Backtracking?

[A Nonny Mouse]

As an ATCO I can vouch for the fact that Pointer is a true gentleman:)

The fact that he bribed me many moons ago with Belgian chocolates on a cold dark London City night has nothing to do with it...........

VLM isn't the same without you Pointer, but then standards started slipping when they started hiring British pilots who do not understand the phrase "Expedite your Backtrack"
:rolleyes:

[alfalfa]

Whats wrong with backtracking at a safe speed????

[A Nonny Mouse]

I am all for safety, I am just puzzled why one group of pilots manages to backtrack at a certain safe speed (never seen an incident) and the other group can only manage a third of that speed safely.:p

Even stranger is 2 British Airways (at least they like to think they are) 146s backtracking in trail, one nips off down the runway to vacate, expediting as they confirmed they would before being given clearance on, the other crew (also confirmed before entering that they could expedite) crawl along behind, and when asked again to expedite answers "we are expediting!!!!":{ :{ :{

Maybe it is my fault, and I should request their maximum backtrack speed before clearing them on.

Pointer you always managed good speed - where you being unsafe? :E

[Pointer]

So with all the Fathering you changed "completely"? Good to hear from you again

haha that was a long time ago

No was never Unsafe, and if i thought that i could not realy give an expedite.. was allways the gentelman to admit and thus held position..

Pointer :E

[fireflybob]

A Nonny Mouse, even as a pilot I am with you on this one. Yes, sometimes there are special occasions where you cannot "expedite" but you say so BEFORE accepting such a clearance/instruction.

I can understand sticking to a "normal" taxi speed on taxiways et. especially near hazards etc but, after all, we do actually take off on runways at speeds well in excess of taxi speeds!

The other one which makes my blood pressure rise a bit are those who line up (having received take off clearance) and then proceed to occupy the runway stationary for the next 30 seconds, presumably whilst they administer the last rights. Nothwithstanding "icing" conditions and the requirement for a static run, surely when one takes the runway one should be ready to depart without undue delay?

[dhc83driver]

As one of the drivers of the 146`s in the pretend red white and blue, a couple of points. These are my own veiws and i`m sure others from my outfit will disagree.

first on landing on 10 at max weight, brakes now 600 degrees. we wizz round to back track, we are going pretty quick, (notice the spoilers still up ) only to be asked to expidite because the VLM behind has been doing warp factor 9 up behind us all down the approach and is now very close behind, ok fair enough min runway occupancy, we are trying our best with hot brakes so why then start asking us to expedite again because traffic is on short final! we can see it, we are looking straight at it! so we screech off the 90 turn with the paxs pressed against the cabin wall.

Second asked to backtrack for 28 or to the loop, with 30min turn arounds and hot brakes they may not cool all the way down before we go again so we have to be carefull about brake temp befour departure. a 70mph dash down the runway to turn around tends to heat them up a bit (twice the speed 4 times the energy) i`ve been going 50kts indicated and been asked to expedite how fast do you want us to go its like a rejected takeoff.

i`m all for min runway occupancy but sometimes we are doing our best, if we are light, had a long turn around we can and will wizz along at vlm speeds, but we are not a t-prop with disc / reverse and all we have to stop are those four lumps of carbon.

one more thing on lcy is "be ready for an immediate takeoff" can anyone do this? as i think we all have to do a standing start and wind the hairdryers up.

we all know about the high rate of movements at lcy, we do are best to accomadate. You may not of seen an incident but i`d rarther have a few go arounds than an aircraft in the drink pulling into the loop at 40 kts with a brake failure.

[A Nonny Mouse]

I didn't mean to offend anyone (least of all any BA pilots):O

I appreciate that brake temps are a problem, once saw a Aer Fungus 146 whiz down the runway for one of my colleagues in the days before the loop. He overheated the brakes, and because there were 3 packed in on final, we had 3 go-arounds in quick succesion whilst he limped off the runway.

The only thing that still puzzles me is why one BA 146 can be fairly expeditious whilst another can't (both with fairly identical turn around times and performance on previous landing - and I would imagine both with similar payloads) :confused: :confused:

As for rolling imediately, my understanding was that analogue 146s can't, but RJs can (don't they have fadecs which spot spool up problems quickly?). More times than I can mention Swiss and Lufthansa RJs have taken it on the roll for me. I would never ask BA to, as I have been stung too many times.

Check the books, if asked "are you ready immediate" pilots should only accept if they can line up (or turn at the end) and roll without stopping. As I have said, I have been stung too many times by BA saying yes, then pausing for 45 seconds thought before going brakes off.

On that subject, when lined up on 10, and told to "be ready immediate when the backtracking a/c vacates", why does it take another 30 seconds to roll when cleared for "immediate takeoff" as the backtracking a/c finally clears the runway (we can't assume as the yanks do - we have to wait until the lander is completely clear before giving clearance). Is it not possible to start spooling up as you see the lander turn left, and be ready to roll 15 seconds later as he is clear?

I must reiterate though, I never hold it against anyone for turning down an offer of expedition for the sake of safety. I just get p*ssed off with those who accept, then dither ;)

Pointer: What's in a name?

I see you're flying 737s, bet they aren't as much fun as the 50s (especially on a tight visual):D :D :D

[unwiseowl]

I can't backtrack at more than 30 knots because I'll have to explain why the "spy in the cab" caught me taxiing too fast. Sorry, like to help...

[dhc83driver]

perf on the rj100, we do a flap 30 or flap 33 departure at or near to RTOW as city is a cat C airport and we are always within 2 ton of RTOW (we use reduced thrust) we have to do standing start. takes about 15 secs for the fadecs to spool em up.


Brake temps on landing can differ alot dependant on payload, busy flight with a bit on tankered fuel will be 40ton an empty positioning flight will be around 28ton so quite a difference.

We also have big brother on our rj`s so every flight is monitored and we get a phone call for anything outside sop, eg taxi to fast, we can`t even release the brakes untill the flaps are set :mad: so we are now sat waiting as they trundle out.

I love flying out out of HMS Lcy its the most fun since plymouth, the way the clearence come most times is "enter backtrack vacate at k hold at m" then you enter start to move followed by "expedite landing traffic 4 miles" by that point we are on the runway so no choice, engines up to 65% and screech off at the end.

[False Capture]

unwiseowl & dhc83driver,

The 'spy in the cab' doesn't record fast taxy speeds.

Taxying without the flaps set to atleast 18 degrees isn't a SESMA so long as the wheel speed is less than 7 knotts. If this was the case every time you were pulled forward by a tug you'd achieve another event.

The reason we use a standing start for all take-offs when within 2 tons of RTOW is to account for differences in piloting technique on performance critical take-offs. BACX in all its wisedom has come up with a blanket rule to cover for the lowest common denominator, therefore, all BACX RJs departing LCY have to perform standing starts. In reality, the performance allows for rolling starts at LCY.

[Pointer]

Ha ha this is fun, a bit of ranting about HMS Lcy, has been a few years now but still remember the good fun there.

Yes doing a thight Visual makes my co-pilot squirme in the -800 i fly nowadays. :E

It did give me the skill i posses these days, wish i could come and play some day... :ugh:

Must go and set off to Canary's ... no not the wharf but the island...


:ok: Regards, Pointer
Former HMS Lcy Aviator

[A Nonny Mouse]

As with pilots, all ATCOs are different, some good, some less good.

I personally would not give anyone runway entery clearance and then expect a speedy backtrack unless I had first enquired of the pilot whether he is willing to deliver.

As I said, it is better to establish the facts before the metal is on the runway.

Again, what there is no excuse for (but happens regularly) is the pilot giving the affirm and then dawdling.:mad:

It has to be said that the majority of the time both Pilots and ATCOs play the game at city - the 32+ movements per hour on a single frequency with bugger all concrete to park/taxi on is testament to this fact.

Also, where else could one observe such interesting landings in marginal weather (such as an Irish 146 hurtling down the runway on its nose gear, with the wings in the air waggling from side to side). You must all be mad

Well done all, keep it up:D :D

[False Capture]

Pointer,
Would that be the A380-800?

[AlanM]

As with pilots, all ATCOs are different, some good, some less good.

Ahhh - but you are the ace of base, are you not?!!?!? :):ok:

[Engine overtemp]

False Capture

The 'spy in the cab' doesn't record fast taxy speeds.

It might not with your operator but it does with ours!:ugh:

[fmgc]

The 'spy in the cab' doesn't record fast taxy speeds.

Rubbish

[StygerTim]

So what happens when the A318s start operating ?

[L337]

One man's dawdle, is another man's expedite.

Or is it vice-verca?

[A Nonny Mouse]

Alan: As you know, if I really was any good at it, I would be with you big boyz at Thames:rolleyes:

As I am sh*t, I will do my best to emulate TCs finest controlling, and try not to let the side down............

As I said, some are good, some not so good :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{

[AlanM]

You are too good to be a Thames Waster fella.

Keep up the good work! :) (But stopping picking on British 146 crews...... we will get the complaints!!)

[Pointer]

Well Nonny, i think the Pilots in their 146's are a bit peculliar about their brakes.... something to do with Hot brakes ?? Possibly the one that was slowspediting had to use his or her brakes on landing a tad over regular? therefore was afraid to reheat them on an expedite B/T... and there fore having to wait before T/O so they cooled..?

It is just a senario... could be just .... Anything.

Pointer :E

Ehh False Capture... read rev. posting above that one... and i believe there is only one -800 isn't it? and no its not the Airbus...

[A Nonny Mouse]

Good british design 146 brakes!

I must say that every time Lufthansa land they lock up their brakes and come to a standstill halfway down the runway (good on 10, not so good on 28) and still manage an expeditious backtrack 30 minutes later (in fact on two occasions, they have used so much power pulling onto the runway at 'C' that they have blown stairs away from a/c parked on stand 2/3 - but that's another story)

I appologise to all BA crews, I love you all;) If it weren't for you my job would be too straight forward and boring:p

Pointer: just practice your rudder hardover recovery skills. Don't forget, not everyone builds aircraft like the Dutch or British (ones which last for years). Maybe when we get the Scarebus you can get a job with a posh airline flying big planes into city
:p :p :p

[Pointer]

Sorry Nonny,

Am just sitting out my time until i get the call from Fragrant harbour. It will be some time before i get back to the City... then again you never know... :confused:

Having fun now with Globespan. and not to worry, the NG's have redesigned rudders ;)

Pointer :E

[dhc83driver]

Luftansa can do that when they have no pax :D , and dont they fly the smaller rj85 to city? not to worry there getting all out decent airplanes now anyway with swiss so i`m sure its all academic!.

Still love flying to city, i`ll be the one doing warp factor 9 on backtrack now and onto stand on two wheels, hope it helps := , shame us bhx lot don`t get to visit as much as the works gone up to edi.

HMS Lcy is still more fun than working for a living tho

we can always use our new tail arresting system to stop, ooppps we`ve done than already,
;) ;)

[West Coast]

Don't know if its between pilots/acft of the same airline. If however its between same aircraft but different airlines it might be explained by FOQA monitoring at one but not the other. The last thing you need is a call from the CP wanting to know why you were taxiing at 50 Kts.

[A Nonny Mouse]

If you can land and depart on a clear runway at over 100 kts, why can't you taxi down it at 40 kts (as most airlines manage)?

Maybe this is a stupid question, I wait to be flamed, but surely you could justify this to the CP?:confused: :confused: :confused:

[L337]

I think coz pilots have shot off the end of the runway having got it badly wrong. Seen it done in the wet. Closed the airport, and he had to be pulled out the mud.

Or you boil the brakes, turn around, reject, now brakes not working, shoot off the other end.

Either way, Is it worth the 10 seconds saved?

[BOAC]

As fmcg says, the monitoring system with which I am familiar DOES record 'excessive' taxi speeds, but in most airlines the 'inquisition' is conducted by a fellow pilot and providing the explanation is reasonable, ie back-tracking/expedite, there is not a problem. 38kts along the taxyway at LGW however..................:D

[18-Wheeler]

If you can land and depart on a clear runway at over 100 kts, why can't you taxi down it at 40 kts (as most airlines manage)?

747's are limited to 30kts groundspeed, and the smarter airlines also limit them to 20kts when over 320 tonnes.

30kts in a 747 looks very slow from outside.

[overeasy]

As I am sure any pilot will tell you, LCY is one of the more demanding airports to operate in/out of. The controllers are generally very good and helpful but I have been asked if 'I really needed to use all the runway' !! Also 'could I maintain 160kts to 4 miles' !!! Both of these scenarios show a fundamental lack of understanding of what is required from an aircraft performance point of view to operate at LCY particularly at max landing/takeoff weight. Maybe other aircraft types can achieve 160 to 4 but we cannot. If we are doing a max weight departure we are not going to go blasting off down the runway to backtrack for a split-arse turn at the end primarily because if we do have to reject the takeoff then you may well be recovering what is left of us from the dock. It all comes down to brake energy. There have been scenarios of crews that have rejected a takeoff, gone back for another go before the brake holdover time is achieved, had to reject again and disappeared of the end of runways far less restrictive than LCY. Landing at heathrow neither of those requests would be a problem. As I said in my experience of operating to LCY the controllers have been good, but a little mutual understanding from crews of what ATC are trying to achieve and form ATC of what the crews are trying to achieve I think would help all.

:O :O

[safetypee]

Spot on overeasy. LCY has the potential to be a most unforgiving airport if errors are made.
We too easily forget past problems:- slippery runway due to lack of grooves or blocked contaminated grooving, long landings with ‘excursions’ into the old turnround zones, and the operator who stopped on the concrete but was unable to exit as the nose wheel would have been on the grass.

Don’t reduce any of the margins, whether during taxi, take off, or approach. The desire to save time and hence the need for speed is a killer, don’t be tempted.
Do not takeoff downwind; apart from performance issues what about the noise limits? Similarly for reduced thrust, just because you can does not mean that it is always sensible to do so. Land within the designated distance and use brakes – there is only one setting until you are assured of stopping – maximum.

[Pointer]

Well if you safety consious people would read the threath correctly; Nonny did not want you to compromise your safety margin; but if you agree on the condition to "Expedite" you should be in a position to expedite and thus do so; if you can't live up to your "promise" then stay put and wait your turn, Accepting a conditional clearance and not wanting to follow the condition... that is compromising someone elses safety margin...

[Kak Klaxon]

Nonny, why not get together with the fleet manager on the RJ and get something sorted about your back track problem, I am sure that you must have some kind of ATC/customer meetings.

[alf5071h]

Isn’t the safety point here that crews should not make promises that could degrade safety? This in turn raises the question as to what ‘Expedite’ actually means; do ATC and crews have the same understanding. The only examples of ‘Expedite’ that I could find in CAP 413 relate to climb/descent which implies the best possible rate – a characteristic of aircraft performance and the safety environment. If this interpretation is applied to ground operations, then the main characteristic is crew judgement as to what is safe, to remain within aircraft limits and the ground situation; the latter depends on the airfield / runway. This line of thought suggest that requests to ‘Expedite’ at LCY either in the air, taxing, or during take off should be used with great caution, and possibly not at all as the human desire to help others often overcomes the self control required for safety.

The thread started, if I interpret it correctly, with an observation of differences in taxing speed; that alone should raise safety concerns especially at LCY. Care must be taken not to degrade the good safety record at a difficult airport either by hasty crew action or less thoughtful ATC requests.
“We all try to help everyone else to have our own accident.”

[AlanM]

You should never be instructed to do any speed inside 6dme at LCY.

However, Overeasy, you say you were "asked" to maintain that speed. You were asked if you could - not instructed to do so. I don't know what you fly or who asked you, but some pilots DO 200kts until 5 miles of there own volition. I trust you said "no" and that was the end of the matter?

As for visits.... the number of visitors I have known by LCY operating pilots to Thames Radar either since we were at LHR tower or now at LTCC is NONE. Simple as that. The number of Fam flights we get offered is minimal (I went to MAN with VLM this year though after an offer - but VLM are the only airline to allow this)

Yes, the operators should meet ATC (Twr and Radar which are two seperate units) - anyone want to arrange a date?

The fact is of course that LCY is becoming busier and busier at the peak times. This means that there will be less LAM releases saving crews 45 track miles and more traffic orbitting at SPEAR and LYDD.

Despite what you may think, ATCOs do worry about safety, but we are also paid to shift as much traffic as possible for the airport authority. If you are asked to expedite then do so as fast as you can safely do. Every tower controller I know (and I got caught once) who offered an "are you ready immediate" or "expedite backtrack" has ended up with a go around.

We have always given extra spacing for DHC8Ds in or out depending on runway - BRT 146s should be given the same extra gap?

[ATCO Two]

Overeasy,

Check your PMs.

[Piltdown Man]

Being a regular visitor, I've always been very impressed with ATC at LCY. Only very rarely have we been asked to do something we could not. Then we've either declined or offered what we could actually do. In the former case, no offence has ever been taken and in the latter, we were pleased to help.

[PAXboy]

Non-pilot and outsider speaking.Yes, the operators should meet ATC (Twr and Radar which are two seperate units) - anyone want to arrange a date? W-h-h-a-a-a-t???

The supplier (ATC) and their clients (carriers) do not meet? Do they not meet regularly or simply not meet at all? Any supplier/client relationship that I have seen in 27 years in commerce starts at the high level and, once the ground rules (no pun intended) are established, the folks that are going to work together day-to-day then meet regularly. if it is not possible for all of them to meet (in this case) then suitable representatives will do so. That would NOT just mean the Chief Pilot.

In my line of work, I regularly talk to the folks in the 'back office' and understand what constraints they operate under. Why I go to work at a new facility (I am freelance) then I need to meet the staff there and find out how I can fit in with their routine and encourage them to fit in with mine.

Meeting people over a comms link is not the best way to understand them. I worked in telecomms for many years and I know the limitations of audio and video conferencing and that is when you have people who can talk freely and not in structured phrases and in limited time whilst under pressure!!

Am I being overly simplistic here?

[xodus]

sligtly off topic but anyone got any comments on removal of ILS 28 over the next few weeks.... consequently ILS off the air...

Just a comment but could this not have ben done during the nice cavok windcalm days of the summer....

am a 14sick driver to lcy, but in regards to expeditious backtracking generally no problem.. but driving faster less time for checks or rushed checks, not just the time aspect but the concentration...

[AlanM]

No comment on the removal of the 28 ILS with only a visual approach available (7km/1700 cloud minima) during the Autumnal thunderstorm months.

Get yr nominated diversion field ready......

[overeasy]

ATCO Two,

I have tried to send you a reply but your mail box is full apparently.

Overeasy

[ATCO Two]

Hi Overeasy,

Please try again.

Thanks.

Today the Thames Controllers on my Watch carried out SRVAs on runway 28. If you time the descent to 1500ft just right, you can keep the aircraft within controlled airspace, but obviously there is no guarantee, since descent rates vary. I wonder what the pilots think about the procedure?

[xodus]

well autumn strikes

but did anyone get caught up in this nonsense today?

[Riverboat]

If you want to see some really pathetic and
inconsiderate back-tracking, watch Thomsonfly at Coventry! It is unbelievable how long they take to clear the runway, with aircraft often holding all over the place to get in. Add their 10 nm final approaches (unwisely as it is Class G airspace), and I wonder who is the control freak at TOM who forces so much inflexibility. One can wait for ages to get into CVT when there is a TOM B737 approaching within 15 nm of it, or, in fact, when there is one taxiing out

No disrespect to the pilots; they have to follow procedures, but it is a pity that the company does not understand the needs of other users. It's as though they just live in their own world.