance in the 105?

(PS. Sorry for my question not related directly to the topic)

[Big Bucks Bernie]

I know that they still use a BO-105 on a full-time basis as "Christoph 33" in Senftenberg. Other than that, the one or two remaining BO-105s in the ADAC fleet serve more as backup machines.

The BMI (Bundesinnenministerium) and the DRF still have quite a number of BO-105s in use as HEMS machines (see EMS Helicopters in Germany (http://rth.info/stationen.db.liste.php?search_cat=CHR)). In general though, the BO-105 is slowly but surely being phased out, due to the more stringent JAR-OPS 3 requirements, which will be implemented in Germany by the end of 2009.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

(Message deleted as it didn't fit in with this no-notice change to another thread)

[handysnaks]

Oi, keep me out of this:suspect: ;)
I was going to delete this message due to the deleted message above. Then I decided to delete the idea I had to delete the message and leave it in! Anyway, here it is (or, there it was!)

[Big Bucks Bernie]

As was mentioned in a similar thread about the EC-135 not too long ago (see
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189945&page=19&highlight=ec135), the ADAC Luftrettung GmbH in Germany has a mixed fleet of EC-135Ts and EC-135Ps.
Maybe they or possibly Air Lloyd Luftfahrt Technik GmbH, who do most of the maintenance work for the ADAC helicopters, could give you some comparison information on what the pros and cons of the two different engine types are.

[Big Bucks Bernie]

German Army Air Corps School in Bückeburg clocks up 30,000 training hours on the EC135

Marignane/Bückeburg, September 8, 2006

The German Army’s EC135 training helicopter fleet at the German Army Air Corps School in Bückeburg reached the 30,000-hour mark at the end of August 2006. The German Army has been operating 14 EC135 state-of-the-art training helicopters since 2000 and relies on a customer maintenance and service contract with Eurocopter Deutschland GmbH to ensure smooth operation. These helicopters are used for advanced flight training for all parts of the German military.

Between six and eight courses for budding pilots in the German Army, Air Force and Navy take place in Bückeburg each year. After completing their initial training in a BO105, the trainee pilots then learn to fly in the most demanding conditions including day and night flight, low-level flight, flying in mountainous regions and under IFR flight conditions.

The training the pilots receive using state-of-the-art flight controls and cockpit systems architecture equips them with the skills they subsequently apply when flying the CH53G, UH- 1D, MK41, MK88 helicopters as well as the newest weapons systems, the NH90 and Tiger helicopters.

http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/img_wsw//EC135-Helo1.JPG

The innovative training concept relies, not least due to capacity and cost constraints, on high-tech EC135 simulators as well as the EC135 itself, with pilots gaining up to 60% of the required flying time in the Bückeburg simulator center. These simulators are also operated under a cooperative agreement.

With this training concept, Eurocopter is the first full system support provider in the history of the German Army. This maintenance and support concept offers a combination of a flexible personnel structure, high availability and reduced operating costs, which allow us to react to changes in the customer’s training mission requirements rapidly and reliably.

This means that Eurocopter provides full support around the clock for 14 helicopters –including pre-flight checks, refueling, debriefing and all scheduled maintenance, repairs and the full range of support for training flights, such as mountain flight training in Austria and France. The back-to-base support for the helicopters is provided at Eurocopter’s maintenance center in Kassel-Calden, which is distinguished by its wealth of experience in providing maintenance support to international military and civil aviation organizations.

"According to our contract, we always have 12 helicopters ready to fly during the day and six at night. This allows us to operate a two-shift system with 13 highly qualified staff, which reliably provides the army with between 5,500 and 6,000 flying hours per year at present", says Ralph Kohlstädt, who is the Maintenance Manager responsible for the Eurocopter Line Station in Bückeburg, about the service provided by the Eurocopter team.

"As customers, we are able to concentrate on our core business and expertise, of giving optimum flight training to young pilots, working in a concentrated and cost-effective way by leaving the job of ensuring that our EC135 training fleet is always ready to fly to Eurocopter", explains Lieutenant Colonel Runge, Flight Director at the Army Air Corps School, about the benefits of the Public Private Partnership between the army and the helicopter manufacturer.
Source: Eurocopter Press Release (http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/FO/scripts/newsFO_complet.php?lang=EN&news_id=422)

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

Have heard a few tales around of EC135 Main Transmission issues :-
Blocked and bypassed filters
Strange grainy black material in the filter
Water ingress
Anybody out there had any of these problems - please feel free to post!
Would like to know so I can avoid them!

[MightyGem]

Nothing heard here.

[RVDT]

SB EC135-71-033 Retrofit to EC135 T2+ or P2+

Prerequisites -

Titanium torque struts

L623M1003 109 Mast with Euro 4 or 5 MMI (i.e. the painted one with integral scissor lugs)

MGB S/N 0301 or higher

Transmax Lube Oil in MGB

Modified X-Y fittings ( if AC SN higher than 445 you already have them)

Must have ADC

Must have correct FADEC Software version - if you already have CAT A your OK

Various other smaller mods are required depending on your aircraft and mod status - the ones above are the big ones.

The VEMD and CAD software is changed and the CAT A switch is now called HIGH NR.

Life limits are reduced on a range of components - Mast now lifed etc.

Power increase -

AEO MCP - no change
AEO TOP - now 2 x 78 was 75
AEO Transient - now 2 x 82 was 80
OEI MCP - now 1 x 89.5 was 86

HIGH NR -

Previously CAT A was selected ON below 55 KIAS. With HIGH NR system it is virtually the same except when selected, the data from the ADC will select HIGH NR OFF above 55 KIAS.

:D

[Phoinix]

How is the high skid variant of EC135P/T2 protected against wire strike? The low skid has the protection, as i saw it on OAMTC of austria, but how can the high skid variant have the protection mounted?

Are there only two skid heights or is there more?

BTW: The helicopter should be camera and nightsun equiped.

Thak you for your time!

[Queen O' the Skies]

To my knowledge, none of the UK McAlpines equipped, high skid, police role 135s (I've flown about half of them) have any wire strike protection. However, my 6 year old son has a Macs poster on his bedroom wall that shows line drawings of low and high skid 135s fitted with wire cutters above and below the cockpit, and the high skid variant had what appear to be extensions on the front of the skids - presumably to deflect wires beneath the aircraft.
Just to give a balanced view: the Police MD902 that I currently fly also has no wire strike protection - although it too could be fitted.
I'm sure McAlpines at Oxford would be able to give you a definitive answer for the 135.
QOS

[Phoinix]

http://eu.airliners.net/photos/middle/4/3/1/0369134.jpg

Thanks for replying!
I saw this photo, it has high skid, and the wire protection mounted. It seems to me that low and high skid configuration have no difference in wire cutters.

I can't figure out if these skid wire deflectors allow the camera and night sun to be mounted.

[chopperdr]

We are currently in the process of getting a similar step mount faa stc'd for both the 135 and 145. when no cameras or searchlights are installed, the skid tube wire strike guards are installed, with the camera or searchlight installed, they are removed
dr

[Ian Corrigible]

As both QOS and chopperdr indicate, I think it's an either or decision. Another well-known operator of high-skid sensor-equipped a/c (Wescam/SX16/Hellas) is the BGS. See here (http://www.airventure.de/BGS03/F1000033.jpg), here (http://simon.francoisxavier.free.fr/d-hvbj.jpg) and here (http://www.airventure.de/BGS03/F1000035.jpg).

I/C

[Phoinix]

Thank you all for the information. BGS or Bundes Polizei (now) are our example, but i couldn't find any photos of combined cutters and equipment, so i guess its either one or the other. We will have to deal with that.

[skadi]

Thank you all for the information. BGS or Bundes Polizei (now) are our example, but i couldn't find any photos of combined cutters and equipment, so i guess its either one or the other. We will have to deal with that.

Hi Phoinix,
here's a Photo of a EC 135 on High Skids with WSPS , but just the upper part of it.

http://www.copterweb.de/

Thats one of the first new EMS-Helicopters flown by the Bundespolizei

skadi

[chopperdr]

sirs: feel free to send PM, have lots of jpegs of our mounts which have hardpoints forward and rear, also can carry a variety of cameras (FSI,Wescam, Cineflex) as well.
thanks
dr

[Phoinix]

I noticed there are many versions out there, but i couldn't find the differences. For example, what it the difference between P2+ and P2i? I heard some small talk about P2i being upgraded P2+ from P2. Is that correct?

Thank you for any answers that would clear this out for me.

[handysnaks]

I think that the P2i and the P2+ are the same. The correct name being the P2+

The main difference is an increase in MAUM from 2835kg to 2910kg.
Also the CAT A (now called High NR) facility is partially automated, that is to say that with the High NR mode on, the NR will decrease when airspeed passes 55Kt on the way up and increase when the airspeed passes 55-50Kt on the way down (up and down in this context meaning accelleration rather than climb!)

[RVDT]

P2i - Helicopter delivered new that way.

P2+ - Eligible aircraft that has been retrofitted via SB EC135-71-033

Effectively they are the same.

Same same - T Models.

Have a P2 that is eligible and the price of the SB is in line with marketing policy and not costs! All things considered, to us it looks like Euro 150K for a VEMD software upgrade!! I am sure someone has thought about it and you have to consider what the increase is worth to you as a performance upgrade and the increase in value of the aircraft both to the owner and in the market.

Be aware of "availability" of the SB. This SB does make the older aircraft compete against new deliveries!

[Brilliant Stuff]

Not only software upgrade also new MRGB oil and straps. And it's the straps which makes it expensive so I am told. I stand to be corrected.

[Thomas coupling]

The upgraded version and the new option coming off the production line will be called the Ec135T2i/P2i.
MGB oil changed from the synthetic one currently in use, to the old mineral oil which has proven more effective.
Compulsory X-Y bracket change to titanium.
New Fadec software (IEMD).
Mod to the CAT A setup (adjusting Nr by 3% for take off and landing at 55kts. ECD say its to do with noise abatement (thus keeping their title as the quietest light twin in the world) but its actually to give the revs a kick up the backside to lift a greater APS off the deck.:E
Other husbandry changes.
This gives you an additional 75Kg (2835 - 2910Kg).Payload (or 20 mins endurance). Is it worth £50,000 - £100,000, depending on mod state)???
What bugs me is that the competition have wrung the Light twin (Jar 27) MAUM to the limit. 109S and 429 are up at 3175Kg and even the 902 has crept up to 6500lb (atleast for everyone else in the world except the UK:{).
Why haven't ECD stolen the show and done the same? They would blow the competition out of the water if they did this.
Perhaps they are going to milk the customer all the way to the limit over the next 5 yrs by charging for it:=

[handysnaks]

The upgraded version and the new option coming off the production line will be called the Ec135T2i/P2i.


When will this be TC?







.......cos I'll have to get them to change our Flight Manual!:p

[RVDT]

The change in the MRGB oil is to Castrol Transmax Z Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid. There is also an increase in the quantity by changing the level indicator on the sight glass. (10 minute job). Also the oil needs to be flushed with 2 changes of the new oil at ~10 and ~ 50 hours after the change. Note: You can do this mod to MOST MRGB's in service. Always thought Jet II was average as a gearbox oil anyway.

Also included is some reduction in finite lives of some components. These are not drastic changes.

When the 135 emerged it was already a "stretched" version of the 108 and I doubt there is much left in it. They cant make enough of them at the moment so why bother to change the formula? They already outsell the 429 109S and 902 combined!! production is around ~ 60 - 70 per year!

Now a little birdie did tell me that IF they got the US military contract for the 145 there would be some tin in the pot for more development.

Imagine a 145 with 5 blades!! No need it's already flying. With 5 blades you don't need ARIS mounts - No 4P vibes. The addition of the 5th blade is offset by the removal of the ARIS mounts.

http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/FO/scripts/newsFO_complet.php?lang=EN&news_id=390

Main parts of the SB here for those that don't have access and apologies for the long post. Keep in mind that there may be "availability" issues.


SERVICE BULLETIN
EC135
EC135-71-033
PAGE 1 of 25
2006-10-30
REVISION 01, 2007-01-23
Power Plant – Version EC135 T2 and EC135 P2 – Retrofit to Version
EC135 T2+ and EC135 P2+
1. Planning Information
A. Effectivity
(1) Helicopters affected: EC135 T2 and EC135 P2.
(2) Components affected: CAD (Cockpit Advisory Display):
Version 2002 NVG and Non VNG or
Version 2003 NVG and Non VNG
VEMD (Vehicle Engine Management Display):
Version 2002 NVG and Non NVG or
Version 2003 NVG and Non NVG
Rotor hub–shaft, preassy L623M1003 109
Rotor mast hub L623M1003 209
Rotor hub–shaft assy L623M1006 102
Main transmission 4649 010 006 or
4649 010 008
Forked lever, preassembled L671M3012 101
Forked lever L671M3004 205
Hinged support, preassembled L671M7003 103
Hinged support L671M7003 208
Placard 2835 kg L110M1814 205 or
L110M1814 206
Placard VNE L110M1814 207 or
L110M1814 208
(3) Spare parts affected: Not applicable.
B. Concurrent Requirements
After accomplishment of the measures given in this Service Bulletin, the pilots must be informed on its content and their attention must be drawn to the fact that they must comply with flight manual EC135 T2+ or EC135 P2+. The subsequently given components are required for accomplishment of this Service Bulletin. If the components are not already installed, they must be retrofitted with accomplishment of this Service Bulletin:
– Torque strut assy (titanium) with P/N L633M1001 104 or L633M1001 105.
– Rotor hub–shaft (reinforced) L623M1003 109 with Euro 4 or Euro 5 mast moment system.
– Main transmission with S/N 0301 or higher.
– Lubricating oil Transmax Z for the main transmission, see SB EC135-63-011.
– XY–fitting L533M2001103 and L533M2002103, see SB EC135-53-016.
– On helicopters without FCDS and without Air Data Computer the ADC2 must be retrofitted, see SB EC135-34-018.
The following Service Bulletins must be accomplished with accomplishment of this Service Bulletin only when they are effective for the helicopter to be retrofitted and have not already been accomplished:
– On helicopters with Miscellaneous Flight Data Acquisistion Unit MFDAU:
SB EC135-31-026.
– On helicopters with AFCS up to S/N 0217: SB EC135-22-005 for retrofit of the improved Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS).
– On helicopters with FCDS up to S/N 0217: ASB EC135-31A-002 for replacement of the PDF and / or ND.
– On EC135 T2 up to S/N 0285: ASB EC135-77A-002 for replacement of the triple RPM indicator.
– On helicopters up to S/N 0325 with CPDS before version 2003: SB EC135-31-009 for modification of the wiring routed to the CPDS.
– On helicopters EC135 T2: Mandatory–SB 319 73 2090 by Turbomeca ”Electronic Engine Control Unit (EECU) with version 6 software – Incorporation of TU90C”.
C. Reason
With this Service Bulletin, ECD offers the retrofit of EC135 T2 to version EC135 T2+ and of EC135 P2 to EC135 P2+ .
Thus, the maximum permissible gross mass (MTOW) increases from 2835 kg to 2910 kg. The “Hot+High” performance of the helicopter is improved i.a.w. the flight manual. The torque ratings increase as follows:
– AEO TOP from 2 x 75% to 2 x 78%.
– AEO Transient from 2 x 80% to 2 x 82%.
– OEI MCP from 1 x 86% to 1 x 89.5%
D. Description
Replace VEMD (Vehicle and Engine Management Display) and CAD (Caution and Advisory Display). Retrofit CAT A switch to High NR System. Reidentify components. Have new FADEC software installed. Replace placards.
E. Compliance
Compliance with this Service Bulletin is optional.
F. Approval
The information or instructions contained in this document refer to change no. 647 and 664.
The technical content of this document is approved under the authority of DOA No. EASA.21J.034.

Master Servicing Manual (MSM) EC135
Page 628
2006.12.04
05-62-00, 6-3
F. (10) Perform HIGH NR mode check (only valid for engine type T2+):
Rated Value Actual Value n
Stabilized hover flight – perform
HIGH NR switch in instrument panel – press
Increase of NRo – record from VEMD
(SYSTEM STATUS)
103.5 %
$ 0.2 %
HIGH NR switch in instrument panel – ON indicator illuminates
Advisory indication HIGH NR – check (if installed)
Flight condition: Level flight – perform
Airspeed – increase slowly to at least 60 KIAS
At 55 KIAS:
Decrease of NRo – record from VEMD
(SYSTEM STATUS)
100.0 %
$0.2 %
Advisory indication HIGH NR – check off (if installed)
Airspeed – decrease slowly to at least 40 KIAS
At 50KIAS:
Increase of NRo – record from VEMD
(SYSTEM STATUS)
103.5 %
$ 0.2 %
Advisory indication HIGH NR – check (if installed)
Stabilized hover flight – perform
HIGH NR switch in instrument panel – press
HIGH NR switch in instrument panel – ON indicator extinguished
Advisory indication HIGH NR – check off (if installed)
Functional Check Flight EC135 T2 / T2+ (CPDS) – Test Report
Form 603 (12 of 31)
Master Servicing Manual (MSM) EC135
Page 624
2006.12.04
05-62-00, 6-4
F. (9) Perform HIGH NR mode check (only valid for engine type P2+):
Rated Value Actual Value n
Stabilized hover flight – perform
HIGH NR switch in instrument panel – press
Increase of NRo – record from VEMD
(SYSTEM STATUS)
103.15 %
$ 0.35 %
HIGH NR switch in instrument panel – ON indicator illuminates
Advisory indication HIGH NR – check (if installed)
Flight condition: Level flight – perform
Airspeed – increase slowly to at least 60 KIAS
At 55 KIAS:
Decrease of NRo – record from VEMD
(SYSTEM STATUS)
100.2 %
$0.2 %
Advisory indication HIGH NR – check
Airspeed – decrease slowly to at least 40 KIAS
At 50KIAS:
Increase of NRo – record from VEMD
(SYSTEM STATUS)
103.15 %
$ 0.35 %
Advisory indication HIGH NR – check (if installed)
Stabilized hover flight – perform
HIGH NR switch in instrument panel – press
HIGH NR switch in instrument panel – ON indicator extinguished
Advisory indication HIGH NR – check off (if installed)
Functional Check Flight EC135 P2 / P2+ (CPDS) – Test Report
Form 603 (10 of 25)

[Phoinix]

A big thank you to all for your replys.

That's odd. We are buying a brand new EC 135, s/n 600, and from what i was told it's a +. The type rating instructors always talked about the + version and thus i thought i is the upgraded version.

[Thomas coupling]

Andy: the marketing literature and advertising is using the "i" logo. The FLM is using the "+". Straight from the engineers at ECD this morning:)

Apologies it is synthetic MGB oil even though they told the PEUG it was old fashioned mineral (checked my notes).

[Phoinix]

The flight manual states: "When starting engines, the starter energize time is the time which elapses between initiation of the starter and ignition in the turbine."

What is ignition in the turbine suppose to be?

We have 40Ah battery installed so the FM limitation is 15 seconds starter energize time. Our EC takes 25 seconds from switching on ENG switch until it reaches 50% N1, when the starter switches to generator mode.

[skadi]

What is ignition in the turbine suppose to be?



Hi Phoinix,
thats when the fuel starts burning -> TOT rising. You can also hear it.

skadi

[Phoinix]

Thank you for clearing that out :ok:

[bolkow]

Is'nt the 902 the Notar machine. If it is I belive the London air ambulance were trying soem time back to get rid of theirs. I heard a whisper that its no comparison to their previous dauphin in terms of reliability??

[PANews]

London Air Ambulance were trying to get rid of their 902 Notar and at that time it had its issues but they did not have the money to parachute out. Now things are far better [but not quite as perfect as some would like us to believe]. The ancient Dauphin they had, G-HEMS, is back in the UK serving another HEMS service.

But this is an EC135 thread that has been asleep for months ... did you get lost Bolkow?

[bolkow]

Does anybody know where I might source information on the direct operating costs for an EC135?
My gratitude in anticipation.

[widgeon]

Conklin & de Decker - Aircraft Operating Costs & Aviation Services (http://www.conklindd.com/)

[Phoinix]

Can someone please enlighten me on this service bulletin EC135-34-023.

I don't completely understand eurocopters description of the problem: "When performing certain flight maneuvers a discrepancy of the vertical display between system I and system II can occur."

Vertical display is suppose to be ... (fill in the blank). Replacing AHRU should correct the problem software wise.

[RVDT]

Pitch and Roll being movement relative to the vertical axis. Sound familiar?

What does the SB mean? The original software in the AHRU was crap. You can change it if you have problems - at your expense of course. Don't blame us we told you so and admit no liability. Thinly veiled admission of a c**k-up. Replace AHRU = EUR 65,000.00 EACH!!

You can in certain conditions (heat, turbulence, rough touchdown) upset the crosstalk from SYS I and SYS II. You should get a "GYRO" caption and you will lose the AFCS. Reverts to analogue SAS. A/P Upper modes not available.

Das ist nicht fertig!

Ask your engineer why the SEMA attachment screws are not safe locked on a 135 yet the same item on a 155 is !!!!! Granted they will never fall out, (although you can fit screws that are too long - see SB) it still doesn't comply with type certification requirements.

Each removable bolt, screw, nut, pin, or other fastener whose loss could jeopardize the safe operation of the rotorcraft must incorporate two separate locking devices. The fastener and its locking devices may not be adversely affected by the environmental conditions associated with the particular installation.

[Phoinix]

Right,... i understand now, thank you.

That vertical display got me wondering. We didn't experience those kind of problems yet, we only get a lot of CPDS FAIL in flight report display and other usual "windows" kind of errors, like att. trim caution at random.

One more question while we are at it. We have some airspeed discrepancy. Back up airspeed indicator is showing the same values as CPLT's readings however, PLT's reading is 5 to 10 kts lower than other two (10 kts at speeds lower than 50 kts).
At what point will the discrepancy become evident (arrow marking) on PFD due to SYS I and SYS II indication differences?

[RVDT]

Phoinix,

Can't remember when the discrepancy warning will pop up. If it does and upsets things like the autopilot just switch to I or II ADC.

If you physically swap ADC's is probably an easy way to troubleshoot things if you don't have pitot/static test gear close by. If the fault doesn't follow the ADC you have a leaky pitot, not as uncommon as you think on a 135! ;)

[Phoinix]

Thanks for the info RVDT. A couple of more questions have popped up during this time:

EC135P2+

The shut down check list states:
ENG I/II main switches - IDLE
Clock - Start


Why should i start the clock if there is no limitation regarding coolong down of the engines on IDLE. Or did i miss something regarding cooling down? I know the 10 seconds for FADEC off.

In practice, how much time do you let your engines to cool?



Other question; the FLM is very sparse on the count down timer explanation for AEO MCP.

The FLM states: "For 5 min. limit, the counter is invisible."

Training manual:

Count down timer
AEO above MCP
(unclear about time limit and why does it state "above MCP". Is this the time limit for the MCP range or above?)

5' countdown timer
Five seconds before the time limit is reached the red flashing box, the limit symbol and the counter appear. When the time limit is expired, the red box is fixed.

What will the red box contain? "LIMIT"?


Thank you for any answer!

Regards, Jure

[RVDT]

Phoinix,

There is no cool down for sure on the P2. Cant comment on the P2+ but I would assume it is a typo. Contact your friendly ECD Tech Rep.

The P2 actually has PW207 engines in it rebadged as 206B2 to ease type certification issues and largely avoiding lots of paperwork. This engine is quite different from a 206B internally. The P1 DOES have a cool down but of only 30 seconds.

The reason you don't turn the FADEC off prematurely is that the EECU "writes" the last flights data to the DCU at or below a certain N1 speed. This data is then sent to the EECU on the next flight. Turning off the FADEC before the data was transferred created all sorts of corrupt data. Later EECU's write the data at a higher N1 speed to avoid this.

The AEO MCP "limit" is invisible. Correct you will get a red "LIMIT" in a red box on the FLI. (This limit is for the MGB not the engines, but the engines record the data)

For the OEI 30sec./2.0 min limit the counter IS visible and 5 seconds before the counter reaches zero a flashing red box appears around the word "LIMIT". When the countdown has expired, the red box is fixed and ENG EXCEED caution comes on. (this limit IS for the engines). Every time the engines are started the 30 sec limit is the default setting. If you press the TOPPING switch on the collective you can "Lock out" the 30 second OEI HI rating from being available and you will be only able to use the 2.0 min OEI limits. If you push the TOPPING switch again it will toggle back to OEI HI 30 sec. availability. The engine will show ENG EXCEED when you have only enough "life" left in the engine for one 30 sec or 2.0 min excursion. This is to allow for the fact you may need this power to land OEI.

See RFM 2.12 Engine Transmission Power Limitations - ZF FS 108

RFM ~ 7.38 and 2.17

[Phoinix]

Thank you for your time and effort RVDT.

Just to be clear, what is than the stated 4' 55'' countdown from the TRM (July 2006 edition, page 00-62, top right)?

I have a notice from the TR course that the AOE MCP countdown timer appears the last 5 seconds of 5' countdown, and it still doesn't make sense to me.

[RVDT]

Phoinix,

If you are in the AEO MCP (yellow band) for longer than 4 mins 55 seconds the LIMIT will illuminate along with a GONG at 5 minutes and you now have a recorded exceedance. In this case an MGB exceedance. Keep in mind that there are no sensors in the MGB to measure this limit. It is done by the engines via the FADEC.

There are 2 cases.

1) As soon as only 5 seconds of either 5 minute (AEO MCP) 2 minute OEI or 30 seconds OEI remain you will get a LIMIT with flashing box around it. If you exceed that limit the box goes to steady state with an audio GONG.

2) Exceedance of 30 second power OEI, 5 minute takeoff power (AEO Overtorque) or Mast Moment will trigger the LIMIT signal immediately together with a GONG. Depending on the exceedance it will be recorded. In the case of the AEO Overtorque there is a transient limit, check your applicable RFM as it varies between models.

Also keep in mind that AEO MCP is only useable at V less than or equal to Vy (65 KIAS).

[Phoinix]

Thank you RVDT! All cleared out now :ok:

[TheVelvetGlove]

Can anybody relate their experiences operating/flying a P1?

Do they have a glass cockpit? Is there a stability system on this aircraft? How is the performance/fuel burn?

Thanks for any responses.

[timex]

Not a P1 but a T1, lovely aircraft (think of a twin engine Gazelle and you wont go far wrong). Analogue cockpit with a CDS dislpay for Fuel and Eng display. Fuel burn is approx 3kg per min at MAUM giving just over 2 hours use to 100 MLA.

Basic stab system on the A/C not full AFCS but nice to fly.


Shaun

[tecpilot]

You know "not the most ideal a/c" but you know nothing.

I´m sure if somebody will give you a EC135, he have to give you a type rating.

[RVDT]

There is a "search" function at the top of the page.

But if thats too much try here - EC135 Search Result. (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/189945-ec135.html) The thread was started about 8 years ago.

[Old Skool]

I fly the P1, the instruments are as described above, it doesn't have any pitch or roll sas, only yaw sas. It is smooth in still air but a bumpy ride during the day when the thermals get going. The P2 with the pitch and roll is a whole other aircraft, much nicer to fly.
The fuel system is in Kgs on ours and we plan for around 200Kgs per hour. The two small tanks hold 49kgs and 45kgs and the main tank holds 420 / 440 depending on how much fuel you are prepared to spill. It also has a nasty habit of spitting fuel all over you no matter how slowly you fuel...dirty girl.

[Brilliant Stuff]

We find refuelling our T2 with a slight downhill slope is easy to fuel and I have not had any blowback.

[RVDT]

SB EC135-28-005
All models S/N 0005 up to and including 0400.

During an inspection on a helicopter it was found that the hook and pile tape (Velcro) for tank attachment to the floor had become partly detached. As a consequence this can lead to a reduction in the effective usable tank volume or to a longer refuelling time (read blowback) being necessary for the filling of the tank to its full capacity.

Procedure: Defuel and remove equipment plates and inspect ceiling of the tank. If the velcro has become detached badly, you have to remove the tank, replace the existing Velcro and fit additional as per SB.

Compliance: If it is not possible to fill the normal fuel quantity stated in Section 2 of the RFM, or it takes longer than it used to, to completely fill to the full quantity in the tank, the attachments of the tank lower shell are to be inspected at the next removal of the equipment plates.

Manpower: Fitting of each hook and pile tape 0.5 man hours. (There are 25 of them - 12.5 hours) Strangely no mention of the man hours required to remove each tank so you can change them and subsequent leak check. This requires removal of the floor sections! At a guess this would be a 3-4 dayer.

I think a lawyer must write these SB's. Too bad if you if you have time against you and need all the fuel available.

The blowback is the air pockets formed around where the tank has become detached.


More info: One of the reasons for this and other mods subsequent to SN 249 were issues between pre-Production and Production aircraft. Some fuel capacity was lost due to a few subtleties and certain customers made a point of it!

[Old Skool]

Well I'll be, that sounds just like our problem, we all just figured that's how the EC was. I guess our tech has some work ahead of him.

[RVDT]

Another strange one on the 135.

Have a look at the screws that attach the SEMA's (Smart Electro Mechanical Actuator) to the flight control runs. The number of SEMA's fitted varies with VFR SAS/IFR Autopilot configuration.

According to type certificate requirements they should have 2 methods of locking.

Part 27
(a) Each removable bolt, screw, nut, pin, or other fastener whose loss could jeopardize the safe operation of the rotorcraft must incorporate two separate locking devices. The fastener and its locking devices may not be adversely affected by the environmental conditions associated with the particular installation. The 135 clearly does not.

The 155 which uses the same or similar actuator clearly does as the attaching screws are cross drilled and wire locked.

Am I missing something? Does it mean that ONE fastener can fall out and its OK because you have three left?

There were issues recently where the fasteners used were too long. Screws were torqued OK but they had bottomed out in the thread allowing play in the control run.

see ASB EC135-22A-015 - Applicable ALL models.

[eurocopter beans]

RVDT,

Just out of interest are you a pilot or engineer?, you seem to know a lot of very technical info on the 135, is this info necessary for a pilot, i ask because i fly the P2 and T2 but have nowhere near the in depth knowledg of sema screws etc.

[RVDT]

Beans,

Both! :cool:

[eurocopter beans]

Cool, were you a technician who decided to train to be a pilot or the opposite? I know a few techs who became pilots but i know of no pilots who decided that wanted to be techs!

[semirigid rotor]

Phoinix, to go back too your point about the vertical display, what ECD are talking about is the VSI to everyone else. On the 135 with the FCDS the VSI is not a pitot static instrument, but gets its information from an accelerometer in the AHRS.
So if there is a discrepency between the two VSI's; on the RCU you need to switch to the AHRS you think is correct, NOT switch the ADC.
The problem with that of course, is that you will have a GYRO caption on the CAD if you switch to 1 or gyro and P&R SAS captions if you switch to 2.:(

[RVDT]

quote ECD Data -

Attitude and Heading Reference Unit (AHRU)

The Attitude and Heading Reference Units AHRU 1 and 2 (Attitude and Heading Reference Units 1 and 2) use sensors to measure the primary reference flight data such as: attitude, rotational speed, (angular speed or turn rate) and acceleration values for linear acceleration of the helicopter. This data is provided across an ARINC 429 Bus for processing in electronic flight control display equipment and the autopilot computer.
The AHRUs also supply data for the inertial baro-anemometric vertical speed, as set by the ADC Air Data Computer, i.e. the measured data must be sent by the (ADC Air Data Computer) to the AHRUs.
Each AHRU consists of one inertial platform with 3 fibre optic gyros and a miniature silicon accelerometer.

Allowing for the translation to English of course!

It only performs the "I" part of the IVSI function, carried out by the vertical acceleration pump in an analogue instrument.

I don't think there is an annunciation of discrepancy between the VSI's.

I'm sticking to my original post.

[TheVelvetGlove]

I guess there aren't too many of the older P1's around, at least not in the US.

Does anyone have a picture of a panel for the old P1 with analog gauges? I might be flying one soon, and have had no luck finding anything on the web.

As far as yaw SAS goes, I have only flown the 412 and the older S-76A with ASCS... what is the benefit of just having yaw SAS if you don't have any other channels? Just seems like an odd idea to me.

[eurocopter beans]

Basic dispatch is with yaw sas fitted, if you fly for a few minutes over100kts without it you will see why... a dutch roll develops that can gets sickening.

[EC135CAPTAIN]

Any info about betteruse of Trim Release Button??, as I have been told to use it only twice on each fly, and in other Helicopters It´s neccesary to use iit frequently.Thanks in advance.

[RVDT]

Easiest analogy..............

TRIM REL - "NOT" pushed - H500, push the stick around, reduce trim force with 4-way Trim switch.

TRIM REL - pushed - Bell 206, with friction off, push stick around, but don't let it go.

Depending on whether you have Yaw SAS, Yaw SAS P&R SAS, or Autopilot it does vary only slightly although it would/should be transparent to the operator.

In simple terms the series actuators need something to push "against" otherwise the cyclic would move and nothing else would happen. The cyclic has to be held by the force trim clutch's.

Each to their own, but I push the T/R when landing and taking off and mostly during the hover. If you have A/P ON without upper modes engaged you can push the button, set the desired attitude and release. Rinse, repeat as desired. If you have upper modes except NAV modes engaged the 4-way TRIM will steer the heading bug left or right or change ALT, A/S, or VSI as appropriate. To release upper modes you must push the A/P DECOUPLE button on the side of the grip. You may get a DECOUPLE and Master Caution depending on the software in the CAD.

Try not to push the SAS DCPL (decouple) that turns everything off. To reengage you must push the P&R // YAW RST Left, Right and Up to get it back. You might upset the Pax if you are at high speed!

[Shawn Coyle]

The H500 doesn't have a trim release, only a 4 way beeper switch.
The Bell 206 series don't normally have a trim release at all. The OH-58 does have a trim release.

[RVDT]

analogy- a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based.

[Brilliant Stuff]

I have been flying the 135 for 3 years and I don't think I use the Trim Release button at all only ever the collie hat, though my unconscious might do something different. On the SA365 I used to use the Trim Release button all the time but on the 135 it just makes it to floppy for my taste.

I was told though to use the T/R during autorotation in order to gain the 75kts quickly.

[turboshaft]

Does anyone have a picture of a panel for the old P1 with analog gauges?
Here you go.

http://www.turboshaft.com/images/ec135_i-panel_old_.jpg

[MightyGem]

I have been flying the 135 for 3 years and I don't think I use the Trim Release button at all only ever the collie hat,
I use it all the time, everytime I move the cyclic.

[TheVelvetGlove]

Hey Turboshaft- thanks for the pic! :ok:

[WSPS]

Hi everyone,

very interesting thread we have here. Good to hear some experience from the rest of you 135 drivers. :ok:


While it does seem a fairly capable IFR tool (apart from speed/endurance) it does seem to be vulnerable in icing like all the rest of the small twins. :hmm:


Do any of you guys have some experience with icing in the 135 then? How well does it cope when you cannot descend/climb any more? :E


As always - any info is greatly appreciated!

Cheers

WSPS

[Phoinix]

Another question, to continue the 135 topic. I was scrolling down the VEMD's system status page the other day and came up with the TOT.T (trim) line in °C. The value was around 100°C roughly on both sides, but i could not find any explanation from Training Manual. What is this TOT trim?


Regards, Jure

[RVDT]

Phoinix,

Both brands TM and PW have methods of trimming the TOT and Torque (Q).

The TOT thermocouples on the engine in both cases do not actually output the true value of the MGT/TOT/EGT (delete as required). When the engine is run in the test cell the real TOT is measured and the "trim" value is recorded to make the correction required.

The same applies to the torquemeter shaft. The "datum" and "slope" are compensated. Additionally the torquemeter shaft has a temperature compensation input as well in real time from one of the magnetic pickups which has a temp sensor inside it. (At least on the PW for sure).

The TM uses a "confirmation box" for each value and the PW uses data which is in memory in the Data Collection Unit. All of these units are part of the turbomachine module. They must stay with it. If the modules are changed they must be adjusted in the case of the TM or have the data loaded on the PW.

You will also find the values on the module data plate.

The reason this data is in the STATUS page is to verify that the information is being read correctly and the required values exist. Remember that the VEMD is responsible for determining the display of limits electronically. If BOTH VEMD lanes fail you will have analog data in the CAD. Corrected Q in the PW case and Delta N1 for the TM. These values come direct from the FADEC.

[Phoinix]

So this TOT.T is the preset value of TOT that corrects the measured TOT to the real value. Is the TOT.T constant to all measurements, or does it vary according to measured TOT?

This trim is something that is constant to all P&W 206B's?

Thank you RVDT, you are a true EC135 guru.

[RVDT]

Phoinix,

The TOT.T value I assume could be linear then again it may not be!

It is different between each turbomachinery module. That is why the DCU or confirmation box needs to stay with the turbomachinery module. This data is loaded into the EECU/FADEC at power up.

The STATUS PAGE is for maintenance practice so that you can easily determine that the values have been loaded. It is also used for certain rigging functions.

[TheVelvetGlove]

Does anybody have a copy of a P1 Flight Manual in pdf format? I'll find something I can trade you for it! Thanks!

[fkelly]

Is a DPIFR EC135 a realistic prospect for N. Europe offshore ops? I would have thought the disposable weight would be too low to make it viable. Anyone with any hard figures out there?

[Helipilot1982]

It would require wheels for a start!!!

[fkelly]

Err...why's that then? I don't remember the 212 having wheels.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Because Aberdeen would have us believe only real helicopters have wheels.:}:}:}

[Fly_For_Fun]

In the army, wheeled helicopters were for delivering "tea and buns" and skids for "death and destruction"......then the Apache came along!:cool:

[rufus.t.firefly]

See the following article on Rotorhub this week

Bond buy EC135 for wind farm servicing missions | Shephard Group (http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/1375/bond-buy-ec135-for-wind-farm-servicing-missions/)

Surely the EC135 mentioned will need to be in "Offshore fit" to perform this sort of role . Note that it will be fitted with a hoist for transfer of personnel etc , does this require approvals from the CAA inorder to perform winching Ops ? Or can it just be done ?

Thought civilian winching was frowned upon in the UK unless its by a Civvy SAR or military machine.....

[Droopy]

135T2 will do OEI HOGE ISA 2 min rating at around 2600-2650kg which would be feasible depending on the empty weight. What would an offshore 135 weigh?

[zorab64]

Educated guess at an empty weight of 1860kg, calculated from SPIFR with other (but similar weight) kit in place of left seat PFD/ND screens & second sticks.

What's a winch & floats? Say 140kg?, plus 200kg for pilots & kit - so 2200 for cash ZFW. 1:30 to 1:45 endurance from arrival at first winch job, if Droopy's calculations are OK'd by CAA! :ok:

[Shawn Coyle]

Can someone please pm me to discuss how the autotrim in the EC-135 works?
Either that or point me to somewhere that describes how it works?

[212man]

Sent to PM

[Brilliant Stuff]

Shawn it's all witch craft.:}

Rotordompteur is the man with the knowledge in regards to operating 135 on windturbines.

[RVDT]

My read.................A/TRIM

It trims the cyclic. Unlike older autopilots which just referenced themselves via the actuators against the force trim brakes until the actuators saturated (ran out of movement) the APM 2000 will reposition the cyclic via the Trim Actuators (which have an RVDT inside to tell the AP where they are.:p)

The Trim Actuators (parallel actuator) when in SAS/AP-SAS will re-trim the cyclic via the 4 way beep switch or release while centreing the EHA's and SEMA's when you push the FTR. When in UPPER modes of the AP the 4 way trim will change the coupled modes, L/R for HEADING, Fore/Aft (Up/Down?) for ALT, IAS, V/S as appropriate and the AP will re-trim as/if required. The A/TRIM warning serves also to tell you that there is something amiss with the upper modes and the AP is not AP - ing and you should fly it hands on.

It is not very noticeable. Most prevalent trim movement is if you couple ALT and change a big chunk of power. You will see the cyclic move. GA will make it move a fair bit as well depending on software and speed at the time.

The AP in the 135 is a bit of a mess in some ways. The SEMA's (series actuator) were installed because the EHA's (yet another series actuator) are prone to drifting over time. So you have the "basic" SAS with analog computer and EHA's then Autopilot over the top also doing SAS at a better job with EHA's with analog SAS as redundancy and then Autopilot UPPER modes with SEMA's.

SEMA - Smart Electro Mechanical Actuator
EHA - Electro Hydraulic Actuator

When you "decouple" the cyclic is always in a "trimmed" position. Saves you having to keep an eye on the "galvanometers" to see if they are reaching the stops and having to centre them by pushing the FT release.

The YAW "trim" is indicated on the PFD. Push the corresponding pedal! Takes a while to get used to as the aircraft flies left hand down and about half a ball out of trim in the cruise. Thats why your STBY AH is in the panel on a funny angle!

P.S. WTF is a BACON Relay?

[Lt.Fubar]

P.S. WTF is a BACON Relay?Isn't that a part of the most complex equipment of every aircraft ? Relay between the airframe and 'labyrinthus membranaceus' . Latin name: 'nates' ?

You know... the thing you sit on.

[Bladecrack]

Thats why your STBY AH is in the panel on a funny angle!

RVDT,

So there is a reason for it after all! I had been wondering why they all seemed to be squinty.. :O

[Shawn Coyle]

Thanks for the info on autotrim. From what I can gather it only works if the attitude mode and autopilot is engaged? Is that correct?
What happens in the cruise if the pilot pushes and holds the stick away from the initial 'trim' posiition?

[Droopy]

Shawn, yes to the first question. To the second:- at speed it acts just like any other system in that the attitude and cyclic will return to datum as long as the trim release or beep trim have not been used. Below 40kt however the datum effectively follows cyclic displacement without you having to re-trim. It is however 18 months since I was current so would stand corrected.

[RVDT]

Shawn,

1st - As long as the autopilot is ON you are in ATT mode. OFF you are in analog SAS. The A/TRIM switch and the light within and WARNING indication are to advise of a problem within the A/P.

2nd - If you push the stick it will NOT automatically trim. Let go of the stick and it will go back to the previous attitude. If you push the stick and press FTR or TRIM via the 4 way switch it will trim accordingly. In UPPER mode if you OVERRIDE ALT,IAS,GA,V/S,ALT.A,G/S or LOC you will get a warning indication on the PFD caption for the respective mode.

Now there are a few pitfalls, Google G-SPAU and G-IWRC accidents.

One thing I am not so sure of is the removal of the GONG and warning indication with A/P DECOUPLE in the latest software version. It served 2 purposes, it let you know if the A/P decoupled intentionally or NOT!

The issue with G-SPAU has been addressed in later software as the bug does not default to "N" any longer on startup.

A small point but the "HEADING" control should be on the ICP with a knob to turn it and push the knob to centre it. Same as the COURSE button. The AP controller should just have an engage pushbutton for heading - a la A109.

As I said before the AP on the 135 is a bit of a kludge.

Wikipedia - A kludge (alternately, kluge[1]) is a clumsy or inelegant solution to a problem or difficulty. In engineering, a kludge is a workaround, typically using unrelated parts cobbled together. Especially in computer programs, a kludge is often used to fix an unanticipated problem in an earlier kludge; this is essentially a kind of cruft. A kludge is an ad hoc engineering solution, inelegant in principle but possibly elegantly pragmatic, from klug [german] meaning clever.

Too many little things to be effected by heat, vibration etc etc..................
Although it is getting better slowly.

Bladecrack - the squint in the FCDS is in the AHRU!

[212man]

Shawn,
I'm sure RVDT will correct me if I'm wrong, but making the assumption the EC-155 and EC-135 systems are essentially similar when in basic ATT mode (ignoring Upper Mode engagement) I think you are possibly misinterpreting the meaning of Auto Trim. The Auto Trim basically means the AP is operating in Attitude mode, and that Auto-trimming will take place to ensure continuous series actuator (SEMA) centralisation, and control movement to maintain Attitude datums - particularly noticeable with the heading holding (not HDG Hold.)

There are two basic modes of operation - Follow up trim, which ECF call 'Tactical Mode' and a conventional mode, which ECF call 'cruise mode.'

The follow up trim operates below 40 KIAS, and allows the pilot to push against the cyclic and the AP will re-datum to the new attitude. There is obviously hysteresis built into the transition, such that on departure the AP will have reverted to cruise mode BY 40 KIAS, and on deceleration the AP starts to transition back to 'Tac' mode at 40 KIAS and has fully reverted BY 30 KIAS, to give a seamless feel to the pilot. In 'Tac' mode it's a bit like the SFENA system found on some Bell 212s.

In 'tac' mode the AP respects heading hold at all times (if the pedal micro-switches are released) whereas in cruise mode it is roll dependant, and varies between heading hold and turn co-ordination. In cruise mode the cyclic behaves as with any other ATT system, when displaced.

The Cyclic and Yaw Auto Trim functions can be de-selected independantly using the APMS (Auto Pilot Mode Select) panel, which could be quite useful in the event of a trim runwaway - the pilot can retain the remaining AP functions whilst deselecting the relevant channel. (By comparison, if I have a yaw trim problem in the S-92 and deselect it, the whol AFCS goes into SAS mode and I have no coupled functions at all. In the 155, I could take out Yaw A.Trim and keep ALT, IAS and NAV coupling and just use my feet to keep trimmed in yaw. Anyway, don't get me started.....)

With the 155, the transition during the departure is programed to not only adopt cruise mode, but to alter the nose down attitude to that required for a Vy climb - so the pilot sets 10 degrees nose down in the hover, the AP trims to that datum, the aircraft accelerates and as it passes 40 KIAS the nose starts to rise and adopts an 80 KIAS climb attitude. I understand it's part of an intention ECF had for a fully automated Cat A take off. Still requires a bit of cyclic beep in roll, though, otherwise you end up in a climbing turn!

I sincerely hope that this is not 'duff gen' in relation to the 135, and should it prove so I will delete the relevant portions- the limited 135 info I have, though, (conversion notes from a large UK onshore operator) suggests the systems are near identical.

[Shawn Coyle]

Thanks guys - it's as I expected. I just wanted to make sure. I'll read the two accident reports with interest!

[RVDT]

Well flog me with a warm lettuce...................... (P.Keating one time Prime Minister of Australia.)

As 212 man sez.......................

The 135 does Auto Trim (follow up) below 40 knots. Just tried it. It is not very fast but works fine.

The RFM Supplement doesn't mention it and it is not in the AMM Systems Description. Although I am sure it is in the MM for the AP.

There is evidently an APM 2000 Pilot's Manual for the EC135. Never seen one and it does mention in the RFM Supplement that "Section 4.2 Operation - The sequence of AFCS mode shown within is not mandatory." :confused:

[212man]

You might want to go back to your TRTO and suggest they expand the detail in their briefings and ground school notes! It's a pretty fundamental aspect of the aircraft's handling :ok:

[RVDT]

In the USA? What's a type rating?

Was pretty much skimmed over on the frame course in Donauworth as well.

I will enquire with SAGEM on getting an APM 2000 Operators manual and find out whether it is "approved" documentation.

[Shawn Coyle]

RVDT:
If you are able to get a copy of this manual, and the terms permit it, could you post it where others can get it?

[212man]

RVDT, I don't think you will find an operator's manual, as the functionality is installation specific. There is, however, a CMM ( Componant Maintenance Manual) which should be part of the maintenance manual CD that comes with the aircraft. Also, the SDS should add some meat.

[RVDT]

Shawn, 212 man,

I have put in a request to SAGEM and going on past experience should have a reply within 6 months. :rolleyes:

212,

I have dredged the SDS and it is very vague about the A/TRIM function. It is referred to variously between Attitude Trim and Automatic Trim depending on which document you are reading. No mention of the change in mode with speed as quoted by 212 man although it is there. I think it is a case of "who knew?"

As there is nothing in the published documentation that is required to operate and maintain the thing, how would you?

There is no Chapter 22 in the EC135 ECMM. There is an SDS description in the AMM but is very vague and I can't find anything about it.

The RFM Supplement 9.2-48 OPERATION 4.2.2 Takeoff and Climbout

NOTE: If unsymmetrical stick forces occur during hover, press FTR switch briefly.

This is the way I have been operating it for ~250 hours.

Might drop a line to my maulwürfe in ECD. :p

[eurocopter beans]

Quick Question: If i want to fly the aircraft without anycyclic augmentation system of follow trim...basically the same as with the FTR permanently depressed, what cb do i pull and is there any rule against it?...for instructional reasons before you ask!!

[RVDT]

i.e You mean if the FTR switch was stuck "closed".

You cannot simulate this as the clutches require electrical power to open. If the switch was stuck closed which is highly unlikely as there are two sets of contacts both of which would have to be stuck.

Hardly a difficult situation. Like flying a B206 - yawn.

"If" it did happen - Pull CB "ATT TRIM REL" Overhead panel 12VE Breaker 7CC 1 Amp driven off PP10E Bus.

Is it illegal - most probably.