Flying suits & GA pilots
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: a galaxy far, far,away...
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying suits & GA pilots
Flying-suited GA pilots have long been generally regarded as being rather "sad", possibly "never stood a chance of ever being, but always wannabe fighter-pilots".
Whether that's true or not, given that an a/c crash is likely to be nastier than the average car-wreck and much more likely to involve flames, since Nomex suits (mil-surplus and other) are widely available for not much money who don't more folk wear them?
You may be teased about looking like a numpty, but I recently saw some photos of air-crash victims; some had died, some survived. Some were civvy & some were mil. The point being made was that protective and appropriate clothing made a HUGE difference in surviveability of a crash and, if survived an equally huge difference in burn injuries. Seemingly small things also helped, for instance;
Cotton, not nylon
Leather, not PVC
Long sleeves/legs, not short.
The photos have been preying on my mind since I saw them - that's how powerful they are. Yet I have a flying-suit, hardly worn, hanging up behind me as I write. I last wore one regularly when I spent some time wandering around the USA with a C150 and a tent, but folk out there thought I was being fairly sensible.
I was single then, but now I fly with my wife & children with less protection.
I would be very, very interested to know other peoples thoughts on this.
ap.
Whether that's true or not, given that an a/c crash is likely to be nastier than the average car-wreck and much more likely to involve flames, since Nomex suits (mil-surplus and other) are widely available for not much money who don't more folk wear them?
You may be teased about looking like a numpty, but I recently saw some photos of air-crash victims; some had died, some survived. Some were civvy & some were mil. The point being made was that protective and appropriate clothing made a HUGE difference in surviveability of a crash and, if survived an equally huge difference in burn injuries. Seemingly small things also helped, for instance;
Cotton, not nylon
Leather, not PVC
Long sleeves/legs, not short.
The photos have been preying on my mind since I saw them - that's how powerful they are. Yet I have a flying-suit, hardly worn, hanging up behind me as I write. I last wore one regularly when I spent some time wandering around the USA with a C150 and a tent, but folk out there thought I was being fairly sensible.
I was single then, but now I fly with my wife & children with less protection.
I would be very, very interested to know other peoples thoughts on this.
ap.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Gone.........for good this time.
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I only wear a 'flying suit' if I'm flying something either oily, or where I need lotsa pockets, which normally means something old or military. However, even if I am flying something looking like the airborne equivalent of a Bentley, I DO wear clothing that is made of 100% cotton. And I always wear flying gloves, even in a Cessna.
Makes me cringe when I see pilots wearing polyester fleeces and plastic trainers to fly in
Makes me cringe when I see pilots wearing polyester fleeces and plastic trainers to fly in
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Norfolk, England
Age: 58
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always wear my flying suit when flying open cockpit as it looks less daft doing and affords the protection you say. In the Falconar though it would look stupid! I do wear natural materials however, but then I tend to anyway.
SS
I suppose the same could be said of parachutes!
SS
I suppose the same could be said of parachutes!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: a galaxy far, far,away...
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting.
Although I no longer live there, I am a Darzet lad & I was in Bournemouth when the TB10 went down off the end of the runway. I had planned to take the family to Alice in Wonderland that morning, but the weather was so good we went to Monkey World instead.
A "spam can".
A puddle-jumper.
A very innocuous aeroplane.
I spent a lot of time flying a TB9 from Bournemouth.
The TB10 crashed onto the car-park access road, and the visitors to the family theme-park got to see the rear-seat passenger burn to death.
Although I no longer live there, I am a Darzet lad & I was in Bournemouth when the TB10 went down off the end of the runway. I had planned to take the family to Alice in Wonderland that morning, but the weather was so good we went to Monkey World instead.
A "spam can".
A puddle-jumper.
A very innocuous aeroplane.
I spent a lot of time flying a TB9 from Bournemouth.
The TB10 crashed onto the car-park access road, and the visitors to the family theme-park got to see the rear-seat passenger burn to death.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with aluminium persuader on this.
The main problem with flying suits, so far as I'm concerned is that they are all so military-looking and all made in one piece. No wonder people laugh at the flying suit wearer when he/she climbs out of a Pa28 in such attire.
A flying suit has three functions; as an overall, a source of extra storage pockets and as fire protection.
First of all, where there are aeroplanes there is oil. You invariably get your trouser legs spashed even when just checking the engine oil level. I'm sick of having to use dry-cleaning fluid to remove oil from my pants.
If you are sufficiently thorough as to get down on your knees to examine the U/C and the underside of the aircraft during pre-flight, you get grass stains.
I always wish I had extra pockets, if only for a torch and the extra spectacles my licence requires that I should carry.
Many aeroplanes have the fuel tank in the nose, right behind the engine. If you do have a crash, the first thing to arrive at the scene of the accident is the propeller, then the red hot engine, then the fuel tank - and then you've guessed it - the pilot! All in a heap together. What a combination.
In the summer, it can be too hot to wear a one piece flying suit. You may only wish to wear the pants with a nomex shirt (that racing drivers can already buy). For a female pilot, a one piece flying suit is a nuisance when she wishes to use the loo.
In the winter, aerodromes are cold windy places. A windproof suit with (pure) woolies worn underneath is a good idea. Most glider pilots are so attired for that reason.
I totally agree with aluminium persuader in regard to synthetics. Those of us who remember the Falklands War will remember that burn injuries to naval personnel were very much worse because of the polycotton uniforms they had been wearing. Those shiny satin like nylon flying jackets are a daft thing to wear, (as also are the equally daft cheap synthetic navy blue uniforms the instructors wear all day every day).
If flying suits were designed with the flair and colour of the suits available to amateur racing and rally drivers, everybody would want one.
Gloves too are a good idea, even if only because handling a yoke with slippery sweaty hands is unpleasant. If you have to escape from a burning aeroplane, you will need your hands to remove your headset and seat belt, open the hatch and climb out.
Finally remember that most of the Piper range only have one hatch. If the occupant of the front passenger seat is injured in a non-fatal crash, he/she may be very slow to vacate the aircraft. If you are in the left hand seat, your egress may take far longer than you think.
Broomstick.
The main problem with flying suits, so far as I'm concerned is that they are all so military-looking and all made in one piece. No wonder people laugh at the flying suit wearer when he/she climbs out of a Pa28 in such attire.
A flying suit has three functions; as an overall, a source of extra storage pockets and as fire protection.
First of all, where there are aeroplanes there is oil. You invariably get your trouser legs spashed even when just checking the engine oil level. I'm sick of having to use dry-cleaning fluid to remove oil from my pants.
If you are sufficiently thorough as to get down on your knees to examine the U/C and the underside of the aircraft during pre-flight, you get grass stains.
I always wish I had extra pockets, if only for a torch and the extra spectacles my licence requires that I should carry.
Many aeroplanes have the fuel tank in the nose, right behind the engine. If you do have a crash, the first thing to arrive at the scene of the accident is the propeller, then the red hot engine, then the fuel tank - and then you've guessed it - the pilot! All in a heap together. What a combination.
In the summer, it can be too hot to wear a one piece flying suit. You may only wish to wear the pants with a nomex shirt (that racing drivers can already buy). For a female pilot, a one piece flying suit is a nuisance when she wishes to use the loo.
In the winter, aerodromes are cold windy places. A windproof suit with (pure) woolies worn underneath is a good idea. Most glider pilots are so attired for that reason.
I totally agree with aluminium persuader in regard to synthetics. Those of us who remember the Falklands War will remember that burn injuries to naval personnel were very much worse because of the polycotton uniforms they had been wearing. Those shiny satin like nylon flying jackets are a daft thing to wear, (as also are the equally daft cheap synthetic navy blue uniforms the instructors wear all day every day).
If flying suits were designed with the flair and colour of the suits available to amateur racing and rally drivers, everybody would want one.
Gloves too are a good idea, even if only because handling a yoke with slippery sweaty hands is unpleasant. If you have to escape from a burning aeroplane, you will need your hands to remove your headset and seat belt, open the hatch and climb out.
Finally remember that most of the Piper range only have one hatch. If the occupant of the front passenger seat is injured in a non-fatal crash, he/she may be very slow to vacate the aircraft. If you are in the left hand seat, your egress may take far longer than you think.
Broomstick.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And if you look at the accident stats, survivability following a crash is significantly increased if the occupants are wearing helmets. I guess its a toss up between comfort and protection, I dont wear my leathers on my bike when its too hot-knowing full well if i fall off its gonna really hurt; but IMHO its worth the risk to not broil!
It would seem eminently sensible to wear a nomex suit and flying gloves, helmet etc in every aircraft, but for many that would detract from the experience.
It would seem eminently sensible to wear a nomex suit and flying gloves, helmet etc in every aircraft, but for many that would detract from the experience.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have some first-hand experience of all this as I was the pilot of the force-landed Yak mentioned in Genghis's recent thread about soft helmets.
When I had the engine failure I was lucky that the blown plug core didn't set fire to the ignition harness and fill the cockpit with smoke, or worse, start to burn the aircraft. When I had to force land in a small paddock after noticing power lines obstructing the flightpath into my chosen field, the aircraft hit a fence post which ruptured the port fuel tank. Fortunately, there was no fire.
I was wearing a nomex flying suit and nomex winter jacket, helmet, flying boots and gloves. The helmet certainly saved my life. I didn't realise I had struck my head on the instrument panel coaming hard enough to split the shell in two places. I thought the reason iwas spitting out bits of broken teeth was because my chin had impacted the stick.
The helmet meant that I wasn't knocked out and the neck pad protected me against whiplash. (The main reason I got the helmet was that if I had to bale out and hit the tail, I would have a reasonable chance of remaining conscious.) If everything had gone up in flames, I would have had a few more seconds to get out because I was wearing full protective clothing.
We all think it won't happen to us. But sometimes it does. And, depending on what decisions you make, it may or may not work out as you would like. It makes sense to wear appropriate clothing. OK, maybe a flying suit does look odd in a PA28, but wearing non-synthetic clothing doesn't. Flying boots look OK and offer proper protection and support, which trainers wouldn't in an emergency. Likewise gloves.
Yet look at the adverts for the pilot shops - nylon flying jackets, polycotton flying suits offering some protection against oil but none whatsoever against fire. People buy this stuff specifically for flying, but why isn't it manufactured in suitable materials? And what about those people who wear high-viz clothing in the cockpit? If you have to wear such garments for operational reasons, do so outside!
Flying suits are available in other colours apart from gro-bag green, Black looks quite smart. You don't have to put any patches and badges on if you don't want to and if you don't have the knee pad pockets, it looks relatively unabtrusive.
I know a lot of people don't want to look like airline captains or Red Arrows pilots when they take to the air. But if I hadn't been wearing that sort of kit, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this.
Fly safe.
RD
When I had the engine failure I was lucky that the blown plug core didn't set fire to the ignition harness and fill the cockpit with smoke, or worse, start to burn the aircraft. When I had to force land in a small paddock after noticing power lines obstructing the flightpath into my chosen field, the aircraft hit a fence post which ruptured the port fuel tank. Fortunately, there was no fire.
I was wearing a nomex flying suit and nomex winter jacket, helmet, flying boots and gloves. The helmet certainly saved my life. I didn't realise I had struck my head on the instrument panel coaming hard enough to split the shell in two places. I thought the reason iwas spitting out bits of broken teeth was because my chin had impacted the stick.
The helmet meant that I wasn't knocked out and the neck pad protected me against whiplash. (The main reason I got the helmet was that if I had to bale out and hit the tail, I would have a reasonable chance of remaining conscious.) If everything had gone up in flames, I would have had a few more seconds to get out because I was wearing full protective clothing.
We all think it won't happen to us. But sometimes it does. And, depending on what decisions you make, it may or may not work out as you would like. It makes sense to wear appropriate clothing. OK, maybe a flying suit does look odd in a PA28, but wearing non-synthetic clothing doesn't. Flying boots look OK and offer proper protection and support, which trainers wouldn't in an emergency. Likewise gloves.
Yet look at the adverts for the pilot shops - nylon flying jackets, polycotton flying suits offering some protection against oil but none whatsoever against fire. People buy this stuff specifically for flying, but why isn't it manufactured in suitable materials? And what about those people who wear high-viz clothing in the cockpit? If you have to wear such garments for operational reasons, do so outside!
Flying suits are available in other colours apart from gro-bag green, Black looks quite smart. You don't have to put any patches and badges on if you don't want to and if you don't have the knee pad pockets, it looks relatively unabtrusive.
I know a lot of people don't want to look like airline captains or Red Arrows pilots when they take to the air. But if I hadn't been wearing that sort of kit, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this.
Fly safe.
RD
In my flying instructor days I wore cotton trousers, RAF flying boots and an RAF cold weather flying jacket (not in summer) plus the service issue flying gloves. I suffered the snide looks and occasional gibes for it.
At weekends I flew Grob109b motor gliders for the Air Cadets and that required the full RAF flying kit minus helmet. That was how professionals dressed and was based on many decades of past bitter experience. I couldn't bring myself to fly in polyester and t-shirt during the week teaching PPL's.
I never needed the kit in the end. But you never know.
Its just like people on motorbikes in Jeans and T-Shirt and Helmet. You tend to think - Pillock!
Light aircraft are really not very different in terms of severity or frequency of accident.
Cheers
WWW
At weekends I flew Grob109b motor gliders for the Air Cadets and that required the full RAF flying kit minus helmet. That was how professionals dressed and was based on many decades of past bitter experience. I couldn't bring myself to fly in polyester and t-shirt during the week teaching PPL's.
I never needed the kit in the end. But you never know.
Its just like people on motorbikes in Jeans and T-Shirt and Helmet. You tend to think - Pillock!
Light aircraft are really not very different in terms of severity or frequency of accident.
Cheers
WWW
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,006
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a good thread and since the most of us fly stuff that deliberately routes the fuel through the cabin maybe we should fly with more fire protection. I have had to wear gro bags to fly a couple of times and I think they are comfy warm and generally great.
Anyway my question is, if the uniform the school makes you wear is of the airline variety (poly cotton short sleeve shirt with smart trousers, usually M&S nylon wool mix) what options do you have to wear natural materials and meet the looking like an airline pilot criteria. I know if I look really hard I will find 100% wool trousers that fit the bill.
Does anywhere sell 100% cotton long sleeve airline shirts that you can iron?
Anyway my question is, if the uniform the school makes you wear is of the airline variety (poly cotton short sleeve shirt with smart trousers, usually M&S nylon wool mix) what options do you have to wear natural materials and meet the looking like an airline pilot criteria. I know if I look really hard I will find 100% wool trousers that fit the bill.
Does anywhere sell 100% cotton long sleeve airline shirts that you can iron?
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A further comment which people seemed not to have "cottoned" onto 
It's alright wearing as much flame retardent material as possible, but why then do so many people (It's getting more and more noticeable) spoil it by wearing a High Vis waistcoat over the top that'll nicely melt into you given half the chance.
If you have to wear it airside then so be it - but take it off when you don't!
It's alright wearing as much flame retardent material as possible, but why then do so many people (It's getting more and more noticeable) spoil it by wearing a High Vis waistcoat over the top that'll nicely melt into you given half the chance.
If you have to wear it airside then so be it - but take it off when you don't!
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 31st Jul 2005 at 21:03.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: a galaxy far, far,away...
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow!
I was expecting to get lambasted by folk telling me I was daft. I'm amazed at the amount of support, and here's something else- my wife, an ex-FAA WRN weapons tech, thought about this when I asked her if she would wear a flying-suit for all of ten seconds. She would.
And let's face it; regardless of what anyone says, we would only look daft until
a) the majority of GA pilots are wearing them, or
b) the worst happens, and we emerge through the flames with the whole family intact.
I do have some memories, though, from my blue-suit days of seeing folk I knew to be non-pilots suited up, ray-bans and all, in Tesco. Now that IS sad!
The drawback is that now I'll have to cough up for 3 more suits! Anyone know where I can get some really small ones (age 5 & 2)?
Also, I'm sure there must be a supplier of nongreen ones, but where?
Thank you, guys & gals, for your input. I look forward to seeing more nomex accross E Anglia.
ap
I was expecting to get lambasted by folk telling me I was daft. I'm amazed at the amount of support, and here's something else- my wife, an ex-FAA WRN weapons tech, thought about this when I asked her if she would wear a flying-suit for all of ten seconds. She would.
And let's face it; regardless of what anyone says, we would only look daft until
a) the majority of GA pilots are wearing them, or
b) the worst happens, and we emerge through the flames with the whole family intact.
I do have some memories, though, from my blue-suit days of seeing folk I knew to be non-pilots suited up, ray-bans and all, in Tesco. Now that IS sad!
The drawback is that now I'll have to cough up for 3 more suits! Anyone know where I can get some really small ones (age 5 & 2)?
Also, I'm sure there must be a supplier of nongreen ones, but where?
Thank you, guys & gals, for your input. I look forward to seeing more nomex accross E Anglia.
ap
You used to be able to by the german airforce flying suits which were quite smart, they came in different colours such as green, black or orange etc...but now that I think back I'm not sure if they were the nomex flame retardent type or not.
I also used to fly at weekends teaching cadets and we were all issued with full RAF flying kit, felt bit silly at first but then we all looked the same and it did look smart and offered good protection....mind you it was gliders and they tend not to burn....
I also used to fly at weekends teaching cadets and we were all issued with full RAF flying kit, felt bit silly at first but then we all looked the same and it did look smart and offered good protection....mind you it was gliders and they tend not to burn....
I'matightbastard
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent thread. This has got me thinking.
I fly jumpers occasionally and I have set a personal limit that I won't do it without a parachute. It seems that I should think about what clothing I wear too (though it's about 100 degrees in Texas at the moment
).
I fly jumpers occasionally and I have set a personal limit that I won't do it without a parachute. It seems that I should think about what clothing I wear too (though it's about 100 degrees in Texas at the moment
).
Mess Your Passage
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Temporarily Unaware......
Age: 25
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
b) the worst happens, and we emerge through the flames with the whole family intact.
Try cotton wool dipped in kevlar
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Massachusetts Bay Colony
Age: 57
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wear a nomex flying suit and nomex gloves when fllying the Pitts, but not when flying the Taylorcraft. Why? For a couple of reasons. One has to do with loose articles in the cockpit and no storage in the Pitts. A flying suit has plenty of pockets for everything I need during a flight, and it keeps them all secure. There's also no heater in the Pitts so a flying suit keeps me a little warmer.
But with the flame protection issue, I look at the energy involved. The Pitts comes across the fence at about 90 mph and the fuel tank sits right over your knees. At that speed, I'm more likely to cockup a landing or have an accident with higher energy and possibility of breaking things up. The Taylorcraft comes across the hedge at about 55 mph and finally touches down at around 40 mph. Add any kind of a headwind and you can see it reaches the ground with considerably less energy and is much more forgiving. So I reckon the chances of getting into any real trouble is much more limited. For the same reasons I wear a helmet in the Pitts, not in the Taylorcraft.
As an aside, nomex is inherently flameproof - it's intrinsic in the fabric itself and isn't the result of a treatment of any kind; meaning there's nothing you can do to it (including washing it every day for 10 years) which will make it any less flameproof than the day it was made.
Pitts2112
But with the flame protection issue, I look at the energy involved. The Pitts comes across the fence at about 90 mph and the fuel tank sits right over your knees. At that speed, I'm more likely to cockup a landing or have an accident with higher energy and possibility of breaking things up. The Taylorcraft comes across the hedge at about 55 mph and finally touches down at around 40 mph. Add any kind of a headwind and you can see it reaches the ground with considerably less energy and is much more forgiving. So I reckon the chances of getting into any real trouble is much more limited. For the same reasons I wear a helmet in the Pitts, not in the Taylorcraft.
As an aside, nomex is inherently flameproof - it's intrinsic in the fabric itself and isn't the result of a treatment of any kind; meaning there's nothing you can do to it (including washing it every day for 10 years) which will make it any less flameproof than the day it was made.
Pitts2112
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keep in mind also that Nomex is flameproof but it isn't heatproof. Hence the fact that the air force and co wear those sexy cotton long johns underneath the flying suit. It will give you a few more seconds.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aluminium Persuader, I have one made by Jays Racewear http://www.jaysracewear.co.uk/
dont know the cost but its very nice, made of Nomex 3, black and neatly tailored
What about PPRUNE flight suits anyone!!
dont know the cost but its very nice, made of Nomex 3, black and neatly tailored
What about PPRUNE flight suits anyone!!
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW - I think it is interesting that when we see someone riding a motorbike in jeans and a t- shirt we think "Pillock", yet when we see someone wearing lots of good protective gear to fly an aircraft we tend to think "Pillock" . Something of a double standard.
I think a balance of of nomex shirts and possibly tailored trousers is an excellent idea, and prune ones would be brilliant-at least we could recognise each other at fly-ins!! I'm amazed these arent marketed at the moment, I would have thought flying instructors and the like would lap them up.
I think a balance of of nomex shirts and possibly tailored trousers is an excellent idea, and prune ones would be brilliant-at least we could recognise each other at fly-ins!! I'm amazed these arent marketed at the moment, I would have thought flying instructors and the like would lap them up.
Slightly off topic but while we are on GA safety, I would like to see proper full harnesses fitted to all light aicraft instead of those crap airline passenger lap straps with the inadequate diagonal shoulder strap. Gliders all see to have proper seat restraints so I don't see why light aircraft can't. of course if you own the aircraft then I guess you can get one fitted but club aircraft should have them too.
That together with sensible clothing and fuel guages that work and I'm happy!
YS
That together with sensible clothing and fuel guages that work and I'm happy!
YS