Cessna 152 or Tomahawk

[Fretwanger]

I am torn between 2 schools in my area, just about to commence serious PPL training, have the cash, but from peoples experience, which aircraft is on the whole, the best?

Thanks

oh and if willby or indeed anyone who read my post about a month ago, reads this i passed my class 1 medical at Gatwick :D

[flyfish]

I would go for the 152, simply because most clubs have them, so if after you pass your test, if you go somewhere else to rent, you will feel a bit more confident.
Having said that I wouldn't base your decision on what type you will learn on, both are established trainers.

What you need to do is decide which school overall is the best for you.

Get down to both schools, and spend some time talking to the instructors and staff.
Find out who your instructor is likely to be, find out if you are likely to have the same instructor throughout.
See who you gel with more.
I would also get some feedback from current students , that way you will be able to establish if the aircraft are well maintained, the groundschool well run, the costings fair etc.
In summary get to both, drink coffee, ask loads of questions and get a feel for both places.

good luck and have fun
Flyfish

oh and congrats on the class 1

[J.A.F.O.]

Couldn't agree more - find the school where you are most comfortable and go for that.

I learnt first on Tomahawks, then on 152s. The conversion is no drama and both are good at what they do.

Best of British to you.

[Cat.S]

Size matters! I just don't fit in a Cessna, but find the Tomahawk very comfortable as the cabin is 4" wider then a PA28 and, if memory serves me correctly, 6" wider than a 152.

[Kolibear]

I learnt in a C152, but my current a/c has a bubble canopy and a low wing, like a Tomahawk The view out is far superior to a C152 or a PA28, so on that basis - go for the Tomahawk.

[Tango Oscar]

I learnt on a Traumahawk and would deffo recommend it. It can be a bit 'lively' in the stall, but on the whole, a very good trainer.
My school had PA38's and 152's. I went for the PA38 on the advice of my instructor. He said the PA38 was more challenging to fly, and the transition from a PA38 to a 152 is much easier than the other way round. No idea if he was right or not.


As others have said though, I would definately focus my attention on the school rather than the aircraft type.

Good Luck :ok:

[IO540]

I've got 20hrs in a PA38 and would not recommend it. It's OK to learn on ("you learn PROPER flying, young man" kind of thing) but the thing is so unstable that it's very tiring to fly it for any distance. The stall behaviour (a rapid wing drop followed by an exciting plummet) is not too safe IMHO. And it makes sense to learn in a type which one will be flying afterwards. No substitute for currency on type.

[Chilli Monster]

IO

Much as we normally agree on everything I'm sorry, here comes a first.

PPL, IMC and night all on a Traumahawk (even spun one). Never found it tiring, always found it pleasant. I think the best guide is later, when you're flying bigger and better. I'd go back and fly a Tommy tomorrow, but doubt whether I'd drag myself into a 152.

But as others have said - it's just a means to an end. The aircraft doesn't matter, the school does. You need the school that's going to make you the most proficient PPL in the most efficient way with your hard earned cash.

Plenty of time post PPL to worry about aircraft types and what you're going to play with next :)

[Blinkz]

I learnt in both the tommy and warrior, pretty much 30hrs in both, altho abit more solo time in the warrior.

For GH I think the tommy is the best option, its more interesting to fly and has great viz, also more spacious. LIke has been said tho it can be abit tedious to do cross countries with since it always requires attention to keep it where you want it, which just increases the pressure on you when trying to learn x-c skills.

warrior is much more stable, too stable I think for decent GH, you can do alot to it and it'll just sit there, unlike the tommy that will teach you to be careful.

Not flown a 152 so can't comment, but I don't like highwings, its annoying not being able to see where your turning into! If I did it all again I think I'd still do it how I did. I recommend the tommy since it'll make you a better pilot, plus its got better viz.

[AppleMacster]

I've just started leasing a Tomahawk for hour building, having done 78 hours in a C152 during and beyond training. Yesterday, I managed 6.2 hours, and was nowhere near as tired as in a 152. The 152 is much smaller and much less comfortable. I always thought that a sore behind was part-and-parcel of flying light aircraft, but yesterday's 6.2 hours was the most relaxing I've ever done. I've also flown Arrows and find the Tomahawk more comfortable.

[mazzy1026]

It's very difficult, if not impossible to be able to judge a flying school, until you have parted some money and done business with them. Why not have half an hour in the C152 with one school (kind of a mini trial) and half an hour with the other school in the Tommy? This will really be the only way to help decide.

I personally am learning on the Tommy, and do prefer it to the 152 for most of the reasons above, but the feeling of being able to look down in the 152 and see the ground, is awesome.

Best of luck,

Maz :ok:

[A and C]

I have instructed on both types and the PA-38 produces a pilot who has less trouble converting quickly to other types and it also spins properly and requires the proper recovery action to be taken, in short it is the best of the two as a pilot trainer.

As an owner I would go for the Cessna as it is a much less trouble when it comes to maintenance.

[S-Works]

I have about 20hrs in terrahawks and just short of a thousand in my 152 and would not get in another terrahawk for love or money. Nasty thing to fly.

152 is a great stable platform and the high wing gives great sightseeing. My 152 and I have done some great trips and following the new engine at the end of the month will be doing plenty more!

I fly a low wing twin most of the time and the view over a low wing becomes very samey after awhile with a high wing you can actually see where you are going. Poor viz in a turn is not a problem of you fly accuratly.

The great thing about getting back in the 152 after the twin is it feels like a twist and go moped, I hardly think about flying it which gives me plenty of time to look out the window and enjoy the view!

[J.A.F.O.]

Didn't want to mention the extra room as I thought that the reason the 152 was a snug fit was the extra inches that the intervening years had added to me.

I really liked the Tomahawk when I flew it nearly twenty years ago, in fact if I could find one to rent in East Anglia I'd be there tomorrow (quite literally).

I stalled it, spun it, did x-c in it, everything really and preferred it to the 152 in every way.

[MLS-12D]

Both aircraft have their pros and cons, but there are no major advantages or disadvantages to either; they are both well-designed trainers. As flyfish and J.A.F.O. have said, choose your school on other factors (price, proximity to your home, feedback from other students, etc.). And Maz's suggestion is great.

the thing is so unstable that it's very tiring to fly it for any distance. The stall behaviour (a rapid wing drop followed by an exciting plummet) is not too safe IMHO.I disagree. Possibly the aircraft that you flew had been in an accident or was otherwise severly out of rig. Anyway, the problems that you describe certainly don't match my experience on type, such as it is (6 hours).

[Freebird17]

I might be wrong but I seem to remember that the PA38 seat isn't adjustable forwards and backwards, whereas the C152's is.

I could be mixing it up with something else.

[Fretwanger]

well, ive flown in a c152 for an hour now, but have yet to fly in a tomahawk, although have flown a chipmunk, SAE bulldog and a grob tutor, (bulldog was the best).

does a tomahawk have a similar feel to one of these above? (god the hollow fibreglass wings were horrible on the grob, made me think it wanted to me a seagull, the way it flapped its wings :S)

Thanks

[mad_jock]

I have about 700 hours Instructing in the PA38 and about 300 in cessna types.

Go for the school who has the instructor you get on with. That will have a far great effect than a different plane type.

Persoanlly I prefered teaching in the PA38 for various reasons.

Mostly to do with the fact you don't have to sit on each others knee and even with 2 big blokes on board your shoulders won't be touching. And with female students you don't invade there personal space.

You can adjust the PA38 seat forward and back.

It is a responsive fun aircraft to learn in. And you will have no problems at all converting to other similar small types.

The down side to it as a trainer is.

1. It has the most awful trimmer ever invented a real pain in the tits if it starts slipping.

2. The amount of rumour ****e which is spread about it which most issues were resolved before the mark 2 went into production.

It is safe spinning if you follow the POH

The tail won't fall off.

The tail does wobble about, its meant to.

The banging down the back is the ****ty spring that pretends to be a trimmer banging off the skin. They all do it.

Its a bitch in the stall. Its not if you smoothly bring it into the stall controlling it with the rudders, it stalls like any other aircraft. It gives a nice positive buffet and a definate stall which the wing drop can be controlled by the rudders. If your heavy handed it will wing drop. But even if the wing drops to 80-90 degrees down you can pick it back up with the rudder.

BUt saying that there is nothing wrong with learning in a C152.
If your small and so is your instructor most of the plus points have been negated.

MJ

[J.A.F.O.]

I don't want to move on too far from the original question - to which the informed answer seems to be "where you feel most comfortable" and to which I'd add "and don't be afraid to change your mind and take your large sums of money elsewhere if you're not getting what you want and need" but I wondered with all this enthusing about the Tomahawk why do 95% of schools and clubs have their tired old 150s and 152s?

Is this all down to the kind of ridiculous rumours that spread prior to the level headed introduction of an internet based pilot's rumour network?

[Gingerbread Man]

The T-Hawk seat does go forwards and backwards (just showing off if you ask me), which is great if you are the same height as me. I flew with a friend in a C152 - luckily he was doing the flying as I was entirely consumed with keeping my feet off the pedals. It really is a tight fit for some people. I was also told by someone that "if you can fly a tomahawk, you can fly anything". I can reveal, having flown something else, that this is nonsense. Compared to the 172 I moved on to, the Tomahawk was a doddle to fly.

Enjoy it, whichever you choose!

Ginge :)

[Fretwanger]

at one of the schools, all of the planes have their own little problems (im not going to mention which aircraft because that'll name the school pretty much), like on one of the aircraft, the right seat doesnt go back, on one of them the fuel cut off lever is jammed in 'on' (which i beleive is covered in another topic somewhere), whilst the other school all the planes seem to be ship shape, dont get me wrong the school with the 'problem' aircraft seems professional enough, but i just felt so pressured in taking like 3 lessons a week when my budget can only stretch to 2 now and again, i went for one lesson, loved it (to which then my rover metro (with a ruptured head gasket) wouldnt start, the instructor give me a push start whilst i managed to bump the car in 2nd lol, I think i will fly with this second school for a couple of lessons, and maybe go with the other one.

Also, despite me liking this instructor, the guy i was originally scheduled in for was 40 minutes late (despite me being 35 minutes early), so in the end te aforementioned guy took me.

Comments?

Cheers

[J.A.F.O.]

If there are little things that make you uncomfortable or just P you off then they could eventually become big things. Certainly don't ever let anyone pressure you to fly when you don't want to - whatever the reason.

But, as I've said before, you ain't marrying them you're just hiring an aircraft and instructor at an hour a time. If you don't like the way it's going then buy your next hour elsewhere.

Good luck.

[Cat.S]

As mad_jock said, the PA38 stall is okay if you use the rudder pedals for what they're intended for. Making sure you're nowhere near the MAOW is important though. My first stall was in an overweight aircraft and it was dire! After that, my instructor was very careful to make sure we had half tanks or less before trying it again.
I got used to the trimmer and found that the constant adjustment needed became automatic. Not only does the seat adjust, it rises as it goes forward and drops as it goes back. My wife (4' 11") can see out and reach the pedals, and I'm too far back and too low on the furthest back position. (I'm 6' 2").
The PA 28 is much more stable, but not quite as much fun, but that too has some nasty habits. I was very glad that the instructor who gave me a checkout in the PA 28-151 demonstrated what happens when you dump all the flap in one go at 4000'!

[Fretwanger]

yeah, i suppose I didn't think like that, thanks for the advice guys :D

[cavortingcheetah]

;)

Well now; I am 6ft 2ins and weigh 95kgs. Good looking as well !
I never had any trouble fitting into a C152 or, for that matter, a Tomohawk' on both of which I have a considerable amount of instructing time.
I don't think that this Piper is an aeroplane. It's a little balsa wood look alike cooked up by Piper to satisfy the demented lusts of US instructors some thirty years ago when spinning was meant to be hell. It killed a lot of them in the beginning before Piper amended the POH to indicate that the spin recovery was a non-standard one. That might have changed now but then, as far as I know, spinning is no longer required for the UK PPL.
It really is a horrid little piece of tin and extremely uncomfortable in hot weather, if there is ever to be any in England this summer.
I used to fly the Tomohawk in Johannesburg as well. 5,500ft pa and +35c. A true non performer. Spent more time winging it to the GF than we ever had spare to spend demonstrating the excercises of the day.
All that said; the best advice is to go for the right school and the right instructor. But in my never so humble opinion, if you are going to fly a Tomohawk solo you absolutely must be confident in spin and incipient spin recovery. Turns on to Finals with flap, low power and carb heat can lead to a rapid eruption of collywobbles unless you are fluent with the nasty little thing.:yuk:

[Tinstaafl]

Cessna 150/152 also can have a most unfriendly wing drop in a slipped or turning stall - particularly if at high power. Most a/c do so not much that's too surprisingly different between the PA38 & C150/152. However...

I much prefer the Cessna. I think I can help make a better pilot in it that in the Piper. Not that I can't help someone be a good pilot in a Tommy. I just prefer the handling qualities of Cessnas. Nothing more than a personal preference really although I believe I can justify my preference well enough. Others prefer the PA38, some the PA28 etc etc.

The real nub of the matter is: Which instructor and which school suits your personality better? Any competent instructor can teach in either.

[mad_jock]

The real nub of the matter is: Which instructor and which school suits your personality better? Any competent instructor can teach in either.

Tin has got it in a nut shell. Even if it costs 5 quid more an hour its worth it.

MJ

[FlightIdle]

All other things being equal you might like to consider what potential employers are operating. When you hit the "hour building" phase most single engine piston operators will be flying Cessna's, and to get your foot in the door 100 hours on a Cessna may just be an advantage over 100 hours on a low wing Piper.

Personally, I found the high wing aircraft better when learning to navigate and was also much better for passengers (and pilot) to see out.

By far the most important considerations are that you choose a flying school that has people you like, well maintained aircraft and a number of aircraft types that you can advance on. No doubt when you have flown some time in either a C152 or Tomahawk you will be looking for some added performance and complication.