GO to quit DUB??

[ElNino]

A mail I got from Go Mail contained the following excerpts:

"Today Go announces that its launching a new UK base at East Midlands Airport. To help accommodate this expansion, aircraft will need to be re-deployed from Scotland to the Midlands and as a result Go will not be extending its services between Dublin and Scotland beyond 21 March 2002."

This would seem to suggest that services will not rise above the current level provided, however, this follows:

"We came to Dublin to offer low fares on routes where none previously existed. With Ryanair's changes it makes sense for us to shift our capacity and offer low fares in a completely new area. We thank our customers for their support, and our message to travellers to Scotland is: you've got until March to take advantage of Go's spectacularly low fares."

This latter part suggests a total withdrawal from the routes, i.e. after March, if Go's low fares will be unavailable, is it because they are going "high fare" (unlikely methinks and anyway they'd hardly advertise that fact) or are actually withdrawing??

Is this the first major scalp for Ryanair in the low cost wars?

[The Guvnor]

Low fare carriers league division one - Ryanair one; Go nil.

Go are indeed pulling out of Dublin.

[maxalt]

Predatory pricing by Ryanair used to drive out competition.

Sounds just like the good old days.

Ryanair have become the bullies of the business, slipping comfortably into the protectionist practices of the old flag carriers.

If he raises prices in March I hope some punter takes him to the competitions authority.

[gyrohead]

From To-day's Irish Times Breaking News:

Low-cost airline Go to quit Dublin routes For more business news visit [email protected]

By Cathal Hanley Last updated: 13-12-01, 13:11

British low-cost airline Go is to pull out of its routes from Dublin to Glasgow and Edinburgh from March of next year after only six months in operation.

The company has blamed a price war with Ryanair for its decision. Go competes with Ryanair and Aer Lingus on the Glasgow route and with Aer Lingus alone on the Edinburgh route.

Go set up in Dublin in September offering flights to Edinburgh and Glasgow for as little as £45 and expected to carry up to 500,000 passengers on the routes.

There will be no direct impact on jobs here as Go uses ground handling agents Servisair for their operations in Dublin.

The company has not ruled out opening routes from Ireland in the future.


It's a Dog Eat Dog World!! ;)

[schwabn]

What a brilliant victory for Ryanair and thoroughly deserved it is as well!!!

Go were mad to take on Ryanair and they must have known from day 1 that FR would do anything to beat them. What on earth was their marketing team thinking when they suggested to move into DUB?

Well done FR for blowing away a sad attempt of a cheap copy.

[tilii]

Uncle Monty

Do you suggest above that TheflyingIrishman is a 'psycho' or a 'sycophant'? :confused:

The former would certainly be actionable at law unless you can prove a psychopathic personality. The latter is somewhat less problematic in that it merely suggests a personality given to creeping and toadying that may well fit the greater part of today's UK and Irish pilot population. :D :D :D

[irish laddie]

O hail the king of low fares
RYANAIR :D

[schwabn]

It will be good for both FR and Irish tourism once the incapable government realises that FR have come to the rescue of tourism. However, to prove their point they can't afford to develop new routes and have to pervent everyone else from doing so. Their day will come eventually and they'll have their way.

All of you out there slagging off FR should remember that they're the only airline not only talking the talk but also walking the walk, this more than proves my point.

RYANAIR RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ElNino]

The FlyingIrishman: You say Go are a "sad attempt at a cheap copy"

You idiot, this statement does nothing but demonstrate that you have actually flown on neither carrier. Flown with both to EDI and GLA and Go have been cheaper more often than not, the cabin service is better and the aircraft newer and cleaner.
And what the hell do you mean by "they're the only airline not only talking the talk but also walking the walk"?? Do you mean low salaries? If so you're right, but I suspect you don't. I suspect you mean low fares, if so, refer to previous paragraph. So your point is more shattered than proven.
Don't get me wrong, FR are an invaluable asset to the flying public of Ireland (and everywhere they serve), but neither should people blindly worship them. You clearly don't remember the pre FR days if you actually think competition being driven off a route ex-DUB is a good thing. The only people who win here are the airlines, certainly not the public and as your comments clearly state you are not a pilot, it's people like you who will suffer.

[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: ElNino ]

[mens rea]

Flying Irishman, do you really think you are better off or that tourism or whatever is better off with the departure of GO?.

Do you honestly believe that Mick gives a flying u know what about anything other than his bottom line and himself.

Sorry but abusing your dominant position as the largest low fares carrier in Europe to squeeze out another player is not being a "king of low fares"..... it is illegal (very illegal in fact!). Remember BA and Laker.

Predatory pricing is the policy of price cutting by a firm in a dominant market position designed to reduce or eliminate the competition it faces so as to enable the firm to reap higher profits at a later stage following the dimunition in competition which has occured as the result of predation.

Wait until April when Ryanair put their prices back up to where they were at before.

But on a lighter note I was delighted to see Capt Duffy get duly compensated for his unfair dismissal from the same company, he settled his case despite the complete lack of support from his pilot collegues. :D

[dundoniandean]

FlyingIrishman

In what way exactly is it that having less airlines into Dublin from Scotland is good for Irish tourism. Less seats to Dublin (which is bound to lead to higher FR fares from both ends of the routes) sounds like it is only good for FR to me. Do you really think MOL is so ruthless just to help Irish tourism - me thinks not! Ryanair are becoming a bit like BA in the old days - hate the idea of someone getting on well on a route when it 'should' be them. Eventually, someone will throw the FR dummy back in the FR pram and hopefully cause them a bit of FRiggin' harm.

:mad:

[tilii]

irish laddie had it almost right above. What the 'lad' meant to write was: O hail the king of ALL lowness - RYANAIR :rolleyes:

And 'aye' to that! :D :D :D

[Irish Steve]

It would be nice if both the media and people posting here could get their facts correct.

Let's correct some of the errors so far.

1. FR operate to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, they in fact started on the EDI to provide direct competiton to GO, having previously ignored the route.

2. GO are NOT handled by Servisair in Dublin, they are the only passenger customer of Reed, who brought in a lot of equipment to be able to handle the work.

I suspect there may be some more errors to correct, but these are the 2 most apparent at the moment

[dundoniandean]

Mens rea.

Glad to see that great minds etc etc etc

Only three mins between postings

Spooky! :eek:

[schwabn]

ElNino:

You obviously haven't got a clue what you're talking about, why don't you f**k off and accept an FR victory and get your facts straight before making accusations.

1. Yes granted FR fly 737-200's and they may be not quite as nice as Go's -300's but they are reliable aircraft that will get you from A to B.

2. FR will ALWAYS be cheaper as they operate a price guarantee policy which states that in case you do find a cheaper offer, they will match the quote and refund you twice the difference.

3. FR is among the top 3 airlines in Europe and has been profitable for 11 consecutive years. Ryanair haven't manage to lose as much money as Go has in 1 year, over the 16 years the airline has been running.

So here you have the facts and nothing but facts so that means you can take your arguments and stick them where the sun won't shine.

mens rea:

1. O'Leary is a profit orientated businessman that knows how to handle competition. He is not running a charity and can't afford to either! He is interested in Irish tourism but on the terms that he can deliver tourists because none of the other losers are able to.

2. You didn't really expect him to quietly sit back and watch Go eat into what are now his profits. And anyway, supposing FR hadn't entered the EDI market what do you think Go would have done after their promotional offers? Not flying people for free!!!

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

[schwabn]

All I have to say to that is:

TIME WILL TELL

and to all you doubters out there, people used the same arguments against Herb Kelleher and Southwest Airlines and look at their figures, they speak for themselves.

Ryanair will hold that exact same position in Europe in a few years time and Michael O'Leary will lead them there.

[ElNino]

TheFlyingIrishman

You said:
-------------------
1. Yes granted FR fly 737-200's and they may be not quite as nice as Go's -300's but they are reliable aircraft that will get you from A to B.
-------------------

The model of 73 is irrelevant, my point was that the Go aircraft are cleaner inside and that the cabin service is better. The type of engines and avionics of the aircraft matters not a toss to this.

Also said
-------------------
2. FR will ALWAYS be cheaper as they operate a price guarantee policy which states that in case you do find a cheaper offer, they will match the quote and refund you twice the difference.
-------------------

True, but they will find any flight on the same day with a cheaper price and quote that to you. Now this not much use if that flight is not at a convenient time. As I've said before, you clearly have never flown on either carrier thus probably have never searched for prices, so take it from me who has on many occasions, Go can be cheaper on certain flights at comparable times.

And:
---------------
3. FR is among the top 3 airlines in Europe and has been profitable for 11 consecutive years. Ryanair haven't manage to lose as much money as Go has in 1 year, over the 16 years the airline has been running.
---------------

So what you're saying is, because one airline is successful, nobody else need bother trying cos they won't have a clue. By this rationale, Ryanair shouldn't have bothered taking on BA who will make their first loss since privatisation this year. Given that FR lost money hand over fist for the first few years I'd imagine your last statement is incorrect.

Your arguments are vague and hypocritical at best.

I'd like to re-iterate again, I've a lot of respect for Ryanair, its just they're not the be all and the end all. Plenty of other carriers are capable of an equally good job (whilst treating the pilots better!).

[flying scotsman]

A sad loss. In the last three eeks I've bought 3 GO tickets and one Ryanair. Both equally good but the three Go tickets in total were still 50% less than 1 FR ticket.

Not so low cost me thinks.

Best of luck to the Go chaps in their new routes. I just hope the Ryan don't use this victory as an excuse to jack up prices too much ;)

[Captain Rodders]

The time for Ryanair will come when these secondary airports used realise that, to make a profit themselves, they will have to charge a realistic landing/passenger fee.

In addition the European Commission will see these so called "marketing" payments for what they really are - subsidies. EC law requires that subsidies are subject to a tender process.

What then for the FR profit margin? If prices go up, the attraction of using secondary airports will diminish except for those people where the airports is genuinely the most convenient for their requirements.

EZYs spat with Luton should remind budget airlines that they cannot expect the airports to subsidise their operations ad infinitum.

I still think that, should FR put their fares up on EDI/GLA to DUB after GOs withdrawal, there will be a very good court case for predatory pricing This would especially apply for EDI to DUB as MOL has clearly stated in the past that this route was not under consideration due to rapacious fees from BAA, but quickly changed his mind when the upstart airline had the temerity to challenge his monopoly.

Hugo

[DW11]

Can't see Ryanair increasing prices on the EDI route beyond their normal DUB-UK pricing, but would question their commitment to the route, especially rotations per day. Expect threats of withdrawal due to exorbitant BAA charges and all the other ploys we have come to know and love from O'Leary.

Sorry to see Go off the route, but at least their six months on the route has left us with some competition for Aer Lingus, which we would not have had otherwise.

[JRF]

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/finance/2001/1214/fin14.htm

Aer Rianta will ask the Competition Authority to investigate alleged anticompetitive behaviour by Ryanair following the withdrawal of Go from routes between Ireland and Scotland.

[Zulu]

Well I for one will miss flying into DUB, some of the most relaxed ATC in Europe!
"Any speed?"
"No, just stop by the end of the runway..."
But as been pointed out, neither Go nor Ryanair are charities. Whether you want to call it a Ryanair "victory" or "sharp practice" or whatever, the important thing is:
1) Go realising they couldn't continue to compete head to head with FR
2) DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT! And quickly!
3) Moving into EMA - a new huge and relatively untapped market with great potential (see (Go announces East Midlands as next base (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016998))
To my mind this is one of the great strengths of the low-cost environment - the ability to move, and move QUICKLY to rapidly changing market conditions.

[Best Western]

£10 that FR will drop EDI by August

[The Guvnor]

The low cost airports - such as PIK - seem to be doing very well, thank you! (PIK has the highest passenger growth in percentage terms of any UK airport). It's the likes of BAA that are seen as overcharging and greedy - the reason Go's CEO has given for their pullout from the Dublin routes.

From yesterday's Business am:

Go snubs Scottish airports to set up third base in Midlands
by James Ashton
Last update: 09:14, Dec 13, 2001

GO, the lowcosrt airline, is to make East Midlands its third international base - snubbing both Glasgow and Edinburgh airports.

The carrier – which is also to scrap its Dublin to Glasgow and Edinburgh services – claimed landing charges in Scotland were too expensive.

Go chief executive Barbara Cassani said: "BAA"s high landing charges at Edinburgh and Glasgow are not competitive when it comes to developing new international
low-cost routes."

Meanwhile, the decline in passengers passing through the UK's major airports is slowing with low-cost airlines continuing to shine, new figures from BAA have revealed.

The airports operator said 8.1 million passengers passed through its seven UK locations in November, 10.6% down on the same month a year ago.

This is a slight improvement on October's figures when BAA's airports, which include Heathrow and Gatwick, saw a year-on-year fall
of 12%. BAA said Edinburgh, Glasgow and Stansted were again the best performers in November, fuelled by the success of budget
airlines. Passengers volumes at Stansted were up 7.2%, with growth of 8.2% in Edinburgh and 3.3% at Glasgow.

Heathrow and Gatwick continued to be the worst affected by the impact of the September 11 terrorist attacks.

BAA's remaining two regional airports, Aberdeen and Southampton, saw passenger numbers fall 2.9% and 4.3% respectively last month.

The number of passengers passing through Heathrow airport was down 13.5% at 4.3 million, while Gatwick saw a fall of 19.8% to 1.6 million. North Atlantic traffic was off 26.1% although BAA said these routes were “showing signs of improvement”.

The fall in October was 31.3%. Other long haul traffic fell 12.7% in November. BAA said the later school half-term break this year had helped November's total passenger numbers.

It added, however, last year's figures for the month were helped by people choosing to fly domestic air routes due to the chaos on the railways. UK domestic traffic last month was 7.9% lower year-on-year.[/quote]

[Captain Rodders]

Guv

What Babs says about the reason for pulling out of the EDI and GLA to DUB route and the actual reason are two different things.

Note the following and think before you reply:

GO knew the costs before they started operating the routes. If the costs have changed since setting up the routes that is bad planning on their part. Fix you costs to affset the risks!

GO would have done their projections on load factor and yield before starting the route. If these have not been achieved that is bad forecasting, or see next paragraph.

FR moved in to counter GO to DUB with agressive frequecy and especially price.

GO could have implemented EMA in different without sacrificing the Dublin roues if they were living up to expectations.

Possible Conclusions

GO cocked up their forecasts/costs.

FR have diluted the yield/load factor making the roues unprofitable. Would Babs ever admit to being squeezed off the route by Ryanair.

Remember, the problems with EI should have improved the earnings potential as they have trimmed their schedule in the past months.

You cannot blame the BAA costs for pulling off the route. GO especially know the BAA cost structure as they operate from both EDI and GLA to STN, BRS and BFS already and from STN to all over the place.

I would not argue that BAA costs may be the reason for setting up at EMA, but to blame this for the DUB withdrawal is expedient and cannot be true.

Perhaps your name should be Naive Robertson

Hugo

[brabazon]

Hugo

You make some good points. I remember posting when go started promoting the routes, that it was difficult to understand their strategy. One thing that has become clear with the low cost carriers is generally they can create a market when they offer a new service. But to enter a market in direct competition with the oldest and wisest (?) low cost airline in Europe (ie GLA-DUB vs PIK-DUB) and start EDI-DUB, seemed optimistic to say the least. Once Ryanair announced that they were going to start operating why did go continue? In the press they started berating Ryanair and saying that they were offering consumer choice, fair enough, but don't do it at a loss - which is what go have admitted they were and are doing.

You mention forecasts, I would guess that in fact their traffic has been as good as they expected (anyone confirm?) but the yield will possibly have been below expectation - but again that's not surprising when you pitch yourself at the past masters.

I'm not condoning Ryanair's reaction to go's services, but I think it was naievity in the extreme of go to start operating into their backyard. They have been slow to pull out and even now are waiting another 3 months before withdrawing.

If BRS is working well for go, then EMA is likely to be a winner too. The question is how many more mini-low cost hubs can be created in the UK before the market is saturated. Or will any downsizing at BA/BD encourage the low cost carriers to start more services?

[The Guvnor]

Hugo Z - all well and good apart from the fact that I know what FR are paying at PIK and I know what Go are paying at GLA.

Let me make it real easy - FR operate out of PIK, which costs them pennies per pax. They hammered Go's ass, as the Yanks would say.

Go operates out of GLA and pays a factor of 8 per passenger that FR pays at PIK. Other costs (aircraft, crews etc) would be broadly similar.

By using BAA's GLA, Go is operating at a clear financial disadvantage when compared to FR. This obviously is not the case with EDI, where both airlines are forced to endure the BAA's rip-off charges.

Kenny MacAskill, the SNP's new shadow Minister of Transport, has been actively engaged in trying to get the costs of operating through both HIA airports (now there's a rip-off! :rolleyes: )and the BAA airports in Scotland (EDI, GLA and ABZ). Of course, a major part of the cost component is attributable to the high cost of handling as well.

[brabazon]

Guvnor

So if the costs are so high at GLA - why did go start operating. If you're costs are so high to start with and you're competing with the past masters of low fares how do you expect to make a quick (or ever) profit.

As for the level of fees at the Scottish airports - what's the solution nationalise them so they don't make a profit, but the Scottish public will subsidise it through taxes or leave it to the market?

[schwabn]

ElNino:
Just shut up and go home!! I am a regular FR customer and use them for all air travel I do (about 20 flights per year) and have flown on Dublin-Scotland routes. All I can say to you is that the service has always been spot on. Regarding the price guarantee, I think you'll find that FR flight times don't differ massively from Go's.

In the 16 years of operation FR lost IR£ 20,000,000 from 1985 - 1991. Last year alone, Go lost £70,000,000 - just get your facts straight will you!
_____________________________________________

Yes FR fly from PIK for next to nothing but also got a discounted deal from the BAA for EDI, which Go does not have. They wouldn't have started the route without this discount.
Go were incredibly naive trying to enter Ryanair's home turf and got what they deserved.

[mens rea]

FlyingIrishman


1. O'Leary is a profit orientated businessman that knows how to handle competition. He is not running a charity and can't afford to either! He is interested in Irish tourism but on the terms that he can deliver tourists because none of the other losers are able to.


Sure ...not a charity fine...ok.....competition....alright good....

As I said MOL doesn't give a tinker's curse about tourism, or even his own employees (at every level not just the pilots). Ask the cabin crew about their pay cut and having to pay for uniforms etc etc....I could go on ad nauseum but I'd just be repeating what has been done to death here. Now tourism MOL I'm quite sure doesn't even understand, the only thing which rocks his boat is YIELD!. That's fine ...no problem with that except some of the "losers" as you say might have also been able to deliver "tourists" if they were allowed to unhindered by restrictive practices. I think you'll find that this is not quite the end of the matter as it is now being investigated asI understand.


2. You didn't really expect him to quietly sit back and watch Go eat into what are now his profits. And anyway, supposing FR hadn't entered the EDI market what do you think Go would have done after their promotional offers? Not flying people for free!!!



I don't think you have quite grasped what people are telling you on this topic. Nobody has ownership rights of profits "his profits". As to what GO might or mightn't have done after their promotion is just mere conjecture. It is normal practice to have a promotion for new routes. Flying for free is a bit of a gimmick but good for headlines and great if you get a ticket. Don't expext too much in return though. I think you'll find FR pricey enough in April on that route now that Go are exiting. As you said yourself "O'Leary is a profit orientated businessman". You don't make profits giving free tickets away. You will lose out as a result of less choice in the market....I think that is what you need to understand.

[schwabn]

mens rea:

You work for FR do you???? You haven't got a clue what's going on and your knowledge is based on vague rumours you've picked up here and there I think.

[gyrohead]

TheFlyingIrishman:: You seem to be an angry chappie. Have you been drinking???
:confused:

[schwabn]

No I haven't been drinking and I'm not really an "angry chappie" as you put it but it winds me up how everyone keeps slagging off FR when they have just demonstrated what competition is all about

[outofsynch]

Its no wonder FR get a constant slagging with people like theflyingirishman waving their flag.
He is in lala land suggesting Go lost 70 million quid last year. they made a profit!
He is a tosser!

[autobrake3]

GO made a profit of £4.9 million last year, their third of operation. We're all in this game together so lets behave accordingly.

[JMCPilit]

Me thinks that the Flyin oirishman should get himself a pilots licence in Prague and send his fifty quid into Ryanair and apply for a job there, unless as it sounds, he already is a pilot at FR!
Only an employee of FR could be so supportive of MOL and the airline he has created.
Pay for uniform, clean the planes, taxi at 50kts, 15 second walkarounds, bring your own lunch, 6 or more sector days, cancel Ryanair Xmas party cos it costs too much, clean airplanes again go home get up and do it again for the next five days. I dreamed of doing all the above when I romantically looked at the PanAm 747's sitting at their respective gates.
Now MOLs crews have brought aviation to a level where it is no wonder that crews are not respected. Whats the point at working someplace like FR? I can see the point in flying FR but working for them!!!!
Anyway, I digress. Flying Oirishman likes FR and more power to him. I really think that he outta get that Prague pilots licence and go work dere with dose FR peeple seeing as he likes dem so much!

[ALTSEL]

U3K - much respect, Good to see somebody saying it how it is! MOL will spin in sooner or later.

[schwabn]

I would just like to say that this is a free world and as such everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I won't say any more about the subject apart from congratulate FR for a well deserved victory and a future of low fares throughout Europe.

Any Go staff that will be looking for a job in a couple of years when Go will have gone bust, you'd jump at the chance of working for FR, just remember my words and time will tell.

[JMCPilit]

Lets see Flyin Oirishman..... I came across an FR before start landing parking driving home checklist:
Its a challenge and response but can be completed by the pilot who is either awake, not busy putting out a fire, tearing out log pages or applying for other jobs:
"Sweeping brush" "check"
"Dust pan" "check"
"Stay awake pills" "check"
"Extra strength haemoride cream" "check"
"Mothers bank card" "check"
"Jam sandwiches" "check"
"Pint of milk" "check"
"MOL is the best cassette" "check"
"I will fly for food sign" "check"
"MEL and CDL items" "discarded"
"Brakes" "not installed"
"Passengers" "sitting and standing"
"Self esteem" "not required"
"Cranky haughty FAs" "hired"
"Licence" "applied for"
"Walkaround" "aircraft got here"

"Before having the blessed opportunity to work with such a fine carrier and will gladly do whatever I can to help MOL amass as much money as he possibly can without and due regard for me or any other employee checklist complete"

[maxalt]

:D :D Har haaaar...Spot on!...Love it!!... :D :D