How much damage to grass?

[tmmorris]

It's a long-standing ambition of mine (and of a colleague, for that matter) to land a plane on the pitches at the school where I work.

There's no problem with the quality of the surface (like a billiard table, grass mown to within a 1/4" of its life!) or the amount of room available, but how much damage would a moderately well-flown landing and take-off do to their beautiful surface, either dry as at present or when wetter? That's likely to be the main objection.

Tim

(edited to add: type could be PA28, C152 or T67 if folks reckon one is less damaging than the others!)

[Monocock]

Damage to grass? NONE

Damage to pocket through lack of insurance cover when you hit the goal posts? LOTS

Without wishing to sound naive, why on earth do you want to take this risk?:confused:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

What risk? he's already said there's plenty of room and the surface is good. It's fun to land aeroplanes in all sorts of unusual places - fields, beaches, gardens etc. - the aeroplane doesn't know it's not landing on an airfield. :O

To attempt to answer the question, assuming the wheels won't sink into the surface (in which case you should wait 'till it dries out before doing it), one landing and one take off should have no noticable effect on the surface.

SSD

[boomerangben]

Somewhere on the Rotorheads forum is a thread about a pilot who was prosecuted for landing on a sports field. The circumstances were different from the intention here, but it shows that there might be someone watching who would be more than willing to dump you in it with the CAA.

[Genghis the Engineer]

None of those are particularly short field machines, can you get a C150?

G

[DubTrub]

get a C150 I disagree, G. A 150 will get in...but not out. (the others just won't get in!)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Somewhere on the Rotorheads forum is a thread about a pilot who was prosecuted for landing on a sports field. The circumstances were different from the intention here, but it shows that there might be someone watching who would be more than willing to dump you in it with the CAA.

If he has the landowner's permisson and is not contravening any ATC restrictions and is flying within the bounds of the ANO, how could he be 'dumped in it with the CAA'?

I don't think we know the TORA or if there are any obstructions on the climbout. If these are favourable, a 152 should not be a problem.

SSD

[Genghis the Engineer]

Fair point, maybe a light 150 with a reasonable wind will get out (as probably will a C152), I'd not even try with any of the others.

I must admit, for something the size of a sports field, I'd rather use a suitably short field microlight - either a 912 engined flexwing, or something like a Savannah or Sky Ranger.

G

[got caught]

Have yer never been to Barton-aircraft land and take off there all the time-and it's like a BOWLING GREEN!

[Halfbaked_Boy]

From the looks of things, as someone above mentioned so long as you attain the landowner's permission there should be no problem.

You may want to check out 'Rule 5' though - as far as I'm aware, the only exceptions to the 500' rule with regards to take-off and landing must be under the circumstances that the manoeuvre is carried out at a 'Government, Authority or Licensed aerodrome'... not a school playing field.

But that's just from what I recollect of Air Law - have a look yourself.

Cheers, Jack.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

You may want to check out 'Rule 5' though - as far as I'm aware, the only exceptions to the 500' rule with regards to take-off and landing must be under the circumstances that the manoeuvre is carried out at a 'Government, Authority or Licensed aerodrome'... not a school playing field.

That would preclude most private strips and many beaches. :\

I'm assuming 'sports field' isn't your average football pitch (if nit is, he'll need a helicopter). I've taken off from Hough End playing fields in Manchester in a 172 - but that is quite a big area of land and was an airfield a long time ago (but it may have been bigger back then).

SSD

[FlyingForFun]

There are exemptions from most low-flying rules when landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice.

The exception is the 1000' rule over built up areas (the 1500' as it used to be) - there is no exemption from this except at Government or licensed aerodromes. So if your approach and depature can be carried out without passing overhead a built up area, it should be no problem.

All the discussions about whether a particular type would or would not make it in and out of the field are meaningless without knowing how big the field is. Certainly my old school playing fields would have been big enough - several rugby pitches, back to back, are bigger than many grass runways once the posts are removed.

FFF
--------------

[Flyin'Dutch']

Somewhere on the Rotorheads forum is a thread about a pilot who was prosecuted for landing on a sports field.

ISTR that he was prosecuted for landing in the carpark NOT the sports field.

Damage to field non if the field is not too wet.

If the field, permission etc is all pukka have fun. Make sure not to attract adverse attention. Not worth the headache.

You may want to check out 'Rule 5' though

You can come closer to objects etc than 500ft for take off and landing as is custom for normal aviation practice.

[AlanM]

The Banbury Helicopter Case was landing at a rugby club which the guy owns!

Irrespective of performance considerations, I would want to cover my butt legally.

i.e. As it is a sports pitch, you would probably be best advised to ensure someone on the ground has sorted out control of entry etc to the landing area as you operate in and out.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are several bits to Rule 5, it's probably best to read it carefully.

The 500ft rule is relaxed when taking off or landing.

The 1000ft rule (previously known as 1500ft rule) / not-over-built-up-areas rule can be relaxed for T/O and Landing at a government or licenced aerodrome. Whether it applies, or is relaxed, depends upon the class of individual aircraft.

Hence, I suspect, the slight confusion.

[BRL]

When you decide to do it don't forget to inform the police/fire/ambulance people as there will be more than a few calls I suspect, to them, shortly after.............

[Monocock]

Shaggy Sheep -

I am fully aware of how fun it is to land away from airfields. I rarely land at airfields!

My point is that in this litigious world that we live in, the chances are very high that someone will not see the enjoyable side of it and make the poor chap's life hell. I sincerely hope it goes without a hitch but there is a lot to lose if something gets damaged or there are any BA pilots living nearby (they're the worst for whinging....)

If I was going to do it (and I have!) I would get written permission from the owner (council if it's a state school or trustees if it's a public school) and make sure you have it handy (and I did!)

Make sure someone is on the ground warding off dog walkers, joggers and those people who hang around half dressed in the outdoors at this time of year with their hands up each other's clothes.

Good luck

P.S The choise of a/c concerns me somewhat. Is the PA28 a slab winged 180 or a Charger? If not please be careful....

[stiknruda]

The question was how much damage to the grass not about the sensibility of the action:


I have a grass strip, the only damage is done IF

the strip is soggy wet and mini-furrows are ploughed

OR

the strip is dry and max braking can cause wheel lock up and ensuing scorching, tearing out of the grass.


If the grass is a couple of inches long it does retard the aircraft more than 1/4" (?) but this works in both arrival and departure!

Hope that helps.

[Blinkz]

OR you could go gliding over it and not find any lift and have to land in the field :ok:

[Unwell_Raptor]

If I were you I would send a PM to Flying Lawyer, who knows about these things.

[Monocock]

OK

Maybe my last post did sound a bit "nagging" and off subject but I would hate to see a "Rich private pilot kills pensioner in daredevil stunt" headline!!

[tmmorris]

Gosh, what a lot of people worried about my safety/legality/insurance!

To set your minds at rest (a) there is no question of my doing it if the insurance won't cover it; (b) the space in question is (without measuring) at least 800m x 400m, possibly larger, and the largest app/dep obstacle would be trees; (c) as it would be done with the landowner's permission and the school is not in a built-up area (not even nearly) there should be no problems with rule 5. I've certainly landed in smaller spaces and on much less well-tended grass. And I wouldn't do it in the rugby season - the posts are the highest in the country apart from Twickenham, apparently, but they are taken down from January to September.

Anyway, thanks to those who answered the question - reassuring. I'll let you know if I actually do it.

Tim

(PS it's been interesting to be on the receiving end of the worried PPrune instant reaction 'oh, you can't do that, it's illegal/dangerous...' when that wasn't the point of the question!)

(PPS Monocock - it's a slab-winged PA28-180 and I'd almost certainly do it one-up and with modest fuel, as it's only 15 minutes flying time from my home airfield.)

[Wide-Body]

Hi

If you are sure you have the bases covered then go for it. Just make sure that you have listened to some of the good advice here. Esp on the condition of the grass. If you have not flown from grass then have a play at a grass airfield (Waltham is not far from Oxfordshire).

If the field is well drained and the grass is in good condition then you will do no damage to the grass other than 3 PA 28 size tyre marks.

Pardon me for making an assumption, but because you asked the question in the first place I take it you have little grass runway experience. Please get a hold of the performance safety leaflet on performance and do your sums.

After that please post the photos and have FUN. I have done something similar in a PA-18 a long time ago when I was young and immortal (Stupid).

Hey Monocock perhaps some of the BA pilots whinge at some of the things they see because they are VERY experienced in aviation (This is not an invitation to slag off BA please). Some of my colleagues are hugely experienced GA pilots.

Fly safe and regards to all

Wide

[Monocock]

Tongue in cheek Wide!!

It wasn't meant to be personal at all.

Hope you're well

M

[Wide-Body]

None was taken at all.

Lets meet soon and asses the damage we can do to the european wine lake. :E

All the best

Wide

[Genghis the Engineer]

(PS it's been interesting to be on the receiving end of the worried PPrune instant reaction 'oh, you can't do that, it's illegal/dangerous...' when that wasn't the point of the question!)

The trick is to include in the initial post "BTW, I've already addressed runway length, rule 5, and whether I'll upset the neighbours or not" -tends to head things off a bit.

As to the grass, virtually no damage at-all so long as it's reasonably dry. Probably some tiretracks that'll be visible for a few days only - particularly if there's a decent proportion of clover in the grass, which most playing fields should have.

G

[tmmorris]

particularly if there's a decent proportion of clover in the grass, which most playing fields should have

You must be joking! You evidently haven't seen the army of staff and the arsenal of chemicals used to maintain a 100% grass surface. Trust me, it's better than most bowling greens...

It's that kind of school. Imagine acres and acres of perfectly flat, perfectly mown grass, and you can see why I want to put an aircraft onto it. Particularly as they've just built a new pavilion which is the spitting image of a control tower (indeed the pupils are already calling it that... not that I've been encouraging them!)

Tim

(to those who are worried - yes, I've flown from grass - see my thread about Weybourne for example!)

[QDMQDMQDM]

JFDI! If it's dry the grass will be OK.

So many people on this forum appear to be afraid of their own shadows that it makes you wonder how they cross the road, let alone step into an aircraft.

I grew up and have lived in Switzerland, which is known as the land of regulation, but you get given a lot more rope to hang yourself with there than in the UK these days. This is turning into a very anxious little country.

Let's have a bit more adventurous spirit and encourage this kind of thing, rather than huddle in the corner, cravenly wringing our hands.

QDM

[Brooklands]

Tim,

I think I know the school you're talking about, begins with the letter R, and they used to (and may still do) hold firework concerts there in summer. From what I remember the grouds are pretty extensive.

If you tell me when you're planning to do it I may decide to come and watch.

Good Luck

Brooklands

[Ultralights]

whats wrong with picking a nice spot to land for the fun of it ??

http://home.exetel.com.au/pamuva/FLYING!!!/GA%20flying/locations23.jpg

http://home.exetel.com.au/pamuva/FLYING!!!/GA%20flying/locations24.jpg