Heathrow Runway Questions???

[J32/41]

Just a question, Ive heard that they change the Runways about 1500 each day?
The Runway that runs along (Bath Road) where all the Hotels are ie, Travel Inn, Renaissance etc is there a set time daily when that one is in use for Landings?

Thanks

:) :) :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

When Heathrow is landing towards the west, ie a/c coming from the London direction, one runway is used for landing from early morning until 3pm and the other for take-off. At 3pm they are swapped for the rest of the day. That situation exists for one week and the next week the other runway starts the day as the landing runway until 3pm, etc, etc,

When they are approaching from the opposite direction the northerly runway, alongside the A4, is always used for landings unles there are special circumstances.

[7373]

That situation exists for one week and the next week the other runway starts the day as the landing runway until 3pm, etc, etc,

When does this week and week about change? Is it on Sunday morning or Monday?

Is there a quick rule of thumb for the landing runway. At 52 weeks in the year is the best rule simply odd weeks = 27L or something like that?

[WHBM]

Understand changeover day is Thursday, when runways used the same all day long (ie departures on 27R Mon, Tue, Wed mornings, Thursday all day, Fri, Sat, Sun afternoons, etc)

Interesting to be in the Pink Elephant car park alongside the northerly runway at 1500 and see the changeover, last one landing and already a queue for departure. I have wondered if there are ever any left in the queue for departure when the landers start (not wishing to imply that HD would ever have got it wrong !). Do they have to then trundle over to the other runway and join the queue again ?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

The changeover occurs each Monday morning, not Thursday. This week the morning landing runway is 27R (the northern runway) and at 3pm it changes to 27L. Next Monday morning (12th Sept) the landing runway will be 27L, changing to 27R at 3pm, etc. The programme can be forecast months in advance. However, a variety of things may occur to disrupt the alternation but they don't happen too often. There is also a procedure when long delays build up to use both runways for landing.

On no day does the procedure call for the same runway to be used for landings all day but situations may arise when the alternation procedure is disrupted, perhaps for days at a time, but when everything is operating normally the programme will be adhered to.

Remember that on "easterlies" - when landing from the west - the landing runway will always be 09L, except under certain conditions (runway closed, etc).

Runway alternation is no big deal and is usually achieved on time. However, do remember that a huge operation like Heathrow can have a million things go wrong, but I never recall having to send departures from one holding point to the other.

[Human Factor]

Always meant to ask, why is there no alternation between 09L and 09R?

I've taken off from 09L twice in three years due to WIP or a blocked 09R but it is an unusual occurence. I have landed on 09R a few times early in the morning (usually by asking nicely) but it's not regular.

[mocoman]

The use of 09L for departures is covered by an agreement called the 'Cranford Agreement'

Due to the close proximity of housing at the eastern end of the runway it is considered that departing traffic from 09L would create an intolerable level of noise for local residents when on Easterly operations.

Therefore, 09L is only used for arrivals unless there are exceptional circumstances; I believe one such instance happened recently following overnight work on 09R that resulted in the runway being unusable for departures for a period.

Although as the link below indicates, there may be some discussion about this.

Recent Dft letter regarding Cranford Agreement (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_foi/documents/page/dft_foi_039473.pdf)

[Gonzo]

HF,

Due to the Cranford agreement forcing us to use 09R for deps, you might have noticed that 09R has no high speed exit, and the exits that do exist are not optimally positioned. Therefore if we ever go single runway on 09R, we have to add a mile (or more) to each gap than if we were 27L/R single.

Mocoman,

Yes, some concrete hadn't set in time, and 09R was available for departure only from S6 on the south side, which off the top of my head gives maybe 1600m. Landings on 09L, departures that could take the reduced distance were crossing to the south side and departing 09R, and those that needed a longer TORA/ASDA were going off 09L.

Ground was fun, to say the least! :}

[WHBM]

HD :

Thank you for the correction of my very long-held belief about the Thursday changeover. Wonder where I got that from ? Was it ever like this ?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

WHBM...... Well, not since 1972 when the alternation procedure was introduced. I can't recall what happened prior to that, but someone's bound to know...

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

Crumbs Gonzo, you mean the turn-offs on 09L are optimised!!...?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Crumbs Gonzo, you mean the turn-offs on 09L are optimised!!...?>>

If I recall correctly, Giles, the turn-offs were OK... but some of the pilots weren't optimised!! :}

[Human Factor]

Thanks for the info.

HF

PS: Still trying to optimize my turn-offs!! (44 kts is about our max recommended for A5).

[J32/41]

Just another question guys as Iam staying at the Renaissance tomorrow night is there anyway of finding out as early as possible if they will be using the Runway outside the Hotel for landings?

Thanks

[Doors to Automatic]

With regards to the question about co-ordination of the 1500 swap-over I think I'm correct in saying that it would be unlikely that departing aircraft still left in the queue would have to be sent to the other runway as there is a lull in arrivals at this time meaning that it would be possible to get the odd departure away in between arrivals.

[mocoman]

Well, 27R is active landing this afternoon for westerlies after 1500L so it looks like you might be lucky.

(Although they may be out of sequence for some reason; must admit I was expecting 27L for westerly afternoon landings this week)

And even if it goes back to Easterlies again you'll be on the right side as well.

:ok:

[dwshimoda]

Hopefully this isn't too stupid a question, but why do they change the runways over?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Doors to automatic... You are right that any remaining departures could use the runway they were holding for. However, this occurs very rarely. The radar controllers liaise with the tower controllers and advise them which will be the last lander and the first for the other runway. In the tower, the ground controllers allow enough aircraft at the holding point of the departure runway so the last one goes just before 1500. Approach Radar positions the first lander for the "new" landing runway so that it is about 3 miles out as the last departure is going..

As I said earlier, things can happen to screw the system but under normal procedures that's what happens.

[Doors to Automatic]

dwshimoda - It's all to do with a historical agreement by the airport to limit noise to the west of the field at a village called Cranford (The "Cranford Agreement" as it is known)

[mocoman]

shurly shome mishtake ;)

(Cranford is at the EASTERN end of 09L/27R)

The runway alternation is not really noise limitation, rather more like noise management. Westerly operations alternate to give the folks of Cranford and other local environs a degree of respite during at least some of the time by ensuring that arrivals use the southern runway for half the day when on westerly ops.

I would be interested though to see comparative studies of sound levels produced by the air traffic of today compared to that in the past.

While the instantial sound level of each movement must surely have reduced, the frequency has certainly increased vastly. At what point would a reduced noise level be balanced by the increased frequency of events?

Maybe this kind of research might support a relaxation of the Cranford Agreement (which dates back to 1952 remember ;) ) for some kinds of operational techniques; short-hauls allowable departing from 09L for example.:8

[Jordan D]

Quick Question on the topic - have been at LHR early morning in the Pink Elephant car park for an early T1 dept. I noticed that aircraft that morning (far eastern arrivals, etc.) were landing on both runways - is this standard early am practice?

Jordan

[Jerricho]

Yes Jordan, it's pretty much standard

Normally at 0600 when the curfew is lifted and there is sufficient holding delay, both runways are utilised. Forgive my memory here, but if I remember correctly, if there is 10 minutes holding delay at 0600, both runways are available. If at 0630 there is still a 5 minute delay, both runways are still available, in an attempt to have minimal delay at 0700. Ideally the T4 stuff goes on the south runway.

[Gonzo]

We'll forgive you lots of things, Jer! :E

And that was all correct! :oh: :oh:

[Jerricho]

Go on then......... ask me to draw the RMAs :p ;)

[Gonzo]

You see, I wouldn't know if your drawings would be correct!...Yes, strange as it may sound there is a limit to my knowledge.....:oh:

[gordonroxburgh]

Lately there have been a lot more 09L departures post 21:30, guess there is WIP on 09R and its associated taxiways.

I'm about 4miles out, but a 747 roaring over at around 1000ft around midnight is an interesting experience.

I remember a few years ago that one weekend the T5 programme needed to have a large crane up which prevented 09L landings. The lack of turn off, as pointed out by Heathrow Director, meant delays serious built up and there were quite a few go around as crews missed their exits. A certain white pointy aircraft got itself a little short on fuel that night when someone got lost on the runway ;)

[MyData]

Slightly off topic, but related to the way that LHR swaps the runways.

I recall once departing on 27L, it was in winter and dark so perhaps around 5 or 6pm.

We were in a queue to depart, a local flight to MAN so had taxied from T1 and I had an F seat so could see down the larger part of the runway.

But then came a slight delay. The reason given for our delay by the captain was that Concorde was inbound and that those on the right would get to see her land, those on the left would see her taxi.

Sure enough in she came on what would be 09R for her. Then the queue started to move again and 27L became a departure runway once more.

My question is: did Concorde usually get special privileges - in order to expedite landing and get to T4 asap? Or was this an unusual occurance?



Another point - I was delayed by almost 2hrs tonight departing to MAN (again!) after the deluge around 1600hrs. As we taxied past T5 to 09R it did make me wonder just how much more congestion will T5 bring on days like today!!! Big thumbs up to the BMI crew - from 09R line up to touch down at MAN in less than 31 minutes - way to go!

[brimstone]

That was probably the occasion when the Concorde from New York or Washington was on course to beat its previous record time for the flight to Heathrow and was given 09R to expedite its arrival despite the fact that we were on westerly operations. My recollection is that the record was broken but can't remember the achieved time.

[VectorLine]

Big thumbs up to the BMI crew - from 09R line up to touch down at MAN in less than 31 minutes - way to go!
Hate to shatter your adoration for the BMI crew, but I can say with much confidence that they had very little part speeding your arrival.
London and Manchester Air Traffic are the ones to thank. better than blaming delays on ATC. It's airlines all wanting to go somewhere at the same time that causes delay, not ATC!

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

That was probably the occasion when the Concorde from New York or Washington was on course to beat its previous record time for the flight to Heathrow and was given 09R to expedite its arrival despite the fact that we were on westerly operations. My recollection is that the record was broken but can't remember the achieved time.

Captain Les Scott, Senior First Officer Tim Orchard and Senior Engineering Officer Rick Eades made history on the 7th February 1996, when they flew Concorde G-BOAD from New York to London in a record-breaking 2 hours, 52 minutes and 59 seconds; the fastest ever transatlantic crossing by a commercial aircraft.

[Mr R Sole]

Sounds like a crate of beer must of found its way into TC at West Drayton!

[Airplanepics]

Hi all,

If you ever need to check what rotation the runways are using, you can visit http://www.londonaviation.co.uk/lhrrunways.htm

Hope this is helpful to someone!

Regards,
Simon Nicholls

[MyData]

Vectorline - I stand corrected. Big up to ATC then. It was refreshing to make such good time after the delays due to the thunderstorms. Usually LHR->MAN is around the 35 mins on a good day.

On the Concorde landing - this will have occurred probably around November 2002 IIRC.

[cloudyapple]

Normally at 0600 when the curfew is lifted and there is sufficient holding delay, both runways are utilised. Forgive my memory here, but if I remember correctly, if there is 10 minutes holding delay at 0600, both runways are available. If at 0630 there is still a 5 minute delay, both runways are still available, in an attempt to have minimal delay at 0700. Ideally the T4 stuff goes on the south runway.

That's TEAMing Tactically Enhanced Arrivals Measures/Management - I always admire the people who come up with these acronyms...

Can you team during the day as well as early morning? What are the criteria to start teaming?

[Jerricho]

See, now I always thought TEAMing was something that was done during the day when the good old delay went in excess of 20 minutes and it was decreed that 6 arrivals per hour could be landed on the departure runway.

Standing by to cop crap about my ****e memory.

[Gonzo]

Jer,

Things have moved on a bit since you were here! :ok:

As part of 'enhanced TEAM', the 20 minutes delay can be made up of any holding delay in the stacks plus any delay the aircraft picked up in the form of a slot a tthe depature airfield.