Flying suits & GA pilots

[aluminium persuader]

Flying-suited GA pilots have long been generally regarded as being rather "sad", possibly "never stood a chance of ever being, but always wannabe fighter-pilots".

Whether that's true or not, given that an a/c crash is likely to be nastier than the average car-wreck and much more likely to involve flames, since Nomex suits (mil-surplus and other) are widely available for not much money who don't more folk wear them?

You may be teased about looking like a numpty, but I recently saw some photos of air-crash victims; some had died, some survived. Some were civvy & some were mil. The point being made was that protective and appropriate clothing made a HUGE difference in surviveability of a crash and, if survived an equally huge difference in burn injuries. Seemingly small things also helped, for instance;

Cotton, not nylon
Leather, not PVC
Long sleeves/legs, not short.

The photos have been preying on my mind since I saw them - that's how powerful they are. Yet I have a flying-suit, hardly worn, hanging up behind me as I write. I last wore one regularly when I spent some time wandering around the USA with a C150 and a tent, but folk out there thought I was being fairly sensible.

I was single then, but now I fly with my wife & children with less protection.

I would be very, very interested to know other peoples thoughts on this.

ap.

[Zlin526]

I only wear a 'flying suit' if I'm flying something either oily, or where I need lotsa pockets, which normally means something old or military. However, even if I am flying something looking like the airborne equivalent of a Bentley, I DO wear clothing that is made of 100% cotton. And I always wear flying gloves, even in a Cessna.

Makes me cringe when I see pilots wearing polyester fleeces and plastic trainers to fly in:uhoh:

[shortstripper]

I always wear my flying suit when flying open cockpit as it looks less daft doing and affords the protection you say. In the Falconar though it would look stupid! I do wear natural materials however, but then I tend to anyway.

SS

I suppose the same could be said of parachutes!

[Mike Cross]

I do wear natural materials however, but then I tend to anyway.

SS

I suppose the same could be said of parachutes! Mmmmmmmmmm!!!! Silk. How sensual!:p

Mike

[aluminium persuader]

Interesting.

Although I no longer live there, I am a Darzet lad & I was in Bournemouth when the TB10 went down off the end of the runway. I had planned to take the family to Alice in Wonderland that morning, but the weather was so good we went to Monkey World instead.

A "spam can".
A puddle-jumper.
A very innocuous aeroplane.

I spent a lot of time flying a TB9 from Bournemouth.

The TB10 crashed onto the car-park access road, and the visitors to the family theme-park got to see the rear-seat passenger burn to death.

:\

[BroomstickPilot]

I'm with aluminium persuader on this.

The main problem with flying suits, so far as I'm concerned is that they are all so military-looking and all made in one piece. No wonder people laugh at the flying suit wearer when he/she climbs out of a Pa28 in such attire.

A flying suit has three functions; as an overall, a source of extra storage pockets and as fire protection.

First of all, where there are aeroplanes there is oil. You invariably get your trouser legs spashed even when just checking the engine oil level. I'm sick of having to use dry-cleaning fluid to remove oil from my pants.

If you are sufficiently thorough as to get down on your knees to examine the U/C and the underside of the aircraft during pre-flight, you get grass stains.

I always wish I had extra pockets, if only for a torch and the extra spectacles my licence requires that I should carry.

Many aeroplanes have the fuel tank in the nose, right behind the engine. If you do have a crash, the first thing to arrive at the scene of the accident is the propeller, then the red hot engine, then the fuel tank - and then you've guessed it - the pilot! All in a heap together. What a combination.

In the summer, it can be too hot to wear a one piece flying suit. You may only wish to wear the pants with a nomex shirt (that racing drivers can already buy). For a female pilot, a one piece flying suit is a nuisance when she wishes to use the loo.

In the winter, aerodromes are cold windy places. A windproof suit with (pure) woolies worn underneath is a good idea. Most glider pilots are so attired for that reason.

I totally agree with aluminium persuader in regard to synthetics. Those of us who remember the Falklands War will remember that burn injuries to naval personnel were very much worse because of the polycotton uniforms they had been wearing. Those shiny satin like nylon flying jackets are a daft thing to wear, (as also are the equally daft cheap synthetic navy blue uniforms the instructors wear all day every day).

If flying suits were designed with the flair and colour of the suits available to amateur racing and rally drivers, everybody would want one.

Gloves too are a good idea, even if only because handling a yoke with slippery sweaty hands is unpleasant. If you have to escape from a burning aeroplane, you will need your hands to remove your headset and seat belt, open the hatch and climb out.

Finally remember that most of the Piper range only have one hatch. If the occupant of the front passenger seat is injured in a non-fatal crash, he/she may be very slow to vacate the aircraft. If you are in the left hand seat, your egress may take far longer than you think.

Broomstick.

[Evil J]

And if you look at the accident stats, survivability following a crash is significantly increased if the occupants are wearing helmets. I guess its a toss up between comfort and protection, I dont wear my leathers on my bike when its too hot-knowing full well if i fall off its gonna really hurt; but IMHO its worth the risk to not broil!

It would seem eminently sensible to wear a nomex suit and flying gloves, helmet etc in every aircraft, but for many that would detract from the experience.

[Rallye Driver]

I have some first-hand experience of all this as I was the pilot of the force-landed Yak mentioned in Genghis's recent thread about soft helmets.

When I had the engine failure I was lucky that the blown plug core didn't set fire to the ignition harness and fill the cockpit with smoke, or worse, start to burn the aircraft. When I had to force land in a small paddock after noticing power lines obstructing the flightpath into my chosen field, the aircraft hit a fence post which ruptured the port fuel tank. Fortunately, there was no fire.

I was wearing a nomex flying suit and nomex winter jacket, helmet, flying boots and gloves. The helmet certainly saved my life. I didn't realise I had struck my head on the instrument panel coaming hard enough to split the shell in two places. I thought the reason iwas spitting out bits of broken teeth was because my chin had impacted the stick.

The helmet meant that I wasn't knocked out and the neck pad protected me against whiplash. (The main reason I got the helmet was that if I had to bale out and hit the tail, I would have a reasonable chance of remaining conscious.) If everything had gone up in flames, I would have had a few more seconds to get out because I was wearing full protective clothing.

We all think it won't happen to us. But sometimes it does. And, depending on what decisions you make, it may or may not work out as you would like. It makes sense to wear appropriate clothing. OK, maybe a flying suit does look odd in a PA28, but wearing non-synthetic clothing doesn't. Flying boots look OK and offer proper protection and support, which trainers wouldn't in an emergency. Likewise gloves.

Yet look at the adverts for the pilot shops - nylon flying jackets, polycotton flying suits offering some protection against oil but none whatsoever against fire. People buy this stuff specifically for flying, but why isn't it manufactured in suitable materials? And what about those people who wear high-viz clothing in the cockpit? If you have to wear such garments for operational reasons, do so outside!

Flying suits are available in other colours apart from gro-bag green, Black looks quite smart. You don't have to put any patches and badges on if you don't want to and if you don't have the knee pad pockets, it looks relatively unabtrusive.

I know a lot of people don't want to look like airline captains or Red Arrows pilots when they take to the air. But if I hadn't been wearing that sort of kit, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this.

Fly safe.

RD :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

In my flying instructor days I wore cotton trousers, RAF flying boots and an RAF cold weather flying jacket (not in summer) plus the service issue flying gloves. I suffered the snide looks and occasional gibes for it.

At weekends I flew Grob109b motor gliders for the Air Cadets and that required the full RAF flying kit minus helmet. That was how professionals dressed and was based on many decades of past bitter experience. I couldn't bring myself to fly in polyester and t-shirt during the week teaching PPL's.

I never needed the kit in the end. But you never know.

Its just like people on motorbikes in Jeans and T-Shirt and Helmet. You tend to think - Pillock!

Light aircraft are really not very different in terms of severity or frequency of accident.

Cheers

WWW

[18greens]

This is a good thread and since the most of us fly stuff that deliberately routes the fuel through the cabin maybe we should fly with more fire protection. I have had to wear gro bags to fly a couple of times and I think they are comfy warm and generally great.

Anyway my question is, if the uniform the school makes you wear is of the airline variety (poly cotton short sleeve shirt with smart trousers, usually M&S nylon wool mix) what options do you have to wear natural materials and meet the looking like an airline pilot criteria. I know if I look really hard I will find 100% wool trousers that fit the bill.

Does anywhere sell 100% cotton long sleeve airline shirts that you can iron?

[Chilli Monster]

A further comment which people seemed not to have "cottoned" onto ;)

It's alright wearing as much flame retardent material as possible, but why then do so many people (It's getting more and more noticeable) spoil it by wearing a High Vis waistcoat over the top that'll nicely melt into you given half the chance.

If you have to wear it airside then so be it - but take it off when you don't!

[aluminium persuader]

Wow!

I was expecting to get lambasted by folk telling me I was daft. I'm amazed at the amount of support, and here's something else- my wife, an ex-FAA WRN weapons tech, thought about this when I asked her if she would wear a flying-suit for all of ten seconds. She would.

And let's face it; regardless of what anyone says, we would only look daft until
a) the majority of GA pilots are wearing them, or
b) the worst happens, and we emerge through the flames with the whole family intact.

I do have some memories, though, from my blue-suit days of seeing folk I knew to be non-pilots suited up, ray-bans and all, in Tesco. Now that IS sad!

The drawback is that now I'll have to cough up for 3 more suits! Anyone know where I can get some really small ones (age 5 & 2)?
Also, I'm sure there must be a supplier of nongreen ones, but where?

Thank you, guys & gals, for your input. I look forward to seeing more nomex accross E Anglia.

ap
:ok: :ok:

[youngskywalker]

You used to be able to by the german airforce flying suits which were quite smart, they came in different colours such as green, black or orange etc...but now that I think back I'm not sure if they were the nomex flame retardent type or not.

I also used to fly at weekends teaching cadets and we were all issued with full RAF flying kit, felt bit silly at first but then we all looked the same and it did look smart and offered good protection....mind you it was gliders and they tend not to burn....:\

[Onan the Clumsy]

Excellent thread. This has got me thinking.

I fly jumpers occasionally and I have set a personal limit that I won't do it without a parachute. It seems that I should think about what clothing I wear too (though it's about 100 degrees in Texas at the moment :( ).

[Flash0710]

b) the worst happens, and we emerge through the flames with the whole family intact.

Wow! Do you have a light you respond to too when chief o'hara calls? jump onto a crash mat headfirst it won't stop you having a broken neck wearing nomex will offer SOME protection depending how many times you have washed it.

Try cotton wool dipped in kevlar:p

[Pitts2112]

I wear a nomex flying suit and nomex gloves when fllying the Pitts, but not when flying the Taylorcraft. Why? For a couple of reasons. One has to do with loose articles in the cockpit and no storage in the Pitts. A flying suit has plenty of pockets for everything I need during a flight, and it keeps them all secure. There's also no heater in the Pitts so a flying suit keeps me a little warmer.

But with the flame protection issue, I look at the energy involved. The Pitts comes across the fence at about 90 mph and the fuel tank sits right over your knees. At that speed, I'm more likely to cockup a landing or have an accident with higher energy and possibility of breaking things up. The Taylorcraft comes across the hedge at about 55 mph and finally touches down at around 40 mph. Add any kind of a headwind and you can see it reaches the ground with considerably less energy and is much more forgiving. So I reckon the chances of getting into any real trouble is much more limited. For the same reasons I wear a helmet in the Pitts, not in the Taylorcraft.

As an aside, nomex is inherently flameproof - it's intrinsic in the fabric itself and isn't the result of a treatment of any kind; meaning there's nothing you can do to it (including washing it every day for 10 years) which will make it any less flameproof than the day it was made.

Pitts2112

[Human Factor]

Keep in mind also that Nomex is flameproof but it isn't heatproof. Hence the fact that the air force and co wear those sexy cotton long johns underneath the flying suit. It will give you a few more seconds.

[Chippik]

Aluminium Persuader, I have one made by Jays Racewear http://www.jaysracewear.co.uk/

dont know the cost but its very nice, made of Nomex 3, black and neatly tailored
What about PPRUNE flight suits anyone!!

[Evil J]

WWW - I think it is interesting that when we see someone riding a motorbike in jeans and a t- shirt we think "Pillock", yet when we see someone wearing lots of good protective gear to fly an aircraft we tend to think "Pillock" . Something of a double standard.

I think a balance of of nomex shirts and possibly tailored trousers is an excellent idea, and prune ones would be brilliant-at least we could recognise each other at fly-ins!! I'm amazed these arent marketed at the moment, I would have thought flying instructors and the like would lap them up.

[youngskywalker]

Slightly off topic but while we are on GA safety, I would like to see proper full harnesses fitted to all light aicraft instead of those crap airline passenger lap straps with the inadequate diagonal shoulder strap. Gliders all see to have proper seat restraints so I don't see why light aircraft can't. of course if you own the aircraft then I guess you can get one fitted but club aircraft should have them too.

That together with sensible clothing and fuel guages that work and I'm happy!

YS

[tmmorris]

A few companies (e.g. Flightstore) offer them but many are poly-cotton...!

The Flying Shop, Biggin Hill, offers Nomex in various colours (http://www.ekmpowershop.com/ekmps/shops/flyingshop/index.asp?function=DISPLAYCAT&catid=41). Also lots of choice here: http://www.flightsuits.com/products.html but they are in the US so you would need to ask them about shipping.

Tim

[aluminium persuader]

Yeah, ok Flash- maybe I waxed a little too lyrical! :O

All the comments are very interesting, though, because after mmfph years in aviation I have yet (very thankfully) to witness a serious accident, let alone be involved in one. If it does happen, however, I don't want to be left saying "I wish..."

I quite agree about the harnesses. I've seen Vauxhall Novas with better straps.

:cool:

[MLS-12D]

nomex is inherently flameproof - it's intrinsic in the fabric itself and isn't the result of a treatment of any kind.Yes, quite correct.

there's nothing you can do to it (including washing it every day for 10 years) which will make it any less flameproof than the day it was made.Technically true, but it should be noted that Nomex garments are not intended for unlimited use, and should be replaced every so often (that's why one sees so many ex-USAF and RAF flight suits for sale at cheap prices). The fabric does not lose its fire-resistant properties, but it does wear out (like any other fabric).

Speaking of fire resistancy: it's also noteworthy that Nomex is not fireproof, and will ignite in higher temperatures (above 700 degrees, IIRC). Although it is certainly better than many other materials (and much safer than polyester), it only buys you a few seconds in the event of a fire.

The best source for reliable information on fire resistancy is the auto racing community: where it is taken rather more seriously than in aviation. Additionally, magazines like NATA Skylines (published by the
North American Trainer Association (http://www.northamericantrainer.org/)) and Warbirds (published by the EAA Warbirds of America (http://www.warbirds-eaa.org/)) occasionally feature good articles on protective clothing, including reprints of U.S. Navy safety bulletins, etc. See e.g. "Do You Know Nomex?", NATA Skylines, April 1987, page 20

[Noah Zark.]

I hope you don't mind me mentioning this here, it is rather off-thread, but seeing as it is an excellent thread in which various safety issues are being mentioned, here goes.
Many light aircraft I see have a powder-type fire extinguisher in the cockpit / cabin. It is important that you realise that if you discharge a powder extinguisher inside the cabin of an aircraft whilst in flight, the effect will be one of probably instantaneous disablement of anyone in the cabin.
By its very nature, the powder suffocates the fire, and everything else along with it.
I don't pretend to know what the answer to this enigma is, and I am uncertain what the position is with the likes of Halon these days.
I would recommend for those of you who haven't seen or experienced the effects of a powder extinguisher, that you may singly or in groups, clubs or whatever, buy a cheap one purely to discharge it somewhere safe, and judge for yourselves.
Again, sorry to hijack the thread, but it is a concern of mine.
N.Z.

[aluminium persuader]

That had never crossed my mind. I guess CO2 would be the same, though perhaps it would take a little more time. I had noticed that in most light a/c they're under the seat which, post forced landing, could well be buckled on top of it. Not much use if you can't get it out.

(Can't think where I've heard that before!:D )

[SKYYACHT]

Gotta be honest....

Grew up with the RAFVR(T) mentality - had to wear a full RAF Mk 14 Flying suit and issue flying boots (Wish I still had them!) and gloves ------ for flying Viking Gliders at a VGS. May seem poseur material, but the gloves were cut to ribbons within a season, after hauling cables, gliders, and the like. We used to roast in summer, and often complained about the "Growbags" that we wore. We were just told that these were RAF aircrew issue, and to get on with it.

I still fly wearing gloves, and a flying suit if something old or military (Firefly, Chippie, etc) but if I am driving a Warrior or Club Cessna, then I tend to wear cotton - long sleeved shirts, chinos, cotton socks, and stout leather shoes.

At work, I deliver Flight Safety Awareness courses, and we advise that stout shoes are essential, and nylons are a complete NoNo... Have you seen the injuries after man made fibres melt into the flesh.... Not nice I assure you.

Like Evil J (Hi MAte - been biking recently?) I too ride, and have full leathers for long serious ride outs. I realise that statistically I stand more chance of being involved in an accident whilst commuting to work, but I travel at very early times of day, so Leather jacket and jeans are the norm. I would NEVER wear shorts on a bike. Road Rash is nasty too.

So, I say - Wear your flight suit if you want. Yes, I am sure that some folks may regard your attire as odd - but who cares? You will look more odd wearing skin grafts if it does go pear shaped.

Cheers

;)

[LowNSlow]

Seatbelts and extinguishers are a very interesting topic. My ancient brass fire extinguisher is passed as healthy by weighing it. I suspect it is the original (1946) unit or at least from that era. I have been assured by those that know that it WILL work in the event of it being required. Maybe I should change the mountings (placed conveniently under the passengers thighs) for one that will hold my far lighter car type extinguisher. I used to have a Halon extinguisher in my car as I have seen them demonstrated and they are very effective. Sadly due to greenhouse gases etc etc they have been replaced by less efffective fire stoppers. I have had to use a dry powder extinguisher in anger once when I was working on my my car and it went whoof. One thing I wasn't aware of at the time is that some (all??) dry powder extinguishers are "one shot", ie; you pull the trigger and it discharges until empty. I ended up standing in a huge cloud of blue powder that was very disorientating, I had to throw the extinguisher as far away from me as possible and get out of the cloud into fresh air. Apparently me and the whole front of the car were invisible. The thought of discharging such a cloud in an enclosed cockpit doesn't bear thinking about. Forget IMC training, you won't be able to see the instrument panel! :uhoh:

I was putting the old Auster through stalls, steep turns, dives, climbs etc yesterday evening and thought, "now I see why you have to fit a four point harness to do aeros in the Auster". The existing lap & diagonal setup does not make you feel secure while executing anything that involves even mild negative G. :yuk:

I keep meaning to buy a flying suit as Annie the Auster is an oily beast with limited stowage when two up. It will definitely be a Nomex one when I get it. I always wear gloves in the cockpit as everything is sharp plus I need the grip of leather on the prop blade for starting the old girl. :ok:

[waldopepper42]

I used to wear a flying suit all the time in the Chipmunk, because I couldn't afford to keep replacing my other clothes!

It's almost impossible to do a proper pre-flight without getting oil on you, and ours had the additional habit of dripping oil onto the pilot's left leg during aeros! (Eventually traced to a leaky junction to the oil pressure feed pipe).

[MLS-12D]

Halon is definitely the only way to go; if you can get it.

I have no idea what the position is in the UK, but here (1) Halon is banned due to environmental concerns; however, (2) there is an exemption for aviation use, so Halon remains quite legal for cockpit extinguishers, fitted engine compartment systems, etc.

Perhaps you have a similar exemption available to you? Such provisions are often rather obscure and little-known (but well worth tracking down).

P.S. to LowNSlow: if you'll be getting oil all over your flight suit, perhaps you might as well save money and buy a cheap cotton one rather than paying extra for Nomex ... the oil would tend to make fire resistancy a rather moot point, wouldn't it?

[LowNSlow]

MLS you have a very good point there :uhoh: It's not copious amounts of the black stuff, it's just general grimey bits but I suppose it all builds up to a flammable patch in the end.

[MLS-12D]

I'm no expert, but I believe that Nomex garments should be kept reasonably clean (especially of flammable substances) if their fire resistancy is to be effective.

Perhaps you could try keeping a set of cheap coveralls in the hanger for pre-flighting, post-flight cleaning, etc., and wear a Nomex flight suit only for flying (hopefully there isn't too much oil spraying around in mid-flight). Just a thought.

[SR20flyDoc]

What is really anoying to me is that most pilot shops sell

'The original airforce issue M-etc flying jacket, made out of 100% nylon'

Not every pilot knows about Nomex.

Amsafe is selling a kind of airbag seatbelt. They are now standard on Cirrus aircraft

Because most times smoke will kill you before the flames, I always carry a smoke-hood.

S.

[LowNSlow]

MLS good point. I've got some of my old offshore ovies in the garage, maybe I'll transfer a pair to the hangar but not the bright orange North Sea ones! Hang on, THEY are Nomex! Unfortunately they are also liberally splashed with paint after the last decorating session!

[FormationFlyer]

For suits 2 of us at my club have just bought suits from here...

http://www.elmers.co.uk/aviation/

Definitely better than the RAF issue ones, decent size map pocket 60x40nm on a 1/2mil. nice padding where the straps normally cut in...

[MLS-12D]

I think you'll be happy with those suits. Provided that the correct laundering instructions (which are essentially the same as for Nomex clothing) are followed, Proban fire resistancy treatment is guaranteed to hold up for a minimum of 50 wash cycles: which should be plenty for most applications. And IIRC, Proban is actually superior to Nomex in some other respects.

P.S. Anyone who thinks that the prospect of burns following aircraft crashes is 'no big deal' should read Gary Pomerantz, Nine Minutes, Twenty Seconds: The Tragedy & Triumph of ASA Flight 529 (2001).

[Boing_737]

As an aside to the halon thing going on here, I work in telecoms where halon was widely used as a fire extinguisher in computer rooms. Now banned, 'cos you can't breath in halon:uhoh:

[IFHP]

I wear jeans and t-shirts + fleece if cold .Baseball hat if sunny ( back to front if in open cockpit )

I wear the same if driving a car which is far riskier. Just look at all the car accidents daily yet we dont wear race suits and helmets.
Just think of a barely trained nutter driving towards you at closing speeds of 150 mph and passing within inches !!!!

take reasonable precautions by all means but I think military type overalls are great for posing..:O::

[MLS-12D]

I wear jeans and t-shirts + fleece if cold You know best what suits you; but fleece (i.e., polyester) is the worst thing that you can wear if there is a possibility of fire. If you like the warmth and feel, treat yourself and buy a Nomex fleece (see e.g. Chuck Roast (http://www.chuckroast.com/fire-safety/nomexfleece.php), which has quite an impressive video clip demonstrating the fire resistancy of their products).

I wear the same if driving a car which is far riskier. Just look at all the car accidents daily yet we dont wear race suits and helmets.I am not interested in getting into an argument; you are of course free to believe, and do, whatever you want.

However, least anyone else be misled, I have to point out that the chances of a serious accident in a light aircraft are significantly greater than the chance of a motor vehicle accident (all the statistics to the contrary are for airline traffic, which is another kettle of fish entirely). Additionally, the chances of being burned in a post-crash fire are substantially greater in an airplane than in a car (compare the number of exit points between, e.g., a Ford sedan and a Piper Warrior).

who owns the Piper Arrow at Cambridge in the colours of the 'red arrows'.....now that is sad!!Not my cup of tea, but lighten up. Someone is merely having fun and harmlessly enjoying themselves; that's what recreational aviation is all about. ;)

[aluminium persuader]

Young skywalker - the only girl I want to impress is my 2-year-old daughter, and I'll probably do that best by taking reasonable steps to look after us all. Jedi Master the aluminium persuader is. Hope Old Skywalker you eventually become!

:cool:

MLS - quite right!

[youngskywalker]

Oh no, sorry! I didnt mean it to sound the way it did, I think flying suits are a great idea, i just meant no good for posing...oh never mind! :\

P.S this is like text messaging, it can get you into all sorts of bother!

[egbt]

737

As an aside to the halon thing going on here, I work in telecoms where halon was widely used as a fire extinguisher in computer rooms. Now banned, 'cos you can't breath in halon

Not the case I'm afraid. Halon was used in computer rooms, AFV's and in other enclosed spaces because you could breath in it, provided there was some 02 left after the fire had its share. It was banned for most new installations as it's a CFC.

(Used to work in the industry!)

[MLS-12D]

youngskywalker, don't sweat it ...

It's easy to put your foot in your mouth when contributing to these forums; we've all done it.

[tonker]

If the smoke usually gets you first, do all those who wear egoflage also take a smoke hood?

I average 5-8 hours a day as an instructor and ensure i wear comfortable clothing that puts me in the right frame of mind, something that would do far more for my safety than rolling up dessed like Mav or Goose and then spending the day sweating my nuts off in flammable cotton.

Good point made about driving to the airfield in standard clothing, but in a far more hazardous arena.

[MLS-12D]

Smoke hoods would probably be a good idea in some aircraft (i.e., 'spam cans'). Personally, I usually fly aircraft with canopies that can be opened or jettisoned.

driving to the airfield ... a far more hazardous arenaIncorrect. See generally "The most dangerous part of gliding ..." (http://www.wgc.mb.ca/sac/freeflight/98_01.pdf), Aerokurier, February 1993, reprinted 1/98 Free Flight, pages 7, 8 and 18. Although aimed at soaring, similar facts apply to flight in light airplanes.

egoflage ... dressed like Mav or GooseYour sneering comments have no place in this thread. You're free to wear whatever clothing you wish, but please don't ridicule those who choose otherwise; it's simply discourteous. :ugh:

[Lisa Simpson]

Went to lunch yesterday and walked passed all the visiting pilots and noted one was proudly sitting legs akimber, wearing a bebadged flying suit. Didn't really think much more of it as we have some ex RAF jets and a Harvard.

As i was driving out i witnessed the pilot sat i his Robin having pre departure heroic photos taken. Odd i thought....he'd taken off his flying suit to go flying!!!!!!!!

What sought of mental state do you have to be in to don a flying suit to walk to a club house for lunch?

[Small Rodent Driver]

Now then.

Sounds like there could be a market for a natty two piece Nomex combo of jacket and trousers. Nice shade of dark green perhaps. Couple that with a Nomex shirt and clip on tie and hey presto! anonymity.

Nobody would know whether you were a safety conscious pilot or just moonlighting for Eddie Stobart.:D

[Genghis the Engineer]

Coming to this slightly cold, but as a known flying suit wearer.

- What good reason is there NOT to wear one? They are comfortable, keep your clothes clean, have pockets in the right place, and (in extremis) may aid your safety.

The badge issue, and the RAF-green issue are stylistic. I confess that I wear an RAF suit and it has several badges on it. There are two reasons for this. Firstly I have several that I was issued with and haven't worn out yet, secondly I wear the same suits for work flying, where the badges have some significance. I could take them off - but why?


When the green ones wear out (always supposing Lizzie's enterprises doesn't invite me back, which is possible but probably unlikely) I shall buy a different colour.

But in the meantime, of-course many other people wear green growbags who have never been in a military cockpit. This is presumably because they are cheaply and readily available second hand, very comfortable and hardwearing, and perhaps a lot of PPLs like that bit of tacit oneness with the most professional flying organisation in the world?

G

[MLS-12D]

What good reason is there NOT to wear one? The only good reason that I know of is that they are hot in the summer. Personally, that is an inconvenience that I am prepared to put up with.

that bit of tacit oneness with the most professional flying organisation in the worldThis is not the first time that Genghis has made this sort of bombastic reference to the RAF. :rolleyes:

Which air force (or non-air force company, unit or association, come to that) is "the most professional flying organisation in the world" is of course highly subjective; and assuming that the RAF has no competition for that title is just plain stupid.

England has many great traditions of which it may rightly be proud; but the reputation of presumptious arrogance isn't something that anyone with any sense would want to perpetuate. It's time to move on (the Empire is no more, and thank God for that!).

Please, let us have no more of this sort of mindless parochialism. :yuk:

[J.A.F.O.]

No, sorry, Genghis was right.

[egbt]

bombastic reference to the RAF

Hardly that I think.

and assuming that the RAF has no competition for that title is just plain stupid

Who assumed that?

I think we are allowed our little illusions, of course this is not one of them :E

I suspect the pilots from colonies who have shown such distinguished service with the RAF would agree and probably understand the Britsh sense of humour better than MLS-12D

[Genghis the Engineer]

Glancing at my logbook, I have at various times been in a professional capacity on board aircraft with Captains serving at that time in the British Army, RAF, RCAF, USN, RN, USAF, Flygvapnet, Armee de L'Air, Royal Thai Air Force, RAAF. Also civilian Pilots employed or qualified by UK-MoD, Westland Helicopters, Cranfield and Embry-Riddle Universities, Slingsby, Rand Kar, Air Atlantique, several Eastern European companies, Britten-Norman, P&M, PFA and BMAA. I've also flown as a passenger with airlines from BA to CSA to Aeroflot, and in various roles with more flying instructors, at more flying schools, than frankly I've any intention to count or list. I have logged 93 aircraft types as operating crew, around half of those in command.

On that basis, it is my considered opinion that the RAF is the most professional flying organisation in the world - this doesn't take away from the fact that most of the organisations I've listed above are also extremely professional, but somebody has to be first.

Sorry MLS, but that's just the way it is.

G

(Mind you, I'd love to spend a few days with the RAFDS, about whom I've heard impressive things).

[Hold27Left]

Genghis the Engineer - Well said :D


Remember people.. its better to be safe than sorry ..!

[M609]

As an aside to the halon thing going on here, I work in telecoms where halon was widely used as a fire extinguisher in computer rooms. Now banned, 'cos you can't breath in halon

We used to have a CO2 system in our approach control room. (Military, basement, EMP secure with 4M thick walls), but the health and safety people concluded that the chance of us getting out if it fired (alive) was about NIL.
Brilliant idea to install in the first place..... :rolleyes:

I confess to being a PPL student with a sage green suit on order. Now....if I can find the badges I wore on the M98 uniform from the RNoAF when I was deployed last winter, I will complete the poser look! :D

[MLS-12D]

it is my considered opinion ... that's just the way it is.Ah; now I see. Your opinion is definitive. :rolleyes:

I suspect the pilots from colonies who have shown such distinguished service with the RAF would agree and probably understand the Britsh sense of humour better than MLS-12DOne of my grandfathers (English-born) served in the RCAF. He would not agree.

"Colonies", indeed. Some :mad: sense of humour.

one-punch-mickey: no disrespect to Scotland (the Brave). I am well aware that England and Britain are not one and the same, and that many Scots have played an important role in the RAF. However, Scots have long suffered from English arrogance, and I didn't want to include you in my complaint.

this is essentially a British websiteThat was not previously known to me. Now that I have been advised, I will no longer contribute to it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I believe that the correct term for states such as Canada or Australia is "Self Governing Dominions", we no longer have many colonies (although most of those, like Gibraltar and the Falklands seem quite happy about it).


Now can we get back to talking about (*&*(&(*( flying suits?

G

(Scots born, of English ancestors, consider myself British, and wear flying suits on most occasions I'm in an aeroplane. And anything I post on here is my opinion, I've nobody else's to give).

[G-KEST]

Hello there,

Back after a spell in the USA and a saga of response to CAA charging consultations. Now for a bit of light relief.

In our Skybolt I normally wear a bonedome and a flying suit, usually a surplus USAF since their tailors accomodate my portly but vertically challenged frame better than those who supply the RAF. If display flying then I usually wear one of several very different flying suits or, on occasion, a djellabah when in character as my Arab cousin. In phenominally hot weather I have been known to fly it is a pair of shorts, sandals and a tee shirt but that is a bit stupid if only for the odd bit of lurking locking wire that just loves bare skin.

All the above is true of my flying in any open cockpit aeroplane.

In conventional cabin aircraft I wear normal (?), for me anyway, clothing and a standard headset unless, once more, when I am display flying. I then revert to the garb worn in our Skybolt.

In terms of material I prefer Nomex or equivalent but appreciate the protection is but minimal in an Avgas fire. My instructions to RFFS at airshows is that if the aircraft has been burning in the cockpit area for longer than 30 seconds then would they please first deal me a very smart blow on the head with their heaviest fire axe. Though I know one of the UK's finest plastic surgeons as a personal friend, at 67 I have no wish to suffer the utter agony of 90% third degree burns for longer than I need.

I own five bonedomes -
Two RAF Mark 1 with inner cloth helmets, oxygen mask microphone and RAF electrics.
One ex-USAF Gentex helicopter helmet with boom mike and US military standard electrics plus a convertor to civil compatibility.
One ex-USAF Gentex fighter helmet with boom mike and civil electrics.
One civil Helmets Limited Mark 10 with boom mike and civil electrics.
The last two have Headsets Inc. ANR modifications that make long trips bliss. Unless you have tried it you will not believe the difference in sound comfort levels.

I really do believe in bonedomes since, in the first of my two airshow non-landings (aka crashes), my ex-RAF Mark 1 bonedome was utterly smashed on the right side in a manner similar to the effect of hitting a boiled egg shell at breakfast. If I had been wearing a cloth or leather helmet then it would have been my skull that took the impact. I know of at least one such accident where the attractive and skilled female aerobatic pilot lived on as a complete vegetable for three years after the accident before she mercifully passed away.

It is sensible to wear clothing appropriate to the task. If others regards it as posing then so be it. My views and garb will not alter.

Cheers,

Trapper 69

[aluminium persuader]

Flew into Rougham on Sunday, and wore my flying suit this time rather than leave it decorating the back of the door in my spare room. Cooked rather in the sun that came out PM, but felt safer at least.

Here's a fast ball from the out-field:

My kids' car seats (which they need in the a/c) are lovingly crafted in plastic, polystyrene & nylon. Oh, :mad:

Now, maybe there's a market for...!

:O

[Deaf]

Is there something that can be added to cotton, wool etc as a flame retardent. I seem to recall something reasonably common (ammonium sulphate?) added to to rinse water. This was back in the days of nightdresses and kerosene heater.

[Alvin Steele]

I own a pair of RAF flying gloves for pre-flighting this was because I was fed up getting silly niggly little cuts.........(you know the sort...the tiny ones that bleed profusely all over your clothes during the flight......and you don't have an Elastoplast)
That said, I do feel self concious about them and dont wear them in flight (apart from the time I flew a 152 with an oily throttle stem)
I completely agree about the nomex suits safety merits, but I'd feel a dweeb wearing one in one of the clubs DR400's, I wouldnt have a hang-up about them in a Cub, Chippie etc etc or in any type during aero's training.....but in your regular typical spam can I would feel self concious....but thats just me.
I did like the idea of the earlier poster of nomex trousers and tops designed more for the PPL spam can drivers, deffo a market there......Transair, are you listening?

On to light aircraft risks, I may be deluding myself, but I feel a hell of alot more scared during the drive to and from the airfield than I do whilst flying.
The cost,time and effort required to learn to fly eliminates many lunatics that driving a car can't, aside from the usual suspects in dangerous driving....the boy racer, you have idiots on mobiles, drink, drugs.....taking the row they've had with their 'other halves' out onto the roads....not to mention 'visitors' to the country who haven't passed a test or are driving on their own country's license...........then there are motorbikes.


Tim.....(you didnt really think I was called Alvin did you?)

[aluminium persuader]

Know what you mean, Alvin, but the average car is much stronger that an a/c, has airbags all over and much bigger doors and much less fuel. Plus when an accident is imminent you hit the brakes to a stop you're not then going to rapidly accelerate in a downwards direction. I'd guess that most g/a accidents happen at t/o or ldg, by extension arond the 60-80kts area. Make that 80-100 mph in something resembling a citroen Dyane with large fuel tanks tucked nicely on each side, add a nasty x-wind, wet runway etc ...!

However, always look on the bright side; might never happen!

[G-KEST]

AP,
But very occasionally it does, and not always to some other guy..! I know................!!!!!
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: