do controllers feel inadequate?

[purr777]

Having recently met 2 controllers in person I came away with a slightly negative opinion. The level of arrogance was somewhat surprising. I distinctly got the impression they liked to be the best and certainly didn't like feeling "inadequate", especially against a pilot! It was a very uncomfortable situation, albeit social (!) but are controllers in general overly confident? Why? Maybe the two I met had power issues or were bitter.

[The Greaser]

Bullet proof vest at the ready.

[Right Way Up]

Just my 2 penny worth.
I think controllers maybe have to be a little more confident/arrogant than even airline pilots. It seems to me that any self doubt would be a great hindrance to a successful career in ATC.

[aluminium persuader]

How can we superior beings ever be overconfident?
We don't think we're right - we ARE right!

:p

[niknak]

Admitedly there are a few who are so wrapped up in their own self importance they can't remember their own names, (they are usually managers or aspiring managers).
But the majority of us enjoy the job and the benefits it brings too much to give a to 2 hoots about the things that inflate their ego's.

[CAP670]

Depends on where the controllers work and what sort of traffic levels and complexity they have to contend with.

Those that work in the most intense situations for example, the London TMA inbound/outbound radar controllers do probably come across in this way: but as a mangement controller once said said "If you havn't got the ba**s and the bottle, you couldn't hack the job".

Someone who works at a relatively quiet location in uncomplicated airspace is probably going to be a loss less 'punchy' (and will no doubt, live longer...)

The best comparison with pilots is with military 'fast-jet' types at one end of the spectrum and GA civil flying instructors at the other. Both are professionally qualified doing essential flying jobs. But the latter doesn't require quite the same mental approach or attitude (except when the student's frighteningly incompetent!!).

:cool:

[Jerricho]

Interesting first post.

Niknak sums it up perfectly. A level of self confidence is certainly required, but arrogance certainly isn't a common trait. As to feeling inadequate, I find that a stange word to use. The greatest thing about the job is that when you take your headset off and walk out the door, you know if you did a good job or not. You try to provide the best service you can, no matter where you are in the world.

[yaffs]

to answer the question - no

maybe it was indifference, not arrogance

were you just upset that they didnt bow down to your piloty type greatness?

yaffs

[Binoculars]

I was wondering the same thing, yaffs. Whose perception was it that they felt inadequate next to a pilot? The pilot's? Was he perhaps a little perturbed that they didn't seem to feel inadequate against him? Who knows?

I tend to disagree with Jerricho a little here, I don't think there's any doubt that a certain level of arrogance exists, almost as a requirement for the job. The crossover between self-confidence and arrogance is a thin one, and very much in the eye of the beholder.

[Jerricho]

Overheard on a busy sector one day................

"You wanna impress me? Do it with your eyes closed" :}

[apache43]

They were probably arrogant before they became controllers.

[Jerricho]

Thinking about it that Binos, I guess you're right. There are people out there who are more than willing to try and show you how big they think their dick is compared to everybody else ;) ;)

(Unlike me, cause I'm hung like the planet Pluto)

[av8boy]

(Unlike me, cause I'm hung like the planet Pluto)

…Can’t see it with the naked eye…

Barump-bump.


Anyway... We're all like that. Insufferable. Can you blame us? We save you from yourselves and this is the thanks we get? You have the nerve to complain? Are we controllers up there trying to run into you? No sir. It's other pilots. But enough of this...

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a pilot who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very separation I provide, then questions the manner in which I boast about it while I'm drinking. I'd prefer you just said “thank you” and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get checked out on a position and work it.

:D

[Scott Voigt]

Wait a minute, isn't Pluto the "SMALLEST" planetoid in our system???? <EG>

Scott

[Jerricho]

Yes Scott, it is http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing05.gif

There ya go Dave

[av8boy]

...and you can't see it with the naked eye...

Geez. One US ATC finishes Jerricho's joke and another US ATC gets the credit. Is it because he's a Center puke, Jerricho? Is THAT why he gets all the credit?

It again reminds me of the fundamental sorts of stuff that Center and TRACON controllers do and how they differ (Yes, Jerricho, you've heard this before!)...

Typical TRACON R/T: "United 52 Heavy five miles from Limma turn left heading 270 maintain three thousand two hundred until established on the localizer cleared ILS runway 25 left approach."


Typical Center conversation:

United 52 Heavy: "Fort Worth Center United 52 Heavy level FL330."
Center: "United 52 Heavy Fort Worth roger."


Then, on top of that, he gets JOKE CREDIT as well? Dunno what to say...


Dave :)

[normally right blank]

purr777:
I would like to know the age of the two "arrogant" ATCO's - and Yours', by the way. ;) . I've personally learned a lot from bar-room hand "dogfights" with all sorts of pilots.
Best regards

[Jerricho]

No no Dave, you have it all wrong.

It just took Scott a little longer, and I was congratulating him ono getting with the program ;)

(I tried to find something lie a "Pat Scott on the head" smiley, but couldn't, and the sarcastic one didn't quite look right)

Wait, I found one................ :E

[av8boy]

Oddly, I believe you!;)

[atco-matic]

to quote av8 boy:

Typical TRACON R/T: "United 52 Heavy five miles from Limma turn left heading 270 maintain three thousand two hundred until established on the localizer cleared ILS runway 25 left approach."

Oh lordy if only it were that simple in the uk...

typical enroute (TRACON) r/t:

Spanair 1156: London Spanair 1156
London: Spanair 1156 go ahead?
Spanair 1156: errrr spanair 1156 level 330
London: <slowly and clearly> Spanair 1156 london roger route direct avant then midhurst, ockham, hemel, Pigot 1 juliet arrival for East Midlands.

<silence>

London: Spanair 1156 did you copy? route avant, midhurst ockham hemel Pigot 1 juliet arrival for east midlands.
Spanair 1156: Roger route kathy midhhhhurst hhhhemel ockhhhham.

etc etc etc...

[av8boy]

I think I see your point...
;)

[DirtyPierre]

maybe it was indifference, not arrogance

I tell the missus the same thing.

Jerricho, pepper and twizers for your lady?

[Jerricho]

Why DP.

You got a spare pair you're not using at the moment? I hope you cleaned them.

[Lady Monk]

A BA captain passes away and finds himself at the gates to heaven.

St. Peter greets him and welcomes him, giving him a white robe to change into.

"But can't I keep my uniform on?" the captain asks.

"Sorry Captain" replies St. Peter, "but anyone passing through these gates must be wearing a white robe to show the purity of heaven."

The Captain looks past St. Peter and points to someone "But what about him, he's got his uniform on?"

"Oh" says St. Peter, "thats God, he just THINKS he's a BA Captain."

:D

Sorry, couldnt resist!

Arrogance is everywhere, just dont mistake someone who is proud to do the job with someone who is arrogant about their ability!

[Up a bit down a bit]

Firstly, i like to believe that most controllers are pround of the job they achieve in difficult circumstances, rather than arrogant about their superiority.
Secondly, Av8boy, kind off recognise your monologue, Not sure that 'Col Nathan Jessop'(AKA big jack) would be happy about you passing off that soap box effort as your own work!?

:ok:

[bekolblockage]

Pretentious?!
Moi?
Merde.

[man friday]

i dont think i've ever met, or,ever likely to meet an atco that feels inadequate when faced with a pilot.

it doesnt bear thinking about , what would be next an inferiority complex about coach drivers, where would the maddness end.

not wishing to burst your bubble Purr777 but a few years ago i was on the lash in central london with a few mates, one a proffesional pilot, who dropped this fact into every sentence when speaking to the fairer sex , one was a docker, and the others atcos. no prizes for guessing the only one who went home feeling inadequate that night!

[Seaton Approach]

If you're a docker, there's no such thing as a "fairer" sex, just sex. Sex is sex, 2 legs, 4 legs (more likely), same sex... :}

[man friday]

fair comment seaton approach, but even a docker wouldn't do a pilot, and thats really saying something!!!!!!!

[av8boy]

Not sure that 'Col Nathan Jessop'(AKA big jack) would be happy about you passing off that soap box effort as your own work!?

He said that too? Small world!

;)

Dave

[Minesapint]

Controllers arrogant - surely not! Well yes, they/we are. Ex RAF pilot plus 25 years ATC and I can definately state that controllers are like pillions - "I wanna be up front". :(

[blondie118]

I don't feel inadequate, never have done.

Maybe it's more of a man thing, or a pilot thing. :p

[Jerricho]

Believe me Blondie, you got nuthin' to worry about ;) ;)

[booke23]

Just because pilots get paid more than controllers, and are generally looked upon in awe by the general public, does'nt mean controllers should feel inadequate.


You should'nt read much into a controller being arrogant............the selection process favours "head strong" type's as it is thought they make better controllers.

[traveller5]

I don't agree that pilots are looked up to - at least not anymore. In the 60s and 70s maybe, but now it's a pretty dull, repetitive job similar to bus driving....and the public have come to realise it just as being cabin crew started to lose all its appeal in the late 80s.

[tobzalp]

Any retard with enough money can be a pilot.

[Uncommon Sense]

Hang on a minute....

A Pilot called a Controller arrogant?

Something about Pots and Kettles springs to mind.

Seriously - that is funny stuff!

I get to wear my ATC uniform to the beach - all I have to add is shoes for the hot pavement bit.

[Radar]

To be honest folks, this is the most entertaining thread I've read here for a very loooooooong time!

[dawn raider]

damned right.

They all need a sound thrashing in my book ..........

especially those london area chaps - not so much as a 'please' or 'thank you' verbal diahorrea (spelling) if you ask me. If I want to be vectored round another aircraft I'll bl**dy well ask for it. why else did they give us those TCAS thingies eh ??? to help us save the day (again) when you girlies get too busy doing you nails or playing noughts and crosses with the chap on the screen next to you.... didn't hear of the CAA considering giving you mini-control columns next to your desk so you could take over from us!! did you ?? eh ?? thought not.

well I've got news for you ATCO girlies if you want a real mans job then come spend a day with me 'soaring' through the skies round europe......... again and again.......sometimes 6 times a day on the same route........wearing the same uniform I got 5 years ago........(that still makes me look like a hotel porter.)
the glamour in the cabin may have gone but the birds now-a-days are good in a scrap and know what real tattoos should look like.

The staff travel, food, perks and lifestyle were all over-rated anyway. strap me in, pay me less that I made 5 years ago and let me fly chav's round all day for 900 hours a year and I'll show you nothing but gratitude because I'm a mans man, an airline pilot and I DEMAND the respect I deserve damn it.

If you ASTCO girlies couldn't cut the mustard then deal with it or go home and cry into your mummies apron. just stay out of MY sky.

how dare you call pilots arrogant.:ooh:

[booke23]

"Any retard with enough money can be a pilot"-


Hence any retard can be a controller ;-)

[Scott Voigt]

Don't worry Dawn Raider...

With UAV's pilots days are numbered <G>...

regards

Scott

[dawn raider]

scott,

admit it, you'd miss my charm !!:ok:

[Gort]

"Hence any retard can be a controller"
Not true. You said it yourself, there is a selection process with some major aptitude testing and training. Pilots just need a rich father to get a licence.

[booke23]

Of course most pilots in reality do not have a rich father........in fact alot of pilots suffer great hardship to pay for their licence.

The refreashing thing about talking to pilots, is that the majority of them are very passionate about their job.

Controllers tend not to be.......how can you get excited about driving blips around a screen in a dark room. They get their licence on a plate compared to alot of pilots, and their motivation for doing the job is very different.

I'd say 50% of controllers are in it for the money, 45% are in it for the power trip......the remaning 5% are in it for the love of it. It's quite dissapointing really.

[flower]

Booke23 ,
I have to disagree with the majority of your post.
The majority of ATCOs and certainly those who post on here are passionate about their work. You only have to look at the posts about do you like your job and would you do it again.

In it for money, well you can get a lot better paid work with half the hassle.

Pilots passionate about their jobs, well I think they probably fall into very similar categories to most ATCOs, I know so many ( most of my friends are aircrew) some days they have a good day others they have a bad one, but in the main like the majority of us they wouldn't want to do anything else.

Are we arrogant, well if we didn't have that degree of arrogance I don't think we could do the job we do.

Do I feel inadequate ? yeah right :hmm:

[Radar]

booke23

Like flower, I would strongly disagree on your take on ATCOs motivation. Or at least I do for the moment. What worries me about the direction the profession is currently taking (at least in my little corner) is that new recruits approach it as 'driving blips around a screen' albeit in not-so-dark rooms. I find it disquieting ..... or maybe I'm just getting old!

[Scott Voigt]

Book;

30 years ago I would have said yes, I would have missed the charm. Today probably not, considering the lack of profesionalism on the RT and the constant non concern for anyone else in the air except for themselves. I've actually been told when advising an aircrew unable on a request to move the the other traffic? <sigh> I see it as a dumbing down of all of aviation and I tire of it. I still take the time to work as an Aviation Safety Counselor and teach classes to airman about airmanship and the use of the National Airspace System. The good news is that there are still those out there who do have a passion for it and it shows, it however is becoming a minority and it is quite a shame.

Oh as to controllers only having 5% who show for just a paycheck. I would suspect that you haven't shown up in an ATC facility very much, nor if you did, stuck around to actually spend time with the ATCO's instead of the suits...

regards

Scott

[brain fade]

Lets face it boys. You ATCO types are all frustrated pilots. Once upon a time they let you do a PPL but nowadays.... shucks thats far too expensive. So stay in your chairs with your coffee. It's much safer!

[tobzalp]

Haha. What do you call an ATC with half a brain and a small Dick? A Pilot.

[brain fade]

You call him 'tobzalp'.:rolleyes:

[tobzalp]

Holy ****! The I know you are but what am I defence! Smooth. Best i give it away.:yuk:

[Radar]

brain fade

"Lets face it boys. You ATCO types are all frustrated pilots"

In your dreams my friend :D . Had the pleasure of a jump seat ride to Dublin and Skavsta earlier this year. Great day out, extremely informative and a couple of very professional, engaging gentlemen to boot. Would I want to do four sector days like that for a living? Not on your life. For those "frustrated " pilots amongst us there is ample opportunity to relieve the frustration. The unit at which I'm based includes guys engaged in a spectrum of flying activities including microlights, gliding, classic aircraft formation flying, aerobatics, Citation operation and helicopter operations in the Arctic.

But then again, in some quarters, real flying only consists of multiple jets and then mostly in a straight line.

[DirtyPierre]

Never been a frustrated pilot....

plenty of them around and they aren't in ATC!

[Uncommon Sense]

Frustrated Pilot?

No. But I deal with (what sounds to be) many of them every day. And that is before they suffer my vectors and speed control! Many they must be really pissed off when they spend their 25 minutes on the tarmac and then launch back the way they came only to hear my voice again!

Do I miss flying in crap weather with crappier passengers for crappy money? Sometimes. Thats why I have my own aircraft that I fly in great weather, with a great passenger, when and where I want to.

Frustrated pilot? No sir.

But I sure know a few.

[Dominic Nortney]

Maybe they have the right to be arrogant both pilots and controllers. For without controllers there would be no pilots because they would all be dead because of mid air's, but without pilots there would be no planes and in turn no jobs for controllers. They each hold each other up in a large level of responsibility.

[brain fade]

Sorry about that wind up post chaps;) Tell you what tho', there ain't any pilots who really really wish they were air traffickers!
Personally I'd rather be a drug trafficker!:p

[Jerricho]

Tell you what tho', there ain't any pilots who really really wish they were air traffickers!

And given some of the bad storms we've had round here in the past couple of weeks, the feeling is certainly mutual ;) ;)

[dawn raider]

Radar,

as someone who's done most of the flying you mention before I retired to the airlines I'd only mention that it may be much easier doing this type of flying, but one day every year or so I reckon I earn EVERY CENT - all for just that one flight.

the rest of the time it's coffee and Bullsh*t.:ok:

the chaps in terminal control areas seem to have those days EVERY day. bugger that for a game of soldiers. No thanks.

D.R.

[Radar]

dawn raider,

Couldn't agree more. Holds true on both sides of the RT. Some days you earn your annual salary at one sitting.


Have a safe one !

[ShyTorque]

As a pilot I personally find no reason to feel either feel inadequate or superior to an ATCO.

ATCOs do their job, I do mine. Sometimes their job is easier than mine, sometimes not, especially bearing in mind that I have only one aircraft to deal with, whilst sometimes they have many. I try to do my job to the best of my professional ability, without making theirs more difficult. We are all trying to achieve the same thing at the end of the day, namely to move aircraft safely from A to B, are we not?

Arrogant folk exist in all professions and trades. Some of them feel the need to slag off others, possibly to bolster their own feelings of self worth and to overcome their underlying sense of inadequacy.

I find the best defence is to have the inner confidence to turn away and avoid arrogant people without getting involved in any argument. They usually aren't worth more than a shrug of the shoulders. :hmm:

[viaEGLL]

brain fade just by reading your post i think you must be one of those ? Oh what are they called?? ***holes!!

[Lon More]

Brain Fade - the name says it all.:E

[BALIX]

Can't speak for the rest of the world but at least UK ATCOs aren't in the least bit arrogant. Well, apart from the LACC boys of course. Oh, and TC, what an arrogant bunch they are.

Well, at least MY unit doesn't have any arrogant controllers. Apart from D Watch. And maybe C Watch. Come to think of it, E and B Watch have a few.

Well I know for a FACT that my watch is arrogance free. Mind you, :mad: is a bit arrogant, as is :mad: and :mad: and :mad: ....

Well, at leas I'M not arrogant, unlike the rest of you sad losers out there :ouch: :}

[AyrTC]

Balix you may think I'm arrogant by being on C watch ( I think I am a very sensitive controller ) BUT AT LEAST I'M NOT A SLAPHEAD:eek: :eek: :eek:

AyrTC:ok:

[BALIX]

Ayr TC

Neither am I.

Oh bollocks, that's my cover blown :oh: