Regarding BA layoffs

[Blackbeard]

With the forthcoming BA layoffs, how many pilots are affected? And is BALPA going to continue to allow AACS and the proposed GSS to fly BA cargo runs? It would appear that BA pilots should be doing it and only excess capacity would be flown by AACS/GSS.

[Hot Wings]

Sadly, Blackbeard, BA management regard this as a golden opportunity to carve-up the airline. Much of our work is being given away to CitiExpress and other franchise operations.

Even though many pilots at BA are paid less than pilots at Ryanair and Easy, the cost of continuing to run a massive civil service type bureaucracy, cabin crew who earn more than pilots and gigantic Yen debts, means that BA will be hard pushed to ever make a profit. Also, we upset every travel agent in the UK when we axed commissions. Have you ever tried to pick up a BA Holidays brochure? Impossible!

I agree that we should be doing much more to stop our work being given away but a cosy union/ company relationship mean't that we never pushed for a legally binding scope clause. There are too many pussycats amongst BA flight crew who still believe that a gentleman's agreement is sufficient and who only get angry when they can't do 4 premium trips every month. Complacency and "I'm alright Jack" are the mottos of the old guard amongst BA flight crew. The good news is that times and attitudes are changing. There will be a fight but I suspect that it will be too late.

[The Zombie]

Hot Wings,
I feel that every word you posted is true.
What a shame for the industry to find ourselves where we are today.

ZZZZZzzzzzzz....... :mad:

[Airbrake]

Hotwings.
Have you read the letter from Capt. XXXX in the latest issue of the Log? The subject matter is interesting if only for the fact that this Captain with 30yrs seniority at BA can only just afford his BALPA subscriptions and he wants more premium lines because 'the new boys' are taking them!
I am not BA by the way.

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Airbrake ]

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Airbrake ]

[wooof]

Airbrake,

I'm not so sure that it's a good idea mentioning people by name on this board.

However I did'nt know whether to laugh or cry at his predicament, but the biggest suprise was that The Log printed it in the first place. Surely the BA BALPA reps should have dealt with his query directly.

As a BALPA member with far more pressing problems since last month (I assume he wrote the letter prior to the 11th sept) than said chaps allowance dilemma, I would have thought there would be far more topical or interesting letters to publish, particuly for the odd BALPA member thats not in BA. At the risk of appearing sensative a lot of us are now facing redundancy or demotion, I would hope that BALPA could use a little more nous.

[Airbrake]

Wooof.
Point taken. I have removed his name. However, he did write his letter to a widely circulated publication and he is named at the end of the article. Name removed to avoid undue stress!

[B clam]

The guy you are referring to is getting a bit of a grilling on the BA forum. He is obviously from the same planet as the Guvnor! Please don't assume all BA chaps/chapesses are of the same mindset!!

[Trevordale744]

I quite agree, not all of us 30 year serving long haul types in BA are w*****s, just enough to **** people off!
Yes we should fly freight with our callsign on!
Rapidly aging crmbly!

[BIG MACH]

I was not aware that any pilot redundancies had been announced. DEPs were still signing on the dotted line up until last week, which suggests that either everything is ticketyboo in BA, or the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.

[Anti-ice]

Hot Wings - where do you get this big idea that cabin crew earn more than pilots at BA?

Cabin crew start on £7,800-9,000 , plus taxable allowances adding maybe another £7-8000.

Please tell us which pilots are on a basic of £9,000???

Maybe if you got the oldest CSD in the company, with the newest FO you might be near the mark , but in general they earn less than the pilots.

Indeed,everyone of the new entrants I have come across in the last year who have tried to get a mortgage have been declined as their earnings would give them a mortgage of on average £44,000

On the other hand (& maybe quite rightly so,)
most new FO's seem to have a brand new sporty car & a recently acquired property.

[Carnage Matey!]

Interesting. I don't know many FOs with brand new sporty cars (unless they're of independent means). How about these statistics then:

New CEP FO basic salary £21K, of which £3K is reclaimed by BA, hence £18K. Short haul CSD lowest pay point £28K.

New CEP FO training- two years on £30 per week (circa £1500 pa)
New cabin crew training- 6 weeks, on basic of £7000 pa.

New FO responsibility £30M+ aircraft.
New CSD responsiblity- duty free trolley, on-board performance assessment forms, running to flight deck with problems.

[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: Carnage Matey! ]

[smellster]

Sorry off topic a bit,

Airbrake's post has just reminded me to cancel my subscription to BALPA, having read this months LOG and many others, and in particular the letter he was referring to, the sooner that letter writer disappears from aviation the better. I guess that letter writer is thankfully the last of the dying breed that refers to an FO as 'Boy'.

As a young (mid 20's) Captain on a twin turboprop, BALPA offers nothing to me.

Smellster

[Payscale]

CARNAGE - FO responsibility! not in any company I've ever flown in. All the blame rest with the Commander. No FO has ever been charge with something the Commander wasn't.

[knows]

Anti - Ice .. Sorry you are simply mistaken.

Carnage Matey ...Thanks for pointing out the facts.

[Porky Speedpig]

But F/Os get Flying Hour Rate and CSDs do not
How about a take home pay comparison?

[tech...again]

...just heard on Virgin Radio UK that Lord Marshall of BA "hinted" today (whatever that means) that there may well be more job cuts to be announced soon at BA.

Bloody marvellous (but unfortunately not surprising)

:confused: :mad:

[Carnage Matey!]

OK short haul FO will do approx 600hrs flying per year, almost exclusively in the lower bracket of FHR at about £6.40 per hour. Thats about £3800 per year, so your looking at about £21800 for the FO. CSD is still on £28K

[Hot Wings]

Thank you Carnage Matey! I just couldn't be bothered to explain!

Hot from the BA forum is news that the 15% pay cut taken by our illustrious leaders has actually been in exchange for share options.

Which brings me to my next point: every year when we get the results from the Employee Opinion Survey, they show that the majority of staff at BA have no faith in the ability, leadership or direction of our board and senior management. The standard response is that communication needs to be improved ie. they know what they are doing but we are just too dumb to understand. The reality though, is that we do know and we do understand - its just that we have no trust in their actions, which considering my previous point, appears to be entirely justified.

Don't forget, Eddington already ruined two airlines and now he is lining up his third!

[thewwIIace]

please dont compare apples with oranges, bottom CSD shorthaul (ie new as can be) could be new contract so considerably less. as for FO with no authority, last time i looked, they were second in command after capt, and i have seen a few times a FO save a Capt bacon for various things. also i believe mr boeing and mrs airbus make the a/c for TWO pilots, yes the capt has OVERALL authority, but i believe they work better as a team with both having valid points.

[Lucifer]

Get a grip: who cares if a CSD who has probably been in the airline for a while anyway earns a little more than a new FO. If you don't think they are worth it, you nor BA can't do a thing about it anyway, as they just like pilots are heavily unionised. Why is it so wrong to recognise somebody's experience in people management and safety-related matters in the cabin, or have those who feel so badly about this just got a chip on their shoulders?

Maybe if a little more respect was given to some of them, then flight-deck/cabin relations could be improved.

[charliecossie]

I've yet to meet a CSD under 40 but met plenty of co-drivers with a lake behind each ear 'ole (especially from LGW).

Does it **** me off that a longhaul CSD earns more than a Duty Engineer? Yep.
Do the cabin crew have a strong union when compared to the engineers? Yep.
Life sux, eh?
Live with it......

[thewwIIace]

just flew with a 28 y/o long haul CSD, so they are there! 1 or 2 made up after 3-4 years service!

[exeng]

WW11ACE,

You state,<<bottom CSD shorthaul (ie new as can be) could be new contract so considerably less.>>

Somewhat irrelevant I think as all CSD's pay scales are as per 'old contract'.

Still lets not let facts get in the way of a good story.


Regards
Exeng

[thewwIIace]

exeng,
where do the 'plastic pursers' fit in this then, ie ones made up a few years ago on 'new' contracts and kept in their positions on 'new' contracts

[Tandemrotor]

Why do BA even have CSD's?

Does any other airline have them?

The BA AML operations to the Caribbean operate EXREMELY well with a lead purser (No silver badge required!)

If we are talking 'market rate' here, let's apply it to ALL areas, and not just selectively!

Incidentally, only 2 crew members (3 including flight engineers) are REQUIRED to hold ANY professional qualification. (On long haul at least, the co-pilot's professional qualification is the same as the skippers - due to the fact that the captain is absent from the flight deck for long periods on rest)

If the CSD goes sick down route, is the a/c grounded?

If the co-pilot goes sick, can the captain fly it back on his own?

Let's all take a sensible pill eh!

[Pontius]

Absolutely right Tandem. I've been saying this for some time now.

If you look at LGW there are no CSDs. Even when we operated the 757 from LGW we didn't have a CSD. In my opinion there is no need for a CSD on any of our shorthaul aircraft. I could be persuaded they are needed on LH to (supposedly) co-oridnate the 3 ghettos on the aircraft, but deifinitely not on the SH fleets. The Pursers og LGW do a better job than the CSDs I've experienced and they're getting paid a shed load less = BIG savings for the company. I reckon they should be offered LH positions if (a)they are available and (b)the CSD is senior eneough and if neither of these apply then tell them it's Purser or bust......and for the desenters; yes you can do that according to employment law.

While we're at it what about the other management strata; MCSeseses? I thought the CSDs got their pay rise because overnight they became more 'managerial'. I can't say I noticed a difference, but the main point is that they are allegedly now performing the same role as an MSC (and getting paid handsomely for it) so why do we still employ the 'sit around in 1st and pretend to write reports brigade'.

Unfortunately nobody listens to the rants of people like me so all the yes people will continue to surround themselves in more of the same, so they can take the fall when the time comes and suddenly we've got 20000 too many people who did little/nothing towards the airline.....but what's this; are you saying that's already happened. Surely not :mad:

Later,

Pontius

[paulsamcam]

All airlines have some kind of CSD whether they call them, Lead Flight Attendant,Customer Service Manager, Cabin Manager,Chef de Cabine,Chief Purser, the list is endless some job different title.It is not a position that is unique to BA.
Basic starting salary is not £28,000, more like £26,000 and that is only for someone who started before 1997.
Why the big attack on CSD's?
A well lead cabin crew team deliver excellent customer service, which ensures repeat business, which means we all have aircraft to fly and money in the bank.
The in-charge cabin crew member is the custodian of customer service. All airlines need a responsible, accountable person, with excellent people skills to be in charge of the cabin.
Believe me the selection process at BA to become a CSD is hard and highly competative,
most applicants try again and again before they are successful.

[Carnage Matey!]

Well as I fly short haul and regularly position short haul I can say with honesty that I can see absolutely no difference whatsoever between the service provided by a CSD and a Purser, neither in terms of CRm or customer service. I am wholly unconvinced of the need to have the CSD role on any short haul aircraft. Yes, some of them are very good, but so are many Pursers. I have no wish to denigrate the people who are CSDs, but I think the role of CSD in short haul should be eliminated.

[thewwIIace]

its also interesting to see that since the first mooted job losses etc has ANYONE being given notice? in know it has to go through unions etc, but why is it the other airlines, VS, BMI, charters etc have moved NOW, while we wait on our butts, by the time it all happens, it may be not enough and a little to late. i see at least 25% (18,000) job losses as more accurate and to be in with a chance of survival. too many office people doing not alot fast enough. leave front line alone and cut the dead wood out!

[Peter L]

Dear all,
Have any of you (as pilots) been offered to cut your flying duties?? ie: 75% contract or is this not workable for pilots?? My girlfriend and I both took the offer (today) of the 75% contact for 1 year when finacially it will make life that bit more difficult for us. (plan to marry in 2002). Anyway sorry to bore but is this an offer and would anyone consider working 21 days and off 7 ???
I know we have grounded planes so there must be an excess of you lovely flyers!!!!

Pete

[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: Peter L ]

[exeng]

Carnage Matey,

The whole of your last post hit the nail exactly on the head!

Say no more.


Regards
Exeng

[Egg Mayo]

As an "outsider" looking in I always thought that the "CSD issue" optimized what was wrong with BA; too many Chiefs, not enough Indians. Poor analogy I know, but following on from a previous contributor, it makes not one iota of difference whehter junior or senior member of staff hands out the infamous deli-bag on short-haul. Lets face it, how can being a CSD enhance the process of giving out a brown paper bag?

[euroboy]

Oh yes other airlines have the CSD. bmi has the FSM (Flight Service Manager) and another one CSM? on the long haul routes.
Days of the Gulf War FSM had to work as No1 or Flight Supervisor`s ie a Purser.

I also wonder why you have an CSD or FSM on short haul when you have a Purser on board. I believe it has come about when the 767 came on to BA short haul routes.
But dont quote me as I was not about then.

As for the travel agents commission. This has nothing to do with BA Holidays. The commission that was being talked about was the schedule flights commission. Which went into the Travel agents pocket and not the Sales Consultant`s who booked the flight. 99% of people booking flights in a travel agents really do not care who they fly with. Cost is the factor. Even when trying to sell a holiday and you say the flight is with BA (EOG and Maersk-BA charters) the customer does not care whether the flight is with BY or AMM.
Tour Operators agree the commissiom rate with the different travel agents and it is usually between 15-20%. The house tour op. pays the most commission, ie Lunn Poly and Thomsons, JMC and Thomas Cook.
BA Holidays are booked by all high street travel agents, and they compete with the likes of Hayes and Jarvis (First Choice owned) Tradewinds (Airtours) and the Sales consultant will try to swop you to the house brand. Specially Thomas Cook before Thomas Cook Holidays and BA Holidays merged, they competed very much with a simlar product.
The brochures may not be racked because of comerical pressure, but they are available if you ask.

[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]

[The Zombie]

Porky Speedpig
Now that would be interesting...!
Go on then all you cabin crew reading this, what are your general pay scale rates?
They are never generally published as BALPA does with the pilot ones.

For everyone's information a BA Longhaul CSD can earn £3500+ variable pay in a MONTH on top of their basic £32000+. (No typos here and I've got the proof too). That is £74000pa.

I'm NOT saying it is too much, but would like the PPRuNe readership to make their own mind up.

As for the original thread we have again gone off subject. Any more news on BA lay offs?

[thewwIIace]

zombie speak with very large fork tounge. it is more in the region of £35,000 p.a as a more accurate figure, and from that take out pension, share save scheme (£50 pm) i also speak from marital experience with my better half being a CSD WBA LHR

[euroboy]

OK Main Crew BA LHR EuroFleet new contract with cabin crew experience since 1988. No1 with BD 9 years, SEP and Security Trainer who trained both pilots and cabin crew.
Also understands travel agents commission!

Basic £9200 pa
Allowances £850-£900 pm.

NB if on leave or if ever sick allowances go down.

[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]

[JustAnother777Driver]

All very interesting ... now back to the thread ... BA layoffs :)

[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: JustAnotherDriver ]

[The Zombie]

thewwIIace
'it is more in the region of £35,000 p.a as a more accurate figure'

Thanks for the info. As I said, a basic pay of £32000+. Then on top, you have the variable payments which can be £3500+ per month especially in Longhaul.That is £74000pa.


Getting back to the real thread here. I heard a rumour that the 7000 layoffs is still not enough and another 3000+ head count reduction to follow early in November(7th). Working on a straight percentage basis compared to the previous figures that is 4% capacity, 160 pilots and 985 cabin crew.
This is yet to be comfirmed in any way and so I hope it to be just rumour. :(

[Tandemrotor]

Just so we keep this all in perspective, I know for a fact, that as of Monday 29th Oct BA were still starting brand new pilots on full pay.

Crisis, what crisis?

[thegirth]

Most Flight Crew jobs to be saved by the "demographic curve" and the take up of part-time and unpaid leave, plus the taking on of Qantas B744 flights to Sydney while they take up the Ansett slack for 6 months.

Good news, I think!

The pilots starting 29 Oct would have signed contracts and resigned 3 months ago. BA have honoured all verbal and written contracts of employment given pre 11 Sept. Bloody good of them really when they could have told everyone "tough sh*t".

[fergineer]

Well guys a little birdy higher up a ladder than me tells me that BA are applying and undercutting everyone for flying the Hajj from all countries, so thats where all that Tax payers subsidies went!!!! I can just imagine all you Nigels extending Crew duty and fudging the paperwork to complete the task then min rest and up to do it all again. Big boys treading on the little guys again but hey good luck you will need it !!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[The Zombie]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

:confused:

[BusyB]

Fergineer, Ifyou're fudging the paperwork perhaps someone else should be doing it!!

[Hand Solo]

And what taxpayers subsidies would those be then? Do you really think at the time Britain is helping to bomb Afghanistan were going to be trying to win the contract to carry thousands of Islamic pilgrims? Get real!

[qwertyuiop]

Hand, If your lot aren't trying you should be a little concerned because the rest are. That pompous attitude does not make good business sense. I would imagine its is fairly safe flying to Mecca with a full load of pilgrims, hardly a prime target.

[YakYak]

World's favourite airline, eh?
You all must be SO very proud. :eek:

[The Guvnor]

And from the Haj back to the subject at hand... :rolleyes:

From today's Telegraph:

BA staff give up pre-Christmas bonus

Thousands of British Airways staff are
forgoing their pre-Christmas bonus to help
safeguard the airline's future in the wake
of the US terror attacks.

The move, made in a "spirit of compromise" by pilots, cabin crew and other staff, will save BA around £15 million. A further £11 million is being cut from the pay of thousands of middle and senior managers.

BA said it intended to pay the bonus, equivalent to a week's wages, when its
financial position allowed, promising a review next May.

Chief executive Rod Eddington said the agreement took the company a "major
step closer" to safeguarding its future.

Most unions agreed that the bonus would not be paid this month, recognising that BA was experiencing "particularly difficult times" because of the slump in air travel after the September 11 outrage.

But the GMB broke ranks from the other unions and refused to agree to the deal, saying it would be taking BA to court for alleged breach of contract.

National officer Allan Black said: "Our members are now under direct attack by
BA. The airline is being cavalier in its response to the events of September 11."

BA said the GMB was standing alone in its rejection of the deal and the airline pledged to "vigorously defend" any court action.

Around 36,000 pilots, cabin crew, engineers and ground staff have agreed to forgo the bonus in a bid to protect the airline's corporate cash reserves.

In a separate move, 3,500 middle managers are being asked to accept a 5% pay cut and receive no bonuses next year to save a further £9 million. BA's board has taken a 50% cut in fees, directors have agreed to a 15% pay cut and 600 managers have been asked to take a 10% pay reduction to save a further £2 million.

[Tim Jefferson]

I read something on here about the BA board (or some group) having accepted their 15% pay cut in exchange for share options, but can't remember where...

Does anyone know any more about this, and if so is it from a reliable source or just gossip?? :confused: :confused:

[The Zombie]

web page (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016301)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... :rolleyes:

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: The Zombie ]